How To Get Any Conversation UNSTUCK

1. 0:00 – 2:31

   Why conversations get difficult: they get stuck (and blame makes it worse)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      It's often that a conversation doesn't turn difficult because either of you said the wrong thing. It turns difficult because the conversation got stuck. How do you get a conversation unstuck without the other person shutting down? Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Wherever you're listening, if you would do me a favor, find the button that says subscribe or follow, uh, a thumbs up, a heart, and click it. It doesn't cost anything, and it, it would really mean a big difference to me. This is a podcast where I care, and you care, about the way we communicate. All right. Conversational quicksand. That's what this episode is about. You're walking along, you and the other person in the conversation, and something happens. Quicksand. You walk right into it, and you don't even know it. Remember when you thought... I don't know about you, but I definitely thought quicksand was a much bigger deal, to be honest. I thought there was quicksand everywhere. I remember watching... It was in movies at the time. It was terrifying, 'cause like you mean you can just walk places and just, you just go thunk, fall right through it? Terrifying. Ooh. Okay. Conversational quicksand. It's kinda the, the same thing. It's a rut. It's a, it's a breaking down point, and you go, "I, I don't know how in the world that we got here." And it's really easy that when that quicksand happens, when things start to slow down, when you feel stuck and you're not moving a- anywhere in the conversation, to turn, get your finger and point it at the other person and say, "You did this. This is all you. You're so crazy. You're insane. Do you even hear yourself right now?" That is toxic, horrible language. We're gonna remove that, and we're gonna address the real problem, and here's the truth of it. You ready for it? Getting unstuck isn't the same thing as getting your way. Getting unstuck in a conversation is not the same thing as getting your way. You cannot win yourself out of being stuck in a conversation. So what do you do? I want you to picture this at work. Maybe it's with a colleague, um, or a coworker, or a boss, or an employee, and you're needing to discuss something, or maybe it's at home with a spouse or a, somebody you're in a relationship with, and you, you, you're having to talk about the smallest of things typically. It's not the big, big issues that cause problems, right? It's the small things, things that are, are typically silly and stupid, and somehow you, you got to this point where all of a sudden you go,

2. 2:31 – 4:02

   Recognize the quicksand early: awareness is the first exit

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:31

      "Are we, are we mad at each other right now?" How do you get unstuck in conversations? Number one, the first thing is to realize that you are stuck. That takes way more discipline and awareness than you'd think. It's hard to realize that you're stuck. What happens is typically you feel it first before you see that it's happened. You just fell right into it. You're walking along through the, through the jungle, through the woods, wherever quicksand is these days, and all of a sudden you, you look and both of you are up to your ankles, and all of a sudden your knees in quicksand, and you can't go anywhere. You can't go anywhere. When that happens, the faster you realize where you're at, what happened, the, that, that's like the first entry point of getting yourself unstuck is to know that you are stuck. Know that it's happening, and that doesn't mean it's the other person's fault. Hear me. That doesn't mean it's the other person's fault. It takes two to tango. It's a two-way street here. So it's, it's like laying yourself out. Open, open up the map, okay? There has to be a place where you go, "All right. I feel like we've seen this place before. Yeah, I recognize this issue, this... I recognize this tree. Oh, that's the same rock. Oh my gosh. We're, we spent 30 minutes and we're back to where we started. We didn't go anywhere." And it's easy to get that frustration point. Here is where you stop and go, "Okay." You

3. 4:02 – 5:02

   Call a “we’re lost” timeout using I/we language (the map metaphor)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:02

      have to be the first to say, "I, I feel like we're lost." You, uh, I want you to metaphorically get out your, your map. Remember before GPS, before MapQuest? All right. My still-- My dad still pulls out MapQuest. You had what? A map, a physical map that you had in your glove box in your car, and you pulled it out. There'd be plenty of times I did this with my grandfather where we would, before on a trip, he was gonna take me out somewhere, we would map the route with a pen. Where are we gonna turn? What are we gonna do? He'd have me write it down every turn. Like I, I was the GPS. That way I could navigate us as we went. And what do we... It w- to pull it out, and it was huge, right? It took up the whole windshield kinda thing. That's what you have to do to say, "Hey, hold up. We are lost in this moment right now, so we, we, it's, it's time to time out." What does that sound like? What does that sound like? How do you

4. 5:02 – 7:34

   Practical phrases to signal stuckness without triggering shutdown

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:02

      voice the fact that you've realized and you need to say, "Hey, we're, we're stuck"? You could just say, "I feel like we're stuck." The, the key is it's a we. It's not a, it's not a you. You've, you've brought us down. You've led us to this dead end. None of that. It needs to be either an I language or we language. It's, it's a together thing. So here are some phrases that I would give you. First realizing that you are stuck is to say, "I don't feel like we've gained any traction. I don't feel like we've made any momentum. I don't feel like we've gained any momentum." Right? "I, I don't, I don't feel as if we're making any progress. I feel like we're back to where we started." Say, "I feel." "I feel like we're, we're back in the same spot. I feel like we're on a merry-go-round. I, I feel like we've made a, a full circle. I don't feel like we've made any traction." One of my favorites, truly, because it helps me visually, is I'll say, "I, I don't know where we are on the map. I can't, I can't find us on the map right now." That's my way of saying, if I say, "I can't find us on the map," it's my way of saying, "I'm lost. We're lost." If, if I, if I were to say, "I am lost," it sounds like I'm saying, "You're the one to blame. You, you're the one that's lost me here." You-- uh, you've ever heard, ever used that phrase where you go, "You've, you've lost me. You've lost me." All of a sudden it's their respon- It's like it's your responsibility now to put me on track. No, I am, I am a, a mature, emotionally intelligent adult. It's not their job to put me on track. It's, it's, it's, it's a together thing because they might be saying it the right way, and I'm just not receiving it the right way. So let's, let's take some accountability on both sides here. There is a driver and a passenger, and there are two people, and both people can't be doing the same thing at the same time. You can't both be talking. You can't both be listening. There has to be some give and take. All right. So when I say, "I can't find us on the map," it's, it's realizing, calling out, "Hey, I think, I think we're lost." If you wanna say we, "I think, I think we're lost right now." I, I-- Anytime you're saying, "Hey, we're not making any movement. I feel like we're back to where we started," great way saying, "Hey, we cannot tackle this problem at the same level of consciousness that we created it. We cannot continue to be on the, the rollercoaster, the merry-go-round." Number two, what do you do when you've now realized it and you've voiced that? Two, you need to name what happened. What

5. 7:34 – 8:35

   Step 2: Name what happened—identify the derailment without blame

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:34

      happened? And you can't go... You can't put the blame on the other person and say, "You've done this." Same, same reasoning as I said before. It's not their responsibility. What you need to say is something that is a we thing. "I feel like we've gotten off track." Um, "I feel like we took a rabbit trail." "I feel like we're in some quicksand." "I feel like we've hit a dead end." Um, "I feel like we're now repeating the same thing." "I feel like we're now bringing up the past." A-Any words you can say that name what created that, what created the, the diversion. Listen, it happens in the easiest of conversations, the easiest. It's nobody's fault. Maybe you go, "Well, you know what? It really turned for the worst when he or she brought up the past, and they started making up all the past and all the past and all the past." Well, they, they can, they can do that. They

6. 8:35 – 9:35

   When the past comes up: don’t dismiss—acknowledge and park it

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:35

      can do that. That doesn't make the past any less valid. Maybe they need that for the point that they're making. Maybe you need that for a point that you're making. When somebody brings up the past in the conversation, what you do not do is go, "Ah, that doesn't matter," and slap that away. That's-- You're only m-making it worse. When somebody brings up the past in an argument, it's this idea if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it. And so rather than throwing it away, I want you to acknowledge and affirm and say, "I hear that. I hear that. I'm not disregarding that. For this conversation, I, I, I want to address that after we finish this conversation." If you, if you swat it away as if like, "Ugh, this, this again. Don't bring up the past," it-- you are going to compound the problem that you're in. You're gonna sink further into the quicksand. You need to acknowledge it, but you don't need to solve it right then. You're saying, "Hey, I hear that. I wanna put that to the side

7. 9:35 – 11:06

   Sponsor break: Pendulum Metabolic Daily

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:35

      so that when we finish this conversation, we'll finish this path first, then you and I can take a different, a new trip together to where we talk about these past things." But you do not want to dismiss it because it will ab-absolutely make it worse for you. Before we keep going, a quick word from Pendulum Metabolic Daily. I don't know about you, but throughout the day, if I find that my system is off, like I'm not eating really well or, uh, just feel like I'm, I'm kinda sluggish, it usually has to do with my gut. Like, what am I, what am I eating? Am I taking care of myself in the right way? Pendulum Metabolic Daily has really helped me, and it's helped countless of others. What it does, it's a five-strain probiotic that has been clinically shown to help reduce those after-meal, like, sugar spikes. It helps metabolism, and it helps keep down those, those crazy cravings that you might get later on in the evening. So it makes sure that everything is running smoothly as it is intended. The best thing about it is it's really simple. It's just one little pill that I take with s-some little snack that I have in the morning, and then I'm good for the rest of the day. So I never feel like I'm super starving. I also don't feel like I'm not getting enough. It, it keeps me at a great, steady baseline. Right now, podcast listeners can get an exclusive 20% off their first order at pendulumlife.com/jefferson. That's 20% off at pendulumlife.com/jefferson on your first order. And now, let's

8. 11:06 – 11:36

   Step 3: Realign to the goal—redirect the conversation to purpose

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:06

      keep going. So, uh, first is realizing that you're stuck. Second is naming what happened to say not that you're the problem, it's we got on the wrong path. We took the wrong path. We've lost the path. How do we get ourselves back? So that leads to number three. How do you get yourself back when a conversation is stuck? What do you say to make sure that you get yourself on the, the right course? It's as easy as asking that the two of you get back

9. 11:36 – 15:09

   Questions that create traction: solve-for, missing piece, and disagreement mapping

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:36

      on the right track. Some phrases that I love to use are, one, "Hey, what are you-- what are we trying to solve for right now? What are we-- I wanna make sure, what are we trying to solve for?" It has a wonderful way, especially for people who have more analytical minds, of m-turning on the numbers, right? Turning on a more technical side of the brain that says, "Hey, we're trying to solve for X here." And rather than just talking about all the different variables, let's start talking about how do we solve this. What are we trying to solve for here? Two, another phrase that I like to use depends especially in, in, let's just say on the relationship side of things, is I will simply say, "What, what am I, what am I missing? What am I missing?" It helps me say and voice out loud, "Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm missing a sign here. As I'm driving down the highway with you, I'm, I am missing the warning signs, the exits. I am missing it." And if I am the first to kind of volunteer that I'm-- there's something I'm missing, it, it helps break us down into like, let's take step-by-step things. Another that I like to use is, where do we disagree? Where are we disagreeing? If I s- say that out loud, let's, let's find out where we disagree. That means I wanna talk about the process of the conversation. That means there are other things that we do agree on. There are some truths that we both know. There are things we both know to be true. Here, let's, let's call out the things that we disagree on and kind of put them to the side. That way you and I can still have traction, still have momentum in the conversation. When I am s-- Uh, am I-- If I'm able to at least say, "Hey, help me. Where, where is the goal for our conversation?" You know what it's like when you're sitting there across the, the table from the other person, and you both don't even know what to say because you're so lost in the conversation, and you, and you feel defeated, and you feel upset, and you feel like nothing is good, and this was pointless, and nothing matters, and you're in this whole mindset of the script of just despair, nothing matters, nothing's ever gonna change. Uh, that's just a corrosive scarcity mentality that it's a story that you're writing for yourself. And when you can ask the other person, "Hey, what's-- I wanna make sure we're on the same page. What's the goal for this, this conversation?" Or, "What am I missing about where this conversation is, is headed?" Or, "Where-- what are we trying to solve for right now?" Or maybe you just need to bring up the word that you know you were originally sup- supposed to talk about. "Okay, hey, I, I know we were supposed to talk about the, the proposal decision or the budget decision," or, um, even asking the question of, "Okay, what are our, what are our takeaways? What are our action steps right now?" I love the phrase-- Sierra does a great job of always bringing us to action steps. She'll often say, "Okay, what are our action steps?" It's like, got it. Okay, we're, we're, we're in the quicksand, in the, in the, the rut because we've just been in this loop that we don't even know we're operating in because we're tired, we're hungry, we're... You know, whatever, you name it, with all the stress you have going on. There's something about the word, "Hey, okay, what's our, what's our action steps?" That cues us in that we need to have some traction. Help, help

10. 15:09 – 16:11

    Avoid the defeatist trap: don’t hand the wheel to the other person

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:09

       walk, walk with me through this conversation, which you cannot do. Please hear me on this disclaimer. What you cannot do is be this defeatist and say, "Okay, well, you tell me, Mr. So-and-so, Mrs. So-and-so, um, what are we doing in this convers- I don't even know what I'm doing in this conversation right now. So you tell me, okay? You're the smart one. You tell me." Eh, you stop that. Stop that. It's, it's not a one-person thing. It's not a one-person thing. Hear me when I say you cannot, hmm, you cannot win yourself out of being unstuck. Like you cannot continue in the conversation until you win to get yourself unstuck. That's, that's not the way it happens. Otherwise, if, if you've forced yourself to a position to win, meaning you've said the hard, harsh thing, you've,

11. 16:11 – 17:41

    Sponsor break: Zocdoc

    1. JFJefferson Fisher16:11

       you've pushed it too far, you've decided to, to, to explode for it all to hit the fan, and you think that's the way you're gonna get unstuck. No, you're gonna fall right into the same quicksand the next chance that you get. This episode is sponsored by Zocdoc. I know because you're human and I'm human that there is a doctor's appointment that you should be scheduling right now, but you haven't done it yet. Why? Because life. I know I have an appointment that I certainly need to make, and I have put it off for far too long. Zocdoc has helped me with that, and it's gonna help you. What Zocdoc does is it is an online database of all these doctors that are in network and local to you that it can show not only are they in close by, are they in network, uh, regardless of what kind of specialty they're in, also sets appointments right then and there. You can see what booking slots they have avail-available, so you're not having to go back and forth with the dermatologist front office, and hopefully they're ringing five times. You don't get anybody. They're supposed to call you back in this phone tag, and it's terrible, and the next thing you know, it's six months later. I'm, I'm speaking from experience here, y'all. When you go to Zocdoc, it makes it all easy, one all-in-one platform that I can know I'm gonna get a doctor that's great, and also they also-- they do telehealth, so you can have people talk to you right from your phone if you need to. Whatever specialty, dermatologist, dentist, GP, you name it. Go to zocdoc.com and

12. 17:41 – 20:37

    Putting the 3-step method together + the ‘letter of intent’ mindset

    1. JFJefferson Fisher17:41

       set that first appointment that you've been putting off for far too long. Zocdoc, Z-O-C-D-O-C.com. And now let's keep going. The only way to get unstuck in a conversation without s- shutting someone down is to, one, realize first that you're stuck, that the conversation is in a rut. It's squeezed. It can't go anywhere. Two, name what happened without blame. "Hey, I think we got lost. Hey, I, I can't find us on the map right now. Hey, I think we, we took a detour. Hey, I think we got-- we, we went way off track. I think we took a rabbit trail." Right? Be able to voice that. And three, realign- The heading. Okay? But be able to redirect yourself of where you need to go by reminding yourself, both of you, of the goal, why you started talking in the first place. And if you're really not sure, then ask questions that say, "Hey, what are we solving for right now? What are our action steps? What's the takeaway? Let's find out w- first, where, where are the issues that we disagree, and then we can put that aside and continue to make traction." Then we can address, because sometimes the goal is not some destination, it's simply understanding. The goal is clarity. The goal is I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm not asking you to fix anything. I need, we need, to have clarity of position. There is a legal concept, um, in, in contracts, in transactional, uh, work, and people in real estate and other business dealings certainly know what this is. It's called a letter of intent, meaning before you and I start hashing out the detail of what needs to happen and who needs to do what, there is first a document that says, "Hey, I am writing to you of my intent, and my intent is that we do X, Y, and Z, X, Y, and Z." Then somebody else on the other side will say, "Here's my letter of intent, X, Y, and Z, X, Y, and Z." And usually that's compiled into one document where we go, "We have now an agreed letter of intent," meaning there's no agreement. We're only agreeing to agree in the future, meaning, hey, this is-- we're at least agreeing on our intent for the future issue that we have, the future project, the future whatever it is. On this future contract, we're not agreeing to anything. We're only showing our intent to agree in the future. And then the hope is that what the actual contract look like mirrors what the letter of intent is. Often that it does, and typically if it doesn't, then the attorneys get involved most of the time. So it's, it's, it's that. You need to have a letter of intent type mentality in conversations when you feel like, w- feel like things are f- f- are in a rut, when things are not where they need to be, and you feel like I, I'm just... I'm moving in slow motion in this conversation, and I don't know how to get out of it. I need you to turn back to your intents. That's how you get unstuck in a conversation

Episode duration: 20:37