How To Deliver Difficult News Without Creating Instant Workplace Anxiety

1. 0:00 – 0:41

   How Jefferson Fisher’s upbringing shaped his calm, Socratic communication style

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      If I had to design in a lab an environment to create somebody like you, I would-- I said, "Why don't we raise him in a family of attorneys whose father practice, practices-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:14

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker0:14

      ... the Socratic method, who is very intentional in communication and tone, and a mother who believes in kindness and generosity, and let's raise him in the South."

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:25

      Right. [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker0:26

      You know? It's like, and then there you are-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:28

      Yes

   7. SPSpeaker0:29

      ... just out of a factory. Like what else could have happened to create such a person? Now, I see you as a person who is not only practicing the Socratic process, but as a stoic.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:40

      Mm-hmm.

2. 0:41 – 2:06

   Mindfulness, spirituality, and therapy: what keeps a communicator centered

   1. SPSpeaker0:41

      Um, I, I, I have to ask, 'cause people ask this of me often, is do you practice some form of mindfulness? Do you meditate? Do you do any of the woo or any of those things that help-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:52

      Mm-hmm

   3. SPSpeaker0:52

      ... keep you centered?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:54

      Yeah. I, I, I'm not as consistent with the meditation, but yeah, like I have a-- I've certainly meditated, certainly in prayer. Um, I think there is... You always have to have a, a sense of a greater purpose, a greater calling, uh, and, and, and understanding to me, in my opinion, there's very much a spiritual world. Um, and that gives me a, a certain mindset and a sense of purpose. So there's certainly that. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm nowhere perfect. I def- I, I go to therapy. I certainly have my share of, um, arguments. Um, but yeah, I, I would definitely say that there is a sense of wanting to have mindfulness. It's not a habitual practice, but yeah, it's something definitely I do.

   5. SPSpeaker1:52

      Okay. Um, you mentioned therapy. I've watched a bit of your content, and some of the things that you talk about intended for adults, uh, through the lens of like, "Here's what I've learned as a trial attorney that can help you communicate better"-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:06

      Mm-hmm

3. 2:06 – 4:28

   A parenting conflict and the ‘frame control’ technique from family therapy

   1. SPSpeaker2:06

      ... sounds a lot like therapy. Now, I've o- I've only seen my therapist like a dozen times, a- and it was a family therapist, and she taught me how to deal with a challenge I was having with one of my boys. I have two boys.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

      Mm.

   3. SPSpeaker2:20

      They're not boys anymore. They're adults. But when one of them was, I think [lips smack] he was four, so he skipped the terrible twos. He jumped into the fearsome four or something.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:30

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker2:30

      And he was a, he was a, a, like a handful. He was, he was having like hour-long tantrums-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:37

      Mm

   7. SPSpeaker2:37

      ... screaming at the top of his lungs, slamming the door, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what has happened?" And it's usually pretty peaceful house. And he and my wife would get into some kind of crazy argument, and they would spin each other out of control, and no one's willing to back down, and it was just like, it was heartbreaking for me.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:55

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SPSpeaker2:56

      And I had a li- another little boy who was like two years old, like, "Oh, I don't want you to think this is normal, so I gotta go deal with this." So I go to my boy's room, and he just says the brutish things to me.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:09

       Mm.

   11. SPSpeaker3:10

       He's like, "Get out of here. I don't love you."

   12. JFJefferson Fisher3:14

       Yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker3:14

       And I was like, "Oh, shoot." So I went to see my therapist, of course, her name's Joan, and Joan says, "You know what? Here's what you do, Chris. You go back in that room next time, and you take control of the frame." I'm like, "What do you mean?" She said, "Go in there and say, 'I came in here to check in on you. I see that you're fine, so I'm leaving. If you want to talk to me, I'll be downstairs.'" And I was just sitting there thinking, "There is no way this is going to work. This is impossible. This kid is out of control." And I literally go in there and do that, knock on the door open.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

       Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker3:52

       "I came in to check in on you. I see that you're okay. Uh, I'll be downstairs if you wanna talk." And I leave and I'm like, he's still yelling, crying, screaming, and then like five seconds later goes quiet. I'm like, "Oh my God, what has happened?" And then the door slowly creaks open. He walks downstairs as if nothing has happened-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:12

       [chuckles]

   17. SPSpeaker4:12

       ... and just goes about his thing. I did that twice.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher4:15

       Mm.

   19. SPSpeaker4:15

       It's never happened again. Now, I share that with you because-

   20. JFJefferson Fisher4:19

       Mm

   21. SPSpeaker4:19

       ... I've heard you say this in the car talk, things like this. So please share those ideas, and let's see if there's a parallel here.

4. 4:28 – 8:36

   Courtroom tactics for everyday life—and why unclear talk creates anxiety

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:28

      Yeah. That's, that's interesting to me about the, the therapy thing. You know, I... A lot of mine derives from things that I naturally do when I'm questioning witnesses or in court-

   2. SPSpeaker4:39

      Mm-hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:39

      ... because people often don't wanna give me information. And so I have to find a way to inviting them into that conversation to where it's, it's to their benefit to be honest with me, and I make it natural and comfortable for them to do so. I definitely raised on you get more with honey than you do with, with vinegar. And I have gone to therapy when I-- It was like, that was probably two years ago when I really first started going because of, I started having panic attacks, Chris, of like, I realized that there was a lot of people following me, and I'd never thought about this, and I, what am I doing? And so it was just a lot of eyes on me, and for whatever reason, they would happen at night. [lips smack] Well, you know, what kind of paral- you know, what kind of parallels can we draw from it? That when you put a frame around conversation, you make people feel less anxious. If I come in and I just walk into the room and say, "We need to talk," that's not a statement that makes anybody comfortable. If I, if you texted that to your wife right now and you said-

   4. SPSpeaker5:57

      [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:57

      ... "We need to talk," or better yet, let's say she texted you that We need to talk.

   6. SPSpeaker6:03

      I'm in trouble.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:03

      What are you thinking? You think, "Absolutely, this is the worst. What did I do?" And it will throw you sideways. You can't concentrate, you can't think, you can't do anything until she calms that fear. I mean, she's like, "Oh, nothing. I just needed, you know, you to pick up some groceries from the store," whatever.

   8. SPSpeaker6:23

      [laughs]

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:23

      Yeah. But, but in that moment you're like, "This is the worst possible thing." Um, we will often make people anxious in conversation, including our kids, when we try to make them guess about where we're going or what we're wanting to talk about, where we have to make them... And what we're doing is we're, like, triggering their fight or flight. They don't know, do we have to be worried about it? Do we not? Uh, with people, like say with, um, even people who are neurodivergent, people who are ADHD, they, they have a sense of they need to know right now. Like, there is, I, I will not be able to focus on anything else until we get ahold of, of this issue. So the more clear you are, the better it'll be. What I teach is sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. So when you were talking to your son, for example, just adding a frame, you see how you're not in the conversation with him, you're talking about the conversation with him. That's very different. Um, you're not talking to him directly, so to speak. You're talking about what you're going to do and giving the option for him to be in it or not, but you're laying out your choices and why it's happening. So when you start to find ways to remove the anxiety from conversation, things will go better. It's, uh, like when you have to deliver bad news to somebody, or you need to break up with somebody, and they sit down and you go, "Hey, so we, uh... Look, you've been great, you know?" And instantly they're like, "Why are you talking in past tense? What's, what's happening?"

   10. SPSpeaker8:05

       [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher8:05

       And they think just the worst is... Okay. Then they start spinning in their head of, "Okay, oh, oh my gosh, I thought you were mad at me." You're like, "Oh, no, no, I was just, you know... No, no, nothing's bad, nothing's wrong." It's because we're always on that, we're always in that defensive mode to protect ourselves. And when you provide conversations as a frame for more invitations, and you give them the freedom to opt into it, better things are going to happen rather than just forcing them.

5. 8:36 – 8:47

   The core principle: framing the conversation to remove uncertainty

   1. SPSpeaker8:36

      Okay. It sounds like there's a pattern here I'm seeing. We're, we're gonna zoom out, we're gonna be slightly objective and emotionally detached from the moment. We're gonna describe what's going on-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:47

      Mm-hmm

6. 8:47 – 9:05

   Breakups and bad news: stop the ‘past tense’ preamble that sets off alarms

   1. SPSpeaker8:47

      ... and so that we both can decide if this is something we want to do. That's seeming like the frame. So in the, in the example when you just brought up, I thought you were gonna show us, like, how you break up with somebody. How would you set that up? Because we've all been there before where we've said something-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher9:01

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker9:01

      ... like, "It's not you. Uh, you've been great," and-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher9:04

      Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly

   5. SPSpeaker9:04

      ... you know? Okay. How, how do we do that?

7. 9:05 – 9:46

   Technique: ‘Label the conversation’ + pause to help people brace

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

      Yeah. You label the conversation. Rather than putting them in the fear of, "Wait, wait, what? What's happening? Oh, this doesn't sound good," like their, all of a sudden their sirens are going off.

   2. SPSpeaker9:16

      Right.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher9:16

      Because you, you're leaving them to just twist in the wind is what you're doing, which is a very unkind thing to do. Um, label the conversation. "So that sounds like this is gonna be hard to talk about. This is gonna be a difficult conversation. This is, isn't gonna be fun. This might come as a surprise to you." Anytime you can label that conversation and then give them a pause, wait one to two seconds, it allows

8. 9:46 – 12:57

   How to fire someone without causing instant workplace anxiety

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:46

      them to kind of ready themselves. Because if y- let's say I need to fire you, right? And you come in and I go, "Hey, Chris. How's it going, man? You good? You good? Yeah. Are those new glasses? No, you've... Oh, okay. All right. Have we..." I mean, and you can already sniff, like, what's, what's happening. And then I do this. I go, "So listen," uh, you already know that's, the hammer's dropping right now.

   2. SPSpeaker10:12

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:12

      I finally, I've said, "So listen, we got some, uh-"

   4. SPSpeaker10:15

      Just the so listen, I already know. [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:16

      That's it. We, we know right there it's like all that stuff you said before didn't matter. So you label the conversation so there's no question over, "Hey, what we're about to go through is rough." So if I'm gonna say, "This is gonna be a rough conversation," you know what you're gonna do? You're gonna go like this. You're gonna, "Okay."

   6. SPSpeaker10:37

      Breathe in.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher10:37

      That's what happens every time. Every time they take a breath, they nod and go, "All right." Like, you're kind of readying for it. They're allowing themselves. So if, let's say I need to, to fire you, for example. Instead of this, "Oh, hey, are you g- Hey, listen, we, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, turnover in just the market and, you know, we just, we need to..." It's, that's the worst thing to do. Instead, be very honest, direct. "This is gonna be an uncomfortable conversation." I'll give you a second. You're gonna nod. I'm gonna say, "I need to let you go." Just like that. You're being direct as you can be. Then you can add on the, "I've loved having you here. You've been a great team member." Then you add on the compliments. Then you add on the stuff. Instead of front-loading it and then making it mean nothing, then you can add on the, you know, "I'm looking forward to what you do in your career. It's just not gonna be here. I mean, you, um, if you need me..." And, and now you can provide the support if it's deserved. Now you can be there with them and, and actually have the conversation. But rather than just slowly tearing off the Band-Aid, you, you g- you gotta rip it.

   8. SPSpeaker11:46

      [laughs] Okay. Let me, let me get this straight. I mean, f- letting people go is one of the hardest things you're gonna do as an entrepreneur.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher11:53

      It's terrible. It's terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker11:56

       It really is. And it's the least-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher11:57

       But what I do is exactly what I do, like, in my law firm. I, I've probably had to let s-

   12. SPSpeaker12:01

       Really?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher12:01

       Yeah. I've probably had to let seven people go in the last three years.

   14. SPSpeaker12:05

       Yeah.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher12:05

       Uh, all wonderful people, um, but yeah, you, you gotta have it.

   16. SPSpeaker12:09

       Okay, quick label and then I gotta let you go, and then whatever positive things you wanna say, if appropriate, you say

   17. JFJefferson Fisher12:18

       Exactly. A quick label-

   18. SPSpeaker12:19

       Okay

   19. JFJefferson Fisher12:19

       ... and then, then letting them know, "This is your last day," or, "Friday is your last day at, you know, here with us." Whatever it is, you have to be able to label it. The biggest thing is rather than the slow walk, the small talk, which is not kind and disingenuous because you really don't mean it, you're saying it to make you feel better-

   20. SPSpeaker12:39

       [clears throat] Yeah

   21. JFJefferson Fisher12:40

       ... not to make them feel better, um, is to label the conversation. This is, this is gonna be... It's as easy as, "This is gonna be a difficult talk. This is gonna be a difficult conversation." And they kinda go, "Okay." And like now they're, now they're ready for it. Now they can embrace it.

9. 12:57 – 15:14

   Personalizing the label without prolonging the ‘hammer’

   1. SPSpeaker12:57

      I, I wanna ask this. This is pretty nuanced. I- instead of saying, "This is going to be a difficult or rough conversation," could you say, uh, "This is really tearing me up inside," pause, and then say, "I gotta let you go"?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher13:15

      So I would tweak that a little bit because-

   3. SPSpeaker13:19

      Okay

   4. JFJefferson Fisher13:19

      ... you haven't described what this is.

   5. SPSpeaker13:22

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher13:22

      Um, I... Now we can hit on that same vein and say, "This is a discussion that has been tearing me up the last three days," or, "This is a discussion that I'm not looking forward to." Um, a- any, any of that, you can definitely personalize it if, if it's genuine. You know?

   7. SPSpeaker13:46

      Yes. Mm-hmm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher13:46

      "This is, this is a conversation that truly just makes me sick inside." You're, you're letting them know rather than letting them go and then saying, you know, "Oh, it tears me up, too. I don't like it."

   9. SPSpeaker13:59

      Right.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher13:59

       That... Then you've, then you've lost it. It doesn't matter now.

   11. SPSpeaker14:04

       Do I need a second statement before I say, "I'm gonna let you go," or, "This is your last day"? Or can I say-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher14:09

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker14:10

       ... "This discussion has been tearing me up inside"?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher14:13

       You can. You're just prolonging the, the hammer.

   15. SPSpeaker14:16

       Yeah. Okay.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher14:18

       Um, and so I, I would... You wanna get to the hammer as quick as possible. So if you were to say, "This, this isn't gonna be fun for either one of us," pause, "I need to let you go."

   17. SPSpeaker14:32

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher14:32

       "This is a conversation that it's going to tear me up, but I'm willing to sit with you throughout all of it." I mean, you get what I mean? Like that's-

   19. SPSpeaker14:39

       Yeah

   20. JFJefferson Fisher14:39

       ... as quick as you can get to the hammer, the better.

   21. SPSpeaker14:42

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher14:42

       Because now you're talking productive. Now you're talking resolution. Now you're talking... You, you've already hit the dip, all right? Now it's up to you to talk about the positive of what else, because life is going to continue to go on.

   23. SPSpeaker14:57

       Right.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher14:57

       So rather than us having a... Like why would you have a slow, steadily downfall and then just stay down, right? You wanna have like a little dip and then let's, let's talk about the... 'Cause there's more life. There's more life to live, and you have to remember that.

10. 15:14 – 15:56

    The emotional ‘graph’: quick dip, then rebuild with next steps and respect

    1. SPSpeaker15:14

       Okay. So in the graph of my mind, visually speaking, if we're here-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher15:18

       Mm-hmm

    3. SPSpeaker15:18

       ... and we don't know what's about to happen, and if you just slowly just bleed them to death, that downfall takes forever, and then-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher15:24

       They will remember that longer than anything

    5. SPSpeaker15:26

       ... and then everything you say afterwards feel... It's just a, it's all messed up at this point, right? So it's rather we take them from here, we drop them right down, and then we start to build up.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher15:36

       Exactly.

    7. SPSpeaker15:36

       They're gonna leave away... They're gonna walk away with that feeling like, "Yeah, you know what? It was a tough situation. I'm, I'm really glad my boss really supports me and just I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out the next move in my life."

    8. JFJefferson Fisher15:47

       Yeah. And it... Well, they will... They're not gonna like it then, right?

    9. SPSpeaker15:52

       Okay.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher15:52

        Rarely are they gonna like it then. But later they're gonna say, "At least he was honest with me."

    11. SPSpeaker15:56

        Yeah.

11. 15:56 – 16:47

    Language precision: ‘but’ deletes what came before—use ‘and’ instead

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:56

       "At least he was truthful with me." Rather than the small talk of how wonderful you are, how great you are, and then you're like, "Oh, we gotta... Um, I'm, I'm sorry. It hurts me to say this, you know, and I hate it, but I, I gotta let you go." And it's like, then why were you saying how great I was? But, but, but I thought you said-

    2. SPSpeaker16:15

       Yeah

    3. JFJefferson Fisher16:15

       ... and so then they start to like second-guess, "Oh, y- so everything you said you didn't mean?" Like when you throw in the word but, it deletes everything you said, and that's for anybody listening. Get in the habit of changing your buts to and. You're gonna find that you're gonna talk so much better, I promise. It's like-

    4. SPSpeaker16:34

       Mm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher16:34

       ... y- it, it, it's easy to say like, "I love you," but, uh, you can't... Like it's the same.

    6. SPSpeaker16:40

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher16:40

       You just deleted it.

    8. SPSpeaker16:41

       You did. Right.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher16:41

       Um, so whenever you're delivering that advice, label the conversation.

12. 16:47 – 18:26

    Takeaway for entrepreneurs: clear and direct is kind (and helps you grow)

    1. SPSpeaker16:47

       Okay. I, I wanna say this on behalf of the creative entrepreneurs that are listening. Many of you are still solo practitioners because the idea of firing someone hurts your essence. You can't even do it, so you'll never hire somebody. You, you might have a few freelancers, but you don't do that, but then it real- it's really hard to grow a business when you don't hire people.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher17:08

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker17:08

       And the thing that you're most afraid of is the firing part. So I want you to listen to this part and feel empowered. Like not that you're looking forward to firing people, but you need to hire people, and every once in a while it doesn't work out. So what we've learned here is that the speed in which you say what the hard stuff is kind of important. You need to get to it. You need to use the right tonality, and you need to label it right at the beginning, and you gotta get to it pretty quickly. And just notice how deliberate and intentional the words were, "I have to let you go. There's nothing that gives me joy in saying that." And then if you want to, you can do the positive stuff. So the sequence matters so much. The tone matters. And what you're saying, and it's probably the last thing I, I have time to ask you about, which is being clear and direct is kind.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher17:57

       Yes.

    5. SPSpeaker17:57

       'Cause like you're torturing somebody. They have that sixth sense. They know there's no reason why I'm in your office today. You've never called me in here before.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher18:03

       Yes. You got it.

    7. SPSpeaker18:03

       You've never said 1,000 nice things. I already know what's coming, and, and it's like the lamb. It's like it's freaking out. I'm a- I'm gonna get slaughtered here. But you're just torturing people at this point.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher18:13

       Exactly.

    9. SPSpeaker18:13

       And that's not what you wanna do. Okay.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher18:15

        No.

    11. SPSpeaker18:15

        You've, you've given us a better way forward.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher18:17

        If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there.

Episode duration: 18:26