The Jefferson Fisher PodcastHow To Stay Confident When You Cry In An Argument | Jefferson Fisher
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
75 min read · 15,436 words- 0:00 – 1:01
Crying during an argument: why it’s normal and nothing to be ashamed of
- JFJefferson Fisher
So you're in a heated argument, and out of nowhere, you feel it, tears starting to well up in your eyes. And no matter how much you're fighting it, there's just no stopping them from coming. What do you do when you cry in an argument? Well, I'll tell you. Absolutely nothing. Don't you dare for one second be ashamed or embarrassed that you cry. Do you feel embarrassed or ashamed when your shoulders get tense or your jaw gets tight or your eyebrows go down because your body's not liking the situation? Your body's reacting naturally to what's happening. Do you apologize then? Of course you don't. It's the same thing for when you cry. It is just biology. It's what happens. It is your stress in liquid form. So the next time you feel tears starting to well up in your eyes, this is what I want you to do. Here's three rules I'm gonna give you right now. Number
- 1:01 – 2:33
Three rules to stay confident when you cry: don’t apologize, don’t spotlight it, label it if needed
- JFJefferson Fisher
one, don't ever apologize for it. Don't say, "I'm, I'm so sorry. [laughs] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I'm crying right now. Geez, I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed." Absolutely not. I will not allow that. [laughs] I won't allow that one. Y- there's nothing to be ashamed of. There's nothing you should be apologizing for. It's how your body is responding. Unless you're crying about a topic that, you know, it's, it's, maybe it's funny, maybe it's something that it's not appropriate to cry at, but I can't even envision that. Don't apologize for what your body is naturally responding to in that moment. Number two, don't even acknowledge them. That means when you're in an argument with someone and you're having a, a difficult conversation and it's a difficult moment, and you start to cry, don't even acknowledge them. Just wipe them away and keep on talking. Wipe them away and keep on talking. If you can grab a tissue, great. If not, just wipe them away and keep on talking. Don't acknowledge them because if anything, it serves as a distraction. It calls attention to it. Number three, if you need to, label the tears. What I mean by that is if you feel yourself crying, you can say, "These are tired tears. These are stressed tears. These are tears that care. These are tears that, um, are, are understanding the importance of this moment." You find different words to label the tears that doesn't feel like you're just crying to cry. No, it's your body responding
- 2:33 – 4:03
What crying does to your nervous system (and how to use it to your advantage)
- JFJefferson Fisher
to what is natural in that moment. And let's talk for a second about what crying is. When you cry, it activates your parasympathetic nervous system. It is the opposite of your fight or flight mode. This is your rest, digest, relaxation mode. What that means is when you start to cry, your body is helping you. It is trying to release emotions. It is trying to soothe you. Because in that moment, in that argument, in that fight, your body's telling you something. Your body's saying, "Hey, your stress cup is too full. It's too full. It's about to overflow. Let me take care of that for you." And it does that in a way that you can start to release emotions in the form of liquid. That's it. So the higher the tension, the higher the release. That's why it makes sense when you cry to say, "I'm, these are just calming tears. My body's calming down. No, this, this is, these are tears that, that care. I'm listening. Keep talking." See what I mean? And when you just say, say it to the other person, "Keep talking," even when you're crying, "Keep talking. I'm listening." In other words, "Don't worry about this. This is just my body taking care of myself." See what I'm doing right now? This is normal. This is, uh, natural. Let's, let's get rid of the stigma that just because you're crying, it means that you're trying to get attention. Just because you're crying, it means that you can't take the present moment. No, it's your body fully prepared and equipped to handle the conflict in front
- 4:03 – 5:35
“When you claim it, you control it”: confidence through emotional labeling
- JFJefferson Fisher
of you. There's nothing wrong with it. So understand that when the tears come, it is your body calming you down. It is your body acting and processing exactly the way it was made. And if you've followed my content for any amount of time, you're going to recognize this phrase. When you claim it, you control it. And I say it because it's applicable in many different contexts, especially when it comes to crying. When you claim it, you control it. What it means is when you say things out loud, when you say how you're feeling out loud, you're able to control that emotion better by acknowledging it out in the open. So instead of saying, "I'm sad," and becoming the emotion, it's, "I can tell I'm feeling sad." And now you've separated and distanced yourself from that feeling, and now you can process it. Now you can deal with it. Now you can communicate about it, rather than bottling it up all inside of you. And that's why labeling is so important. When you can say to the other person, "I can tell that I'm frustrated," or, "I can tell these are, [laughs] these are tired tears. Keep talking. I'm listening," then it's no problem, because it looks like you're emotionally intelligent. It looks like you're the person who's more in control than rather, "What's going on with you? What's happening?" "Oh, I don't wanna talk about it," and you're just bottling it up all inside. So when you can claim it, you control it, and it makes you so much more confident
- 5:35 – 7:07
When the other person cries: what not to do, what to do instead
- JFJefferson Fisher
in that moment that you're not worried about crying. You're not worried about tears. Instead, you're focused on communicating in the moment, in that present conversation. And I also want to touch on what do you do when someone else is crying in front of you in an argument. So you're in a conversation one-on-one. What do you do when the other person begins to cry? Well, here's what you don't do. You don't do, "Oh, [scoffs] okay, this again?" You don't do that. You don't say, "Oh, okay, fine. Got it. All right. Yes, you gotta cry, fine," and act like it is some inconvenience to you. That's a problem. That's, that's, that is toxic behavior to act that way. That is immature, emotionally immature to say, "Oh, this again? Okay. [laughs] All right. I guess we'll just take a time out." No, we're not gonna do that. If somebody is crying in an argument, you don't address it. Same thing for rule number two for when you're the one crying. You don't address it. You just continue to keep talking with them. That means you don't break eye contact. That means you don't say, "Uh, do you mean, need a minute? You need a minute? Uh, it's, it's fine." No, you, you don't break any of that communication. You still look at them like a normal person and understand they're just talking. You wouldn't do that, say, "You need a break?" if you see their shoulders get tense. So you're just gonna say nothing and continue to talk. Don't acknowledge it. If you need anything at all, if you were to do anything,
- 7:07 – 8:37
Tears as manipulation: why staying on the words still works
- JFJefferson Fisher
it might be to, if a tissue's nearby, grab it and just hand it to them and keep on talking or keep on listening. But don't at all make them feel ashamed. Don't at all try to make them feel like they're an inconvenience to the conversation, because they can't help it in many ways. Now, I will say that there are some, because I, I, I understand this, that this is very true, some people will use tears as manipulation. I mean, we get it from kids. My, my four-year-old, she, uh... I have a six-year-old son and a four-year-old daughter, and don't get me wrong, they both can turn on the waterworks like a faucet at any time, and they can quickly turn it off. But that's all the more reason why you can't acknowledge it in that moment. Now, if it's indication that they're upset, it's different with kids. Let's put this in terms of mature adults, hopefully m- mature adults. When they feel like they're crying, if you feel at all that they're manipulating the situation, well, then that's all the more reason for you not to acknowledge it. It's not you being dismissive. It's you staying in the lane of the conversation, saying, "No, I'm, I'm focused on the words. I'm not focused on how your body is reacting in this moment. Whether it's genuine, whether it's sincere or not, I'm focused on the words and how we're gonna communicate this message back and forth." Okay, now's the part of the podcast where I get to read an email from a follower then answer their question. If you don't
- 8:37 – 12:40
Listener email (Sandy): shaking voice, “feeling like a mess,” and calming the body
- JFJefferson Fisher
already know, I have a newsletter where I send out one communication tip once a week right to your inbox totally for free, and those who respond, I'm able to communicate with, and I get lots of ask me, uh, questions, AMAs, that I try to respond here. So I have the... It, it'll be in the show notes that you can sign up for yourself if you'd like, and I have one right here on my other phone. So this one comes from Sandy. She is over in Georgia, in Georgia, United States. And Georg- uh, Sandy says, "Hey, Jefferson. Thank you so much. I always watch your content." Thank, thank you, Sandy. "I find myself in the position of always feeling like I'm a mess in difficult conversations." I'm sorry, Sandy. "I feel like I start to, uh, shake, my voice gets to, gets shaky, and I begin to cry a whole lot. Do you have any tips for me?" Understand when I read these, it's... I'm trying to skip over personal details that, that Sandy probably wouldn't want me to share. So Sandy, I'm sorry about that. I d- I don't want you to feel as if you're having to always be a mess, that you're trying to put yourself back together again. That's one thing I wanna highlight, would be my, my first recommendation to you, is don't say out loud, "I'm just a mess. I, I need to... Give me a second. I need to put myself together." That's not the case. Your crying is your body putting yourself together. Your crying is your body soothing yourself. So let's address two different issues. One, you said you, you shake a lot. You get nervous. When you get nervous, uh, your voice is shaking in the conversation. That's very natural. That's very normal. That is the, um, the fight and flight mode. All right? That's the adrenaline going through your body and getting you all hyped, and that often results in your muscles starting to shake because your muscles are reacting and ready to either fight or run from any given situation. The way you control that is your breath, Sandy, is in [exhales] and out. And you see how you can just relax those shoulders just like that? So whenever you're in a situation where your voice is really shaky like that, go back to your breath every time. Speak on the out breath. Often, when you're shaking, it's because you're holding your breath because you feel nervous in that situation. It tenses everything up. That's why sometimes we yell, right? We yell because our body is, we've bottled it up, put a screw cap on it, and all of a sudden, when it's ready to explode, we raise our voice. Just keep your breath calm and steady and as rhythmic as you can. By that, I mean try to keep it in a four seconds in, hold it four seconds, release it four seconds, hold it four seconds. That's box breathing, is what they call that. Now, to the other point of you feel like you're maybe just a bubbling mess, I wanna go back to what I said a minute ago. Don't be apologizing for crying, and don't be feeling like you're some mess that you have to pick up off the floor and you're gonna be an inconvenience for anybody there. Instead, just label the tears to the best that you can. "I can tell that these are overwhelmed tears. I can tell these are, these are happy tears. Keep talking." That's another point that I don't know if I've hit home enough. It's okay to tell them, "Keep talking." Even when you start to cry or you start to tear up, rather than acknowledging them and stopping the conversation, you can tell them if they start to slow down a little bit and be like, "Oh, do you need some time?" Wave it off. "No, you can keep talking. Keep talking. I'm listening." In other words, you're saying, "I'm not worried about what's happening. You don't need to be worried about what's happening. Let's just keep talking in this conversation because my body's doing exactly what it's, it's made to do." So keep your breath calm, and when you feel those tears come, don't apologize for them. Don't feel embarrassed about them. Instead, just label them to whatever is honest and sincere and genuine in that moment.
- 12:40 – 13:41
Quick recap: the three crying rules you can use immediately
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right, the next time you cry in an argument, what are we gonna do? Number one, we're not going to apologize. We're not gonna say, "I'm so sorry." We're not gonna make it feel like an inconvenience. We are absolutely not going to apologize. Listen to me, don't apologize for it. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Number two, we're not going to acknowledge them. We're not gonna stop the conversation, and we're not gonna allow the other person to stop the conversation. Instead, we're gonna say something like, "I'm listening. You can keep going." Don't acknowledge them, as if this is something that is totally normal and something that neither one of you should be afraid of. Number three, if you need to, label the tears, meaning say the feeling that is triggering the fear. "These are tired tears. These are tears that care." Ways that you can communicate because when you claim it, you control it. Here's the truth: you can't control another person's emotions, but you can control how much power their emotions have over
- 13:41 – 17:13
Staying in control when the conversation turns emotional: the “bubble” and making space
- JFJefferson Fisher
you. Today, I'm gonna teach you how to stay in control even when the conversation turns emotional. All that and more coming right up. Now, I will be the first to admit I have trouble sometimes in conversation when the other person gets emotional. That's, that's me being honest and transparent with you. If somebody is getting really emotional, whether it's anger, meaning they escalate in anger, or maybe they're really sad and they're crying a whole lot, or maybe they feel really closed off, or they're having big emotions, that's hard for me to process sometimes. Throughout this episode, I want you to see the conversation between me and you or you and another person as you two in a circle, in a enclosed, confined space, but let's give it some room. Let's not be claustrophobic. Give yourself some, some space. That it's this preserved bubble that you're in that is a circle, and whether or not how much space do you have in this conversation for emotion. Like I said, sometimes I have a hard time with that. I tend to be, um, somebody who can sometimes see emotions as a distraction to the point or the goal or the finish line of what I'm wanting to communicate, and sometimes that's good. As an attorney, that's how we're taught, right? I can have clients that are very emotional right in front of me, and it won't affect me at all, and there's some times that, yeah, I get pulled on my heartstrings and I, I want to help, and I'm there, and there are other times where it is... it's just part of the process because I've seen a lot of emotion. People come to me, and a lot of trial attorneys can relate to this. I... They're seeing... I'm seeing them at some of the lowest, hardest points of their life, and so it's also a sign of strength for me to say, "I can take on your emotion. I can be here with you. I..." And at the same time, I can still be empathetic without trying to make you feel worse or make it feel like you shouldn't feel this way. So there's some p- part of it where emotion's just part of the game. I can... or, um, I might be deposing a witness, like asking questions, and they start to cry. That's, that's part of it, so sometimes I have to see through that emotion. That's professionally. In relationship side, that's just part of the, the life. That's part of the relationship, is to be vulnerable with those emotions of how you're f- feeling, and I, I'm definitely not gonna talk to a witness when they're going through some time of emotion that I'm gonna talk with my wife or my mom or my dad or my siblings or my kids. So it's, it's understanding context. It's understanding environment. So let's call that the, the bubble in this. So admittedly, sometimes I have trouble with that. That's just me being honest, and there are other times where despite me having difficulty sometime, I can tell you how to control your own self in the conversation even when they get emotional, and I don't do this... I'm not telling you this in some kind of hidden trick way or there's some kind of Jedi mind trick. There's not. There's just very simple key things I want you to keep in mind when somebody else on the other side is starting to get emotional. So I want you to kind of nod your head right now if that's you. You feel like when other people get emotional in the conversation, y- you don't know how to process that. Maybe you get... you tense up. Maybe you freeze. Maybe you want to distance yourself from it. You're not really sure how to do it, and you're... you feel awkward all of a sudden. I want to reassure you that's totally normal,
- 17:13 – 21:15
Step 1: identify your physical cues so emotions don’t hijack you
- JFJefferson Fisher
all right? I can, I can relate to that to some extent, so I want to help you through this in this episode, so here we go. You ready? Number one, what I want you to do when it comes to maintaining control when the other person gets emotional is to understand first before you start even assessing the other person, understand your own physical cues, and I mean physical. So understand how in that moment their emotions affect your physical, meaning do you find that your face scrunches up like I'm doing right now? Do you find that your body or your neck tenses up? Regardless of the emotion that they're showing, let's, let's not go into the details yet. Let's, let's keep it surface, and then we'll go deep. What happens when you perceive any kind of emotion? 'Cause most of the time, whether it's happy or sad, we still have a physical reaction. To it, from whatever emotion that they're showing. So maybe you scoot away, maybe your head looks away 'cause you don't want to face it. Maybe you feel like you... Maybe you clench your fists. I was thinking of the word. I didn't know the... Forgot the word. You clench your fists in some extent. We all have a physical reaction, and your job right now is to think of yours. So just five seconds. What tends to be your first gut reaction when somebody on the other side of you gets emotional? For me, I find that often it's difficult for me to keep eye contact with them because I don't want them to feel that they're on the witness stand or they are on this pedestal or they are... all eyes are on them, and sometimes eye contact makes it harder on the other person. So maybe I might avoid my eyes. Sometimes I can shut down. In other words, I'm gonna distance myself a little bit because I don't wanna be maybe too strong in the conversation. Um, so that tends to be s- sometimes that, that happens when somebody gets really, really emotional in the conversation. And it also depends, which I'm hearing you saying right now is, Jefferson, it depends what kind of emotion they're showing, and I, I understand that. If it's sadness and the other person is very sad and let's say they're crying a whole lot, you know, I don't know really how to deal with that. What I can tell you is that it's not helpful if you try to avoid it and distance. Why? Because it makes them feel all the more isolated. Instead, you have to get comfortable with understanding your physical cues and being comfortable around what they're doing and that sadness. That shows empathy, that shows sympathy. That shows that their emotions aren't scaring you off. If it's anger that they're showing, different story because what happens, we typically hold our breath and then we start to prepare to run, to yell, to fight back. We're f- just a fight or fight fully on board. We don't know if we wanna throw hurtful words, escalate the behavior. So what is the main key that drives this is your physical cues. Your body will almost always betray you in that way. You ever heard when somebody goes, "What's... You seem like you're mad," and you're like, "I don't know. N- not-- I'm not mad." And they're like, "Okay, well, your, your face and your voice say you do." It's because your body knows. Regardless of what you say in your mind, your body knows, and sometimes it will betray you that way in ways that you're not expecting. So number one, understand your physical cues. If you don't know naturally what you do when you're feeling the emotions of somebody else, ask a friend. Ask your closest friend, a partner, a spouse, a parent. Say, "Hey, when things get emotional, what do you see that I, I tend to do?" Ask them that question and I promise you'll learn something. It's, it's gonna help you. Why, why do you want to know your physical cues? Because that is step one. If you cannot control your physical cues,
- 21:15 – 26:50
Step 2: grounding phrases that keep you present (“Put it down,” “There is space for this”)
- JFJefferson Fisher
if you do not know what's happening to your body in that moment, then I cannot help you. Then nobody can help you. Then you will not have control when the other person gets emotional. If you cannot at least acknowledge and identify what your physical cues are. Cool? Okay, number two, I want you to start using phrases in your head that ground you. That sounds woo-woo. It's not. I promise it's not. I do it, and I, I'm not a woo-woo fan. So what does that mean, use phrases in your head to ground yourself? We're going to talk to ourself and use phrases when the other person's getting emotional that help us stay in the moment. When I say present, I mean my mind is not off somewhere else. I am here. I'm focused in on what is happening in front of me. I am not in the past. I am not in the future. I am right here in this moment. There is no other point in time that will ever be the same as when I am listening to you right now, and I might need to use phrases that I'm gonna say to myself that you and I are gonna work out together that's- that are gonna be personal to you, that are gonna help you make sure and realize that your feet are planted. So wherever you are right now, if you're listening, maybe you're standing, maybe you're walking, maybe you're in your car, I want you to just, like, wiggle your toes. Remember th- those guys? Yeah. You... Maybe you forgot that they were there. Wiggle them for a second. Okay, cool. Now just keep them still. That's... I, I, I want to just put this image of grounding. So just push your feet, if you can, into the ground. The soles of your feet, of your shoes, your socks, feel it in the ground. That is you planted in that moment. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna use phrases that help you, and I'm going to share with you two of mine. All right? Number one, when somebody's getting emotional, what I say to myself is the same thing that I say if I find that I'm getting defensive. Because often, if there's anger in front of me, that emotion, I want to pick it up. So what do I ground myself with? I use the phrase, "Put it down, Jefferson." I, I'm not kidding. I immediately will go, "Put it down, Jefferson. Put it down. Put it down." I, I think of my, my son picking something off the ground and I'm like, "Eh, let, let go of that. You don't need to be picking up this," uh, I don't know. It could be whatever kids pick up that is best that they not. So you name it. Or I just go in my head, "Put it down, Jefferson. That's not yours to carry. That's not yours to pick up." It is not yours. It is their emotion. Don't pick it up. You can see it. You can acknowledge it. I say, "Put it down, Jefferson." So right now, just say it to yourself, whatever your name is, "Put it down." See how that feels to you. You're gonna come up maybe with your own personal phrase that feels good to you to remind you to drop it. Drop it. Don't take on their emotion. You are here in the present, grounded, without trying to add anything else to it. Another that I like Another that I like is I will say to myself, there is space for this. There is space for this. Meaning if I'm in a conversation with somebody who's starting to get emotional, whether it's sadness or anger, I ground myself with the phrase, there is space for this. Meaning two things can be true at the same time. I can have my emotions and they can have their emotions and two things can be true at the same time. Both emotions can be true. It doesn't mean either one is right. It doesn't mean either one is less valid than the other. Two things can be true at the same time. There is space for both of this. So maybe I'm mad, right? And maybe my wife is really sad or vice versa. It doesn't mean that either one of us is on a bad playing field. It means that there is space for both of this. Or maybe I am having a conversation with an attorney who's really grinding my gears and this attorney's getting heated. Well, I know that's coming from a purpose and a reason. I'm not going to let that control me. For me to control myself and control the conversation, even when they start to get emotional, is to remind myself there's space for this. There's enough room. So that goes back to the circle that we talked about, this bubble. So if there's space for it, we're going to widen that enough. The circle between me and you right now, there's enough space. If there's not, then we have to widen our circle. That means if there's not enough space, it means that bubble doesn't include both of us. It only includes me. And if that's the case, then that's a conversation we're going to have to rethink from the very beginning because that's a conversation you don't really want to be in. And that's a conversation that the other person doesn't deserve you in. So because that's not a two-way connection. You feel me? So when you are both in the bubble, the circle of communicating, it's okay for you to ground yourself, to make sure you have control, to say there is space for this. Those are two of my favorites. Now, you can make any phrase that you want. That's totally up to you. Totally up to you. A phrase that's going to ground you. There's no right answer. There is no wrong answer. It is simply a reminder of I am here. This emotion is valid or this emotion I see, this emotion I observe, rather than taking it and knitting it into a
- 26:50 – 32:26
Step 3: boundaries during emotional escalation (steady voice, clear limits, no mirroring)
- JFJefferson Fisher
sweater and then putting it on, deciding that that's now your emotion too. And you're going to get worked up about it. All right? That's how to continue to maintain control even when they get emotional. Number three, what I want you to stand in line with here is that even when they get emotional, there is a boundary. There is a boundary. That is a boundary that protects you in a way that they don't really have to do anything. So that means if they're starting to raise their voice, this really goes for things that are negative. In other words, it's anger, it's rage, it's frustration, irritation that they're trying to put on you. They're trying to color you in those emotions. When that kind of thing happens, you put up a boundary with that. What I mean is, first off, we're not going to mirror what you see. If they start to get angry, we're not going to mirror that. If they start to raise their voice and their level is at a level six, that doesn't mean you're going to see it as a competition and raise it to level eight. That's not maintaining control. That is simply giving away your control. That means the louder they get, the more steady your voice will be. That means the faster they go, the slower your voice is going to sound. And I promise you, you will always sound more in control of that conversation than the other person. What happens is they're going to eventually regulate to come back down. So how do you maintain that boundary? Here's some phrases that I like. One is I set up this framework that I do not X, Y, Z. If you continue to X, Y, and Z, then this is the end of the conversation for me. For example, I don't respond to somebody who's yelling at me. If you continue to yell and raise your voice, this is the end of the conversation. Simple as that. Simple boundary. Now it's if they want to continue to talk, now they know the rules of the game, the rules of play. I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to talk with me in that tone, this is the end of the conversation for me. That's still a boundary. Every bit of a boundary. You can still be there for their emotions. You still can be there to observe them, but also maintain your own sense of self-worth and self-respect, making sure that that doesn't get diluted or watered down. Another that I really like is I'm willing to talk, not be talked over. Or I'm willing to talk and I'm not willing to talk like this. That's one of my favorites. Because what I'm doing is I'm using and, not but. This is how my weird brain goes. So if I say I'm willing to talk, but not like this, that but deletes I'm willing to talk. I think it's stronger, my professional opinion, of I'm willing to talk and I'm not willing to talk like this. So it's very clear of what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do. You can shorten it however you like. I'm not trying to be super nitpicky. It's going to be whatever is right for you. Maybe you want to say I'm not comfortable continuing to talk like this. If we continue to talk this way, I'm going to need a break. I'm gonna need a timeout. Those are boundaries to protect you. So even when they start to get overly emotional, that is you maintaining control in the conversation. They're short, they're simple, they are there to help you. And if the other person abides by them, they're also there to help the other person as well, no matter what emotion tends to bubble up on the surface. So when somebody's getting emotional in the conversation and you're not really sure what to do, what did we talk about? Number one, you're gonna maintain and understand and identify your own physical cues. What is happening to you and your body? Your body will drive the train. Number two, you're going to find yourself grounding in that moment, staying planted and present by using phrases that help remind you to do that, like, "There is space for this. Two things can be true at the same time. I can be mad and they can be sad, and that's okay." Three, don't let yourself be walked over. If you need to hold a boundary, do not let their emotions all of a sudden become your emotions. Don't let them just take a stamp and stamp you with them and say, "You have to also be upset if I'm upset." I've seen that too sometimes in people who, in relationships, they feel like, "I just want you to argue with me. I want you to be mad like I'm mad." They want you to show some kind of emotion to see if it's... To feel something. Be very careful with that, because often that's just a manipulation technique. That's a technique that's... They want to self-soothe in some way because they are dependent on your match of emotion that may or may not be healthy for you. I'm not saying that you have to be somebody who's closed off and you totally shut them out. That's not what I'm saying whatsoever. At the same time, I'm not saying that you have to be someone of just because they're mad, well, now you have to be mad. That's also just as unhealthy. So watch out for that. You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not somebody's outlet for all of their frustration and their anger and their insecurities that have been built up all their life.
- 32:26 – 46:33
“You are not a target”: using breath and questions to defuse rude behavior (TSA story)
- JFJefferson Fisher
This episode is a little bit different for the podcast. One, it's very early on a Saturday morning, and I wanted to record this so that I had the full day with the kids. So if it looks like my face hasn't woken up yet, it's because it hasn't. It's... We're in the middle of the book tour, which is going fantastic, but I wanted to make time to tell you what is on my heart. You ready? So my book has been out for a little over a week now, and it's been fantastic, amazing. The book tour is going wonderful. And as any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online. 'Cause you wanna know, are, are people gonna like the book? That's the whole... You get very nervous. Are, are, are you gonna deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen. "You are not a target. I was once told by my husband, 'You are an easy target and everyone knows it.' Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips." That's what I thought it would be. "No. It is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people." I, I was just taken aback by it. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says "Verified purchaser." This is my point with this, is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number one in my book, there are three rules. It's rule number one, say it with control. Number two, say it with confidence. Number three, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number one is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I, I, I can give you. None of it matters if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're gonna talk about, in this episode, what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Any time that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally, through its biology, reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments, even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you. When somebody disagrees with your opinion or they say something you don't like or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, "Hey brain, I, I didn't like that." And the brain goes, "Give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that." And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You wanna say something back. You get heated. Your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number one in my book is you use your breath as the first word that you say, and the reason why is because it adds distance between what they say
- JFJefferson Fisher
and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you, and it also mut- the other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, "I am threatened." Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic. Somebody merges. Somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, "I am threatened." That's where road rage comes from. "I feel threatened in this environment." When you're talking with your kids, when somebody, um, says something to you that they, they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, "Hey, that feels threatening to me." I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later, do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you, and we're gonna put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just, just feels like it sets you off? That just, you just explode when somebody does this to you. You got it? You find that word. Now, write it down, and right next to it, I want you to write, "Does not threaten me." Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, "Dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me." This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, "Hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, 'Hey, this does not threaten me.'" That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body, "What is happening in front of me is not a threat." Right? It's this idea that, um, you know, you have... You've seen the big animals, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have, like some, maybe a little dog or something. It- they, they just go, "What is this?" It's like a, a little animal coming up to a big animal. They're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, "Hey, what you're doing is, this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it." Cool? I'm gonna tell you a quick story right now that, um, I haven't... I don't think I've ever shared. This was, oh, maybe three weeks ago or so, and where was I? I might've... I, I think it was in San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's bl- blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early. Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate. Looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs, and then all of a sudden, I was outside of it, outside of the, the security. The gate, the terminal... It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal, and I had just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the, the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I had to... I started walking out, and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, where it has a red line there at the airport, and I walk out of it, and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look, and I go... I say this out loud. I go, "Oh, my gosh. I gotta do this all over again." Because I have to know I'm going further down where a separate terminal is. And I say, "Oh, my gosh. I s- I gotta do this all over again." And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice goes, "That's why you should read the signs, sir." And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, "You have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs." I don't know if you're feeling this, just hearing it to me. Just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? "That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself." And I remember being just taken aback. Uh, "Who, who, who are you?" And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible, and I... Hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There are some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was a middle-aged lady, uh, just looked so smug when... as soon as she said that. And this is what... My, my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was condescend- it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it... I looked at her for like five seconds trying to figure out, "Is this... Did she say that?" And I just give it time, and now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, "How do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Is it, does it give you joy?" That's what I said, like verbatim. And immediately she got red, like, um, ugh, and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I didn't have to prompt anything. She goes, "I, I'm, I'm sor- I'm sorry, sir. You're, you're right. I, that wasn't kind. You're, you're right, sir. I'm, I'm sorry. Yes, you, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down." And now she was in helping mode. Now she was in helping mode. "You can go right here, and this is where it's gonna be." I would say, "Oh, well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right. Well, you have a wonderful day." You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations, and their angers, and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about, uh, them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life, [laughs] how are you gonna react? What are you gonna say to that person? Are, are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that gonna ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me? Is that what... Excuse me, are you talking to me? I, I... You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not s- say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you, it's not gonna work. It ain't gonna work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that th- this is a good reminder for you. Wherever you are, I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm gonna continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time, and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These, these ways of responding to rude behavior, that is actually not a response. It's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "Let me s- you, you spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No. It is a reflection of their own behavior and character. And nine times out of 10, the other person sees that because they, because you're giving them time to, are seeing... It's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red. Uh, it's not blood. The red comes out of their system. You know, or somebody's seeing red. You have to give them time for that to g- go away, come back to normal, come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not... People are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication, and a better relationship, and a better life because of that. Cool? All right. You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day. We all have moments where our
- 46:33 – 54:39
Emotional intelligence as “emotional fluency”: three practical steps
- JFJefferson Fisher
emotions get the best of us, whether it's a hard conversation at work or a hard conversation at home. If you want to have more effective communication, you have to increase your emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence isn't just a buzzword. It is something that can transform the way you communicate, how you understand the other person, and more importantly, how you understand yourself. Emotional intelligence, I like to think of it as emotional fluency. In other words, I'm fluent in the language of my emotions. I can recognize my emotions, I can speak my emotions, and I can better identify those emotions in other people. And by increasing your emotional intelligence, you take more control over how you feel and how you can guide the interaction in the conversation. And I'm gonna tell you how to do that in three easy steps. Number one, use the phrase I need. It's as simple as that. Begin your response with I need. It's a very entry-level way of being emotionally intelligent. Number two, have something to learn, not something to prove. Too often we're fighting over who has the right answer rather than fighting to ask the right question. And number three, what triggers you, teaches you. So instead of focusing on what the other person is doing and why they're doing what they're doing, it's asking the reflective question of what is about what they're doing that is making my emotions feel out of place. Too often we think about our needs, our emotional needs in a given communication. We think about how we're feeling because we feel it bubbling to the top. I feel my emotions starting to rise up. I can tell I'm getting stressed out. I'm be- maybe my eyes are starting to water, and things are starting to, to, to rise and ignite within myself, and I don't know how to voice it. Instead, when you don't voice your needs and use the phrase I need, like I need a moment
- JFJefferson Fisher
I need to take a moment to digest what you just said. I need to take a break. I need to understand what you said." When you put out the words, "I need," it makes it to where you are voicing your emotions out loud instead of you bottling them all up, which increases that ignition, increases that, uh, tension in your body. You are saying it out loud. Say, "I need to understand what you're saying because it's making me feel a certain way." By s- putting out your needs or saying, "I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm not feeling myself," or as easy as saying, "I feel sad when you say that. I feel upset," or, "I feel defensive when you make that kinda comment or when you talk about this topic." Whenever you put these kinda statements out there, it's becoming much more emotionally intelligent because you're recognizing what is happening within your body. You're not just keeping it all in. You are voicing it to where you're able to share exactly what you need. Uh, it's okay to assert your needs in the conversation, to always feel instead like you're having to be walked on, that you have to cater to everybody else and to people please. Absolutely not. You are somebody that can voice their needs at any time in the conversation. So I want you to feel confident, and I want you to feel firm and to be able to say, "I need you. I need this. I need to talk about this." When you say, "I need," it makes it much more reflective and you emotionally more intelligent about how you're feeling in that moment. I use the phrase, "I need" a lot in my communication when I need to add time as a variable into the communication. Often, people rush things. They rush conversations when I'm not ready, when you're not ready. Uh, or I can tell my, the way I'm feeling is starting to bubble up and my, my heart's starting to beat faster. Whenever I feel that happening, you can increase your emotional intelligence, your emotional fluency by saying, "I, I need a moment." That's probably my most often. I need some time to, to think on this, to chew on this. I just need a, a pause for me to add some distance to help my, my body regulate and make sure my analytical is not allowing my emotional to take over. And that leads really to the, the second part, is having something to learn, not something to prove. And this is... Let me tell you why that's important. When you are focused solely on proving something to somebody, now that means you, um, you see this all the time. People feel like they have to or you have to change their mind. That's, that's trying to prove something. I'm trying to win against you. I need you to see things exactly the way I see them. I need you, I need you to agree with the exact type of way that my mind is thinking in this moment. When you're trying to prove a certain position against them, they often will tighten up and believe something even more. They, they become even more convinced that they're right the more you push to try and prove that they're wrong. So instead, you become much more emotionally intelligent when you realize that's happening within you, and you kind of become, you know, water off a duck's back is what the phrase I grew up saying, is water off a duck's back. In other words, you just let those kinda problems and emotions bead off of you to understand that you are much more concerned about what to ask them, the question to ask, and that means you have something to learn. When I can go into a conversation with somebody, especially when it's heated, and I can say to myself, "Am I trying to prove something, or am I trying to learn something right now in this moment?" You see how I can even tag that together? Hey, I, I need, I need to pause for a moment. Even five seconds, I can talk to myself and say, "Am I trying to prove something, or am I trying to learn something right now?" And too often it's me trying to prove something. And I can flip the whole dynamic of the conversation when I focus on, what's something that I can learn about them, something small, rather than me trying to force-feed them my opinion and then getting upset that they don't take it hook, line, and sinker. Instead, you have something to learn, not something to prove. And number three, lastly, what triggers you, teaches you. Now, this is one of my favorite phrases, uh, to talk about because it is so true, as much as I sometimes wish [laughs] that it wasn't. And that is when somebody has triggered you, in other words, they've done something that is raising, bringing up this negative adverse reaction, uh, to you, and you feel triggered by what they've done, often the first place we point the finger is at them to say, "I can't believe you did that. How do you dare do that? Why would you do that? You should know that what you did is gonna affect me that way." Emotionally intelligent people point the finger at themselves first. You know, having something to learn, not something to prove. And, and they ask the question, and they get curious and say, "What is it about what they did that is causing this reaction within me?" So we all have triggers. In other words, we all have a button that somebody can press, and the people that are closest with us, they're the ones that know these triggers the best. But too often, we don't ask the question ourselves. Now, yes, there's a trigger, and yes, there's a button, but why is there a button there in the first place? So why, why is there a button? What is it about this behavior that triggers me? What is it about what they said that is causing me to feel, uh, so out of place with my emotions? And we just don't ask that question. If you wanna be much more emotionally intelligent, you have to know your triggers. In other words, you have to know your buttons. And the reason why that's important is because you don't put yourself in positions for somebody else to press that button. You don't talk about things where you invite people to press that button. That's the hard part, is that you don't put yourself in a position to where you aren't going to be emotionally intelligent. Emotionally intelligent
- 54:39 – 1:09:47
Handling high-stress conflict like a legal client: observe, breathe, say less
- JFJefferson Fisher
people prevent themselves from being in situations where you're going to be triggered. That's, that's the hard part of it. Once you know your triggers, you know the areas to avoid, and in a circular fashion, it makes you much more emotionally intelligent. The key to handling conflict is not what you say. It is what you observe. In today's episode, I'm gonna teach you exactly what I teach every single one of my legal clients. So if you've ever wondered, "What's it like to be a legal client of Jefferson?" Well, today is your chance to do that. Today's the lucky day. We're gonna dive into how do you handle high-stress conflict situations and operate at a different level that you did not know was possible. All right. Now, let's keep going. When we talk about difficult, high-stress conflict, I'm, I'm talking about not just the little bitty everyday arguments. I'm talking about something that's on your plate that's coming up right now, and you go, "Jefferson, I don't know how to handle this. I, I don't know what to do. I, I'm afraid I'm gonna shut down. I'm afraid I'm gonna get nervous." I'm gonna tell you exactly what I tell every single one of my clients. You ready? Number one: it is not what you say. It is not anything to do with your mouth. It has everything to do with your nervous system, and the key here is instead of absorbing, you're observing. I'm gonna say it again. Instead of absorbing, you're observing. If you wanna h- handle conflict at a different level of consciousness that you did not know you could handle it, it is going to be the key of not absorbing what they say, but observing what they say. All right? Say it with me. Say it with me wherever you are. It's not absorbing. It's observing. All right? What does that mean? I want you to think... This is just coming to me right now. I want you to think you're in the grocery store, and you have your, your cart with you, and you're going through, and you... Or maybe, maybe you're somebody who likes a bag. You know? You, you, you have a... I'm, I'm all for environmentally friendly stuff, too, though it's hard here in Texas. And you have your cart, and you just start putting things on the shelf or grabbing things off the shelf and putting it in your basket that you, you don't even want. All right? You don't even want. And the things just start to come in. You're like, "Yeah, I... You know what? I'm gonna take their belittling opinion of me. I'm gonna put it in my cart. You know what? I'm gonna take their side eye, put it in my cart. I'm gonna take that, that disrespectful tone and put that in my cart." And you just keep going all the way through aisle by aisle, and then you go to checkout, which is actually a, a very good word for this. Yeah, you, you, you mentally check out, and you know what checks in? Your nervous system, your emotions, and they just flood you in that moment. And, and in, in that point in time, you have absorbed, you have taken on so many things that there's nothing left for you. You're not observing. You're not seeing what's happening. You're just in it. You're just in it, and you are helpless to it. It is no longer you who controls the emotions. The emotions are now controlling you, and there's no telling what you're gonna say. There's no... The... There's no... Nobody can guess what's gonna come out of your mouth or what's going to happen because you're not there. You are checked out. So when I tell my clients, "Hey, when you're in the chair and somebody is... the other attorney's asking you questions, there's gonna be a time where all of a sudden you're tempted to go in it, to, to, to go down the spiral and look inside and look at yourself and feel emotions and get heated because you're gonna start taking things personally. You're going to start absorbing what they're saying." No, no, no, no. If you want to handle this the right way, the proper way in conflict, you have to start observing. What does that mean? That means you're going to approach the conversation at a different level of consciousness that you have before. That means instead of going, "How, how could he say that to me? Oh, my gosh, I'm..." And you start holding your breath, and you start getting flustered, and you get nervous, or maybe you tear up. It's because you're not seeing it as, "Huh, I wonder why he's asking me this. I wonder why she's saying that. I wonder where they're going with this." Look for the intent behind the words, the intent behind the words. When you are observing what's happening, in some sense being an attached observer... I've said this before where you... It's like you are sitting in a movie theater with your popcorn, and you're watching the conversation take place, and that puts you in a different perspective of looking at the person who's talking to you and thinking, "I wonder why that character is saying this. I wonder what the plot is. I wonder what the narrative is. I, I wonder what scene is coming up next." And you see how when you look at it that way, you've have full control. You're now the director, the producer, the screenwriter of exactly what happens next, and then it's just action, and you're able to be in the state of mind of, "Hey, I'm observing the conversation." And from there, that gives you a chance to let your body regulate because you're not in it. You are seeing it. You're seeing the conversation. Number two: what I teach every one of my clients is something that's at the forefront of my book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And rule number one when I say say it with control, and that is let your breath be the first word that you say. I've been talking a little fast here in this podcast, which is unlike me. I think I, I'll tell you why. I drank too much coffee this morning, too much coffee admittedly. Usually, I talk pretty slow. All right? Can you hear how just the way I'm talking now and how I'm slowing down just a little bit might, in a micro percentage, also slow you down a little bit? Maybe, you know, the neural activity in your brain is starting to slow down just a little bit. Maybe you feel a little bit more relaxed at me speaking a little more slowly. When I put A breath before my words, it is making sure that I am regulating myself, and even more importantly, I am showing you, I am showing you that I am regulated, that I am in control, and what I'm about to say, I've chosen. I've chosen those words. Makes a very big difference. So when I teach my clients, "Hey, don't get wrapped up. Don't try and step on somebody's question. Don't try to interrupt them. Let them get it out, and then you observe the question, observe the, the interaction, take a breath, and then choose what you want to say." You are in complete control of the pace of any conversation. Nobody can make you say anything you don't want to say, and nobody can make you say it at a time you don't want to say it. That choice is yours. That choice is yours. And I cannot tell you how many clients I have seen come to find, accept, and then grow in their own power and their own sense of value and worth of, "Wow, I, I get to choose if I say anything. And you know what? If I wanna wait 30 seconds before I say something, I can do that." Uh, it's, it is a freeing feeling to know, "Mm, you know, I'm gonna think about this. Let me chew on this question for a second." Just that alone, the ability to say that says, "Oh, no, no. I'm, I'm operating at a different level you don't know about. No, I'm, I'm not who you thought I was. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to choose my words, and I'm going to show you that what I'm about to say is something that I absolutely mean and I'm saying with intention." All right? Y- can you feel the difference? Say, what kind of breath are we talking about? I've run through this breath before. It's always good to do it because it's something that is good for me, too. It's a conversational breath, and what it does, it's based on a physiological sigh, which is a double... Well, that kind of sounded weird. Double inhalation. A double inhalation. So you're breathing, you're inhaling twice. All right? So you ready with me? We're gonna breathe through your nose. Wherever you are, just do it. Don't worry about it. People might look at you. Don't worry. Ready? We're gonna breathe in through your nose about two to three seconds. [inhales] One more at the top, and then let out through your nose. [exhales] My guess is you're starting to come down a little bit. Maybe your shoulders relaxed a little bit. It's the feeling that mimics a sigh. When you use that kind of breath, and I promise you, you continue to do it while I'm talking right now, you'll see that you get really good at it. You can do it any time. The most crucial part for me is when I teach my clients to do it, is before they answer the question. Just take two seconds or one second. What we s- like to say here in the South is just say, "One Mississippi." In other words, in, in your head, you're gonna go, "Mississippi." [chuckles] Like, what... You, you can use your own name if you have a long name. You know, just whatever it is, it's, it's to get you in the mindset of taking a beat, a moment. Take that breath and choose what you want to say. It is always going to be better. And number three, the third thing that I teach every single one of my clients is to use less words. Say less. Now, in the legal context, if my witness starts to give a very long answer, you know what happens? Every... S- Why'd I say it like that? Happens? [chuckles] What happens is I guarantee them that the opposing attorney is now going to slice up that long answer they just gave and turn that into five more questions, 10 more questions. The shorter the answer, the stronger, more clear it is every single time. If I give you an answer that is short and concise, you can do nothing with it. You can do nothing with it. Hear the difference. So I might have a client who I've trained, and we, we practice a lot. And when she might take a breath and answer a question and go, "No," and that's it. That's the only answer. What the... What can the other attorney do? Nothing. They can't do anything with it. They can only go to their next question. But I've also had it, despite my training and teaching, where somebody goes, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, that... It was just such a hectic day, and, you know, I forgot to go pick up the eggs, and my, and my dog was sick, and, you know, he just... It, it just, you know, peanut butter messes up his system, and I, I just find that..." And you're going... And I'm going, "Oh, my gosh. What is happening?" So that happens. That happens because people are, are human, right? So we have to take a break, and I go, "What, what are we doing? Come on. Get back in it with me." So you see the difference in w- if somebody's giving a very long answer, some practical things happen. One is I'm giv- y- the witness is giving more information than is needed, all right, unnecessary information, which means the other person... And let's put this in everyday application. Everyday people are going to get confused as to what the answer is. They're going to fill in their own assumptions of why you're not answering it directly. They're going to hear that there's just more words, which just automatically leads to the possibility of more confusion and more miscommunication. We don't want that. We want short, concise. So I like to say it when I, when I teach, is that if I ask you, "Do you have the time? Do you know what time it is?" That means I'm going to ask you to stop and ask that question in your mind. Do I know what time it is? What am I asking? Do you know what time it is? And if you give me the time, "Oh, it's, um, 8:03," that's the wrong answer That's the wrong answer. If I say, "Do you know the time?" The answer is, "Yes, I do." It's that detailed. It is that detailed because in my world, it has to be that detailed. You have to be. In an everyday conversation, those high-stake, high-emotion, just when everything is on the, the table, everything's on the line, every little word of clarity matters a great deal, and I have to make sure that you're prepared. So when you condense your words into something that is very short, very concise, the longer of an answer you give, the more opportunity there is for miscommunication, the more opportunity there is for somebody to take your answer and twist it. Here's an example. Have you ever been in a text argument with somebody? I have. I know you have. And it... They just sent you something, and you're like, "Oh, really?" And you just start texting on your phone, just going after it, and you write a paragraph. I'm talking, you just... You hit 'em so good, and it's perfect, and you're... It's, it's, "This is exactly how I feel." And you send it, and they send a text that doesn't even address anything that you said at all. Or maybe they addressed one part that they could defend and like, but they ignored all the rest. It's that same principle. You're giving someone way too much to take and to twist. So if you want to handle high conflict like I teach every one of my clients, you have to keep your answers as short as possible. Answer their question and only their question. All right? Okay. Hey, look, you're, you're ready. You're ready. I know we, we... Maybe we're gonna need to talk about this. Let's go grab some coffee, make sure you get some snacks, feel good. We're about to go into this deposition room together, and you're gonna do awesome, I promise. What did we talk about today? When it comes to high-stakes conversation, number one, observe, don't absorb. Observe, don't absorb. Number two, use your breath [inhales] as the first word that you say. Slow it down and choose your words. Be intentional with them. Make sure that you are operating on your timeframe, not somebody else's. And number three, say less. Shorten your answers. When you give way too much, you allow the opportunity for somebody to grab onto it, pieces, and say things you didn't mean. You're giving them more to twist. You're giving them more to twist. It's like, uh, giving somebody a long piece of rope. They, they're able to put a bunch of knots in it. But if you just give 'em a little bit of rope, it... Maybe it's not even enough to do a, a, a, to tie their shoe with, right? It's a big difference. You wanna make sure that you're very short and concise. Man, my, uh, examples today are all over the place. We talked about the grocery store. We talked about shoelaces. Man, what a, what a day, what an episode.
- 1:09:47 – 1:25:11
Interview segment: pausing to co-regulate, “small talks,” and holding space
- SPSpeaker
And you really dive into nervous system regulation and explaining that, and it's something, frankly, we've had guests on to talk about that. We've done a lot of-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... a fair amount of study ourselves on that. But I never considered it in the context of communication.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Which is kind of odd because it's, like, probably the most important thing, which I'm... I, I guess that's why you started with it first. But can you unravel that?
- JFJefferson Fisher
The whole point of why rule number one in the book is say it with control is because if you do not have control, well, then none of the rest matters. It doesn't matter how, uh, quick of a statement I could give you, a twist of the word, a way to reframe. It doesn't matter a lick if you do not have control. And what people are so quick to forget is that you are in complete control of the pace of the conversation.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And I say that because I train, I prepare hundreds of clients for their deposition, and they get into this mentality of, well, if this person's asking me a question, this attorney's asking me a question, I need to have a rapid-fire response, or I, I need to be on the ready, or a- anything. And I have to continually remind them and say, "No, no, no, no. Listen, you are in control of the conversation. They can't ask a question faster than you can respond to it. There is nothing that they can do, nothing they can do to make you respond faster. Do you understand that? There's nothing anybody can do to force you to say something, force you to speak. It is all within your timeframe and timetable." And the sooner that people understand that, almost innately, the more in control they feel of themselves, of you can ask me a question, and I can choose to not answer it at all. I can choose to answer it in five seconds. I can choose, uh, anything that I want. But it's that pause that you can throw in there that truly is a, a, a game changer in all of your communications. You have to say it with control.
- SPSpeaker
What is the value of that? If you go at the other person's pace and sort of the natural trajectory of an argument, what's at stake there versus doing it the way you're talking about, putting a pause in?
- JFJefferson Fisher
When you don't put in a pause, when you a- don't add your breath, when, when you don't say it with control, you end up reacting rather than responding. It's, it's just your, your natural fight or flight will take over, and you're gonna start responding more emotionally. So attorneys will do this thing where we will start to ask questions faster, and you'll start to respond faster. That means you're thinking about your, your answer less, which means I'm probably getting the answer I want. And so whenever I can get you in this rhythm, the yes, no, okay, I don't know. Like, it's... The faster I can get you in that rhythm, the more if... the more I got you, the more I know I can lead you where I want to lead you. The witness I need to cross-examine, if I ask them a question And they immediately go, "Yes. Yeah, no, that's... Yeah, I think that's true. Yes." That quickness, I'm like, "Okay, they're not listening." But the, the witness who goes, "Yeah, I th- I think so. I think so," that right there I'm like, "Oh, dang. Okay, this is somebody-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... who I can't do anything with. It doesn't matter what I say, they're going to actually listen to what I'm asking them," and it's a, it's a much different... It's the same thing when I'm the one questioning the other attorney or, uh, I'm seeing another attorney. If there's another attorney who's asking questions and he's rapid-fire, sometimes he's not really thinking of what, hearing what the witness is saying, 'cause he's looking down at his next question, right? Same thing with, like, people who interview. They're not really listening to the person. They're looking at... They're worried of, like, "What's gonna be my next question?"
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Attorneys do that, too, and I know it's a good attorney if they have their notes and they just push them off to the side and they're just looking at my witness and, you know, they're taking their time before a question. I'm like, "Dang. Okay." They, they're, they're really-
- SPSpeaker
Here it comes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... they're locked in. Yeah. They're, there's somebody that you already know, okay, you, you, uh, you better be on your game.
- SPSpeaker
Well, it seems like in a personal relationship, too, it just really keeps it from escalating.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause once you get into that fight or flight thing-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... it spirals out of control.
- SPSpeaker
I had this actually happen recently. I was in a conversation, in a professional conversation, and it started to escalate, and it was kinda one of those things where it's like you're, you're sort of having an out-of-body experience in your head, like, "What's happening right now?" Like, "What-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... I said this, but why is the other person responding like that?" And m- I was on the, the more regulated end, but I was feeling myself kind of escalate, and I thought to, to myself in my own head, "Okay, wait a second. We are now in a place of fight or flight in this conversation. Like, the other person is not even hearing what I'm saying, is not able to-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... respond. Like, something else has gotten triggered here." And I realized I need to sort of be, you know, like in nervous system language, like, I need to be the co-regulator of I need to slow my voice down.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I need to make sure I'm breathing and relaxing my body, and I need to talk in ways that are very intentionally non-threatening, because we're not even talking about what we're talking about anymore, you know?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But it was, like, just such an interesting moment of, like, the kindest thing that I can do in this situation, 'cause it really wasn't an argument between us, it was j- it was about something else, was to take control of the situation by getting myself regulated so I could let them sort of borrow that regulation that they couldn't access in that moment, you know? And that was, that was kind of a profound realization of it's not-
Episode duration: 1:25:11
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode oRTlvUVn1Gg
