EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 18,535 words- 0:00 – 1:01
Make small talk less painful with action-oriented questions
- JFJefferson Fisher
If there is one thing to unite this world, it is the hatred of small talk. It doesn't matter if it's a corporate company event or maybe a, just a weekend networking, it can be terrible. It can be downright scary at times. So how do you do it and how do you get better at it? Well, I got you. Today we're talking all about how to never struggle with small talk. Small talk, it's gross. So how are we gonna fix that? Let me give you some hints. Number one, instead of just asking, "How's work? How's home?" Those kind of questions just fall flat. They do nothing for you. They don't move the conversation at all. Instead, we're going to switch it to ask questions that are action-oriented. That means questions about the doing. So instead of how's work, how's home, how are you, you're gonna be asking questions like, "What did y'all do this weekend? What do you have coming up?" Getting things that they're excited about. "What are you excited about today or tomorrow or this week?" When you say, "What are you doing or going,"
- 1:01 – 2:32
Use open-ended prompts to avoid one-word dead ends
- JFJefferson Fisher
those are action-oriented things, and they're gonna help push the conversation forward. Number two, now what matters is how you do it. If you notice, I didn't say, um, "Do you have anything going on this weekend?" Because how are you gonna respond to that? You're gonna respond to that as either a yes or a no. That's it. When you ask questions typically that are did or, uh, "Did you have fun today? Did you have a good day?" When you ask your kid, when you pick them up from school, "Did you have a good day?" You're really only giving them a few options to say yes or no. When you ask questions that are closed, that's what they're called, close-ended questions, they only leave you hardly anywhere to go. It's just a yes or no question. "Did you go to the store?" Yes or no. Instead, you're gonna be opening it up with asking and beginning the phrase or question with what. What, you say, I always say, "What did y'all do this weekend?" Or did, instead of, "Did you have fun this weekend?" You hear the difference between, "What did you do for fun this weekend?" Versus, "Did you have fun this weekend?" One invites you to open up. The other closes it down and ends the discussion. So any time that you can, I want you to ask an open-ended question. You do that by beginning with what or how or when, because it gets them to continue to talk. That's what you're after. And also, number three, if you find that you just don't have that much to talk about,
- 2:32 – 3:32
Let conversations end naturally (and exit gracefully)
- JFJefferson Fisher
or it starts to go downhill, and you're finding that each of your responses are getting shorter and shorter, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. People feel like there has to be a certain amount of time for it to count as small talk. No. If, if you just say hello to the person and you engage maybe in one little back and forth, that's small talk. You've done it. Congratulations. There's no medal. There's no reward. There's nobody counting and timing you to see how long you've been talking. Just if the conversation comes to a natural end, then just say, "Hey, great to talk to you," and politely end the conversation. Don't feel like you have to keep pushing and pushing to have some green check flag to say, "I have accomplished small talk." It's a lot less than you think to make that happen. All right, now, on top of making sure your questions are action-oriented, asking about the going, the doing, what they're excited about, what's up ahead, what's, uh, going on in the future, on top of making sure that you're asking open-ended questions that are leaving lots of space and begin with, with what, how, and when
- 3:32 – 5:04
The “Topic + Options + Share” small-talk formula
- JFJefferson Fisher
and not did, that's gonna close things off. On top of that, there is a formula that I'm going to teach you real quick, and it has always worked for me, and I know it can work for you too. This is how it goes. Number one, you just pick a topic, any topic, to talk to this person about. So let's say it's as boring as the weather. You could say, "Man, this weather was crazy. This weather can't make up its mind today." They're gonna come up with something. They're gonna say, "Yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah, right? It's crazy." They're gonna acknowledge you in some way. Perfect. You have now set the stage for you to give options. I like to think of it as a poll, um, and... P-O-L-L, meaning you're going to say, for example, in, in this example, you can say, "So you, are you a fall person, are you a winter person? You like it hot or you, you like it cold?" Or maybe it can be summer or winter. "Are you, you a, you a fan of summer or do you like it cold?" Or, "Would you rather be too hot or too cold?" You're giving them options. That's the key, options. Because options give us something to talk about rather than just forcing it down one chute and hoping that it works. So if I were to say, you know, "Are you, do you like the beach in summer or are you more like you like the mountains and the, the snow?" They're gonna give you one. They're gonna give you one option. They're not gonna just leave you hanging. Or they might just say, "You know what? I really like spring. Spring's kind of my thing. It reminds me of blah, blah, blah." Well, then you get to interact and
- 5:04 – 7:05
Why sharing something personal unlocks better responses
- JFJefferson Fisher
say, "Well, I, I totally hear you. I, well, I happen to be a fall person because it makes me think of football and Thanksgiving and, uh, here in, in America, we have Thanksgiving in November, and so that's what I really like." And then you get to kinda interact with them and say, "Well, what, what about you?" And now you're getting to get to know them on just a little bit deeper level because here's, here's the trick on, on this formula, is why it works, for me at least, is that when you share something that is more personal about you, 99% of the time it then opens it up for the other person to share something a little bit more personal about them. Because they feel like, "Oh, well, you've shared something, and now I'm gonna share something." It's, it's very, um... It creates kind of this mutual contract that's hidden in a way, that if I share a little bit about me and what's personal to me and what I like, you're then gonna feel a little bit more comfortable sharing more personal things about you. And that's what you're curating in that experience. You can take it wherever you wanna go, but that's, that's the formula. It's that simple. Pick a topic, create options for them. Uh, maybe you create two options, at least two, maybe three or four, and then you share something as to which one is your favorite, and then ask someone about you. Even the question, "What about you?" continues to open things up in the dialogue and it, it never can really go wrong that way. I mean, they call this small talk, not big talk. It's just something short, compact that you left a, "Oh, okay, I, I learned a little bit more about this person." And it's something that you can knock out really in just an elevator ride. It's very quick, very easy. Let's say you're coming off, uh, into the elevator straight from some rain or whatever. You can easily just open it up talking about really the weather, the news, whatever you want. Try that. And because this episode is about small talk, I'm going to keep this episode small. So let's go, uh, ahead and get into my favorite part of the podcast, and that's where I get to read a question from a follower.
- 7:05 – 8:38
Listener question: Networking anxiety and “clamming up” at events
- JFJefferson Fisher
Those that are part of my newsletter are able to ask me questions, uh, by email, and I'm able to answer them. So if you're not part of the newsletter, you can sign up. The show notes are, um, are... The link for it is down there in the show notes. All right, this one I have picked one out. This is... Let me pull it up. This is Linda, and she lives in Lubbock, Texas. Linda from Lubbock. Think there's a country song in there somewhere. Uh, I went to law school in Lubbock, so I'm very familiar with it. Linda says, "Jefferson, I need some advice. Thank you so much for your clips." You're very welcome, Linda. "I am... Uh, I work at a..." Oh, no, I'm not gonna say where she works. "But I have networking events, and I tend to absolutely clam up where I stand in the corner and I'm not sure how to approach anyone or to get to a point where I feel comfortable talking to anyone. Do you have any advice?" Linda, I'm, I'm sorry you're having trouble with that, and it's, it's absolutely okay. Absolutely okay, because what makes you special is what makes you you. So just because y- you're not going around talking to every single person that is in the room, Linda, does not make you any less special or important or of less value. You find that people can talk a lot and say nothing at all. All right? So a lot of the times these networking events are really just more of a social dance in a way of just finding who's comfortable with who and who's friends and who's not. So I don't, I don't want you to overthink it, but I know that's
- 8:38 – 11:40
Body language that signals curiosity (and calms nerves)
- JFJefferson Fisher
not all that helpful. So Linda, I'm gonna s- say some things that... I'm gonna try to say some things that are. So when somebody is talking with you, one thing that you can do that I like to do is I will, um... It's... Well, it becomes s- subconscious, but if you wanna find that you're more engaged with people and get kinda curious with people, uh, physically, one thing that y- you can work on is I like to slowly ki- you just kind of cock your head a little bit to the side. That makes it look like you're much more interested in what they have to say rather than just like, "Oh, I just wanna talk to you." So it's, you don't wanna have crazy eyes. You don't wanna have it to where you feel like you're in front of their face. You're just kind of at a distance where your shoulders are relaxed, you feel relaxed. It helps me, uh, if you're holding something, especially these networking events, everybody kinda expects you to have something in your hand. It does not have to be a drink. It can be a snack. It could be any kind of refreshment that they have, but it, it keeps your hands busy. Linda, that's, that's why I'm saying it, because it, it keeps your hands from having to like fiddle with themselves or maybe you don't know what to do with them, so you kind of cross them. When you hold something, it keeps your stance open, and what I'm gonna encourage you to do on top of that is to just barely slide your head to the, the side. E- either side. It doesn't matter, the left or the right. But it, it, it gives this posture of wanting to kind of be curious, and when you smile and you're asking questions and they start to respond, if you can just move your head just a little bit to the side, it's gonna open them up as if, hey, you're being a little bit more curious about them to have more conversation. Another thing that's gonna help, Linda, is understanding that don't go into these events thinking you have to talk to every single person, like there's a win and a loss kind of thing. There's something to win and lose. That's not it. If you can just go in with the idea of just talking to one person, yeah, it's that basic. Just one person and having a good conversation with them. I would rather trade 20 little small talks that mean nothing at all versus one awesome conversation with somebody that I want to talk to every time. I'll trade that every single time. So when you're going t- into these types of, of scenarios, Linda, just, it's gonna help you if you already know who's gonna be there and you make sure that you go talk to that person. If it's a friend, awesome. That's great. The biggest thing is that people just see you around. They see that you're having a good time, but if you're closed off in a corner, even if you're talking to somebody and you just have, um, you, you have a closed-off posture, your arms are closed, your, your shoulders are hunched, and you're, you're kinda turned off to the group, they're gonna find that a little bit more... It's, it's gonna signal at least that you're not wanting to talk to anybody. And m- maybe you don't, but you asked the question, how, how can we, how can you get better at that? Keep a much more open stance and, and go in trying to think of just one or two people that you want to make eye contact with and conversation with. It doesn't mean you have to plan out these conversations ahead of time. You certainly can. And what I would encourage you to do is take some of the things that I said
- 11:40 – 13:41
Start strong, share back, and leave on a high note
- JFJefferson Fisher
at the beginning of this episode of asking, going up to somebody, say hi. I assume e- it doesn't matter if you know them or not, and you can ask them the question of, "What, what was something exciting happen in your week? What's, what's ha- um, what's exciting in your life right now?" See how, how... It's just one question right there. "What's exciting in your life right now?" Easy. And you let them talk, and then once they share it, you share something that's going on and exciting in your, in your life. You can't just ask a question and then expect not to have any kind of answer of your own. So it's that kind of that back and forth, that mutual contract that I talked about, uh, Linda, that's gonna make sure that you are keeping the ball rolling in the air. And it, it is much easier for you to end the conversation. This would be point three for you. If you feel that the conversation is starting to run low, get out fast. Say, "Hey, it's, it's been great to talk to you. I'm gonna go grab something to, to eat or drink." Whatever it is. "I'm gonna run to go see..." Whatever. It doesn't matter. It... The biggest thing is if you can end the conversation on a high note, rather than forcing each other to talk when you really d- are kind of done talking to each other, and then leave the conversation, well, now you kind of drained each other. So if you can, try to leave the conversation on a high note. So if they responded to your, "What's, you know, most exciting in your world today?" And they give you an awesome answer, you say, "Oh, that's fabulous." Ask maybe another question about it. Go, "Oh, that's fantastic." And if they don't ask anything of you, typically they should. I mean, that's, they should. But if they don't, that's cool. We just say, "Wow, that's awesome. Well, I'm, I'm super proud of you. That sounds really exciting. It was great to talk with you." And then you leave, and now you've left on a high note. Now, Linda, you've made a good impression because all you did was talk about them, and they're gonna, they're really gonna like that. So, uh, Linda, those are just some quick takeaways, but at the end of the day, you just do what makes you special. All right? You, you do what makes you you, and if it makes you uncomfortable, don't do
- 13:41 – 16:44
How to avoid unwanted conversations (politics, gossip, hot topics)
- JFJefferson Fisher
it. You stick with what feels good in, in your lane and, uh, what resonates and feels right to you. You don't like them, and you definitely don't want them, but sometimes no matter what you say, you find yourself getting sucked into them anyway. But with what I'm about to show you today, you're gonna handle them like a pro. Today's episode is all about how to handle unwanted conversations. If you want to avoid an unwanted conversation, number one, don't fight them because the more that you do, the more you're gonna find yourself in one. Instead, just let it go by. You do that by making yourself sound, well, disinteresting. This is what I mean. When somebody's pushing an opinion onto you, any controversial topic, whether it's religion, politics, whatever, they're trying to push something onto you, and you say, "Yeah, I don't know." Simple as that. "Yeah, I don't know," or, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure about that." You're finding ways to communicate to them of, "If you're looking for a fight, you're not gonna find one here." Number two, this one is the easiest, but it's the most critical. You are making them feel heard. It's just simply acknowledging their point, and it's very simple to do. This is what it sounds like: "I agree that's an issue." Period. Somebody's wanting to get all worked up, and they're telling something to you, all you need to respond is, "Yeah, I, I agree that's an issue. I agree that's an issue." You're not saying whether you agree with it or disagree with it. If anything, they just feel acknowledged and heard, and g- they say to themselves, "Oh, okay. They understood and heard what I said." And number three, if you need to be a little bit more direct, you need to tell them that you're not interested in this conversation. If they're not getting the point, here's the way I suggest to do that. You say, "I typically avoid this topic." The key word is typically. "Yeah, I typically avoid this topic," or, "I typically, uh, try not to talk about X, Y, and Z." The key here is when you say typically, you're communicating of, "I've had this conversation before. It's not really stimulating to me anymore, so I just, um, avoid this topic altogether." You're not saying that they're wrong. You're not giving them a fight. You're not giving them anything for them to bare their teeth on. You're just sim- simply saying, "I tend to avoid this. I typically don't do this." And I'm gonna give you a disclaimer on this episode, particularly when it comes to political topics. I'm all in favor of educating yourself and making sure that you know about the issues out there. I think you should absolutely ex- exercise your right to vote, no questions asked. That's a different question on whether or not somebody is allowed to force their opinion onto you and say whether they're right or wrong, or if you're supposed to push your opinion back and always have these discussions where you know it's just beating your head against a wall. If this person is open-minded and it's a discussion that you enjoy having, and people have political discussions all the time, and there's no issues. But other people, it's not so much about change. They don't care about the change. They care about the competition. It's like a sport to them. It's like arguing over their favorite sports
- 16:44 – 20:16
When they keep pushing: escalate boundaries and exit cleanly
- JFJefferson Fisher
team. Who's going to win? Who's going to lose? Day to day, w- the ultimate consequence of the discussion of who wins makes no bearing, no change on their life. It's just something that they feel like a team on, so they wanna have this discussion, uh, of intellect to intellect or just issue to issue, and they just wanna talk it out. All kinds of different reasons why these kind of topics should or may come up in your life. The key is how do you balance them? The reason why I have number one be to pass it by is because it's that idea of don't attend every argument you're invited to. Just because somebody pushes their opinion onto you to talk about any controversial topic does not mean that it's an invitation for you to mandatorily give your opinion right back. Whenever you decide, "You know what? I wanna push against you. Actually, I don't agree with that," you can disagree all you want. Just know you're walking right into the conversation. It's no longer an unwanted conversation. It is a desired conversation now that you're giving your opinion. If you want to avoid these, then you need to just let them pass by. I say disinterested or be disinteresting because in many ways you're taking all the oxygen out of the room, and their fire can't burn. They have nothing to get upset about because you're not giving them anything to jump onto. You're finding ways to say, "You know what? I don't know about that. You know what? Ah, that's a good question. I'm really not sure. I'm not sure." It's not that you're... That you don't have your own opinion. It's not that you're uneducated, it's just you're not in a mood to say, "I don't wanna get in this conversation right now." And there's nothing wrong with that. When it comes to agreeing with them, understand nobody can make you agree to something you don't want to agree to. Nobody can force you to say something you don't want to say. But it's critical that these kind of people, when they're pushing these unwanted conversations, just feel heard. Often, if they just feel acknowledged in some way, they're going to go away. Not only have you made yourself disinteresting, they know they're not gonna get anywhere with this, they know that you're not gonna give them that fight and that excitement that they're looking for. They just want to feel acknowledged. So when you can say things like we mentioned in number two of, "I agree, that's an issue. I hear you." Simple as that. "I hear you. I agree, that's an issue. I agree." That's all you have to say. Even if you disagree with them, you're just making them feel heard. But if they continue to push and press, uh, on you to make you feel uncomfortable in some certain way, don't hesitate for one second to say, "I prefer," or, "I typically." You're talking about what you do in the past. "I prefer not to talk about X, Y, and Z. Uh, I typically try to avoid topics about blah blah blah." You can make it even situational. Uh, "I, I typically avoid topic X at dinner," or at home, or at work. You make it situational where you are in your environment. Simple as that. And if they continue to press the button, it's absolutely okay to say, "I'm not going there," period. "I'm not going there." You're saying, "I'm not going into this conversation. I've given you plenty of lead-ups, I've given you signs that I'm not interested in this. That, that means I have to be explicit with you. I'm not interested in this conversation. I typically don't enjoy talking about topics of X, Y, and Z. This subject matter isn't for me. That subject isn't for me." You
- 20:16 – 26:07
Listener question: A boss who pushes gossip/politics—what’s the real issue?
- JFJefferson Fisher
find ways to, if they're not gonna be taking the signs, be very direct with them to say, "I have a boundary here. I'm not gonna be goaded into this. I'm not gonna be led into this conversation. I'm not going there." Now we're at the part that's one of my favorite parts, and that is I'm going to answer a question from a follower. If you're not already part of my weekly newsletter, I send one email once a week right to your inbox on a communication tip, and those that are on the newsletter can email me questions and I'm able to answer it here on the podcast. So I have my, my other phone here, and this one that I picked is from Sammy. Sammy is in Florida. He says, "Hey Jefferson, uh, love your tips. I have an issue with work. There is a boss that I have who always likes to talk about whether it's gossip or politics. Whatever it is, he's always wanting my input on it and I'd rather not give it. It's not that I don't have an opinions, I'm just not that much of a social person and it makes me uncomfortable. Love to hear your thoughts on this." Sammy, I feel you, man. So any time... Let me give you a, an example of what's this making me think of in, in my own mind, my own, my own world, is I'd have these conversations with my grandfather. I'd go up every summer to see him, and it never failed. And this happened definitely in the last five, 10 years or so, where I'd start to come talk to him, and every time he'd turn the conversation to politics or some issue that I did not want to talk about. It's not that he... I mean, he and I agreed on some things. We also disagreed on some things, but that's all he ever wanted to talk about. It just kinda consumed his mindset. This is what I'm gonna encourage you to do, Sammy. Often the issue that you hear is not the real issue. All right? It's not the political issue that they wanna talk about, or that, um, let's say maybe he's oversharing or there's gossip, there's something else. It's not that. It's an underlying layer. Continue on with my grandfather example. My grandfather was the ty- is the type that, you know, he doesn't see a whole lot of people day to day, and so whenever I'm coming around and I'm giving him my full attention, I might be the first person he's really been able to talk to that day, and he wants to get out everything that's on his mind. There's also that element of he kind of wants to... You know, there's people out there who want to feel impressive with their knowledge, regardless of what side of the fence anything is on. It doesn't mean it's political, not political, or religious, or any other controversial topic. They just want to share that they're knowledgeable about a given topic. So I'll... I'm going to encourage you to look behind the issue. Why does he continue to come to you with this, this boss or manager, Sammy? Why does he continue to come to you with this? Is it that he's just looking for other conversation with you? Maybe it's he just wants to have some kind of interaction with somebody, especially if it varies. If it's always the same issue every single time, that's a little bit different. But if he always comes to you with something different, that might be a suggestion that, well, he's just wanting to interact with somebody. Like we talked about at the beginning of this episode, some people it's not about who's right, who's wrong, it's just the competition. It's like a, it's a hobby for some people to find out, "Hey, can we just kind of feel alive for a second if we get up and angry about things even though nothing in our world's going to change?" So when that happens and you feel like you need to set some boundaries in this discussion, I would, number one, I would encourage you to continue to indicate to him that you're not going to give him any kind of fight. You're not gonna be on his side or against his side. You're just gonna be disinterested. You're gonna be disinteresting by saying things like, "You know, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure about that," or, "Man, if I had an opinion, I'd give one. Simple as that. I don't know enough about it." Or it's, "Hey, I agree this is an issue. Yeah, I agree, that's- that's definitely an issue." You're simply just acknowledging something that they said. Or if you need to be really, really, um, clear that this is not something you're interested in and you don't like this, it's okay to say, "I'd prefer not to to discuss this kind of stuff at work." Simple as that. You have to do things that sound authentic and genuine to you. What you can't do is start to engage. If you start to engage or you- you begin to just ing- agree and be a yes-man, uh, to everything and go, "Yep, you're exactly right. You're exactly right," then he's gonna continue to come to you with things. But if you continually show that you're not gonna be that much fun, you're not gonna be his person, or you just find that these aren't the kind of topics that he's gonna get with somewhere, if you were able to say, you know, "I'd rather talk about you," that was the key of how I kind of had to fix my grandfather and our conversations. I had to tell him anytime he got into this rut, this continuous repeat of a hamster wheel conversation, I'd say, "You know, I'd- I'd much rather hear about you." That was it. "I'd- I'd rather hear about how you're doing." Nobody gets mad, Sammy. Nobody gets upset if you want to move the conversation about them. [laughs] Nobody's like, "Oh, h- no, I don't want to talk about that." Everybody likes to talk about themselves. So when you just kindly say, genuinely say, "I'd rather hear about you. How's everything going? Work good? How's- how's everything?" It shifts the mindset, and they're not gonna be like, "Oh, you- you changed the topic." Everybody likes talking about themselves, uh, especially if it's genuine, this s- this social connection that you're creating. So that's the way I'd handle that, Sammy. Best of luck.
- 26:07 – 29:31
Mastering small talk: goals, story prompts, and future-focused questions (interview)
- SPSpeaker
What about, um, the subject of small talk? Which we all... I mean, I think most people hate small talk. I especially-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... don't like small talk, but many people hate small talk.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You're right.
- SPSpeaker
Is there, is there a skill at all to being a real master of small talk, in your view?
- JFJefferson Fisher
One would be don't ask questions that elicit a one-word response. These are what they call closed-ended questions. You want these for a cross-examination 'cause on cross-examination, I just want yes or no questions. "Did you go to the store?" "Yes." "No." I want you on open end... Um, when I'm on direct examination, I wanna open you up to discussion, want you to talk more. So what you do is you take advantage of asking questions that open you up. Ask open-ended questions. These are questions that begin with how or what or when or where. Instead of, uh, like, "Did you go to the store?" The same effect would be, "Did you have a good weekend?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm only limiting you to a yes or a no.
- SPSpeaker
You talk about these conversational goals.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Having a conversational goal in your small talk. You talk about that on page, I think, 40, 45, and 46 of, of this book.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So as a conversational goal, I'm a podcaster. I know I'm meeting you today, so I walk in here with a goal in mind that when I start speaking to you, I'm trying to get somewhere.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Is that, is that what you mean by conversational goal?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, there's two separate sides. You wanna have a conversational goal really for any conversation that you're going to have. Now, that's different if, like, you're in your hoodie and sweatpants with your friend watching a movie. Like, you don't have to have a conversational goal. Saying if y- you're on one-on-one with somebody at work, it's not a bad idea if you go into their office, you have a goal for where's the conversation going to end. Because otherwise, it spins anxiety in the other person. Like, if somebody texts you and says, "We need to talk," period, you're like... I, I automatically think it's the worst. I- it's like, oh, something's terrible. They... We're, we're, uh, we're breaking up. Something's terrible. Something's on fire. It's the worst. 'Cause it's that anxiety, that, that trigger of the unknown. So instead, you always wanna have a conversational goal, like the frame we talked about. You're telling them how you want the conversation to end. Same kind of thing with small talk, but when it's much easier when you set a goal that's very low. Like, instead of saying, "I want them to be so impressed with me they don't know what to do," what's more impressive is when you're curious about the other person. "I wanna make sure that I ask at least three questions of this person and see what they have to say." That's a great goal. "I wanna make sure that my goal is understanding where they're coming from just a little bit more." So with small talk, people love to tell them how they got there. People love to talk about themselves. Everybody knows that. One question to ask is how they got to the present moment. For example, "How did you, how did you learn that? Where did you come across this?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"Yeah, how did you, how'd you get in where you are today?" And people are like, "Oh, well, let me kinda talk about myself for a minute."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And people love it because they get to tell a story. Very different if I just said, "Hey, what'd you do this weekend?" "It, uh, it was good. We just, you know, stayed home." That's not... There's no story element to that. There's nothing you can do with that.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
But if you get them to talk about a story of what led them to their present moment, much better. Another tip is you get to talk to them about things that are happening in the future rather than looking at the past. The past is really not that great for people because they feel like it's boring. They f- don't feel like the past is something as that remarkable. But they typically find things that they will look forward to in the conversation. "What are you looking forward to doing this weekend? What are you excited about? What's coming up for you?" They'll find things to go kind of like, "Oh,
- 29:31 – 34:05
Handling conversation dominators: interrupt, summarize, and pass the mic
- JFJefferson Fisher
well, I'm kind of excited about this, why, and z." But if you ask about what's happened in the past, they kind of have this like, "Ah, you know, it just... It's in the past. I didn't really do anything." Now, we all know people that no matter the conversation, they always find a way to talk about themselves. And even if it's not about themselves, it's always seems to be their voice that takes up the entire conversation. On today's episode, we're discussing how to handle people who dominate conversations. When it comes to somebody dominating a conversation, and not in the good way, as in they're not letting anybody else speak, they're the ones always having to hear their own voice, there are some things I need you to do. Number one, interrupt them. You interrupt that person. Now, I know it doesn't sound like me to suggest that, but it's true. Because if they're not going to respect your time, then you have to do it, and there's a particular way I want you to do that. You interrupt them by using their name. You start low, and then you go higher because people listen to their name. Their name gets their attention. It's the best word they can ever hear is their name. So if I were to hear you and I... Or somebody was listening to me and I just said, "Hey, Jefferson. Jefferson" Jefferson, you say it as often and as loud as you need to because it will eventually make them stop. Number two, when they do stop, I want you to filter and pass it. Here's what I mean. Filter as in you're going to summarize what they just said very quickly, and then pass it to somebody else to say, "Hey, I totally hear you. I understand what you're just saying. I'm curious to hear what Bob has to say or what Susie has to say," or you turn it on yourself, "My thoughts are..." And number three, if they're still dominating the conversation, then you gotta put a time limit on it. You have to find a way to get out of there because you're not reaching them. So it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I've got about five more minutes and then I need to get going. I need to do other things." But time limit is the only way to make sure that... They're just gonna continue to talk as long as they have an audience. And at the end of it, you just have to understand when somebody's dominating the conversation, it's not a, it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. It's a monologue, and you didn't buy a ticket to hear it. So if they're not going to respect the way conversations should happen, it's time that you respect yourself. And most of the time, these kind of scenarios happen in meetings. Zoom meeting, in-person meeting, it doesn't matter. Where I see it most is in Zoom meetings because, uh, now after COVID with everything, a lot of the legal world has moved to Zoom where everything is virtual, and I'm sure that's the same way in your world. But what typically happens is that there is, let's say, a dozen people, 10 people, eight people on the Zoom, and before you know it, it's just one person talking the entire time. It's one person who always has an opinion. It's one person who always has to feel like they're contributing to the conversation way more than their share, and they think truly inside themselves, they just don't have the emotional intelligence to realize that people aren't really... They're kinda getting tired of you talking the entire time. That filter isn't there for them, so they just, they keep talking the entire time. And in meetings especially, you have to make sure that person doesn't do that because it'll just kill your meeting. It, it'll, it'll ruin it. It will, it will reduce productivity. It will get people aggravated. You know that feeling where all of a sudden they're, they need to comment again, and everybody kinda lets out a sigh like, "Great. This person again. Oh, geez. I wish we could just go..." It, it, it'll absolutely ruin your, your meeting and the productivity and where you wanna go. So when that kinda thing happens, you have to step out in front of it the first time. If you just let them drone on because you're afraid to offend them, you're afraid to, uh, come out in front and feel like that's being too direct, then you just have to be okay with a bad meeting because it's, it's not going to happen. Also, understand that when people are dominating the conversation, it's often a sense of insecurity. Like most things, we feel that the more we talk, the more intelligent we are, the more people will see how smart we are, how much we're trying to contribute. But often, what I find in meetings is the person who speaks the most is typically the one that knows the least. It's the person who's the least out of touch, so they have to overcompensate and feel like everybody around them can have some kind of faith in them, so they, they talk a whole lot. But often, the more you say, it just shows the less that you know. So you're gonna be careful about that in your next meeting. But here's the takeaway. When somebody's dominating and trying to control the conversation,
- 34:05 – 42:12
How to interrupt without offending (and why you shouldn’t apologize)
- JFJefferson Fisher
you have to step out in front of it quickly because if you don't, it can, it can go south in a hurry. And I hear some of you already going, "Jefferson, I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting this person. I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting them. They're gonna get upset if I interrupt them." No, they're not. They're gonna wanna stop and listen. Maybe they might be a little bit frustrated, but your purpose is true, and here's how I'm going to help you with that. When you need to interrupt somebody, there's a difference between me just starting to share my thought. Let's say, for example, you're talking to me, telling me a story, and I've heard this story a million times. There's a difference between me cutting in and going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we, we all know. We all know, okay?" And then just ignoring you and continue to go on with my thought. That's gonna upset you, right? That's gonna make you feel like, "Oh, they just, they just interrupted me. They just cut me off." But if I were to use your name and say, "Jefferson, I need to interrupt you," all of a sudden it doesn't feel like an interruption because I told you what it is. I told you that I'm interrupting you, and I know we've discussed this before on the podcast on how to handle interruptions, but it's the same, same true for people who dominate conversations. If I tell you that I'm interrupting you, if I say, "I know I'm interrupting," or, "I need to interrupt you," nobody takes offense to it because here you're acknowledging what you're doing. It's, it's the acknowledgement of the formality. Say, "Yes, I understand. Typically, I should not be interrupting. I should be hearing you out." And in this case, you have to because they're not respecting the formality of I say something, then you say something. I say something, you say something. It's, it's just all about them. So if you took... think about it in a pie chart, there's these people who control the conversation to hear their own voice a lot of ways, and they're totally fine with taking up 98% of the pie and leaving 2% to you, really for that 2% to tell them how great they are or how smart they are. We're not gonna be doing that. Here, it's as simple as using their name because it's going to get their attention. They're gonna perk up to that, to when you say, "Hey, Jefferson." They're... It's gonna automatically turn, turn to you. They're gonna look at you, especially the more you raise your voice in that way, but you're gonna do it kind. You're not gonna do it in a way that is rough or rude or just exasperated. That's gonna, that's gonna make it go further south. Here, you are pulling them back in, in a way, nudging them back in to how a conversation is supposed to go, es- especially one that you're going to be involved in. Because understand, what you're doing here is also informing them, "Hey, if you wanna have a conversation with me, this is how this is gonna go. I'm gonna say something. You're gonna say something, and we're gonna acknowledge each other points. I'm not here... I didn't buy a ticket to listen to the show where I just sit, and you get to say everything, and I have to be quiet." That's not it. Here, you are showing them your manual. "If, if you wanna communicate with me, this is how you're going to do it." So when you use their name, it gets their attention, and it's easy way, if you feel like you're being too direct, to tell them I need to interrupt you. Mind... This is a big key. This is a big key point of this, mind you. Do not apologize. Ah. Look at me. Listen to me. Don't apologize. Don't say, "I, I'm so, I'm so sorry to interrupt you." You are not sorry for it. You are not sorry for it. Here, you need to do it. It is them that has put you in this position, so you're not gonna apologize for having a boundary. You're not gonna apologize for needing to take a stance and say, "This, this can't continue." Cool? So you're not gonna say, "I'm sorry." It is, "I need to interrupt you." Uh, that is as simple as that, or, "I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting you." Both of those will even allow them to go, "Okay, I'm listening." It'll totally turn it to you, and they're not gonna take offense to it because you're acknowledging it in the moment. And one point I want to make very clear is that once you interrupt them and filter and pass it, part of that is the acknowledgement. It is key that when you need to take the conversation away from somebody who is dominating and monopolizing the conversation, you acknowledge what they have said. Summarize it very briefly, even if just one sentence, because it, it... Otherwise, they're going to feel totally shut down and dismissed, and it's going to lead to negative things. I don't want that for you. You can simply cure that b- by summarizing what they just said. For example, let's assume that, um, you are talking to me on a given topic, and I interrupt you. Let's say your name's Jefferson. Weird name. Such a lame name. [laughs] And I need to interrupt you, and I just go, "Hey, hey Jefferson, Jefferson." And then all of a sudden I just start, cut off my thought and I go, "Hey, hey Jefferson, I, I wanna hear what Lauren has to say about this." You s- Hear how all of a sudden I just felt... You, you feel cut off from me? If I were to say, "Hey Jefferson, yeah, I wanna, yeah, I, I wanna hear what Greg has to say," you're gonna feel cut off immediately. Instead, if I said, "Hey Jefferson, I hear you. I, I agree that this point and that point and that point," or, "I, I hear you that this is something that is frustrating you. I don't disagree. I'd like to hear what so and so has to say, um, on this point." Here I just, I f- I summarize it. I say, "Thank you for what you've shared." Again, I'm distilling it to the important point, and then I pass it to somebody else, or you can pass it to yourself easily. It's just as simple as, as saying, "Hey, hey Jefferson, I, I hear your point. I, I'm not saying I agree with it. My thought here is blah, blah, blah." I- you're just taking it because you've acknowledged what they've said, and then now you're passing it on to the next one because they're not sharing the ball, right? They're, they're hogging the ball the, the entire time. So it's on you to kinda kindly take it from their hands and pass it on to continue playing the game. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen. I also wanna make sure and add a disclaimer in here that people who monopolize conversations and, and dominate them, it's not necessarily on purpose. It goes back to what I originally said is it's an insecurity. Bottom line, it's an insecurity type thing that they don't realize how much they're talking. I find in my world that it is people who get older in life that don't realize how much they're talking. It is also the plain sense of let's just, let's, let's approach that situation, that situation with some grace in that you may be the only person they've spoken to. You, you might be... If it's somebody who's, um, older, and they haven't seen anybody today, and you're now the one that's gonna be talking to them, they might have a week's worth of information, of stories and things that they just want to share because in that moment they have a reason for feeling like they're alive and valuable and important and, and you're gonna be the one, the, the focus in that. If that's the kinda situation, then you just need to be patient. It's that moment where instead of going, "Oh, this is such a waste of time," being reflective and saying, "I need to slow down a little bit. What, what's here for me?" So understand there's always two sides of the same coin, especially for even people that are neurodivergent and they have ADHD. Maybe, um, they have other kinds of, um, issues that make it difficult in the way their brain functions to not stop talking, and that's, that's nothing... That does not mean that it's a weakness. It just means it's something to learn and to deal with, uh, and differently, and that, that's my whole point of this episode is not that people who dominate conversations are evil and terrible. It is simply that it happens naturally with everybody, including yourself, and that just means it's, it's something to handle and react to and respond to in
- 42:12 – 1:32:20
Standing up for yourself: choose battles, drop disclaimers, stop justifying “no”
- JFJefferson Fisher
a very productive and efficient way. Here's a hard truth. If you don't advocate for yourself, nobody will, and if you don't assert your needs, let's face it, you will get walked over every single time. At the end of today's episode, you're not going to have to worry about it. We're talking how to stand up for yourself. The first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because number one, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It is a know your worth mentality, and we're gonna talk exactly where you need to go in your mind leading up to these conversations. Number two, get rid of the verbal disclaimers. These are little statements you say before you say what you need to say like, "Hey, I'm, I'm sorry, but I, I, I just feel like maybe..." We're gonna talk about getting rid of those and how to do it. Number three, stop justifying the no's. Stop having to feel like you need to explain yourself on and on just because you turned somebody down. When you do that, it takes away slowly from your self-confidence, and I don't want to see that. Now, maybe nobody's told you this, but just because somebody has said something does not mean that it requires a response from you. Just because they threw a pitch doesn't mean you have to swing. You can just let it go by. There's this idea in our head that because somebody gave us an opinion, we have to give an opinion back. That's just not true. When it comes to standing up for yourself, it is often the person that is not worth your time that you don't need to give attention to, and often that's the exact opposite of what we do. We find ourselves trying to justify and explain to people that do not matter in our life, the people that l- that rank low in our priority list, but yet we, we feel like we have to prove something to them every single time that we talk. Eliminate that concern. When people play chess, it's expected that you're gonna take a pawn. Nobody freaks out about it. Nobody loses their mind when somebody takes a pawn because they know the value is not the pawn. They can take a rook. Okay. They want to take a queen. That's different. Understand that there's gonna be lots of different conflicts in your, in your life, lots of different conversations. They are not all the same. The, the feeling you get by talking with certain people, those friendships, uh, where they rank in relationship to you, they're not all the same. So what I want you to understand is stop attending every argument that you're invited to. Just because somebody gave an opinion and said something to you, you have the choice of just letting it go, saying, "That does not re- require any response from me. That is not worth my time." That's why I say it's a know your worth mentality. Before you stand up for yourself and feel like you have to say something, ask the question, "Is this person worth getting out of my chair for? Is this somebody that actually needs part of my energy?" Because there is a strength and a wisdom in conserving your energy and protecting your peace. So the next time that happens, I want you to go through that filter and ask yourself, "Is this person worth getting out of my chair for?" Because I, I know my worth. And please understand that goes for anything that they say. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean we're in the business of picking up trash. Let me say that again. Just because they spew out garbage does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. You can politely tell them where it should go, and it's not gonna be on you. So understand that part of protecting your peace is understanding, "I know what they're saying is not worth my time. I'm gonna take it and set it aside." Personally, what I do in my, my own life is I have a wastebasket. All right? I have a trash, um, bag right next to me in my mind, and if somebody says something I don't like, rather than me feeling like I have to throw it back to them and I have to pick up that trash, that gross, nasty thing that they said and give it right back to them, I just take it and I move it over and put it in the trash. You can say like, uh, at a computer or a laptop. You just get it, you drag it over, and you put it in, in the recycling bin, and then you delete it. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to carry it. So understand, just because they throw out garbage at you does not mean that you're in the business of picking up trash. When you have to advocate for yourself, part of that mindset is knowing how to go into it. Too often, there is a hesitancy to say what you need to say. We treat it like it's a, I don't know, what do they have? Like, the cold plunge or, uh, a, a pool that's filled with cold water. If you tiptoe into it, it's much worse. When you don't say what you need to say right out of the gate and instead you slowly walk into it with these little disclaimers, what I call them. This sounds like, "Hey, um, you know, I've just been... I, I, I just feel like I need to, uh, say this, I guess. It's... And maybe I'm talking out of pocket here, but..." You ever heard that? You ever said that before, where you say, "Uh, yeah, I mean, listen, I'm, I'm sorry, but, but maybe, you know, I, I, I'm just feeling more like..." You're trying to hesitate saying what you need to say. Like, you want to smooth it over. You want to hedge to make sure nobody feels like you're being too direct with it. But when it comes to asserting yourself, when it comes to stating your needs, nobody's gonna do it for you. Remember, you're the one that has to be bold and out in the open with it. So, uh, think of it as that cold swimming pool. If you walk right into it, it's going to not feel great. It's not going to look smooth. It's not going to feel smooth. You either have two choices. You don't say it at all, or you jump right in. When you see people doing that cold plunge, they don't walk right into it. They don't slowly go into it. They put their whole body into it. So I want you to get used to that idea of I'm gonna put my whole body into this thing. If I have something to say, I'm going to say it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to apologize for it. I'm not gonna feel like I have to be hesitant and hedge the whole time. If it is something that is on your heart and it is something that is truly asserting your needs in your life, you have one chance, one life, and this is it right here, for you to be able to state your peace, assert your needs, and say what you need to say. Now, another part of this is often when it comes to standing up for yourself, it happens in moments where you need to say no to something. You need to turn something down. Maybe somebody's invited you to something, you got offered something, and you need to say no, but you don't know how to say it, and you're just not sure you can advocate that you need to say no. Now, we're gonna talk later in this... ... podcast about how to say no to certain things, how to decline something and still be respectful, uh, how to disagree and still be respectful about it in those little bitty specific scenarios. Here, this is the point I'm making, of that there are times when you have to say something and they need to hear you say no. And there's a difference between saying, "No, because," after the end of it, using that word because to justify it, and just saying no. For example, let's say you ask me a question and I just said, "No. No," versus, "No, uh, because, you know, I have that thing that we talked about and, you know, I, I gotta make sure that I take care of this, and it's just been really busy lately and I've just been so stressed, you know? And so, well, I have that other thing, you know?" You see how it's much weaker? All of a sudden I- I've added three more sentences after the no, and I've slowly watered down the place that I need to assert my needs. If I need to say no to something, I need to say no. So eliminate that habit of always saying, "No, because." It's just no, and if they need to ask other questions, they're free to ask other questions, and you're free to say no again. I want you to feel empowered, right, on this idea of just because they asked me something does not mean I have to give them something. Just because they told me something does not mean I have to have an answer for something. Standing up for yourself means that you are in complete peace with who you are and your presence in the conversation, and you know your worth wherever you are in that conversation, or if there should be a conversation at all. So when you need to say no to something, step into that. Don't go with these little verbal disclaimers. You say no to it. You don't say because and add on a verbal, um, it's like the opposite of a verbal disclaimer. You add in everything afterwards. "No, because I'm just feeling X, Y, and Z." You don't need that. The word is no, period. What lots of people like to say and what I support is no is a complete sentence.
- SPSpeaker
How do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should?
- JFJefferson Fisher
The biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. There's a lot of people that you, if you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are gonna get tired. Like, you just, some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
There are some people that if you really feel like a- an injustice, like for me, a driving principle is justice. If I feel like something is unjust-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... I'm much more, um, I guess it's unjust f- then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, "No, no, this is not, this isn't cool. That's not fair."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"This isn't equal. That you don't talk, you don't treat people that way." But if you, if you're the, the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... nearly as much. It's, it's the walk quietly with a, a big stick-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... kind of mentality. I mean, when, when you wanna stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I, I can, I can choose to say nothing, and a lot of the times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're gonna say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang, oh, it's, it's one of the most powerful things you can do-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and then they just don't do it as much.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You sh- you're telling them it's not gonna be fun for you if you go down this road with me.
- SPSpeaker
Interesting. Where did you learn that?
- JFJefferson Fisher
A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book I talk about my, I'm the oldest of four.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm a fifth generation trial attorney, so I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood where... a g- a wonderful childhood where I'd get pick up from school, like get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of four, had a lot of experience just resolving conflict, uh, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister, and then my two younger brothers. And then a lot of it is, um, you'd think it was law school, but it's not.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You have trials, but it's, trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's, let's say you're my witness, and let's say you're opposing, you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's gonna be ready to jump in and object to every question I have.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You have a judge that's gonna rule on the evidence of if my question passes. You have a bailiff, court reporter, and then there's probably 12 people, if we're in district court in the state of Texas, that are going to all be listening to everything that I do, and it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're gonna think, "Oh, that's bad for his case." If I, if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad like, "Oh, that's not true," they're gonna know, oh, this is actually bad for his case.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
Episode duration: 1:32:21
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Transcript of episode Y-WLP_NnD3I
