How To Make Small Talk Fun and Avoid Being Awkward

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 If there is one thing to unite this world, it is the hatred of small talk. It doesn't matter if it's a corporate company event or maybe a, just a weekend networking, it can be terrible. It can be downright scary at times. So how do you do it and how do you get better at it? Well, I got you. Today we're talking all about how to never struggle with small talk. Small talk, it's gross. So how are we gonna fix that? Let me give you some hints. Number one, instead of just asking, "How's work? How's home?" Those kind of questions just fall flat. They do nothing for you. They don't move the conversation at all. Instead, we're going to switch it to ask questions that are action-oriented. That means questions about the doing. So instead of how's work, how's home, how are you, you're gonna be asking questions like, "What did y'all do this weekend? What do you have coming up?" Getting things that they're excited about. "What are you excited about today or tomorrow or this week?" When you say, "What are you doing or going,"

Jefferson Fisher 1:01 those are action-oriented things, and they're gonna help push the conversation forward. Number two, now what matters is how you do it. If you notice, I didn't say, um, "Do you have anything going on this weekend?" Because how are you gonna respond to that? You're gonna respond to that as either a yes or a no. That's it. When you ask questions typically that are did or, uh, "Did you have fun today? Did you have a good day?" When you ask your kid, when you pick them up from school, "Did you have a good day?" You're really only giving them a few options to say yes or no. When you ask questions that are closed, that's what they're called, close-ended questions, they only leave you hardly anywhere to go. It's just a yes or no question. "Did you go to the store?" Yes or no. Instead, you're gonna be opening it up with asking and beginning the phrase or question with what. What, you say, I always say, "What did y'all do this weekend?" Or did, instead of, "Did you have fun this weekend?" You hear the difference between, "What did you do for fun this weekend?" Versus, "Did you have fun this weekend?" One invites you to open up. The other closes it down and ends the discussion. So any time that you can, I want you to ask an open-ended question. You do that by beginning with what or how or when, because it gets them to continue to talk. That's what you're after. And also, number three, if you find that you just don't have that much to talk about,

Jefferson Fisher 2:32 or it starts to go downhill, and you're finding that each of your responses are getting shorter and shorter, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. People feel like there has to be a certain amount of time for it to count as small talk. No. If, if you just say hello to the person and you engage maybe in one little back and forth, that's small talk. You've done it. Congratulations. There's no medal. There's no reward. There's nobody counting and timing you to see how long you've been talking. Just if the conversation comes to a natural end, then just say, "Hey, great to talk to you," and politely end the conversation. Don't feel like you have to keep pushing and pushing to have some green check flag to say, "I have accomplished small talk." It's a lot less than you think to make that happen. All right, now, on top of making sure your questions are action-oriented, asking about the going, the doing, what they're excited about, what's up ahead, what's, uh, going on in the future, on top of making sure that you're asking open-ended questions that are leaving lots of space and begin with, with what, how, and when

Jefferson Fisher 3:32 and not did, that's gonna close things off. On top of that, there is a formula that I'm going to teach you real quick, and it has always worked for me, and I know it can work for you too. This is how it goes. Number one, you just pick a topic, any topic, to talk to this person about. So let's say it's as boring as the weather. You could say, "Man, this weather was crazy. This weather can't make up its mind today." They're gonna come up with something. They're gonna say, "Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah, right? It's crazy." They're gonna acknowledge you in some way. Perfect. You have now set the stage for you to give options. I like to think of it as a poll, um, and... P-O-L-L, meaning you're going to say, for example, in, in this example, you can say, "So you, are you a fall person, are you a winter person? You like it hot or you, you like it cold?" Or maybe it can be summer or winter. "Are you, you a, you a fan of summer or do you like it cold?" Or, "Would you rather be too hot or too cold?" You're giving them options. That's the key, options. Because options give us something to talk about rather than just forcing it down one chute and hoping that it works. So if I were to say, you know, "Are you, do you like the beach in summer or are you more like you like the mountains and the, the snow?" They're gonna give you one. They're gonna give you one option. They're not gonna just leave you hanging. Or they might just say, "You know what? I really like spring. Spring's kind of my thing. It reminds me of blah, blah, blah." Well, then you get to interact and

Jefferson Fisher 5:04 say, "Well, I, I totally hear you. I, well, I happen to be a fall person because it makes me think of football and Thanksgiving and, uh, here in, in America, we have Thanksgiving in November, and so that's what I really like." And then you get to kinda interact with them and say, "Well, what, what about you?" And now you're getting to get to know them on just a little bit deeper level because here's, here's the trick on, on this formula, is why it works, for me at least, is that when you share something that is more personal about you, 99% of the time it then opens it up for the other person to share something a little bit more personal about them. Because they feel like, "Oh, well, you've shared something, and now I'm gonna share something." It's, it's very, um... It creates kind of this mutual contract that's hidden in a way, that if I share a little bit about me and what's personal to me and what I like, you're then gonna feel a little bit more comfortable sharing more personal things about you. And that's what you're curating in that experience. You can take it wherever you wanna go, but that's, that's the formula. It's that simple. Pick a topic, create options for them. Uh, maybe you create two options, at least two, maybe three or four, and then you share something as to which one is your favorite, and then ask someone about you. Even the question, "What about you?" continues to open things up in the dialogue and it, it never can really go wrong that way. I mean, they call this small talk, not big talk. It's just something short, compact that you left a, "Oh, okay, I, I learned a little bit more about this person." And it's something that you can knock out really in just an elevator ride. It's very quick, very easy. Let's say you're coming off, uh, into the elevator straight from some rain or whatever. You can easily just open it up talking about really the weather, the news, whatever you want. Try that. And because this episode is about small talk, I'm going to keep this episode small. So let's go, uh, ahead and get into my favorite part of the podcast, and that's where I get to read a question from a follower.

Jefferson Fisher 7:05 Those that are part of my newsletter are able to ask me questions, uh, by email, and I'm able to answer them. So if you're not part of the newsletter, you can sign up. The show notes are, um, are... The link for it is down there in the show notes. All right, this one I have picked one out. This is... Let me pull it up. This is Linda, and she lives in Lubbock, Texas. Linda from Lubbock. Think there's a country song in there somewhere. Uh, I went to law school in Lubbock, so I'm very familiar with it. Linda says, "Jefferson, I need some advice. Thank you so much for your clips." You're very welcome, Linda. "I am... Uh, I work at a..." Oh, no, I'm not gonna say where she works. "But I have networking events, and I tend to absolutely clam up where I stand in the corner and I'm not sure how to approach anyone or to get to a point where I feel comfortable talking to anyone. Do you have any advice?" Linda, I'm, I'm sorry you're having trouble with that, and it's, it's absolutely okay. Absolutely okay, because what makes you special is what makes you you. So just because y- you're not going around talking to every single person that is in the room, Linda, does not make you any less special or important or of less value. You find that people can talk a lot and say nothing at all. All right? So a lot of the times these networking events are really just more of a social dance in a way of just finding who's comfortable with who and who's friends and who's not. So I don't, I don't want you to overthink it, but I know that's

Jefferson Fisher 8:38 not all that helpful. So Linda, I'm gonna s- say some things that... I'm gonna try to say some things that are. So when somebody is talking with you, one thing that you can do that I like to do is I will, um... It's... Well, it becomes s- subconscious, but if you wanna find that you're more engaged with people and get kinda curious with people, uh, physically, one thing that y- you can work on is I like to slowly ki- you just kind of cock your head a little bit to the side. That makes it look like you're much more interested in what they have to say rather than just like, "Oh, I just wanna talk to you." So it's, you don't wanna have crazy eyes. You don't wanna have it to where you feel like you're in front of their face. You're just kind of at a distance where your shoulders are relaxed, you feel relaxed. It helps me, uh, if you're holding something, especially these networking events, everybody kinda expects you to have something in your hand. It does not have to be a drink. It can be a snack. It could be any kind of refreshment that they have, but it, it keeps your hands busy. Linda, that's, that's why I'm saying it, because it, it keeps your hands from having to like fiddle with themselves or maybe you don't know what to do with them, so you kind of cross them. When you hold something, it keeps your stance open, and what I'm gonna encourage you to do on top of that is to just barely slide your head to the, the side. E- either side. It doesn't matter, the left or the right. But it, it, it gives this posture of wanting to kind of be curious, and when you smile and you're asking questions and they start to respond, if you can just move your head just a little bit to the side, it's gonna open them up as if, hey, you're being a little bit more curious about them to have more conversation. Another thing that's gonna help, Linda, is understanding that don't go into these events thinking you have to talk to every single person, like there's a win and a loss kind of thing. There's something to win and lose. That's not it. If you can just go in with the idea of just talking to one person, yeah, it's that basic. Just one person and having a good conversation with them. I would rather trade 20 little small talks that mean nothing at all versus one awesome conversation with somebody that I want to talk to every time. I'll trade that every single time. So when you're going t- into these types of, of scenarios, Linda, just, it's gonna help you if you already know who's gonna be there and you make sure that you go talk to that person. If it's a friend, awesome. That's great. The biggest thing is that people just see you around. They see that you're having a good time, but if you're closed off in a corner, even if you're talking to somebody and you just have, um, you, you have a closed-off posture, your arms are closed, your, your shoulders are hunched, and you're, you're kinda turned off to the group, they're gonna find that a little bit more... It's, it's gonna signal at least that you're not wanting to talk to anybody. And m- maybe you don't, but you asked the question, how, how can we, how can you get better at that? Keep a much more open stance and, and go in trying to think of just one or two people that you want to make eye contact with and conversation with. It doesn't mean you have to plan out these conversations ahead of time. You certainly can. And what I would encourage you to do is take some of the things that I said

Jefferson Fisher 11:40 at the beginning of this episode of asking, going up to somebody, say hi. I assume e- it doesn't matter if you know them or not, and you can ask them the question of, "What, what was something exciting happen in your week? What's, what's ha- um, what's exciting in your life right now?" See how, how... It's just one question right there. "What's exciting in your life right now?" Easy. And you let them talk, and then once they share it, you share something that's going on and exciting in your, in your life. You can't just ask a question and then expect not to have any kind of answer of your own. So it's that kind of that back and forth, that mutual contract that I talked about, uh, Linda, that's gonna make sure that you are keeping the ball rolling in the air. And it, it is much easier for you to end the conversation. This would be point three for you. If you feel that the conversation is starting to run low, get out fast. Say, "Hey, it's, it's been great to talk to you. I'm gonna go grab something to, to eat or drink." Whatever it is. "I'm gonna run to go see..." Whatever. It doesn't matter. It... The biggest thing is if you can end the conversation on a high note, rather than forcing each other to talk when you really d- are kind of done talking to each other, and then leave the conversation, well, now you kind of drained each other. So if you can, try to leave the conversation on a high note. So if they responded to your, "What's, you know, most exciting in your world today?" And they give you an awesome answer, you say, "Oh, that's fabulous." Ask maybe another question about it. Go, "Oh, that's fantastic." And if they don't ask anything of you, typically they should. I mean, that's, they should. But if they don't, that's cool. We just say, "Wow, that's awesome. Well, I'm, I'm super proud of you. That sounds really exciting. It was great to talk with you." And then you leave, and now you've left on a high note. Now, Linda, you've made a good impression because all you did was talk about them, and they're gonna, they're really gonna like that. So, uh, Linda, those are just some quick takeaways, but at the end of the day, you just do what makes you special. All right? You, you do what makes you you, and if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do

Jefferson Fisher 13:41 it. You stick with what feels good in, in your lane and, uh, what resonates and feels right to you. You don't like them, and you definitely don't want them, but sometimes no matter what you say, you find yourself getting sucked into them anyway. But with what I'm about to show you today, you're gonna handle them like a pro. Today's episode is all about how to handle unwanted conversations. If you want to avoid an unwanted conversation, number one, don't fight them because the more that you do, the more you're gonna find yourself in one. Instead, just let it go by. You do that by making yourself sound, well, disinteresting. This is what I mean. When somebody's pushing an opinion onto you, any controversial topic, whether it's religion, politics, whatever, they're trying to push something onto you, and you say, "Yeah, I don't know." Simple as that. "Yeah, I don't know," or, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure about that." You're finding ways to communicate to them of, "If you're looking for a fight, you're not gonna find one here." Number two, this one is the easiest, but it's the most critical. You are making them feel heard. It's just simply acknowledging their point, and it's very simple to do. This is what it sounds like: "I agree that's an issue." Period. Somebody's wanting to get all worked up, and they're telling something to you, all you need to respond is, "Yeah, I, I agree that's an issue. I agree that's an issue." You're not saying whether you agree with it or disagree with it. If anything, they just feel acknowledged and heard, and g- they say to themselves, "Oh, okay. They understood and heard what I said." And number three, if you need to be a little bit more direct, you need to tell them that you're not interested in this conversation. If they're not getting the point, here's the way I suggest to do that. You say, "I typically avoid this topic." The key word is typically. "Yeah, I typically avoid this topic," or, "I typically, uh, try not to talk about X, Y, and Z." The key here is when you say typically, you're communicating of, "I've had this conversation before. It's not really stimulating to me anymore, so I just, um, avoid this topic altogether." You're not saying that they're wrong. You're not giving them a fight. You're not giving them anything for them to bare their teeth on. You're just sim- simply saying, "I tend to avoid this. I typically don't do this." And I'm gonna give you a disclaimer on this episode, particularly when it comes to political topics. I'm all in favor of educating yourself and making sure that you know about the issues out there. I think you should absolutely ex- exercise your right to vote, no questions asked. That's a different question on whether or not somebody is allowed to force their opinion onto you and say whether they're right or wrong, or if you're supposed to push your opinion back and always have these discussions where you know it's just beating your head against a wall. If this person is open-minded and it's a discussion that you enjoy having, and people have political discussions all the time, and there's no issues. But other people, it's not so much about change. They don't care about the change. They care about the competition. It's like a sport to them. It's like arguing over their favorite sports

Jefferson Fisher 16:44 team. Who's going to win? Who's going to lose? Day to day, w- the ultimate consequence of the discussion of who wins makes no bearing, no change on their life. It's just something that they feel like a team on, so they wanna have this discussion, uh, of intellect to intellect or just issue to issue, and they just wanna talk it out. All kinds of different reasons why these kind of topics should or may come up in your life. The key is how do you balance them? The reason why I have number one be to pass it by is because it's that idea of don't attend every argument you're invited to. Just because somebody pushes their opinion onto you to talk about any controversial topic does not mean that it's an invitation for you to mandatorily give your opinion right back. Whenever you decide, "You know what? I wanna push against you. Actually, I don't agree with that," you can disagree all you want. Just know you're walking right into the conversation. It's no longer an unwanted conversation. It is a desired conversation now that you're giving your opinion. If you want to avoid these, then you need to just let them pass by. I say disinterested or be disinteresting because in many ways you're taking all the oxygen out of the room, and their fire can't burn. They have nothing to get upset about because you're not giving them anything to jump onto. You're finding ways to say, "You know what? I don't know about that. You know what? Ah, that's a good question. I'm really not sure. I'm not sure." It's not that you're... That you don't have your own opinion. It's not that you're uneducated, it's just you're not in a mood to say, "I don't wanna get in this conversation right now." And there's nothing wrong with that. When it comes to agreeing with them, understand nobody can make you agree to something you don't want to agree to. Nobody can force you to say something you don't want to say. But it's critical that these kind of people, when they're pushing these unwanted conversations, just feel heard. Often, if they just feel acknowledged in some way, they're going to go away. Not only have you made yourself disinteresting, they know they're not gonna get anywhere with this, they know that you're not gonna give them that fight and that excitement that they're looking for. They just want to feel acknowledged. So when you can say things like we mentioned in number two of, "I agree, that's an issue. I hear you." Simple as that. "I hear you. I agree, that's an issue. I agree." That's all you have to say. Even if you disagree with them, you're just making them feel heard. But if they continue to push and press, uh, on you to make you feel uncomfortable in some certain way, don't hesitate for one second to say, "I prefer," or, "I typically." You're talking about what you do in the past. "I prefer not to talk about X, Y, and Z. Uh, I typically try to avoid topics about blah blah blah." You can make it even situational. Uh, "I, I typically avoid topic X at dinner," or at home, or at work. You make it situational where you are in your environment. Simple as that. And if they continue to press the button, it's absolutely okay to say, "I'm not going there," period. "I'm not going there." You're saying, "I'm not going into this conversation. I've given you plenty of lead-ups, I've given you signs that I'm not interested in this. That, that means I have to be explicit with you. I'm not interested in this conversation. I typically don't enjoy talking about topics of X, Y, and Z. This subject matter isn't for me. That subject isn't for me." You

Jefferson Fisher 20:16 find ways to, if they're not gonna be taking the signs, be very direct with them to say, "I have a boundary here. I'm not gonna be goaded into this. I'm not gonna be led into this conversation. I'm not going there." Now we're at the part that's one of my favorite parts, and that is I'm going to answer a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my weekly newsletter, I send one email once a week right to your inbox on a communication tip, and those that are on the newsletter can email me questions and I'm able to answer it here on the podcast. So I have my, my other phone here, and this one that I picked is from Sammy. Sammy is in Florida. He says, "Hey Jefferson, uh, love your tips. I have an issue with work. There is a boss that I have who always likes to talk about whether it's gossip or politics. Whatever it is, he's always wanting my input on it and I'd rather not give it. It's not that I don't have an opinions, I'm just not that much of a social person and it makes me uncomfortable. Love to hear your thoughts on this." Sammy, I feel you, man. So any time... Let me give you a, an example of what's this making me think of in, in my own mind, my own, my own world, is I'd have these conversations with my grandfather. I'd go up every summer to see him, and it never failed. And this happened definitely in the last five, 10 years or so, where I'd start to come talk to him, and every time he'd turn the conversation to politics or some issue that I did not want to talk about. It's not that he... I mean, he and I agreed on some things. We also disagreed on some things, but that's all he ever wanted to talk about. It just kinda consumed his mindset. This is what I'm gonna encourage you to do, Sammy. Often the issue that you hear is not the real issue. All right? It's not the political issue that they wanna talk about, or that, um, let's say maybe he's oversharing or there's gossip, there's something else. It's not that. It's an underlying layer. Continue on with my grandfather example. My grandfather was the ty- is the type that, you know, he doesn't see a whole lot of people day to day, and so whenever I'm coming around and I'm giving him my full attention, I might be the first person he's really been able to talk to that day, and he wants to get out everything that's on his mind. There's also that element of he kind of wants to... You know, there's people out there who want to feel impressive with their knowledge, regardless of what side of the fence anything is on. It doesn't mean it's political, not political, or religious, or any other controversial topic. They just want to share that they're knowledgeable about a given topic. So I'll... I'm going to encourage you to look behind the issue. Why does he continue to come to you with this, this boss or manager, Sammy? Why does he continue to come to you with this? Is it that he's just looking for other conversation with you? Maybe it's he just wants to have some kind of interaction with somebody, especially if it varies. If it's always the same issue every single time, that's a little bit different. But if he always comes to you with something different, that might be a suggestion that, well, he's just wanting to interact with somebody. Like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, some people it's not about who's right, who's wrong, it's just the competition. It's like a, it's a hobby for some people to find out, "Hey, can we just kind of feel alive for a second if we get up and angry about things even though nothing in our world's going to change?" So when that happens and you feel like you need to set some boundaries in this discussion, I would, number one, I would encourage you to continue to indicate to him that you're not going to give him any kind of fight. You're not gonna be on his side or against his side. You're just gonna be disinterested. You're gonna be disinteresting by saying things like, "You know, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure about that," or, "Man, if I had an opinion, I'd give one. Simple as that. I don't know enough about it." Or it's, "Hey, I agree this is an issue. Yeah, I agree, that's- that's definitely an issue." You're simply just acknowledging something that they said. Or if you need to be really, really, um, clear that this is not something you're interested in and you don't like this, it's okay to say, "I'd prefer not to to discuss this kind of stuff at work." Simple as that. You have to do things that sound authentic and genuine to you. What you can't do is start to engage. If you start to engage or you- you begin to just ing- agree and be a yes-man, uh, to everything and go, "Yep, you're exactly right. You're exactly right," then he's gonna continue to come to you with things. But if you continually show that you're not gonna be that much fun, you're not gonna be his person, or you just find that these aren't the kind of topics that he's gonna get with somewhere, if you were able to say, you know, "I'd rather talk about you," that was the key of how I kind of had to fix my grandfather and our conversations. I had to tell him anytime he got into this rut, this continuous repeat of a hamster wheel conversation, I'd say, "You know, I'd- I'd much rather hear about you." That was it. "I'd- I'd rather hear about how you're doing." Nobody gets mad, Sammy. Nobody gets upset if you want to move the conversation about them. [laughs] Nobody's like, "Oh, h- no, I don't want to talk about that." Everybody likes to talk about themselves. So when you just kindly say, genuinely say, "I'd rather hear about you. How's everything going? Work good? How's- how's everything?" It shifts the mindset, and they're not gonna be like, "Oh, you- you changed the topic." Everybody likes talking about themselves, uh, especially if it's genuine, this s- this social connection that you're creating. So that's the way I'd handle that, Sammy. Best of luck.

Speaker 26:07 What about, um, the subject of small talk? Which we all... I mean, I think most people hate small talk. I especially-

Jefferson Fisher 26:12 Yeah

Speaker 26:13 ... don't like small talk, but many people hate small talk.

Jefferson Fisher 26:16 You're right.

Speaker 26:16 Is there, is there a skill at all to being a real master of small talk, in your view?

Jefferson Fisher 26:21 One would be don't ask questions that elicit a one-word response. These are what they call closed-ended questions. You want these for a cross-examination 'cause on cross-examination, I just want yes or no questions. "Did you go to the store?" "Yes." "No." I want you on open end... Um, when I'm on direct examination, I wanna open you up to discussion, want you to talk more. So what you do is you take advantage of asking questions that open you up. Ask open-ended questions. These are questions that begin with how or what or when or where. Instead of, uh, like, "Did you go to the store?" The same effect would be, "Did you have a good weekend?"

Speaker 26:57 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 26:57 I'm only limiting you to a yes or a no.

Speaker 27:00 You talk about these conversational goals.

Jefferson Fisher 27:02 Yeah.

Speaker 27:02 Having a conversational goal in your small talk. You talk about that on page, I think, 40, 45, and 46 of, of this book.

Jefferson Fisher 27:08 Yeah.

Speaker 27:09 So as a conversational goal, I'm a podcaster. I know I'm meeting you today, so I walk in here with a goal in mind that when I start speaking to you, I'm trying to get somewhere.

Jefferson Fisher 27:18 Right.

Speaker 27:19 Is that, is that what you mean by conversational goal?

Jefferson Fisher 27:21 Well, there's two separate sides. You wanna have a conversational goal really for any conversation that you're going to have. Now, that's different if, like, you're in your hoodie and sweatpants with your friend watching a movie. Like, you don't have to have a conversational goal. Saying if y- you're on one-on-one with somebody at work, it's not a bad idea if you go into their office, you have a goal for where's the conversation going to end. Because otherwise, it spins anxiety in the other person. Like, if somebody texts you and says, "We need to talk," period, you're like... I, I automatically think it's the worst. I- it's like, oh, something's terrible. They... We're, we're, uh, we're breaking up. Something's terrible. Something's on fire. It's the worst. 'Cause it's that anxiety, that, that trigger of the unknown. So instead, you always wanna have a conversational goal, like the frame we talked about. You're telling them how you want the conversation to end. Same kind of thing with small talk, but when it's much easier when you set a goal that's very low. Like, instead of saying, "I want them to be so impressed with me they don't know what to do," what's more impressive is when you're curious about the other person. "I wanna make sure that I ask at least three questions of this person and see what they have to say." That's a great goal. "I wanna make sure that my goal is understanding where they're coming from just a little bit more." So with small talk, people love to tell them how they got there. People love to talk about themselves. Everybody knows that. One question to ask is how they got to the present moment. For example, "How did you, how did you learn that? Where did you come across this?"

Speaker 28:43 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 28:43 "Yeah, how did you, how'd you get in where you are today?" And people are like, "Oh, well, let me kinda talk about myself for a minute."

Speaker 28:48 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 28:48 And people love it because they get to tell a story. Very different if I just said, "Hey, what'd you do this weekend?" "It, uh, it was good. We just, you know, stayed home." That's not... There's no story element to that. There's nothing you can do with that.

Speaker 29:00 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 29:01 But if you get them to talk about a story of what led them to their present moment, much better. Another tip is you get to talk to them about things that are happening in the future rather than looking at the past. The past is really not that great for people because they feel like it's boring. They f- don't feel like the past is something as that remarkable. But they typically find things that they will look forward to in the conversation. "What are you looking forward to doing this weekend? What are you excited about? What's coming up for you?" They'll find things to go kind of like, "Oh,

Jefferson Fisher 29:31 well, I'm kind of excited about this, why, and z." But if you ask about what's happened in the past, they kind of have this like, "Ah, you know, it just... It's in the past. I didn't really do anything." Now, we all know people that no matter the conversation, they always find a way to talk about themselves. And even if it's not about themselves, it's always seems to be their voice that takes up the entire conversation. On today's episode, we're discussing how to handle people who dominate conversations. When it comes to somebody dominating a conversation, and not in the good way, as in they're not letting anybody else speak, they're the ones always having to hear their own voice, there are some things I need you to do. Number one, interrupt them. You interrupt that person. Now, I know it doesn't sound like me to suggest that, but it's true. Because if they're not going to respect your time, then you have to do it, and there's a particular way I want you to do that. You interrupt them by using their name. You start low, and then you go higher because people listen to their name. Their name gets their attention. It's the best word they can ever hear is their name. So if I were to hear you and I... Or somebody was listening to me and I just said, "Hey, Jefferson. Jefferson" Jefferson, you say it as often and as loud as you need to because it will eventually make them stop. Number two, when they do stop, I want you to filter and pass it. Here's what I mean. Filter as in you're going to summarize what they just said very quickly, and then pass it to somebody else to say, "Hey, I totally hear you. I understand what you're just saying. I'm curious to hear what Bob has to say or what Susie has to say," or you turn it on yourself, "My thoughts are..." And number three, if they're still dominating the conversation, then you gotta put a time limit on it. You have to find a way to get out of there because you're not reaching them. So it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I've got about five more minutes and then I need to get going. I need to do other things." But time limit is the only way to make sure that... They're just gonna continue to talk as long as they have an audience. And at the end of it, you just have to understand when somebody's dominating the conversation, it's not a, it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. It's a monologue, and you didn't buy a ticket to hear it. So if they're not going to respect the way conversations should happen, it's time that you respect yourself. And most of the time, these kind of scenarios happen in meetings. Zoom meeting, in-person meeting, it doesn't matter. Where I see it most is in Zoom meetings because, uh, now after COVID with everything, a lot of the legal world has moved to Zoom where everything is virtual, and I'm sure that's the same way in your world. But what typically happens is that there is, let's say, a dozen people, 10 people, eight people on the Zoom, and before you know it, it's just one person talking the entire time. It's one person who always has an opinion. It's one person who always has to feel like they're contributing to the conversation way more than their share, and they think truly inside themselves, they just don't have the emotional intelligence to realize that people aren't really... They're kinda getting tired of you talking the entire time. That filter isn't there for them, so they just, they keep talking the entire time. And in meetings especially, you have to make sure that person doesn't do that because it'll just kill your meeting. It, it'll, it'll ruin it. It will, it will reduce productivity. It will get people aggravated. You know that feeling where all of a sudden they're, they need to comment again, and everybody kinda lets out a sigh like, "Great. This person again. Oh, geez. I wish we could just go..." It, it, it'll absolutely ruin your, your meeting and the productivity and where you wanna go. So when that kinda thing happens, you have to step out in front of it the first time. If you just let them drone on because you're afraid to offend them, you're afraid to, uh, come out in front and feel like that's being too direct, then you just have to be okay with a bad meeting because it's, it's not going to happen. Also, understand that when people are dominating the conversation, it's often a sense of insecurity. Like most things, we feel that the more we talk, the more intelligent we are, the more people will see how smart we are, how much we're trying to contribute. But often, what I find in meetings is the person who speaks the most is typically the one that knows the least. It's the person who's the least out of touch, so they have to overcompensate and feel like everybody around them can have some kind of faith in them, so they, they talk a whole lot. But often, the more you say, it just shows the less that you know. So you're gonna be careful about that in your next meeting. But here's the takeaway. When somebody's dominating and trying to control the conversation,

Jefferson Fisher 34:05 you have to step out in front of it quickly because if you don't, it can, it can go south in a hurry. And I hear some of you already going, "Jefferson, I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting this person. I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting them. They're gonna get upset if I interrupt them." No, they're not. They're gonna wanna stop and listen. Maybe they might be a little bit frustrated, but your purpose is true, and here's how I'm going to help you with that. When you need to interrupt somebody, there's a difference between me just starting to share my thought. Let's say, for example, you're talking to me, telling me a story, and I've heard this story a million times. There's a difference between me cutting in and going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we, we all know. We all know, okay?" And then just ignoring you and continue to go on with my thought. That's gonna upset you, right? That's gonna make you feel like, "Oh, they just, they just interrupted me. They just cut me off." But if I were to use your name and say, "Jefferson, I need to interrupt you," all of a sudden it doesn't feel like an interruption because I told you what it is. I told you that I'm interrupting you, and I know we've discussed this before on the podcast on how to handle interruptions, but it's the same, same true for people who dominate conversations. If I tell you that I'm interrupting you, if I say, "I know I'm interrupting," or, "I need to interrupt you," nobody takes offense to it because here you're acknowledging what you're doing. It's, it's the acknowledgement of the formality. Say, "Yes, I understand. Typically, I should not be interrupting. I should be hearing you out." And in this case, you have to because they're not respecting the formality of I say something, then you say something. I say something, you say something. It's, it's just all about them. So if you took... think about it in a pie chart, there's these people who control the conversation to hear their own voice a lot of ways, and they're totally fine with taking up 98% of the pie and leaving 2% to you, really for that 2% to tell them how great they are or how smart they are. We're not gonna be doing that. Here, it's as simple as using their name because it's going to get their attention. They're gonna perk up to that, to when you say, "Hey, Jefferson." They're... It's gonna automatically turn, turn to you. They're gonna look at you, especially the more you raise your voice in that way, but you're gonna do it kind. You're not gonna do it in a way that is rough or rude or just exasperated. That's gonna, that's gonna make it go further south. Here, you are pulling them back in, in a way, nudging them back in to how a conversation is supposed to go, es- especially one that you're going to be involved in. Because understand, what you're doing here is also informing them, "Hey, if you wanna have a conversation with me, this is how this is gonna go. I'm gonna say something. You're gonna say something, and we're gonna acknowledge each other points. I'm not here... I didn't buy a ticket to listen to the show where I just sit, and you get to say everything, and I have to be quiet." That's not it. Here, you are showing them your manual. "If, if you wanna communicate with me, this is how you're going to do it." So when you use their name, it gets their attention, and it's easy way, if you feel like you're being too direct, to tell them I need to interrupt you. Mind... This is a big key. This is a big key point of this, mind you. Do not apologize. Ah. Look at me. Listen to me. Don't apologize. Don't say, "I, I'm so, I'm so sorry to interrupt you." You are not sorry for it. You are not sorry for it. Here, you need to do it. It is them that has put you in this position, so you're not gonna apologize for having a boundary. You're not gonna apologize for needing to take a stance and say, "This, this can't continue." Cool? So you're not gonna say, "I'm sorry." It is, "I need to interrupt you." Uh, that is as simple as that, or, "I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting you." Both of those will even allow them to go, "Okay, I'm listening." It'll totally turn it to you, and they're not gonna take offense to it because you're acknowledging it in the moment. And one point I want to make very clear is that once you interrupt them and filter and pass it, part of that is the acknowledgement. It is key that when you need to take the conversation away from somebody who is dominating and monopolizing the conversation, you acknowledge what they have said. Summarize it very briefly, even if just one sentence, because it, it... Otherwise, they're going to feel totally shut down and dismissed, and it's going to lead to negative things. I don't want that for you. You can simply cure that b- by summarizing what they just said. For example, let's assume that, um, you are talking to me on a given topic, and I interrupt you. Let's say your name's Jefferson. Weird name. Such a lame name. [laughs] And I need to interrupt you, and I just go, "Hey, hey Jefferson, Jefferson." And then all of a sudden I just start, cut off my thought and I go, "Hey, hey Jefferson, I, I wanna hear what Lauren has to say about this." You s- Hear how all of a sudden I just felt... You, you feel cut off from me? If I were to say, "Hey Jefferson, yeah, I wanna, yeah, I, I wanna hear what Greg has to say," you're gonna feel cut off immediately. Instead, if I said, "Hey Jefferson, I hear you. I, I agree that this point and that point and that point," or, "I, I hear you that this is something that is frustrating you. I don't disagree. I'd like to hear what so and so has to say, um, on this point." Here I just, I f- I summarize it. I say, "Thank you for what you've shared." Again, I'm distilling it to the important point, and then I pass it to somebody else, or you can pass it to yourself easily. It's just as simple as, as saying, "Hey, hey Jefferson, I, I hear your point. I, I'm not saying I agree with it. My thought here is blah, blah, blah." I- you're just taking it because you've acknowledged what they've said, and then now you're passing it on to the next one because they're not sharing the ball, right? They're, they're hogging the ball the, the entire time. So it's on you to kinda kindly take it from their hands and pass it on to continue playing the game. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen. I also wanna make sure and add a disclaimer in here that people who monopolize conversations and, and dominate them, it's not necessarily on purpose. It goes back to what I originally said is it's an insecurity. Bottom line, it's an insecurity type thing that they don't realize how much they're talking. I find in my world that it is people who get older in life that don't realize how much they're talking. It is also the plain sense of let's just, let's, let's approach that situation, that situation with some grace in that you may be the only person they've spoken to. You, you might be... If it's somebody who's, um, older, and they haven't seen anybody today, and you're now the one that's gonna be talking to them, they might have a week's worth of information, of stories and things that they just want to share because in that moment they have a reason for feeling like they're alive and valuable and important and, and you're gonna be the one, the, the focus in that. If that's the kinda situation, then you just need to be patient. It's that moment where instead of going, "Oh, this is such a waste of time," being reflective and saying, "I need to slow down a little bit. What, what's here for me?" So understand there's always two sides of the same coin, especially for even people that are neurodivergent and they have ADHD. Maybe, um, they have other kinds of, um, issues that make it difficult in the way their brain functions to not stop talking, and that's, that's nothing... That does not mean that it's a weakness. It just means it's something to learn and to deal with, uh, and differently, and that, that's my whole point of this episode is not that people who dominate conversations are evil and terrible. It is simply that it happens naturally with everybody, including yourself, and that just means it's, it's something to handle and react to and respond to in

Jefferson Fisher 42:12 a very productive and efficient way. Here's a hard truth. If you don't advocate for yourself, nobody will, and if you don't assert your needs, let's face it, you will get walked over every single time. At the end of today's episode, you're not going to have to worry about it. We're talking how to stand up for yourself. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because number one, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality, and we're gonna talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number two, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before you say what you need to say like, "Hey, I'm, I'm sorry, but I, I, I just feel like maybe..." We're gonna talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number three, stop justifying the no's. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turned somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence, and I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they threw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You can just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to, and often that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life, the people that l- that rank low in our priority list, but yet we, we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk. Eliminate that concern. When people play chess, it's expected that you're gonna take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook. Okay. They want to take a queen. That's different. Understand that there's gonna be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life, lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The, the feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, uh, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you have the choice of just letting it go, saying, "That does not re- require any response from me. That is not worth my time." That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, ask the question, "Is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy?" Because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, "Is this person worth getting out of my chair for?" Because I, I know my worth. And please understand that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not gonna be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, "I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm gonna take it and set it aside." Personally, what I do in my, my own life is I have a wastebasket. All right? I have a trash, um, bag right next to me in my mind, and if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them and I have to pick up that trash, that gross, nasty thing that they said and give it right back to them, I just take it and I move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like, uh, at a computer or a laptop. You just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in, in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often, there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a, I don't know, what do they have? Like, the cold plunge or, uh, a, a pool that's filled with cold water. If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse. When you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them. This sounds like, "Hey, um, you know, I've just been... I, I, I just feel like I need to, uh, say this, I guess. It's... And maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but..." You ever heard that? You ever said that before, where you say, "Uh, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm, I'm sorry, but, but maybe, you know, I, I, I'm just feeling more like..." You're trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like, you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, when it comes to stating your needs, nobody's gonna do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So, uh, think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices. You don't say it at all, or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, they don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of I'm gonna put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time. If it is something that is on your heart and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it right here, for you to be able to state your peace, assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're gonna talk later in this... ... podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, uh, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making, of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying, "No, because," after the end of it, using that word because to justify it, and just saying no. For example, let's say you ask me a question and I just said, "No. No," versus, "No, uh, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about and, you know, I, I gotta make sure that I take care of this, and it's just been really busy lately and I've just been so stressed, you know? And so, well, I have that other thing, you know?" You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden I- I've added three more sentences after the no, and I've slowly watered down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying, "No, because." It's just no, and if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, right, on this idea of just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation, or if there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal, um, it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer. You add in everything afterwards. "No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z." You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say and what I support is no is a complete sentence.

Speaker 51:20 How do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should?

Jefferson Fisher 51:25 The biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. There's a lot of people that you, if you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are gonna get tired. Like, you just, some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't.

Speaker 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 51:43 There are some people that if you really feel like a- an injustice, like for me, a driving principle is justice. If I feel like something is unjust-

Speaker 51:53 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 51:53 ... I'm much more, um, I guess it's unjust f- then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, "No, no, this is not, this isn't cool. That's not fair."

Speaker 52:02 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 52:02 "This isn't equal. That you don't talk, you don't treat people that way." But if you, if you're the, the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen-

Speaker 52:15 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 52:15 ... nearly as much. It's, it's the walk quietly with a, a big stick-

Speaker 52:20 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 52:20 ... kind of mentality. I mean, when, when you wanna stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I, I can, I can choose to say nothing, and a lot of the times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're gonna say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang, oh, it's, it's one of the most powerful things you can do-

Speaker 52:43 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 52:44 ... is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me-

Speaker 52:49 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 52:49 ... and then they just don't do it as much.

Speaker 52:51 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 52:52 You sh- you're telling them it's not gonna be fun for you if you go down this road with me.

Speaker 52:55 Interesting. Where did you learn that?

Jefferson Fisher 52:58 A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book I talk about my, I'm the oldest of four.

Speaker 53:04 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 53:05 I'm a fifth generation trial attorney, so I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood where... a g- a wonderful childhood where I'd get pick up from school, like get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of four, had a lot of experience just resolving conflict, uh, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister, and then my two younger brothers. And then a lot of it is, um, you'd think it was law school, but it's not.

Speaker 53:36 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 53:37 You have trials, but it's, trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's, let's say you're my witness, and let's say you're opposing, you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's gonna be ready to jump in and object to every question I have.

Speaker 54:01 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 54:01 You have a judge that's gonna rule on the evidence of if my question passes. You have a bailiff, court reporter, and then there's probably 12 people, if we're in district court in the state of Texas, that are going to all be listening to everything that I do, and it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it.

Speaker 54:18 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 54:18 So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're gonna think, "Oh, that's bad for his case." If I, if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad like, "Oh, that's not true," they're gonna know, oh, this is actually bad for his case.

Speaker 54:38 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 54:38 It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it, there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing.

Speaker 54:50 Wow. So it's, trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker.

Jefferson Fisher 54:55 Oh, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play the hands that you're dealt-

Speaker 54:58 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 54:58 ... so let's put it at that. Um, you know, I can't, I can't choose better facts.

Speaker 55:02 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:02 I can't choose the law that I'm wanting to use. And the same way, it's not really winning.

Speaker 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:08 I mean, you might have a better hand than me

Speaker 55:10 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 55:10 ... but it's just how I play it.

Speaker 55:12 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 55:12 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 55:12 And can I give it away or not?

Jefferson Fisher 55:14 Yeah.

Speaker 55:14 It's fascinating.

Jefferson Fisher 55:15 Well, and the thing is people think that trial is this whole, a gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows everybody's facts before you go in.

Speaker 55:22 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:22 None of it's a surprise.

Speaker 55:24 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:24 None of it. Uh, every- you, I know all your bad facts, you know all of my bad facts. We all, all know each other's bruises. It's just who can, who can play the fiddle better. And, uh, it's, it's a weird situation in which when I ask you a question, I'm also wanting the jury to hear what you say and how that compares with the facts that I have. So, a lot of the tools that I teach about framing conversations, it's the same way of how I would frame a question or h- how I'd give a big roadmap or how-

Speaker 55:52 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 55:52 ... I would kind of make you say what I want you to say, or how I have it open or closed-ended question. It's all kind of the same principles.

Speaker 55:59 Interesting. Do you use the principles with your wife too?

Jefferson Fisher 56:03 No.

Speaker 56:03 She call you, she call you out?

Jefferson Fisher 56:04 No. She's also an attorney.

Speaker 56:06 Does she- Oh [laughs] , so she knows.

Jefferson Fisher 56:06 Yeah, we went to law school together. Oh, oh my goodness, yeah, and she knows immediately if I'm trying... She'd say, "Don't cross-examine me."

Speaker 56:11 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 56:12 Like, it's, like, it's very, very quick. She's very quick to say that. And so, um, it's, there's a certain style of cross-examination where if you start to just steam 'em out, it's like, nope, you can't.

Speaker 56:23 What would that sound like?

Jefferson Fisher 56:24 That's never gonna happen. You use short little statements.

Speaker 56:26 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:27 So, typically in TV, you see the wrong stuff. TV's all so fake when it comes to questions. "Isn't it true whether or, you know, isn't it true, Honor, about December 21st, 2024, you were at the Buc-ee's in Bastrop, Texas, yes or no?" They're, you're never gonna get that, that kind of answer-

Speaker 56:45 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 56:45 ... from somebody, and you've seen it, like, at the Johnny Depp trial.

Speaker 56:48 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 56:48 Like, people ask really bad questions. Really, um, the best cross-examination aren't questions. They're very short statements.

Speaker 56:56 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:57 And so maybe I'm wanting to draw out that the car that you saw that weekend was red. And so I'd, I'd say something like, "You were out that weekend?" You have to say, "Yeah." You see how I haven't, I didn't say yes or no.

Speaker 57:11 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 57:11 I say, "You were out that weekend?" "Yeah." "You saw a car?"

Speaker 57:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 57:16 "Car, car was red?" And then sometimes they go, "Well, you know, I don't know. I really don't," and they start going on and on and on. So it's, the witness is trying to run on you, trying to make you look bad, and all you do is just come back, "Red. The car was red." "Uh, yeah." See, it's really easy to do that in, let's say, at the kitchen table-

Speaker 57:31 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 57:32 ... if you're, like, wanting to make a, a point, but that'll get you in trouble, so.

Speaker 57:35 Yeah, if your wife's an attorney.

Jefferson Fisher 57:36 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't allow any of that.

Speaker 57:38 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 57:38 She ca- she catches that real quick.

Speaker 57:40 Yeah, my husband does the opposite. He does the CIA method, which is often saying things like, um, oh, um, like I'll be like, "Hey, you know, did you do X, Y, and Z?" And he'll be like, "X, Y, and Z?"

Jefferson Fisher 57:52 Yeah.

Speaker 57:52 And then I'll be like, "Yeah, you know, d- when I said that we were gonna do this." And eventually he'll just keep asking the question back like, "Oh, did I do that?" And finally I'll, I'll either just get annoyed and walk away 'cause I don't think-

Jefferson Fisher 58:03 [laughs]

Speaker 58:03 ... he's understanding me.

Jefferson Fisher 58:04 Yeah.

Speaker 58:04 And it works beautifully, actually.

Jefferson Fisher 58:05 Like the mirroring?

Speaker 58:06 Yeah, exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 58:08 Yeah.

Speaker 58:08 And except now that I'm onto it.

Jefferson Fisher 58:10 Yeah.

Speaker 58:10 He got me for years with that.

Jefferson Fisher 58:12 Years?

Speaker 58:12 Yeah, I think I was just slow on the uptick. It's like never mind.

Jefferson Fisher 58:14 [laughs] That's funny.

Speaker 58:15 I'm just, I'm just not gonna get engaged.

Jefferson Fisher 58:17 Yeah. [laughs] If I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation, if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about, if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value, what do you think is the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you? It's a feeling, and that feeling is warmth. If you really wanna portray confidence, there's the temptation to feel like you have to be big, that you need to be right in their face. Hey, high energy, high impact all the time. Th- th- that does not convey confidence right away. It conveys desperation. It might convey eagerness. It might convey too much. So if somebody's just, you're s- you're sitting with me, uh, or with anybody, and you come on super strong, that might throw off the, the equilibrium of the conversation, where it's going, "Oh, this is, this is, this is too much. I'm just getting to, to know you." So it's much more easier if you think about the feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you. So if I wanna portray confidence, uh, it's to slow down my words, to make sure that I don't uptalk with things. It's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention. I'm not looking around the room. I, I'm, I'm focused right with you. My chin's up. I'm not looking down. My shoulders are back, and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy. Why do you think people come on too strong in conversations? A desire to be loved, a desire to be liked, a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else. It, it's, it's just overcompensating most of the time. If somebody is... You're wanting to project high energy. It's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people. You're speaking to a bigger audience. Got it. You need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a lar- much bigger number of people. But if it's just one person, you, you don't need to come on that strong. It's much easier just to meet them where they are. In other words, I don't have to, I, I don't have to come parachute into the conversation. I just need to walk up and shake your hand, and they need to feel that in your voice and, and your tone and your tenor and how that operates. Yeah, I mean, I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time, the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was. Because I was so miserable with who, with the person that I was, I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me, um, because of the way that I was feeling. And then what I realized is, you know, most people aren't really paying attention to that. You actually look more unconfident when you're trying to, you know, fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation. Like, I'm wondering

Speaker 1:01:18 I know for me, it, it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms, fitness, my relationship to myself, my, my personal relationships, purpose, and so on, that that allowed me to be able to, I think, sit here and be able to have these conversations like this. Do you think that for you personally, is that the way to appear more high value, you know, high level of self-respect, et cetera, or is it just exposure therapy through practice, through having conversations like this?

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:53 It's a comfort with yourself. It, it, it... Exposure helps just by repetition. I mean, you can only know so much. It has to have application. But it comes from within. Now, I see this a lot of time in a, at a jury trial. So as a litigator, I go to court, and often I will have a witness, or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors in the jury want them to be. They wanna, need to portray some... Maybe they need to portray sympathy, hoping to gather sympathy from the jury. But people have a sixth sense about them. We can just tell. Uh, there's no way to really put words to it, but it's very easy to go, "That person is not being true to who they are. Something is off. Something is... I can't describe it, but I can just feel it. I can hear it." You know it when you see it. And so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are, but that typically draws away. It doesn't, it rarely, if ever, gives you the outcome that you want. Authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside. People, it's l- l- leave the window fronts for, for shopping, but don't, don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality, because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have, which is based upon a f- a f- a falsity, or it's going to eventually grind you down, because after a while, it's just gonna be friction. Uh, and, and that's gonna have a rub, and that's gonna get worn, and, and that's gonna be hard to... You're gonna have that identity crisis further down the road. Much better to, to be who you are now.

Speaker 1:03:36 Yeah, we often have that problem with overcorrection, right? Where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem, we wanna overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do, and people can pick up on that right away. But I will say, I think on the, the opposite end of that, like I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand. If they have a weak handshake, I can just tell, like, they're, they're struggling. They got something going on. They have a low level of self-esteem. Maybe this is me overgeneralizing, but, but for the most part, that's just maybe my perception and my bias in people who walk with and looking, you know, at the ground when they're walking, because I did all of that, and I wasn't very confident. So do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident, passive, they're maybe not an extrovert, but they're trying to appear confident, how, h- like in your experience, like what's the best way for somebody to bridge that gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive, having a weak handshake, looking down, but they're also not coming out as this over-charismatic person which can be easy for people to pick up on right away?

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:44 Hmm. It's a, it's a balance, and that balance is specific to context. It's specific to the situation and, uh, a lot of different factors. There's this fear, and it's, it's a, it's a type of psychological threat of identity, and that makes you question, "What if they don't like me? What if they don't like who I am? Is who I am enough in this moment?" And, uh, that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake, but it causes you to, to feel down, to have that negative energy. Whereas on the opposite end, if you're always, always needing s- to be the person to say something, often the person who says the most knows the least. Uh, you, you've been in those boardroom meetings, and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on. But the confident person, the authentic person knows that they don't have anything to prove. So the advice is understand you have nothing to prove. Your value is exactly what your value is. You don't dilute it by saying too much. You don't undervalue it by not saying enough. So it's this, this understanding of, "I don't have anything to prove, not with my words, not with my actions. I know exactly who I am." And that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively. It allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more when your words are more concentrated, when you say less. Confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything. They don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind. The person who's the most knowledgeable in the room, typically in that board meeting, is the one who says the least. And so it's, it's, it's always the, the reverse of what we, what we originally think.

Speaker 1:06:36 What are some things that we can say, um, or even some actions that we can do to make people trust us more and, and maybe improve our credibility? This could be, um, how maybe what, how you do as a lawyer in a professional setting or maybe even like in a personal setting. How do we get people to, to trust us more?

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:55 That's a hard question. I, I would say to wanna be trusted more, you have to create a safe space for people to come into. Like when you... Think about walking into a home. You can tell, or a room, you can tell pretty quickly if you walk into a room and feel, "Okay, I'm, I'm safe." You walk into a friend's house, you feel more comfortable. You walk into a stranger's house, you're much more stiff and rigid. You're just not as comfortable in their space 'cause you don't know if it's safe yet. And I use safe in a way To say you don't feel like you can relax. You have all your systems kind of watching out for anything. Um, what I like to do to create that safe space is to acknowledge that they came to me and that they're talking to me, and that I show positivity in that. For example, with kids, right? You, you- especially when they get older and you're s- you want them to feel like they can trust you with anything, right? That they, they're gonna... They're not gonna hide stuff from you. They're not gonna go to somebody else to share things with. You wanna be their person. Same, it, it... Maybe not just kids, maybe it's coworkers, maybe it's, uh, your employees. Whatever it is, you wanna feel like you're a safe place. First step in that is to make them feel like their presence is invited, that, that you feel like I, I just... You're, you're, you're saying, "I acknowledge that you had choices with who you shared this information with. I'm glad that you came to me." So an easy way to say that is, "I'm glad that you came to me with this. I'm glad you're talking to me about this." So it's, "I'm glad you are talking to me." Just that period alone is going to show, okay, confirm in their mind, uh, what means more. You come to me with bad news, and all of a sudden I just flip out. I, I'm, I start yelling at you, "How could you? What are you talking about? You did this." That's not gonna create trust because that doesn't create a safe space, right? Much rather to start with a big, [sighs] "I'm really glad you came with, to me with this." Now, now you feel safe. Now you feel a lot more at ease. Um, "Thank you for telling me. Gla- I'm glad you came to me. Thank you for telling me." And then when they get to share that with you instead of trying to correct them, it's appreciating their perspective. Then, then get to share what your advice is or what you're feeling. But if you really wanna c- create trust, you have to indicate to them that y- they are okay and they are safe.

Speaker 1:09:30 Something, another example of this that I've heard you mention is it's like you had a case once where someone was like, um, trash talking all lawyers, and they were kinda bringing you into the mix. And your response was, "You know what? Maybe you're right." And I feel like that-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:44 Yeah

Speaker 1:09:44 ... that statement itself built trust too, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:47 Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Um, because I'm not disagreeing with them, and they're hearing the, the, the word "right". So there's a, there's concepts of, in psychology I know of being flexible. So if you're being too loose in the way you think, you open the door for chaos. If you're really close-minded, you keep everything really tight, well, then you can't really let anybody in, and you can't let anybody out. So if you stay flexible in this kind of, "Well, maybe so" mindset, of a "we'll see" mindset. We'll see. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? And you keep that kind of mindset, you're staying flexible. And in that particular position, when they're saying, you know, "Attorneys are the worst thing ever," all right, well, I could choose to get defensive, or I can choose to be flexible and say, "Well [laughs] maybe you're right." And what are they gonna say? I mean, it, it, it totally, like, defangs the whole situation. I've, I've shown some humility of saying, "Well, it's... Maybe you're, maybe there's some truth to that." And there is. In any profession, in any... Y- you always consider the possibility that I could be wrong at any given point. Um, and to say that they're... Just use, for them to hear the word "right" is just gonna calm them immediately versus b- I, I could say, "You're wrong. You're so wrong." They're just gonna prickle. They're gonna bristle right there. I don't lose anything at all by saying, "Well, yeah, maybe you're right."

Speaker 1:11:16 What would you say, why is it so important that people get communication right? Like, what do you think-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:21 Yeah

Speaker 1:11:21 ... impact it will have on people's lives? Like, for the people that are listening, why should they care so much about their communication?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:28 Communication is the thing that connects, uh, everything that's, has happened and will happen.

Speaker 1:11:34 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:34 It's impossible not to communicate-

Speaker 1:11:36 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:36 ... unless you're not alive.

Speaker 1:11:37 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:38 If there's communication, that's one thing, but when you don't communicate, even when there's silence, you're still communicating-

Speaker 1:11:45 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:45 ... something. If I don't respond to your text in five minutes, that says something.

Speaker 1:11:49 Mm-hmm. Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:50 If I, if I don't respond to your text in five days-

Speaker 1:11:52 It means you don't like me at all

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:53 ... it sa- it says something else.

Speaker 1:11:54 [laughs] True. That's true

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:55 And, and so it, like in a silence, in a pause, it might be the absence of words, but it's not the absence of communication. E- everything that's led you to this point has happened from your, your words.

Speaker 1:12:08 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:08 In, in, in many ways, it is very true that what you say is who you are, Krista. I mean, it's just, it's just what it is.

Speaker 1:12:16 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:16 It's, for the vast majority of your life, people will only experience you based on what comes out of your mouth-

Speaker 1:12:22 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:22 ... what you say. Like, if somebody says something and you just meet them for the first time and they leave, right away you're gonna go, "I, I like that person."

Speaker 1:12:30 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:30 What you meant is they said nice things.

Speaker 1:12:33 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:33 Or if you don't like somebody's attitude and they're rude, you're not gonna like that person.

Speaker 1:12:36 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:36 So it's really the power of your words, or even go with conflict.

Speaker 1:12:39 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:40 Like, how you led to who you found now, most likely if you had ex-boyfriend, ex-husband, or whatever, there was a conflict-

Speaker 1:12:50 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:51 ... and how that conflict was handled led to the next event.

Speaker 1:12:53 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:54 How you left that job because there was a conflict, and you got let go, or you left, led you to the next thing.

Speaker 1:12:59 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:00 So it's communication i- is, um, in everything that you do.

Speaker 1:13:05 Mm-hmm. With relationships, if we were to speak on that, what I've found in my relationships is like, yeah, it's so interesting you said it was so much the unsaid because it was- [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:17 Yeah

Speaker 1:13:17 ... so much more unsaid than said. And it was crazy to witness 'cause I think my parents would do this too. My parents got divorced. They did their best, but it's like they would be having whole dialogues in their heads that would not be verbalized into words-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:31 Yeah

Speaker 1:13:31 ... or communicated into words.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:13:33 What's happening there when people, even with their bosses or friends, where it's just the mind is really going and the mind has a lot to say, but they're unable to bring it to words?

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:43 Well- A lot of the problem is they're waiting till they're talking to figure out what they want to say.

Speaker 1:13:49 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:50 So they haven't done the work ahead of time. All they've done is just expect it to go how it's gone in their head.

Speaker 1:13:56 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:56 How they... He said it in the shower, how they said it... I mean, they make great points when they're driving in their car. But when it [laughs] comes to meeting that person face to face, they can't, they can't do anything because they haven't, they haven't laid that groundwork.

Speaker 1:14:08 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:09 Or let's say you and I come home after a long day. You've been thinking about something you need to talk to me about, and you've been thinking about it for eight hours. Eight hours you've been stewing on it.

Speaker 1:14:21 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:21 Are-

Speaker 1:14:21 Clocked into my job.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:22 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:14:23 Started thinking. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:24 You, you, i- you know everything about what you wanna talk about. Meanwhile, I get home, and you're like, "Hey, can I talk to you for a second?" Uh, and then you just dump, uh, eight hours worth of thought and emotion that's important to you.

Speaker 1:14:37 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:37 I'm catching a cold.

Speaker 1:14:39 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:39 You know, I- I'm not ready. What are you d- where is this coming from? And all of a sudden you expect me to carry the same importance and weight to it as you have for the last eight hours when I'm, I, I'm not ready for this. And so you, you have 100% of a subject you wanna talk about when I have 20% of the bandwidth. It's just gonna, it's gonna go south every time.

Speaker 1:15:00 How would you as a couple then, so... 'Cause that's a situation that happens with people.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:04 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:15:04 What would you say... So let's talk about for her.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:15:08 You know, if, if you are stewing all day, what's the strategy that she can take, and what is the strategy that the man, if we're saying this is a man, can take in that situation?

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:16 Yeah. One, you want, always wanna make sure you have dedicated time for the important conversations.

Speaker 1:15:21 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:21 I'm not talking about, like, just, "Hey, how was your day?" "It was good."

Speaker 1:15:23 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:23 The little bitty things. That's, that's fine. The big major conversations need to have uninterrupted, dedicated time that you have set aside for it. Even if that pers- y'all have five minutes to talk about it in that timeframe, it's, it's still better to push it off for another five minutes just so you both can ready yourself for what you're going to talk about.

Speaker 1:15:45 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:45 "Hey, when, when you get about 10 minutes here in a little bit, just let me know." It's much better to prepare them. So if you're the, let's say from the woman's standpoint, uh, in our scenario.

Speaker 1:15:54 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:55 You wanna use a frame, and how I teach frames is that you tell them what you wanna talk about, how you wanna feel after-

Speaker 1:16:04 Mm. I love that

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:04 ... the conversation is over, and that's the big part, telling them how you wanna feel after the conversation. And three, you get their buy-in to it, and it sounds like this. Let's say, uh, we get home, and you've already texted me in the day, "Hey, I, can we spend 10 minutes for a conversation that I want to talk about later?" Perfect. So we're in that time. You're gonna start with, "Hey, Jefferson, I, I'd like to talk with you about something you said last, last Tuesday."

Speaker 1:16:29 You said the name, so that means trouble.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:16:32 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:32 It... Well, you know what I mean. Let's just say-

Speaker 1:16:34 Hey, babe

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:34 ... Hey, babe.

Speaker 1:16:35 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:35 Hey, babe. Bae. Whatever it is. Uh, hey, love. And I'd like to talk with you about, you know, what, what happened last night, and I, I wanna walk away with the conversation, I wanna walk away from the conversation, or I wanna walk away with, or I want to end the conversation feeling like X, Y, and Z.

Speaker 1:16:52 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:52 So it could be as simple as even, "I'm not asking you to fix anything."

Speaker 1:16:57 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:57 "I just need you to hear me out," or, "I just want to say this. I just need to feel understood. I don't need you to do anything with it." Now, telling me that ahead of time, super helpful. Otherwise-

Speaker 1:17:07 Super helpful

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:08 ... I'm looking how to fix it the entire time.

Speaker 1:17:09 Totally.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:10 Then the, the third step is you're just getting their buy-in. That's-

Speaker 1:17:14 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:14 ... sounds as simple as, "That sound good? Can we do that? Is that... Are you willing to do that?" And now-

Speaker 1:17:18 Getting a yes before you start.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:19 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:19 It's a good point.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:19 Because now it's like I've signed an invisible contract. Now I'm in it with you, and I don't wanna break my word 'cause I've agreed to it. The key is, for both people, you stay within that subject. If you don't, if you break out of that-

Speaker 1:17:34 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:34 ... and you, you go, "You know what? Actually..." and you wanna bring up-

Speaker 1:17:37 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:37 ... five other different things, well, now you've busted out your frame. Now you've-

Speaker 1:17:41 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:41 Now everything had cut loose.

Speaker 1:17:43 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:43 Instead, you wanna try and dial in just on that one issue. For the guy's perspective, one big part of it is conversations go south when somebody forces you to have a conversation you're not ready for.

Speaker 1:17:54 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:55 So if I need to say, "I can tell I'm not ready for this con- I do wanna talk about this. I can tell right now I'm not ready for a good conversation. I'm not ready for this conversation."

Speaker 1:18:03 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:03 "I wanna talk about it. I, I... Let me... Can we do it after dinner?"

Speaker 1:18:07 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:07 "Give me, give me some time. I've..." You n- you have to communicate that you're not ready.

Speaker 1:18:11 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:11 'Cause when people say, "Hey, you have five minutes?" what they really mean is, "Hey, do you have about 45 minutes for me to tell you a story that could really waste your time?"

Speaker 1:18:17 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:17 Means nothing. Like, if somebody says, "Hey, you got a second?" It depends. Like, like, do you have a second to what?

Speaker 1:18:23 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:23 Tell me you like my shoes?

Speaker 1:18:24 Are you lying? [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:24 Or, or, yeah. Are you about to just come in and, and wreck my entire day?

Speaker 1:18:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:28 Uh, like, that's... Can you just let me know? Can we put a s-

Speaker 1:18:31 Yeah, honestly, let's do the scale.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:32 Yeah. I'm gonna send you this feedback form-

Speaker 1:18:34 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:34 ... so you can go ahead and let me know how, [laughs] how that's gonna go.

Speaker 1:18:37 I really like the, um, I really like that frame for women to think about, especially with men.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:18:42 Because a lot of men are gonna be, "What can I fix? What can I do?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:45 Right.

Speaker 1:18:46 So expressing the feeling that you're wanting to have, and I also think it's helpful 'cause it gives women the clarity to really think about it. It's like, "Okay, how do I wanna feel?" 'Cause I think if you're in the reactive mode of frustration or anger-

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:57 Yes

Speaker 1:18:57 ... you could be like, "I wanna feel fucking..."

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:59 Right. Yeah, you wanna get after it.

Speaker 1:19:00 I wanna... Yeah, I wanna feel.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:19:02 I wanna square up. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:19:04 I wanna punch you in the face. So it's like, okay, how can I regulate in my system? Like, coming out of the fight or flight-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:10 Mm

Speaker 1:19:10 ... and I think this is a lot of... I wanna talk about that, too, like, the relationship to the body.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:16 Yes.

Speaker 1:19:16 Because so much of it is you getting triggered and then you losing the plot or losing-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:21 Right

Speaker 1:19:21 ... you know what I mean? Like, the, this... Where it's like... 'Cause I was even thinking, for a lot of previous relationships I was in, if I was like, "Hey, do you have, like, 10 minutes?" It would be, like, fucking terrifying.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:32 [laughs]

Speaker 1:19:32 And it was probably me creating the situation that made the terror.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:35 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:19:35 But, like, I, I think a lot of people get really nervous with, like, the request for time 'cause they think they're in trouble.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:19:41 Do you find that?

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:43 Oh, uh, yeah. It's... And let me tell you why that happens.

Speaker 1:19:46 Why? [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:46 All right? Because it is- It is telling them that there is something to fear that is unknown.

Speaker 1:19:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:53 One of the biggest trug- triggers is the fear of the unknown.

Speaker 1:19:56 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:56 Now let's say you and I are working and I text you, "I need to talk to you," period, or worse, "We need to talk," period.

Speaker 1:20:05 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:05 You're going to think... You wanna call me immediately.

Speaker 1:20:07 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:07 "What, what happened? What's going on?"

Speaker 1:20:08 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:08 "Oh, my gosh, something..." I mean, it is... Or, "Oh, my... It, it's over. He, he hates me."

Speaker 1:20:13 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:13 "Everything's gone. I've done something wrong." It's all fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.

Speaker 1:20:16 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:17 And that anxiety takes over. That's what happens.

Speaker 1:20:20 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:20 And that's why you're saying it's, it feels terrifying for that other person because constantly we're looking to see that fight or flight. Is there a bear in the bush?

Speaker 1:20:29 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:30 Like, what's gonna come out to get me?

Speaker 1:20:32 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:32 So our body's already doing that. What I talk about in my book is, like, these three main pillars of say it with control, say it with confidence, say it to connect. And part of saying it-

Speaker 1:20:41 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:41 ... with control is what you just lined out is with your body. So our body is very much tied to how we communicate.

Speaker 1:20:50 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:50 When you hear somebody yell, what they're trying to do is scare you away.

Speaker 1:20:56 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:56 It's the fight or flight.

Speaker 1:20:57 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:57 When somebody says a hurtful word or a word that is cutting, well, it's 'cause they're trying to physically-

Speaker 1:21:03 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:03 ... make you go away.

Speaker 1:21:05 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:05 That it's a threat. Maybe you said something that undermined me, and my body goes, "Hey, Jefferson, I don't-

Speaker 1:21:10 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:11 ... hey, so I didn't like that, uh, that tone that I heard."

Speaker 1:21:13 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:14 "Hey, so I didn't like that." Uh, and all of a sudden I'm gonna get defensive 'cause my body's saying, "Uh, I don't like this threat."

Speaker 1:21:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:19 "I feel triggered by this."

Speaker 1:21:20 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:21 And there's lots of different ways to feel triggered. Knowing your triggers are ve- is very important.

Speaker 1:21:26 Mm, that's a good one.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:26 But when that happens, your body naturally goes into it. Like, right that, that moment between a conversation and an argument.

Speaker 1:21:36 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:36 Like, when there's just enough friction that it starts to ignite and things rub you the wrong way, it, uh, it kinda just takes, it takes over. That's why your, your pupils will dilate-

Speaker 1:21:47 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:47 ... so you're focused in. Your nostrils will flare to, like, get you more oxygen. You feel ner- like, you shake.

Speaker 1:21:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:54 You're, you get tense-

Speaker 1:21:54 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:54 ... 'cause your body's just physically ready to go.

Speaker 1:21:57 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:58 Or on the f- like, fight or flight-

Speaker 1:22:01 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:01 ... you're wanting to hang up the phone. You wanna leave the room.

Speaker 1:22:04 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:04 You want to get out... I, m- who, who... How many times have you said, "I can't do this."

Speaker 1:22:08 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:09 "I'm not gonna do this right now."

Speaker 1:22:09 Oh, my God, many.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:10 And you're ready, and you're ready to go. It is your fight or flight saying, "Get out of there."

Speaker 1:22:14 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:14 And that's-

Speaker 1:22:15 I'm done

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:15 ... it's... Yeah, exactly. And it's just tie- it's-

Speaker 1:22:17 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:17 ... your communication is tied to how your body feels.

Speaker 1:22:20 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:20 And so you have to... There are steps that you can use to regulate yourself so that does not happen.

Speaker 1:22:25 Mm. Yeah, I realized how detrimental that was in past relationships, was my, "I'm done."

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:31 "I'm so done."

Speaker 1:22:31 Yeah, I'm done.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:32 "I can't."

Speaker 1:22:33 We're done.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:34 It's like after-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:34 I literally cannot

Speaker 1:22:35 ... after 10 years of that, it's like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:36 Yeah

Speaker 1:22:37 ... please fuck. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:38 I don't believe you-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:39 Right

Speaker 1:22:39 ... anymore. Um, something I wanna just talk about and then I wanna talk more about the control, um-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:45 All right. Mm

Speaker 1:22:45 ... those, the three, was related to the first part where we were talking about that conversation between, like, a man and woman.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:52 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:22:52 And say she has something she wants to talk about, preparing him to get home.

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:22:55 I think something that's so important that you mentioned that I think is a game changer for relationships, and so I think women need to pay attention to do, is not, um, loading everything on. So it's like we're gonna talk about one thing.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:09 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:23:09 And, and you have to only talk about one thing.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:23:12 You can't... This is me talking to my previous self. You can't be like, "Okay, and then this feels good, and then I'm gonna talk about this thing and this thing and this thing." Like, focusing on the one thing is such an important aspect of communication in relationships.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:24 Yes. Um, I like to say if you're talking about everything, you're talking about nothing.

Speaker 1:23:28 So true.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:29 And, and put it e- even in a business context.

Speaker 1:23:31 Yeah. That's a good one.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:32 You, you, you have that meeting and your boss says, "All right, everybody, we got a lot to talk about," and you already know right away, you're rolling your eyes going, "This could've been an email." Uh, they have... When you're talking about too many things, nobody feels like it was a good, productive meeting. Same thing in the intimate conversation. When you're just lobbing issue after issue after issue, it's, uh, especially on the person, it's, one, it wears them down. Two, they're not going to retain a- any of it. It's just... It's much better to go very deep on one singular issue.

Speaker 1:24:01 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:01 The most important thing on that frame is telling them how you want to feel or how you wanna walk away. If it's, "I wanna walk away with this conversation with us having alignment or being on the same page-

Speaker 1:24:10 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:10 ... or just you hearing me out, not needing to fix it," any way that you can give them a heads-up of how you want to end. Because so many times we get in that conversation and you're going, at least from, let's say-

Speaker 1:24:21 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:21 ... in this scenario, the guy's perspective, what, what do you want? What's your point?

Speaker 1:24:25 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:25 And so what do I say? I start to jump in and go, "Oh, oh, so you want me to do this," and you go, "No, no, no, uh, no, that's not what, that's not it." You go, "Uh, okay," so I'm still listening.

Speaker 1:24:33 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:33 And then later on I go, "Oh, so you want me to do this," and you go, "No, no, no, no, you're not hearing me." I'm like, "I'm listening."

Speaker 1:24:38 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:38 And you go... It's because at that point in time you d- you truly don't know how to land the plane.

Speaker 1:24:42 Totally. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:43 You, you just-

Speaker 1:24:44 Same

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:44 ... you, you don't know.

Speaker 1:24:45 It's so crazy. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:46 [laughs]

Speaker 1:24:47 Sometimes it's like if you have, as a woman, you, like, have been in it all day, and then you finally have an audience, it's like you don't want it to go away. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:24:54 You're just like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:55 "I just need you to sit."

Speaker 1:24:56 Yeah. [laughs] It's like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:24:57 Yeah, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:24:58 You're like, "I'll just keep the microphones running, please." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:00 Ex- [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. "I just need you to, just need you to sit."

Speaker 1:25:03 Yeah. Actually, now that I see you're attuned to me, I just wanna rip. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:06 R- exactly. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but that's, that's what happens because you, you're trying to... You just get in and, and you wait until you're talking to figure out what you wanna say. And I...

Speaker 1:25:15 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:15 What you'll hear is the person go, "No, no, no, no, that, that's... Uh, no, no. W- wait, wait, wait, wait." And they start continuing to talk more and you're just thinking, "What's-

Speaker 1:25:22 I don't know

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:22 ... what's your point? What do you need from me?"

Speaker 1:25:24 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:24 And now, now you're going, "Oh, well, you don't even care. Like, you, you weren't even listening to me."

Speaker 1:25:28 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:28 So you're like, "What, what are you, what are you talking about?"

Speaker 1:25:30 What are the three power moves in conversations that really set you up for success in any conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 1:25:42 Number one is silence, just nothing. So if somebody were to say something that's snarky, the, the best move is to say nothing. You just kinda sit back, maybe you look around, maybe you look up, you look off I'm telling you, nine times out of 10, they can't take it

Speaker 1:26:00 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:00 They can't take that silence because then, then it's spread out. You've just exposed. Instead of you covering it up with something else that says, "Excuse me, did... What did you say?" You're just leaving it open.

Speaker 1:26:14 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:15 Kinda like, "That... Really was that the best foot you're gonna-

Speaker 1:26:18 Wow

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:18 ... put out right now?"

Speaker 1:26:19 God.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:19 "That one? You go- That the one you're, we're gonna choose?" And if you just let that silence sit there, oftentimes sh- and you s- probably heard this, they go, "I shouldn't have said that." You, you gotta give 'em that chance.

Speaker 1:26:33 That's number one.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:34 Yeah. Number one is you got, you gotta give 'em the chance of, of that silence. Number two, acknowledge that it could be, without acknowledging that it is. And you say-

Speaker 1:26:42 Give me an example

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:43 ... of saying, "Well, maybe so. Maybe you're right."

Speaker 1:26:48 Not say you're right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:49 No.

Speaker 1:26:49 But maybe you are.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:50 Maybe, maybe you're right. But it's that piece of humility that says, "Yep, well, maybe you're right."

Speaker 1:26:56 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26:57 Had a guy once who said, uh, I was deposing him and, you know, all these, "All you lawyers, worst thing that ever happened to America," kinda talk. And I said, "Well, maybe you're right. But today's just gonna be a conversation between us."

Speaker 1:27:11 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:12 "Is it okay if you're just talking to Jefferson?" And he said, "Yeah, I can do that."

Speaker 1:27:16 Wow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:17 And so it's that ability to just say, "Well, maybe so," but I could've, I could've gotten really defensive with him. I could've, I could've chosen to taken that personally instead, I just dropped it. Uh, the other power, other power move is to hold off on the timing. So when you are mad, that's generally not the best time to do it. When, like, when w- when you know you've done something wrong and you want somebody to be mad at you, they're like, "Fight me, please. Like, I know I've done something wrong. I... Let's, let's have this out." "We'll talk about this. Can you, uh, you, you wanna talk about this at noon?"

Speaker 1:27:54 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:54 "Let's talk about it."

Speaker 1:27:55 Let's, let's put it in the calendar for tomorrow.

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:56 You got it.

Speaker 1:27:57 Let's do it, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:27:58 Let's... Oh. Oh, well, I'm... Okay. And it's, well, I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that. Well, then, you know, I don't really have my thoughts together on that, but-

Speaker 1:28:06 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:07 ... why don't we calendar to talk about that at, at noon tomorrow? W- what do you think?" Now they're like, "Oh, my God."

Speaker 1:28:12 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:12 Like, "I just, I just said something that I shouldn't have said." [laughs] But that's, that's a much better way of, of, uh, of handling it because at, at that point, you have not lost any confidence.

Speaker 1:28:22 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:22 You have not lost your credibility. You just, you, you've maintained that you're the one in control at all times. And I'm telling you, the key is just starting with your breath-

Speaker 1:28:33 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:33 ... and choosing to be quiet.

Speaker 1:28:34 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:36 And if you were to, if you were to say something to me and I responded right away, like if you were to say, um, I don't know, "Do you, do you, um, do you enjoy matcha tea?" And I go, "No." Versus me thinking, "No." Like, there's just a different connotation to it-

Speaker 1:28:55 Sure

Jefferson Fisher 1:28:56 ... when you, when you think about it.

Speaker 1:28:56 Yeah. Um, about 14 years ago, um, someone gave me a, a line that became one of the most powerful uses of language over the last 14 years to help me get almost anything I want or more of what I already have. And I use it all the time. When I go, uh, order a coffee, I use it. When I go to a hotel and try to get an upgrade, I use it. When I'm working with, uh, partners and collaborators, I use it. And the line is, "What's the chance?" What's the chance you give me a discount on this? What's the chance you can give me an upgrade in this hotel room?

Jefferson Fisher 1:29:47 Yeah, love it.

Speaker 1:29:47 What's the chance you can get me in first class?

Jefferson Fisher 1:29:49 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:50 What's the chance we can collaborate in a bigger way?

Jefferson Fisher 1:29:52 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:53 What's the chance you can go a little more on this? And I've used that over and over again because it continues to work. And I almost use it as a game daily.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:04 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:04 Like any store I go into, I'm just like, "What's the chance we got 10% off on this?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:09 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:09 Just to see-

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:10 What they say

Speaker 1:30:10 ... if you can make something happen.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:12 'Cause if you don't ask, you're not gonna get it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:14 Right.

Speaker 1:30:15 And, um, it's just like a way to be playful. It's a way to, like, see can I enroll someone in something that I, maybe I shouldn't be getting-

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:22 I like that

Speaker 1:30:22 ... but I'm gonna get.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:23 Yes.

Speaker 1:30:24 And it often works, where the unexpected happens. Is there another line of communication that you use, maybe even unknowingly-

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:36 Yeah

Speaker 1:30:36 ... that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:43 So I do, I absolutely use the what's the chance.

Speaker 1:30:47 Really?

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:48 Yeah. So I'll, I will use that when it feels like a-

Speaker 1:30:51 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:52 ... like a stalemate between-

Speaker 1:30:53 Oh, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:30:53 ... the other attorney. And, "Now, look, what's the chance that your client's gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z?" Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client, same way I do with, like, the reception clerk versus the hotel. I, I, I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person, 'cause I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through.

Speaker 1:31:20 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:31:20 And so if I talk to the attorney of, "Look, I can only imagine, you know, all the updates sh- you're, you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I, I know that this is how, you're doing the best thing you can for your client. But, I mean, between me and you, what, what, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were... If I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do?" And it gives them a, something to think about.

Speaker 1:31:50 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:31:51 The same way like at a, let's say, at a hotel or something like that, "I, I can only imagine. You just been... How, how long's your shift?"

Speaker 1:31:57 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:31:57 Yeah. "7 hours? Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's gonna be..." And so you just, yeah, you kinda create that connection with them that says, "I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole," then, because that's who they are.

Speaker 1:32:09 Yeah, exactly. That's powerful.

Jefferson Fisher 1:32:11 If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there