How To Handle Challenging Conversations With Co-workers

Speaker 0:00 What is your overall approach to communicating with coworkers?

Jefferson Fisher 0:04 I find that people who you're working with, they're not your family, as much as you want them to be, and sometimes they're your person in the, in the storm. I- you can get really-

Speaker 0:17 It's like in Severance, right? Have you been watching Severance?

Jefferson Fisher 0:19 I have not.

Speaker 0:19 Oh, okay.

Jefferson Fisher 0:20 But-

Speaker 0:20 It's good.

Jefferson Fisher 0:20 Is it? Okay.

Speaker 0:21 [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, it's dark-

Jefferson Fisher 0:22 It's-

Speaker 0:22 ... but it's okay.

Jefferson Fisher 0:23 Oh, okay.

Speaker 0:23 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 0:23 Oh, all right. I'm learning a lot-

Speaker 0:26 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 0:26 ... just about this etiquette life. Um, it's the same thing with any difficult conversation. Whenever you have two people that are going through a common goal, they get closer. When you have a lot... You talk about the same thing, you communicate about the same thing, you are working towards a common objective, you typically talk bad about the same people.

Speaker 0:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 0:45 Right?

Speaker 0:45 Your boss, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 0:46 Yeah. You talk bad, "Can you believe this?" Something like-

Speaker 0:48 Yep

Jefferson Fisher 0:48 ... and you're like, "Can you s- did you see what she's wearing?"

Speaker 0:50 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 0:50 Like, you... Yeah, it's like, "Oh, this coffee's really bad in here." You find ways of communicating with the person, whether it's by complaining.

Speaker 0:57 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 0:57 Complaining is often a very, or gossiping about people is-

Speaker 1:01 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:01 ... a very communal-

Speaker 1:03 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:04 ... thing. It's like it's bonding. Well, how do you handle, let's say, a lot of different topics where you go with coworkers. Let's put it in gossip, 'cause I think that could be a, a-

Speaker 1:12 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 1:12 ... that tends to be a pretty common thing, when somebody is, you're in the office, and somebody is gossiping about someone. And let's, mind you, the person you're, this coworker, is not like your bestie.

Speaker 1:23 Yeah, not your bestie.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24 Not your bestie.

Speaker 1:24 Yep, not to be trusted.

Jefferson Fisher 1:25 And you're, uh... Because if it is your bestie, go for it. Say all the things you wanna say.

Speaker 1:29 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30 But let's say it's just, it's a very nosy coworker, and they're gossiping about somebody, and you don't know how to handle it, 'cause you don't wanna really get into it. Here is what I would suggest, is you go, "I don't know. I'll ask them." So-

Speaker 1:43 Oh, yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:44 ... so any time-

Speaker 1:44 'Cause then they'll be like, "No, no, no, no, don't go ask them."

Jefferson Fisher 1:46 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:46 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:46 Yeah. Uh, or, uh, yeah, so you c- [laughs] you say, "I don't know. I'll ask them." [laughs] Like, it's, it has such an immediate effect of like [gasps] "No, no, we're good, we're good, we're good."

Speaker 1:55 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:55 Or, it's you, you could flip it and say, you know, "I don't know, have you asked them?" And they'll typically go, "No, uh, but..." And they'll-

Speaker 2:04 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 2:04 ... keep talking about it. As long as you're saying that, or just a simple, you know, "I don't know. Ah, I don't, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't know," you're not engaging in it. You're not feeding the fire.

Speaker 2:14 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 2:14 They're gonna realize, "I can't go anywhere with this person. I will find someone else to vent to."

Speaker 2:18 Although, I do think sometimes it is valuable to be aware of office gossip.

Jefferson Fisher 2:22 Yeah.

Speaker 2:22 'Cause it is like intelligence, right? But I, I did-

Jefferson Fisher 2:24 Sometimes.

Speaker 2:25 [laughs] But I did prepare a couple other scenarios that I just thought of-

Jefferson Fisher 2:30 Okay

Speaker 2:31 ... about how to navigate workplace tension, and one of them is the passive-aggressive emailer.

Jefferson Fisher 2:36 Oh.

Speaker 2:36 Right? Where they're sending vague jabs disguised as, disguised as politeness, using phrases like, "Per my last email," and, "Just to clarify," which I find myself using them too sometimes.

Jefferson Fisher 2:47 I've seen lots of memes about these, of like if you, somebody is saying, "Per my last email," means like, "Look at my email, you idiot."

Speaker 2:55 Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 2:56 Like, there's ways of trying to send that.

Speaker 2:59 I mean, what would be a nicer way to than to say, "Per my last email?" 'Cause it's over... Y- you're typing it, right? So it's, there's some things that are... Like, when you write something, it's different communication than saying something face to face.

Jefferson Fisher 3:10 No doubt. I, well-

Speaker 3:12 Is it better to say, like, "Please take a look at my last email, dated March 1st?"

Jefferson Fisher 3:16 Well, let's talk about it. Let's etiquette this out. You could, in a sense, um, just forward the email to them.

Speaker 3:22 [laughs] Like, "I've attached the email-

Jefferson Fisher 3:24 Yeah

Speaker 3:24 ... from March 1st."

Jefferson Fisher 3:24 You could s- you could, you could, you could, you... Yeah.

Speaker 3:26 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 3:26 Instead of the, "Per my last email," just, you could just forward it to them.

Speaker 3:29 Yeah, and then say, "Did you see this?"

Jefferson Fisher 3:30 Yeah. Um, or it's, you could put this friendly at, just putting this at the top, you know, whatever.

Speaker 3:36 Yeah, I, I'll do that. Like, you know, just, uh, you know, just, yeah, I'll say, "Bumping this up to the top of your inbox."

Jefferson Fisher 3:41 Yeah, or you could have a simple... If they're like, "Hey, have you blah, blah, blah, blah," and you've already answered this, you could, you could just forward it to them. Like, to me, I don't find that being too s-

Speaker 3:51 You wouldn't get offended, right? Great.

Jefferson Fisher 3:53 I'm not. Now, there's some people who-

Speaker 3:54 I'll, I'll email you next time

Jefferson Fisher 3:55 ... there's some people who would. Or even if you just give, like, a simple yes or a no, and you s- you forward that or attach that last email, great. It's the, "Per my last email," type of thing that has become so... I think the first time people typed it, no problem, but now it's become so part of culture to make it a much more passive thing.

Speaker 4:17 [laughs] Right, right.

Jefferson Fisher 4:18 But let's say, let's say they don't send all of that. Let's just put it as a, they send a snarky email.

Speaker 4:23 Yeah, which people do.

Jefferson Fisher 4:25 Oh, yeah. People do. And they have to d-

Speaker 4:28 Sometimes I want to, but I stop myself-

Jefferson Fisher 4:29 Yeah, I was gonna say, sometimes I wanna

Speaker 4:31 ... 'cause I'm an etiquette expert. Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 4:31 No. Um, I think that there are ways... Here's how I would handle somebody who gives passive-aggressive comments at work, is you ask the question, "Should I read into that?"

Speaker 4:42 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:43 Or, "Did you mean?" So let's say I'm talking with you, and I'm sitting in your office.

Speaker 4:49 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:49 Let's just put it in face to face real quick. So, and you have a comment that makes me go, "Huh, I feel like that was a little... I felt like that was a jab." If you feel that, you can ask the question, "Should I, should I read into that comment?"

Speaker 5:05 Mm, yeah. That's great, because w- w- the way you're saying it is, is neutral, the way you're saying-

Jefferson Fisher 5:08 Yes

Speaker 5:08 ... it's, it's from the heart.

Jefferson Fisher 5:10 Right.

Speaker 5:10 Right? And, and it's more like a confused or curious, as opposed to accusatory.

Jefferson Fisher 5:14 Exactly. And, or I love this, this, uh, question phrasing, because it works with a lot of different things, is asking, beginning with, "Did you mean?"

Speaker 5:25 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:25 "Did you mean for that to come across short? Did you, did you mean to sound upset?"

Speaker 5:29 "Did you mean to be passive-aggressive?"

Jefferson Fisher 5:31 Yeah.

Speaker 5:32 Well, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 5:33 Uh, maybe-

Speaker 5:33 Uh, maybe not

Jefferson Fisher 5:33 ... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:33 Yeah, we'll strike that one out.

Jefferson Fisher 5:34 Yeah, yeah. You know when-

Speaker 5:35 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 5:36 ... you w- you, but if you said, if you, uh, said something as simple as, "Did you mean to sound upset?"

Speaker 5:43 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 5:43 Right?

Speaker 5:44 That's great, 'cause yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 5:45 Most likely, the response you're gonna get is, "Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm-"

Speaker 5:48 That's true

Jefferson Fisher 5:49 ... "I'm gonna, no, no, no. I was doing this. I was doing this." And they'll-

Speaker 5:51 Um

Jefferson Fisher 5:52 ... justify or explain more, because sometimes, especially in email, we read the negative. In text message, w- we hardly ever- ... read the positive into someone's words. We read the negative.

Speaker 6:06 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 6:06 We love the negative. So if I just responded to your text, "Okay," you're gonna go, "What kind of okay is this?"

Speaker 6:14 Oh, yeah, for Gen Z, that gives them, like, anxiety attacks now.

Jefferson Fisher 6:16 Is that right?

Speaker 6:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 6:17 I had no clue. Well, i- if you have this just, "Okay," it's usually, "Okay," like, it's just the worst possible thing because you don't, you don't, you can't do anything with it. You don't know how to read into that. So typically, we read the negative. "Okay, I guess you're upset with me. I guess you hate me."

Speaker 6:35 What about the credit stealer, the person who takes credit for group work or reframes your ideas as their own in front of the boss?

Jefferson Fisher 6:41 Oh.

Speaker 6:41 What should you... Should you confront them, or should you find a way to get it back to the boss that they're a credit stealer?

Jefferson Fisher 6:48 Yeah, so what I would do is... Huh, I don't think I've ever been asked this. I wouldn't do it right then and there and go, "Uh-uh, that's my idea," in front of the boss.

Speaker 6:56 No. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 6:56 Then that makes you look-

Speaker 6:57 Bad

Jefferson Fisher 6:58 ... needy.

Speaker 6:58 Yes, needy and yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:00 Yeah, so what I would do is talk to that person after the meeting and begin with a, "Did you mean to, to give them my idea?"

Speaker 7:08 That's great. Did you mean to? I'm just loving this-

Jefferson Fisher 7:10 Yeah

Speaker 7:10 ... did you mean to? I need to find-

Jefferson Fisher 7:12 It's great

Speaker 7:12 ... ways I can use this more. Yes. Did you mean to, yeah, take credit for my idea or to give... Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 7:17 Right. So you s- "Did you mean to give, you know, take the credit for, for my idea or not?" Or you can say, "Did you mean to not mention my name in that idea?"

Speaker 7:26 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 7:27 So because you're, now you're really getting strategic. Did you mean not... Did you mean-

Speaker 7:31 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 7:31 ... to not bring up my name-

Speaker 7:32 Love it

Jefferson Fisher 7:32 ... when you mentioned that? The response you're gonna get most likely is the, "Oh, no, I just, I totally forgot." They're not gonna go, "Yes, I-"

Speaker 7:39 Okay, then what would you say to that? I would say, "Then can you please tell-

Jefferson Fisher 7:43 Mm-hmm. Do you mind? Yeah

Speaker 7:43 ... do you mind telling the boss or..." Right.

Jefferson Fisher 7:45 Yes. Yeah, then-

Speaker 7:46 Do you mind adding my name?

Jefferson Fisher 7:47 Exactly. Uh, so then I would make the ask for it. Then would it, um, would it be a bad time for us to do X, Y, and Z? Or would us to, um, would you mind raising that the next time we talk about this, or do you mind sending an email? Now, whatever that is, uh, you're saying, "I... Then I would love to have you add the mention," or, "It would mean a lot to me if you added the mention to-

Speaker 8:10 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 8:10 ... X, Y, and Z."

Speaker 8:10 And, and then they fix it.

Jefferson Fisher 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 8:11 What about the micromanager, right? Your boss who doesn't trust you to do your job. They hover. They over-correct. They nitpick unnecessarily.

Jefferson Fisher 8:20 So that's a symptom of them, not you.

Speaker 8:22 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 8:23 And there's not much you can physically, verbally do to just change somebody's behavior 'cause you can really only control what you can. So how do you manage somebody who's-

Speaker 8:35 Yeah, you'll manage... You're really just managing it.

Jefferson Fisher 8:37 Yeah. This is what comes to mind at least right now is if I can communicate with them to give me one little thing, give me one thing that is my own, and once you complete that task, show them that you can complete another more. And it's best to have these in little, bitty conversations to where you have complete autonomy over something. And it's, you never wanna make it... Like, what I compare micromanaging to is somebody is feeling like they are on the elevator, and they feel like the elevator's gonna burst out from them.

Speaker 9:13 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 9:13 So they wanna press every floor. They wanna check every little thing that you're doing because they're afraid something's gonna get dropped, and it's again the fear of, it's a fear within themselves, not, not of you. So if you can in conversation try to say, you know, "I would love to have full autonomy over this little thing," or make that suggestion, and if this is gonna... If I can reach that, then I'd like a little bit more. It depends on context, but that's the mindset you wanna go into.

Speaker 9:42 Let's move on to strangers and the art of winning people over. There's the age-old question: Is it better to be liked or to be respected?

Jefferson Fisher 9:51 Oh.

Speaker 9:52 What's your take?

Jefferson Fisher 9:53 Better to be liked because the person who is liked will naturally get more respect. Uh, and it lasts, it lasts a lot longer. The people who like you are people who want to do things with you, for you, uh, together. It's... I find that if you can make people want to be around you, then you're going to get more people who want to do things willingly rather than out of fear.

Speaker 10:20 I agree with you except maybe in a work setting, right? Because when you have strong relationships and goodwill, people are motivated to work for you. But if you come across as competent, then, like, if... When people respect you for your competence, like, I feel that is also a very lasting influence. I mean, you hear about, like, bosses who are just terrible human beings, but people, everybody wants to work for them.

Jefferson Fisher 10:43 And then nobody's-

Speaker 10:45 Then nobody misses them

Jefferson Fisher 10:45 ... nobody's sad when they die. I mean, like-

Speaker 10:47 Yeah, that's true

Jefferson Fisher 10:47 ... and it's like, what, I mean, what-

Speaker 10:48 That's true

Jefferson Fisher 10:48 ... what kind of legacy [laughs] do you wanna leave? Like, and I think there's a difference too of somebody who's competent, and they're resilient and all these under- other wonderful things that you can absolutely be respected.

Speaker 11:00 And you can-

Jefferson Fisher 11:00 I can be liked and be respected.

Speaker 11:02 You absolutely... I mean, the, the ideal is to be both. So if we wanna be liked, in terms of first impressions, how do we gain instant trust?

Jefferson Fisher 11:10 One would be smile a lot, more than you think.

Speaker 11:13 I always say that, eye contact and smile.

Jefferson Fisher 11:14 Yeah, eye contact and smile. And for people who have trouble with eye contact, a little trick is to end your sentences looking at their eyes rather than feeling like you have to stare at their eyes the whole entire time. Two is pace your conversation, so slow it down. What you're wanting to do is make it very calm and easy for them to be around you and wanna listen to you. So I like to compare it to listening to different types of music. So again, 'cause remember the music thing.

Speaker 11:44 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 11:45 So think of the people you like to be around and apply a song to their personality.

Speaker 11:51 Wow, this is getting-

Jefferson Fisher 11:51 Or a band

Speaker 11:51 ... like, very technical. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 11:53 A, like a band to their person.

Speaker 11:54 Apply a song. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 11:54 Yeah, there's some people who are like, make you anxious because everything that they do is like a high-energy rock music where it's just always crazy. There are other people who are like easy listening where it's a lot slower where you go, "Oh, I kinda like... I could put this on and listen to it all day." There are just different types of wavelengths and frequencies that we just enjoy hearing

Speaker 12:17 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 12:17 So if you wanna... It's like those same per- type of people that you go, "Ah, they just feel really warm."

Speaker 12:22 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 12:22 How do you, how do you explain that to people that just feel warm?

Speaker 12:26 So okay, so tell us about some of your trial tactics, right? Like, what, how does body language and speech affect strangers, and how do you establish yourself as a truth teller? 'Cause I feel like you have to do that in your job every day in front of juries, right? Like, what do juries teach us about human nature?

Jefferson Fisher 12:43 What to do, what not to do. Um, I find that trial attorneys, we want to persuade a jury to find in favor for my client. Now, there are limitations because I can only argue the facts that I'm given. I can't choose my facts, and I have to argue it within the law. I can't choose what law applies. So when I am getting information or I'm wanting to, uh, make a point to somebody, it's very crucial that I am very concise. So good trial attorneys, you take 40 pages and you turn it into two sentences. And so same thing with, like, my content. I could talk way longer than 47 seconds or 30 seconds. You have to find ways to make it really concise to just the essentials of what matters. And w- how does that translate? It means when you're in conversations, especially difficult conversations, the less you say, the more you mean.

Speaker 13:39 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 13:39 Uh, it's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Or more it's, you say something, the more it sounds like you don't know enough about it. So when you have to give information to somebody or respond, you wanna keep your sentences very short and very concise. It's much, much better, I like to term it as instead of being a waterfall of information, you wanna be a well to where they always find, like, they just want a little bit more at a time.

Speaker 14:09 And you know what? I can actually think of people that I know who are, yeah, people who are wells and people who are waterfalls. I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna use that to, like, distinguish between friends now.

Jefferson Fisher 14:18 Oh, cool.

Speaker 14:19 I love it. Um, and then how about using voice and vulnerability to persuade?

Jefferson Fisher 14:23 Voice and vulnerability.

Speaker 14:24 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 14:25 Yeah.

Speaker 14:26 'Cause you talk about how you use that in, in your courtroom.

Jefferson Fisher 14:29 Mm-hmm. The people who talk fast are the people who are typically not listened to in a courtroom because it's very hard to keep up with them. You have a lot of different people who have different styles, and when I can slow my words down, especially on important points, the more they're going to be remembered. 'Cause at the end of the day, that's what I want these 12 people to do, remember. When they go back to the liberations and it's been two weeks, three weeks of trial, I'm gonna need them to remember certain things, and other times they won't. So if I can slow my words down, there's, has, they have more-

Speaker 15:03 Weight

Jefferson Fisher 15:03 ... punch. Like, there's a difference between me saying, "I already told you. I, I'm, I'm not gonna do that," versus, "I already told you. I'm not going to do that." Like, which one has more weight to it?

Speaker 15:16 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 15:16 Which one shows I'm more in control, I have more confidence, I have more weight in the conversation that I'm not going to be moved? It's always the second one.

Speaker 15:26 And what about vulnerability?

Jefferson Fisher 15:27 Yeah, vulnerability is wonderful in conversation because it naturally removes people's defenses. If I can tell you before I'm having a conversation that I'm feeling nervous about it, y- you're not gonna get upset or, like, "Nervous? How dare you?" It's like, "Oh, no, it's okay. We c- we can talk. What's going on?"

Speaker 15:43 That almost makes the other person want to protect you.

Jefferson Fisher 15:45 Yeah. We now wanna almost kinda take your hand in the conversation.

Speaker 15:48 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 15:48 "No, I'm, I'm listening. I'm listening." So there's a guy who I, I've, I have not had a trial against him, but I've seen him, and he is not a guy who's very tall and or, or big. He's, he's a smaller guy. And in trial, he gets very nervous in front of other people, which is very weird as a trial attorney, but it happens. And he tells them-

Speaker 16:09 Why did he choose to go into this profession?

Jefferson Fisher 16:11 Because he's, he's passionate about advocating for people.

Speaker 16:14 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:14 I mean, it's, it's the justice element. It's wanting to help-

Speaker 16:16 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 16:16 ... people for the right reasons, and he does such a masterful job. When he's in the courtroom, he'll tell the jury, he'll go, "I, now, just, just so you know, I, I, I, I get a little nervous in, in front of people talking."

Speaker 16:26 Oh, that is so cute. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 16:27 And that's what every person in the jury thinks right there, okay? And you know what they do? They go, "I love this person. Forget the case. I don't care. Your client wins."

Speaker 16:38 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 16:38 Like, that's what happens.

Speaker 16:40 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 16:40 If they don't like the attorney, they're not going to like the client.

Speaker 16:44 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:44 If they don't like the attorney, you're going to lose. They're not gonna find in favor of somebody that they don't like, and they will find reasons for that. But when he, when he starts to kinda stutter and say, "I, I, I get nervous, but I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna represent my client," like, everybody in the courtroom just goes-

Speaker 17:00 He's like a hero, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 17:01 ... "G- just take the money."

Speaker 17:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 17:02 Like, everybody just loves the guy. And so but that's what happens every day. Somebody who's nervous in conversation, we root for them. We, we want, we want to see them succeed. And so being vulnerable is very much a strength.

Speaker 17:16 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 17:16 When you can tell someone how you're feeling in that moment, or you're telling someone, you know, uh, of-

Speaker 17:22 I'm not perfect.

Jefferson Fisher 17:23 Exactly, because perfection's not relatable.

Speaker 17:25 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:25 Vulnerability struggles are. So when you can tell someone what you're struggling with, so the takeaway here, if I tell somebody, "I'm struggling to find the words to say this"-

Speaker 17:35 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 17:35 ... or, "I'm, I'm struggling to control my nerves right now"-

Speaker 17:39 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 17:39 ... you are just showing a little bit of yourself to make them feel, "Oh, yeah, I, I know that feeling."

Speaker 17:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:44 And they're gonna wanna take your hand in that conversation, and it's gonna go better.

Speaker 17:47 And you can apply this to anything, to, to love, to career-

Jefferson Fisher 17:50 Yeah

Speaker 17:50 ... to friends, to strangers.

Jefferson Fisher 17:53 As long as you're not doing it passively of, like, "I, I struggle to understand"-

Speaker 17:56 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 17:56 ... "how you could possibly..." Like, you don't wanna use that. That's, that's not the kinda struggle we're after.

Speaker 18:01 So my, my favorite quote of yours is that smart people never win arguments because you lose the relationship.

Jefferson Fisher 18:07 Yeah. Uh, if, when you set out to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. It is this idea that you can, if you set out to win every argument- ... y- all you do is win their contempt. Y- you've won to be the first to apologize most likely, and you lose their confidence. You lose their trust. You lose their respect, the connection. It's this idea that you can still win an argument and still be wrong. It, it, it, it does nothing.

Speaker 18:35 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 18:35 It does nothing. And so when you start to pull your way and I start to pull mine, all we do is make the knot tighter. It makes it harder to undo, and it takes longer for us to undo the knot. So instead of seeing arguments as something to win, I want you to see them as something to unravel because it's, all that it is, uh, arguments are just a window into somebody's struggle in that, in that moment. What are they truly struggling with? And if you just keep tugging and I just keep tugging, it takes a very long time to undo that knot. If I can be quick to apologize, well, it's very easy to loosen that knot.

Speaker 19:10 Mm. Yeah, yeah. Again, the de-escalation.

Jefferson Fisher 19:11 But, yeah. But the, the harder I squeeze onto that-

Speaker 19:14 Hang on. Oh, it's tight

Jefferson Fisher 19:14 ... apology and I'm never gonna give it from you, we're just, it's, it, it, it'll take two weeks, it'll take six months, it'll take a year before we undo that knot to have an actual conversation again.

Speaker 19:25 Yeah. I love that analogy. And, and I feel that when we think of them as difficult conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 19:30 From you

Speaker 19:31 ... arguments-

Jefferson Fisher 19:31 Just, it's, it, it-

Speaker 19:32 ... if we handle them well, it actually is an opportunity to deepen a relationship.

Jefferson Fisher 19:36 Yeah.

Speaker 19:36 Like, when I think about the relationships I've been in, usually after you have that difficult conversation, then you, you come away thinking, "Oh, I have more of a connection-"

Jefferson Fisher 19:43 Absolutely

Speaker 19:43 ... with that other person.

Jefferson Fisher 19:43 Because you've been through the difficult with them.

Speaker 19:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:45 Like, you, you've been through the hard stuff.

Speaker 19:47 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 19:47 The ones you are-

Speaker 19:48 And that's meaningful.

Jefferson Fisher 19:49 It's super meaningful because you, you created bonding in, in that, in the struggle together. It's this idea that the deeper connection you wanna have some- with somebody, then the deeper tolerance you must have for difficult conversation. It's if you've only had surface level conversations, you're gonna have a surface level-

Speaker 20:06 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 20:06 ... relationship.

Speaker 20:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 20:08 And the people that are able to go deep with you on something, es- even when it's hard, even when you're tearing up and sometimes you yell, and you've experienced that. Because that means I'm still here even when you're showing me all of your flaws. It means I'm still here and I still wanna be here with you, and that's, that, that means something to people.

Speaker 20:27 That is beautiful.

Jefferson Fisher 20:29 If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there