How to Handle Conversations When You Know Someone is Lying

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   The dilemma: calling out a lie vs. letting it slide

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Somebody just told you something, but you know it's a lie. If you call it out, well, that's just gonna be worse. They're gonna double down on it. But if you leave it alone, well, that can be just as bad. On today's episode, it's all about how to respond to a liar. [upbeat music] Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm gonna ask you to follow this podcast, and if you would, please leave a review. I wanna let you know that my new book, The Next

2. 0:30 – 1:00

   Tool #1 — Pause and delay: “I need to come back to this conversation.”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      Conversation, is officially out on pre-order, and I'll have the links for it in the notes. And as always, if you have any topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments, and I'll be reading them. When somebody tells you something that you know to be a lie, number one, take a pause and say, "I need to come back to this conversation. I need to come back to this conversation." If they're telling you the truth, no problem. They're gonna say, "Okay, take your time." But if they're not telling the truth, oh, they're not gonna like it, because it's telling them that you're not buying it.

3. 1:00 – 1:30

   Tool #2 — Name the intuition: “Something feels off.”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:00

      They're gonna have this big overreaction and say things like, "Well, what, what do you think happened?" Or, "What, you think I'm lying?" They're gonna try and reconstruct the narrative while you're talking. Number two, you can also say, "Something feels off." That something feels off. If they're telling the truth, they're not gonna have any problem with it. They're gonna try and work through it and say, "Well, what, what feels off? Let's talk, let's talk about it." But if they're not, oh, they're gonna just spiral. They're going to try and actually gaslight you and challenge your sense of reality and say things like, "You are literally

4. 1:30 – 2:02

   Tool #3 — Strategic silence (10–15 seconds) to let them unravel

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:30

      insane right now," or, "Do you know what, what you even sound like? You're crazy." Number three, you can say nothing at all. 10 to 15 seconds of silence, and in that silence, liars actually start to talk to themselves. They'll start to say things like, "What, what, what are you, what, what are you worried about? That, that's not even me. You know? Why, why would I even say something that's, that's not the truth?" And they'll start to just falter and flip and get really defensive, and that's your sign that you're dealing with a liar. Now, I wanna make sure and tell you that this is not a one-size-fits-all.

5. 2:02 – 2:33

   Important caveat: over-explaining isn’t always lying

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

      There are personalities, people who may be neurodivergent or people who are more prone to over-explaining things or needing to elaborate on things, that make them sound like they may not be telling the truth or that they may be lying or they're trying to construct things in a certain way. That's not the indicator. I don't want you to think that people who have to talk a lot necessarily are lying to you. The key, the indicator that I like to see or that I look for, is a big

6. 2:33 – 3:34

   The real indicator: disproportionate overreaction and defensiveness

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:33

      overreaction. Where we might be talking at a level three, and as soon as I may try to challenge a little bit of the fact to say, "That doesn't seem to match up to me. Something feels off," they go all the way to, to 12, where all of a sudden, they are highly defensive. They are on the attack. They are starting to say things that are ugly. They are starting to challenge in a way that it is not meshing with the level of a three that we were previously talking at. So when you see this big heightened overreaction followed by major defensiveness, that's your indication that, ah, I need to trust my gut here. I need to listen to myself. Uh, not just what they're saying, but really w- what my sense is, because every one of us, you and I and everybody, have a sixth sense about us when we can tell somebody is not telling the truth, somebody is not being entirely genuine. So I don't want you to think that just because they're elaborating or over-explaining, they're trying to pull one over on you. Everybody has different ways.

7. 3:34 – 4:34

   Why delay works: liars hate time, distance, and “research”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:34

      And you're gonna know based upon the personality and specifically what you're talking about. Maybe you're talking about something in a relationship, maybe some kind of fact that you know to be true, and they're trying to push you another way. Just be careful about it and understand that one size does not fit all. One thing about liars is that they don't like delay. Whenever you add distance between what they said and when you believe or don't believe what they said, they just twist in the wind. They hate it, because it tells them that you are not taking the bait. They want that immediate reaction. They want you to just continue to go along as if everything they said is fine. They want to be a smooth liar. They want everything to be just fine for you to take their story. But the more suspicious you are, the more they will push back at you. Understand that those who tell the truth, they really have no problem with it. "You take all the time you need. I know my truth is my truth." So let's put it in a innocent example. Let's

8. 4:34 – 6:07

   Truth vs. lie reactions illustrated with a simple breakfast example

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:34

      say you ask me, you said, "Jefferson, what did you eat for breakfast this morning?" And I said, "Oatmeal." And they go, "I don't, I don't, I don't know about that. Are you lying to me?" I say, "No." And the more defensive they got, the less I'm gonna get upset about it, because I know I'm telling the truth. I know I, I, what I ate. You need to take a break from the conversation. You need to think about something. Something feels off to you. Okay, let's talk about it. Why does it feel off? But I know what I did. I don't have to hide anything. But if I'm telling a lie, well, then I'm gonna get more defensive that you're not buying it. So often when people are delaying that conversation, the more liars are gonna twist off. Just be prepared for that. While I like to start off with number one of, "This is something that I need to come back to," when you say, "I need to come back to this conversation," or, "I need to think about this," it's delaying it. You're saying, "Mm, okay, I hear you. I need to do some thought on my own, process this, and then come back." In other words, "I need to do some research." Liars don't like you to do research. They want you to just buy exactly what they said. So understand that that is something that is gonna be part of that package when you say, "I need some time to think about this." And it also empowers you to say, "Look, I, I know what I heard, but I also know what I know. I know my facts. So I'm gonna take some time with this, and I'm gonna think things out." That's the way to respond in those situations. Another reason that I like number two, and that is something feels off, that is really easy for you to just say, "Something feels off." They're

9. 6:07 – 7:43

   Don’t take the bait: handling gaslighting, insults, and victim-flips

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:07

      gonna say, "What's, what's wrong?" You go, "Something, something feels off." People who are telling the truth have no problem talking with you through it. "Okay, just let's, let's talk about it. What, what feels off? Let's talk." People who are liars don't wanna talk. They don't wanna talk. They just want you to believe. They want you to take it hook, line, and sinker, so they will have this big reaction. Don't be afraid. And when, if in that moment they try to, what they call gaslight you, or try to say that you're... Attack your character, they attack you personally and say, "You're crazy. You're insane. Do you know how literally insane you sound right now?"

   2. SPSpeaker6:41

      Right.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:42

      Don't take that kind of bait. That's all it is, it's just bait. They're gonna try and get a rise out of you because the more upset that these people can make you, people with toxic traits or narcissistic tendencies, they're trying to get a rise out of you to get you more upset, and now you're fighting about the lie, and you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna keep going, keep going, all the way to a level 12, and then they'll flip on you. They'll flip and say, "I don't know why you're always attacking me. You know, you never believe me. You remember what you did four months ago?" Something that they bring up the past. And all of a sudden they're pointing it out that they're the victim, and you're the one that's the attacker or the offender, just not believing them and never understanding them, and you don't really get them. And now all of a sudden you feel like you're in a position where they're wanting some kind of apology, and this is just another instance. Stay away from that. Listen to me, stay away from that. When you add silence and add delay, even 10, 15 seconds of silence makes a huge difference

10. 7:43 – 8:13

    Why silence beats accusation: avoid the ‘double down’ trap

    1. JFJefferson Fisher7:43

       when it comes to handling somebody who's a liar. Because if you were to say, if you were to point out right away, "That's a lie. You're a liar," you think they're gonna go, "Yep, you're right. Ah, dang, you got me. Ah, you're so good. You got me"? Absolutely not. They're gonna say, "What? No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I'm a liar? Oh, yeah, me? What about you?" And all of a sudden it's just gonna get worse. They'll double down on it, and you're gonna have to peel back layer upon layer. But if you just give the silence, they will have that conversation for you. They will have the conversation in their head, "Oh, my

11. 8:13 – 11:17

    Real-world story: deposition tactic exposes a texting-while-driving lie

    1. JFJefferson Fisher8:13

       gosh, they're not buying. Okay, I need to, I need to tweak. I need to pivot. I need to say something else, or I need to a little bit more reveal the truth" without you having to say a thing. Now that, that is true control. I'm gonna share a story real quick with you. When I was... Probably about three years ago, I had a case, and often in car wrecks, a major issue is texting while driving, as you can imagine. Now, people don't like admitting that they're texting while driving. Everybody does it, and it's, it's terrible. It's a major, major cause of commercial and personal auto case accidents. So a part of the question generally in a deposition is whether somebody was texting. Well, I was talking to this guy, taking his deposition. He was on the other side of me, and I asked him, I said, "You were, were, were you texting while driving?" Automatically said, "No. No. I, I never text while I drive." Problem number one, he just said, "I never." Never is an absolute, so if you're gonna use an absolute, if you're gonna say never, it better be never. So first thing he said was, "I never text while I drive." Well, here's the thing. I already had his cell phone records. I had all of his mobile records. You don't know what people are texting. You just can see the transmission of when they send a text and when it was received. I already had all that because his attorney gave it to me. It's part of the trial. So I already know I have that, but I don't bring it up right away. Instead, I just give about 10 seconds of nothing. 10 seconds of nothing. And I just kinda looked around the room, looked at him for a second, and in that moment, within not even 10 seconds, he said, "Well, I mean, I, you know, I, I sometimes I do, but most, most of the time I don't." Right there, okay, he just, what they call in Texas, crawfished, in the South meaning s- you're, you're backing up. You're backing up what, what you just said. You're actually, uh, going back on it, saying, "Well," I mean, he went from, "I always" or "I never" to, which is an absolute, to, "Well, I mean, I, I sometimes do," but I wasn't doing it right then. All I did was repeat his lie. I just repeated it. I said, "You never text while you drive." All of a sudden he started like, "Well, I mean, I mean, I, I, I, I mean, sometimes I do. Sometimes I do." And I gave it a little bit more time, and then I followed it up with, "You were texting your coworker that day, weren't you?" At that point, he was so far off the ledge that you're inviting him to come back, and at that point he was just kind of relieved. He's like, "Yeah, I, I think I, I think I was. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure that I was." And that, at that point, I just tweak it a little bit more. "You were. It's not a you think you were. You were." "Yes, I, I was." Boom. Right then. I don't have to call him out as a liar. I don't have to have this big ordeal. I don't have to try and hurt his credibility in a harmful way. I can still be respectful and give him just a chance to walk off the plank. Often just giving that a moment of silence and letting them hear their thoughts and saying, "Nobody in this room is believing this right now." They

12. 11:17 – 15:19

    Listener Q&A: how to explain without sounding deceptive

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:17

       understand that all their feet, uh, the floor underneath them, the carpet underneath them just got pulled. Uh, they have nothing else to stand on, and they'll go back to safety because they know that their lie is not being taken. Now we're at the point of the podcast where I get to read a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my newsletter, I send a communication tip once a week right to your inbox where you can ask me questions and I get to respond to it. It's a lot of fun for me, and I always pull one so I can talk about it in the podcast. This one is from April. April is in Nashville, Tennessee. "Jefferson, I love your stuff so much." Thank you, April. "I have an issue. Whenever I'm trying to explain something, sometimes I try to... I am elaborating too much, where I'm trying to overexplain, but some people feel like I am telling a lie when I'm really not. I'm just trying to clarify. Can you help give me some guidance there?" April, I... You're not the only one. All right? That's the first thing is you're not the only one. There are a lot of people who feel like they just need to get it all out. They just need to get it all out. But sometimes the more that you say, the more it looks like you're trying to hide the truth. Let me tell you the difference. All right? It's when you're getting to the point. Often, if, if I were gonna ask you a question that is generally a yes or no question, oh, you know, w- or something that is a very clear fact, like what time did you get home last night, or did you stop by the store yesterday, is a very clear thing. Did you... Is it a yes or a no? Do you have a time or do you not have a time? Often people look like they're lying when they don't say that yes or no or that fact right out of the gate. Instead, they leave it for the very end. So if I were gonna ask you, you know, did you go to the store yesterday, which is a yes or no, they'll go, "Well, I mean, it's, it, uh, well, I, I mean," and they'll start talking about, "Well, first I went here and then I went there," and they lay out this timeline. There are a lot of people who, uh, they will have to say a timeline first. Like, "Well, I went here, then you said that, and then I did this," and they need to construct it in a certain way to get it all out. There's nothing wrong with that. You just have to be careful to make sure that they're, when somebody's giving you that timeframe, they're not reconstructing it in a way that does not match what you know of the facts. But w- what causes the problem, April, is when you wait till the very end to say that yes or a no. If I ask you what time it is, and you start talking about something else, and at the whole point I'm thinking, "W- why aren't you answering my question? Why aren't you answering my question?" You're just trying to explain. What I hear is you're trying to delay and you're trying to hide. What can eliminate that is when you give the, the answer, your point, right out of the gate and then say, "Can I explain?" Period. Did you go to the store yesterday? "Yes, I did. Can I share with you something else?" All right? That's gonna give you a whole lot more room to, to say, "I'd like to... I, I need to get some stuff off my chest." Or there's sometimes a question isn't a yes or a no. Lots of times my clients get, uh, in a deposition, they get asked questions, and what I train them on is some questions aren't a yes or a no. They're not black and white. But attorneys sometimes will try and corner them, and some people will try to corner you into certain conversations. Instead, you just answer with, "That's not a yes or no question for me. That question can't be answered in a yes or a no." That's what I teach them. "I can't answer that question in a yes or a no. Can I explain?" Or, "I'm happy to explain," and, "I'm happy to share some more on it." So I don't want you to feel pressured that just because you need to explain things it means that you're not telling the truth. That's not, that's not what that means. All that means is you just need to rearrange the structure of your sentences. Give the, the point at the very beginning, then explain rather than first thing out of your mouth is, "Let me explain." As soon as you say that first without giving the point, so if I ask you a question and you say, "Let me explain," people go, "Oh, great, you're not gonna give me the answer. You're hiding the answer. You're delaying the answer." And it makes you look more like you're not telling the truth. So what I would encourage you

13. 15:19 – 16:08

    Wrap-up: three phrases to handle liars and keep control

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:19

       to do is try to say the yes or no, the answer, direct answer, upfront, and then follow up with an explanation that supports that answer, not the other way around. Thank you for listening to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, I'm gonna ask you to follow it and if you would, just leave a review. Today we learned that when you're dealing with a liar, one of the best things to say is, "I need to come back to this conversation." Number one, "I need to come back to this conversation." Number two, you can say something like, "That sounds off," or, "That feels off." Anything that says this doesn't feel like the norm. Something doesn't feel right about this. And number three, if you need to just say nothing at all. Silence is often the best tool for liars to spin out of control and reveal that they weren't telling you the truth. And as always, you can try that and follow me.

Episode duration: 16:08