How To Handle Challenging Conversations With Co-workers

1. 0:00 – 1:04

   Coworkers aren’t family: how shared goals (and complaints) create workplace bonds

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      What is your overall approach to communicating with coworkers?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:04

      I find that people who you're working with, they're not your family, as much as you want them to be, and sometimes they're your person in the, in the storm. I- you can get really-

   3. SPSpeaker0:17

      It's like in Severance, right? Have you been watching Severance?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:19

      I have not.

   5. SPSpeaker0:19

      Oh, okay.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:20

      But-

   7. SPSpeaker0:20

      It's good.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:20

      Is it? Okay.

   9. SPSpeaker0:21

      [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, it's dark-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher0:22

       It's-

   11. SPSpeaker0:22

       ... but it's okay.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher0:23

       Oh, okay.

   13. SPSpeaker0:23

       [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher0:23

       Oh, all right. I'm learning a lot-

   15. SPSpeaker0:26

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher0:26

       ... just about this etiquette life. Um, it's the same thing with any difficult conversation. Whenever you have two people that are going through a common goal, they get closer. When you have a lot... You talk about the same thing, you communicate about the same thing, you are working towards a common objective, you typically talk bad about the same people.

   17. SPSpeaker0:45

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher0:45

       Right?

   19. SPSpeaker0:45

       Your boss, yeah.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher0:46

       Yeah. You talk bad, "Can you believe this?" Something like-

   21. SPSpeaker0:48

       Yep

   22. JFJefferson Fisher0:48

       ... and you're like, "Can you s- did you see what she's wearing?"

   23. SPSpeaker0:50

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher0:50

       Like, you... Yeah, it's like, "Oh, this coffee's really bad in here." You find ways of communicating with the person, whether it's by complaining.

   25. SPSpeaker0:57

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher0:57

       Complaining is often a very, or gossiping about people is-

   27. SPSpeaker1:01

       Mm-hmm

   28. JFJefferson Fisher1:01

       ... a very communal-

   29. SPSpeaker1:03

       Yes

2. 1:04 – 2:18

   Stopping gossip without making it awkward: “I don’t know—I’ll ask them”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:04

      ... thing. It's like it's bonding. Well, how do you handle, let's say, a lot of different topics where you go with coworkers. Let's put it in gossip, 'cause I think that could be a, a-

   2. SPSpeaker1:12

      Okay

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:12

      ... that tends to be a pretty common thing, when somebody is, you're in the office, and somebody is gossiping about someone. And let's, mind you, the person you're, this coworker, is not like your bestie.

   4. SPSpeaker1:23

      Yeah, not your bestie.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:24

      Not your bestie.

   6. SPSpeaker1:24

      Yep, not to be trusted.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher1:25

      And you're, uh... Because if it is your bestie, go for it. Say all the things you wanna say.

   8. SPSpeaker1:29

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher1:30

      But let's say it's just, it's a very nosy coworker, and they're gossiping about somebody, and you don't know how to handle it, 'cause you don't wanna really get into it. Here is what I would suggest, is you go, "I don't know. I'll ask them." So-

   10. SPSpeaker1:43

       Oh, yes

   11. JFJefferson Fisher1:44

       ... so any time-

   12. SPSpeaker1:44

       'Cause then they'll be like, "No, no, no, no, don't go ask them."

   13. JFJefferson Fisher1:46

       Yeah, exactly.

   14. SPSpeaker1:46

       Yes.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher1:46

       Yeah. Uh, or, uh, yeah, so you c- [laughs] you say, "I don't know. I'll ask them." [laughs] Like, it's, it has such an immediate effect of like [gasps] "No, no, we're good, we're good, we're good."

   16. SPSpeaker1:55

       [laughs]

   17. JFJefferson Fisher1:55

       Or, it's you, you could flip it and say, you know, "I don't know, have you asked them?" And they'll typically go, "No, uh, but..." And they'll-

   18. SPSpeaker2:04

       Mm-hmm

   19. JFJefferson Fisher2:04

       ... keep talking about it. As long as you're saying that, or just a simple, you know, "I don't know. Ah, I don't, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't know," you're not engaging in it. You're not feeding the fire.

   20. SPSpeaker2:14

       Right.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher2:14

       They're gonna realize, "I can't go anywhere with this person. I will find someone else to vent to."

3. 2:18 – 2:31

   When gossip is ‘office intelligence’: staying informed without participating

   1. SPSpeaker2:18

      Although, I do think sometimes it is valuable to be aware of office gossip.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:22

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker2:22

      'Cause it is like intelligence, right? But I, I did-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:24

      Sometimes.

   5. SPSpeaker2:25

      [laughs] But I did prepare a couple other scenarios that I just thought of-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:30

      Okay

4. 2:31 – 4:31

   The passive-aggressive email problem: removing the sting from “Per my last email”

   1. SPSpeaker2:31

      ... about how to navigate workplace tension, and one of them is the passive-aggressive emailer.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:36

      Oh.

   3. SPSpeaker2:36

      Right? Where they're sending vague jabs disguised as, disguised as politeness, using phrases like, "Per my last email," and, "Just to clarify," which I find myself using them too sometimes.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:47

      I've seen lots of memes about these, of like if you, somebody is saying, "Per my last email," means like, "Look at my email, you idiot."

   5. SPSpeaker2:55

      Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:56

      Like, there's ways of trying to send that.

   7. SPSpeaker2:59

      I mean, what would be a nicer way to than to say, "Per my last email?" 'Cause it's over... Y- you're typing it, right? So it's, there's some things that are... Like, when you write something, it's different communication than saying something face to face.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:10

      No doubt. I, well-

   9. SPSpeaker3:12

      Is it better to say, like, "Please take a look at my last email, dated March 1st?"

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:16

       Well, let's talk about it. Let's etiquette this out. You could, in a sense, um, just forward the email to them.

   11. SPSpeaker3:22

       [laughs] Like, "I've attached the email-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker3:24

       ... from March 1st."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

       You could s- you could, you could, you could, you... Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker3:26

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher3:26

       Instead of the, "Per my last email," just, you could just forward it to them.

   17. SPSpeaker3:29

       Yeah, and then say, "Did you see this?"

   18. JFJefferson Fisher3:30

       Yeah. Um, or it's, you could put this friendly at, just putting this at the top, you know, whatever.

   19. SPSpeaker3:36

       Yeah, I, I'll do that. Like, you know, just, uh, you know, just, yeah, I'll say, "Bumping this up to the top of your inbox."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher3:41

       Yeah, or you could have a simple... If they're like, "Hey, have you blah, blah, blah, blah," and you've already answered this, you could, you could just forward it to them. Like, to me, I don't find that being too s-

   21. SPSpeaker3:51

       You wouldn't get offended, right? Great.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher3:53

       I'm not. Now, there's some people who-

   23. SPSpeaker3:54

       I'll, I'll email you next time

   24. JFJefferson Fisher3:55

       ... there's some people who would. Or even if you just give, like, a simple yes or a no, and you s- you forward that or attach that last email, great. It's the, "Per my last email," type of thing that has become so... I think the first time people typed it, no problem, but now it's become so part of culture to make it a much more passive thing.

   25. SPSpeaker4:17

       [laughs] Right, right.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher4:18

       But let's say, let's say they don't send all of that. Let's just put it as a, they send a snarky email.

   27. SPSpeaker4:23

       Yeah, which people do.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher4:25

       Oh, yeah. People do. And they have to d-

   29. SPSpeaker4:28

       Sometimes I want to, but I stop myself-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher4:29

       Yeah, I was gonna say, sometimes I wanna
5. 4:31 – 5:52

   Calling out snark in real time: “Should I read into that?” and “Did you mean…?”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:31

      No. Um, I think that there are ways... Here's how I would handle somebody who gives passive-aggressive comments at work, is you ask the question, "Should I read into that?"

   2. SPSpeaker4:42

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:43

      Or, "Did you mean?" So let's say I'm talking with you, and I'm sitting in your office.

   4. SPSpeaker4:49

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:49

      Let's just put it in face to face real quick. So, and you have a comment that makes me go, "Huh, I feel like that was a little... I felt like that was a jab." If you feel that, you can ask the question, "Should I, should I read into that comment?"

   6. SPSpeaker5:05

      Mm, yeah. That's great, because w- w- the way you're saying it is, is neutral, the way you're saying-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:08

      Yes

   8. SPSpeaker5:08

      ... it's, it's from the heart.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:10

      Right.

   10. SPSpeaker5:10

       Right? And, and it's more like a confused or curious, as opposed to accusatory.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:14

       Exactly. And, or I love this, this, uh, question phrasing, because it works with a lot of different things, is asking, beginning with, "Did you mean?"

   12. SPSpeaker5:25

       Mm.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:25

       "Did you mean for that to come across short? Did you, did you mean to sound upset?"

   14. SPSpeaker5:29

       "Did you mean to be passive-aggressive?"

   15. JFJefferson Fisher5:31

       Yeah.

   16. SPSpeaker5:32

       Well, uh-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher5:33

       Uh, maybe-

   18. SPSpeaker5:33

       Uh, maybe not

   19. JFJefferson Fisher5:33

       ... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker5:33

       Yeah, we'll strike that one out.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher5:34

       Yeah, yeah. You know when-

   22. SPSpeaker5:35

       Okay

   23. JFJefferson Fisher5:36

       ... you w- you, but if you said, if you, uh, said something as simple as, "Did you mean to sound upset?"

   24. SPSpeaker5:43

       Yes.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher5:43

       Right?

   26. SPSpeaker5:44

       That's great, 'cause yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher5:45

       Most likely, the response you're gonna get is, "Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm-"

   28. SPSpeaker5:48

       That's true

   29. JFJefferson Fisher5:49

       ... "I'm gonna, no, no, no. I was doing this. I was doing this." And they'll-

   30. SPSpeaker5:51

       Um

6. 5:52 – 6:35

   Why we assume the worst in messages: the ‘Okay’ effect and negative reading bias

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:52

      ... justify or explain more, because sometimes, especially in email, we read the negative. In text message, w- we hardly ever- ... read the positive into someone's words. We read the negative.

   2. SPSpeaker6:06

      Right.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:06

      We love the negative. So if I just responded to your text, "Okay," you're gonna go, "What kind of okay is this?"

   4. SPSpeaker6:14

      Oh, yeah, for Gen Z, that gives them, like, anxiety attacks now.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:16

      Is that right?

   6. SPSpeaker6:17

      Yeah.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:17

      I had no clue. Well, i- if you have this just, "Okay," it's usually, "Okay," like, it's just the worst possible thing because you don't, you don't, you can't do anything with it. You don't know how to read into that. So typically, we read the negative. "Okay, I guess you're upset with me. I guess you hate me."

7. 6:35 – 8:11

   Handling a credit stealer: address it privately, then make a specific ask

   1. SPSpeaker6:35

      What about the credit stealer, the person who takes credit for group work or reframes your ideas as their own in front of the boss?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:41

      Oh.

   3. SPSpeaker6:41

      What should you... Should you confront them, or should you find a way to get it back to the boss that they're a credit stealer?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher6:48

      Yeah, so what I would do is... Huh, I don't think I've ever been asked this. I wouldn't do it right then and there and go, "Uh-uh, that's my idea," in front of the boss.

   5. SPSpeaker6:56

      No. Yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher6:56

      Then that makes you look-

   7. SPSpeaker6:57

      Bad

   8. JFJefferson Fisher6:58

      ... needy.

   9. SPSpeaker6:58

      Yes, needy and yeah.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:00

       Yeah, so what I would do is talk to that person after the meeting and begin with a, "Did you mean to, to give them my idea?"

   11. SPSpeaker7:08

       That's great. Did you mean to? I'm just loving this-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher7:10

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker7:10

       ... did you mean to? I need to find-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher7:12

       It's great

   15. SPSpeaker7:12

       ... ways I can use this more. Yes. Did you mean to, yeah, take credit for my idea or to give... Yes.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher7:17

       Right. So you s- "Did you mean to give, you know, take the credit for, for my idea or not?" Or you can say, "Did you mean to not mention my name in that idea?"

   17. SPSpeaker7:26

       Right.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher7:27

       So because you're, now you're really getting strategic. Did you mean not... Did you mean-

   19. SPSpeaker7:31

       Yes

   20. JFJefferson Fisher7:31

       ... to not bring up my name-

   21. SPSpeaker7:32

       Love it

   22. JFJefferson Fisher7:32

       ... when you mentioned that? The response you're gonna get most likely is the, "Oh, no, I just, I totally forgot." They're not gonna go, "Yes, I-"

   23. SPSpeaker7:39

       Okay, then what would you say to that? I would say, "Then can you please tell-

   24. JFJefferson Fisher7:43

       Mm-hmm. Do you mind? Yeah

   25. SPSpeaker7:43

       ... do you mind telling the boss or..." Right.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher7:45

       Yes. Yeah, then-

   27. SPSpeaker7:46

       Do you mind adding my name?

   28. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

       Exactly. Uh, so then I would make the ask for it. Then would it, um, would it be a bad time for us to do X, Y, and Z? Or would us to, um, would you mind raising that the next time we talk about this, or do you mind sending an email? Now, whatever that is, uh, you're saying, "I... Then I would love to have you add the mention," or, "It would mean a lot to me if you added the mention to-

   29. SPSpeaker8:10

       Mm-hmm

   30. JFJefferson Fisher8:10

       ... X, Y, and Z."
8. 8:11 – 9:42

   Dealing with micromanagers: understand the fear and negotiate small autonomy

   1. SPSpeaker8:11

      What about the micromanager, right? Your boss who doesn't trust you to do your job. They hover. They over-correct. They nitpick unnecessarily.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:20

      So that's a symptom of them, not you.

   3. SPSpeaker8:22

      Yep.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:23

      And there's not much you can physically, verbally do to just change somebody's behavior 'cause you can really only control what you can. So how do you manage somebody who's-

   5. SPSpeaker8:35

      Yeah, you'll manage... You're really just managing it.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher8:37

      Yeah. This is what comes to mind at least right now is if I can communicate with them to give me one little thing, give me one thing that is my own, and once you complete that task, show them that you can complete another more. And it's best to have these in little, bitty conversations to where you have complete autonomy over something. And it's, you never wanna make it... Like, what I compare micromanaging to is somebody is feeling like they are on the elevator, and they feel like the elevator's gonna burst out from them.

   7. SPSpeaker9:13

      Mm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher9:13

      So they wanna press every floor. They wanna check every little thing that you're doing because they're afraid something's gonna get dropped, and it's again the fear of, it's a fear within themselves, not, not of you. So if you can in conversation try to say, you know, "I would love to have full autonomy over this little thing," or make that suggestion, and if this is gonna... If I can reach that, then I'd like a little bit more. It depends on context, but that's the mindset you wanna go into.

9. 9:42 – 11:02

   Liked vs respected: why likability creates longer-lasting influence

   1. SPSpeaker9:42

      Let's move on to strangers and the art of winning people over. There's the age-old question: Is it better to be liked or to be respected?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher9:51

      Oh.

   3. SPSpeaker9:52

      What's your take?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher9:53

      Better to be liked because the person who is liked will naturally get more respect. Uh, and it lasts, it lasts a lot longer. The people who like you are people who want to do things with you, for you, uh, together. It's... I find that if you can make people want to be around you, then you're going to get more people who want to do things willingly rather than out of fear.

   5. SPSpeaker10:20

      I agree with you except maybe in a work setting, right? Because when you have strong relationships and goodwill, people are motivated to work for you. But if you come across as competent, then, like, if... When people respect you for your competence, like, I feel that is also a very lasting influence. I mean, you hear about, like, bosses who are just terrible human beings, but people, everybody wants to work for them.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher10:43

      And then nobody's-

   7. SPSpeaker10:45

      Then nobody misses them

   8. JFJefferson Fisher10:45

      ... nobody's sad when they die. I mean, like-

   9. SPSpeaker10:47

      Yeah, that's true

   10. JFJefferson Fisher10:47

       ... and it's like, what, I mean, what-

   11. SPSpeaker10:48

       That's true

   12. JFJefferson Fisher10:48

       ... what kind of legacy [laughs] do you wanna leave? Like, and I think there's a difference too of somebody who's competent, and they're resilient and all these under- other wonderful things that you can absolutely be respected.

   13. SPSpeaker11:00

       And you can-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher11:00

       I can be liked and be respected.

10. 11:02 – 11:14

    How to gain instant trust: smile, eye contact, and pacing your presence

    1. SPSpeaker11:02

       You absolutely... I mean, the, the ideal is to be both. So if we wanna be liked, in terms of first impressions, how do we gain instant trust?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher11:10

       One would be smile a lot, more than you think.

    3. SPSpeaker11:13

       I always say that, eye contact and smile.

11. 11:14 – 12:26

    The ‘music’ metaphor for personality: becoming someone people can relax around

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:14

       Yeah, eye contact and smile. And for people who have trouble with eye contact, a little trick is to end your sentences looking at their eyes rather than feeling like you have to stare at their eyes the whole entire time. Two is pace your conversation, so slow it down. What you're wanting to do is make it very calm and easy for them to be around you and wanna listen to you. So I like to compare it to listening to different types of music. So again, 'cause remember the music thing.

    2. SPSpeaker11:44

       Yeah, yeah.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher11:45

       So think of the people you like to be around and apply a song to their personality.

    4. SPSpeaker11:51

       Wow, this is getting-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher11:51

       Or a band

    6. SPSpeaker11:51

       ... like, very technical. Okay.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher11:53

       A, like a band to their person.

    8. SPSpeaker11:54

       Apply a song. Okay.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher11:54

       Yeah, there's some people who are like, make you anxious because everything that they do is like a high-energy rock music where it's just always crazy. There are other people who are like easy listening where it's a lot slower where you go, "Oh, I kinda like... I could put this on and listen to it all day." There are just different types of wavelengths and frequencies that we just enjoy hearing

    10. SPSpeaker12:17

        Yeah

    11. JFJefferson Fisher12:17

        So if you wanna... It's like those same per- type of people that you go, "Ah, they just feel really warm."

    12. SPSpeaker12:22

        Yes.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher12:22

        How do you, how do you explain that to people that just feel warm?

12. 12:26 – 14:19

    Trial lawyer lessons: concise truth-telling and the ‘well vs waterfall’ principle

    1. SPSpeaker12:26

       So okay, so tell us about some of your trial tactics, right? Like, what, how does body language and speech affect strangers, and how do you establish yourself as a truth teller? 'Cause I feel like you have to do that in your job every day in front of juries, right? Like, what do juries teach us about human nature?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher12:43

       What to do, what not to do. Um, I find that trial attorneys, we want to persuade a jury to find in favor for my client. Now, there are limitations because I can only argue the facts that I'm given. I can't choose my facts, and I have to argue it within the law. I can't choose what law applies. So when I am getting information or I'm wanting to, uh, make a point to somebody, it's very crucial that I am very concise. So good trial attorneys, you take 40 pages and you turn it into two sentences. And so same thing with, like, my content. I could talk way longer than 47 seconds or 30 seconds. You have to find ways to make it really concise to just the essentials of what matters. And w- how does that translate? It means when you're in conversations, especially difficult conversations, the less you say, the more you mean.

    3. SPSpeaker13:39

       Mm.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher13:39

       Uh, it's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Or more it's, you say something, the more it sounds like you don't know enough about it. So when you have to give information to somebody or respond, you wanna keep your sentences very short and very concise. It's much, much better, I like to term it as instead of being a waterfall of information, you wanna be a well to where they always find, like, they just want a little bit more at a time.

    5. SPSpeaker14:09

       And you know what? I can actually think of people that I know who are, yeah, people who are wells and people who are waterfalls. I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna use that to, like, distinguish between friends now.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher14:18

       Oh, cool.

13. 14:19 – 18:01

    Voice, pacing, and vulnerability: how to be remembered and lower defenses

    1. SPSpeaker14:19

       I love it. Um, and then how about using voice and vulnerability to persuade?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher14:23

       Voice and vulnerability.

    3. SPSpeaker14:24

       Yeah.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher14:25

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker14:26

       'Cause you talk about how you use that in, in your courtroom.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher14:29

       Mm-hmm. The people who talk fast are the people who are typically not listened to in a courtroom because it's very hard to keep up with them. You have a lot of different people who have different styles, and when I can slow my words down, especially on important points, the more they're going to be remembered. 'Cause at the end of the day, that's what I want these 12 people to do, remember. When they go back to the liberations and it's been two weeks, three weeks of trial, I'm gonna need them to remember certain things, and other times they won't. So if I can slow my words down, there's, has, they have more-

    7. SPSpeaker15:03

       Weight

    8. JFJefferson Fisher15:03

       ... punch. Like, there's a difference between me saying, "I already told you. I, I'm, I'm not gonna do that," versus, "I already told you. I'm not going to do that." Like, which one has more weight to it?

    9. SPSpeaker15:16

       Mm.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher15:16

        Which one shows I'm more in control, I have more confidence, I have more weight in the conversation that I'm not going to be moved? It's always the second one.

    11. SPSpeaker15:26

        And what about vulnerability?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher15:27

        Yeah, vulnerability is wonderful in conversation because it naturally removes people's defenses. If I can tell you before I'm having a conversation that I'm feeling nervous about it, y- you're not gonna get upset or, like, "Nervous? How dare you?" It's like, "Oh, no, it's okay. We c- we can talk. What's going on?"

    13. SPSpeaker15:43

        That almost makes the other person want to protect you.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher15:45

        Yeah. We now wanna almost kinda take your hand in the conversation.

    15. SPSpeaker15:48

        Yeah.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher15:48

        "No, I'm, I'm listening. I'm listening." So there's a guy who I, I've, I have not had a trial against him, but I've seen him, and he is not a guy who's very tall and or, or big. He's, he's a smaller guy. And in trial, he gets very nervous in front of other people, which is very weird as a trial attorney, but it happens. And he tells them-

    17. SPSpeaker16:09

        Why did he choose to go into this profession?

    18. JFJefferson Fisher16:11

        Because he's, he's passionate about advocating for people.

    19. SPSpeaker16:14

        Mm.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher16:14

        I mean, it's, it's the justice element. It's wanting to help-

    21. SPSpeaker16:16

        Yeah

    22. JFJefferson Fisher16:16

        ... people for the right reasons, and he does such a masterful job. When he's in the courtroom, he'll tell the jury, he'll go, "I, now, just, just so you know, I, I, I, I get a little nervous in, in front of people talking."

    23. SPSpeaker16:26

        Oh, that is so cute. [laughs]

    24. JFJefferson Fisher16:27

        And that's what every person in the jury thinks right there, okay? And you know what they do? They go, "I love this person. Forget the case. I don't care. Your client wins."

    25. SPSpeaker16:38

        [laughs]

    26. JFJefferson Fisher16:38

        Like, that's what happens.

    27. SPSpeaker16:40

        [laughs]

    28. JFJefferson Fisher16:40

        If they don't like the attorney, they're not going to like the client.

    29. SPSpeaker16:44

        Mm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher16:44

        If they don't like the attorney, you're going to lose. They're not gonna find in favor of somebody that they don't like, and they will find reasons for that. But when he, when he starts to kinda stutter and say, "I, I, I get nervous, but I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna represent my client," like, everybody in the courtroom just goes-
14. 18:01 – 20:37

    Stop trying to win arguments: unravel the knot and deepen the relationship

    1. SPSpeaker18:01

       So my, my favorite quote of yours is that smart people never win arguments because you lose the relationship.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher18:07

       Yeah. Uh, if, when you set out to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. It is this idea that you can, if you set out to win every argument- ... y- all you do is win their contempt. Y- you've won to be the first to apologize most likely, and you lose their confidence. You lose their trust. You lose their respect, the connection. It's this idea that you can still win an argument and still be wrong. It, it, it, it does nothing.

    3. SPSpeaker18:35

       Yeah.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher18:35

       It does nothing. And so when you start to pull your way and I start to pull mine, all we do is make the knot tighter. It makes it harder to undo, and it takes longer for us to undo the knot. So instead of seeing arguments as something to win, I want you to see them as something to unravel because it's, all that it is, uh, arguments are just a window into somebody's struggle in that, in that moment. What are they truly struggling with? And if you just keep tugging and I just keep tugging, it takes a very long time to undo that knot. If I can be quick to apologize, well, it's very easy to loosen that knot.

    5. SPSpeaker19:10

       Mm. Yeah, yeah. Again, the de-escalation.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher19:11

       But, yeah. But the, the harder I squeeze onto that-

    7. SPSpeaker19:14

       Hang on. Oh, it's tight

    8. JFJefferson Fisher19:14

       ... apology and I'm never gonna give it from you, we're just, it's, it, it, it'll take two weeks, it'll take six months, it'll take a year before we undo that knot to have an actual conversation again.

    9. SPSpeaker19:25

       Yeah. I love that analogy. And, and I feel that when we think of them as difficult conversation-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher19:30

        From you

    11. SPSpeaker19:31

        ... arguments-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher19:31

        Just, it's, it, it-

    13. SPSpeaker19:32

        ... if we handle them well, it actually is an opportunity to deepen a relationship.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher19:36

        Yeah.

    15. SPSpeaker19:36

        Like, when I think about the relationships I've been in, usually after you have that difficult conversation, then you, you come away thinking, "Oh, I have more of a connection-"

    16. JFJefferson Fisher19:43

        Absolutely

    17. SPSpeaker19:43

        ... with that other person.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher19:43

        Because you've been through the difficult with them.

    19. SPSpeaker19:45

        Yeah.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher19:45

        Like, you, you've been through the hard stuff.

    21. SPSpeaker19:47

        Yes.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher19:47

        The ones you are-

    23. SPSpeaker19:48

        And that's meaningful.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher19:49

        It's super meaningful because you, you created bonding in, in that, in the struggle together. It's this idea that the deeper connection you wanna have some- with somebody, then the deeper tolerance you must have for difficult conversation. It's if you've only had surface level conversations, you're gonna have a surface level-

    25. SPSpeaker20:06

        Exactly

    26. JFJefferson Fisher20:06

        ... relationship.

    27. SPSpeaker20:07

        Yeah.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher20:08

        And the people that are able to go deep with you on something, es- even when it's hard, even when you're tearing up and sometimes you yell, and you've experienced that. Because that means I'm still here even when you're showing me all of your flaws. It means I'm still here and I still wanna be here with you, and that's, that, that means something to people.

    29. SPSpeaker20:27

        That is beautiful.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher20:29

        If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 20:38