The Jefferson Fisher PodcastHow to Stay in Control During Heated Debates | Jefferson Fisher
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80 min read · 16,287 words- 0:00 – 2:01
Three go-to responses that stop defensiveness fast: “I agree,” “I’ve learned,” “That’s helpful”
- JFJefferson Fisher
Today I'm gonna give you my top three argument responses that will keep somebody from getting defensive. It's my favorite advice that I use every single day when I walk into the office. If they work for me, I promise they're gonna work for you too. When things start to get heated in a discussion, and you can tell things aren't going well and temperatures are on the rise, here are three responses that you can use right away to help turn a potential argument back down to a conversation. Number one: you tell them what you agree with. You tell them what you agree with. Now hear me out. That does not mean you need to agree with a single word of what they said. Instead of focus on the content of the message, instead focus on the subject matter. For example, "I agree that this topic is worth discussing. I agree that we need to have this conversation." When they hear the phrase, "I agree," it automatically breaks down their wall. Number two: you tell them what you've learned. You tell them what you've learned. For example, "After listening, I've learned that this topic is important to you." When you say, "I've learned," it makes them feel like they've educated, it makes them feel like they're teaching, and it makes them feel like you're growing in the conversation, and makes them less defensive. And number three: you tell them what's been helpful. You tell them that they've been helpful. For example, "That's helpful to know." It's as easy as that. "Thank you for telling me. That's helpful to know." Whenever they hear that phrase, "help" or "helpful," it makes them feel like they've invested in their own mutual understanding, and it makes them less defensive. Now, as you can imagine, I use these phrases all the time because in my profession as an attorney, I deal with conflict every day. I get hired to handle somebody else's conflict, and the crazy part is somebody else hires a, an attorney of their own to have conflict with me. And so there are multiple ways where I have to use phrases that dampen conversations, that stop things from getting too hot and heated.
- 2:01 – 3:02
Why defensiveness ends communication—and the need for genuine intent
- JFJefferson Fisher
And these phrases, why I like them so much, is that they help smooth things over. When I can tell someone that I agree with something about what they said, even the topic itself, even though it's surface level, even though it's macro level, just saying that to them calms it down. Or what they've been helpful, or I've learned something, or I'm thankful for something, it helps keep the fire down. And too often, uh, in my line of work, people want to push and push and push and feel like they can win an argument. Instead, rather than letting them get defensive, I smooth it down. Because you and I both know once somebody gets defensive in an argument, it's over. Game over. You're gonna have... Time has to pass before you can reach somebody. When somebody gets defensive, that communication is on lockdown for a while until it calms down. Uh, so the idea with these phrases is that you never have to have that pause where they get
- 3:02 – 6:03
Going macro with “I agree”: align on the topic, not the details
- JFJefferson Fisher
defensive and you have to wait and then start over again. Instead, it always keeps the levels low. Soon as somebody gets defensive, the communication shuts down. These phrases help that not happen. So let's go deeper on response number one. When you tell somebody what you agree with. Big emphasis here. That does not mean that you need to agree with the content of their message. This is not about who's right and who's wrong. Your, your, your focus is in the wrong place if that's where your mind is going. As um, as a way to think about this, instead of arguing over where the chair should be located around the kitchen table and where you should, uh, position the couch and rearrange the furniture, that's too detailed. Go bigger. Where are you gonna live? What city do you live in? What street are you on? You're going big macro into this communication, not into the nitty-gritty details. So instead of focusing on, "I don't agree with what you said," forget that. Go to the subject. Do you agree that this subject is worth talking about? If you do, you find something about it that you can agree on. For example, "I agree that this is something we should talk about. I agree that this is a conversation worth having." That is incredibly powerful stuff. Somebody is trying to talk to you, and you can feel that they're getting defensive, and you just calmly say, "I agree that this is something we should talk about. I agree that we should talk about this. I agree that this topic is worth discussing." Instantly, it's gonna pull down their guard. They're gonna go, "Oh, great. Okay, we can have some communication. We can communicate. He, he... This person does understand." There is gonna be acknowledgement there. And so you keep the argument, uh, down. You, you go back to a conversation because they don't feel like they have to, to push and press and prove to you. So these are phrases that really do mean a lot. With the disclaimer here, I wanna make sure I add this, you have to make sure that when you use these phrases that I'm teaching you, you do them with true intent. Don't use these phrases to manipulate somebody. So don't say you agree that this conversation is worth having when you don't. Don't say that you agree that this is, this topic is worth, is worth discussing when you don't. That's, that's manipulative. When you try to control their emotions in a way that is not true and not genuine, that is a bad place to go, and I don't want you to use these phrases for that. Th- these phrases are when your intent and heart is true in it. So don't... If you don't find that what they said was helpful, if you don't find that you've learned something, then don't say that. But if you have, I'm gonna ask that you be more objective in the conversation rather than trying to pin and poke in every which way to make them wrong and, and try to control their behavior. That's manipulative, and I don't want that to happen. So with number one, the focus here is don't focus originally on the content. Focus
- 6:03 – 8:18
“I’ve learned…” and “That’s helpful”: turning conflict into collaboration and connection
- JFJefferson Fisher
on the structure of the conversation. That is, can you agree that this communication needs to happen? And if you can, use that phrase because it's going to make them less defensive. On the second response ... where you tell them what you've learned. I want you to put yourself in position of student and teacher in that moment. You are trying to, what we've talked about in other episodes, you're having something to learn, not something to prove. So when you can use the phrase, "I've learned," "Um, thank you for telling me. I, I've learned something new here. I've learned this topic is important. I learned that you really care about this. I learned this is special to you." When you say, "I've learned," it, it makes it a student-teacher mentality to where you're saying, "This is something new for me. I am getting this information, I am now inputting it into my system, and I've learned something. We're growing, we're progressing in this communication." And it makes them less defensive because it, it makes them feel like they've taught something. They're going, "Great, I, I have shared a part of myself that you are taking and acknowledging and accepting, and now we can have this communication without me feeling like I have to get defensive in any way." It's very much the same thing for response number three, and that is you tell them that they've been helpful. The, the word help is very critical there because everybody loves to be helpful. They want to feel like they've been helpful. People just... It makes us feel good if I feel like I've helped somebody else. It makes me feel good if I can help somebody, uh, understand more about me or understand more about something else that's important to me. So when you are in that position where they have shared something with you and you can say, "That's helpful to know," instantly it relieves that pressure of them having to feel like they're proving something to you, that they have to get defensive. You're saying, "That's, that's helpful for me to know." And so you are telling them, "You're being helpful to me." They're going, "Great. Awesome. Okay, we can be in this together. I help you, you help me. That way we can communicate." It's that, uh, two levels of there's understanding and acknowledgement, and when you have that together, that's called connection, and it's an awesome thing.
- 8:18 – 11:38
Calm presence as a de-escalation tool: modeling, mirroring, and nervous-system matching
- SPSpeaker
Lots of questions going through my mind of what I wanna ask you next.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Um, you have a very calming demeanor, by the way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, we just, we just met, you know, 10 minutes ago-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... 15 minutes ago, and I, I came on to the recording, I was, like, super frazzled, was a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... couple minutes late, and just the first few words out of your mouth, I was like, "Oh, he's a calm presence."
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
He has, like, a very soothing voice and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... felt my, you know, felt my frustration and anxiety decrease a little bit just with that. Is that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... intentional? Like, have you intentionally learned how to present yourself and how to show up in a certain way, um, in order to just deflate a situation?
- JFJefferson Fisher
The answer is that comes naturally from what I have, what's been modeled for me.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I, I, I have... I will absolutely say that I have been blessed in a way to see models of diplomacy in my family and how they handle and address conflict. I'd grow up, I'd get so mad... I mean, I'm a teenager. I'm getting mad at my mom. She's trying to control me. She's trying to do this. And I'd come to Dad and Dad'd go, "So?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know? I'm like, "But, But Dad, I got this, this, this. You don't understand." He'd go, "So?" You know, I mean, and it would, like, ah, man, what... Yeah, he's, he's, he's right. And so his whole thing was, you know, "Hey, d- don't make that your Alamo." In other words, don't... Is that the hill-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you're gonna die on? Really? And he was just so good at, like, deconstructing a lot of the ways I would, I would feel that, and it became very natural to me and my demeanor to slow down.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And as an attorney especially, I very much hone that behavior because my sole job is to send my clients into just intense conflict.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I have to train them and teach them and calm them down in, in very, um, significant ways. And a part of that is what I've learned now, now that I've, like, working backwards of why, why is that, um, that my lower voice or using a calming voice, a slower register, which comes very natural to me, actually makes other people's, um, their, their sympathetic nervous system, like, it matches their energy and the frequency to calm them down.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So they oftentimes... It would be different if I came on and I just started yelling or I was really intense. You're gonna also feel that intensity, so we tend to mirror each other. And so when I come in and I'm a lot more calming and talking about our day-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and how's your morning going, then your body's like, "Oh, I like... Okay, I can match this frequency." And then it-
- 11:38 – 16:24
Relationship conflict scenario: late spouse, kids present, and why “why” triggers defensiveness
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm. So let's put it in a context. Let's say, um... Let's, let's put it, I assume for your readers, it's marriage, it's relationship.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's put it, let's put it, uh, contextually. They, they come into the kitchen. What's, what's happening?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Okay. They come into the kitchen, and let's say they're... It's a... Let's say it's a wife.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
She's been working hard all day, getting the house clean, making dinner, and for the fifth night in a row, her husband is not home on time for dinner like he said he was going to be. And it's not just the fact that he's not home. Uh, it's, "He doesn't respect me. He doesn't love me. This isn't right."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And so he comes in, and he doesn't see what the big deal is, and she's upset and feels ... disrespected and unloved. And what she says to him is, "Why are you never home? Why don't you wanna be with me? You need to change. Like, we have to start spending more time together," so on and so forth.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm. That's hard.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And let's, let's make it even harder. Let's say kids are around.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right?
- SPSpeaker
Let's, absolutely. They're sitting-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... at the dinner table.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, let's-
- SPSpeaker
They're sitting right there
- JFJefferson Fisher
... yeah, let's make it more [laughs] let's make it even harder. Kids are sitting at the dinner table. They're already finishing dinner, and husband comes in late.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So mom has a choice at that moment. Do I, do I address this now, or do I address this later? Now that, I think the first part of it is, is personal preference. I would recommend that it is not addressed in front of the kids. That's just my, that's my personal belief. I grew up in a household that if you wanted to have a significant argu- you know, conversation, even if it was an argument, it needs to be done away from child's ears because they don't, they don't understand the context.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, and I don't, I don't believe that kind of behavior, should it turn ugly, should be modeled in, in front of kids-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... if you, if you can't have it in a healthy way. But it sounds like under our scenario, it's not gonna be had in a, in a very healthy, healthy way. So dinner goes exactly as it should. You can either choose to address, say, you know, "Hi, Dad's here. Let's finish dinner. Let's have bed." Let them have a good night of sleep. Let them-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... have a good night's rest. Then you turn to address the conversation in, in the room. What you don't wanna do is start off with a why. Like, pu- pushing the why question. Yes, that's the question you want to know, but when you put it in terms of a why, it very much feels like a challenge. So it pushes a threat to our, our body of challenging your autonomy. It challenges your competence. If I were to just say to you, Kimberly, y- let's say you did something, I said, "Why'd you do that?" Our immediate response is, "Because I wanted to." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know?
- SPSpeaker
Who are you to question me?
- 16:24 – 19:50
Boundaries vs. understanding: when empathy is not enough
- JFJefferson Fisher
Most of the time, if you just... Like, typical scenario, right, Kimberly, is they come home late, kids are down. "Great, so you're just gonna be... I guess you're just never gonna be home. Is this what it is? Like you said you were gonna be home the other week." You have no clue what happened in his day. Who, who knows? It could be something where it's, uh, maybe something at work, maybe it was traffic, maybe it was... Who knows? So you always have to have a pause to understand what's, what's really happening in their world. If it is a complete sign of disrespect that they know that they're being late and they just don't wanna be around-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that's much more of a boundary that you, that you need to put up and be much more assertive and aggressive with it. Um, that means that sounds more along the lines of, "I'm interested in a relationship that shows up. If you're not interested in that, in being with us at dinner, I need to know that now." There are times where I think you need to ask them in ways that want them to talk to you rather than want them to close up to you.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So often we feel like the answer is to attack when that just makes them clam up more, rather than trying to be understanding of what, what is it about, what is it about us that makes you not wanna be here? Uh, and that, that starts to crack that a whole lot more.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm. And it also... I mean, the other part of that is being able and willing to hear what they might honestly say.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Because sometimes those answers back might be, "Well, no, there is something about us that makes me-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... not wanna be here, and here it is," right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And then that can lead to a cycle of poor interaction, [laughs] poor communication.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah. And it's-
- SPSpeaker
Um-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, you'll get in a circle. Yeah, it is.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How many times you get in a, in a... It's cyclical, where you're getting in a argument-
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you come to the same place, but it just gets worse.
- SPSpeaker
It just gets worse. And, and Jefferson, I can imagine that, you know, with have- you having a history, a family history, a professional history, just the experience in your life, the, the, the... What's the word I'm looking for? Like, the importance that you have put on communication just in general-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... for you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You probably tend to show up communicating well in your, in your conversations and in arguments. But there are probably people that you get in arguments with or disagree with, and they don't give the same kindness back, right? Like, they don't think of not using, not saying it in a challenging way-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... and saying why, right? So how do you handle... So we can still continue to use the example of the, the wife who's mad at the husband. So let's say the wife is doing all these things. She's-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... approaching it in the right way, not asking why, but looking to see what the core issue is. But he is using all the wrong communication styles and blaming her and X, Y, and Z, and she's having to, like, keep her calm in the middle of a very difficult conversation. How would you recommend to continue on in that conversation when the other person is difficult to talk to?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, yeah. Well, that's, that's just about any argument. They're gonna be difficult to talk to-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- 19:50 – 23:52
Framing the conversation: name a positive truth and set an end-goal before you begin
- JFJefferson Fisher
So what has been very beneficial for me is that I frame my arguments at the outset.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, so let's say I'm the wife in this situation, and I know deep down he's a good dad or that he really loves us. That's not the issue. You know, there's not a fear of, like, are you going around? Do you not love me? That's, that's not the issue. It's just he's not, he's not coming home when he says he's gonna come home.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, to me, you can frame a conversation by, one, acknowledging what you know and a quality you want them to have. So if you and I, Kimberly, in a, may- let's say you and I are in an argument, and I can start at the outset of saying, "Look, I know that being on time is important to you. I know that attention to detail is important to you. I know that respect is important to you." Whatever quality I want you to have at that time and want you to show up in, I say it. I speak that over the conversation. So if I am the wife-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... I said, "Look, I know that you love us and you love our children." And so you get what I mean? At the outset, boom, you've, you've set the tenor of they are now not gonna be feeling threatened of, "I have to show you how much I love you, but I do this, but I do that, but I, I mowed the yard, but I, I did this. I paid the bills. I'm working." Like, I, I know, I know that you work hard for us and our family. Boom, I've already calmed it down. That's, that's, you- you've hit a, a fear that they could have. Then you frame it. You put an end to the conversation. Not, not an end, but you put a backstop to it. "I wanna have a conversation with you, a real conversation with you about you coming home late, and at the end of it, I wanna know why you're not coming home late and ways that we can think together of making sure you're home on time. I wanna be a help to that." Boom, you've now put a backstop on it, saying, "Hey, we're gonna have this conversation. Maybe it gets ugly. Maybe it gets tense. But I've already claimed at the end of it, this is how I want this to go. Can you agree to that?" And when you get their buy-in into the conversation on the end, that's always better. So a lot of times, um, you don't have to agree how to get there. You just have to be aligned on the goal.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So if you can get them to buy in on, "Are you willing to engage in a conversation with me about ways we can get you here on time?" They, if they're down for that, okay, then let's, then let's talk about it. What's, what's happening? Uh, you're gonna find way more success than that in this just throwing darts game.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because that's, typically we just like to send zingers, things that can hurt. "I'm here with the kids. You're not."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"I have this. You're not." And all you're doing is making-- You're hurting them, you're def- making them defensive, and you're not at all addressing the true issue.
- SPSpeaker
A key takeaway I took from what you just said is entering into the conversation with a goal.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And how often do people not?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Every time. I mean, how many times have we been in an argument and you think to yourself-
- SPSpeaker
Exactly
- JFJefferson Fisher
... uh, "How did this start? Where, where was I going-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- JFJefferson Fisher
... where was I going with this?" You go round and round [laughs] .
- SPSpeaker
Where am I wanting to end, ri- or even like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly
- SPSpeaker
... what's the point? [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
That too. You go, h- one, you say, "How did we even, how did we start?" And then, "How do we get out of this argument? Like, we've just, we've lost our way. How did this even begin? You started talking about ironing clothes, and next thing you know, you're talking about, you know, something that happened in 2007 on a, a bad date that you had." Like, you just-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you never know.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. You never-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Goals, goals, knowing what you want it, the end goal to be before you even start often cuts down a lot on the fluff.
- 23:52 – 25:54
Cross-examination mode: why courtroom tactics damage intimacy
- SPSpeaker
So you and your wife-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... do you just have [laughs] super effective communication, clear-cut arguments that have a goal in mind, like... Or does she ever get frustrated that she's up against someone who's, like, a pro at communication? Or do you ever get [laughs] frustrated-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah. Well, uh-
- SPSpeaker
... 'cause maybe she's better at it than you. Who knows?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, she's an attorney too, actually.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, my.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, yeah, but we've known, we've known each other f- since we were teenagers. So, um, knew each other long before we were attorneys.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And all it means in terms of an attorney is that she just knows- If I ever, if, well, either one of us ever go into cross-examination mode, um, um-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Explain what that means for the listeners
- JFJefferson Fisher
... uh, that means I'm, I am asking questions to prove a point.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, I'm using my questions to prove my point for me. And so if I wanted... Ah, let's think of a scenario. If I wanted to prove that, you know, you've left the g- garage door open. I don't know, I'm just making something up, and she's saying, "No, I didn't." My cross-examination mode is, um, you know, "You had, you had carpool that day, yeah? You, you, you left after I did, yeah? I didn't get home before you, did I? No. You're the one who left the garage door open." Like, y- you... Like, I'm, I'm poking, I'm using my cross-examine- my questioning to prove my, my point. So-
- SPSpeaker
But isn't that effective in the courtroom?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's, it's not beneficial for interpersonal relationship. It- it's, [laughs] it's-
- SPSpeaker
Only for the courtroom
- JFJefferson Fisher
... yeah, yeah. I just mean that to say that we're both very aware of when we go into that mode-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and as soon as we do, we're very quick to say, "Do not cross-examine me. Oh, yep, sorry." Like, it's, it's a, it's just a habit. You can't, you can't really help it, but we're very aware of, of when that's happening.
- 25:54 – 29:57
Control the pace: breath-first, slow responses, and stopping emotional flooding
- SPSpeaker
When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm, um... it's getting away from me, let's say that. That could be a sales negotiation, it could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. Um, I feel like in my case, most of the time it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one, number six is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace and the way that you communicate, even on the show today and even in your content. You do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that, like, tonality and pacing. Yeah, let's talk about that in a conversation, 'cause with my... When emotions run high, oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up, where my, my, uh, intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace, and what does that even mean?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I love that you picked up on that.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The... Anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, it is... That's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things, and that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're, you're either nervous. Same thing when you're really mad. You might stammer, and you might go like, "No, no, no, that, that, that's not..." And you're having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination, and I'm fe- just offering them up to the wolves, is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever y- they ask you a question and you give a rapid-fire answer back or, worse, you start to step over their question 'cause you already see where it's going, bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, "Oh, I, I... That's... Oh, man, that's not what I mean." And you, you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference if you were to ask me, if, if you said, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "Good. It was real good. I mean, it was re- it was, it was really good, thanks," versus, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "It was good. It was a good day." Like, you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with... That's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're at, you're at work and all of a sudden you go, "What's wrong? What happened? What, what, what's going on?" And you... All you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying, "All right. What happened? Give it to me." Like, people are looking, like we said, for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And what's that gonna do is keep your analytical side engaged into where you do not allow yourself emotionally f- to get emotionally flooded, and the bene- second benefit is neither does the other person because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.
- 29:57 – 36:03
“Never win an argument”: the cost of victory and the goal of unraveling the knot
- JFJefferson Fisher
The never win an argument mindset is something I believe so strongly in because I have seen the opposite turn out to be false every single time, where you always set out to win. And there are, are books that are titled, "Win Every Argument." There are blogs, "How to Win Every Argument." And I would read those and just shake my head because I just see that as such just snake oil salesman, just this how could you possibly try and teach this to people? Because that's just not real life. It's not real life. Um, even as an attorney And people say, "Look, you should... Don't you win every argument?" No, absolutely not. Um, it, it's, it's, it's n- nothing's in a vacuum. As an attorney, I don't really win arguments. I, I have facts. I can't, I can't choose my own facts, that when a client comes in, they have to give me what, what the problem is, a- and I have to run with that. I gotta play the cards that are dealt. Same thing with the law. I can't change the law. I can't choose which law applies. It's not like you get a, a choice, A, B, C, D, all the above. Like, there's n- you are confined to a set of parameters, and you have to do what you can do best, which is advocate for your client based on the parameters that are set. And you have a judge, you have a court reporter, you have a bailiff, you have opposing counsel, and you have 12 jurors, or maybe six if you're in a county court, and it's up to them, the decision-makers, to apply what you give to the law under the rules of evidence to come to a decision, period. You see how many layers there are?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's not just what I say. Now, I will say there's a huge power in the influence I have over a jury, and it has little to do with what I say, but it has almost everything to do with how I make them feel, how I ex- uh, how I carry myself, how I, my client carries him or herself. It is all this micro details. It's not this big... The person who comes in and is grandiose, just slinging, thinking they're everything, they're the one that's going to lose almost every, every time. The person who thinks that they have it all prepared, the person who comes in with the shiny s- uh, you know, the fancy suit, Rolex, shiniest shoes you've ever seen, they came in in their Mercedes, I'll show you that's an attorney who will lose, uh, because it's not relatable to a jury, never is. In fact, I'll even tell you this. Some of the best trial attorneys that I've seen, of course, they make lots of money, um, but they also don't go to court in that vehicle. They have other vehicles that are old, in use, that they keep, they've had their whole life. This is, like, the vehicle they had-
- SPSpeaker
That's hilarious
- JFJefferson Fisher
... when they first started out, because they don't want the jury to see it. And so they won't wear their fanciest stuff. They won't drive the fancy... uh, wear all their fancy stuff. They will be as normal as they can possibly be because that is relatable. Um, so it's, it's funny how even when you pull into that parking lot in front of the courtroom, you are, you are on display at all times. And so the jurors will watch every move that you make.
- SPSpeaker
So why do you say never win an argument? 'Cause that, that's kinda like all of us fantasize, you know, five minutes after we've had the argument, we're, like, thinking through what we should have said or what we could have said-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... which, by the way, goes to the title of the book. But-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... yeah, just back that up a little bit.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The question is, do you always wanna win an argument? When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship. Like, if you only see it as something to win, that means you're going to lose a lot more. Let's ask the question of what have you won? Okay, I said the thing that hurts you. I said the one thing that took it too far. Now you're leaving the room. Now you wanna hang up the phone. Now you're the one who's upset, and I'm the one left standing there alone. What have you... Congrats. What did, what did, what have you got?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now you've, you've most likely won to be the first to apologize, really. That's, that's what you've won.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] That's so true.
- JFJefferson Fisher
In, in relationships especially, like, uh, married, you've won to be the first to apologize, the one who's the last one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. 100%.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The one who says the thing the last, who has to say, who has to be the last one to get the word, you're first up to apologize. Congrats. Swing away. Like, it, it is just this mentality that we have to have of being competitive in conversation and heated arguments where that's just, that's... You will lose that. You're gonna lose their respect, you're gonna lose their trust, and over time you're gonna lose the relationship. I mean, who, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right? I mean, who... That, that is somebody who is lonely.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I mean, that is somebody who will eventually isolate themselves out because nobody's gonna wanna be around that person. What I teach, and the, the whole thesis of this book is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, meaning we, we... You're gonna take the loose ends. Like, if I have... There's a direct string between me and y'all, and I'm saying, "No, you have to go my way," and you're saying, "No, you have to go my way." Well, all that knot does is it gets tighter and tighter, and the harder we pull and the longer we pull, the harder it becomes to undo, the harder it becomes to unravel. And sometimes it takes all day to unravel it. Maybe it takes a week before emotions die down and you're willing to look at it. Or sometimes, you know what? It's, it's over a year. Some people haven't spoken to their adult child or their parent in whatever it is, and it happens to the closest of people.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They haven't spoken in years because of how tight they made that knot. And so that's that. The quicker you are to apologize, the quicker you are to, to start seeing where they're coming from, that, that knot never tightens.
- 36:03 – 39:08
Persuasion without domination: connection, coordinated decisions, and respectful disagreement
- SPSpeaker
Okay, Jefferson, I have to play devil's advocate for a second. So there are times that you want to persuade someone. You know, maybe there's a lot at stake. Maybe there's something really important that needs to happen. Um, my husband and I are dealing with this right now in an extended family situation. But in a situation where you do wanna persuade somebody, it's not about winning per se, but you w- but you need to move them maybe for their own best interest. First of all, is that valid? Second of all, how is that different from, like, winning an argument, and do you help people learn how to be more persuasive but in a way that ultimately is good for a relationship?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Great question. Winning has to do with I'm the last one standing, and you know I have won. That's very different from we need to take action, and I need your cooperation, or I need you to understand, and I need to connect with you on the action that's going to be taken. Winning says, "I have no respect really for your feelings. I have no respect for, uh, your point of view. I'm willing to say whatever it takes for you to go away." That... As you know, that has the, the fight or flight. It's the... It's this mindset of I am going to be the king of the, the rock, whatever it is, the king of the mountain, the king of the hill, the person that's left here. I'm the one that is right. You're the one that is wrong. Got it? That's, that's winning. Um, the mindset of we have a choice to make, and either you're gonna be with me on this choice or you're not, either way, it's gonna be fine with me. I'm still gonna respect you. I'm still gonna understand you. I'm still gonna hear your opinion. Like, my dad would put it to me this way growing up. If I disagreed with something, um, uh, let's say I'm 17, a lot of things I think I know the way of the world, and I would disagree with what he'd say. Anytime I would complain, he'd say, "Well, you don't have to like it. You just gotta understand it." I mean, it, it would be his, like, way of telling me, you know, "Hey, you... Feel free to disagree. This is what we're gonna do."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, and, [laughs] and so it, it was such a good lesson. Now, I didn't appreciate it, I can promise you that, but it, I... Now I have the, f- the, the hindsight of saying, uh, he, he gave me the freedom to disagree, and it took all the fight out of it. It was I'm giving you a chance to connect with me. I'm giving you a chance to understand where we're going, and that's, that's the key with connection, is you can... I can still d- disagree with you and still connect with you. I can still, I can still be unhappy. I can still be mad at you and still connect with you. So if you need to come to a mutual decision on something, that's very different. That is more of a coordinated dance-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... um, where there is going to be an exit from this. A win of an argument says, "I am pushing you out of it." Very different.
- 39:08 – 1:01:58
The power pause: long silence, mirroring, and questions of intent after disrespect
- SPSpeaker
You say we have one of the best great secret weapons of pausing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
So talk to me about, in that moment, if you start to feel the heat, you start to boil, your blood's boiling 'cause someone's being disrespectful to you, they're dismissing you, take me through the exact steps of how do you pause-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm
- SPSpeaker
... how do you, uh, collect your mindset, and then come up with a good response?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, so what I talk about is the difference between short pauses and long pauses, and when somebody says something disrespectful, what you want is a long pause that's somewhere between about five to eight seconds. It's just a, a few seconds of allowing the other person to hear what they said because let's say you said something negative to me. Visually, one, it's gonna give me the feeling of confidence when I s- see that word come and just fall to the ground-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and understanding I don't have to pick that up, and it's kind of in that silence you're looking at it going, "Is that, is that what you wanted to say? Does that feel good? That, that right there, are you looking at what I'm looking at?" And that right there automatically makes them feel more powerless, and you feel more in control.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
In that pause, you are being their echo. You're being their mirror. So often, if somebody were to say something ugly and I say nothing at all, often what they do is they, they say it and hear it back in their mind, and often people might apologize and go, "I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that," or they rephrase it, or you can ask the person a, "Was that supposed to..." These are questions of what I call intent. So, "Was that supposed to hurt me?" See how a question doesn't respond in the way of sending that zinger back at them. It's a way of answering without answering. "Did you mean for that to hurt me? Was that supposed to embarrass me?" And you see how the power is not sending the zinger to say, "I'm gonna make you hurt even worse." The power is when they throw a punch, you go, "Uh, that didn't hurt." So that's, that's the control that you have in that moment.
- SPSpeaker
And I assume tone matters 'cause even just the way you said it was so calm. "I assume that was supposed to hurt me."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"Or why did you say that?" Versus, like, "I assume that was supposed to hurt me."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"Why did you say that?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- SPSpeaker
So take me through how it can be perceived as you're losing control versus actually you have control of this, the conversation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I mean, you can use just what we did as an example. So if I were to say, "You can't talk to me like that. Are you kidding me?" Versus, "You cannot talk to me like that." Now, which one sounds more in control?
- SPSpeaker
Oh, definitely the second one.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's definitely the second one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And nothing changes except that you're speaking a lot slower, which shows I'm in control of my words, and it also shows I'm in control of my actions.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
'Cause when that fight or flight kicks in, which you know all about, you get that emotion. Your heart starts to beat. You get nervous. You start to shake. Your voice might tremble a little bit. You get tears in your eyes. It's just emotional flooding. You're telling your body in that moment, when you're not taking a big pause and a big breath, you're telling your body, "I have a lot to fear right now."
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"I have a lot to be afraid of, so I have to be extreme. I have to say that extreme thing. I have to g- go all out." Versus when you slow down and you speak slowly and even in a lower tone, you're not only conveying control, you're also telling your body, "This, there's nothing to fear here."
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"There's no- nothing to threaten me. I'm safe." And that right there is an incredibly powerful move, uh, that you can flip that script on them to show that there's nothing here that's, that's threatening me in some way. So that's what a lot of the pausing does, is it gives a lot of space for them to realize that what they wanted is not what they're going to... How I see it is when you say that ugly thing, you put it out on a ledge. Like, you exposed it. And you're hoping, you're praying that somebody will take it. Have you ever thrown an insult and then they didn't give it back?
- SPSpeaker
Probably.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, and then you go, "Ah, I kind of feel like a jerk later." You realize, "Oh, that didn't hit," and then you feel kinda stupid because what you sent out, it didn't get the response. You didn't get the control, and now you feel kinda silly about it. So that's, that's how you do that. So if I had to break that down, it'd be, one, you wanna add about a five to seven, seven-second pause, a long pause. Two, you wanna do it long enough to make them hear their words back, and often you can just repeat what they said back to them. So if you said something ugly like, "Jefferson, you're an idiot," and I wait a five seconds, I said, "I'm an idiot?" Perfect. Three is you're, you're allowing them to show... You can ask questions of intent. "Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt me or offend me?" And, uh, oftentimes that's all you really need to do to realize it's not gonna be that fun for them the second time around.
- 1:01:58 – 1:26:38
Silence, confidence, and active listening: questions, mirroring, and ‘don’t step on the cry’
- SPSpeaker
No, absolutely, man. I, I absolutely love that. And I wonder then, if we are dealing with someone, you know, in that situation where they're talking back at us, we finish our thought and they're almost into theirs before we could even finish ours. You know, they're cutting over us, they can't wait to talk, and you're thinking, "They're not listening to me. They're just queuing up what they're gonna say next when I'm talking." How do we deal with someone like that and turn that conversation into an effective one or an effective argument? How do we combat when we can tell that someone's not listening to us?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I mean, se- several things go through my head. It's, it's definitely contextual.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The, the first thing that goes into my head is, "Why are we talking to this person?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
But, but let's say it's a, it's a good conversation and they are certainly not interested in what you have to say. Let's say it's somebody who's pushing their point or wanting to prove a point, and they're wanting you to, um, contribute in some way. A lot of the time, uh, the first thing I'll ask is, "Is this something you need me to agree with?" I'll ask that. I'll say, "Is this something you need me to, to agree on?" And typically they'll say, "No. No, I don't, I mean, I just needed to tell you about, you know, X, Y." Well [laughs] okay. Because beforeth- I don't, I'm not telling them this, but beforehand they're pushing, you know?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They're pushing, pushing. "Well, don't you think?" "Well, why don't you..." Like, every time you try to explain yourself they're cutting you off to try and corner you to eventually just concede to their point. Typically, I get rid of that by in the first second question of saying, "I- is this some... Hey, just let me... Is this something that you're needing me to, to a- for, for us, is this something we're needing to agree on?" That's what I'll ask. "Is this something we need to agree on?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When I ask that, it totally changes the frame of, um, them saying, "Actually, no, I, no, we're just having a discussion." Great. Good.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Me too. If somebody is pushing, um, interrupting you all the time, I, I have a kind of a, what's the word, some, some arrows in my quiver of how I, I handle that. And usually I let them interrupt the first time, but the second time I will tell them calmly, say, "I, I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I'll say, "Hey, look, all right, Lewis, I ca- hey, man, I, I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And most of the time, it's the same way it works with my kids. [laughs] Like, when my daughter or my son have a very whiny voice on something and they come in whining, I'll say, "Uh-uh, I can't, I can't hear you. I can't hear you when you talk like that." Voomp, all of a sudden it changes.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They go right back to how they were. And it's just, it's just trying to guide them. "And if you want me to hear what you're saying, you're gonna have to, to talk in a certain way."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I mean, that, that sounds far more effective than just actively tell, you know, trying to shout louder than the other person. And I think-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that's when a, a conversation starts to become more of a fight. And ultimately, when it becomes a fight, no one's winning that argument.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No. Nobody's winning that. Then it just becomes, just, then it just becomes worse. It, but it's, it's, uh, to really let people know that so much of their communication in the conflict has to deal with us, like how, how we... I can control how my conversations generally go.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
If somebody's being ugly to me, rude, I'm in complete control whether they have my emotions or not, I'm gonna allow them to, to affect me. And, and a lot of that is your pace. It, I mean, just like we talked about, I, I slow everything down. My voice is gonna get lower. I'm gonna go slower. I'm more interested in why are they saying this, rather than thinking of the next thing to say. And that, that will, um, that's good for all things in life, but it certainly has helped me.
- SPSpeaker
I was gonna s- as you were talking about that then, um, I was, I w- I was thinking that, uh, you know, since we jumped on this call, you have, you know, your, your, your pace has been quite slow. You've, you know-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... you've been a deeper voice. And what I feel as though it's doing to me is it's almost drawing me closer to the screen.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I'm, I'm sort of leaning in and, and, you know, I, I'm leaning in further to what you've gotta say, and it's, you know, it's making me pay more attention to you. When you're talking to someone, are you, is, uh, are things like that something that you're always conscious of? Or does this, is this just sort of second nature to you now, or do you know when to play on certain things, when to use little tactics like that?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I'm just trying to, I know it's late over in your time-
Episode duration: 1:26:38
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