How To Enter and Exit a Conversation without Being Rude | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 2:01

   Avoiding unwanted conversations: be uninteresting, acknowledge, and set a boundary

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      If you want to avoid an unwanted conversation, number one, don't fight them. Because the more that you do, the more you're gonna find yourself in one. Instead, just let it go by. You do that by making yourself sound, well, disinteresting. This is what I mean. When somebody's pushing an opinion onto you, any controversial topic, whether it's religion, politics, whatever, they're trying to push something onto you, and you say, "Yeah, I don't know." Simple as that. "Yeah, I don't know." Or, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure about that." You're finding ways to communicate to them of, if you're looking for a fight, you're not gonna find one here. Number two, this one is the easiest, but it's the most critical. You are making them feel heard. It's just simply acknowledging their point, and it's very simple to do. This is what it sounds like: "I agree that's an issue," period. Somebody's wanting to get all worked up, and they're telling something to you. All you need to respond is, "Yeah, I, I agree that's an issue. I agree that's an issue." You're not saying whether you agree with it or disagree with it. If anything, they just feel acknowledged and heard, and g- they say to themselves, "Oh, okay. They understood and heard what I said." And number three, if you need to be a little bit more direct, you need to tell them that you're not interested in this conversation. If they're not getting the point, here's the way I suggest to do that. You say, "I typically avoid this topic." The key word is typically. "Yeah, I typically avoid this topic," or, "I typically, uh, try not to talk about X, Y, and Z." The key here is when you say typically, you're communicating of, "I've had this conversation before. It's not really stimulating to me anymore, so I just, um, avoid this topic altogether." You're not saying that they're wrong. You're not giving them a fight. You're not giving them anything for them to bare their teeth on. You're just sim- simply saying, "I tend to avoid this. I typically don't do this." And I'm gonna give you a disclaimer on this episode, particularly when it comes to political topics. I'm all in favor

2. 2:01 – 5:03

   When political talk is discussion vs. competition—and why not every argument deserves you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:01

      of educating yourself and making sure that you know about the issues out there. I think you should absolutely ex- exercise your right to vote, no questions asked. That's a different question on whether or not somebody is allowed to force their opinion onto you and say whether they're right or wrong, or if you're supposed to push your opinion back and always have these discussions where you know it's just beating your head against a wall. If this person is open-minded, and it's a discussion that you enjoy having... And people have political discussions all the time, and there's no issues, but other people, it's not so much about change. They don't care about the change. They care about the competition. It's like a sport to them. It's like arguing over their favorite sports team. Who's going to win? Who's going to lose? Day to day, w- the ultimate consequence of the discussion, who wins, makes no bearing, no change on their life. It's just something that they feel like a team on, so they wanna have this discussion, uh, of intellect to intellect or just issue to issue, and they just wanna talk it out. All kinds of different reasons why these kinda topics should or may come up in your life. The key is, how do you balance them? The reason why I have number one be to pass it by is because it's that idea of don't attend every argument you're invited to. Just because somebody pushes their opinion onto you to talk about any controversial topic does not mean that it's an invitation for you to mandatorily give your opinion right back. Whenever you decide, "You know what? I wanna push against you. Actually, I don't agree with that," you can disagree all you want. Just know you're walking right into the conversation. It's no longer an unwanted conversation. It is a desired conversation now that you're giving your opinion. If you want to avoid these, then you need to just let them pass by. I say disinterested or be disinteresting because in many ways you're taking all the oxygen out of the room, and their fire can't burn. They have nothing to get upset about because you're not giving them anything to jump onto. You're finding ways to say, "You know what? I don't know about that. You know what? Huh, that's a good question. I'm really not sure. I'm not sure." It's not that you're, that you don't have your own opinion. It's not that you're uneducated. It's just you're not in a mood to say, "I don't wanna get in this conversation right now." And there's nothing wrong with that. When it comes to agreeing with them, understand nobody can make you agree to something you don't want to agree to. Nobody can force you to say something you don't want to say. But it's critical that these kinda people, when they're pushing these unwanted conversations, just feel heard. Often, if they just feel acknowledged in some way, they're going to go away. Not only have you made yourself disinteresting, they know they're not gonna get anywhere with this. They know that you're not gonna give them that fight and that excitement that they're looking for. They just want to feel acknowledged. So when you can say things like we mentioned in number two of, "I agree that's an issue.

3. 5:03 – 6:34

   Stronger boundaries when hints fail: situational limits and a firm ‘I’m not going there’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:03

      I hear you," simple as that. "I hear you. I agree that's an issue. I agree." That's all you have to say. Even if you disagree with them, you're just making them feel heard. But if they continue to push and press, uh, on you to make you feel uncomfortable in some certain way, don't hesitate for one second to say, "I prefer" or "I typically." You're talking about what you do in the past. "I prefer not to talk about X, Y, and Z. Uh, I typically try to avoid topics about blah, blah, blah." You can make it even situational. Uh, "I, I typically avoid topic X at dinner or at home or at work." You make it situational, where you are in your environment. Simple as that. And if they continue to press the button, it's absolutely okay to say, "I'm not going there," period. "I'm not going there." You're saying, "I'm not going into this conversation. I've given you plenty of lead-ups. I've given you signs that I'm not interested in this. That, that means I have to be explicit with you. I'm not interested in this conversation." I typically don't enjoy talking about topics of X, Y, and Z. This subject matter isn't for me. That subject isn't for me." You find ways to, if they're not gonna be taking the signs, be very direct with them to say, "I have a boundary here. I'm not gonna be goaded into this. I'm not gonna be led into this conversation. I'm not going there." Now we're at the part that's one of my favorite parts, and that is I'm going to answer a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my weekly

4. 6:34 – 12:06

   Listener question: dealing with a boss who pushes gossip/politics at work

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:34

      newsletter, I send one email once a week right to your inbox on a communication tip, and those that are on the newsletter can email me questions, and I'm able to answer it here on the podcast. So I have my, my other phone here, and this one that I picked is from Sammy. Sammy is in Florida. He says, "Hey, Jefferson, uh, love your tips. I have an issue with work. There is a boss that I have who always likes to talk about whether it's gossip or politics. Whatever it is, he's always wanting my input on it, and I'd rather not give it. It's not that I don't have an opinions. I'm just not that much of a social person, and it makes me uncomfortable. Love to hear your thoughts on this." Sammy, I feel you, man. So any time... Let me give you a, an example of what's this making me think of in, in my own mind, my own, my own world, is I'd have these conversations with my grandfather. I'd go up every summer to see him, and it never failed. And this happened definitely in the last five, 10 years or so, where I'd start to come talk to him, and every time, he'd turn the conversation to politics or some issue that I did not want to talk about. It's not that he... I mean, he and I agreed on some things. We also disagreed on some things, but that's all he ever wanted to talk about. It just kind of consumed his mindset. This is what I'm gonna encourage you to do, Sammy. Often, the issue that you hear is not the real issue. All right? It's not the political issue that they wanna talk about or that, um, let's say maybe he's oversharing or there's gossip, there's something else. It's not that. It's an underlying layer. I'm gonna continue on with my grandfather example. My grandfather was the ty- is the type that, you know, he doesn't see a whole lot of people day to day, and so whenever I'm coming around and I'm giving him my full attention, I might be the first person he's really been able to talk to that day, and he wants to get out everything that's on his mind. There's also that element of he kind of wants to... You know, there's people out there who want to feel impressive with their knowledge, regardless of what side of the fence anything is on. It doesn't mean it's political, not political or religious or any other controversial topic. They just want to share that they're knowledgeable about a given topic. So I'll, I'm going to encourage you to look behind the issue. Why does he continue to come to you with this, this boss or manager, Sammy? Why does he continue to come to you with this? Is it that he's just looking for other conversation with you? Maybe it's he just wants to have some kind of interaction with somebody, especially if it varies. If it's always the same issue every single time, that's a little bit different, but if he always comes to you with something different, that might be a suggestion that, well, he's just wanting to interact with somebody. Like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, some people, it's not about who's right, who's wrong. It's just the competition. It's like a, it's a hobby for some people to find out, hey, can we just kind of feel alive for a second if we get up and angry about things, even though nothing in our world's going to change? So when that happens and you feel like you need to set some boundaries in this discussion, I would, number one, I'd encourage you to continue to indicate to him that you're not going to give him any kind of fight. You're not gonna be on his side or against his side. You're just gonna be disinterested. You're gonna be disinteresting by saying things like, "You know, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure about that," or, "Man, if I had an opinion, I'd give one. Simple as that. I don't know enough about it." Or it's, "Hey, I agree this is an issue. Yeah, I agree. That's, that's definitely an issue." You're simply just acknowledging something that they said, or if you need to be really, really, um, clear that this is not something you're interested in and you don't like this, it's okay to say, "I'd prefer not to, to discuss this kind of stuff at work." Simple as that. You have to do things that sound authentic and genuine to you. What you can't do is start to engage. If you start to engage or you, you begin to just eng- agree and be a yes man, uh, to everything and go, "Yep, you're exactly right. You're exactly right," then he's gonna continue to come to you with things. But if you continually show that you're not gonna be that much fun, you're not gonna be his person, or you just find that these aren't the kind of topics that he's gonna get with somewhere, if you were able to say, "You know, I'd rather talk about you," that was the key of how I kind of had to fix my grandfather and our conversations. I had to tell him anytime he got into this rut, this continuous repeat of a hamster wheel conversation, I'd say, "You know, I'd, I'd much rather hear about you." That was it. "I'd, I'd rather hear about how you're doing." Nobody gets mad, Sammy. Nobody gets upset if you want to move the conversation about them. Nobody's like, "Oh, h- no, I don't want to talk about that." Everybody likes to talk about themselves. So when you just kindly say, genuinely say, "I'd rather hear about you. How's everything going? Work good? How's, how's everything?" It shifts the mindset, and they're not gonna be like, "Oh, you, you changed the topic." Everybody likes talking about themselves, uh, especially if it's genuine, this, s- this social connection that you're creating. So that's the way I'd handle that, Sammy. Best of luck.

5. 12:06 – 14:50

   Exiting conversations gracefully: looping, past tense, and polite closure signals

   1. SPSpeaker12:06

      What about exiting a conversation? I'm, I'm not good at it. Uh...

   2. JFJefferson Fisher12:11

      Not good at it?

   3. SPSpeaker12:12

      Well, socially, I, socially Uh, I'm regularly telling a friend or my wife, like, "Don't leave me alone too long," 'cause I don't know how... I don't, I don't... I, I have built s- several skills communication-wise, but one of them is not, like, we've sort of tapped out this conversation. We've maxed this one out. Let's, let's exit gracefully. So whether that's on the phone or in person, the only thing I've ever stumbled into is starting to speak in the past tense, but I'd like to know your strategy on that if you do that as well. But, like, what do you do? You know what I'm talking about? Everyone's been there.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher12:47

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker12:47

      They're at a cocktail party, and you get bumped into this wonderful person. You're eight minutes in. You're like, "I'm gonna be here all night if I can't somehow rotate out of here."

   6. JFJefferson Fisher12:55

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker12:56

      How do you do it?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher12:57

      [laughs] Uh, well, you can just do what we do in the South. I think we just slap our thigh and go, "Well-"

   9. SPSpeaker13:03

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher13:03

       "... yeah, it was good s- you know? Better get, better get moving. All right."

   11. SPSpeaker13:09

       [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher13:09

       Um, no. It's, um... A, a real easy trick that, um, I like to teach is that you just loop it. So whatever you began talking about at the beginning, so let's say it's family or work, whatever it is, typically something very surface level like that.

   13. SPSpeaker13:24

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher13:24

       You just loop it there at the end. So if you started talking about family, that means you're gonna end with, "Well, I'm glad to hear the family's doing well. I'll, you know, I'll, I'll see you around," or, um, "Look forward to catching up later. Have a good evening." Whatever it is, you just kind of close the loop of whatever you first started talking about. There are some people that also, um, like a method of, of acting like you're the one kind of inconveniencing their time. When you're like, "All right. I'll let you get back to it," you know? "All right. Well, I know you're busy." Um, that cuts both ways. Sometimes if it sounds really disingenuous, if it's like, "What do you mean? I don't have anything going on. It's just me and you in the corner here," you know? [laughs]

   15. SPSpeaker14:04

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher14:05

       Um, so you kind of have to feel that out I, I feel like. But for the most-

   17. SPSpeaker14:09

       Do you ever use the past tense, like, "I gotta tell you, I've enjoyed this so much. It's been so good to see you"?

   18. JFJefferson Fisher14:14

       Yeah.

   19. SPSpeaker14:14

       Do you do that?

   20. JFJefferson Fisher14:15

       Yeah.

   21. SPSpeaker14:15

       I mean, a- and be sincere about it, but it allows, by past tense phraseology, at least for me-

   22. JFJefferson Fisher14:21

       Mm

   23. SPSpeaker14:21

       ... if they are actually listening, which maybe they're not, they go, "Oh, we're at the end of this conversation, not in the middle of it anymore."

   24. JFJefferson Fisher14:29

       Yeah. Whenever you can say, "It was," or, "It's been"-

   25. SPSpeaker14:32

       Right

   26. JFJefferson Fisher14:32

       ... anytime you can use past phrases, uh, that is, it's just saying, "Hey, uh, this is our signal that the conversation has now ended. [laughs] We are now-"

   27. SPSpeaker14:41

       Yes

   28. JFJefferson Fisher14:41

       "... talking about it as it's now happened in the past. I'll see you when I see you." Yeah, definitely, definitely, uh, that's, that's a great way to do it.

6. 14:50 – 16:32

   Boundaries and invitations: say ‘no’ early to avoid mental ‘rent’

   1. SPSpeaker14:50

      The last section of rule number two in your book is about boundaries.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher14:55

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker14:57

      What do you mean by boundaries in this context? And, and also, could you explain to me this, this image here? Do you know that image? I'll put it on the screen for anybody to see it.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher15:05

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is all about how to say no, especially let's put it in a context of somebody invited you to, uh, anything. Let's say somebody invited you to grab a cup of coffee.

   5. SPSpeaker15:17

      Yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher15:17

      All right? Let's put it in terms of that's what this, this graph is. So the graph says when you have the chance to say no or yes to something and you decide not to say no, instead you go, "Oh, maybe," and then it just lives in your head for the next, you know, week until they ask again. You're like, "Ah, I just put it off." But if you say no when you need to say no, then it doesn't live in your head rent free. So let's, let's put it in terms of, let's say you and I, uh, work at the same place.

   7. SPSpeaker15:43

      Yeah.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher15:43

      And I ask you for, "Hey, uh, Steven, let's go, wanna go grab a, a cup of coffee at this new place that I saw?" And you don't... You're like, "Look." You're thinking in your head, and you're like, "Look, Jefferson, you're nice, you know, but you're not, we're not friend friends. We're, we're just work guys. You know, I like you at work, but you're not that cool. Like, let's, I don't wanna go have coffee with you." That's what you're thinking in your head. And besides, you're so busy, you got too many things to do, uh, and you need to say no. And instead you go, "Oh, oh man, um, you know, maybe, maybe I, I... It, it just depends. I'll, I'll, uh, let you know." And like, "Oh, okay." And then I'm waiting the whole day to hear from you, and now in your head you're like, "How do I tell him I don't wanna do this? How do I tell him?" And now you're just thinking about it, and you're just wasting your emotional energy, and it just... Instead of saying no when you needed to say no.

7. 16:32 – 21:39

   No fake excuses, no people-pleasing: start with ‘I can’t’ then add gratitude

   1. SPSpeaker16:32

      But what if I come up with an excuse? I say, "I, I just checked. I've got a meeting, Jefferson, so I can't come for a coffee."

   2. JFJefferson Fisher16:36

      Well, if that's real.

   3. SPSpeaker16:37

      But if it's not real.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher16:38

      Yeah. Well, that's a problem.

   5. SPSpeaker16:39

      Why is it a problem?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher16:40

      Well, because, one, there's always a chance that they could find out. Two, it's just not genuine. It's not, it's not sincere. You, you owe it to yourself to, to be a truth teller.

   7. SPSpeaker16:48

      But we, we don't want to offend somebody.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher16:52

      Yeah. That's the people pleasing, right?

   9. SPSpeaker16:54

      Yeah. So, like, someone says to me, "Hey, Steve, I know you're in Austin." But, I mean, this actually happens. "Hey, Steve, I know you're in Austin. Um, would be great to, to get a coffee with you while you're in town-"

   10. JFJefferson Fisher17:03

       Right

   11. SPSpeaker17:04

       "... um, on Monday." And I look at my calendar and I go, "Well, I am free on Monday, but I just don't [laughs] wanna go."

   12. JFJefferson Fisher17:09

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker17:09

       So d- what do I say to them? I just go, "Uh, listen, I..." [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher17:12

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   15. SPSpeaker17:14

       No.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher17:14

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   17. SPSpeaker17:16

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher17:16

       Actually, no. Uh, no, I don't.

   19. SPSpeaker17:18

       Yeah. [laughs]

   20. JFJefferson Fisher17:18

       Um, no, thanks. Pass. Hard pass.

   21. SPSpeaker17:21

       Yeah.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher17:21

       So here's where the mistake happens, all right? Is when it's that feeling of I don't wanna disappoint them.

   23. SPSpeaker17:27

       Yeah.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher17:27

       I don't want them to not like me. That's what we want. That's what really it is. I don't want them to not like me. I still want them to like me. The mistake happens when you go, "Oh, man, that sounds so great and, and wonderful. I love to, but I can't. I have a, a full day of, uh, meetings." Um, and that's, that's all you leave it at right there. Okay? Problem with that, aside from it just being not true, whatever. To put it as, "Hey, man, I'd love to, but..." All right? The word but has a magic of erasing everything that happened before it. If I were like, "Look, I love you, but..." Blah, and I have to say something else. "Oh, I think it was great. Yeah, I, I mean, I think being on your podcast was, was wonderful, um, but, uh..." Like, it just takes away, it feels less than what you said. So instead- Starting with the gra- like, we wanna start with the gratitude. "Oh, thank you so much. That sounds wonderful. I can't." That's what we wanted is, like, that soft landing. Uh, reverse it. Start with the no, then end, uh, with the gratitude. So it would be if somebody said, "Hey, can you come to dinner, whatever, on... I know you're in Austin." "I can't. Thank you so much for inviting me. I, I, I'd, I'd love to meet you or see you the, the next time around." And if you can, add some kindness. "I've heard that place is awesome. Hope it's a great time." Like, uh, same thing if, if you need to tell me no to having coffee. "I can't," or, "I have bad news. I can't. Let me know how it goes. Like, I, I'm sure it's gonna be great. I've heard wonderful things about it. Let me know how it is." Like, it's much easier if you tell them that you can't upfront. Have you ever had somebody tell you no to an invitation and they're like, in a, in a text they're going, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I have been, I've just been so busy, and you know, I've had to go feed my cat, and it's just been so stressful lately. And I'm, uh, I might be able to go. I'll let you know if I can. And if anything changes, I'll definitely let you know." Like, you're like, if, if you just, if you don't wanna go, just tell me no.

   25. SPSpeaker19:32

       Yeah.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher19:32

       And it's that kind of feeling.

   27. SPSpeaker19:34

       We don't know the wo- we don't have the words, though. This is the problem.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher19:37

       Yeah.

   29. SPSpeaker19:37

       And I was reflecting over, over, um, New Years. I was at a restaurant and I was reading this book about, I think it was called The Courage to Be Disliked, and it was just developing my thinking on just trying to be a bit more sort of radically can- give more radical candor to situations.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher19:50

       Yeah.
8. 21:39 – 23:53

   No reason required: avoiding justification spirals and apology overuse

   1. SPSpeaker21:39

      And you don't even need to give them a reason.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher21:41

      No reason. No, no, no. That's where you make a mistake, is when you give them a reason, you start to have to feel like you have to justify.

   3. SPSpeaker21:47

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher21:47

      Because you start, you're very subjective. We're all subjective in our head of, "Ah, that's not a good enough excuse. I have to give something that is worthy enough of the excuse that I'm not gonna be able to make it." And then that's where the anxiety kicks in, and that's where we just push it off.

   5. SPSpeaker22:01

      What if the excuse is real? So I've been invited to this dinner in London. I actually can't go.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher22:06

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker22:06

      But it's a very, someone that I care about a lot. Um, I can't go because of my calendar, and I haven't responded to the email yet.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher22:12

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker22:12

      Um, I think in part 'cause I'm, like, trying to figure out how to let them... Even though my-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher22:16

       You see how it's taking up your energy even now?

   11. SPSpeaker22:18

       It is taking up my fucking energy, yes. [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher22:19

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker22:20

       So I, in that situation, I should say... I, I was gonna say terribly sorry.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher22:27

       Yeah. No, no, no.

   15. SPSpeaker22:28

       Okay. I can't make it on this occasion because I'm in the Middle East. Um, but thank you for the invitation.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher22:37

       Yes.

   17. SPSpeaker22:37

       And if this ever pops up again, please do let me know. I'd love to come.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher22:42

       Yeah.

   19. SPSpeaker22:42

       'Cause all of that is true.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher22:43

       Yeah. There it is.

   21. SPSpeaker22:44

       Okay.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher22:45

       I think that's perfect. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Because I'm in the Middle East." It's when, it's when it's more like that bar scenario, when you don't have anywhere else to go, you-

   23. SPSpeaker22:52

       Saying it

   24. JFJefferson Fisher22:52

       ... don't want to.

   25. SPSpeaker22:53

       Okay.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher22:53

       Uh-

   27. SPSpeaker22:53

       And don't say terribly sorry.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher22:55

       Uh-uh. No, no, no.

   29. SPSpeaker22:56

       Why?

   30. JFJefferson Fisher22:56

       Yeah, because there's nothing to apologize for. You haven't done anything wrong. Save your apologies for when you said something you should not have done. You've made an actual mistake.
9. 23:53 – 25:28

   Standing up for yourself: choose your battles and use silence strategically

   1. SPSpeaker23:53

      How do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher23:57

      The biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. There's a lot of people that you... If you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are gonna get tired. Like, you just, some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't.

   3. SPSpeaker24:16

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher24:16

      There are some people that if you really feel like a, an injustice... Like for me, a driving principle is justice. If I feel like something is-

   5. SPSpeaker24:24

      Mm

   6. JFJefferson Fisher24:24

      ... unjust, I'm much more Um, I guess it's unjust f- then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, "No, no, this is not... This isn't cool. That's not fair."

   7. SPSpeaker24:35

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher24:35

      "This isn't equal. Th- you don't talk... You don't treat people that way." But if you, if you're the, the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen-

   9. SPSpeaker24:48

      Mm-hmm

   10. JFJefferson Fisher24:48

       ... nearly as much. It's, it's the walk quietly with a, a big stick-

   11. SPSpeaker24:52

       Mm

   12. JFJefferson Fisher24:52

       ... kind of mentality. I mean, when, when you wanna stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I, I can, I can choose to say nothing, and a lot of the times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're gonna say something ugly to me, and then I just let it hang, oh, it's, it's one of the most powerful things you can do-

   13. SPSpeaker25:16

       Mm

   14. JFJefferson Fisher25:16

       ... is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me.

   15. SPSpeaker25:22

       Mm.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher25:22

       And then they just don't do it as much.

   17. SPSpeaker25:24

       Mm.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher25:24

       You sh- you're telling them it's not gonna be fun for you if you go down this road with me.

10. 25:28 – 31:09

    Where his communication style comes from: trial work, framing, and cross-examination lessons

    1. SPSpeaker25:28

       Interesting. Where did you learn that?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher25:31

       A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book I talk about my... I'm the oldest of four.

    3. SPSpeaker25:37

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher25:37

       I'm a fifth generation trial attorney, so I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood where... A g- a wonderful childhood where I'd get pick up from school, like get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of four, had a lot of experience just resolving conflict. Uh, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister, and then my two younger brothers, and then a lot of it is, um, you'd think it was law school, but it's not.

    5. SPSpeaker26:09

       Mm.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher26:09

       You have trials, but it's... Trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's, let's say you're my witness, and let's say you're oppos- you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's gonna be ready to jump in and object to every question I have.

    7. SPSpeaker26:33

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher26:34

       You have a judge that's gonna rule on the evidence of if my question passes. You have a bailiff, court reporter, and then there's probably 12 people, if we're in district court in the state of Texas, that are going to all be listening to everything that I do, and it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it.

    9. SPSpeaker26:51

       Mm.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher26:51

        So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're gonna think, "Oh, that's bad for his case." If I, if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad, like, "Oh, that's not true," they're gonna know, "Oh, this is actually bad for his case."

    11. SPSpeaker27:11

        Mm.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher27:11

        It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it, there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing.

    13. SPSpeaker27:23

        Wow. So it s- trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher27:27

        Oh, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play the hands that you're dealt.

    15. SPSpeaker27:31

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher27:31

        So let's put it at that. Um, you know, I can't, I can't choose better facts.

    17. SPSpeaker27:35

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher27:35

        I can't choose the law that I'm wanting to use. And the same way, it's not really winning.

    19. SPSpeaker27:40

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher27:41

        I m- you might have a better hand than me-

    21. SPSpeaker27:43

        Mm-hmm

    22. JFJefferson Fisher27:43

        ... but it's just how I play it.

    23. SPSpeaker27:44

        Yeah.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher27:45

        Mm-hmm.

    25. SPSpeaker27:45

        And can I give it away or not?

    26. JFJefferson Fisher27:47

        Yeah.

    27. SPSpeaker27:47

        It's fascinating.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher27:48

        Well, and the thing is people think that trial is this whole a gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows everybody's facts before you go in.

    29. SPSpeaker27:55

        Mm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher27:55

        None of it's a surprise.
11. 31:09 – 45:17

    Silence, breath, and regulation: pause as a tool (not weapon)

    1. SPSpeaker31:09

       Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher31:13

       Right.

    3. SPSpeaker31:14

       Why?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher31:16

       It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, it- silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It, it, the first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations, you use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

    5. SPSpeaker32:32

       Yeah.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher32:32

       And in that silence, holding that with, the, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

    7. SPSpeaker32:43

       Yeah.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher32:44

       Now let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Um, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

    9. SPSpeaker33:05

       Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher33:08

        You can weaponize it.

    11. SPSpeaker33:09

        Uh-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher33:10

        Yeah. So you could... Uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

    13. SPSpeaker33:13

        Yeah

    14. JFJefferson Fisher33:13

        ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to... I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox- toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you please come back to me?" will they, you know-

    15. SPSpeaker33:43

        Mm-hmm

    16. JFJefferson Fisher33:43

        ... graciously in their mercy go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

    17. SPSpeaker33:54

        Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher34:02

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SPSpeaker34:02

        Before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

    20. JFJefferson Fisher34:05

        Right

    21. SPSpeaker34:05

        ... you're saying t- that first word is your breath.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher34:08

        Right.

    23. SPSpeaker34:08

        Okay? So your, what, is that an inhale?

    24. JFJefferson Fisher34:11

        Yeah, so it's, um, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

    25. SPSpeaker34:17

        Yeah

    26. JFJefferson Fisher34:17

        ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. And I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, what my five-year-old would do of like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

    27. SPSpeaker34:33

        Yeah

    28. JFJefferson Fisher34:33

        ... [laughs] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently, any time right before you say something that you need to catch a moment, or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you're, it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You, our bodies go , like, we, we, everything we don't like it, we kinda start to-

    29. SPSpeaker34:57

        Yeah

    30. JFJefferson Fisher34:57

        ... seize up. We start, we take a big breath. We're like, "Okay, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.
12. 45:17 – 57:20

    Three communication truths: don’t win arguments, learn vs. prove, and see beyond the surface

    1. JFJefferson Fisher45:17

       Three things that I want you to know that are going to change the way you communicate. Are you listening? Are you ready? Number one, never win an argument. Whenever your goal is to win an argument, you lose so much more every time. And it gets me frustrated, tell you the truth, of how much I see out in the world, videos to blogs to books and magazines and articles on how to win every argument. Let me tell you right now, it is a lie. It's snake oil. It's clickbait. It is... It's not true. It's, has nothing to do with real world. That's why it does not work. When you've ever seen, like, uh, "Why am I not winning this argument?" Because the idea of winning it does not work. It never has. It never will. People like to say, "Well, Jefferson, aren't you an attorney? Isn't this kind of your day job? You're, this is what you do for a living. You win arguments." Absolutely not. No. That's, that's not how it works. As a trial attorney, any trial attorney who is in the courtroom, you do not choose your client's facts. When a client walks into my door and they have, "Hey, I've been in an accident, and here are my facts," I can't create new facts that will help my case, and I can't get rid of facts or delete facts that hurt my case. I am stuck with the cards that are dealt. Same thing applies with the law. I can't choose. I'm here in Texas. I can't choose what laws I'm gonna follow or not going to follow. They apply to everyone here in this state. Same if the federal level or any state in the US. I can't choose any of that. And so when it comes to arguing as an attorney, it's more about giving the facts and evidence a voice. How can I persuade you based upon my facts and what I have in the law? And then it's ultimately up to the, the finder of fact, is how they call it. You have the judge or you have the jury, and it's gonna be, those are the people who decide what's persuasive and what's not, and are they following the law. At the end of the day, they have to follow the law. Has nothing to do about who's winning an argument. The other attorney might have better facts. The other attorney might have better law. Has nothing to do with me winning it. So it's not even the same thing in the courtroom or as an attorney. You cannot win every argument. When you do, when you set out to say, "I wanna win this argument," you will lose the relationship with this person. It may not be the first time. It may not be the second time. But over time and time and time again, the r- value and quality of that relationship is going to continue to go down. Here's what I mean. When you and I are fighting and we're trying to win an argument, what I've really won is your contempt. You, you're now mad at me most likely. I've, I've won your, uh, ability to have awkward silence now every time we pass each other in the hall. I still have to probably work with this person, probably have to live with this person. What have you, what have you won? You've really probably won the first chance. You're f- now the first person up to have to apologize. Often we win arguments because we said something that was over the top, went too far, below the belt, anything that made the argument stop. Just because you're the last one who speaks does not mean that you're the one who won the argument. It is just not true. So every time you try to see yourself as winning an argument, you're going to lose the relationship. You're gonna lose their respect. You're going to lose their trust, their confidence, and over time, you're going to lose the ability to connect with that person when you always set out to win an argument. So instead of winning an argument, this is what I want you to do. See the argument as something to unravel. See the argument as something to unravel, a- as in a knot. You have one side, I have the other, and when I'm pulling and we're pulling, it just makes the knot tighter and tighter. It doesn't go anywhere. Instead of seeing who's gonna win this tug of war, you have to stop, put it down, and find a way to locate the knot, and when you do, that's where you have the heart of the matter, where you can start to unravel and say, "I'm trying to understand where you're coming from." They're trying to understand where you're coming from. Then you can talk. Then you can connect with the person. It is not winning an argument that is going to change the way you communicate. It is seeing the way that you can unravel the knot. I, I really hope that resonates with you. It's one of the main pillars that I use every day in my communication and how I see things between two people and how we connect with each other. Don't look to win the argument. You want to look to unravel the knot. You just have to be patient enough. Truth number two: have something to learn, not something to prove. Now, this goes beautifully with the first point of never win in an argument. Number two says, have something to learn, not something to prove. Struggle happens, difficulty happens, bad things happen in communication when I'm trying to prove something against you. But here's the, the, the fact of it. The harder I work to push against you, the harder I push to prove my point, the more hardened you'll become that I'm wrong. Because it... What you don't know is that behind everybody, as we're gonna talk here in the third step, is there is a surface and a depth behind everybody. So if I were to say, "You're wrong. Hey, you listening right now? You're wrong. Whatever opinion you have, I'm gonna say that it's wrong." But what I don't know is when I tell you that you're wrong, I could also be saying that your family member is wrong, your grandparent is wrong, y- what you've known your whole life is wrong. We all come into circumstances with different life experiences. So if you've been raised, maybe let's say in a particular religion your entire life, or you've heard, um, only a certain political party your entire life, these are big concepts I'm talking about here. Or maybe you're, you grew up in an area that is culturally a certain way and somebody says that that's wrong, what you're doing is just changing their whole paradigm of saying everything about you is wrong. And we will get so defensive, even to the point of refusing to listen, to be able to preserve that identity that the other person has. They will fight tooth and nail. It doesn't matter. That, that's why logic does not work in these circumstances. Logic doesn't work because it is a, a part of their identity. It is their value in their life of this is who I am. If you're saying that I'm wrong, well, th- that means my dad's wrong, my mom's wrong, my grandparents are wrong, and it, it ties to a whole lot more. When somebody likes, let's say a, a s- a political candidate, it doesn't matter what party, and you say that they're wrong, well, you get... A lot of people that are fans of certain people get very defensive because they've tied their identity to that person. You have to understand that you c- come into it with something to learn, not something to prove in that conversation. I get really worked up about these truths because they hit so much at home for me. Like these, l- the points that I give, they're little quick, rapid things. I'm always gonna be giving you those. I want to start season two a little bit different. That does not mean I'm gonna continue to, to do the bigger concepts. I always give practical takeaways, and I'm gonna give that to you here, is I want you to, to get used to this mindset of when you see struggle, when there's friction in the communication, ask yourself, "Am I trying to prove something or am I trying to learn something?" Here's a, a depiction of this, an illustration I want you to have in your mind. If I'm arguing with you, I cannot pour... Let's say I have a glass of, of water. I cannot pour water into your full pitcher. I, I can't pour new thoughts into a, into a pitcher that's already full. I have to let you get it all out. I have to ask you questions and get curious of, "Well, how long have you, you know, uh... How'd you come to that conclusion? How long have you thought like this? How, how..." Things that you're getting information out of the other person rather than just trying to splash the water in their face and saying, "Take this," and whatever, "Everything I say is right." Instead, you need to ask questions that get it all out, and only then is there space for you to fill it with your new thoughts. Have something to learn, not something to prove. Truth number three. This is one of my favorites. The person you see is not the person you're talking to. The person you see is not the person you're talking to. Like we said in s- in step two, everybody has a surface and a depth. The person who's serving you coffee at the café, maybe they served it a little late. Maybe they had a little bit of attitude. That's the person you see. But the person you're talking to maybe should have been off two hours ago or just got a terribly rude comment from a customer an hour before and now it's weighing on them. Or maybe, uh, their kids are staying with their mom and they're in a bad mood because they don't like where they are in life. There's always a surface and a depth. Uh, people that you're driving behind... Like this is for me, right? I'm talking to myself. When you're driving in the, in the left lane and somebody's in the left lane... Here in the United States, you have the right lane, left lane. Our default is typically in the, the right lane through, uh, single lane passing traffic. But it's two lanes. Left lane is for passing, the right lane is for those that go slow. [laughs] So anytime you wanna... Somebody's going slow in the left lane, ugh, it irritates me to, to no end, but I'm working on that. See, I can work on things, too. Well, anytime you're going slow behind a car that's probably going the speed limit, let's be honest, you just automatically assume they are in your way. Get out of my way. How dare you be in my way? You don't know what in the world's going on with their life. You don't know what kind of news this person is dealing with. Same way when somebody's coming up behind you, like what we call, um, on, on your rear. When they are right up behind you, you think, "I... What do you want? What do you want from me?" And you get aggravated that they're trying to speed you up. So it just goes all into this thing of we like to think about ourselves. It's our, it's our default. It's, it's natural. I want you to see that the person you see is not the person you're talking to. So you have to get really curious about understanding that everybody has something going on that you don't know about. People you're related to, they have struggles they don't share with you. Your kids, there are things that are happening in their life that they may not share with you. Same thing with your work. You have a supervisor, an employee. There are things going in their life that you don't know. They're having conversations in their head that you aren't part of. If... For those that have been in relationships or are in one right now, you've all experienced this, a concept where somebody comes into the house, the room, the apartment, whatever, and you can just tell they're in a bad mood, and it's not until 20 minutes into the conversation, you're like, "Is something wrong with you?" Well, it turns out what happened to them happened six hours before, and they've been living with that w- long before they came in contact with you. So things happen that you have no idea about. So when you go into this thing of exactly who I see with this person is exactly who they are, and you go into stereotypes and you say, "Oh, I'm gonna call a spade a spade," that's fine. Do what you need to do. Understand that's not the real person. I've seen some of the toughest people, meanest looking people be the biggest teddy bears and sweethearts. I've also seen the smallest, may say oldest, weakest, uh, people be the sturdiest, strongest, uh, humans I've ever come across. You cannot judge a book by its cover.

13. 57:20 – 1:07:03

    Workplace communication playbook: gossip, passive-aggressive emails, credit stealing, micromanagers

    1. SPSpeaker57:20

       What is your overall approach to communicating with coworkers?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher57:24

       I find that people who you're working with, they're not your family, as much as you want them to be, and sometimes they're your person in the, in the storm. Like, you can get really-

    3. SPSpeaker57:38

       It's like in Severance, right? Have you been watching Severance?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher57:39

       I have not.

    5. SPSpeaker57:40

       Oh, okay.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher57:40

       But-

    7. SPSpeaker57:40

       It's good.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher57:41

       Is it? Okay.

    9. SPSpeaker57:42

       Well, I mean, yeah, it's dark-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher57:43

        Oh

    11. SPSpeaker57:43

        ... but it's okay.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher57:44

        Okay. Oh, all right.

    13. SPSpeaker57:45

        [laughs]

    14. JFJefferson Fisher57:45

        I'm learning a lot-

    15. SPSpeaker57:46

        [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher57:46

        ... just about this etiquette life.

    17. SPSpeaker57:48

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher57:49

        Um, it's the same thing with any difficult conversation. Whenever you have two people that are going through a common goal, they get closer. When you have a lot... You talk about the same thing, you communicate about the same thing, you are working towards a common objective, you typically talk bad about the same people.

    19. SPSpeaker58:05

        Yeah.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher58:05

        Right?

    21. SPSpeaker58:05

        Your boss. Yeah.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher58:06

        Yeah, you talk bad. "Can you believe this?" Something like-

    23. SPSpeaker58:08

        Yep

    24. JFJefferson Fisher58:08

        ... and you're like, can you s- "Did you see what she's wearing?"

    25. SPSpeaker58:10

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher58:11

        Like, you... Yeah, it's like, "Oh, this coffee is really bad in here." You find ways of communicating with the person-

    27. SPSpeaker58:16

        Yeah

    28. JFJefferson Fisher58:16

        ... whether it's by complaining.

    29. SPSpeaker58:18

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher58:18

        Complaining is often a very... Or gossiping about people is a very-
14. 1:07:03 – 1:20:18

    Winning people over: warmth, pacing, concise speech, and vulnerability that disarms

    1. SPSpeaker1:07:03

       Let's move on to strangers and the art of winning people over. There's the age-old question: Is it better to be liked or to be respected?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:11

       Oh.

    3. SPSpeaker1:07:12

       What's your take?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:13

       Better to be liked Because the person who is liked will naturally get more respect. Uh, and it lasts, it lasts a lot longer. The people who like you are people who want to do things with you, for you, uh, together. It's... I find that if you can make people want to be around you, then you're going to get more people who want to do things willingly rather than out of fear.

    5. SPSpeaker1:07:41

       I agree with you, except maybe in a work setting, right? Because when you have strong relationships and goodwill, people are motivated to work for you. But if you come across as competent, then, like, if, when people respect you for your competence, like, I feel that is also a very lasting influence. I mean, you hear about, like, bosses who are just terrible human beings, but people, everybody wants to work for them.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:04

       And then nobody's, nobody's-

    7. SPSpeaker1:08:06

       Nobody's sad-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:06

       ... sad when they die.

    9. SPSpeaker1:08:07

       Yeah, that's true

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:08

        I mean, like, uh, that's like-

    11. SPSpeaker1:08:08

        That's true

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:09

        ... I mean, what, what kind of legacy [laughs] do you wanna leave? Like, and I think there's a difference, too, of somebody who's competent and they're resilient and all these under- other wonderful things that you can absolutely be respected.

    13. SPSpeaker1:08:21

        And you can-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:21

        I can be liked and be respected.

    15. SPSpeaker1:08:22

        You absolutely, I mean, the, the ideal is to be both. So if we wanna be liked, in terms of first impressions, how do we gain instant trust?

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:31

        One would be smile a lot, more than you think.

    17. SPSpeaker1:08:33

        I always say that, eye contact and smile.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:35

        Yeah. Eye contact and smile. And for people who have trouble with eye contact, a little trick is to end your sentences looking at their eyes rather than feeling like you have to stare at their eyes the whole entire time. Two is pace your conversation, so slow it down. What you're wanting to do is make it very calm and easy for them to be around you and wanna listen to you. So I like to compare it to listening to different types of music. So again, 'cause remember the music thing.

    19. SPSpeaker1:09:05

        Yeah, yeah.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:05

        So think of the people you like to be around and apply a song to their personality.

    21. SPSpeaker1:09:11

        Wow, this is getting-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:12

        Or a band

    23. SPSpeaker1:09:12

        ... like very technical. Okay

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:13

        ... like a band to their personality.

    25. SPSpeaker1:09:14

        Apply a song. Okay.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:15

        Yeah. There's some people who are like, make you anxious because everything that they do is, like, a high-energy rock music where it's just always crazy. There are other people who are like easy listening, where it's a lot slower, where you go, "Oh, I kinda like... I could put this on and listen to it all day." Like, there are just different types of wavelengths and frequencies that we just enjoy hearing.

    27. SPSpeaker1:09:37

        Yeah.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:37

        So if you wanna... Uh, it's like those same per- type of people that you go, "Uh, they just feel really warm."

    29. SPSpeaker1:09:42

        Yes.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:43

        How do you, how do you explain that to people that just feel warm?
15. 1:20:18 – 1:29:33

    The power of the pause for connection: ‘let your breath be the first word’

    1. SPSpeaker1:20:18

       Mm. One thing that you, uh, seem so masterful at that I feel like I need to work on more is, is this idea of pausing-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:29

       Mm

    3. SPSpeaker1:20:29

       ... and of giving space. And this is gonna be a big thing for everyone listening because when we dive into all the different topics-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:36

       Yeah

    5. SPSpeaker1:20:36

       ... that are gonna affect our lives in so many different ways, when we start applying the tools that you share, um, there's this consistent theme of, of pause-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:46

       Yeah

    7. SPSpeaker1:20:46

       ... and of space. And I'll never forget, um, the first time I ever gave even a, a keynote speech, right? It was, like, a room of it was, like, 10,000 people, and all this stuff was g- it was for, um, Brendon Burchard event actually.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:58

       Okay.

    9. SPSpeaker1:20:58

       And it was the, it was the first time outside of IT Cosmetics. And it was a long story, but he's like, "I have an opening." And I'm like, "I'm in." And it was this hour spot, and it was the most phenomenal hour, but every time people cheered or even stood up and cheered or any of the things 'cause it was really fun-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:21:17

        Yeah

    11. SPSpeaker1:21:17

        ... um, and I was just, like, pouring into them, I didn't know how to pause.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:21:21

        Mm.

    13. SPSpeaker1:21:21

        I, the second they started clapping, I didn't know, and I just kept talking. And I remember afterwards, he came up to me and he says, um, "First of all," like he s- he said a, a million great things, which I'm so grateful for, and then he's like, "You need to learn how to pause and let the audience, like, have their moment."

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:21:38

        Yeah.

    15. SPSpeaker1:21:38

        Like, "They're excited. They're cheering for you. They're into it. They're so excited that you overcame this huge obstacle." And I was like, "Huh, I didn't know how to let the pause happen."

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:21:47

        Yeah.

    17. SPSpeaker1:21:47

        And what I love is you guys, you give so many examples in your book, um, of ways the pause is so powerful. Uh, but just really high level, this is for everyone listening. I want you to think right now as you're hearing me and Jefferson talk about this. When you're talking with someone, do you ever just pause and, like, let there be space, and maybe you're looking at them in the eye, or do you start to feel uncomfortable and wanna fill the space with words? Can you talk about the power, the power of the pause-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:22:16

        Yeah

    19. SPSpeaker1:22:16

        ... and how right now, everyone at home, like, different ways you can use just pausing in your communication and how it actually literally helps change your life.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:22:25

        Yeah.

    21. SPSpeaker1:22:25

        Yeah.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:22:26

        The pausing is the most powerful tool you can use in communication because it gives you time to choose things.

    23. SPSpeaker1:22:36

        Mm.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:22:36

        It gives you time to choose, is this worth my words?

    25. SPSpeaker1:22:41

        Mm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:22:41

        Is this worth my attention? It also gives you a chance to calm your own emotions, to regulate your emotions. It gives you time to think. And when you're able to pause in conversation, it allows you to show control. If you were to ask me, Jamie, if you said, "Jefferson, how was your day?" And I immediately said, "Good. I mean, my day was fine. It was good. It was good," that tells you one thing. If you asked me again, "Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, " [inhales] It was good. It was good," very different connotation.

    27. SPSpeaker1:23:14

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:23:14

        What you're telling in the first one is, "I didn't really listen to your question."

    29. SPSpeaker1:23:17

        Mm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:23:18

        The second pause is kind of clarifying of I, I listened to you. When somebody even gives you one second, two seconds of a pause after a question, it tells you that they're thinking about it.

Episode duration: 1:29:33