The Jefferson Fisher PodcastHow To Outgrow The Version Of Yourself That's Holding You Back ft. Hunter Hayes
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:22
Outgrowing your current self and balancing the “what if” mindset
Jefferson opens by asking what to say to someone who senses they’ve outgrown their current identity. Hunter answers with a simple principle: growth is always available, and fear-based “what if” thinking should be counterbalanced with equally vivid positive possibilities.
- •You always have the opportunity to outgrow who you are now
- •Don’t talk yourself out of your future—take the opportunity
- •If you list what could go wrong, also list what could go right
- •Give hope and possibility equal weight to fear
- •Choosing growth often starts with a single decision
- 0:22 – 1:32
“Who’s at your table?” Choosing your inner circle as life changes
Jefferson introduces his metaphor of a personal “table” with chairs that get refilled across life stages. The conversation frames personal development as intentionally selecting who has influence, input, and access to your thinking.
- •Your ‘table’ changes from childhood to your 20s, 30s, and beyond
- •Being selective about who gets a seat protects your mindset
- •Major transitions often require rebuilding your support system
- •Clarity comes from recognizing who truly helps you grow
- •Community isn’t automatic—you curate it
- 1:32 – 2:52
Letting go of the institution: the scary shift when things start falling away
Hunter describes a season where big changes happened—some by choice, some as if “the universe did it.” He explains how creative careers involve many moving pieces, and sometimes growth requires releasing parts of the machine you’re afraid to lose.
- •Leaving familiar systems can feel like abandoning an institution
- •An artist is the ‘hub’ of a wheel with many external spokes
- •When you’re not ready to let go, life may force pieces to fall away
- •Supportive teammates can validate change instead of resisting it
- •Looking for new energy often leads you to it
- 2:52 – 6:09
Trusting your lived expertise: when the youngest person in the room has to lead
Hunter reflects on a major shift around 2018–2019: learning to trust his experience even when surrounded by veterans. Meet-and-greets and real fan conversations gave him insights the decision-makers didn’t have, and he learned to advocate for what he knew was true.
- •A common trap: assuming everyone knows more than you
- •Humility and self-trust must coexist (“so do I”)
- •Fans’ stories and connection data matter as real expertise
- •Learning to say: ‘You have to trust me on this’
- •Leadership includes owning outcomes: ‘If it fails, it’s on me’
- 6:09 – 8:02
Finding the line: gut checks, “flow,” and when to get in the backseat
Jefferson asks how Hunter decides between deferring to others vs planting a flag. Hunter explains he follows ‘flow’—sometimes resisting a decision until a new detail reveals purpose, then trusting the team when something larger becomes clear.
- •The right call can change when new information appears
- •‘Flow’ becomes a practical decision filter, not just a feeling
- •Sometimes you lead; sometimes you ‘sit in the backseat’
- •Purpose is often the missing piece that resolves resistance
- •Discernment is case-by-case, not a fixed rule
- 8:02 – 10:47
Flow state onstage vs offstage: being carried vs carrying
Hunter unpacks what flow means in performance and how the audience can sense presence instantly. They explore a vivid distinction: moments where life feels like it’s carrying you forward versus moments where you’re dragging everything uphill.
- •Onstage flow is unavoidable—there’s no ‘walking away’
- •Audiences can tell when an artist is checked in vs checked out
- •Flow feels like being carried rather than carrying the weight
- •Structure can coexist with flow (not pure improvisation)
- •Flow is a guide for life decisions, not only creativity
- 10:47 – 15:33
Fifteen years of self-work: therapy, fear of loss, and identity beyond the artist
Hunter shares his mental health journey, starting with early support tied to the pressures of finances and responsibility. Deeper work in 2018–2019 surfaced the fear beneath success: what happens if the identity and career disappear—and who remains.
- •Therapy began with managing anxiety while touring young
- •OCD tendencies and fear of losing it all were central themes
- •A powerful reframe: ‘You’ve done it before—can’t you do it again?’
- •Deeper work revealed fears about identity and relationships
- •‘Who am I if I’m not Hunter the artist?’ is a universal question
- 15:33 – 17:26
Shared human fears and turning them into connection through art
After the ad break, Jefferson normalizes the idea that we think we’re ‘terminally unique’ but share the same core fears. They connect this to songwriting: Hunter creates space for listeners to find themselves in the song, mirroring what great conversations can do.
- •We think no one can relate—until we realize the fear is universal
- •Core fear: ‘If they knew the worst of me, would they leave?’
- •Art turns private questions into shared language
- •A great song (or conversation) makes room for the other person
- •Reflecting on what you leave behind in conversation can ‘round you out’
- 17:26 – 22:16
Advice for growth: outgrowing yourself and playing “what if” on both teams
Jefferson returns to the core advice question, and Hunter offers a practical mental tool: if you run worst-case scenarios, you must also run best-case scenarios. They expand it with examples about jobs, friendships, and the mental distortions of forecasting feelings.
- •Growth is an option you can choose now
- •If you fear future pain, also imagine future opportunity
- •Worst-case thinking must be matched with best-case thinking
- •Humans are bad at predicting how outcomes will feel
- •Loss can create space for better alignment and new people
- 22:16 – 24:14
Resistance as a signal: the “hill climb” that led to breaking patterns
Hunter explains how he knew he needed space: too many areas felt like pushing uphill. Despite strong creative flow in private, he felt unheard and misunderstood professionally, and he didn’t yet know how to advocate for himself.
- •Creative flow existed, but external resistance kept rising
- •Working ‘against the grain’ can produce creativity but also burnout
- •Feeling unheard is a key indicator something must change
- •He lacked the skill (then) of saying ‘Trust me’ with conviction
- •Taking space wasn’t quitting—it was interrupting patterns
- 24:14 – 26:45
‘Dear God’ breaks the rules: the risky song that proved the point
Hunter tells the story of ‘Dear God’—a song that violated industry expectations yet became a standout in streaming and fan impact. The label’s reaction, the unconventional rollout, and the audience response reinforced that authenticity can outperform the playbook.
- •‘Dear God’ was everything he ‘wasn’t supposed to do’
- •A&R recognized it ‘meant something’ even without a clear plan
- •Nontraditional promotion still led to major listener traction
- •Fan tattoos and live reactions became proof of resonance
- •Sometimes the ‘scary’ creative choice is the most connecting
- 26:45 – 31:46
How the song was written: an “angry prayer,” deep questions, and a final surrender
Hunter breaks down the writing session with Andy Grammer and how conversation becomes the doorway to the song. The track becomes a sequence of questions that resolves into a plea for reassurance—moving from doubt to trust.
- •Co-writing starts with 30–45 minutes of honest conversation
- •The song arrived quickly once everyone ‘landed’ emotionally
- •Theme: wrestling with faith through questions instead of certainty
- •Key line reframes doubt: ‘Dear God, are you sure that you don’t mess up?’
- •Resolution: asking for the reminder that God doesn’t mess up
- 31:46 – 45:18
ADHD, systems, and renegotiating expectations: ‘I can’t do it that way’
They explore how Hunter’s evolving understanding of his brain affects work and collaboration. Using aviation metaphors (wind, weather, limits), he explains how honoring his operating system lets him set boundaries and deliver better results through different processes.
- •Learning his brain reduced shame and increased strategy
- •Aviation metaphor: even with skill, wind and weather matter
- •Shift from frustration to honoring how he works
- •Boundary language: ‘I hear you—I can’t do it that way’
- •Trusting his process improves outcomes even if others doubt it
- 45:18 – 49:49
Music as journaling and healing: production details, neurofeedback, and meaning-making
Hunter describes how producing music is a form of therapy—sitting with a song until it reveals what it’s trying to teach. He explains neurofeedback as a tool that helps ‘unstick’ patterns, and ties it to how songs like ‘Around the Sun’ evolve in confidence.
- •Production is emotional translation, not just technical work
- •‘Around the Sun’ was built to sonically mirror growth in confidence
- •Songs can teach the artist what they need next
- •Neurofeedback helps clear stuck patterns and supports new pathways
- •Journaling can be chaotic—music can be another form of journaling
- 49:49 – 54:05
Mentorship, faith, and conversational flow—then closing reflections on musicianship
Hunter shares a goal of meeting mentors more often and learning to enter conversations without over-controlling them. They connect faith, listening, and flow to everyday life, then end with a lighter closing around instruments, creativity, and Jefferson praising Hunter’s drumming.
- •Reaching out to mentors counters the ‘they’re too busy’ belief
- •A spiritual practice of listening replaces pre-planned control
- •Conversation can be like whitewater rafting—go with the river while staying safe
- •Flow applies to relationships, not just art
- •Wrap-up: instruments, drumming appreciation, and farewell
