How to Disarm a Narcissist in Conversation

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Courtroom lessons: why manipulators thrive under pressure

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      As a trial attorney, I have to disarm manipulative people, and in this episode, I'm gonna share with you the number one strategy that works every single time. Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tips to improve your communication, I'm gonna ask you to please subscribe wherever you are listening. Wherever you see it, click subscribe, a like, a heart, whatever. It really helps me, it helps my family, and it helps me continue

2. 0:30 – 1:30

   Sponsor break: Cozy Earth (bamboo sheets and comfort essentials)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      this mission to improve everybody's communication. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I am a big fan of Cozy Earth, long before they sponsor me, because as the name suggests, it's very cozy stuff. I first got the product from a bedsheet that was... Admittedly, I have no shame in saying I... It was new bedsheets, and I was like, "These are some of the best I've ever had," because I'm a... I sleep very hot, and these bamboo sheets were fantastic. And then that was just kind of the gateway. Then it's towels. Then it was hoodies and sweatshirts and sweatpants and regular pants and T-shirts. I'm a big fan of it. If you like premium products that feel good, that feel comfortable this holiday season, you need to go try Cozy Earth. Go to cozyearth.com/jefferson and get up to 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson, and use the code JEFFERSON to get 40% off. Understand that when you're in a courtroom, the dynamics are very different. Everything is pressured. It's like a, a vacuum. You

3. 1:30 – 3:02

   How witnesses manipulate: avoiding truth, betting on vagueness

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:30

      have a judge that's right in front of you. You have a bailiff, a court reporter. You have a jury. You have opposing counsel. You have the other party. You have your client. There's people in the back watching you. Everything is pressured in that moment, and when witnesses are on the stand, it's like a switch gets flipped. Like, they almost forget that there are people watching and that their words really matter, and they, and they become almost like they're in a corner, where they don't want to say the truth without making it a fight. Like, they, they just don't want to. They could give you the truth, but they don't want to because they would rather try to manipulate the system. Have you ever watched a trial on TV? Like, a, a real trial. I'm not talking about one on the movies or anything. I'm talking a real trial. And you might think, "Ah, they're kind of boring," or maybe you've been on a jury and you thought, "Oh, this is kinda cool." In real life, the witnesses know that if they tell the truth, there is a major consequence either way. If they tell the truth, there's a consequence. If they don't tell the truth, they may or may not get out of it. Like, they, they, they don't even... For some reason, I... It blows my mind. There's so many people that I've caught lying on the stand. It's, it's, uh, uh, not even in the deposition where you're not in the courtroom, but actually in the courtroom, uh, just a lie. It's just a lie, and once they do, they think they're gonna get away with it, and it doesn't happen. It backfires, and it could only take one case, one lie that ruins an entire matter for somebody. It ruins the entire case

4. 3:02 – 4:04

   Reframing manipulation: common human behavior, deeper symptom

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:02

      for someone. So, how do you disarm the manipulator? Here are some things I want you to keep in mind. Number one, manipulators need momentum. Disclaimer: everybody manipulates. Whether you know that you're doing it on purpose intentionally, not intentionally, everybody has been that person. I'm not saying it's become their whole identity and you can put a label over that person as they are the manipulator. "Hi, nice to meet you." Yes, there are some people like that, but for the vast majority, it, it is a word that indicates a change in somebody's behavior to try and get somebody to do something different, to control their perception, to control, um, the facade in some way. And I guarantee you, because I've done it, all right? I've been the manipulator. You've been the manipulator. E- everybody has to some extent, and that's like saying nobody lies. Everybody lies. All right? Manipulation is not itself the root cause. It is a symptom of something much deeper, all

5. 4:04 – 4:34

   Rule #1: Manipulators need momentum—stop the rush

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:04

      right? All right. Soapbox over. Number one, manipulators need momentum. The more they can get you in rhythm, the more they can find that grasp of control. Then they kind of get their claws into you. When I am deposing a witness or cross-examining, if I keep up with their momentum, meaning if I'm tracking along and we're s- just talking at a fast pace, I'm much more likely that I'm gonna miss something, because that's what they want you to do. They want

6. 4:34 – 5:34

   Exact language to slow things down and demand specifics

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:34

      you to miss the details. But if I slow it down, everything changes. Manipulators need momentum, so what do I do? I slow that moment... I, I bring it to a halt. That's where I might say, "I'd like to stop right there. I wanna slow down right here. I'd like for us to walk through this, not run." Or I... There's... Uh, the way I say it is, "I'd like for us to stop running for a second and, and just walk." I'm setting the tone of, "Ooh, hold up. Put on the brakes," and watch what happens. Those that are trying to manipulate do not like the slowing down. They don't like the specifics. They'd much rather stay in the abstract. Don't, don't give 'em, don't give 'em the details. They don't want that. They can't do much with that. They need the vague. They need the general. They need fast. They need momentum. So, what do you need to do? First thing I need you to do to, to disarm a manipulator is to slow

7. 5:34 – 6:35

   Rule #2: Use short, neutral phrases—don’t feed the fire

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:34

      it down. Stop their momentum. All right? Number two: short, neutral phrases. I use short, neutral phrases in cross-examination, meaning if I'm not having to ask a question and I'm responding to something that they said, I'm not gonna give them things that they can continue to build on. When you're talking to somebody who's showing narcissistic tendencies or manipulative tendencies, you don't wanna give them tinder for the fire. Whenever you use phrases Uh, like, "Well, I guess if you want. I mean, I guess if that's what you think. I mean, sure, I guess, whatever." It... If you start saying things that are passive-aggressive, if you start s- saying things like, "Oh, mm-hmm, okay. That's great. Good for you," things that you know they're not going to like 'cause you're saying it with a tone, maybe you're being, um, trying to be cute with it, you know, smart with it, you're trying to

8. 6:35 – 7:37

   Examples: ‘Noted’ and nonverbals that create conversational friction

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:35

      jab them with it, mm, that, that's gonna just... You're giving tinder for a vroom. You're just... You're throwing it into a fire is what you're doing. You, you're causing a, a major fire. Instead of that, pouring gasoline, short, neutral phrases. Here's what I mean. You're gonna say something like, "Noted. Got it. Appreciate it. Good to know. Thank you." Or you know what I also like doing? Non-verbals. That means I give it an old, "Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm." I'm not even saying words, but yet I'm communicating, and the biggest thing that I'm doing in that moment is showing them I'm giving you nothing to grab onto. There's nothing that you can grab and run with and try and distract me, and try and push me in some way and direction that I'm not going. So short, neutral phrases,

9. 7:37 – 8:37

   Sponsor break: Monarch (money management and budgeting reset)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:37

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10. 8:37 – 11:12

    Rule #3: The disarming phrase—‘I’m not getting pulled into that’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher8:37

       all-in-one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code JEFFERSON at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code JEFFERSON. And now back to the episode. And number three, I wanna give you a phrase that is going to change the way you think about people trying to manipulate you. Think of a drain, a swirling drain maybe in your bathtub or your sink, and as that water gets pulled in, what happens? It gets faster and faster and faster, and it gets sucked in. Well, we've already discussed in rule number one we're gonna slow it down, meaning we're not gonna continue to speed up and go down the vortex. Two, we're gonna make sure that we use short, neutral phrases that, again, aren't gonna speed up the vortex. The phrase I want you to remember is, "I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm, I'm not getting pulled into that." I'm gonna say it again. "I'm not getting pulled into that." I'm gonna say it again for you. "I'm not getting pulled into that." I want that to, to sear into your mind for a second. When I've used this, mostly in depositions, I am signaling, making it very clear. I usually save it for a last resort. Anytime I've done it, it is necessary for me to be able to tell that person, "Where you think I'm going ain't happening." It's the same way of saying, "I'm not going there. I'm not going there. I'm not going there with you. I'm not getting pulled into that." It's... The, the reason why I like not getting pulled into this is because it creates imagery of you're trying to draw me away from what I know. You're trying to draw me away from my truth of what the facts show, what the evidence shows. It's the same way of saying, "I'm not going there with you. If you wanna go, that's fine. I'm not." I'm not getting pulled into that has imagery of the drain, has imagery of somebody trying to pull you with a rope. When I use the verb pull, I am highlighting, "I can see what you're trying to do. You're trying to lead me astray. I'm not doing that." Every time I've

11. 11:12 – 11:42

    What to expect: strong backlash means it’s working

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:12

       used that, I get a reaction that is, be prepared, strong. Strong, because they're mad about it. They're frustrated. And if they have a very high overreaction to that phrase, "I'm not getting pulled into that," it is very indicative that what they're trying to do is not working, and that's a good sign to me, and

12. 11:42 – 13:44

    Use direction-and-control language to stay anchored in facts and values

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:42

       that's a good sign to you. It should just be r- red alarms to you flashing and going off of, "Okay, I called it. The trap that they set is not working, and now they're just mad. They're mad that I, I set it off without stepping into it." It's a, it's a point in your life where you realize, "Nope, I'm not going there. I'm not getting pulled into that. I'm not stepping into this. I'm not walking into that." Use words of direction anytime you feel like somebody's trying to control you. Use words of control. Use words of direction You're walking, pushing, pulling, stepping, moving. Yeah, these are action words of somebody trying to move you off your place. So when I can use those words, I'm cueing that. I'm saying, "I can tell you're trying to move me, control me, push me somewhere that would serve you and not serve me, and it's gonna be off the facts, off my memory, off of my truth." Do you hear the difference? Rather than getting worked up and going wherever they wanna go, and going off that rabbit trail, and getting, uh, upset, and finding that 10 minutes from now I'm... they have me exactly where they want me talking about something else. But if I were to sit back to something that they said and I go, "I'm not getting pulled into that." Do you know what that does? It is a s- it is such a power move to be able to have that sense of confidence of going, "I know exactly where I am, and I'm not moving." When you come to a place in your life where you have to deal with a m- manipulator, and most likely you already have, and again, understanding, acknowledging, disclaiming that yes, everybody can be the manipulator. I can be the manipulator. Everybody can. All right? When it gets to that point in life where that's gonna happen, you have options, and

13. 13:44 – 14:49

    Wrap-up: three-part toolkit and encouragement to practice

    1. JFJefferson Fisher13:44

       when you use these options that I'm teaching you of how to d- disarm that type of maneuver, what I teach you works based on legal, my legal experience in the courtroom and what I've seen with countless people in some of the worst circumstances. When you can slow it down, stop their momentum, when you can use words that they can't make anything with, can't do anything with, and three, you indicate to them that you are not somebody that's gonna be moved off your mark, off your spot, off of what you know to be you as a person, as your character, as your integrity, as your values, as what you know to be yours. It's a different feeling, and you're gonna have a sense of clarity that you did not know was possible. All right? Whatever it is and whatever you are about to be doing or whatever you're going through, I'm proud of you. All right? This episode's gonna help. You can try that and follow me.

Episode duration: 14:50