How to Stay Calm, Confident, and In Control... No Matter Who You’re Talking To | Jefferson Fisher

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 All right, let's be honest. There are people out there right now you don't like. They come to mind immediately, and the truth is there are also other people that don't really like you. But how do you communicate with these people when you have to be with them at work or around the house or in your community? How do you talk to them? This episode is all about how to talk to somebody who doesn't like you. All that and more coming up. I'm not exempt from this, by the way, the whole people not liking you thing. There are people that I can think right now come to mind that I don't like, and I know that there are people listening, maybe probably not listening, but maybe some, that don't like me, and that's okay. That's normal because we're not meant to be for everybody, right? There are people in your life that if you were for everybody, you're kind of probably doing something wrong. There's going to be somebody who isn't a fan of what you're doing. That's, that's kind of a good sign in my, in my world, if somebody is not always a fan of what you're doing, 'cause it means that you're,

Jefferson Fisher 1:01 you're on the right track. You're pushing, you're persevering. Not everybody has to agree with what you're doing. That's my, that's my point. How do you handle it? How do you handle it? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you or you don't like them? You ready? Number one, treat them like they like you. Talk to them like they like you. I know that sounds counterintuitive. That's the point. There are people that when you come into the room and you know good and well they don't like you, what they're looking for is even more reasons not to like you. But when you start treating them just as normal as can be, like nothing ever happened in the past, it's going to not only bother them, which is pretty cool, it's c- it's also going to kinda go, "Huh, wait, this is not, this is not what I thought." And sometimes they'll actually feel bad that they even h- ever had the impression that they didn't like you. It could work either way. The point is, don't give someone a reason to not like you because that, that pulls down your inc- integrity. You be you is my point. You be you. Don't worry about if they like you or don't like you. So treat them in conversation just as pleasant as I'm talking to you now. Big disclaimer here. You ready? Big disclaimer. This is not about being fake. What I'm not telling you is to be fake and pretend that everything's fine. That's not it. I can be cordial with you. I can be kind, I can be polite, I can be respectful without ever having to do anything with whether I like this person, prefer this person, I'm a fan of this person or not. You just be you. All right? That's all that is. So if somebody's acting like they don't like you, treat them even more so like they like you. Don't worry about what they're doing. You concentrate on what you're doing, right? And here's the key. Here's the key takeaway, and this is probably one of my favorite points, is if they don't like you, they're not that important. Most likely, they're not that important. If they genuinely don't like you, they're not that important. Why? Because they don't... That means they don't know you well enough. They're not in a place where they can really hold any kind of judgment of you that's, that's really gonna weigh on you. So what do you do? Number one, treat them like they like you. What happens when you're around somebody and you know you don't really like them and they don't really like you, and you decide to kinda shift or shirk them off or act a certain way? All it does is double down on their decision not to like you. All it does is in their mind, they're going, "Oh, I knew I didn't like this person," because they're, they're... All they're doing is looking for ways to justify, validate, imprint that impression in their mind of that they don't like you. So when you turn the tables and you act pleasant, respectful, you be you, that messes with their head, and they go, "Huh, okay, maybe that wasn't the, the ri- the right impression that I was supposed

Jefferson Fisher 4:02 to have. Maybe that wasn't the right impression I was supposed to have." Number two, if you can't do that, if you go, "No, Jefferson, look, I like you, man, but no, I'm not, I'm not doing that," here's what I want you to do. Go neutral. Just go flat. That means I want you to use neutral statements. When you're talking to them and you don't want the conversation to go anywhere, use words that are stop to the conversation that you can't do anything with. These are neutral words like got it, noted, understood, yep, interesting, words that nobody can... You can't continue to take those words and go anywhere. So stay neutral in the conversation. If, if you really can't be at a place where you can be pleasant around this person, if you, if you're really deciding that you're just gonna go sour, which I get it, we're, we're, we're normal and human, at least try to go neutral, where there's nothing negative you're gonna be doing, there's nothing positive you're gonna be doing. So use statements that keep the conversation neutral. You're not inflaming anything. You're going to use statements they really can't do anything with. So if they talk to you, instead of having this attitude or making things worse or just confirming their belief for whatever reason that they don't like you or you don't like them, it's got it, noted, thank you, understood, appreciate it. You see how I'm not even using full sentences? It's not I appreciate that. It's appreciate it. Cool? Using

Jefferson Fisher 5:35 very shortened versions that are very neutral, very flat. Nobody can do anything with them. Number three, keep the sarcasm, the snarkiness at home. All right? Instead, stick to facts. If it's somebody who's does not like you, instead of reinforcing and embolding that, emboldening that decision of them... I think that's a word, emboldening. Let's say it is. You get my point. Instead of that, just stick to facts. Here's what I mean. Let's say you're in an office at a meeting, and somebody comes in, and you know you don't really like them, they don't really like you, and they ask a question, and they're like, "What did I miss?" And you say, "Well, I mean, if you were here, you would know." That's sarcasm. That does nothing but to make you feel better, and it's going to make them dislike you even more. Where you come in and, and you go, "Well, I mean, it would be nice if somebody did..." or, "Well, if you were around," or, "If you really cared, you'd find out..." These passive-aggressive comments, stop that. So just empty out the passive-aggressive comments. They don't do anything. I know in that moment, because you kind of want to jab them, right? You want to go, "Mm. Yeah, I know you don't like me, so let me just poke you in the eye with this stick." Don't, don't, don't do that. All right? Keep that home. Instead, just stick to facts, facts as reasons why you're here and why you're going to leave at some certain future. So let's say instead, if they ask for the time, you're just going to give the time. Don't give the snarkiness. If you come in, say, "I'm here to discuss this," or, "I need to talk to you about Y." There's not a, "Okay, well, I, I got to talk to you, and I, I guess, um, okay, I guess we're doing this. Um, so, uh, here's the thing." Get rid of all that. Get rid of all of it. It's not serving you. It's not making you a better person. Instead, just stick

Jefferson Fisher 7:36 neutral to the facts. There's so much in this because it's natural for us to not like people. Again, if they don't like you, they're not that important, and that's okay. And I, I can get down with the idea of if you don't have somebody who's rooting against you, it means you're not going towards something important enough. Like, if you don't have... If, if, if you're not chasing something, maybe it's a business that you're building, maybe it's a content that you're trying to create. If you have people that are the naysayers, the people that are, uh, doubting you, then typically it means, in my mind, your goals aren't big enough. Yeah, you need to reach for these goals that are so big and you feel like you're doing something so important that of course you're gonna have people who are on the other side of it. It's, it's, it's a healthy, it's a healthy thing. I know it's hard to kind of think in that mindset, but that's, that's at least my outlook, means if, if you don't have people that are naysaying, it's, it's because your goals aren't, aren't big enough. Now, there are gonna be people out there that aren't gonna be fans of you just for whatever reason. It doesn't matter. Typically, they're jealous. Typically, they, they have some kind of preconceived notion. They, they gossip about you behind your back. And we've addressed a lot of these topics in the podcast, in the podcast episodes to come. But the point here is, don't give somebody a reason to not like you just because you can. Don't allow them to change who you are. Don't allow them to lower your character or your integrity because of some preconceived notion. And, and here's this other truth. You ready? Opinions change. There are people that I used to not like, and now I'm like, "You know what? That was kind of dumb of me back then. I, I actually like this person." Or vice versa, and, and it flips. You think somebody's great, and you realize, "Ah, I, I got to know them, and I'm kind of empty inside. I don't, I don't agree. This doesn't match and align with my values anymore." People change. My guess, if you're listening right now, there's somebody that you aren't really a fan of and, and then now you're like, "I kind of like this person." It goes the same thing with siblings. You grow up with siblings. Like, I know two sisters who hated each other, and now they're like the best of friends. It happens. Coworkers, you're like, "Ah, I'm not really a fan of them." At the end, you're, you're great. Why? Because time changes things. Always keep your head above the water. Operate a frequency that says, "I'm gonna be true to me regardless of what anybody else is going to do." So what do you do? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you? Number one, act like they do. Treat them like they like you. Talk exactly like they like you. Why? Because that is your choice, and you're not allowing their, your pers- preconceived notion of what they think about you to control any of your behavior. Are you with me? Good. Two, if you can't do that, keep your emotions in a vacuum. That means you're going to use neutral, flat statements that don't do anything, like, "Thanks. Got it. Understood." It's not the best, but at least

Jefferson Fisher 10:38 it's gonna keep you flat. Number three, keep all the passive-aggressive, sarcastic comments at home, things that are gonna flare it up. Leave that alone. Instead, just operate on the facts. Why you're there, what you need to talk about, get in, get out, get safe. And keep in mind, opinions always change. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Timeline. When we talk about aging well or healthy aging, we usually first start talking about diet or sleep or exercise, and those are all great. But we can also continue to look down at the cellular level. If you remember mitochondria, remember the powerhouse of the cell? Well, it's true. They store cell energy. And as we get older, those cells don't deliver that energy nearly as efficiently. They get damaged. They get old. They get tired. Well, that's why I take Mitopure from Timeline. It supports something called mitophagy, which is your body's natural process for clearing out damaged mitochondria so your cells can produce energy more efficiently. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health in human clinical studies, and people saw improvements in muscular strength and energy without changing their routine. So for me, this is about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as I continue to age. And they come in these flavors that are delicious. I only took two and then realized on the bottle I could take four, so I started taking four because they're just that delicious. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at new lower price. You can go to Mitopure now. Starts at $79 when you go to timeline.com/JEFFERSON. Go to timeline.com/JEFFERSON to learn more. And now let's keep going.

Speaker 12:17 How do you communicate your worth? When someone is being offensive or adding little digs underneath their language, maybe they're trying to get a message across, um, and they're frustrated so they're saying a few things that would be offensive to you potentially or maybe hurt you or maybe kind of put you beneath.

Jefferson Fisher 12:38 Yeah.

Speaker 12:38 How do you create a boundary consciously with them so that they don't keep doing that in the future? Where it's letting them know, "Hey, this, this type of communication doesn't really work for me. It's not okay," and, and owning your worth.

Jefferson Fisher 12:52 Yeah.

Speaker 12:53 While also being able to throw it away at the same time and not let it get to you. Like, how do you navigate that so that they d- that doesn't continue to happen in friendships or-

Jefferson Fisher 13:04 Yeah

Speaker 13:04 ... in relationships or in career-

Jefferson Fisher 13:06 Right

Speaker 13:07 ... where that doesn't continue? Like, I understand we can do it once or twice-

Jefferson Fisher 13:11 Yeah

Speaker 13:11 ... or three times, but if someone's always doing that to us-

Jefferson Fisher 13:14 Right

Speaker 13:14 ... how do we create, create that boundary and, and consciously communicate our worth?

Jefferson Fisher 13:18 Depending on the context about who that person is, you know, who, who they are in your life. Some, some people you just can't get away from, I mean, or family members, what have you. But it's a balance of your value and then wh- what we're gonna just call as what I'm interested in. So if somebody were gonna say something that's offensive in a way and they're, they are pushing me, it's a much more powerful move and very dominant, assertive move to say, "I'm not interested in returning what you just gave."

Speaker 13:51 Oh, wow. That's a, that's a power move.

Jefferson Fisher 13:52 Yeah. Oh, yeah. And see, it's ...

Speaker 13:55 So if I say, "Jefferson, you know, it was pretty idiotic what you did the other day to me, and I, I just didn't, you know."

Jefferson Fisher 14:03 Yeah.

Speaker 14:03 "You just looked like an idiot, but I, what I really wanna do is, is I want, moving forward, I want us to go and do this thing instead."

Jefferson Fisher 14:09 Right.

Speaker 14:10 Or whatever. I'm just saying something.

Jefferson Fisher 14:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you. Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 14:12 How would you respond to something like, like that?

Jefferson Fisher 14:15 So if somebody... Well, what you kinda did was you, you like hit it into something else that they did. So what I f- I would first do is call that out.

Speaker 14:27 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 14:27 Say, "Well, I, I, well, I hear two points."

Speaker 14:31 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 14:31 Yeah. And so I'm like, "I'm not gonna skip that." So I'll say-

Speaker 14:34 Okay. So you wanna, you wanna just throw the trash away right away.

Jefferson Fisher 14:36 You got it. Well-

Speaker 14:37 You wanna address it

Jefferson Fisher 14:37 ... well, because they're trying to hide the trash in the good.

Speaker 14:41 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 14:41 And so I, my response is, "Well, I see two different things." So that first point, I don't have an interest in responding to whatever, or I'm gonna say, "Well, maybe I did look like an idiot, but I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be holding on to whatever message you're trying to-

Speaker 14:58 Right

Jefferson Fisher 14:59 ... to send to me." But it, it's a, it's much more a dominant move to say, "I have no interest in returning what you're sending."

Speaker 15:06 Right. I have no interest in calling you what I saw yesterday you do, or something like that. I mean-

Jefferson Fisher 15:12 You got it. It... But if you use the phrase, "I have no interest," I have no interest in, in talking about your opinion of my performance.

Speaker 15:21 Oh, interesting.

Jefferson Fisher 15:22 You know what I mean? Like, it's... I- obviously that's not something you wanna start off with 'cause that could sound, that could sound defensive. That can sound issues. But the point of it is when you say, "I have no interest," you're letting them know like, "I don't have an... Uh, it's like you're saying that as you're doing the trash can thing. I really don't have an interest in, you know, this, this kind of food. It's not great for me. Doesn't really settle well with me. But what does taste good of what you said, you know, about X, Y, and Z." And so you kinda imagine those words as part of... Let's say it's kind of, you know, your diet. Sorry, I'm a little lactose intolerant, but-

Speaker 15:56 Right

Jefferson Fisher 15:56 ... so let's, let's skip the milk and talk about something else.

Jefferson Fisher 16:00 If you want to talk to someone you completely disagree with, here's what I want you to do. We're gonna get right to it. Number one: don't argue the opinion, identify the need. Identify the need. Number two: shift from proving to understanding. And number three: water your own garden. Don't waste your water trying to water their bad seeds. All right? Water yours, and they'll get curious why yours is doing so well. Water your own garden. We're gonna go into depth on those. Number one: don't argue the opinion, identify the need. Let's go deeper on that. What does that mean? So many times in conversation you are... Let's say you're at the dinner table and you have family members, uh, in-laws, whatever it is, and somebody brings something up, and there's all of a sudden that tension in the room. They go, "Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. He... They just, they went there. Uh, they're, they s- they talked about it. They talked about that candidate. They talked about that platform, that opinion, that, that whatever it is." Maybe you think it's an old mindset, it's an out-of-date mindset. It's a, um, it's, it's not a nice, uh, it's not good to bring up. It's, it's not couth. Whatever it is, it's gonna bring you tension, right? And the, what you wanna do is start arguing the opinion. You're arguing the very top, the i- tip of the iceberg. We get caught in trying to argue somebody's opinion. If they were to say, "Well, I believe that so-and-so is the best for this," or they obviously, "This issue in our country is the worst it's ever been," and you wanna argue, "N- no, it's not. Actually, we need this," and you have this different opinion, you're just talking about the tip of the iceberg. But what breaks that down is that you're never going to get them to come your way, and you're never gonna get to theirs. You don't have to share their opinion to have a valuable conversation. What you have to do first is identify the need. The tip of the iceberg, what's the bottom of it, is the need, and it usually has to do with safety or control or fear, typically fear of change. And if you don't, if you choose not to hear their words as, "God, I cannot believe they wanna vote for that person," instead you hear it as They're afraid of change. They have a fear of this. They have a fear of that. It was told to me once that nobody says anything for the purpose of being wrong. Nobody has an opinion, gives an opinion for the purpose of being wrong. Even the people who begin with, "You know, I could be wrong about this," they never think they're wrong about it, do they? No, they always think that they're right. And if you go from that mindset, instead of looking at the tip of the iceberg, instead of the tops of the trees, you're looking at the roots of what is the need. It's their need for safety for people around them, for their own safety. Usually, it is all based in fear in that. Or what their value is and how for kids or for their life or how people should do and, and, and live and things that really sh- sh- have no effect on them whatsoever, but yet they've decided they're gonna have a big opinion on it right now. What you're hearing is fear of change. Things should be better. They were always better back in the day. If it was just how it was back when I was a kid. It's always the fear of change. This is never a topic that's going to expire. So how do you talk to somebody you're never gonna agree with at a- any level? Don't argue the opinion. That's gonna go nowhere. Instead, identify the need. What does that sound like, Jefferson? What does that sound like? It sounds like you saying, "Hey, I, I agree this is worth talking about. I... You know what? I, I can hear that you really care about the safety of this. I can hear you, you, uh, you don't want things to, to change." Or maybe it's as simple as, "I hear that safety's a big thing for you. I hear that this political ideal is important to you. I hear how, uh, the future of this country is important to you." How you begin to simply acknowledge the need rather than arguing the opinion. Another one, "It sounds like you really care about this. It sounds like you really care about this." And you know what they're gonna say? "Yeah. Yeah, I really do." And all of a sudden, you're gonna start to break down that it's, it's a deeply rooted need that they have, typically for control. That's, that's what you're hearing. Don't argue the opinion. Don't even address that. Instead, identify the need. Ways that I even like to... I explain that is I might say, "I agree," but I go macro, not micro. So I might say, "I agree this is worth talking about. I, I agree that's one way to look at it. I agree that's an opinion." Or I might say, "That's helpful to know. That's... Well, you know what? That's helpful to know." Or I might thank them. "Hey, well, thank you for sharing that." You see how I'm not having to agree with anything that they said? I'm just acknowledging the need that they have, that is deeply rooted need. If you only respond to the opinion, they will argue you forever. If you only disagree or argue the opinion, they will

Jefferson Fisher 21:34 push it forever. I can promise you, that is a conversation at the dinner table that will last months, if not years, if you continue to push on that. But if you identify and s- discuss and talk about the need, the issue underneath, you can actually make progress. You can actually make progress. That's where you want to go. Number two, be more interested in understanding rather than proving. Proving is this mindset of, "No, you have to agree with me. No, I have to make you understand my way. You know what? I, I can't even... I, I can't even wrap my m- mind around how you could possibly think this. Are you kidding me? You actually think..." Is that ever gonna make anybody agree with you? Whenever you come on the offensive to prove something, where you go, "Are, are you kidding me? Do you really believe this?" It... The more you tell somebody they're wrong, the more convinced they are that they're right, where they all of a sudden clam up and go, "Well, I'm not gonna share my opinion with you. This is what I believe. So? I don't care." Evidence doesn't work. Facts don't work. Why? Because you're only hitting the opinion. You're not identifying the need, like we talked about in number one. So what do you do instead of trying to push, push, push, and prove, prove, prove? 'Cause you know what that feels like. What does that do? That makes you harden even more. Instead, ask questions that help open up understanding. These are not questions that begin with why. That will kill it instantly. "Well, why do you think that? Why do you believe that?" Uh, yeah, okay, w- w- what about anything that challenges the why to make them explain in a defensive posture? But if I begin with what, how, when, where, those are what they call open-ended questions. Open-ended questions. So if I were to say, "How long have you felt this, this way?" "Oh, well, you know what? I've, I felt this the first time in..." "Oh, what, what happened there? Where, where did you hear this?" It... You hear how I'm not going, "Yeah, right. Well, okay, y- explain to me how X, Y, and Z" That's gonna clam up, right? But if I were to say, "Where did you... Where'd you learn this? How long have you felt that way?" And I'm actually interested in understanding, they will explain to you more. And what's gonna happen in that thread, you're gonna go, "Ha." Okay, there's the, the need of something that happened to them probably that they just believe. And sometimes, e- especially I would say in the political area, you, you see all this stuff where they, like, they interview people on the street, right? And they try and catch them on something, and they might mention something of a different political candidate, and all of a sudden, the, the person who's being interviewed is talking like they know, and it's actually inaccurate information. It's because people have opinions that are based on feelings, based on the inner needs, not typically based on facts. So that's why evidence doesn't work. Proving to them, saying, "Look at this piece of paper. How could you possibly... Look at this report that came out," that doesn't work because it doesn't address the inner need within. So when you ask the opening questions to get them to open up to you [laughs] and help you understand, it helps identify the need, and it makes them feel acknowledged, it deescalates the situation, and it helps have a productive conversation that actually moves rather than just creating a big mess where somebody has to get up from the table and

Jefferson Fisher 25:06 walk away because, "You know what? I'm over this. You're never gonna change." Number three: water your own garden. Water your own garden. I w- I, I love this illustration in my mind because so much peace can be had. If, if you're somebody who gardens, you know what kind of peace that brings up. We've had gardens, um, and it is... You tend to it. You pay attention to it. You protect it and you water it. And so much of conversation is understanding I can only tell it to you. I can't understand it for you. So what I'm going to do is I'm gonna water my own garden, meaning I'm gonna make sure my people are protected. By protecting my peace, I also protect my people, the people who care about me, the people that need me in the right state of mind, who n- who need me to be present. If I am so worked up about an opinion of yours that ha- that will have no impact on my life whatsoever at this meal or at this gathering, right? I'm, I'm... I've lost sight of the fact that I have a beautiful garden. If I start arguing against your opinion, what I do is I get my water hose and I'm... all of a sudden, I'm trying to water yours. When they've planted bad seed, y- what's that gonna grow? It's gonna grow thorns. It's gonna grow animosity. It's gonna grow contempt. And all of a sudden, what could have been a five-minute conversation of acknowledging the differences, there is now five years of estrangement. That's what happens. That's how quick it happens. When you understand that they can have their own opinion and have their garden, l- let them have it and you have yours. So you can hear conversations from them and say, "You know what? I'm not trying to change your mind," or, "You know what? I'm... I know I'm not gonna change your mind. I just wanna hear what you have to say," or, "I appreciate what you're sharing. I know we're not gonna see the eye to eye on this, but, uh, you know what we do make eye to eye on?" Whatever topic that you know that you agree on. Choosing when to go into that conversation, knowing when to get out of it. Usually, we just get very stubborn. We get really stubborn, and we try to go to number two and we just prove, prove, prove, prove, and that does nothing. So remember when it comes to watering your own garden, that there will be an end to the conversation, and there certainly can be a place for meaningful dialogue. What I playfully like to say is if somebody's trying to have some kind of conversation with me, whether it's, it's... If it's something I know I disagree with, I might easily say, "You know what? I'd rather hear about you." They ask me a question that's kind of s- sent to tee me up. It's me saying, "Well, I'd rather hear about you." Nobody gets mad if I suggest talking about themselves. I've never had that once. They go, "Oh." They kind of laugh as if like, "All right. I, I understand we're not gonna go there." And sometimes, you know, even like, um, my grandparent, my grandfather, you know, he will try and spark these arguments just for fun. They can get me really worked up and it d- doesn't bother him at all. Maybe you can relate to that, and it's me having to choose to just water my own garden. I love him. I'll always love him. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that he says. Okay. What do we got? Number one: don't argue the opinion. Identify the need. Go deeper. Number two: instead of talking to prove, talk and respond to understand.

Jefferson Fisher 28:40 Again, we're going layer to layer to layer. And number three: water your own garden. Protect your own peace. D- don't be walking over and start trying to pick their weeds. All right? Water your own garden. That's the key to a lot of peace in your life. Have you ever been talking out loud and while you're talking somebody says, "Well, you know what I think is..." and they just run right over you? What's the first thing you think? You go, "Oh, okay. I guess I'll stop talking now." All of a sudden they are controlling the floor. Now they're dominating the conversation, and you really don't have another window, and you feel defeated. What do you do when somebody is talking over you? Well, there's a wrong way to go about it and a right way to go about it, and I'm gonna teach you both. Now, if you listen to the rest of this podcast, you are going to learn exactly how to stop it when somebody tries to dominate the conversation. You ready? The wrong way to go about this is when you start to yell and start to try and get more attention to you. Somebody starts interrupting you, and the first thing you say is, "Oh, excuse me. Am I interrupting you?" Or, "Oh, uh, uh, is the end of m- my sentence interrupt the beginning of yours?" That kind of trying to be cute language, that never works. Let me tell you why it doesn't work: because it makes you look desperate. So whenever somebody is dominating the conversation and interrupts you, the worst thing you can try and do is try to take it back from them, when you try to out-attention them. That never works. It always puts you in the weaker position. Why? Because it looks like you're grasping for control. That is the wrong way to go about it. Instead, this is what I want you to do when somebody tries to dominate the conversation and talk over you. You ready? Number one: I want you to continue talking exactly as you were. Keep the same volume, keep the same tempo, keep the same pace. Keep talking just like you were. Do not stop. So when everybody... Whenever that person at the board meeting and y- uh, wherever you are, they start to try and- catch in and start and talk over you. "Oh, I think..." "Well, what about..." And they, and they try and talk over you. Keep talking exactly where you are. This works because it shows a discrepancy between your very even-keel, controlled, "I'm gonna continue talking no matter what you say. Even if you interrupt me, I am planted. I am grounded. I do not care what you say." Whenever you keep that same plane and they are just yeah, yeah, yeah, barking way up here trying to get your attention, trying to get everybody else's attention, it shows that discrepancy of you being very controlled and them trying to grasp for control. They're trying to get that attention from everybody else while you are the one staying calm and controlled. So number one is continue to talk. Don't stop talking. All right? Number two, what I want you to do is resist the temptation to raise your voice. We always want to try and outtalk the other person whenever somebody starts raising their voice. It's very natural. It's very easy for us because we're trying to kind of, uh, jump over them. We're trying to... It's like playing checkers. You wanna kinda jump over them. You wanna get on top of the conversation. You want to dominate it in some way. Anytime you do that, all it does is escalate them to talk even more. That's how shouting matches happen. Like if you, uh, watch the news and you see the talking heads on the news and the people that are just fighting, just arguing to argue, or if you watch, like, sports commentary, maybe on ESPN or something, and, and you hear people taking two different positions and somebody's interrupting the other, and somebody's interrupting the other, and they just start kinda yelling back and forth. Who's listening? Nobody. What do you do? You change the channel. Nobody's learning anything. Nobody can get anything from that because it's just a power grab for attention. So you're going to resist that. All right? You're going to resist that by continuing to keep your volume exactly as it is. Why? Again, it shows that discrepancy. That's what you want. Number three, we're just swinging right at it today. We're going, we're going straight for the throat. Any time that that person is trying to dominate the conversation or interrupt or continue talking and you don't feel like you have a window. Let's say we're at a, a board meeting, and they're just continuing to talk, and you don't feel like you have a window into it. Here's the key. Use their name. People love to hear their name. There's no sweeter sound than the sound of their own name. So if they're talking, and they're droning on, and they've kinda taken away the conversation and gone on with their own voice and with their own subject, and they think what they're saying is the most important thing, I want you to use their name. Use their name. So let's say it's me. Let's me... I, I'm the big bad guy right now, and I am... I've just taken over the conversation. You're talking to me, and I go, [laughs] "Well, you know what I think is you, you ought to go... You know what you should do..." And I just start going on away in my own views, opinions, and I'm talking to an audience of one. If you need to get my attention, what I want you to say is, "Jefferson." That'll pop my head quick. "Jefferson." It's not raising your voice. You're not saying it angry. You're not saying it too d- um, [clicks tongue] tender, almost too hesitant. You're gonna say it strong. You're gonna say it clear. "Jefferson." If I keep talking, say it again. "Jefferson." Even if you need to raise the volume a little bit, it's gonna get my attention. It's going to get the other person's attention. They are going to stop because they hear their name. That's where-- That's the window. You've now created the window into that conversation where I want you to use the phrase talk over. Say something like, "It's not helpful when you talk over me," or, "I feel like you're talking over me," or, "I can't hear you when you talk over me." I say the very similar thing when somebody's interrupting you, which in this case is very related. "I can't hear you when you talk over me." Anytime you're using that phrase talk over, it's cluing them in to exactly what they're doing. Sometimes people don't un- understand what they're doing. They don't realize what they're doing. It may be it's not on purpose, but that's beside the point. The, the, the fact is they're doing it, so you have to take action. You can't just be quiet and let them continue to talk and, and you, and you feel less, and y- then you feel more dismissed. That kind of behavior is something that you need to catch immediately. You can't let it keep going on. Why? Because you're otherwise establishing a pattern of how they can treat you, how they can talk to you, that it's just a given that your opinion does not matter as much as theirs. But if you catch it, "Jefferson, I can't hear you when you talk over me. It's not helpful for you to talk over me. Jefferson, are you interested in my thoughts, or do you wanna talk over me?" It depends how direct you need to be. I, I... You're the one who knows the personality of the person that you're dealing with. But that is exactly how I want you to handle when somebody is talking over you. I had something very similar. When I was a young associate at a law firm, there was a, another associate of mine, and she had great ideas, but she never felt like she could really share them in the meetings that we'd have, and we'd have other associate meetings. There'd be about eight to 10 of us, and she didn't feel like she could really use her voice that way. She was much more hesitant, but still, she had wonderful ideas, and there are times where I would kind of focus the conversation to tee it up so she could talk. But at the same time, I didn't always wanna be the crutch that goes, "Oh, she'd..." Let me help guide the conversation to her, so I talked to her about it, said, "This is what I want you to do. The next time David starts to bounce over onto your conversation, I want you to use his name and watch what happens." Sure enough, while she's giving a, an idea of what she thinks we should try and do for the upcoming year, David immediately kinda goes on the attack. You ever had somebody who in a meeting, specifically in a group, that Just wants to always feel like th- they can go right for you. They can go right for you every time. That, uh, for some reason, you're, you're their scapegoat. Uh, for some reason, you're the outlet for them, that they, as soon as you start talking, boom, there they, there they go. Something about it triggers you. Triggers them. It was the same way in this relationship, and so she started talking. Boom, David goes in, and first thing she had said, she did, was continued to talk exactly how she was. What did it do? It didn't make her look weak. It made him look weak because looked like he was trying to get in in the conversation and she was totally ignoring it. Who we listened to? We started listening to her, not him because it showed everybody in the room what he was doing was not ac- acceptable as a group, as a community. He was now making himself kind of as the outsider. What she did next as he continues to talk is she used his name. She used his name and he snapped to attention. "David, you're talking over me." That's all she said. You know what he did? Immediately apologized. Why? Because he's looking around and seeing everybody kind of agrees. Nobody was fighting. Nobody was sticking up for him. He's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm, you know what? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go, go ahead." Never again did he do that. So I want you to really think about this. The next time that somebody is trying to dominate a conversation, some- somebody's trying to speak over you, number one, what I want you to do is to continue to talk. Two, resist the temptation to raise your voice to outtalk them because that's a weaker position ultimately. Three, what I want to make sure that you do is realize the power of somebody's name. So if they keep on talking, use their name. It is going to snap their attention. It's gonna make them stop because they need to hear what comes after their name, why you're using the sweet sound of their name. That's your window to be able to communicate exactly what's happening into action. All right? Sound good? I love this kind of stuff. It's awesome. Quick, to the point. You can do it. I know that you can.

Speaker 38:45 You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.

Jefferson Fisher 38:50 Yeah.

Speaker 38:51 That's brilliant.

Jefferson Fisher 38:52 [laughs] Thank you. It is a, a mindset of instead of the default where somebody is engaging an opinion with you, and we're opinion-making machines.

Speaker 39:02 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 39:03 Something happens in the world, where, where does everybody turn to? Social media to share their opinion.

Speaker 39:09 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 39:09 To who? Their audience of six people that, you know, are on their F- Facebook or something. And they, uh, a- and they go and they flood all the comments of how much they agree, they disagree and who's attacking who and who's a snowflake and who's the whatever and that kind of behavior solves, is nothing. In effect, it's very draining. In effect, if we wanna say that's a symptom of a very bad health, uh, you know, a lot of the times those kind of people are, are unhealthy. Not just physically, but mentally un- unwell. All right? So if you want to make sure that you stop attending every argument you're invited to, you need to understand that there's a priority of what's important in your life. There are people that disagree with you and there are people who maybe don't even like you. Most likely if they don't like you, they're not that important. You know? H- who, who do you wanna keep in your life?

Speaker 40:03 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:04 Yeah, who, who do you wanna surround yourself with? And I feel like any time somebody gives you an invitation to an argument we go, "Oh, yep. Absolutely. Check yes. I will be attending." And that's a, that's a one-way ticket to, um, bad health.

Speaker 40:18 It, it comes down to emotional awareness, self-awareness, emotional regulation-

Jefferson Fisher 40:21 Yeah

Speaker 40:21 ... doesn't it? Because when you are more self-aware and emotionally regulated, I think it becomes easier to not attend every argument. When your nervous system is in high alert, when you've been busy with work all day, you didn't take a lunch break, you're in sort of that stress mode-

Jefferson Fisher 40:43 Yeah

Speaker 40:44 ... it's sometimes harder to separate.

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 Right.

Speaker 40:47 And I think sometimes fear is also what gets in the way of many things in our life, but also our ability to communicate well, right? And I think the more we're better to emotionally regulate, the more better able we are to go, "Hey, you know what? I don't, I don't wanna get involved with that."

Jefferson Fisher 41:04 Yeah.

Speaker 41:04 You know? Uh, something I've learnt being online sharing information for about 12 years now is I don't have to have an opinion on everything.

Jefferson Fisher 41:14 [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 41:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 41:16 And, or, or you can have an opinion and not share it.

Speaker 41:18 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 41:18 [laughs]

Speaker 41:18 I certainly don't need to have a public opinion on everything.

Jefferson Fisher 41:20 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 41:20 Now, people can expect me to.

Jefferson Fisher 41:22 Mm-hmm. Right.

Speaker 41:23 I should be commenting on this event. Great. No problem. I don't think I should.

Jefferson Fisher 41:29 Right.

Speaker 41:30 I don't want to and ultimately, so to me what I, what I will and what I won't communicate on-

Jefferson Fisher 41:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 41:34 ... right, it's kind of interesting. What have you learnt, right? So this is interesting. You were already an exceptional communicator. You started sharing things online in 2022, so about three years or so. You've had a lot of experience with comments on-

Jefferson Fisher 41:49 [laughs]

Speaker 41:49 ... social media.

Jefferson Fisher 41:50 Yeah.

Speaker 41:50 So what, what has being on social media and reading comments sections taught you about other human beings?

Jefferson Fisher 42:01 You know, I, I'll tell you I'm blessed with a wonderful audience. I, I can probably count on one hand truly the amount of times I've had a, a negative troll type of just nasty-

Speaker 42:15 How wonderful

Jefferson Fisher 42:15 ... comment which is just wonderful. And most of the time they're, they're bots. You know, they're not, they're not real. Um, but what I have seen, of course because I'm on social media like you are, I've seen people leave negative horrible comments in YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, you, you name it where the quick little clap back that's ugly maybe on somebody's weight, appearance, looks, what they said and it gets a lot of likes. Like a crazy-

Speaker 42:51 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 42:51 ... amount of likes because there's this anonymity- Of being behind the keyboard. And you almost in some sense get rewarded for it. When somebody is liking your comment, what are you encouraged to do? Say more ugly things-

Speaker 43:07 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 43:08 ... to get more like and appreciation and, uh, that, that, that dopamine hit of you're, you're doing something well. So what I have seen is that people in comments can be ... I've seen it both ways. I've seen the negative side of it, and it's detrimental. I've also seen the very positive side of people can create a community in the comments. And you take something like TikTok, for example, sometimes the comments are more entertaining than the actual content-

Speaker 43:36 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 43:36 ... itself. People immediately, what they would say, run to the comments because there's so much interaction or things that are funny. People are hilarious.

Speaker 43:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 43:45 I mean, I'd ... One thing about social media is that there's so many talented people and so many funny people that you would never know.

Speaker 43:52 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 43:52 That, you know, they're total, totally, um, total introverts, but they're funny and creative and things you would never be able to see in the, the world and environment that you're, that you're in. So I've been blessed with being able to see the positive. I've been blessed with being able to see the, the negative of it in, in social media. And I, I find ... I mean, I'm certainly a product of it. I wouldn't be here with you today-

Speaker 44:16 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 44:16 ... had people not resonated with the, the content that I make.

Speaker 44:21 I would bet that one of the reasons you don't get many negative comments is because of your energy.

Jefferson Fisher 44:28 Mm.

Speaker 44:29 People respond to energy. They, they do. You know, we all respond to energy and the vibe of the people around us. And so if you're putting out content with a really warm, compassionate, grounded energy with a real desire to help people-

Jefferson Fisher 44:47 Right

Speaker 44:49 ... it's just not gonna lead to that many people, you know, trying to meet that energy with division and-

Jefferson Fisher 44:56 Yes

Speaker 44:56 ... criticism.

Jefferson Fisher 44:57 Right.

Speaker 44:57 Do you know what I mean?

Jefferson Fisher 44:57 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 44:57 Whereas some people, their whole brand is about calling out or-

Jefferson Fisher 45:01 Yes

Speaker 45:01 ... this is what's toxic or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 45:03 The drama, whatever it is. Yeah.

Speaker 45:04 Yeah. So of course that energy is gonna attract more energy like that-

Jefferson Fisher 45:07 Right

Speaker 45:08 ... which is super interesting. I mean, I also ra- very rarely get negative comments. Um, but I've always had a rule actually, an internal rule with myself, which is ... Which maybe I didn't follow in the early days of being-

Jefferson Fisher 45:21 Mm

Speaker 45:21 ... you know, online sharing information.

Jefferson Fisher 45:23 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 45:23 But I've learnt through the process, which is ... It comes back to some of your teachings in this book, right? Which is, if I'm not feeling calm, do not respond to a comment.

Jefferson Fisher 45:34 Yeah. That's so true. [laughs]

Speaker 45:36 You know?

Jefferson Fisher 45:36 Yeah.

Speaker 45:36 Don't do it.

Jefferson Fisher 45:37 Yeah.

Speaker 45:37 It's never gonna come ... go well.

Jefferson Fisher 45:38 No.

Speaker 45:38 You know? Only respond ... So sometimes it's like I, I think, actually, that's worthy of a response. Like I-

Jefferson Fisher 45:43 Yeah

Speaker 45:43 ... feel that'd be a good to interact with that, but only do it when you're feeling calm. And calm doesn't just mean my internal state. It also means, what's going on in my life?

Jefferson Fisher 45:52 Yes.

Speaker 45:52 Right? It's more important that I'm gonna spend quality time with my children-

Jefferson Fisher 45:58 Yeah

Speaker 45:58 ... or my wife or going round to see my mum.

Jefferson Fisher 46:01 Yes.

Speaker 46:01 Actually, you know what? That is [laughs] more important-

Jefferson Fisher 46:04 So true

Speaker 46:04 ... than a random comment on my Instagram page.

Jefferson Fisher 46:07 Absolutely. And probably the truth is that's one comment out of 200.

Speaker 46:11 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 46:12 You know what I mean? And so you have ... You might have 199 wonderful comments, and we see that one, and we kinda go ... And we wanna comment right there. And, and you know it does nothing. I get questions. I know you get questions of people, "When I post, I get negative comments," and ... or, you know, "How do you handle it?" And I go, "Do you have to?"

Speaker 46:29 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 46:29 "What do you ... What ... " I mean, the algorithm doesn't care if it's happy or sad. It's a comment. At the same time, do you know this person? Are you gonna actually sit down and spend time with this person? W- what's going on in your life?

Speaker 46:41 Well, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 46:41 Yeah.

Speaker 46:41 I, I sort of in, in my, in my last book, uh, Jeff, said Make Change At Last. There's a chapter called Take Less Offense. Okay? I think you'd really enjoy it actually.

Jefferson Fisher 46:50 Yeah.

Speaker 46:51 And, um, in that chapter I make the case that offense is something we choose to do, right? Nothing is inherently offensive, because if it was, we'd all find the same thing offensive.

Jefferson Fisher 47:04 Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 47:05 The fact that we don't means it's not the comment or the thing that was causing the offense, it was something within us that was being activated.

Jefferson Fisher 47:13 Right.

Speaker 47:13 Right? I'm not excusing poor behavior here.

Jefferson Fisher 47:15 Sure.

Speaker 47:15 I'm just saying that nothing is inherently offensive. We're choosing to take offense, right? And I'm ... I sort of also make the case in that chapter that on some level, taking offense is actually or could be argued to be a little bit arrogant. And, and, and the reason I say that is because if you think about it rationally, there's eight billion people on the planet, right? Is it reasonable to believe that every other human being on this planet is gonna have the same view and perspective on the world as I do? No. Right? It's not reasonable at all. Clearly, some people in the world are gonna see the world differently from me.

Jefferson Fisher 47:54 Right.

Speaker 47:54 They're gonna have different ethics, different religion, a different way of being brought up, uh, different levels of trauma. Whatever it might be, they're gonna see the world differently. So they may actually disagree with me on certain things. They may see things completely differently. It doesn't mean that they're wrong and I'm right, or I'm right and they're wrong.

Jefferson Fisher 48:11 Yeah.

Speaker 48:12 It just means they see it differently.

Jefferson Fisher 48:13 Yes.

Speaker 48:13 And I k- and I kind of feel, bringing it back to your book, one of the things I love about it is I think there's a real deep compassion behind the tools-

Jefferson Fisher 48:24 Mm

Speaker 48:24 ... which relates to what I just said, which is you don't know what's going on with that person. You know? What ... The person you see is not always the person you're talking to.

Jefferson Fisher 48:34 Yes.

Speaker 48:34 W- and that's, I think, one of the things I love the most about it.

Jefferson Fisher 48:37 Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right. You choose to take offense to certain things. And I, I'm of the mindset of any time you just hear change, you hear about change, it makes you uncomfortable. You hear about change in the world or somebody having a different political view than you, that's change. You're hearing. It makes you go, "I don't like that." So whenever you find and hear that change that's being communicated to you, and it makes you uncomfortable, that creates a lot of that fear because we like what is safe. We like what is known.

Speaker 49:16 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 49:16 You... Let's say I want to change your mind about something, and you have this political view. Let's say it's a religious view, for example. Uh, and, and I say that as something that's typically very crystallizing as part of somebody's identity. Well, if I just expect in one conversation I'm going to entirely disprove everything that you've ever believed, problems are gonna happen. Because what's most likely is I'm not just saying you're wrong, I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying your grandmother's wrong. I'm saying that thing that you learned when you were a kid and you've known your entire life is all wrong. And people will, will do anything, far past the point of just deciding not to listen to you, in order to preserve what they know.

Speaker 50:01 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 50:02 And it is so easy for people... That's why a lot of the times in a political climate, they're okay with one candidate doing it. They're not okay with another candidate doing it. They're okay if it's the side I am comfortable with. I'm not good with if it's a side I don't agree with. Why? Because we feel comfortable with what we know because it's, comes down from the people that put their value in us, and we will defend the people in our lives that have contributed to that view. So in other words, you can say I'm wrong-

Speaker 50:33 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 50:34 ... but if you're saying my dad's wrong, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't, you don't get to say my dad's wrong. I, I'm the one.

Speaker 50:39 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 50:39 And so we get defensive on behalf of the people that help shape our identity. And so we will do anything to the point of just refusing to listen, even to logic, even to evidence. Even somebody presents you with evidence of saying something of why your position is wrong on it, we will boldface just disagree with it in order to protect the values that we've been raised with.

Speaker 51:03 Yeah. It's a great point. I mean, obviously, you are an American citizen, and, you know, American politics is, uh, very interesting these days.

Jefferson Fisher 51:14 That's a great word.

Speaker 51:15 Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 51:15 Yeah. Let's keep it to that word.

Speaker 51:16 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 51:16 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 51:17 It's very interesting. And I think 12 months ago, the statistic that I came across, uh, was that one in six US adults are not talking to another family member because of a difference of opinion-

Jefferson Fisher 51:33 Yeah

Speaker 51:34 ... over politics.

Jefferson Fisher 51:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 51:35 Which I found utterly remarkable.

Jefferson Fisher 51:37 Right.

Speaker 51:38 Right? And really just speaks to what you just said, right?

Jefferson Fisher 51:41 Yes.

Speaker 51:41 And I guess that in many ways highlights why a book like yours is so important, right? Because it should be possible for two people with completely different religions or completely different political beliefs within the same family, it should be possible to have a conversation with them-

Jefferson Fisher 52:02 Yes

Speaker 52:02 ... and still love them and still respect them. You know, of course, people will argue that there are extremes, there are certain things that people can't get over. Okay, but as a general principle, you should be able to get on with people who see the world differently than you do.

Jefferson Fisher 52:16 Yes.

Speaker 52:17 Which is something you don't see online much. But if I think about even my best mates from university, like, there's four or five of us, and, you know, we're, we'd be there for each other. You know, we could rely on each other for anything.

Jefferson Fisher 52:29 Mm.

Speaker 52:29 Doesn't mean we all see the world the same way.

Jefferson Fisher 52:31 Right.

Speaker 52:32 We, we, you know, we have differences of opinions on things. We're still best mates.

Jefferson Fisher 52:35 Right.

Speaker 52:36 But it seems as though the world, at least online... Well, I say online, it's getting more divided, but that statistic would suggest that actually offline as well-

Jefferson Fisher 52:47 Yeah

Speaker 52:47 ... it's getting more divided as well.

Jefferson Fisher 52:49 Yeah. I, I definitely believe so because we're not allowing real conversation. We, we expect that we can solve all issues in one conversation. In fact, I'll go even more. We feel like we can solve everything and change someone's mind by saying one sentence. And we just think because I said it, well, then they have to wholeheartedly-

Speaker 53:09 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 53:09 ... swallow it, agree with it, take it, and say, "I'm the most amazing genius they've ever heard. Yes, of course, you're right." And that's just never going to-

Speaker 53:16 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 53:16 That's never going to happen. And instead, you have to see that if you want to change someone's mind, you better be ready to have multiple conversations. I'm talking conversations over years. Things that you're gonna have to invest in asking questions and finding out why someone believes what they do. When you actually take the time, rather than fighting, fighting the opinion they have, you take the time to find out why they have it-

Speaker 53:45 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 53:45 ... and how they learned it, and where they picked it up, and when they learned it. All of that information is gonna give you way more knowledge and realize it's not the symptom, it's the cause.

Speaker 53:57 Yeah. Is it even possible to change someone's mind? It's like maybe the goal is never to change someone's mind. Maybe the goal should be to learn.

Jefferson Fisher 54:06 Yeah, I like... Well, I would reframe that. The, yes, you can change one's, someone's mind, but what you said is right. You have to change the goal. Too often, we put the, we put a bar on conversations of, and that bar is, "They have to admit I'm right. They have to say they're wrong."

Speaker 54:25 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 54:27 That is rarely, if ever, going to happen. I can't get my child to say that. I think I'm gonna have someone who's a grown adult say that, who's had a year or, or years, a whole life of experiences?

Speaker 54:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 54:41 And I think just because I uttered sound into the ear, they're automatically just gonna go, "The scales have fallen from my eyes. How wrong I am."

Speaker 54:49 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 54:49 That's not going to happen, right? And so you, you can absolutely change someone's mind, but one, you have to live it. You can't just say it and there be misalignment in how you're, you're living. Two, yes, evidence helps, but sometimes when you're trying to push your opinion, that makes me come closer more. So for example- The more I tell you you're wrong, the more convinced you're going to be that you're right.

Speaker 55:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 55:18 You're, you're gonna protect, you're gonna protect what you know because this is the one thing you feel like you do know, that you're sure about. Why? Because your dad told you about it when you were five, you know? So you will wrap yourself onto that, that memory. So can you change someone's mind? Yes, 100% you, you can. But you cannot do it when you raise the bar as, "I'm right, you're wrong." Instead, I'm telling you to lower the bar.

Speaker 55:43 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 55:43 That's what the book does. It tells you to lower the bar. Instead of saying, "I need to prove that I'm right," my goal is to understand where you're coming from. My goal is to ask more questions than I say things. My goal is to, am I showing appreciation for the time that we're spending in this conversation?

Speaker 56:02 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:02 When you set the bar really low by just making sure you feel understood and they feel understood, or they feel acknowledged, set a bar of, how can I show that I acknowledge them in this conversation?

Speaker 56:12 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:12 That's going to lead to more of what you want, rather than setting that bar that's, uh, um, that you can never meet.

Speaker 56:18 Yeah. Some of what you just said there speaks to one of the other life lessons in the book, which is never win an argument.

Jefferson Fisher 56:25 Yeah.

Speaker 56:25 What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 56:27 Whenever you set out to win an argument, you will lose the relationship over time. If I were to say, do you know anybody in your life who always has to be right? They always have to have the final say. They always have to have the last word. Those kind of people are n- not someone anybody wants to be around. It's typically an audience of one. And the more you try to win and prove, you lower the quality and connection of that relationship. What you've really won is their contempt. Let's say you and I are in an argument. Rather than me trying to understand you, I have to win. Win often sounds like I'm the last one to talk. That's what we typically have in conversations.

Speaker 57:09 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 57:09 The one who says something last is the one who somehow wins. Maybe you said something really ugly because you and I have been personal friends for forever, and I know that one button that I can say that s- speaks right to your insecurity, and all of a sudden, you shut down. Does that mean I win? Probably not, but that's the feeling. Or if you and I are in a conflict of opinion and I'm the one that says, "No, I have to be right," and you go, "You know what? Fine. You're right. You're right," is that really winning? Over time, they're gonna feel contempt for you.

Speaker 57:42 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 57:42 What you really want is to be the first to apologize. And that's, that's kind of the procedure of, of arguments. The person who said the worst thing last, that's typically the one who has to apologize first. What I like to teach is instead of trying to win the argument, you look to unravel them. You find the knots in the conversation and get really quick and really proficient at loosening them.

Speaker 58:07 Why do you think so many people take things personally when they're having a conversation?

Jefferson Fisher 58:16 Our default is to make things about me, make things about I, not so much you. And it's just a shift of perspective-

Speaker 58:27 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 58:27 ... that we make everything, everything about, about us. Like as me, as an, um, a young associate at the law firm, us associates, um, would complain about the partners because the partners don't care. Partners don't listen to us. The part-- All they do is think about themselves. When I made partner, I got a-- Within probably five minutes, I got an email, and I thought, "These associates, all they do is care about themselves."

Speaker 58:56 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 58:56 You know, it's very us versus them-

Speaker 58:58 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 58:58 ... mentality. When you're the employee, you hate the management. When you're the management, you hate the employee. You always find a way to make it about you. It's, it's our default. It's why we take things personally. It's why when you-- If I were to text you, "Okay," you're not gonna be, "Look at that. Look how nice Jefferson is. He said 'okay' in the happiest way possible." Instead, you're gonna go, "Okay. What, what kind of okay is that? Is like a, is that a okay okay? Or is that like a okay?" Like what-- We, we find ways of reading the negative in text

Jefferson Fisher 59:29 and email, any transactional correspondence like that. When we talk about difficult, high-stress conflict, I'm, I'm talking about not just the little bitty everyday arguments. I'm talking about something that's on your plate that's coming up right now, and you go, "Jefferson, I don't know how to handle this. I, I don't know what to do. I, I'm afraid I'm gonna shut down. I'm afraid I'm gonna get nervous." I'm gonna tell you exactly what I tell every single one of my clients. You ready? Number one, it is not what you say. It is not anything to do with your mouth. It has everything to do with your nervous system. And the key here is instead of absorbing, you're observing. I'm gonna say it again. Instead of absorbing, you're observing. If you wanna h- handle conflict at a different level of consciousness that you did not know you could handle it, it is going to be the key of not absorbing what they say, but observing what they say. All right? Say it with me. Say it with me wherever you are. It's not absorbing, it's observing. All right? What does that mean? I want you to think... This is just coming to me right now. I want you to think you're in the grocery store, and you have your, your cart with you, and you're going through, and you... Or maybe, maybe you're somebody who likes a bag. You know? You, you, you have a... I'm, I'm all for environmentally friendly stuff too, though it's hard here in Texas. And you have your cart, and you just start putting things on the shelf, or grabbing things off the shelf and putting it in your basket that you, you don't even want. All right? You don't even want. And things just start to come in. You're like, "Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna take their belittling opinion of me. I'm gonna put it in my cart. You know what? I'm gonna take their side eye, put it in my cart. I'm gonna take that, that disrespectful tone and put that in my cart." And you just keep going all the way through, aisle by aisle, and then you go to checkout. Which is actually a, a very good word for this. Yeah, you, you, you mentally check out. And you know what checks in? Your nervous system, your emotions, and they just flood you in that moment. And, and in, in that point in time, you have absorbed, you have taken on so many things that there's nothing left for you. You're not observing. You're not seeing what's happening. You're just in it. You're just in it, and you are helpless to it. It is no longer you who controls the emotions. The emotions are now controlling you, and there's no telling what you're gonna say. There's no ... That there's no ... Nobody can guess what's gonna come out of your mouth or what's going to happen because you're not there. You are checked out. So when I tell my clients, "Hey, when you're in the chair and somebody is ... the other attorney's asking you questions, there's gonna be a time where all of a sudden you're tempted to go in it, to, to, to go down the spiral and look inside and look at yourself and feel emotions and get heated because you're gonna start taking things personally. You're going to start absorbing what they're saying." No, no, no, no. If you want to handle this the right way, the proper way in conflict, you have to start observing. What does that mean? That means you're going to approach the conversation at a different level of consciousness that you have before. That means instead of going, "How, how could he say that to me? Oh my gosh, I'm..." Uh, and you start holding your breath, and you start getting flustered, and you get nervous, or maybe you tear up. It's because you're not seeing it as, "Huh, I wonder why he's asking me this. I wonder why she's saying that. I wonder where they're going with this." Look for the intent behind the words, the intent behind the words. When you are observing what's happening, in some sense being an attached observer... I've said this before, where y- it's like you are sitting in a movie theater with your popcorn, and you're watching the conversation take place, and that puts you in a different perspective of looking at the person who's talking to you and thinking, "I wonder why that character is saying this. I wonder what the plot is. I wonder what the narrative is. I, I wonder what scene is coming up next." And you see how when you look at it that way, you've have full control. You're now the director, the producer, the screenwriter of exactly what happens next. And then it's just action, and you're able to be in the state of mind of, "Hey, I'm observing the conversation." And from there, that gives you a chance to let your body regulate because you're not in it. You are seeing it. You're seeing the conversation. Number two, what I teach every one of my clients is something that's at the forefront of my book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And rule number one when I say say it with control, and that is let your breath be the first word that you say. I've been talking a little fast here in this podcast, which is unlike me. I think, uh, I'll tell you why. I drank too much coffee this morning, too much coffee, admittedly. Usually, I talk pretty slow. All right? Can you hear how just the way I'm talking now, and now I'm slowing down just a little bit, might in a micro percentage also slow you down a little bit? Maybe, you know, the neural activity in your brain is starting to slow down just a little bit. Maybe you feel a little bit more relaxed at me speaking a little more slowly. When I put breath before my words, it is making sure that I am regulating myself, and even more importantly, I am showing you, I am showing you that I am regulated, that I am in control, and what I'm about to say, I've chosen. I've chosen those words. Makes a very big difference. So when I teach my clients, "Hey, don't get wrapped up. Don't try and step on somebody's question. Don't try to interrupt them. Let them get it out, and then you observe the question, observe the, the interaction, take a breath, and then choose what you want to say." You are in complete control of the pace of any conversation. Nobody can make you say anything you don't want to say, and nobody can make you say it at a time you don't want to say it. That choice is yours. That choice is yours. And I cannot tell you how many clients I have seen come to find, accept, and then grow in their own power and their own sense of value and worth of, "Wow, I, I get to choose if I say anything. And you know what? If I wanna wait 30 seconds before I say something, I can do that." Uh, it's, it is a freeing feeling to know, "Mm, you know, I'm gonna think about this. Let me chew on this question for a second." Just that alone, the ability to say that says, "Oh, no, no. I'm, I'm operating at a different level you don't know about. No, I'm, I'm not who you thought I was. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to choose my words, and I'm going to show you that what I'm about to say is something that I absolutely mean and I'm saying with intention." All right? Y- can you feel the difference? Say, what kind of breath are we talking about? I've run through this breath before. It's always good to do it because it's something that is good for me too. It's a conversational breath, and what it does, it's based on a physiological sigh, which is a double... Well, that kind of sounded weird. Double inhalation. A double inhalation. So you're breathing, you're inhaling twice. All right? So you ready with me? We're gonna breathe through your nose. Wherever you are, just do it. Don't worry about it. People might look at you. Don't worry. Ready? We're gonna breathe in through your nose about two to three seconds. One more at the top, and then let out through your nose. My guess is you're starting to come down a little bit. Maybe your shoulders relaxed a little bit. It's the feeling that mimics a sigh. When you use that kind of breath, and I promise you, you continue to do it while I'm talking right now, you'll see that you get really good at it. You can do it anytime. The most crucial part for me is when I teach my clients to do it is before they answer the question. Just take two seconds or one second. What we like to say here in the South is just say one Mississippi. In other words, in, in your head, you're gonna go, "Mississippi." Like, well, you can use your own name if you have a long name. You know, just whatever it is, it's, it's to get you in the mindset of taking a beat, a moment. Take that breath and choose what you want to say. It is always going to be better. And number three, the third thing that I teach every single one of my clients is to use less words. Say less. Now, in the legal context, if my witness starts to give a very long answer, you know what happens? Every... Why did I say it like that? Happens? [laughs] What happens is I guarantee them that the opposing attorney is now going to slice up that long answer they just gave and turn that into five more questions, 10 more questions. The shorter the answer, the stronger, more clear it is every single time. If I give you an answer that is short and concise, you can do nothing with it. You can do nothing with it. Hear the difference. So I might have a client who I've trained, and we, we practice a lot. And when she might take a breath and answer a question and go, "No," and that's it. That's the only answer. What the, what can the other attorney do? Nothing. They can't do anything with it. They can only go to their next question. But I've also had it, despite my training and teaching, where somebody goes, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, that it was just such a hectic day, and, you know, I forgot to go pick up the eggs, and my, and my dog was sick, and, you know, he just, it, it just, you know, peanut butter messes up his system, and I, I just find that..." And you're going, and I'm going, "Oh, my gosh. What is happening?" So that happens. That happens because people are, are human, right? So we have to take a break, and I go, "What, what are we doing? Come on. Get back in it with me." So you see the difference in w- if somebody's giving a very long answer, some practical things happen. One is I'm giv- the witness is giving more information than is needed, right? Unnecessary information, which means the other person, let's put this in everyday application. Everyday people are going to get confused as to what the answer is. They're going to fill in their own assumptions of why you're not answering it directly. They're going to hear that there's just more words, which just automatically leads to the possibility of more confusion and more miscommunication. We don't want that. We want short, concise. So I like to say it when I, when I teach is that if I ask you, "Do you have the time? Do you know what time it is?" That means I'm going to ask you to stop and ask that question in your mind. Do I know what time it is? What am I asking? Do you know what time it is? And if you give me the time, "Oh, it's, um, eight oh three," that's the wrong answer. That's the wrong answer. If I say, "Do you know the time?" The answer is, "Yes, I do." It's that detailed. It is that detailed because in my world, it has to be that detailed. You have to be. In an everyday conversation, those high-stake, high-emotion, just when everything is on the, the table, everything's on the line, every little word of clarity matters a great deal, and I have to make sure that you're prepared. So when you condense your words into something that is very short, very concise, the longer of an answer you give, the more opportunity there is for miscommunication, more opportunity there is for somebody to take your answer and twist it. Here's an example. Have you ever been in a text argument with somebody? I have. I know you have. And it, they just sent you something, and you're like, "Oh, really?" And you just start texting on your phone, just going after it, and you write a paragraph. I'm talking, you just, you hit 'em so good, and it's perfect, and you're, it's, it's, this is exactly how I feel. And you send it, and they send a text that doesn't even address anything that you said at all. Or maybe they addressed one part that they could defend and like, but they ignored all the rest. It's that same principle. You're giving someone way too much to take and to twist. So if you want to handle high conflict, like I teach every one of my clients, you have to keep your answers as short as possible. Answer their question and only their question. All right? Okay. Hey, look, you're, you're ready. You're ready. I know we, we, maybe we're gonna need to talk about this. Let's go grab some coffee. Make sure you get some snacks. Feel good. We're about to go into this deposition room together, and you're gonna do awesome, I promise. What did we talk about today? When it comes to high-stakes conversation, number one, observe, don't absorb. Observe, don't absorb. Number two, use your breath as the first word that you say. Slow it down and choose your words. Be intentional with them. Make sure that you are operating on your timeframe, not somebody else's. And number three, say less. Shorten your answers. When you give way too much, you allow the opportunity for somebody to grab onto it, pieces, and say things you didn't mean. You're giving them more to twist. You're giving them more to twist. It's like, uh, giving somebody a long piece of rope. They- they're able to put a bunch of knots in it. But if you just give them a little bit of rope,

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:39 it... Maybe it's not even enough to do a, a, a, to tie their shoe with, right? It's a big difference. You wanna make sure that you're very short and concise. Man, my, um, examples today are all over the place. We talked about the grocery store. We talked about shoelaces. Man, what a, what a day. What an episode. Some things that I wanted to share, Mel, of... There are some people that think that the Let Them Theory has to apply to these big, big moments in their life, just like we were talking about. And what I felt, and I know what you have said, and I've just been glued to your work, is that it really does apply in every little scenario. And what it thought of in my mind, and I just had such a wonderful mol- r- uh, ro- role model in my life of my parents. So my dad would use this theory and not even... It wasn't even the Let Them Theory. So I, I would bring something up to him, and I'd be like, "Well, they're gonna be mad if we do that." And he'd say, "Yeah, they're gonna be mad." [laughs]

Speaker 1:14:36 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:36 I'd say, "Well, no, they're gonna be angry." He, he goes, "Yeah, I guess he'll be mad about it." Like, it was just that, "I... Well, I guess he'll be mad." Yeah. Or, uh, this is one that would always get me. We'd be driving down the two-lane highway, and somebody... I- he's driving, I'm in the passenger seat, and somebody would be right on his bumper. And I feel anxiety while I'm looking-

Speaker 1:14:57 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:57 ... in the, the side mirror. I'm like, "Okay, Dad, you gotta speed up." And I mean, without missing a beat, he would just kinda pull over onto the shoulder, and he would say out loud, "Go on with your bad self." That's what he'd say every time. "Go on with your bad self." And so it just... It's like that now. We all... E- everybody who's listening, if you're a driver, you know what it's like that you have somebody that's either wants to pass you, you want to pass them, and you're very vocal even when you drive of everybody out there. They're either going too slow, you need to go faster, or somebody's right behind you, and you're gonna take that as some kind of challenge. Let Them Theory applies especially in these micro moments that really have nothing even to do with one-on-one communication with another person. It's that self-communication that we talked about at the beginning, that it's often just letting them go, and you're gonna let me take the next step. Do I have that right, Mel?

Speaker 1:15:57 You not only have that right, but I wanna, I wanna unpack two really important things there. So the first thing I wanna unpack is the reason why the Let Them Theory is such a phenomenon is that it does not exist in a vacuum.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:11 Hmm.

Speaker 1:16:12 I am reminding you of what you know to be true. I am not, like, l- I am not the first person... In fact, w- e- ever since we announced this book, people have come out of the woodworks to be like, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh." T.D. Jakes did a sermon 20 years ago, Let Them Go. Like, there's, there's the-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:31 Yeah

Speaker 1:16:32 ... the Serenity Prayer is the Let Them Theory. Buddhism, radical acceptance, stoicism, the, uh, peaceful, like, protest, this is all about controlling your response. If you've read Man's Search for Meaning, Victor Frankl, the entire book is about the power of attitude and how the things out there you can't control, but they don't have to impact what you're thinking about in here. These are powerful concepts that have been woven through spiritual teachings, philosophy, therapeutic modalities since the beginning of time. I have just taken all of that and turned it into a simple tool that you activate with two words, let them and let me. And, you know, for me, in my family, my mom is literally like, "I've lived like this my entire life."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:28 Yeah.

Speaker 1:17:28 In fact, she had a pillow that said, "Pull up your big girl panties and deal with it." That's let me.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:33 [laughs]

Speaker 1:17:33 That's let me out of my mother's... And so-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:36 Yeah

Speaker 1:17:36 ... the reason why I also believe that this has exploded is because you are being reminded of what you already know to be true.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:46 Yes.

Speaker 1:17:46 You are also being handed a tool, and this is happening at a moment in history that feels at unprecedented levels like everything is out of control, and the headlines are overwhelming. People's stress levels are overwhelming. Everybody has somebody in their family who is profoundly struggling. People are worried about the economy. They're worried about their kids. They're worried about the future, and it doesn't matter where you live or who you are. People are worried about AI. All of this feels like it is out of control, and this is ultimately a book about control and how when you try to control things that you can't control, like other people's opinions or their moods or their attitudes or how fast they drive or slow they drive or whether or not they ride the bumper, it just creates stress for you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:39 As somebody who gives advice on a lot of different formats on how to connect with people and how to handle conflict, often some of the most important conversations are self-communication, what you say to yourself. That's why therapy is something that you need to be doing. I go to therapy. There's nothing wrong with it. It's getting conversations out of your head and just talking about it. It's more helpful than you think. A sponsor of this podcast, BetterHelp, is an online platform that helps connect you to a licensed therapist just for that purpose, and it's real easy. All you do is just fill out a survey, and they connect you with a therapist that's right for you. And if it's not a good match, no problem. They'll, at no cost, fix you up with another one. And it's very important to get these conversations out of your head. Relationships come with questions. Therapy comes with answers. You can go to betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. I highly recommend it

Speaker 1:19:38 And the real power in life, whether you're learning through it through stoicism, or you're learning about it through Viktor Frankl's work, or you're learning about it through radical acceptance, is in focusing on what you can control, which is your response, your attitude, what you choose to do or don't do in response to the things around you. And the second thing I wanted to say about that story, because I absolutely love it, and we can all relate to that, just pull over and just, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:10 [laughs]

Speaker 1:20:10 ... what, how did your dad say it? Let your bad self by, or what did he, what-

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:13 He'd say, he'd say, "Go on with your bad self."

Speaker 1:20:15 Go on with your bad self.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:15 Go on with your bad self.

Speaker 1:20:16 That, yeah, yeah. You're just still like, go on with your bad self. You're acknowledging the negative energy. You're-

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:21 Yeah

Speaker 1:20:21 ... you're allowing it, right? So now you're in control. It's not like he's run you off the road. You're like, "All right, go on with your bad self." I'm in control here because I'm choosing to pull over.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:20:31 And I'm choosing to recognize your energy is not affecting me, and this is the second thing that's actually really, really important. So you talked about being in the passenger seat and feeling that volcano of stressful energy rise up in your body.

Jefferson Fisher 1:20:47 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:20:48 And the reason why it's important to use the let them theory in the micro moments, standing in line, and it's taking too long, dealing with a frustrating customer service issue, having somebody be rude to you. Like, all these little things, people, like, stopping in front of you and then that... Like, whatever rude behavior, let them, let them, let them. 'Cause every time you say, "Let them," just like with your da- go on with your bad self, just like when you do that, what you're doing is you're not allowing dumb things on the outside to actually steal your life force.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:22 Yes.

Speaker 1:21:22 And what I realized, Jefferson, is that I had no idea how even just two years ago, the age of 54, I would come barreling into my home at the end of the day, completely stressed out from work and emails and Zoom calls and the long lines and the traffic commute home, and I'd, you know, throw my bag down, and ah. I'm all razzled and stressed out from all these micro moments where I'm letting the stress rise up. And then what do I do? I snap at my kids.

Jefferson Fisher 1:21:56 Right.

Speaker 1:21:56 And you taught me something. You taught me a saying that I said, that I taught to my family to say to me, which is, you know, "I'm really sorry for what your work stress did to you, but you're gonna have to apologize for what your work stress is doing to me."

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:09 Hmm.

Speaker 1:22:09 And it wasn't until I learned to say, "Let them," and I started protecting myself from the unnecessary stress and frustration of all the things that happen in modern life, that I actually got on the other side of this problem. And I can now walk into my house at the end of the day and not vomit all of that frustration and stress on my kids and my husband. And the reason why this matters is because I think it's very hard, or at least it's very hard for me, to communicate effectively or to communicate like a mature adult or with kindness when I am stressed out-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22:56 Hmm

Speaker 1:22:56 ... or I am frustrated or I am tired. And it has been a life-changing experience in terms of the level of peace in our household and the amount of safety that I think my family feels around me. Like, oh, what kind of... We all have that person in our family. What kind of mood are they gonna be in when they come home? Well, that was me. 'Cause I was constantly allowing everything to get to me, and then I would get home and I'm like a raw wire.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:23 Hmm.

Speaker 1:23:23 And then that's when you use that tone, or that's when you say something you regret, or you send that snarky email. And saying, "Let them, let them, let them," and protecting my peace has made me a better communicator overall because I'm actually calm and centered when I'm opening my mouth at the end of the day.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:42 So good. So good. I love these moments of you're turning what would be an exasperated sigh, the ugh, into let them and let me take an intentional breath, you know? [laughs]

Speaker 1:23:55 Yes, yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:55 Let me turn that into something that is really gonna serve me-

Speaker 1:23:59 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:23:59 ... and in my purpose of where I wanna go rather than I have no control, let me just let out a sigh that is, uh, letting everybody know how aggravated and annoyed I am and how much of an inconvenience they are. I think that is incredibly powerful. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there