How to Talk to Anyone on Edge Without Getting Pulled In

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   AMA episode setup: topics, promise, and what’s ahead

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Hey, everybody. Welcome to a special episode, an Ask Me Anything podcast episode, where we're gonna go over some questions that were asked in response to my newsletter that I send out every week, questions about some romantic relationship stuff, how to be a better listener, and how to deal with liars. I'm ready to get right into it. You ready? Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. I'm gonna ask you to please, if you would, find the Subscribe or Like

2. 0:30 – 1:31

   Sponsor + newsletter: where the questions come from

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      or heart wherever you're listening, on whatever platform you're listening to, I'm gonna ask you to click it, because I'm giving you a promise, and that promise is to make you a better communicator. For however long you listen to my podcast, whether it's just a few episodes, if you make this part of your daily routine, you will be a better communicator, and that's my promise to you. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. One thing that I got in the other day that I received was a bath sheet from them. They do awesome bath towels, not only beds, uh, bedsheets, but also, also bath towels. This is, uh... I'm over s- I'm like six foot one. I am six foot one, not like. I am. [chuckles] And this bath sheet comes up almost to my shoulders. It's awesome. You should check them out. You can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson for, and use the code JEFFERSON for 40% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code JEFFERSON for 40% off. I have a newsletter, in case you didn't know, where I send out a weekly communication tip right into your inbox totally

3. 1:31 – 3:02

   Mac’s question: spouse stressed from work and reactive to simple questions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:31

      for free, and in response, every once in a while, in fact daily, I will get questions from people. I've pulled some of these that I wanted to talk with you about. They're awesome people that have awesome questions. I wanna get right to them. This first one is Mac from Michigan. Here's Mac's question: "My spouse carries a lot of stress from work. When he's very stressed out, me asking a question can trigger a reactionary response. All I can say is, 'I'm just asking a question,' and then I shut down. How can I respond better?" Mac, I, I understand because as soon as I saw your email, this, this hits home. [chuckles] This hits home for me. So I am a practicing attorney, and then I have this communication advice that I love to share, and that's a passion. And then my wife, uh, is also a practicing attorney. She does educational law, totally different world than me. But when we get home, yes, it is... You're like any other husband and wife. There are questions that she gives me as soon as I come in the door, or there's times when I'm asking her questions. So I'm about to wade in some, into some topics, y'all, that you may not agree with. You might go, "Uh, that's not for me." That's fine. This is... What I'm about to tell you is what works for me. This is not a replacement for couples therapy. It's not a replacement for any kind of therapy. Let's be clear about that. So Mac, this is what... Let me, let me give you first a perspective of what could be happening to your husband, and I'm just saying this from my

4. 3:02 – 6:03

   Why questions can feel like demands when someone walks in the door depleted

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:02

      point of view. Whenever I come in the door, I am... I have finished my day. I'm driving. I get home, finishing a whole lot of high-level tasks, tasks that, big decisions for my clients, big decisions for me, big things that I took a lot of processing, a lot of mental energy. Maybe I switch between doing a podcast, uh, dealing with some issue at the office at, in my law firm, and even switching between tasks, uh, just drains my battery really quickly. And when I get home and I walk in the door, and if the first thing is questions like, "Hey, did you remember to call the plumber? Hey, what do you want to do for dinner? W- w- um, what do you want the plan to be for next Saturday?" It, it feels like I am back into decision mode. Let me tell you why it, as a husband, this is, this is not Jefferson communicator guy. This is Jefferson husband. I feel like I am s- going to fail my, my family in that situation because I, I'm, I'm mentally not there. The questions, even though I know, Mac, you ask questions that are totally reasonable. They're normal questions, questions that deserve an answer, that are necessary, or they're just out of curiosity. Sometimes the questions feel like demands in that moment. I'm already overstimulated. As soon as I walk in, the kids immediately wanna wrestle. They wanna play. I have to be in dad mode, and I'm just, uh, I'm having to struggle to get out of that, that mode for a second. And the questions feel like demands. They feel like a, a pop quiz. And if the answer is, "I don't know. I, I, you know what? I, I forgot to call this guy," that feels like an exam. I just, I just failed it. I'm getting judgment now that I'm a failure, that I, I, I missed it. I should've called him. I meant to call. Didn't happen. Now, she's not putting that on me. I'm putting that on me. Maybe it's another question about what we wanna do next weekend. Now I have to f- it feels like a, an ambush of like, I don't, I don't know the right answer. And so if I, anytime if it's, "Did you?" or, "What do you want?" and I'm having to say, "I don't know," that feels like I am m- not meeting this invisible threshold. Again, that's not there. It's just all on, on, on me. Now, some of you might be listening and go, "Jefferson, just get over it. They're just easy questions. Can you just be a grown adult?" Yeah, I understand that. I get it. I'm just, I'm being honest with you, and there are times that getting a lot of questions right at home when I've done big level things, and as soon as I get home and my, my brain tells me these are lower level things. Uh, and, and not in terms of, they're not, I don't mean in terms of not a priority. That's not what I mean. I mean, some things are not needing to d- be decided in this moment. And

5. 6:03 – 7:05

   Overstimulation at home: kids, timing, and the nervous system’s need to downshift

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:03

      so I just wanna push 'em off 'cause I'm, I'm still overstimulated. I haven't come out of work mode. I'm trying to get into dad, husband mode, family mode, and that's tough. I don't mean this as just a, a husband. Any ... My wife is a working wife, full-time attorney. She experiences a lot of the same things. If I come ... If she comes home and I happen to be home first and I'm peppering her, it's the same exact thing where we just go, "Uh, can we just not? Can we, can we just please?" It's very overwhelming in that moment. I'm telling you this, Mac, as, as hopefully a little bit of insight. Maybe some of you who are married or have s- significant others might be nodding your head a little bit and going, "Yeah, I, I understand that. The last thing I wanna do when I get home is feel like I, I have to answer 100 questions when this is ... This should be the place where my nervous system gets to calm down. This is the place where I don't have to make a decision. Can I just please just let me get out of this mode first?" So I don't mean to say

6. 7:05 – 8:07

   A practical system: the three-question rule and prioritizing what matters now

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:05

      that you should never ask questions. That's not it, Mac. Timing is very important here. So I'm giving you a little bit of insight to what might be happening or being experienced from your spouse. Now, how do you fix this? Right? How, how do we, how do we flip that? How do you ask the questions? Again, this is what we do in my house. Does not mean it's what you should do in your house. This is what works. We have a three-question rule. That means after three questions, we're stopping. It, it can wait, so that means we prioritize the questions, makes us think about the rank of questions when, as soon as we walk in the door. So if it's not something that's very important, it's something that's gonna be pushed off, meaning we're not gonna ask more than three questions. And if ... I know in my world, if I get more than three questions, I, I'm ready to ... I, I f- I feel like all of a sudden I'm being avalanched. So that's, that's how it happens. I'll tell you, it helps also to have a routine. For me, if

7. 8:07 – 10:07

   Decompression routines and ‘not now, later’ scheduling language

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

      I go home, walk in the door, and I change clothes, I hug on my babies, and I get out of my work clothes ... D- it doesn't even have to be work clothes. Just get into a different outfit. It helps my mind get more into, "Okay, I'm home. This is me. I'm not having to ... My phone's down. I'm not looking at social media. I'm not thinking about some kind of post," any of that. It helps me get out of the, that mindset. There's another thing that helps, and it is we are very communicative about the time. So she's good at saying, "Hey, not now," is what she'll say. She'll say, "Not now, but later, can we start thinking about what we want the plan to be for this Saturday, or if you want your family to come over, or if you wanna go X, Y, and Z?" And that helps me and her to know that we're not having this conversation now. She's not trying to force this conversation on me now. I'm sure just like you, Mac, you're not trying to force that conversation now. You're just being curious. You wanna ask questions. Uh, it's letting us know that this is gonna be a topic, but we don't have to talk about it now. Also on my end, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I will say, "Is this something we have to talk about this moment, or is this something we could talk about later? Is this something that needs to be decided right now?" Nine times out of 10, the answer is no. So just having that, that communication is, is crucial for us and how we're doing ... Because we ... And we have two kids. They're the seven to five, so most of the time we can't even have adult conversation, real conversation till the kids are in bed, which means we're exhausted. The best conversations we have is usually if we can try and find some time mid-morning to have a phone call or, uh, lunch, uh, or maybe we have a, a babysitter and we can actually have full-length conversations without somebody waking up, somebody needs this with, with kids. So I know it's a stage, and we're enjoying it all, but that's just part

8. 10:07 – 11:39

   Don’t shut down: negotiate preferences and create a shared plan for hard moments

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:07

      of it. So for you, also, to ... For you not to shut down, what's gonna help you is having this conversation with your spouse, saying, "I'm noticing," or, "It seems that when you get home and I'm asking questions, you don't like that. What would you prefer that I do? What would be more helpful?" Because again, the questions you're asking, they're not th- they're not like they're dumb questions. They're questions that need to happen. They're questions of curiosity. They're questions of caring. They're questions of, "This needs to happen for this reason." They might be necessary. And if you have this communication, this conversation with them of what's gonna be helpful, when can I bring this up? Because there's certain things you can, you can't just continue to push off. You can't continue to push off. That would be my recommendation. That's at least what we do in my household. We have a three-question rule until later, and we're very quick to say, "Is this something we need to talk about now?" And already knowing if each one of us have had a very busy day, the issues that are going to take priority, because sometimes we can't even get into a conversation without somebody needing, you know, a, a cheese stick, uh, or asking for s- something to drink. So that's just kind of, that's part of it. But I give you some insight there. It's, it's, for me, any additional questions when I come in the door, and I know she and I have had this conversation, it, they feel like additional demands, like a, a pop quiz, and if I don't have the answer, I start to feel like a failure, and then it, I get more overstimulated,

9. 11:39 – 12:39

   Listener question: why listening content is unpopular—and why it matters

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:39

      and it just gets worse. So that would be, that would be my recommendation for you, Mac. That was a great question. Question number two, "Hey, Jefferson. I've heard you talk about how your content on improving listening skills is your least popular. I'm actually very interested in that topic. What are some ways to be a better listener?" David, you're exactly right. Any time I've made a video or put any kind of content out on how to be a better listener, you know how many people like it? ... hardly anybody. It's always my least viewed video because nobody wants to be a better listener. We want them to be a better listener. We want you to be a better listener, but we never want to be that person. Uh, isn't that funny how that happens? My most viewed content is always how to handle the toxic person, the mean person, what you can do to, to hold your ground with him. It's never how to be a better listener or be more empathetic or be more understanding. [laughs] It's just, that's the way the world works. Uh, David, how

10. 12:39 – 13:39

    Listening skill #1: active listening (useful, but can feel fake if overdone)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher12:39

       to be a better listener. Th- this is my, this is my overview for, for this. They, there's something what they call active listening, which I think is kind of a, a weird name for it. But they, they term active listening when somebody goes, "Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh. Oh, right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm," and they just f- they continually start to almost talk in non-verbal whenever they're listening to you. That I find, me personally, I find annoying. It, it, it can go too far. It can go, it can definitely go too far where you feel like this isn't really sincere. Now, I've been on plenty of podcasts and the other person's like, "Right. Oh, that's, that's so true." That I find to be completely genuine. That's completely genuine. It's when you can go too far with it. So there's that point of active listening, which is really just a way of engaging you, continuing to give you something to do while you're listening, while you're absorbing the information. So that, that's something I don't find unhelpful, but I

11. 13:39 – 14:09

    Listening skill #2: mirroring the last words to invite more detail

    1. JFJefferson Fisher13:39

       want you to know that is out there. Here's what I would recommend to be a better listener. One is mirroring. It's very easy. You take the last little bit of somebody's sentence, and then you ask it back to them. So let's say I'm, I'm telling you this phrase, uh, "Yesterday, you know, I really just didn't feel like somebody was listening to me. It was, it was just a really hard day." You would reply, "Hard day?" Or, "You had a hard day?" Or, "Sounds like you had a hard day." You go, "Yeah. No, I,

12. 14:09 – 15:42

    Listening skill #3: stop composing your reply while they talk + use a pause

    1. JFJefferson Fisher14:09

       I did. I had a really, a really hard day." And, and then we'll keep talking. You grab the last little two to three words of somebody's sentence and you just repeat it back to them. Now, you don't wanna continue to do that, uh, because then it'll be almost robotic, like, "What's wrong with you? You're not engaging in conversation with me." But it's very helpful in, in, in getting you to listen. Second thing I like to do with listening is getting very disciplined on the practice of refusing to allow myself to think of a response while they're talking. That's the hardest thing to do. But once you master it, it is actually very peaceful. Let me explain. If you're saying something to me, David, and the whole time I'm just thinking of my response, I cannot do two things at once. I will shut you out. I'll just shut you out. You know how that feels when you hear somebody talking and you kind of ... It's like listening to them in the water or having head muffs on, ear muffs on, where you can hear it and they're just like this and they're talking, but you're more concerned with what you're about to say, and you miss out on what, what they're, what they're saying. Except my wife says she can do both. She my, she says she can multitask, and that's, that's true. I don't have, [laughs] I don't have that, I don't have that ability. So it's a practice of totally emptying your mind and just going, "Nope, nope." You have to almost deny yourself thinking of a response until they are done talking. Once they are done, using your breath, taking

13. 15:42 – 18:15

    Listening skill #4: ‘test yourself’ focus + ask questions using their exact words

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:42

       a time to think and then give your response. Sounds easy. Whole lot harder in practice. I know it sounds easy. Using your breath, even if you say, "Now I'm, I'm, I'm listening," or, "I'm thinking. I'm thinking," and then you give your response, you will be a better listener for that. Number three, what I also like to do sometimes, depending on the situation, is I will almost, uh, challenge myself as if I am going to have to take an exam over everything that was just said in this conversation. Now, I, I don't do that in a negative way. I don't do that in some kind of punishing way. It just makes me tune in on making sure I'm really committed to knowing w- and remembering what is being said. Over the weekend when I was in Denver, I did a, a, a speaking deal in Denver. It was a wonderful time. We were randomly talking about, a group of us were talking about how to better remember people's names, and one of the tips that I gave was I will often, not only do you try and use their name often in conversation once I meet them, it is I pretend as if at the end of it I'm going to take a, a test, an exam over remembering everybody's name. And that just, it, all it does is make me very more aware of paying attention to people's names instead of trying to be passive about it. It's that same concept. Instead of just passively listening, I'm trying to be the student. I'm trying to hang on every single word. That means I'm asking questions. I'm not trying to push statements. I'm asking questions about, "How did that feel? Well, when you said this, what do you, what did you mean by this?" And I'm using the exact words that they use because it helps train you on being a better listener. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a new attorney, a very brand new, just got licensed attorney asking questions of a witness, and all they're doing is reading their next question. They're not even listening to the gold that that witness is giving them. The wit- uh, the, the attorneys you're scared of are the ones that have their, their questions and just put 'em off to the side, and they're just, they're in right here talking to your witness. That's when you know they're not even paying a close attention to their questions. They know their questions. They know where they wanna go. They're all in on listening. That makes you a, a lot more skilled attorney and just a, a, a more skilled communicator. So that would be my advice there, David from Florida. Thank you very much for that question. That was awesome. Question number three,

14. 18:15 – 19:16

    Pamela’s question: dealing with a liar—even when you have proof

    1. JFJefferson Fisher18:15

       this is Pamela from Washington. Pamela says, "Please address how to handle what to say when you're dealing with a liar. Lying right to your face even when you present proof to them. This infuriates me beyond belief. Thank you so much, Jefferson." Pamela, I'm sorry that you're dealing with that. Here's what I want to say at the outset. If you've presented proof to someone and you know that they're lying, and you're showing them that they're lying, and they're going, "No, that's not me. Sorry, I don't, I..." And they're still gonna lie to your face despite the proof, that is not somebody you want in your life, Pamela. That is not somebody you need to safeguard. That is not somebody that you wanna be around because what happens is you end up lying to yourself, lying to yourself that they can be fixed, lying to yourself that this is a good person, this is a moral person, this is someone with integrity, this is someone with character. You're lying to yourself that, that they can be different, and lying to yourself is one of the worst things of all. So I don't want you to do that, Pamela. That

15. 19:16 – 23:20

    Tactics with liars: use time, silence, and short phrases that signal doubt

    1. JFJefferson Fisher19:16

       would be my first thought for you there. For anybody who's listening, if you're like Pamela and you've shown proof to somebody and they're still acting like nothing's wrong and you know them to be a liar, then you're lying to yourself if you continue to keep this person into your life or at least as close as they are. You need to keep distance from these kind of people to preserve your peace. All right? Two, anytime I've dealt with liars, time is their enemy. They don't like you to slow down interactions. They want the quick buy-in. They wanna give a lie, they want you to buy into it really, really quick. That's why f- uh, liars often are very fast talkers. Fast talkers. Uh, anytime you slow down the interaction, they don't like that. So I've had it plenty of times when I'm deposing witnesses and I know that they're lying to me. How do I know? Because I have proof. I have evidence that they're lying. I haven't showed them yet, but I know that they're lying. And they'll start talking to me and they'll say something I know to be a lie, and then right after they're finished telling the lie, I go really quiet, like awkwardly long, quiet, and the liar will just... They'll start to wilt. They get nervous. They start talking to themselves. They start having conversations for me. They'll start having conversations like, "Well, why, why, why would you think I would do that?" Or they might, what we call down here crawfish, they might start to back up. They might, they start to b- back off the lie. They might say, "Well, I mean, you know, sometimes. I mean, sometimes. I, I don't do it all the time, but, but I mean, maybe. I mean, I could have. I mean, it, it was pretty dark." And they try to start to resurrect and fix their story. Or they're asking for input from me to try and fix their melting sandcastle. They might say something like, "Well, what do you, what do you think happened? I mean, why would you, why would you think I, I wouldn't?" You know, because they're wanting to hear me so they can take it, spin another lie, and try and fix the wall that's starting to break on their lie. So time is to your advantage. Third is use little phrases that is going to clue them in that you're not believing it. These are phrases that I like to use, and this is, "Something feels off." They might say, "What, what do you, you know, what do you think?" And I go, "I don't, I don't know. Something, something feels off. I, I can't put my finger, finger on it. I don't know. Something feels off." And it will just absolutely drive them nuts. Or I'll say, "I need to come back to this conversation." Give it a, a good pause and say, "Uh, I need to come back to this conversation." I've done it in a deposition before where I said, "I'm gonna come back to this question. I think I'm gonna come back to this question." And I've just seen them go wide-eyed like, " [chuckles] Please don't." They just know I, I'm not, I'm not buying it. So it is you standing your ground, and you see I'm using short little phrases and questions rather than going, "That's not true. That's not what happened. You're lying. You're not telling the truth." You see how when I'm doing that, all I'm doing is just giving more power, more control to them for them to do something with it. They're trying to pull that emotional energy, that emotional attention out of you to do something with it, and the more... It's, uh, the more an argument they can make with you, it's just more of when there's, where there's smoke, there's fire. So if they can make enough smoke and go, "Look, it obviously happened. We just argued about it. We just spent 30 minutes." And it's al- it's almost as if the more you talk about it and the more you deny it and the more they deny it, the more then, uh, the more that it actually existed, and that's not what you want. So slow it down. If of course you've presented proof, Pamela, and they're still gonna lie about it, then they are a liar, and that is not somebody you need to have around you, Pamela. All right? So I just want you to be careful and protect yourself. All right, we had Mac, we had David, we had Pamela. These are all awesome questions. If you like

16. 23:20 – 24:09

    Wrap-up: feedback request, engagement, and book mention

    1. JFJefferson Fisher23:20

       Ask Me Anything questions, and I answer these live Q&A type things, please put in the comments whether or not you like this, this stuff or not. I'm gonna try and start mixing this up. I have a lot of fun with it. That's why I wanted to talk about it because these are real people with real problems, and you know what? I am too. We all are real people with real problems. If you enjoyed today's episode, I am gonna ask you to as always like, subscribe it. If you have any questions, just put them in the comments. I read them. Or if you have any topic suggestions, let me know. Uh, my book, The Next Conversation, is still out, is gonna be out for a long time. Very excited about it. It is doing very well. It's a book that I have poured so much into, so you can always find the links down there in the show notes. The Next Conversation: How to Argue Less and Talk More. As always, you can try that and follow me.

Episode duration: 24:10