The Jefferson Fisher PodcastHow to Set Boundaries with Dominant People (In-Laws, Bosses, Family)
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90 min read · 18,221 words- 0:00 – 2:31
Handling strong personalities: pick your battles, don’t personalize, use “cue” questions
- JFJefferson Fisher
We all know one, and in fact, we might just be one ourselves. Today's episode is all about how to communicate with and handle a strong personality. When it comes to handling that strong personality in your world, number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Don't attend every argument that you're invited to. People that are strong personalities like to make issues of every little thing, and it is up to you whether you take that bait or not. Arguments are often like chess. You have to give up some pieces in order to win, so don't sweat the small stuff. Number two, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally. People who have strong personalities often don't know that they're coming on that strong. It's just a product of their nature. So if you take it personally, you are going into the area of no return, where you're gonna find that you are at the bottom of a vortex, and you're asking, "Well, how did I even get here?" It's because you took it personally. We're going to talk about how to separate the person from the problem. That's why, number three, we're gonna give and talk about phrases that help cue the strong personality to back off nicely, respectfully. Uh, cues such as, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Or, "Are you asking me to agree with you?" Or, "Do I need to agree with you?" You are letting them know that they are being a little bit too pushy, coming on a little bit too strong, and they need to back off. Just because it's a strong personality does not mean it's a bad personality. There are plenty of people out there that are wonderful. They just have strong personalities. They come on really strong, and that can happen for any number of issues. Maybe it's part of their nature. It's what they grew up in. I'm in a family of strong personalities. Uh, I'm surrounded by attorneys in the legal world, all very strong personalities. It might be a, a symptom of or a consequence of that's how they control their surroundings. That's how they operate. Again, it's part of their nature. And if you leverage a strong personality, they can do wonderful things. Many successful people are strong personalities, so it is not something... I, I wanna make sure that you understand I am not saying that a strong personality is something negative. It is something that can be highly positive. I'm a strong personality, all right? But it is in these moments where you are having an argument or a conflict or a disagreement that you tend to take that strong personality as something negative. I want you to stay away from that. Strong personalities are something that can be very positive and
- 2:31 – 4:01
“Don’t make it your Alamo”: deciding what’s worth fighting about
- JFJefferson Fisher
benefit any environment that they're in. I wanna talk more on number one, don't sweat the small stuff. Now, you might say, "Jefferson, that's easier said than done." I know. I know. Now, in my world, my dad would often, when I'd come to y- him with issues, um, and say, "This is what's happening," and, um, um, maybe I'm arguing [laughs] with my mom as a teenager or one of my siblings, my dad would say, "Don't make it your Alamo. Don't make that your Alamo." In other words, is... He was cueing me of this, is this issue really something that you wanna die on? Is this the hill that you wanna die on? Is this what you're gonna s- put your flag in the ground and say, "I'm not moving from this"? Often, that question would make me go, "You know what? Yeah, you're right. [laughs] That's not, that's not that important." And often, that- that's just part of human nature. We find ways to go, "They're not doing what I want, so I'm gonna argue with them, and now it's their fault." And that often just causes a whole lot of problems in our life that can be avoided if we just don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe it's that moving the couch, you know, to the other side of the room. Maybe it's a different detergent. Maybe somebody, uh, sat in your seat when you just got up. Little things that, in reality, they don't matter. And the more you find that you sweat the small stuff, you sh- you make an argument out of everything, and you attend every argument you're invited to, it's gonna slowly erode your peace of mind. You're gonna be more and more sensitive. You're gonna be more and more, um, on attack mode and on the offense all the time, and it's just not worth it. And that goes hand-in-hand with the concept of not taking it personally. When
- 4:01 – 5:33
Reading the hidden need behind pushiness and separating person from problem
- JFJefferson Fisher
somebody with a strong personality is coming on and wanting their way and pushing, the question that I like to ask myself is, what does this person need? What do they need? What are they needing in this moment? What are they, uh, not just from me, but from the whole context of the conversation? Maybe it's they need to feel like they're secure. Maybe they need to feel like they have confidence. Maybe they need that sense of control. Maybe there is the unknown that they need a few things. There's always some kind of hidden need that is beneath the surface of their p- personality because w- you and I both know people that have very strong personalities, at the same time, can be entirely insecure. And so it's that insecurity that is driving and forcing that. So ask the question and find out whether or not where is this push coming from. When we said somebody's a strong personality, it's often because we say it feels like they're pushing in the conversation. They're always pushing their opinion, pushing their point of view and, and there's no neutral territory for us to talk in. So often, you have to separate that person from the problem, meaning instead of saying, "God, you're so pushy. You, you, you, you," talk about their character, "You never listen to me. You always want your way." Instead of the you, you're talking about the problem, meaning you're talking about the issue itself. Let's get back to the issue at hand. I wanna talk about the issue. Let's talk about what you're needing out of this conversation, what I need out of this conversation, instead of focusing on talking and disparaging each other's character. And the phrases that have always worked for me
- 5:33 – 8:05
Cue-phrases that politely make dominant people back off (agreement + timing)
- JFJefferson Fisher
are what I call cues. I've mentioned that several times in this episode. These are just questions that I ask, and they're really statements that sound like a question that I'm, I'm using to prompt them to look at themselves. That's the, that's the point. Instead of me pushing something, like using an arrow to shoot at them, I'm using a mirror to get them to listen to themselves. For example, if somebody's strong personality is trying to push something onto me, I will use the question, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Usually the answer is no. Almost always the answer is no. They're just talking about it to talk about it. If by chance the answer is, "Yes, this is something we have to agree on," I follow that up with, "Well, is this something we need to agree on right now? Is this something we have to agree on now?" That adds the component, component of timing, because often it's not the right time. People with strong personalities push time frames on you. They want you to have that conversation when they want to have that conversation. That doesn't mean it's right for you. So often you need to have that conversation when you're ready, too. So when you can prompt them by saying, "Is this something we have to agree on now?" Almost always the answer to that is no. They're gonna say, "No. I mean, we, we can talk about this later. You're right, we can talk about this later." And nine times out of 10, whatever was so important to that strong personality right there in that moment, in a few hours it's not that important. The next day, totally forgotten. When you can delay it, not with the small stuff, and not take it personally, it takes away the teeth out of it. Some other questions that have helped me in the past is asking them, "Is this something that we need to agree on at this moment?" Uh, I'm asking them, "Do we need to agree on this? Are you asking me to agree to this?" That's what I typically go with. I'll ask, "Do you need me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you? Do I need to agree with you on this?" I'm just pushing that question to them of saying, "Hey, you understand that you're pushing your own opinion. Are you asking me to agree? Do I need to agree with you?" Often the answer is no. Accuse them that they're being a little bit too pushy in the conversation, and they will back off. The answer I typically get is, "No, no, no, no. I, you know, I'm just wondering about..." And that's what you want. You want that, "No, no, no, no. I, I... What I mean to... What I'm just trying to say is..." And it backs them off and lets them know that they're coming on just a little too strong. Now we're at one of my favorite parts of the podcast, and that's when I get to
- 8:05 – 11:38
Follower question: overbearing father-in-law—using cues and ‘calling your shot’
- JFJefferson Fisher
read a question from a follower. I have a weekly newsletter where I send out a email right to your inbox once a week that gives a short, concise communication tip. If you're not part of that newsletter, you're gonna find it there in the show notes below. Uh, I get to ask... You know, get a question from a follower, and I pick one out. This one right here, let me pull out my phone. This one is from Shannon in Dallas. She says, "Jefferson, thank you so much for your content." Thanks, Shannon. "I have a issue with an overbearing father-in-law. He always tries to push his opinion onto me, especially if it's only he and I in the room and nobody else is around. He's trying to get me to agree with his side, whether it's politics or how things should be done around the house or my role. Any advice would be helpful." Shannon, I hear you, and that's difficult. That is a strong personality, especially in-laws. In-laws can... You know, they typically have strong personalities. That doesn't mean it's bad. It's, it's often good. Here's what I'm gonna recommend to you. Any time, one, I'm assuming... I'm gonna make some assumptions. Number one, I'm assuming that the conversation is appropriate, meaning he's talking about something that is okay to talk about. He's not asking inappropriate questions. He's not pushing something that is making you super uncomfortable. He just has a pushy, strong personality. What I'm going to recommend to you is, one, you use the question of, "Is this something we have to agree on? Is this something we have to agree on?" Or, "Are you asking me to agree with you? Are you asking me to agree with you?" Often the answer you're gonna find, and I, I'll be surprised if it's not, the answer you're gonna get is, "No. No, no, no, I'm just... You know, I'm just asking. I'm just, you know, wondering your thoughts on this." It's okay to, to prompt them with those questions, but often you'll find they'll move on, 'cause you're indicating to them that he's being a little bit too pushy in the conversation. Here's another thought that's coming to my mind. Often you can frame a conversation in a way that allows them not to have that control in the first place. So if you find that he raises an issue and he's trying to push something on you, and you want to get out of it, you need to tell him how you want the conversation to end, meaning you call your shot ahead of time. You're just telling them how you want the conversation to end, and it sounds like this. If you're getting into that conversation, and you find maybe you're two minutes into it, you go, "Look, I wanna walk away from this conversation with us with the understanding that this is gonna be this way," or, "This isn't going to change. I want you to have... I wanna walk away with the understanding of..." I wanna walk away is the key phrase. I want to end this conversation understanding blah, blah, blah. I want to walk away from this conversation with X, Y, and Z. It's not you actually walking away. I'm not saying you leave the conversation, though if you need to, you certainly could. It is the idea of I am telling you right now how I want this conversation to end, and that's how this is going to go, period. That way they can't guide it anywhere else. You're saying, "Look, I, I wanna end this conversation with..." Let's say his name was Carl. I don't know. You said, "Carl, look, I, I wanna end this conversation with you and I on good terms, all right? Carl, I wanna end this conversation and us have a great day. I wanna walk away with this conversation feeling good. I wanna walk away from this conversation excited for the dinner we're about to have." Just find ways to, to cue them out of saying, "Look, this is where I wanna end this conversation. Don't take us to a bad place. Don't take us towards somewhere difficult." It's okay to have a strong personality, but understand that on the end of it, I wanna come away with a positive takeaway that's
- 11:38 – 16:10
Dealing with conversation monopolizers: interrupt, filter-and-pass, time-limit
- JFJefferson Fisher
gonna preserve both of our peace of minds. Now, we all know people that no matter the conversation, they always find a way to talk about themselves. And even if it's not about themselves, it's always seems to be their voice that takes up the entire conversation. On today's episode, we're discussing how to handle people who dominate conversations. When it comes to somebody dominating a conversation, and not in the good way, as in they're not letting anybody else speak, they're the ones always having to hear their own voice, there are some things I need you to do. Number one, interrupt them. You interrupt that person. Now, I know it doesn't sound like me to suggest that, but it's true. Because if they're not going to respect your time, then you have to do it, and there's a particular way I want you to do that. You interrupt them by using their name You start low and then you go higher because people listen to their name. Their name gets their attention. It's the best word they can ever hear is their name. So if I were to hear you and I... or somebody was listening to me and I just said, "Hey, Jefferson. Jefferson. Jefferson," you say it as often and as loud as you need to because it will eventually make them stop. Number two, when they do stop, I want you to filter and pass it. Here's what I mean. Filter as in you're going to summarize what they just said very quickly and then pass it to somebody else to say, "Hey, I totally hear you. I understand what you're just saying. I'm curious to hear what Bob has to say or what Susie has to say," or you turn it on yourself, "My thoughts are..." And number three, if they're still dominating the conversation, then you gotta put a time limit on it. You have to find a way to get out of there because you're not reaching them. So it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I've got about five more minutes and then I need to get going. I need to do other things." But time limit is the only way to make sure that they're just gonna continue to talk as long as they have an audience. And at the end of it, you just have to understand when somebody's dominating the conversation, it's not a, it's not a two-way street. It's a one-way street. It's a monologue and you didn't buy a ticket to hear it. So if they're not going to respect the way conversation should happen, it's time that you respect yourself. And most of the time, these kind of scenarios happen in meetings. Zoom meeting, in-person meeting, it doesn't matter. Where I see it most is in Zoom meetings because, uh, now after COVID with everything, a lot of the legal world has moved to Zoom where everything is virtual and I'm sure that's the same way in your world. But what typically happens is that there is, let's say a dozen people, 10 people, eight people on the Zoom and before you know it, it's just one person talking the entire time. It's one person who always has an opinion. It's one person who always has to feel like they're contributing to the conversation way more than their share and they think truly inside themselves, they just don't have the emotional intelligence to realize that people aren't really... They're kind of getting tired of you talking the entire time. That filter isn't there for them so they just, they keep talking the entire time. And in meetings especially, you have to make sure that person doesn't do that because it'll just kill your meeting. It, it'll, it'll ruin it. It will, it will reduce productivity. It will get people aggravated. You know that feeling where all of a sudden they're, they need to comment again and everybody kind of lets out a sigh like, "Oh, great. This person again. Oh, geez, I wish we could just go..." It, it, it'll absolutely ruin your, your meeting and the productivity and where you want to go. So when that kind of thing happens, you have to step out in front of it the first time. If you just let them drone on because you're afraid to offend them, you're afraid to, uh, come out in front and feel like that's being too direct, then you just have to be okay with a bad meeting because it's, it's not going to happen. Also, understand that when people are dominating the conversation, it's often a sense of insecurity. Like most things, we feel that the more we talk, the more intelligent we are, the more people will see how smart we are, how much we're trying to contribute. But often what I find in meetings is the person who speaks the most is typically the one that knows the least. It's the person who's the least out of touch so they have to overcompensate and feel like everybody around them can have some kind of faith in them so they, they talk a whole lot. But often the more you say, it just shows the less that you know. So you're gonna be careful about that in your next meeting. But here's the takeaway. When somebody's dominating and trying to control the conversation, you have to step out in front of it quickly because if you don't, it
- 16:10 – 22:14
How to interrupt without offense: acknowledge, don’t apologize, then redirect
- JFJefferson Fisher
can, it can go south in a hurry. And I hear some of you already going, "Jefferson, I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting this person. I don't, I don't feel comfortable interrupting them. They're gonna get upset if I interrupt them." No, they're not. They're gonna want to stop and listen. Maybe they might be a little bit frustrated, but your purpose is true and here's how I'm going to help you with that. When you need to interrupt somebody, there's a difference between me just starting to share my thought. Let's say for example you're talking to me, telling me a story and I've heard this story a million times. There's a difference between me cutting in and going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean we, we all know. We all know, okay?" And then just ignoring you and continue to go on with my thought. That's gonna upset you, right? That's gonna make you feel like, "Oh, they just, they just interrupted me. They just cut me off." But if I were to use your name and say, "Jefferson, I need to interrupt you," all of a sudden it doesn't feel like an interruption because I told you what it is. I told you that I'm interrupting you and I know we've discussed this before on the podcast on how to handle interruptions but it's the same, same true for people who dominate conversations. If I tell you that I'm interrupting you, if I say I know I'm interrupting or I need to interrupt you, nobody takes offense to it because here you're acknowledging what you're doing. It's, it's the acknowledgement of the formality. So yes, I understand typically I should not be interrupting. I should be hearing you out and in this case you have to because they're not respecting the formality of I say something then you say something. I say something, you say something. It's, it's just all about them. So if you took... think about it in a pie chart, there's these people who control the conversation to hear their own voice a lot of ways and they're totally fine with taking up 98% of the pie and leaving 2% to you really for that 2% to tell them how great they are or how smart they are. We're not gonna be doing that. Here it's as simple as using their name because it's going to get their attention. They're gonna perk up to that to when you say, "Hey Jefferson," they're... it's gonna automatically turn, turn to you. They're gonna look at you especially the more you raise your voice in that way but you're gonna do it kind. You're not gonna do it in a way that is rough or rude or just exasperated. That's gonna, that's gonna make it go further south. Here You are pulling them back in, in a way, nudging them back in to how a conversation is supposed to go, especially one that you're going to be involved in. Because understand, what you're doing here is also informing them, "Hey, if you want to have a conversation with me, this is how this is going to go. I'm going to say something, you're going to say something, and we're going to acknowledge each other's points. I'm not here, I didn't buy a ticket to listen to the show where I just sit and you get to say everything and I have to be quiet." That's not it. Here, you are showing them your manual. If you want to communicate with me, this is how you're going to do it. So when you use their name, it gets their attention. And it's easy way, if you feel like you're being too direct, to tell them, "I need to interrupt you." Mind, this is a big key, this is a big key point of this, mind you. Do not apologize. Look at me. Listen to me. Don't apologize. Don't say, "I'm so sorry to interrupt you." You are not sorry for it. You are not sorry for it. Here, you need to do it. It is them that has put you in this position. So you're not going to apologize for having a boundary. You're not going to apologize for needing to take a stance and say, "This can't continue." Cool? So you're not going to say, "I'm sorry." It is, "I need to interrupt you." That is as simple as that. Or, "I'm interrupting you. I know I'm interrupting you." Both of those will even allow them to go, "Okay, I'm listening." It'll totally turn it to you and they're not going to take offense to it because you're acknowledging it in the moment. And one point I want to make very clear is that once you interrupt them and filter and pass it, part of that is the acknowledgement. It is key that when you need to take the conversation away from somebody who is dominating and monopolizing the conversation, you acknowledge what they have said. Summarize it very briefly, even if just one sentence. Because it, it, otherwise, they're going to feel totally shut down and dismissed and it's going to lead to negative things. I don't want that for you. You can simply cure that by summarizing what they just said. For example, let's assume that, um, you are talking to me on a given topic and I interrupt you. Let's say your name's Jefferson. Weird name. Such a lame name. [laughs] And I need to interrupt you. And I just go, "Hey, Jefferson, Jefferson." And then all of a sudden I just start, cut off my thought and I go, "Hey, Jefferson, I, I want to hear what Lauren has to say about this." You s- hear how all of a sudden I just felt, you, you feel cut off from me? If I were to say, "Hey Jefferson, I wanna, yeah, I, I wanna hear what Greg has to say." You're gonna feel cut off immediately. Instead, if I said, "Hey Jefferson, I hear you. I, I agree that this point and that point and that point," or, "I, I hear you that this is something that is frustrating you. I don't disagree. I'd like to hear what so-and-so has to say ab- on this point." Here I just, I f- I summarize it. I say, "Thank you for what you've shared." Again, I'm distilling it to the important point, and then I pass it to somebody else. Or you can pass it to yourself easily. It's just as simple as, as saying, "Hey Jefferson, I, I hear your point. I, I'm not saying I agree with it. My thought here is blah, blah, blah." I- you're just taking it because you've acknowledged what they've said, and then now you're passing it on to the next one because they're not sharing the ball, right? They're, they're hogging the ball the, the entire time. So it's on you to kinda kindly take
- 22:14 – 24:18
Why people dominate: insecurity, loneliness, neurodivergence—and when to show grace
- JFJefferson Fisher
it from their hands and pass it on to continue playing the game. Otherwise, nothing is going to happen. I also wanna make sure and add a disclaimer in here that people who monopolize conversations and, and dominate them, it's not necessarily on purpose. It goes back to what I originally said is it's an insecurity. Bottom line, it's an insecurity type thing that they don't realize how much they're talking. I find in my world that it is people who get older in life that don't realize how much they're talking. It is also the plain sense of let's just, let's, let's approach that situation, that situation with some grace, so that you may be the only person they've spoken to. You, you might be, if it's somebody who's, um, older and they haven't seen anybody today, and you're now the one that's gonna be talking to them, they might have a week's worth of information, of stories and things that they just want to share. Because in that moment, they have a reason for feeling like they're alive and valuable and important and, and you're gonna be the one, the, the focus in that. If that's the kind of situation, then you just need to be patient. It's that moment where instead of going, "Ah, this is such a waste of time," being reflective of saying, "I need to slow down a little bit. What, what's here for me?" So understand there's always two sides of the same coin, especially for even people that are neurodivergent, they have ADHD. Maybe, um, they have other kinds of, um, issues that make it difficult in the way their brain functions to not stop talking. And that's, that's nothing, that does not mean that it's a weakness. It just means it's something to learn and to deal with, uh, and differently. And that, that's my whole point of this episode is not that people who dominate conversations are evil and terrible. It is simply that it happens naturally with everybody, including yourself, and that just means it's, it's something to handle and react to and respond to in a very productive and efficient way.
- 24:18 – 32:14
Not attending every argument (online/offline): emotional regulation and restraint
- SPSpeaker
You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's brilliant.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Thank you. [laughs] It is a, a mindset of instead of the default where somebody is engaging an opinion with you, and we're opinion-making machines.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Something happens in the world, where, where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
To who? Their audience of six people that, you know, are on their Facebook or something. And they, uh, and they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree, they disagree, and who's attacking who, and who's a snowflake, and who's the whatever. And that kind of behavior solves, is nothing. In effect, it's very draining. In effect, if we wanna say that's a symptom of a very bad health, uh, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are, are unhealthy, not just physically, but mentally un- unwell. All right? So if you want to make sure that you stop attending every argument you're invited to, you need to understand that there's a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you, and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely if they don't like you, they're not that important. You know? Uh, who, who do you wanna keep in your life?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, who, who do you wanna surround yourself with? And I feel like any time somebody gives you an invitation to an argument, we go, "Oh, yep, absolutely. Check yes. I will be attending." And that's a, that's a one-way ticket to, um, bad health.
- SPSpeaker
It, it comes down to emotional awareness, self-awareness, emotional regulation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... doesn't it? Because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated, I think it becomes easier to not attend every argument. When your nervous system is in high alert, when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... it's sometimes harder to separate.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also our ability to communicate well, right? And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, "Hey, you know what? I don't, I don't wanna get involved with that."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You know? Uh, something I've learnt being online sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Or, or you can have an opinion and not share it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Now, people can expect me to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm. Right.
- SPSpeaker
"I should be commenting on this event." Great. No problem. I don't think I should.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- 32:14 – 41:50
Taking offense less: identity, fear of change, and why mind-changing takes time
- SPSpeaker
I, I sort of in, in my, in my last book, uh, Jeff, so Make Change At Last, there's a chapter called Take Less Offense. Okay. I think you'd really enjoy it actually.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, um, in that chapter I make the case that offense is something we choose to do, right? Nothing is inherently offensive because if it was, we'd all find the same thing offensive.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I love that.
- SPSpeaker
The fact that we don't means it's not the comment or the thing that was causing the offense. It was something within us that was being activated.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Right? I'm not excusing poor behavior here.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Sure.
- SPSpeaker
I'm just saying that nothing is inherently offensive. We're choosing to take offense, right? And I'm ... I sort of also make the case in that chapter that on some level taking offense is actually or could be argued to be a little bit arrogant. And, and, and the reason I say that is because if you think about it rationally, there's eight billion people on the planet, right? Is it reasonable to believe that every other human being on this planet is gonna have the same view and perspective on the world as I do? No, right? It's not reasonable at all. Clearly some people in the world are gonna see the world differently from me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
They're gonna have different ethics, different religion, a different way of being brought up, uh, different levels of trauma. Whatever it might be, they're gonna see the world differently. So they may actually disagree with me on certain things. They may see things completely differently. It doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right, or I'm right and they're wrong.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It just means they see it differently.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
And I k- and I kind of feel, bringing it back to your book, one of the things I love about it is I think there's a real deep compassion behind the tools.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Which relates to what I just said, which is you don't know what's going on with that person. You know? What the person you see is not always the person you're talking to.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
W- and that's, I think, one of the things I love the most about it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right. You choose to take offense to certain things. And I, I'm of the mindset of any time you just hear change, you hear about change, it makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you, that's change. You're hearing. It makes you go, " Meh, I don't like that." So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe. We like what is known.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You ... Let's say I want to change your mind about something, and you have this political view. Let's say it's a religious view, for example. A, and, and I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are gonna happen. Because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother's wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life is all wrong. And people will, will do anything far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you in order to preserve what they know.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And it is so easy for people ... That's why a lot of times in a political climate they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I am comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it's ... comes down from the people that put their value in us, and we will defend the people in our lives that have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... but if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't ... You don't get to say my dad's wrong. I, I'm the one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity. And so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence. Even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it, we will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It's a great point. I mean, obviously you are an American citizen, and, you know, American politics is, uh, very interesting these days.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's a great word.
- 41:50 – 46:31
“Never win an argument”: what winning really costs (contempt, resentment, regret)
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Some of what you just said there speaks to one of the other life lessons in the book, which is never win an argument.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
What does that mean?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Whenever you set out to win an argument, you will lose the relationship over time. If I were to say, "Do you know anybody in your life who always has to be right? They always have to have the final say. They always have to have the last word," those kind of people are n- not someone anybody wants to be around. It's typically an audience of one, and the more you try to win and prove, you lower the quality and connection of that relationship. What you've really won is their contempt. Let's say you and I are in an argument. Rather than me trying to understand you, I have to win. Win often sounds like I'm the last one to talk. That's what we typically have in conversations.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The one who says something last is the one who somehow wins. Maybe you said something really ugly, because you and I have been personal friends for forever, and I know that one button that I can say that s- speaks right to your insecurity, and all of a sudden, you shut down. Does that mean I win? Probably not, but that's the feeling. Or if you and I are in a conflict of opinion, and I'm the one that says, "No, I have to be right," and you go, "You know what? Fine. You're right. You're right." Is that really winning? Over time, they're gonna feel contempt for you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
What you really want is to be the first to apologize. I mean, that's, that's kind of the procedure of, of arguments. The person who said the worst thing last is typically the one who has to apologize first. What I like to teach is instead of trying to win the argument, you look to unravel them. You find the knots in the conversation and get really quick and really proficient at loosening them.
- SPSpeaker
Why do you think so many people take things personally when they're having a conversation?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Our default is to make things about me, make things about I, not so much you. And it's just a shift of perspective-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that we make everything, everything about, about us. Like, as me, as an, um, a young associate at the law firm, us associates, um, would complain about the partners because the partners don't care. Partners don't listen to us. The part- All they do is think about themselves. When I made partner, I got a... Within probably five minutes, I got an email, and I thought, "These associates. All they do is care about themselves."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know, it's very us versus them-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... mentality. When you're the employee, you hate the management. When you're the management, you hate the employee. You always find a way to make it about you. It's, it's our default. It's why we take things personally. It's why when you... If I were to text you, "Okay," you're not gonna be, "Look at that. Look how nice Jefferson is. He said okay in the happiest way possible." Instead, you're gonna go, "Okay. W- what kind of okay is that? Is, like, a, is that a okay okay?-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... or is that, like, a okay?" Like, what... We, we find ways of reading the negative in texts and email, any transactional correspondence like that.
- SPSpeaker
Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody, or is that you literally mean that, don't try to win an argument?
- JFJefferson Fisher
I literally mean that. If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge, uh, and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a, a law that is applying to this, and they just... I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, "Well, I have to win a lot of trials." Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you wanna spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. Um, but the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's, it's lying to you. Because what you're gonna do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship. You're gonna lose their respect. They're gonna close themselves off from you. You're gonna be less approachable. You're gonna lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.
- 46:31 – 51:00
Resetting dominance dynamics: don’t compete; be the calm anchor
- SPSpeaker
Hmm. What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. Like, his content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words. Where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, friend, boss and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson, or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of, wrestle's the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a convers- You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... people that, in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything. You're not. They're in charge. You're not. They're picking the restaurant. You're not.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I, I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because th- this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting, and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're gonna do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not gonna push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, "Okay. Noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask." This ability to kind of be in the, in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. "Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, uh, Ed? Ed's great. Yeah, you need to..." And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, uh, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet, and when that person speaks Everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet
- SPSpeaker
You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, "Oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, y- who do you think you're talking to?" And they need to correct and, and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the, the best leaders have a calm energy about them. When they're on the floor of whatever's happening, instead of this erratic, you know, "What's going on? Okay, we need to do this," and, and they start shouting and, and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, "Okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next?" Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward. So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.
- 51:00 – 55:17
Staying calm in conflict: breath, slowing down, detaching, and using acknowledgment
- SPSpeaker
What do you personally do when you get frustrated in an argument? Or, I mean, you, you've shared some things, but, uh, have you just done it so much that these are your go-to phrases when you feel like someone's attacking you or saying things that are just blatantly wrong or blatantly a lie? I mean, when that sense of justice kind of comes up in you, how do you keep yourself calm?
- JFJefferson Fisher
How do I keep myself calm? Breathing works every time. Um, I am a big proponent of the breath because I can tell in my shoulders-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... my shoulders are getting tense. That's what happens.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So the traps that, my muscles, like, get real tight, and I realize, "Wait, what am I doing?" So if I breathe, big breath in and out, that helps me a lot to calm down. But I also tend to, and this is just from repetition, I am, am... I like to detach myself from bad arguments, so I, I like to kind of watch them-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... third party kind of thing, of understanding what's, what's happening in that moment. So when somebody's saying bad stuff to me, I picture myself having, like, a garbage, like, trash can [laughs] right here. So whenever I get it, I just put it away. Like, I never allow it to... I don't allow myself to carry it. I don't allow myself to take it personally.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I hear it. I don't even... I'm not even putting it in my basket. I'm just putting it in the trash, and that image to me helps keeps me a lot more calm so that I'm not chasing rabbit trails to, to, to, to no man's land. If I want to stay right on path, that's one of the most frustrating things I think for people when they get really mad at, in an argument, is the person who's being logical. [laughs] Uh, because at that moment you want to be emotional. You want them to be emotional. You, you have to find a way that, "No, this is threatening to me. I have to... I fight or flight. I need to fight you. I want to say something hurtful. I want to throw something. This is my fight mode saying I need to beat you." But if you don't ever present yourself as an opponent in a way to where they're never able to rise to really to grab onto something... Like, if I yelled back at you, I've now just gave them a pedestal to jump even further.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
If I say something ugly, I've now just justified their words. Now they get to grab for more every time.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
But if I just never offer that, I diffuse it every time. And so often I'll have other attorneys go, "Man, I w- I, I wish you weren't on this case, or else I'd be able to make... You know, I'd be able to get a lot more passionate and angry and" And they're just not able to because I never, I never provide them that, that rope. So breath works a lot. Uh, slowing my voice and my words down help a lot. 'Cause slowing your words is always very useful.
- SPSpeaker
And calming.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And calming, yeah. So it, it calms, it calms them down. If I have somebody on the phone, uh, or in front of me and they are all worked up-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... just for me to say, look at them and say, "I hear you." Like, it doesn't matter who it is, they go, "Okay." Like, [laughs] I just, uh... They just want to know that I'm acknowledging them oftentimes, and that, that calms them down pretty quickly.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Are there ever times, though, when you want to excite them? So instead of calming them down, like, you need them to actually be-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... a bit more passionate.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And then what do you do in those instances? Just the opposite, like talk faster?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm. You got it. That's exactly right.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's exactly right. So if I'm, if I'm wanting to amp somebody up, if I really want to get things going, then I'm gonna talk a whole lot faster, and my, my volume is gonna start to increase, and I'm gonna say, "Hey, look, I need you to be engaged here with me. When I say this, I need you to be th-" And then now I'm starting to, like, get them elevated because they're starting to match my frequency, right?
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So that's, that's what I do.
- SPSpeaker
That's right. I was like, "I'm all in, Jefferson. Tell me, where are we going?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- 55:17 – 1:09:19
Healthier couple conflict + parenting ripple effects: quick repair, clarify intent, be honest
- SPSpeaker
I would love for all those people at home who are either in partnerships or friendships where arguing happens. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Jefferson Fisher, uh- You and your wife being attorneys, being phenomenal communicators, right? Having sometimes your job depending on it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and then you, of course, becoming now one of the most well-known communicators in the world, um, tens of millions of people going to you for this, uh, how do you and your wife argue?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And, like, let us in on all the secrets-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... that we all need to be doing differently.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Are you ready for the tea?
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. My wife... No, I'm kidding.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, she's a fantastic communicator. What law really teaches you to be concise, and what I like to compare it is I'm a lot slower. She operates a lot faster, but often we have to communicate the same level. When you have two kids, and you're raising a family and everything, it's, it's a lot. Our arguments are very short, and the reason because of that is we operate on this very quick to apologize, very quick to resolve. If you want your argument to be shorter with your spouse, with your partner, with your friend, be quick to apologize.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So often it is the continual circular arguments that just tend to roll on forever 'cause you can't really sleep. When you're having that bad argument with your spouse or a significant other, it keeps you up at night.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It begins to live and seep, and now you're having to put on an act for your kids-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... when really you're irritated at each other, and you wanna lash out.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Being quick to apologize and quick to resolve, that makes our arguments very short because we're fast to say, "That's not what I meant," or, you know, "I, I, I can see how that's how you would take it. I didn't, I didn't mean it that way," or, "I didn't intend it that way."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Whenever you can push out your intentions rather than pushing how they should react, that's a big difference.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
What I mean by that is here I am taking the accountability of I could have done better communicating that versus why would you behave that way. Why would you even behave that way when I said this? Who reacts like that?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So when you, when you take the responsibility for being understood-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... radical things can change.
- 1:09:19 – 1:35:40
Boundaries with authority figures and family: soft dismiss, hard dismiss, and ending relationships cleanly
- SPSpeaker
People wanna feel like they're, they're respecting themselves, and they're standing up for themselves, and they're not letting people walk all over them in conversation. And some of the stuff that we've been talking about over the last few minutes is really how to make the other p- person feel heard, how to not pour gasoline on the existi- exis- existing, existing fire with our words. In the context of speaking with authority and conviction and standing up for yourself to somebody, what have you found to be an effective way to do so without being disrespectful?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I see two sides of that question. You know, there is what we just talked about, the person's desire to feel acknowledged, to feel heard, and you can do that with phrases like, "That's helpful for me to know. I've learned that X is important to you," or, "I understand that this is important to you," and you can lower their barrier that way. But to continue to stand up for you, there's gotta be a boundary. Th- there's a lot of, mm, I'm gonna use the word peace that, and clarity that comes with putting a frame around your life and around the conversation. That means you are focusing what is in it and excluding what is not. Just like you would p- put a piece of frame, a frame around a piece of art, you are enhancing what's inside it. So if y- you wanna put up a boundary with somebody, somebody's pushing your buttons, you need to say no. You need to stand up for it. You're using assertive language. So I, I, what I like to give it for people is you're giving them a manual rather than giving them a m- a remote. So instead of letting them control your behavior by pushing all your buttons, y- you're telling them, "I don't accept the way you talk to me." So there's a difference in saying, "You can't talk to me that way." "I don't allow people to speak to me that way." So, um, or even stronger, somebody says, "You can't speak to me that way." "I don't respond to that." Like it's just this shift of this reactive, uh, versus responding in a way that keeps you grounded by having a boundary of what's important to you and how you're gonna speak and how, how you're gonna assert yourself in the conversation.
- SPSpeaker
So in real time, if, if, if you and I, let's just pretend we're actually having coffee right now.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, yeah. Coffee sounds good. I need some.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] And you say something to me about something, and I go, "That sounds really stupid of you," what would be the-- Instead of you-- What would, what would be, like, the real time, like, response to me in that situation?
- JFJefferson Fisher
So there's two, two that come to mind. Um, let's assume that we are friends, that we know each other, we're good. My immediate reaction would be, "Was, was that meant to be hurtful, or were you just being funny?" Get that to clarify. I'm giving them that grace of, "I, I, y- I know you didn't mean to, I know you didn't mean to insult me." Now, if we're not friends, I'm gonna let that linger, give it five seconds of quiet, and then repeat what you've just said or ask you to repeat what you just said. So if you said so- and for example, if I just had quiet, I could say, "So that sounds, that sounds stupid to you." And all I'm doing is repeating it, and then they'll go, "Well, what I meant was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So but what you're doing is saying, "Hey, this is... I'm standing here. I'm standing right here, uh, and I'm not, I'm not moving. So understand if I don't like something, I will push it back," rather than me continuing to carry your words and me feel less and less and less of myself.
- SPSpeaker
So we talked about, like, how, like, the biggest asset you can have is using your breath and practicing the pause before saying anything in the midst of h- high-conflict situations or conversations like we just, um, went over. Is the opposite also true? Because you, you hear a lot of people, and I've definitely been guilty of this, is, like, the tick for tack. Like, somebody says something to you, and then you try to one-up with them with something else, and it's just this never-ending battle to the bottom, right? [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. It, yeah, the race to the bottom is exactly what it is. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Is that the biggest mistake you see people make is just this tick for tack approach when they're-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. It's this- ... perception that you have to win the argument, when my advice is always never win the argument. That winning an argument is not a thing. If you win an argument, you've, you've won contempt. You've, you've won regret. Uh, you've won resentment. It, it's, there, there's, it's a lose-lose game. Um, what you've really lost is that person's respect. You might have lost the relationship, the connection that you once had because you thought that saying that hurtful thing was gonna make you win. It was gonna end the conversation. Like in a n- negotiation, the advice is the person who speaks loses, right? Well, in a relationship you wanna build, it's typically the person who speaks last loses because you went too far. I mean, you, you, you ratchet, you ratchet. So as soon as... Let's say you said something to me, Doug, that was at a louder tone. If I go louder than you, in my mind I'm winning. I need to beat you. Well, I've now just done two things. I've justified your ability to go even louder. I've also just confirmed every fear that you had about me. I've, I've now confirmed every thought you had. I am rude, I am ugly, because I haven't denied it. I've just given you all the tools and resources to feel even more afraid. So it's, it, I'm, I am... It's like, uh, it doesn't make sense to me that how would you respond to a threat with a bigger threat? Often that just, that does not create connection with the other person. It, it, it doesn't. It just makes them not like you more. [chuckles] Um, so that's, that's, that's kind of the advice that I always fall back to, is that if you win an argument, your priorities are in the wrong place. It is a, it is a race to the bottom. Uh, whenever you just ratchet it, eventually it hits a tipping point. You know, the, the sympathetic turns into the parasympathetic. The ratchet, the fight or flight you did something to, you fought too hard, you threw that very hurtful word, and now it's the cooling point where you feel regret, you feel dread, you feel sad, and you go, "I just feel bad about the whole thing." And then you focus on what matters, but you should've done it in reverse.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. There's nothing that drives somebody more nuts, like in the midst of a high-conflict conversation w- is when, when the other person says, like, nothing, you know, and they kinda walk away, and it really drives... They're like, "I can't believe they're not reacting and responding-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... to how I am," right? And it's like, it sucks like sometimes when you send, like, a hurtful text and the other person-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... just doesn't respond. You just send-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... more and more and more-
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's killing you
- SPSpeaker
... trying to get somebody to answer.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
'Cause you wanted that dopamine, right?
- SPSpeaker
Right. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You wanted that, like, you wanted that, like, "Ah, yes, they are fighting back with me." Uh, then conflict-
- SPSpeaker
And you feel powerless now 'cause you feel like that person has gained authority over you because they're not giving in-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly
- SPSpeaker
... to, to what you want. Like, why, why are we so driven to not walk away from arguments even though deep down we know that that's how we gain respect, authority, value through somebody else's eyes has been, is by knowing when to walk away?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. A- absolutely. Yeah, what's, what's worth your time? Uh, and, and exactly right. You can s- you can shoot that text that you thought was a zinger, right? You thought you just sent that zinger of a text, and then they don't respond to it. And all of a sudden, when five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes go by, it feels less and less like a zinger and more and more like you're wearing, you know, the dummy hat of like, "Why did I send that? Ah, this doesn't ma-..." And now you're frustrated. Now you realize, "Oh, they just have full control over my emotions. Now I feel like I'm, you know, I, I'm not anywhere where I need to be." You know, all the meanwhile, they look like they're calm, cool, and the bigger person.
- SPSpeaker
And do you think that's, like, an ego thing that, like, people, they just, they, their ego gets in the way, their, their self-esteem gets in the way, and that's why they feel they just can't walk away? And they, and they feel that if they're not winning this argument or being, quote unquote, "right," that it's just a reflection of how they feel about themselves.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's part of it. I think it's part of a bigger picture. Uh, it has a lot to do with your upbringing, I think, and just what you saw as conflict. It's... Some people... You know, I grew up in homes, like my house, my parents didn't really argue in front of us. They went in another room, you know, if they needed to have some words. There are other people who had it all out right there in the open. Didn't matter where they were. It could be at a restaurant, it could be at the house, it could be in front of other kids. So, conflict looks different to other people, and they've... Some people have grown up in that very toxic argument behavior where they do say the terrible things, where they, they understand the really bad arguments as a process of feelings or to get it out. And so it's, it's, it's relative really to, to how they grew up. So ego is part of it, but, uh, a lot I think too is what they learned and imitated to see as their measure of this is how to handle conflict. They, they weren't taught or equipped better ways.
Episode duration: 1:35:41
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Transcript of episode ci7TYNiPJ1U
