How To Talk To Someone You Completely Disagree With

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Core framework for disagreeing without fighting: needs, understanding, and boundaries

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      In today's episode, I'm going to teach you how to talk to someone you completely disagree with on every level. That's looking at you, family members at the dinner table. And here's the takeaway I'm gonna tell you right now. You don't have to agree with them, ever. All that and more coming up. Let's go. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you're listening to this podcast, my guess is it's because you want to be a better communicator

2. 0:30 – 2:01

   Sponsor + quick reset into the three-step method

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      and, in turn, improve your life. So that's exactly what my promise is to you. In exchange, what I'm gonna ask for is that anywhere you're listening, would you please press the button subscribe? It's a very low lift. It'll take one second, but it really makes a difference to me and my family and the mission that I am continuing to serve with passion. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. They've been a sponsor of this podcast for a long time now. Why? Because they put out really good stuff when it comes to anything that is cozy, is the best way to put it, and that ... I mean, the name is right on the nose. When I wear their sweaters, their hoodies, the sweatpants, even just a regular, like, dress pants that they look like dress pants but they're not, their towels, their bedsheets, all their products are premium. You will not regret it. If you are somebody that is at the age where you value a good set of towels, you need to go to Cozy Earth. Listen to me. Go to cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson and get 40% off. And now, back to the episode. If you want to talk to someone you completely disagree with, here's what I want you to do. We're gonna get right to it. Number one: don't argue the opinion, identify the need. Identify the need. Number two: shift from proving to understanding. And number three: water your own garden. Don't waste your water trying to water their bad seeds. All right? Water yours, and they'll get curious why yours is doing so

3. 2:01 – 3:33

   Step 1—Stop debating the ‘tip of the iceberg’ at the dinner table

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:01

      well. Water your own garden. We're gonna go into depth on those. Number one: don't argue the opinion, identify the need. Let's go deeper on that. What does that mean? So many times in conversation, you are ... Let's say you're at the dinner table, and you have family members, uh, in-laws, whatever it is, and somebody brings something up, and there's all of a sudden that tension in the room. They go, "Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. He- they just ... They went there. Uh, there ... They s- they talked about it. They talked about that candidate. They talked about that platform, that opinion, that, that whatever it is." Maybe you think it's a old mindset. It's an out-of-date mindset. It's a, um ... It's, it's not a nice ... Uh, it's not good to bring up. It's, it's not couth. Whatever it is, it's gonna bring you tension, right? And the ... What you wanna do is start arguing the opinion. You're arguing the very top, the i- tip of the iceberg. We get caught in trying to argue somebody's opinion. If they were to say, "Well, I believe that so-and-so is the best for this," or they ... "Obviously, this issue in our country is the worst it's ever been," and you wanna argue, "N- no, it's not. Actually, we need this," and you have this different opinion, you're just talking about the tip of the iceberg. But what breaks that down is that you're never going to get them to come your way, and you're never gonna get to theirs. You don't have to share their opinion to have a valuable conversation. What you have to do first

4. 3:33 – 5:06

   Identify the underlying need: safety, control, fear of change

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:33

      is identify the need. The tip of the iceberg, what's the, uh, bottom of it, is the need, and it usually has to do with safety or control or fear. Typically fear of change. And if you don't ... If you choose not to hear their words as, "God, I cannot believe they wanna vote for that person," instead you hear it as, "They're afraid of change. They have a fear of this. They have a fear of that." It was told to me once that nobody says anything for the purpose of being wrong. Nobody has an opinion, gives an opinion for the purpose of being wrong. Even the people who begin with, "You know, I could be wrong about this," they never think they're wrong about it, do they? No, they always think that they're right. And if you go from that mindset, instead of looking at the tip of the iceberg, instead of the tops of the trees, you're looking at the roots of what is the need. It's their need for safety for people around them, for their own safety. Usually, it is all based in fear in that, or what their value is and how for kids or for their life or how people should do and, and, and live and things that really sh- sh- have no effect on them whatsoever, but yet they've decided they're gonna have a big opinion on it right now. What you're hearing is fear of change. "Things should be better. They were always better back in the day. If it was just how it was back when I was a kid..." It's always the fear of change. This is never a topic that's going to expire. So

5. 5:06 – 7:07

   Phrases that acknowledge needs without agreeing with the opinion

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:06

      how do you talk to somebody you're never gonna agree with at an- any level? Don't argue the opinion. That's gonna go nowhere. Instead, identify the need. "What does that sound like, Jefferson? What does that sound like?" It sounds like you saying, "Hey, I, I agree this is worth talking about. I ... You know what? I, I can hear that you really care about the safety of this. I can hear you, you, uh, you don't want things to, to change." Or maybe it's as simple as, "I hear that safety's a big thing for you. I hear that this political ideal is important to you. I hear how, uh, the future of this country is important to you." How you begin to simply acknowledge the need rather than arguing the opinion. Another one: "It sounds like you really care about this." "It sounds like you really care about this." And you know what they're gonna say? "Yeah. Yeah, I really do." And all of a sudden you're gonna start to break down that it's, it's a deeply rooted need that they have, typically for control. That's, that's what you're hearing. Don't argue the opinion. Don't even address that. Instead, identify the need. Ways that I even like to, I explain that is I might say, "I agree, but I go macro, not micro." So I might say, "I agree this is worth talking about. I, I agree that's one way to look at it. I agree that's an opinion." Or I might say, "That's helpful to know. That's... Well, you know what? That's helpful to know." Or I might thank them. "Hey, well, thank you for sharing that." You see how I'm not having to agree with anything that they said? I'm just acknowledging the need that they have, that is deeply rooted need. If you only respond to the opinion, they will argue you forever. If you only disagree or argue the opinion, they will push it forever. I can promise you, that is a conversation at the

6. 7:07 – 8:07

   Why ‘proving them wrong’ fails and locks the argument in place

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:07

      dinner table that will last months, if not years, if you continue to push on that. But if you identify and s- discuss and talk about the need, the issue underneath, you can actually make progress. You can actually make progress. That's where you want to go. Number two: be more interested in understanding, rather than proving. Proving is this mindset of, "No, you have to agree with me. No, I have to make you understand my way. You know what? I, I can't even... I, I, I can't even wrap my m- mind around how you could possibly think this. Are you kidding me? You actually think... " Is that ever gonna make anybody agree with you? Whenever you come on the offensive to prove something, where you go, "Are, are you kidding me? Do you really believe this?" It... The more you tell somebody they're wrong, the more convinced they are that they're right, or they all of a sudden clam up and go, "Well, I'm not gonna share my opinion with you. This is what I believe. So? I don't care." Evidence doesn't work. Facts don't work. Why? Because you're only hitting the opinion. You're not identifying

7. 8:07 – 9:08

   Step 2—Use open-ended questions to create understanding (avoid ‘why’)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

      the need, like we talked about in number one. So what do you do instead of trying to push, push, push and prove, prove, prove? 'Cause you know what that feels like. What does that do? That makes you harden even more. Instead, ask questions that help open up understanding. These are not questions that begin with why. That will kill it instantly. "Well, why do you think that? Why do you believe that?" Uh, yeah, okay. W- w- what about anything that challenges the why to make them explain in a defensive posture? But if I begin with what, how, when, where, those are what they call open-ended questions. Open-ended questions. So if I were to say, "How long have you felt this, this way?" "Oh, well, you know what? I've... I felt this the first time in..." "Oh, what, what happened there? Where, where did you hear this?" It... You hear how I'm not going, "Yeah, right. Well, okay. You explain to me how X, Y, and Z" That's

8. 9:08 – 10:39

   How curiosity reveals the real drivers behind political and emotional opinions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:08

      gonna clam up, right? But if I were to say, "Where did you, where'd you learn this? How long have you felt that way?" And I'm actually interested in understanding, they will explain to you more. And what's gonna happen in that thread? You're gonna go, "Ha. Okay, there's the, the need of something that happened to them probably that they just believe..." And sometimes, e- especially I would say in the political area, you, you see all this stuff where they, like, they interview people on the street, right? And they try and catch them on something, and they might mention something of a different political candidate, and all of a sudden th- the person who's being interviewed is talking like they know, and it's actually inaccurate information. It's because people have opinions that are based on feelings, based on the inner needs, not [laughs] typically based on facts. So that's why evidence doesn't work. Proving to them, saying, "Look at this piece of paper. How could you possibly... Look at this report that came out," that doesn't work, because it doesn't address the inner need within. So when you ask the open-ended questions to get them to open up to you [laughs] and help you understand, it helps identify the need, and it makes them feel acknowledged, it deescalates the situation, and it helps have a productive conversation that actually moves, rather than just creating a big mess where somebody has to get up from the table and walk away because, "You know what? I'm over this. You're never gonna change."

9. 10:39 – 12:11

   Sponsor break, then return to Step 3

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:39

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10. 12:11 – 13:42

    Step 3—‘Water your own garden’: protect your peace and your people

    1. JFJefferson Fisher12:11

       illustration in my mind because so much peace can be had... If, if you're somebody who gardens, you know what kind of peace that brings up. We've had gardens, um, and it is... You tend to it. You pay attention to it. You protect it and you water it. And so much of conversation is understanding I can only tell it to you. I can't understand it for you. So what I'm going to do is I'm gonna water my own garden, meaning I'm gonna make sure my people are protected. By protecting my peace, I also protect my people, the people who care about me, the people that need me in the right state of mind, who, who need me to be present. If I am so worked up about an opinion of yours that, that will have no impact on my life whatsoever at this meal or at this gathering, right, I'm, I'm... I've lost sight of the fact that I have a beautiful garden. If I start arguing against your opinion, what I do is I get my water hose and I'm... all of a sudden, I'm trying to water yours. When they've planted bad seed, y- what's that gonna grow? It's gonna grow thorns. It's gonna grow animosity. It's gonna grow contempt. And all of a sudden, what could have been a five-minute conversation of acknowledging the differences, there is now five years of estrangement. That's what happens. That's how quick it happens. When you understand that they can have their own opinion and have their garden, l- let them have it and you have yours. So

11. 13:42 – 14:12

    Practical exits and redirects: choose the topic, choose the endpoint

    1. JFJefferson Fisher13:42

       you can hear conversations from them and say, "You know what? I'm not trying to change your mind," or, "You know what? I'm... I know I'm not gonna change your mind. I just wanna hear what you have to say," or, "I appreciate what you're sharing. I know we're not gonna see the eye to eye on this, but, uh, you know what we do make eye to eye on?" Whatever topic that you know that you agree on. Choosing when to go into that conversation, knowing when to get out of it. Usually, we just get very stubborn. We get really

12. 14:12 – 15:12

    Disarming move: “I’d rather hear about you” + family example

    1. JFJefferson Fisher14:12

       stubborn, and we try to go to number two, and we just prove, prove, prove, prove, and that does nothing. So remember when it comes to watering your own garden, that there will be an end to the conversation, and there certainly can be a place for meaningful dialogue. What I playfully like to say is, if somebody's trying to have some kinda conversation with me, whether it's... If it's something I know I disagree with, I might easily say, "You know what? I'd rather hear about you." They ask me a question that's kinda s- sent to tee me up. It's me saying, "Well, I'd rather hear about you." Nobody gets mad if I suggest talking about themselves. I've never had that once. They go, "Oh." They kinda laugh as if like, "All right. I, I understand we're not gonna go there." And sometimes, you know, even like, um, my grandparent, my grandfather, you know, he will try and spark these arguments just for fun. They can get me really worked up and it d- doesn't bother him at all. Maybe you can relate to that. And

13. 15:12 – 16:06

    Recap of the three steps and closing reminder for holiday gatherings

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:12

       it's me having to choose to just water my own garden. I love him. I'll always love him. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that he says. Okay, what do we got? Number one, don't argue the opinion. Identify the need. Go deeper. Number two, instead of talking to prove, talk and respond to understand. Again, we're going layer to layer to layer. And number three, water your own garden. Protect your own peace. D- don't be walking over and start trying to pick their weeds. All right? Water your own garden. That's the key to a lot of peace in your life. All right. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. I know that's coming up on us. And if somebody's talking about something you completely disagree with on every level, remember this episode. So you can try that and follow me.

Episode duration: 16:06