The Jefferson Fisher PodcastHow to Have Hard Conversations without Conflict Ft. Bobby Bones
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,599 words- 0:00 – 3:13
Working with friends for decades: building a show from trust and necessity
- JFJefferson Fisher
How do you have those harder conversations with friends, especially when you're working with them, to make sure you're not damaging... Like, you need to make a decision, and sometimes you need to be, "I need to say the boss thing," but you also don't wanna damage that relationship.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, the boundaries have to be discussed, uh, many times over just to be r- even reinstated.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I remember, I think, I, I don't think I went a day in high school where I didn't listen to Bobby Bones, Amy & Lunchbox, by the way.
- BBBobby Bones
What town? In Beaumont?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh-huh.
- BBBobby Bones
Oh, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah. 94.1.
- BBBobby Bones
Our pop, our pop days.
- JFJefferson Fisher
94.1, Top 40.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That was, like, that was the first time I was ever introduced, uh, but I don't think I ever had a morning that it wasn't, um, Bobby, Amy & Lunchbox. What, what is it like to be able to even now have, like, really close, I would imagine, very close friends, the people you've done a lot of life with, and Eddie, um, best friend, and you have, you do the music and everything, that you're still to this day are able to have really awesome conversations, uh, with and just do it for a living?
- BBBobby Bones
I think one of the coolest things that I've been able to do is hire all my friends, just generally speaking.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- BBBobby Bones
S- I've been with the whole show now for over 20 years, which is crazy. But also, I do the math, it means I'm getting older too. Like, my, my mortality comes out whenever I start thinking about how long we've been together.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, but it's awesome because my goal was to always just, like, work alongside people I liked.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
'Cause I saw, like, my stepdad. He worked in a mill. He did not really like the job that he had. He really did not like the people. He didn't have a close bond with them. So I always wanted to have something that I, like, enjoyed with people I enjoyed. But it was kind of a weird way that it all happened, because it was never my strategically, you know, uh, grandiose plan to have all my friends come into the show. We had no money.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so you just call the people that you know to come in and jump in with you. And so when I started that show and I was by myself and I had no co-host, it was, uh, who can I hire for cheap? And who do you hire for cheap? Well, your friends.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Your friends.
- BBBobby Bones
They'll come do it for free even.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so it, it was such an odd way to build that show, and at the time, I resented it a bit because the company wouldn't give me money to hire professional co-hosts-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- BBBobby Bones
... because they didn't know if they believed in the product. So I just grabbed all the people that I liked and that made me better, and now we've been together for a long time. A long time. It's crazy to think about when you think about, like, thinking of the numbers. It's been over 20 years with pretty much all of them. Even Eddie and I, he's my best friend, and we've done the radio show together for 13, 14 years, but we did television for another three or four before that, so we've been together, you know, 17, 18 years.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. And now not only do you have that close relationship, but I mean, they're also really professionals, like, at a craft now. I think that that's, that can be really easily overlooked of, I think, just any radio or a- television for that matter, of there's a certain craft to making sure that you keep kind of the ball in the air. Or do you find that it's just pure friendship that you're able to keep things rolling?
- 3:13 – 5:22
Boss hat vs. friend hat: how conflict can coexist with closeness
- BBBobby Bones
Oh, I think they've gotten really good at what they do. I also think it's a couple of hats. Like, I have to wear the hat of being the boss sometimes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And then I have to wear the hat of being the friend sometimes. But I think over the years, there's been a great understanding of when I have to switch those hats.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, because number one, I gotta make sure the ship is taken care of.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
And there are some difficult decisions that have to be made at times. So they are great at doing their job, but they're also great at knowing when they have to do their job at a higher level because it needs to be done that way. So I think that's been the hardest part about working with your friends, is you gotta be their boss too.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
And that ain't comfortable sometimes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
But at this point, we've done it for so long, it's a well-oiled machine. Um, it works, and nobody's left. You know, sometimes people will message in and be like, "Man, sometimes you guys sound like you hate each other," 'cause we're for, literally arguing about something.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Man, do you think we'd all be here 21, 22 years later together if anyone-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- BBBobby Bones
... really hated each other?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
I mean, to have the freedom to actually communicate openly and honestly with millions of people listening through radio or podcast, um, that, that is something that I don't really take for granted, because we've worked hard to be able to do that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
And the relationship is what really allows that to happen, because I've worked on other projects with other people, and you can't really do that unless there is a complete trust and comfortability.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. And that has to do... Like, it reminds me of, um, my, hearing my grandparents argue, you know? And like, you go, "God, I think they hate each other." It's like, no, they just, it's an, it's a morning thing, you know?
- BBBobby Bones
They have the freedom to say how they feel and not worry that the other one's gonna run away or leave or, or-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. Oh, my grandmother will look at me and just insult my grandfather about something. You know he doesn't take his medicine, you know? He never... And he's just, he's in a different world, you know? Because there's just been such that, that bond. But I, I, my audience, uh, Bobby's somebody who really cares a lot about how they show up in communication. And what really just inspires me so much about what you've built and where you've come from is you get to have, and you've cultivated a show that does model real
- 5:22 – 7:06
Small-town warmth and everyday talk: how upbringing shapes communication
- JFJefferson Fisher
conversation, and I find that can be lacking sometimes in the way we model relationships. I wonder if your, not all the details of your childhood, but simply a smaller town, right, in Arkansas, of like, do you find that that has influenced the way that you approach conversations, handle small talk, or ask questions? Do you find that that's been something that's driven that?
- BBBobby Bones
I think being from where I'm from, in, uh, uh, maybe a small town, a rural area, and maybe from the South even, I feel like that is a part of it. With, like, just a warmness
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- BBBobby Bones
... uh, because I have friends that are way nicer than me-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- BBBobby Bones
... and they're from the Northeast, and they are not near as warm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, you understand how, like, how genuine they are after a w- a- a- after a bit of time with them. Uh, yeah, I, I think, you know, coming from where I come from in rural Arkansas, um, everybody talked to everybody.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- BBBobby Bones
So if you didn't wave when someone drove by, that was weird. And, y- you know, when I go back home, if I'm driving through and people are waving at me, I'm just like, "Wait, what? Who, wh- who was that?" And I forget that's just, when you drive by a car, you wave at them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And if you don't, that's weird, even if you don't know who it is.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, I definitely think that in the South, from getting a haircut to ordering at a cafe, like, they're gonna learn your life story one way or another.
- BBBobby Bones
Haircuts, yep.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Church. Whatever it is, you're gonna find out everything about everybody. And th- for me, I, I know that is, that has been helpful in terms of being able to keep conversation, 'cause a lot of people struggle keeping conversation in the air, kind of passing the ball back and forth.
- 7:06 – 8:28
Curiosity vs. insecurity: the internal script that blocks connection
- BBBobby Bones
I feel like I'm just genuinely curious, though. Like, I think I see someone and kinda wonder, you know, if you cut a tree and you see all the circles, I, I kinda just wonder, like, what the, what their circles are.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, I genuinely am curious about folks, and so I think that's where a lot of mine comes from. You know, I also sometimes feel like I don't wanna bother people, so there's that, 'cause it's kind of a, it's a weird juxtaposition of being, like, wildly insecure and very confident, 'cause I have them both.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, I feel like I don't wanna bother people, yet I'm very curious. But it's like even with my job. Like, I don't think I would be good at my job if I was the most secure person ever. Like, I'm wildly insecure. Um, but to do my job, I've gotta be really, I gotta think I'm really good at doing the job. So it's been, it's a, it's like an, an odd mix, or like I got a screw loose, but it's the right screw.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, it's kinda how I feel about where I'm from as well. But I- sure, I think that helps with communication. Everybody talks to everybody all the time. I- if someone talks to me randomly, l- if- especially if they, like, don't know what I do for a living, 'cause that happens a lot, but if it's just somebody random, I'm never annoyed.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
But I always feel like I'm annoying everybody.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- BBBobby Bones
It's a weird, uh, y- you know, i- i- if someone's like, "Hey, you know, how's your day going?" In, even in an elevator, I'm like, "Oh, this is nice. Someone's talking to me."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
But I would never, like, randomly, like, bother somebody.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
But I do like it when someone does it to me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- BBBobby Bones
So-
- JFJefferson Fisher
So what's the, what's the lesson there?
- 8:28 – 11:32
Ask for help, tell people your goals: breaking the ‘I’m a burden’ mindset
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, the lesson, well, the lesson is, I, in my comedy act, there was kind of a, a, a inspirational talk too. I talk about whenever you want help with something, like, ask people for help.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
And then I say, "It was always weird for me to ask people for help because I thought people didn't really wanna spend time with me. They didn't, uh, they didn't wanna be bothered." But then when people ask me for help, I love to help.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
'Cause I would say, "Hey, tell people your goals. If you tell people your goals, they are more likely to help you."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
And it's the same thing, where I never wanted to ask for help because I thought they were bothered by someone asking for help. But when I would a- people ask me for help, I love it. I can't wait to give people-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- BBBobby Bones
... help or advice or tips. So yeah, we just worry too much, uh, about how people look at us and view us, and it's g- it's kinda counterproductive.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Do you think, and I find this very, um, interesting, 'cause I, I love talking about this. Like, this is my nerdy talk of, like, how, how is this, how does this happen? So if somebody in the elevator approaches you and strikes up conversation, you almost get, like, a boost from it when you leave of, like, "Hey, I've connected with another human in the world. I'm here." But when it's you, you have the chance, it's very difficult 'cause y- it comes to a point of, like, why would they-
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, I don't wanna bother them
- JFJefferson Fisher
... care? So what do you think, like, the script is that's, that's preventing that, of, like, n- is it that nobody would care?
- BBBobby Bones
I think it's rejection.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
It's rejection.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
It's what, what's, like, keeps us from doing anything and everything.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
It's rejection and failure, and if I do try to connect and they don't connect, what does that say about me? That I'm not good enough.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
That I'm not, you know-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Strong enough
- BBBobby Bones
... strong enough, I'm not good-looking enough, I'm not-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... what, what's... And it's not that at all, actually. But yeah, it's, it's complete fear of rejection, complete-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- BBBobby Bones
... fear of failure. But again, when someone does it to us, we love it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Yet we're afraid to do it to anybody else because we feel like if they don't react the way we want them to, that's on us. And it's really not. It's on them. They could be having 1,000 things, it's not a real number, that it's happening in their day that's keeping them from, from reacting the way that we w- we want them to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
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- 11:32 – 14:13
Interviewing as intent: asking risky questions without feeling exploitative
- JFJefferson Fisher
square.com/go/jefferson. So run your business better with Square. And now let's keep going. Have you always been somebody who's excellent at questions?
- BBBobby Bones
Oh, I don't know if I'm even that now. I just am j- like, genuinely and generally curious. I think it being true about me makes my questions better, even if they're not good questions, because you know I'm coming from a place of that's how I, I-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... I really wanna know.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
And so even with, like, my interviews, I, I don't I kinda just ask the things that I wanna know, and even if it's at a place with someone where it could be something that's a little personal or it kinda hits a nerve, I feel like for the most part, they don't take offense to it because they know I'm coming from a place of, of curiosity or caring and not coming from a place to get a click.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Both can be true.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
But I, I feel like it's not so much my questions but my intent, 'cause sometimes my questions are bad. But my intent is good and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... um, yeah, I just, I, like, I like connecting with people. I feel like even, even doing this, I've made-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- BBBobby Bones
... so many friends from doing this.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And you would think that this is very surface, it's professional, nothing really matters because cameras are on, you do your thing-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... cameras are off. And it doesn't happen with most, but there are, I've made some great friends that have started in this environment, because you get really intimate doing this.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Big time. [laughs]
- BBBobby Bones
I mean, it's, it-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... you're depending on me, I'm depending on you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
It's only us doing this dance.
- JFJefferson Fisher
We're doing this together.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so, yeah, I feel like my questions are fine, but I feel like my curiosity is high. But I think in normal life, I think that counts, too. Like, you know, when you talk to people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, people, I think more people than you think, at least the people I hear from, really struggle a lot with questions. And you're somebody who does it as a, a, a, I mean, a master of the craft. I know you could say, "I, my questions aren't, aren't that good." Well, to me, my brain sees that as, okay, well, there's some element of this that's also a skill, because it might be self-deprecating, it might be a like, "Hey, I know I'm gonna get a lot of this wrong." And what that's doing is saying, "I'm no more important than you are, and I'm lowering myself," or maybe it's a joke, or maybe it's humor. It's one way to, like, break the ice, because every interview that you give, you're looking for that way to kinda remove that polish. I imagine when you, when you're talking to some of the biggest stars, country stars out there, you know, do you find that you have to ask a few questions to kinda get a layer deep? Like, it has, it has to be. Like, you're like, "That's a canned answer."
- 14:13 – 17:34
Finding common ground fast—and using silence as a conversational superpower
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, I'm looking for what we have in common that can kinda put the guard down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
In, like, a jokey way?
- BBBobby Bones
Not always. Sometimes it can be, like, real trauma.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Sometimes it can be, uh, a television show we both like. Sometimes it can be, and I tell you what's worked for me the la- past few years is, I did, uh, the Dancing With the Stars, a dance show, and if somebody comes in that's done that show, and I mentioned to, to you before we started recording-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... like, there's real, like, trauma bonding in that show.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I believe it.
- BBBobby Bones
And so I, I can kind of find our, our like-minded entity-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... and focus on it. And also people, when they don't feel like they're trying to get got, they open up.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
I'm not trying to got anybody.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You know, sometimes people will give me great stuff, sometimes they won't. But, um, I... My questions, I don't feel like they're good, though. I just feel like, again, I feel like I am genuinely curious, and if something doesn't hit, I have no problem, one, sitting in silence with someone. That's the best trick in any sort of communication. If you have no fear of sitting in silence with someone, they will just talk. And so that works. I've d-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Absolutely
- BBBobby Bones
... I've done this so many times-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... that I also know what it's like for things not to go well. I know I can always get it back. So I, but I've done it wrong so many times that I know that even if it's going terribly wrong, I can get it back. I've been through some terrible ones that have turned out great. So just doing it so many times. But it's also helped in, in, like, real life as well, like human conversations.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, just talking to folks. 'Cause a little bit I can just turn on the, "Hey, I'm curious. I'm just gonna ask some questions," and, um, I find the, like, the thing we have in common. It works, like, if I'm being, let's say, interviewed for a, not even an interview, but, like, I'm doing a job interview for a TV show. I'm doing a, I'm in auditioning for something. I can just find, like, a sports team they like, a shoe they're wearing, uh, something with their kid that I understand. Man, that is the real key to any sort of relaxed conversation, is to find what you have in common with that person.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I've heard finding something separate from the person is actually a key to that commonality. If it's actually maybe separate from... It's like the third person in the room. For example, Dancing with the Stars could have been something, or maybe I had seen something on your shelf that you were, I don't know, uh, a Houston Astros fan or something, where you see it and then that's where you're able to kind of create that bond with-
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, especially if I know enough about it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You know, if I'm just like, "Hey, look at that fish," but I'd never fished, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah, yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
But if you got a fish and I go, "Hey, I see you caught that fish." Like, my stepdad was a striper guide for many years.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, very cool.
- BBBobby Bones
I can find that thing that puts us in the same place, that allows us to go to the same place together, because I probably didn't come here to talk about fishing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- 17:34 – 19:18
When a conversation starts badly: ‘don’t abort mission’—stay in and recover
- JFJefferson Fisher
get a lot of things wrong, so don't... That, that kinda lowers the, the temperature of it. You said something a minute ago I wanna make sure and pull back on is, you said, "I know I can get it back." H- How, how do, how does somebody correct course and get on back-
- BBBobby Bones
Just keep going
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in a conversation?
- BBBobby Bones
There's no magic. You just keep going. If you don't feel like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
People feel like there's magic
- BBBobby Bones
... if, if you don't quit, it's over.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
It's not o- If you don't quit, it's not over. And so, uh, yeah, there have been a lot of interviews or just situations that don't go well at the very beginning.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
But I know I can get it back. Just stay in. It's just staying in and trying to find, you know, whatever you have in common with that person. Uh, it can be in a professional setting. It could even be, you know, uh, uh, You know, when I was dating my wife, you know, I don't think she wanted to go out with me immediately. [laughs] I don't know if you've seen us beside each other.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
It kinda doesn't match. Uh, but it, you know, I, I and I don't think I was super smooth with her when I first met her, but I just kept trying. And so yeah, as long as you stay in, regardless of the situation, I think you can get it back. It's just that when it doesn't go well early, we tend to go, "This ain't going good. Abort mission."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, but I think that's the key. Well, I think that's the key to pretty much any success that I've had, is just figuring it out as I go, having the confidence to go in and know that it may not work at the beginning.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And then just staying in when it's uncomfortable. So yeah, in this situation, a lot of times... Because most people come in, it could be like this, could be a job interview. People are tight. As soon as I start, everybody's tight, and people are like, "I'm about-"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, they're tense. Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
"I'm about to do a job interview. I'm about to have a job interview. I'm about to do an interv- about," you know, one of these. And so people come in and they're tight, so it's how do we get each other to kind of be on the same place so we can actually, uh, get the most out of it? And it's finding whatever it is that you have in common.
- 19:18 – 20:08
One-on-one depth vs. group dynamics: when extra voices help—and when they hurt
- JFJefferson Fisher
Do you think that having, when you're having conversations with, like, multiple people, if you have Eddie or Amy or Lunchbox in there, th- that that helps?
- BBBobby Bones
Nah, not really. I mean, it depends on what we're trying to do. It- if I'm trying to, like, be super sincere-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- BBBobby Bones
... or, or if I'm sad or I'm t- I would rather just do it by myself.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, certain dynamics it works wonderfully. Certain, not so much. Um, but you know, it's, if you're trying to have a real connection, it's hard to do it with seven people sitting around you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Just generally speaking-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... it's much easier if it's f- you know, one on one. And that one on one can be me talking to a microphone or the person listening, or even, like, to me talking to Amy.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You know, whenever you have people chirping in your ear from the side, it gets to be a little bit more difficult.
- 20:08 – 23:01
Hard conversations at work: boundaries, expectations, and ‘don’t bring it in’ rules
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like on... Yeah, I can imagine. Uh, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna pause. I wanna bring us back for a moment. How would, b- based on your experience in the 20-plus years you've been having this, this show, how do you have those harder conversations with friends, especially when you're working with them, to make sure you're not damaging... Like, you need to make a decision, and sometimes you need to be, I need to say the boss thing, but you also don't wanna damage that relationship.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, the boundaries have to be discussed, uh, many times over, just to be r- even reinstated, because there are boundaries. Uh, the boundaries are when we're at work in a work situation, I'm going to be the boss. There are certain... You can... When we're performing, you can do whatever you wanna do, but it, mostly it comes to, like, uh, everybody else is putting in their time and their effort. You just gotta match that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
I mean, that's really what everybody's job is, match everybody else's effort. Don't be late. Have a good attitude. Those ty- Other than that, you're good, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
Show up. Do your best. If, for some reason, you're not performing, I will tell you. If I feel like someone else is having to pick up your slack, I don't like that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... and I will tell you. So they understand that I'm going to communicate with them the things that are good and things that are bad.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, w- when I'm the boss.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
When I'm the friend, who knows? Uh, like, you know, we, Eddie and I go a lot of places together, and we're able to switch back and forth, but if there's something wrong with some content, uh, the, it's never weird anymore for me to go in and go, "Hey, this isn't good."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Also, I wanna be super efficient. I'm not gonna, you know, kinda dance around it, but I think generally speaking, I just kinda operate that way because we all have things we wanna do outside of work, so let's get all the work things done first.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
And let's do the best that we can do for each other so we can go be the best we can for our families. Not only that, it's, you know, there's a open rule on our show that if anything is affecting or bothering you, don't come in. Just-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh
- BBBobby Bones
... just don't.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
'Cause if you can't be, you can't be good for me if you're not good for you at home.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
So-
- JFJefferson Fisher
If home's not good, the conversation-
- BBBobby Bones
Don't-
- JFJefferson Fisher
... is not gonna be good.
- BBBobby Bones
Nope. Nothing-
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's impossible to not carry that
- BBBobby Bones
... nothing's gonna be good. Yeah, so if you're not good at home, you do not need to come in at all, and I think that's where being a friend-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... kind of, you know, creeps back into play. Um, because when you come in, you've gotta be great.
- 23:01 – 26:52
Leadership cost: why the ‘captain’ can’t call out—and how Bobby stays healthy anyway
- BBBobby Bones
The only person who can come in sick or affected is me. Everybody else, stay home. If you're affected, you need to un-affect yourself. If you got-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Why can't you?
- BBBobby Bones
Oh, I got a lead thing. Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You're the captain.
- BBBobby Bones
I gotta... It doesn't, it doesn't move without me, and that's okay. Like, I know my role. They're all depending on me in that, that way. So yeah, we have a rule if you're not feeling good, uh, mental or physical, you gotta take care of you before you can come in, 'cause you're not gonna be good for me if you're not good for you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, what do you do when you don't feel good?
- BBBobby Bones
I feel good.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, so you just-
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Is it just a thing? Okay.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, yeah. I gotta be the leader. So I will find time to feel bad.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Hmm. All right. Got it. That's harder.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah. It's hard.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, because then, then if you're not doing it there, your, the, your outlet's somewhere else.
- BBBobby Bones
It is, but you know, I do a great job of making sure that I'm taking care of myself. Outside of that room. I'm in therapy twice a week.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Or t- or, or my wife... I have a therapist that my wife and I go to, a couples therapist. I have my own therapist, so I'm not going to two different therapists. But I'm-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Preach, man. Same. [laughs]
- BBBobby Bones
I'm, I'm a big, big therapy guy. So I-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... I'm doing the things hopefully to keep myself mentally ready. I'm also doing the things physically.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
Meaning I know that my diet matters. If I don't eat good, I'm not gonna perform well.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
I know that if I'm not exercising, I'm not gonna perform well. I know if I'm not working my brain-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... and going to therapy and, and talking about what's bothering me, and if I'm not reading books, I'm not gonna perform well. So I'm doing all that work ahead of time, that if something does come up, I think I can get through it until my next break.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
But they're, they're counting on me. I have a staff of, like, 15, 16 people that if I don't go, I let down 15 or 16 families. So I don't take that for granted, and at times it can be extremely difficult. But, um, in that part, I am the leader. It... Back home, though, in the home dynamic, my wife is that. My wife is exactly to-
- JFJefferson Fisher
For sure
- 26:52 – 29:52
Directness without drama: get to the problem fast and remove personality
- JFJefferson Fisher
genuine curiosity, maybe even sometimes when you don't feel like it. We talked about some ways that you can kind of get below the surface. When it comes to hard conversations as a leader, not just friends that you've been forever with, I'm talking just anything that there's some kind of crisis and you guys say, "I have to be really direct and not apologize for it." Because I know people who go, "Look, I'm sorry I gotta say this, but I gotta..." How have you f- found to be direct in your communication?
- BBBobby Bones
I, I found that the quicker we can get to the problem and get it solved, the better it is for everybody, even if it's wildly uncomfortable at the beginning.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Without bringing personality into it.
- BBBobby Bones
No personality at all.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, none. Um, how I will do it if there is something uncomfortable to talk about is, "Hey, you're not gonna like this, but..."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Because just by me saying that, it, it, it almost braces them for a few words.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, "This is not gonna be fun to talk about, but"-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- BBBobby Bones
... um, even that f- you know, .7 seconds of setup allows them to go, "Okay, we're getting into something that is not comfortable. I'm ready." And sometimes it's not near as bad as they think by me saying that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, but that's kind of the precursor, and then I just try to get to it and say it immediately because neither one of us wanna dick around with trying to figure out what I'm trying to talk about.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, so let's figure out the problem. Let's address it. Let's get through it and get to the other side of it as fast as possible so we can get back to doing the right things.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- BBBobby Bones
It's very uncomfortable, but it's very uncomfortable for a limited time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
And I prefer it to be very uncomfortable for a limited time than kinda uncomfortable for a long time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Because you can do either one. I've w- I've had people that I've worked for that love to dance around it. "I'm gonna... We're gonna talk about three things. The first two are gonna be positive" And then the whole time I know the third thing's about to be bad. Let's just do it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
I don't, I don't really n- I don't need the syrup because I want to figure out what's wrong, fix it, and get back to the good spot. So there's not a lot of buffer.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's how I know you're s- Southern, is you say, "I, I don't need the syrup." That's, that's how I know.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah. No syrup, and there's no buffer because I don't feel like for me that's healthy to either hear it or give it. So it can be uncomfortable. It should be uncomfortable because whatever it is is an uncomfortable thing that we're talking about.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- BBBobby Bones
So let's get to the point, and then let's get off of it because we just fixed it. How awesome is it that we can fix it? And I think now, too, my people know that. They know I'm not gonna come in and, "Hey, how's the dog?" And then hit them with some bad news.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
If I'm really asking about the dog, they know I'm curious about the dog.
- 29:52 – 32:22
Repair and empowerment: ‘I believe in you’ and ‘I know you can handle it’
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do, do you mind if I share the version that I use for at the end of the day?
- BBBobby Bones
I, I would love to hear it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So it's very similar to yours. Um, it's, "I know this is, I know this isn't gonna be fun to talk about, and we're gonna do it together." That's what I add. Whenever I add the, "And we're gonna do it together," instead of the but, it tells them that, "Hey, you and me, we're gonna like lock in for a moment. There's gonna be an end and there's gonna be a beginning, and this is not me leaving you to say, 'Bad you, good me.' I'm saying I'm separating out the, the problem from both of us. This is gonna be uncomfortable to talk about, and we're gonna do it together." That's what I have found, at least, so just for my two cents.
- BBBobby Bones
I have found, and I mean it when I say it, is that when I'm done saying what the issue is-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- BBBobby Bones
... because if I were to say, uh, "This is not gonna be fun for us, Jefferson."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
"But A, B, and C is happening. That is not good. We need to fix it, but I believe in you."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- BBBobby Bones
Like, a- and it may sound hokey, but if I didn't believe in you, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Ugh.
- BBBobby Bones
We would just move on. I would ... I, I'd move on to somebody else that I think could do a better job, a quicker job-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yep
- BBBobby Bones
... make it easier for me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yep.
- BBBobby Bones
But the fact that I'm having that conversation means that I do believe in you. So this wasn't good, but I believe in you, so let's make it good.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So good.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, that, that works a lot-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... because again, everybody, everybody's kind of feeling like they don't wanna be there.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, no doubt. I, I like, "I'm telling you this because I believe in you. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it." Like, th- that-
- BBBobby Bones
Oh, that's a good one: "I know you can handle it."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
I'm gonna use that one
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that type of stuff is like, it empowers them to go, "Oh, yeah. Okay. Whatever he's about to say, he said I can handle it, so, so I am."
- BBBobby Bones
That's a good one. That's a good buildup.
- JFJefferson Fisher
To be able to kinda like push that a lot. But I, I think it, um, what we're talking about hits the very home of a lot of small businesses, a lot of families, uh, anybody listening that can apply these kind of fr- frameworks to very difficult conversation. The other thing I wanted to make sure and, mm, push a little bit is when it, when you don't have, you don't feel like there's any chrem- chemistry with that person you're asking questions to. Let's say you're having an interviewer, or you're having an interview ... Let me rephrase that. You're taking an interview, you have somebody across from you, and there's just no compatibility. Are there certain, like, tethers you're trying to, like, "Please, let me find something that we can tag along with"?
- 32:22 – 39:45
When there’s no chemistry: take over with stories, improv skills, and ‘I’ statements
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, I just take over and start talking to myself.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- BBBobby Bones
Especially if w- if we're, if we're doing like one of these, and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... let's say I'm getting nothing from you, or you may not be feeling good, like I don't know the reasons-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- BBBobby Bones
... that we're not connecting.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, I will then just start talking and, and entertaining myself, and you're just now part of the audience.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's smart.
- BBBobby Bones
And, and then, uh, it's through a lot of, uh-
- JFJefferson Fisher
But that's business too. I mean, you have to, yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You know, we got an hour we gotta fill, and you're not giving me much. I know the person that's watching, you know, they're not liking it or they're-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- BBBobby Bones
... so I'm just gonna tell stories. And so you're, you're, you're welcome to hop in, but that happens occasionally. If, like, you're ... Like, if you're watching my podcast ever or listening to my podcast and I'm interviewing somebody-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Which is Bobby Cast, by the way
- BBBobby Bones
... yeah, thank you. Um, and you hear me just start to just talk and tell stories, it means for whatever reason we're not connecting right then.
- JFJefferson Fisher
We're... Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
A lot of times, though, it does turn into-
- JFJefferson Fisher
It'll pick up.
- BBBobby Bones
Yep, because the person will then hear me talk about something and find something they wanna talk back about and go into it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
So yeah, that's been a technique that I've learned.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think that's really smart, because sometimes you're just not vibing. You go, "Hey, let me tell you a story. You know, the other day I was doing this," and, and they go, "Well, I, I didn't have anything to say back then, but I do have a story," because it's much easier to relay stories a lot of times than it is to give the back and forth kinda small talk. And I think conversation can be really hard for people, but telling stories I think is kinda timeless, so it's a lot easier to hit that default.
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, that's what we do if, like, we're just sitting around with friends too, right? We're just telling stories and everybody jumps in. So if someone is not giving me what I feel like is good for both of us, I'm just gonna entertain for a while until you like something in my story and you're gonna hop in and give me your version of it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or not.
- BBBobby Bones
Or you're just gonna sit there quietly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Or not, yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And, and that doesn't, doesn't happen often where they just wanna sit there quietly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, I can imagine. I think that, you know, when I think of radio hosts, which when I was a kid, uh, that's who I wanted to be actually when I grew up, 'cause I was like, how awesome, they just get to talk all the time. Uh, I think that radio hosts have to have a different gear. Like, they have to be able to put conversation in a different gear, because you can keep the ball in the air totally by yourself just ... If something were to go wrong or you realize somebody's, nobody's giving you anything, to go, "Okay, I need to lock in and fill 20 minutes," or whatever it is, and to talk nonstop really with hardly any likes or ums or ahs. Is that a skill that you've learned over time, or you always felt like that was something you could do?
- 39:45 – 44:50
The hard-to-turn-off brain: PTSD, sleep struggles, and fear-based success
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Does... Is there something that you find hard to kinda turn off in your brain?
- BBBobby Bones
Yeah, I mean, all. I have trouble sleeping.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
I've... For a couple of reasons. I think everybody says, you know, "My thoughts spin." I, I go to sleep with a podcast in my ear.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- BBBobby Bones
Uh, because if I just lay in silence, I tend to spiral out.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
Um, so I will listen to a podcast when I go to sleep. I have trouble sleeping. I, I also have, like, some PTSD.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You know, when I started to have any success in this job, it was weird, 'cause I think for me, I've been able to start at the bottom, and I worked in a really small town in Hot Springs, Arkansas-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- BBBobby Bones
... and nobody knew or cared. But then once I started to have a little more success and people would kinda care, then people were kinda weird. There's a couple, then there's a couple weirdos instead of none. And then when I got a little, little more popular and the show started to branch out nationally, then it wasn't that the percentage of weirdos went up, but there's just more people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so I, you know, I got jumped outside of work. I had-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- BBBobby Bones
... my house broken into while I was on the air. I got held at gunpoint outside of an event once. I've had multiple death threats. Um, so I had some really bad PTSD for a long time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, that makes complete sense.
- BBBobby Bones
And I tried it all. I mean, I, I, I don't drink, never had alcohol or tried a drug or anything because of my family's addiction problems. So I'm always really nervous about taking anything with... that, that could trigger any sort of addiction-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- BBBobby Bones
... or dependence.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so my doctor knows that, my doctors, and I remember I was really struggling with sleeping after I g- the last time I got jumped at work, and we tried everything. We tried all the holistic [farts] . Didn't work. I need chemicals, man.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And we tried... Finally, he was like, "You know, we, we, we can finally go, we can do sleeping pills." I'd never tried a sleeping pill before, and I'm like, "Man, I don't know." He said, "You're right." But I was getting so sick because I wasn't sleeping.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
You don't sleep, you don't drink water-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, it's the worst
- BBBobby Bones
... you break down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- BBBobby Bones
And so I s- took sleeping pills for a little bit, and man, they work. But there were full nights I would look at my phone. I had FaceTimed, like, seven people.
Episode duration: 44:50
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