How to Handle Tricky Conversations with Family & Friends

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Using “but” can erase love and goodwill in family conversations

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      What is the overall approach to communicating with friends and family, especially when emotions run high? And I do feel that for friends and family, they also know how... Well, family especially also know how to push your buttons.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:11

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker0:11

      So it is, maybe it is somewhat similar to partner.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:14

      Right.

   5. SPSpeaker0:14

      But what are some other things we should think about here?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:17

      Whenever you're talking to family members, again, there's that layer of love, maybe, maybe not. I mean, that you're stuck with these people, your close friends. Here is a phrase that I've seen go wrong, and it is using the word but in the wrong place. So let's say we've been best friends forever, and I say like, "I love you, but you're driving me crazy," or, "This is never gonna work," or, "This is..." Whenever that happens, you just erased the I love you. You've erased it. The but in a sentence has a way of just deleting everything that comes before it. Like for example, if I was like, "This is a wonderful podcast. No, I really like this. This studio's great. Um, but-"

   7. SPSpeaker0:58

      [laughs]

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:58

      And I just decided, like that, I, I just decided to say something else. It doesn't matter what I say, I've just erased everything around it. "This is a great proposal. But what I'm thinking is..." You just took away from it. Instead, you wanna use the word and.

   9. SPSpeaker1:11

      Mm-hmm.

2. 1:12 – 2:14

   Prime the hard message: “I’m telling you this because I care”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:12

      And builds onto sentences. So in, in everyday conversation or with, uh, somebody you're related with, if you can prime the, the conversation with, "I'm telling you this because... I'm telling you this because I love you. I'm telling you this because I care. I, I'm telling you this because you're my best friend," and then you say the hard thing, it's gonna go a whole lot better than, "Listen, you know, we've been great friends forever, and you're, you're just wonderful. Uh, but..." It's like when somebody has to break up with somebody.

   2. SPSpeaker1:44

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:44

      It's like, uh, "Look, you're, you're great. I think you're wonderful," and the person on the other end is just waiting for the but.

   4. SPSpeaker1:51

      Yeah, they're, yeah, they're, yeah, they're waiting for the but.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:53

      They're waiting for the but.

   6. SPSpeaker1:54

      Whereas if you said, "You're wonderful, you're great."

   7. JFJefferson Fisher1:56

      And

   8. SPSpeaker1:56

      "... and I think we should be j- be just be friends."

   9. JFJefferson Fisher1:58

      Uh, yeah. Oh yeah, exactly.

   10. SPSpeaker1:59

       Right?

   11. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

       I think you're, I think you're wonderful. I think you're great.

   12. SPSpeaker2:01

       That, that's a new breakup line, people.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

       Yeah, exactly. "I think you're wonderful, I think you're great, and I know that life is pushing us in other directions." I mean, just whatever it is.

   14. SPSpeaker2:10

       Yeah, it just sounds nicer.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:12

       Yeah, because you're not taking away from what's, what's happening.

3. 2:14 – 3:05

   Honesty vs etiquette: delivery is the difference

   1. SPSpeaker2:14

      And, and you know what's funny? Some, a lot of people come up to me and they say, "You know, Sarah, um, I wish... I, I, I, I don't have good etiquette because I'm too honest." And I'm like, "What? Like, since when?"

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:25

      [laughs] I'm too perfect.

   3. SPSpeaker2:26

      Or, or... Yeah.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:26

      Yeah. What does that mean?

   5. SPSpeaker2:27

      Or, or they'll, or they'll be like, "Oh, I have ba- really bad etiquette because, um, I'm not good at lying." And it's like, wait. Like, th- okay, this person has no idea what the spirit of etiquette means. But I, I often just say, it's n- it's, it's more about how you say things.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:41

      Uh-huh.

   7. SPSpeaker2:41

      And with etiquette, you can still absolutely say what you mean and mean what you say, it's just about the delivery, right? And, and so saying the and instead of the but is such a powerful tip to use.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:53

      Yeah, and it's very small.

   9. SPSpeaker2:55

      It's very small.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher2:55

       V- very, very small, but it's a big, big change, especially if you're giving feedback to somebody or criticism to somebody. It doesn't take away the, what they have.

4. 3:05 – 4:00

   The spirit of etiquette and how culture shapes what feels respectful

   1. SPSpeaker3:05

      Yeah.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:05

      Well, I'm very curious. What do you, what do you consider to be the spirit of etiquette?

   3. SPSpeaker3:09

      I always say etiquette is about putting people around you at ease.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:13

      Oh, I like that.

   5. SPSpeaker3:14

      Yeah. And, and etiquette, it, it's contextual. So I could do something in, in America and then do something in China, and it would be interpreted in a very different way. So it could be something as simple as, um, let's say I'm drinking a bowl of soup. Well, if you're in China or Japan, you wanna have a little slurp. You wanna do the little , 'cause it shows that it's tasty.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:37

      Wonderful. [laughs] That's great.

   7. SPSpeaker3:37

      Whereas if you, if you do that in France or England or in the US-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:41

      Yeah

   9. SPSpeaker3:41

      ... that would be very rude.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:42

       You know, in the South, in Texas, I think we'd be okay. Uh, yeah, with-

   11. SPSpeaker3:46

       With a little slurp?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher3:47

       We'd be okay with a little slurp. It's nothing wrong with it.

   13. SPSpeaker3:49

       Th- this is why I was formerly-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:51

       Yeah, I'm telling-

   15. SPSpeaker3:51

       ... a Southern gal

   16. JFJefferson Fisher3:51

       ... telling you.

   17. SPSpeaker3:52

       I believe this.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

       Come on to Texas. It's a lot of the same. A lot of the same. Very, very similar. [laughs]

   19. SPSpeaker3:58

       [laughs]

   20. JFJefferson Fisher3:58

       How cool. Making other people around you at ease. I like that.

5. 4:00 – 5:10

   Boundary basics: “No” is a complete sentence (and don’t justify)

   1. SPSpeaker4:00

      Yeah, that, that to me is what, what etiquette is really about. How do you set boundaries without guilt and respond when someone criticizes your choices or crosses a line, which is what relatives love to do?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher4:11

      Yes, they do. O- one is no is a complete sentence.

   3. SPSpeaker4:17

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:17

      So if you need to say no, that's all you need to say.

   5. SPSpeaker4:20

      I feel a lot of my, um, female girlfriends-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:24

      Mm-hmm

   7. SPSpeaker4:24

      ... for a lot of women, it's hard to have no as a complete sentence. We often feel like we need to justify things, like, "No, because..."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:31

      Right.

   9. SPSpeaker4:31

      But for men, it's just somehow men are just like, "No."

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:33

       Well, it's a, a little bit different probably in gender because, um, I... Well, lots of reasons, but-

   11. SPSpeaker4:40

       And, yeah, let's try not to get canceled-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:42

       Yeah, exactly

   13. SPSpeaker4:42

       ... in the process, right? [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:42

       Yeah, yeah. No, no. No Chinese subtitles for that.

   15. SPSpeaker4:45

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:45

       The, but the, the... Yeah. So number one would be no is a complete sentence if you need it. Two is no justifications. Whenever you need to lay a boundary, we like to try to make the other person feel comfortable with it, 'cause we don't want them to be disappointed, we don't want them to not like us. But typically when you add the justification, it just makes it weaker.

   17. SPSpeaker5:09

       Mm.

6. 5:10 – 7:12

   How to state a boundary calmly—and why pushback can mean it’s working

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:10

      And a, for example, let's say I need to lay a boundary about something and I need to say, "I don't respond to these kind of comments, and if you continue to say these kind of comments, this is gonna be the end of the conversation." Let's say in the, let's say with the, in this interview-

   2. SPSpeaker5:23

      And your, your delivery, by the way, is just so sweet.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:26

      It's etiquette.

   4. SPSpeaker5:28

      [laughs] Exactly.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:28

      It's just etiquette. It's what we're, it's what we're all about.

   6. SPSpeaker5:30

      [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:31

      Like in this, i- if this, uh, this was like an interview, I'd say, "I don't respond to those kind of questions, but if you keep asking me those kind of questions, this is the end of the interview."

   8. SPSpeaker5:38

      Well, you know what, what I'd do in, in, in, if it were an interview?

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:41

      Yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker5:41

       I would just respond with a completely different answer.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:44

       Oh.

   12. SPSpeaker5:44

       Like, just no-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:45

       That's also good

   14. SPSpeaker5:45

       ... yeah. That, that, that'd be my tack.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher5:46

       Respond what you wanna say.

   16. SPSpeaker5:47

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Exactly.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher5:48

       Exactly. Just forget the question-

   18. SPSpeaker5:50

       Yeah

   19. JFJefferson Fisher5:50

       ... and say what you wanna say. I find when people say their boundary, and they'll say, "Look, I don't respond to those kind of questions," I mean, I, I just feel like, you know, when somebody asks me these and I try to just start watering it down, I try to justify. It's the same thing with trying to tell somebody no. ... to, maybe they invited you to dinner or to that networ- networking event, and you say, "No, I can't because I'm just, I am so overwhelmed right now, and, you know, I need to go feed my cat, and I need to water my yard, and I've just been, you know, so stressed lately." And the more you say-

   20. SPSpeaker6:23

       Mm

   21. JFJefferson Fisher6:24

       ... the more the other person is just thinking, "Just tell me no."

   22. SPSpeaker6:28

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher6:28

       Like, "If you're making so many excuses, it's not... I can just tell you're not wanting to do this," where being direct would be more kind. Well, in boundaries it works the same way. It, it waters down your, your boundary, and the person that is most disappointed with your boundary is probably the person who's taking most advantage of it. And what I like to say is if your boundary, um, just because it makes somebody upset does not mean it's wrong. It just means that it's working. And so a lot of people need to assert more boundaries, not in the sense that all you do is put walls around yourself, but it's, it's, it's about feeling the effect of what just your voice alone can do and change in your life.

7. 7:12 – 8:21

   Role play #1: Handling unsolicited parenting advice with short neutral replies

   1. SPSpeaker7:12

      Well, let's do a little role play around friends and family, and we're gonna call it, what would Jefferson say?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher7:17

      Uh-oh.

   3. SPSpeaker7:17

      So this is the awkward family edition.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher7:19

      Okay.

   5. SPSpeaker7:19

      And scenario one is the unsolicited parenting advice. And by the way, all this is based on questions a lot of my etiquette students or etiquette followers have asked me, okay? So scenario one, the unsolicited parent- parenting advice where, you know, maybe a relative says something and you say, "We're doing what works for our family," and the relative says, "Well, back in my day, we didn't let kids have so much screen time. No wonder kids these days are so spoiled." And you're sitting there being like, "I appreciate your perspective, but..."

   6. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SPSpeaker7:48

      Jefferson, how do you respond without blowing up or giving in?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher7:52

      I would say exactly what you said, just take out the word but.

   9. SPSpeaker7:55

      Right.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:56

       I would just say, "I appreciate-

   11. SPSpeaker7:58

       "I appreciate your perspective," full stop

   12. JFJefferson Fisher8:00

       ... full stop. I appreciate your thoughts, or thank you for that, or thank you for your feedback. When you have very neutral, short statements, they can't do anything with it. Like, the shorter... What I even teach my own clients when they answer questions-

   13. SPSpeaker8:14

       In, in a quote

   14. JFJefferson Fisher8:15

       ... mm-hmm, yeah, is the longer answer you give, the more questions you're gonna get back.

   15. SPSpeaker8:20

       Right, 'cause you're giving them ammunition.

8. 8:21 – 10:26

   The power of nonverbal placeholders: “huh,” “mm-hmm,” and “good to know”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:21

      You're giving them more rope to make a knot with. So you just need to make it very, very short to where they can't do anything with it. So if I say, "Huh, interesting." Like, sometimes we are great at the non-verbal things or just where you're not really making words. You go, "Huh. Huh. Okay." Mm.

   2. SPSpeaker8:39

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher8:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPSpeaker8:39

      And, and yeah, people can't argue with a huh.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher8:41

      No. Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker8:41

      They're trying to think of how they should even interpret a huh.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher8:44

      Right, and there's a lot of ways to huh, you know? [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker8:47

      What are some of your favorite ways to huh? Tell us.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher8:49

      Oh, if you just go-

   10. SPSpeaker8:49

       What are the different huhs?

   11. JFJefferson Fisher8:51

       Well, my dad likes this one. Huh.

   12. SPSpeaker8:53

       [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       Like that right there is just my-

   14. SPSpeaker8:55

       Like a little, like a short... What, what is that? That's giving me... I'm trying to think what vibe is that. Huh.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

       Yeah.

   16. SPSpeaker8:58

       It's like a, like a, it's like I'm not buying it kind of vibe.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher9:02

       It's also a good to know is how I use it.

   18. SPSpeaker9:04

       Oh, good to know. Yes.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

       [laughs]

   20. SPSpeaker9:05

       A good to know huh.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher9:06

       [laughs] That's, it's more of like a good to, good to know. Or if somebody's asking me something and I don't really necessarily agree with it, but they're wanting to just give me my opin- give me their opinion on how I should agree with it, it might be a mm-hmm. Like, just one-

   22. SPSpeaker9:21

       Oh

   23. JFJefferson Fisher9:21

       ... of those. Like a, okay.

   24. SPSpeaker9:23

       Yes. Mm-hmm.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher9:23

       All right. Yeah.

   26. SPSpeaker9:24

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher9:24

       Just simple as that. But a- anytime you say, let's put it in verbal, uh, context, if somebody gives you that unsolicited feedback or advice, there's nothing wrong with just a thank you. Thank you, period. That's all. That's all you need to do. Because right then, what is their whole point in giving it to you? One is they're controlling, and they have their own control problems because you're not doing what they think you should be doing-

   28. SPSpeaker9:48

       Mm-hmm

   29. JFJefferson Fisher9:48

       ... because it's not what they would do.

   30. SPSpeaker9:49

       Mm-hmm.
9. 10:26 – 11:13

   Choose how much to invest: match your response to their role in your life

   1. SPSpeaker10:26

      The way I like to respond to these things is if, you know, if let's say that relative's like saying, you know, "No wonder the kids these days are spoiled."

   2. JFJefferson Fisher10:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPSpeaker10:35

      I like to say something like, "Yeah, well, you know, either they're on the screen or we're, you and I are not able to have an adult conversation 'cause they're jumping all over us."

   4. JFJefferson Fisher10:42

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker10:42

      "Would you pick your poison?" [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher10:43

      Yeah, exactly. Or you could say, "Yeah, you know, if, if we had just stone tablets like you, I'm sure we'd be bored real quick." You know, like, I mean, [laughs] if you wanna like just totally rip them. It, there is a, a sense of what is the value of your time-

   7. SPSpeaker10:57

      Mm-hmm

   8. JFJefferson Fisher10:58

      ... and how much space does this person take up?

   9. SPSpeaker11:00

      Mm.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher11:00

       What's, what's their worth to you? If they don't mean that much, give very little back.

   11. SPSpeaker11:05

       Yes, and the older I get, the more I think about that. My time is so valuable. I'm not g- not gonna give people who don't deserve it my time or attention.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

       Yeah.

10. 11:13 – 13:57

    Role play #2: “When are you having kids?”—assert choice or redirect with a question

    1. SPSpeaker11:13

       Okay, scenario two, the when are you having kids question, right? So your relative says, "So, when are you finally having a baby? You're not getting any younger." And you're sitting there being like, "Well, you know, we're just kind of enjoying life right now." And your re- relative says, "Well, don't wait too long. Family is everything."

    2. JFJefferson Fisher11:30

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker11:30

       What would Jefferson say?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher11:31

       Ooh. Okay. Let's say between somebody who's an acquaintance. Did you say, did you say who this person was?

    5. SPSpeaker11:37

       Yeah, I mean, it could be a relative. It could be a friend, sometimes your parents. In China, it's your parents are, are like when, when you're studying, they're like, "Don't date," and then the day you graduate, they're like, "Why are you not married?"

    6. JFJefferson Fisher11:49

       Oh. That's, yeah, that's very c- yeah, very culturally different.

    7. SPSpeaker11:52

       [laughs] That's China. Yeah, yeah.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher11:53

       Yeah. Well, also, also close to the South.

    9. SPSpeaker11:55

       Oh, see?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher11:56

        I would say, yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker11:56

        See, we are, yes, our cultures are one and the same.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher11:58

        We're pretty much the same thing.

    13. SPSpeaker11:59

        One and the same.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher11:59

        Yeah. You, you graduate high school, go get married. Yep. Uh, no, I think that it depends who is asking. So if, if it's an acquaintance or somebody you-

    15. SPSpeaker12:09

        No, let's do friends and family-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher12:10

        Okay. Okay

    17. SPSpeaker12:10

        ... 'cause we're in the friends and family section.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher12:12

        Let's do friends... Okay. Friends and family section. I would ask them... Well, here's two different techniques we could do.

    19. SPSpeaker12:17

        Okay.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher12:18

        One, if you feel very confident in that moment, it could say, you could say, "When I decide," or, "When I'm ready."

    21. SPSpeaker12:25

        Yeah. When I'm ready.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher12:26

        Yeah.

    23. SPSpeaker12:26

        Yeah. When I decide.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher12:26

        When I decide, when I'm ready, or I get to choose. A- anything that allows them to-

    25. SPSpeaker12:31

        Yeah, I get to choose. Love that

    26. JFJefferson Fisher12:33

        ... anytime you just remind them that-

    27. SPSpeaker12:35

        Yeah, it's my body

    28. JFJefferson Fisher12:36

        ... exact- when I want to.

    29. SPSpeaker12:37

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher12:38

        When I want to.
11. 13:57 – 15:59

    Role play #3: The friend who never pays you back—know the ‘cost’ or opt out

    1. SPSpeaker13:57

       Okay. What about scenario three? And I've, so many people have asked me this. The friend who never pays you back. So you're out to dinner again, the check comes, they forget again. So Jefferson, how do you confront a repeat offender without sounding petty or blowing up a friendship?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher14:12

       I just wouldn't eat with them.

    3. SPSpeaker14:14

       [laughs]

    4. JFJefferson Fisher14:14

       They, like the, the-

    5. SPSpeaker14:15

       Absolutely

    6. JFJefferson Fisher14:16

       ... yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker14:16

       That actually, that actually is, is, is what I've said in the past. Just don't, don't eat with them again.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher14:21

       Well, why-

    9. SPSpeaker14:21

       Why do you keep subjecting yourself to this?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher14:22

        Yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker14:22

        Because it's a choice. Like you... When I, when I have friends who come to me saying, "Oh my gosh, you won't believe what my friend did to me again," blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, you are actually letting her do that to you.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher14:33

        It's that, uh... What's that parable or the, uh, story of the scorpion and the frog? It's like you, it's just the nature of a scorpion to sting. Like you, there are certain animals that have their nature to do certain things. You don't be, don't be surprised when a snapping turtle snaps. Like there's [laughs] like the-

    13. SPSpeaker14:50

        Is this a Southern story?

    14. JFJefferson Fisher14:52

        Uh, might be. I don't think that-

    15. SPSpeaker14:53

        I love it

    16. JFJefferson Fisher14:53

        ... I don't think that-

    17. SPSpeaker14:53

        And we didn't, we didn't get this in China growing up.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher14:55

        Hey, this, the scorpion and the frog thing's a real thing.

    19. SPSpeaker14:58

        [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher14:58

        All right? I promise you. And, uh, look it up. You can look it up. Google it, whoever's listening. And it, it's this, the, the, the whole end of the story, the moral of the story is you cannot be surprised when-

    21. SPSpeaker15:11

        Yeah

    22. JFJefferson Fisher15:11

        ... it's somebody's nature-

    23. SPSpeaker15:12

        Yeah

    24. JFJefferson Fisher15:12

        ... and they behave the way that their nature has created them to be. And so somebody is never paying somebody back, they always flake, they always never live up to their side. That is their nature.

    25. SPSpeaker15:23

        Yeah.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher15:24

        So if you're gonna invite them to dinner, invite them-

    27. SPSpeaker15:26

        Your eyes wide open

    28. JFJefferson Fisher15:27

        ... and, yeah, then you should know I'm gonna be paying for this. If I want to join in this experience-

    29. SPSpeaker15:32

        Mm

    30. JFJefferson Fisher15:32

        ... this is the cost of that relationship.

Episode duration: 16:00