If You Don't Do This, Every Difficult Conversation Will Be A STRUGGLE | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 0:59

   The third pillar: “Say it to connect” (not to win)

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      What's number three then? So you've given me two.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:03

      Yeah. We say, say it with, uh, say it with control, say it with confidence, and three is say it to connect. These are how do you have, how do you have these difficult conversations with somebody? How do you find ways to say what you need to say in one of the most difficult times? That gives a lot of people anxiety if they know they have to have a difficult conversation, even in weeks ahead, especially the day ahead, they're just dreading it.

   3. SPSpeaker0:26

      Mm-hmm. So how do I say something to connect?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:29

      Yeah. What you wanna do is get really curious about the other person, but not just so much that there is a framework that I'm, I can even give you. So we can go a step further. There is a frame, and I call them conversational frames. When to connect with somebody, it is a fancy word. I think connection can be overused at times. Just means I say something that you can understand, and you acknowledge me. That's all we're looking for. Doesn't mean that everything's happy, doesn't mean that

2. 0:59 – 1:41

   Connection as relief: remove the fight-or-flight posture

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:59

      it's a Hallmark card. Like, I can connect with you and still be upset at you. My dad would... used to tell me if I came, if I disagreed with something, he'd say, he would go, "You don't have to like it. You just need to understand it."

   2. SPSpeaker1:11

      [chuckles]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:11

      I mean, that, that right there was a great example of allowing me to connect with him and giving me the, the space to disagree. If you were to begin your sentence with, "I'm not asking to change your mind," or, "I don't need to change your mind," uh, it's almost like a relief before you say the rest of what you need to say. Now you're not in that combative fight or flight of do I have to defend myself at any time. So connection is this way of setting up conversations that is going to get you more of what you want. We talked about the frame. Here's how to do it,

3. 1:41 – 2:42

   The “conversational frame”: topic, desired ending, buy-in

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:41

      and this is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation. Number one, you're gonna begin with telling them what you want to talk about. Number two, you tell them, and this is the most important, how you want to end the conversation, what you wanna walk away from. And three, you get their buy-in into that conversational frame. This is what it sounds like. Let's say this is, "I need to come to you and talk about something serious." So first, I'm gonna say what we need to talk about. "Stephen, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting." Two, I'm gonna tell him how I wanna walk away. It sounds like, "And I wanna walk away from that conversation with the understanding that's not gonna happen again." Three, I'm gonna get their buy-in. I'm gonna say, "That sound good?" You're gonna say, "Yeah." Now you know exactly where we're going. You know exactly what we're gonna talk about. You know when that conversation's going to end and how it's going to end, and now I have your buy-in, and it's like almost an invisible contract when somebody goes, "Yeah. That's good. We can talk about that." They don't wanna leave it. They don't wanna break their word, so they, they know that they're gonna be stuck in it.

4. 2:42 – 3:39

   Why hard talks derail: expecting a scripted exchange

   1. SPSpeaker2:42

      Mm-hmm. And then is there anything I need to be aware of when I have that difficult conversation with them so that I don't... so that I'm successful in getting to that outcome?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:53

      N-number one would be set the goal of knowing where it's going to end. That, that is the hardest, probably the biggest downfall of the difficult conversation. People expect them to go how they had it in their head. They want the conversation to happen just like they had it while they were brushing their teeth that morning or driving on the way into work. They're like, "Okay, I'm gonna say this, and then they're gonna say this," and you expect everything to go just how you had it in your head. But as soon as they say that one thing you weren't expecting, all of a sudden they disagree with you, and you go, "Wait, that's not how it's supposed to be. They were s- they were supposed to say this. They were supposed to say I'm right. They were supposed to say they're wrong. I mean, it, uh, how's this gonna go?" And then it begins to [mimics engine] falter like that.

   3. SPSpeaker3:29

      'Cause when we go into those sort of difficult conversations, whether it's with a colleague or our spouse or whoever it might be, much of the objective, I think, for some of us is to, is to win the conversation-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:38

      Yeah

5. 3:39 – 5:11

   Don’t aim to win arguments—aim to keep the relationship

   1. SPSpeaker3:39

      ... in whatever definition of winning one might have. Is endeavoring to win a conversation a good idea?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:45

      I teach that you never want to win an argument, and this is why. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. Like, if you set out to only prove people wrong, yeah, you might win the point, but you will lose the person. You know, being right doesn't keep you company. Let's put it that way. When I look at it as arguments as only something to win, all I've won is really the first step to, to apologize typically when you set out to win it because most arguments aren't really won. It's just they're won by forfeit. Somebody goes, "I, I'm over this," or you said it, something that was really hurtful that makes them say, "I, I don't wanna... Uh, we're done. I don't wanna talk about this." An argument eventually burns out. That's what happens. But when you set out to win, you will lose the relationship. Like, if you, you and I are in an argument, and I say something that's really hurtful, and then you leave, you hang up the phone, what have I won?

   3. SPSpeaker4:45

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:45

      Yeah. I mean, what... I, I've, I've won awkward silence now when we pass each other in the hall. I've, I've won that awkward feeling now I have to pick up the phone and apologize. I still have to find a way to probably work with you or live with you. W-what have you proven? When has ever you go onto social media and disparaged somebody's political belief ever changed their mind, ever?

6. 5:11 – 6:51

   The “last word” prize: congratulations, you get to apologize

   1. SPSpeaker5:11

      There's been so many arguments that I've had with, like, my girlfriend where I have, quote unquote, "won," and I felt like shit.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:16

      Yeah. You will.

   3. SPSpeaker5:17

      'Cause I... 'Cause she, like, she might come to me and say, "Do you know what? I understand your point, and I'm, I'm sorry," and there's part of me that just feels like shit, and I, I... it's, it's because I thought that's the outcome I was looking for. But actually, the outcome I was look-looking for was resolution. And I actually lo-love this person so much that a concession was not, like, was actually not... I- it's not what I wanted. I actually wanted to be happy with them.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:46

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker5:47

      So I had to... You know. I was thinking of so many... some, some recent examples where my girlfriend came to me and apologized for something where we were, like, disagreeing about it, and I just felt like shit that she apologized. [chuckles] I just wanted to explain.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:57

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, that's not an uncommon experience. Whenever you feel like you had to always be right- And that, that's what we really want. We want the last word. When you have the last word, you are typically first up to apologize. That's all you've, that's all you've bought yourself. That's the, that's your prize. Congrats.

   7. SPSpeaker6:15

      Mm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher6:15

      And when that happens, you find a way of going, "That's not really what I, I wanted. Why did I say that? That was just, that was just hubris. That was just me. I just had a feeling of being right." And sometimes we have that feeling of when... Especially in terms of people that are in charge of other people, um, we expect others to do what we say. When you're in work mode and you say, "I need this done," people get it done. You set the tone. You... This is how we wanna do it, and sometimes we translate that into our own romantic relationships.

   9. SPSpeaker6:46

      Mm.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher6:46

       "Oh, no, I said it needs to be this way, so you know what you need to do? You need to do it this way."

   11. SPSpeaker6:50

       Mm-hmm.

7. 6:51 – 8:12

   Arguments as knots to unravel: language that de-escalates

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:51

      And it's a different shift when you're doing something that's romantic versus something that is, you have to be captain of the, the ship. And so whenever you're in those difficult conversations and you only see them as something to win, you're gonna have a hard pro- problem. What I teach is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, meaning what we wanna do is pull my way, and then you pull it your way, and it just makes it worse. It makes it worse. We have to give up, and it's not until that next conversation that we actually ch- try and care of what happened. I will often tell someone, "Help me find the knot. Help me find the knot." And what I'm doing is encouraging them to say... I'm not saying, "What's wrong with you?" I'm not saying, "Can, can you be any more stupid?" I'm saying, "Help me find the knot." It's a way of detaching the issue, detaching the problem, saying, "This is something for us both to look at. Help unravel where's the... What am I missing?" That phrase right there is very, very effective. If you can just ask them the question, "What am I missing?" They will always tell you, 'cause most likely it's not something that you're focused on. You're only focused on what you're saying. You're not focused on what they're hearing. Big, big difference.

   2. SPSpeaker7:59

      I have, um, two glasses on the floor here.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher8:02

      Yeah.

   4. SPSpeaker8:03

      Um, try not to spill it.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher8:08

      Nice.

   6. SPSpeaker8:08

      Long time since I've been a waiter.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher8:10

      [laughs]

8. 8:12 – 10:24

   The two-glasses analogy: you can’t pour into a full cup

   1. SPSpeaker8:12

      Um, so I have these two glasses of water in front of me. H- What is... I know there's an analogy you, you have for having a good, effective conversation that can be demonstrated with these two glasses of water.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:23

      Yeah. So let's say that this glass right here is all of my thoughts and knowledge, and your glass is all of your thoughts and knowledge, and not just what you think now. These are things that you've known throughout your entire life. So if I were to tell you something about... I wanna get your thoughts on maybe a political opinion or something that's a religious belief. I'm talking, like, deeply held beliefs that you grew up with. That's what's in that cup right there. When we go into a conversation with someone, often what we find is, especially if it's, like, a stranger, that what I say in our first conversation should convince you automatically that if I were to take all of my knowledge right here and I pour it in, there should be no problem. But what, but what happens? When I start to pour into here, it overflows, meaning you have no room. You have no room for what I want to share whatsoever. It's gonna just... It's overflow. Instead, what you have to find are ways to ask questions and get really curious, meaning instead of me pushing my point, instead of saying, "Why do you believe that?" beginning your question with why, I start to get really curious about, "How did you come to believe that? Where did you learn that? When did this happen?" Ways that I get to ask questions every day, like I do as a trial attorney, to find ways of getting to the issue of: What's that deeply held belief? Where does it come from? Because only then... Let's go ahead and pour yours into mine. [glass clinks] [water pours] There you go. Perfect. And so it's only then, until you have space that I'm asking questions, whenever I ask questions and you start to answer just a little bit more, and then you answer just a little bit more to where you actually have space to care at all to what I'm gonna tell you. Like, you can't fill... I can't fill a glass that's already full with new thoughts. It's not gonna happen. It's not until I can

9. 10:24 – 11:16

   You’re talking to a history, not just a person in front of you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:24

      get you to pour it all out till you'll ever be receptive and have room for what I want to share with you. So that's the key in difficult conversations, that you have to find ways to get really curious about who's the person behind the words because the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. I might be talking to Stephen right now, but there are things that happened in your life that you believe that happened long before I ever talked to you, and we have this hubris about us that we think that just because I told you you should believe something right at this moment, you're gonna automatically change your mind. Minds don't get changed in one conversation. Th- they happen over a year of 100 conversations, 1,000 conversations before anybody will ever be receptive to what you have to say.

   2. SPSpeaker11:10

      So what's, like, a real-world example of this idea that you might not be talking to Stephen, you might be talking to something he's dealing with?

10. 11:16 – 15:03

    Case study: the angry witness who was actually a worried son

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:16

       Yeah. So let's put it in terms of I've had a, a, a client before. Uh, this is not a... Let me rephrase that. I had a deposition before where I was talking to a witness, and he was a huge mountain of a man. His name is Bobby Lapray. I'm talking, Stephen, he was huge. His hands... I mean, he just looked... I looked like I was physically deficient in every way next to this guy, and it didn't matter what I asked him, Stephen. He got mad at me. I mean, I was asking him basic things like, "Where were you, where were you born? Okay, and where'd you, where'd you go next, and what happened next?" And every time he would just get angrier and angrier. And eventually, I had to ask him, I said, "Do you need a break?" And he said, "No, but I got something to say." And I thought, I thought he was about to just flip the, the table on me. He, he was just so furious. And I asked him... Well, once he even told me He said, "You c- you can cut all this buddy-buddy stuff," except he didn't say stuff. And he said, "You, you lawyers, you attorneys, you're the worst thing to happen in this government. You're the worst thing to happen. So you can go on and ask your stupid questions, but I don't trust you as far as I can throw you." Well, instead of taking that bait, which is most people wanted to do, I asked him a question. I said, "What am I missing? What's, what are you struggling with right now in your, in your life? What's been your biggest struggle?" And they have to ask my, they have to a- answer questions in a deposition. And what I learned was that he, big ol' Bobby Lapray, this huge guy, had just put his mother in a nursing home, and he was the only one to take care of her. His dad had died, his brother was off, and he had been getting letters for months about his mom and her home from lawyers about foreclosing, making demands, debt collection, all these things that he just didn't understand. And so right then in that moment, I represented everything he knew about the law and lawyers and everything else. And so the person I saw was an aggressive, mad witness. The person I was talking to was a worried son. And, and we got to talk that out, and I helped him, and it was a, it ended, it ended wonderful. We ended actually hugging. But every day you have these micro moments of the person you see is not the person you're talking to. The, the waitress that looks like she's being rude and dismissive is actually worried because she should've gotten off two hours ago and her mom is still keeping her kids. Or you have somebody who even in the workplace who seem like they're a little bit short on their, their phone call with you, uh, somebody who looks like they're aggravated, actually their day began because, y- you know, he and his wife are going through a divorce and they stayed up all night arguing. Everybody has a struggle that you can't see. They're having a conversation in their head that you are not invited to. And so when you have the patience to try and understand the person behind the words, it's going to go a, a whole lot better for you, and they'll feel that. When you just wanna accept them for what they look like, it's, it's always different. Like when I, if I were to tell you you were wrong about something, uh, for me to change your mind, like right now, I most likely am not saying that Stephen's wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying a grandparent's wrong. Something you grew up your whole life was wrong. A camp you went to growing up was all wrong. There's pieces and identities that have all combined into what you believe now, and we have this horrible habit of thinking for some reason that if I say it to you right in this moment, it's all going to change, and you're gonna, uh, just immediately conform to what I want you to be.

11. 15:03 – 18:13

    Triggers and “red mist”: when disagreement reopens old wounds

    1. SPSpeaker15:03

       Being triggered is a hallmark of that, isn't it?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher15:05

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker15:05

       Like being... When we say, oh, dear God, they're like easily triggered, it's really you're scratching at a open wound that might have been there many years ago. I r- I was reflecting as you were speaking about a particular friend that I have who I remember a conversation with him in the middle of the pandemic where he, he like turned to me and said, um, [lip smacks] "It's people that are young and healthy that are ending up in the hospital beds." And I remember saying to him, I was like, I was living at his house. I was like, "No, I don't think that. I think the web-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher15:32

       Yeah

    5. SPSpeaker15:32

       ... the NHS website says it's people that are like out of shape and slightly older that are ending up in hospital beds." And he like was like really, really triggered by that.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher15:39

       Mm.

    7. SPSpeaker15:40

       And I remember he's like a good friend of mine, so we had a conversation about it, and we dug and dug and dug, 'cause we are like really good friends. Like, why, why is it that all of us as like boys, we know in like the group chat when we're bantering, all we've gotta do is say like, "No, you're wrong"-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher15:54

       Wait, one more

    9. SPSpeaker15:54

       ... one thing, and it's like red mist.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher15:56

        Yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker15:56

        And we had like a really open conversation about it over, uh, really over the last like year and a half, and he said, um, [lip smacks] "When I was younger, all of the teachers thought I was stupid, and also I then got bullied on the playground because people thought I was stupid. And then I found text messages from my grandmother to my mum where they said I was stupid, and then I found on my report card they'd basically written me off." So 30 years later, when we're having a conversation-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher16:25

        Wow

    13. SPSpeaker16:25

        ... just a trivial conversation about the pandemic-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher16:27

        Yeah

    15. SPSpeaker16:27

        ... when I go, "No, I don't think that's right," and I like pull up the website and stuff, and he gets, like sees the red mist, as me and him call it now. It all stems back-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher16:35

        Yeah

    17. SPSpeaker16:35

        ... 30 years to this experience of on the playground. So-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher16:38

        Hmm

    19. SPSpeaker16:39

        ... like you said, it could be proving, proving someone wrong, but in that case, it's actually like proving the bullies right.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher16:44

        Yes.

    21. SPSpeaker16:44

        It's proving all the people that hurt him right.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher16:46

        Yeah.

    23. SPSpeaker16:46

        And it's showing up 30 years later as this red mist. The story ends with him going to a therapist and speaking about it.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher16:51

        Yeah.

    25. SPSpeaker16:51

        And he's resolved it now to the extent to which he can, where now when he feels that feeling, he's able to point at it. He knows what it is, and so it doesn't make the decision.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher17:00

        Right. Knowing your trigger is one of the biggest ways to defend against that, to know your trigger. And it's funny how, just like your friend is telling you, so many things in everybody's life goes back to the playground.

    27. SPSpeaker17:12

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher17:13

        Like, we can remember that thing that that one kid said, like right now.

    29. SPSpeaker17:17

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher17:17

        We can probably remember it.
12. 18:13 – 21:40

    How to handle someone who escalates: pause, create distance, use a second conversation

    1. SPSpeaker18:13

       If you're dealing with someone in your romantic relationship, at work, whatever, that is easily triggered in that regard, what advice would you give to the person dealing with that person who is, like, continually easily triggered, they see the red mist all the time, it's almost impossible to talk to them because they immediately just flip to 10?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher18:32

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker18:33

       They avoid the difficult conversation. You feel now that you can't even have that conversation with them because they're immediately gonna gaslight you or they're just gonna go straight to 10 and they're gonna be flooded.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher18:43

       Right.

    5. SPSpeaker18:44

       You know that phrase that I've heard before about, like, when the brain gets flooded, like they just get-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher18:47

       Yeah

    7. SPSpeaker18:47

       ... overwhelmed and they're-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

       Yes.

    9. SPSpeaker18:48

       What do you do with that kind of person? You just-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher18:51

        Well-

    11. SPSpeaker18:51

        ... curious or?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher18:51

        [lips smack] Well, it's... I don't wanna just say curious because I don't... I, I think that doesn't do it justice. One would be you have to delay what you, what they said from when you respond. You have to add a lot of distance there, because if you continue to engage and go, "Why, why can't you talk about this? What's wrong with you?" That will only spiral it more. You... What they're gonna hear is something is wrong with me, something I am feeling is bad, when in that moment their body is fighting. Their body is going, "I feel threatened. I feel anxious. I gotta get out of here." And it's happening in micro minutes that you... There's nothing you're gonna be able to say that's going to help that trigger aside from you allowing them the space to have it. So that means you're going to find ways to approach conversations with that in mind. So one would be adding distance and not addressing it in that current conversation because they're triggered. You don't wanna do that. You wanna f- find it in the second conversation. So in the first one you can easily end it with, "Hey, we can drop it. Not a problem. We can talk about it later." Because y- problems happen, Stephen, when you try and push people into having conversations on your timeline. In other words, when they're not ready. You ever had somebody come up to you and go, "Hey, I need to talk to you right now."

    13. SPSpeaker20:13

        Yes.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher20:13

        And, and you're like, "Ugh, oh, you wanna talk..." Like, that's the last thing. You're, you're trying to control my time, this is not what I wanna talk about right now, and I'm not ready for this conversation. And that, that causes a big problem when somebody's trying to push their timeline on you. Y- um, we can talk about ways to, to deal with that, but it is... That's what happens, and when you do it with somebody, going, "What's wrong with you? Let's talk... Why, why can't you talk about this right now?" You're just pushing them into a corner and you're making them harder. I mean, you just... They become hardened to you. They'll totally shut off from you. Then they're gone, then they won't come back for several days most likely. So when you start to push on them, things are go- wrong. So that's, when somebody's feeling triggered, that second conversation, that next conversation, is the, "I'd like..." Well, let's put a frame on it. "I'd like to talk about what we began talking on on last Monday, and I, I'm not trying to solve anything. I, I just wanna understand where you're coming from so that I can do better. Can we do that?" Like, right there, that's gonna be a much better way to set up and frame that difficult conversation, rather than going, "Hey, so, um, I... Question for you. Uh, what's up with you? Because something's, something's off." All right? Like, that's the way that it's gonna, you're gonna trigger them again. If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 21:40