EVERY SPOKEN WORD
20 min read · 3,576 words- 0:00 – 0:31
Why “just don’t talk to them” isn’t realistic—and what this episode will solve
- JFJefferson Fisher
How do you talk to a narcissist? I know what you wanna say. "You don't. You don't, Jefferson." That's not reality. It sounds nice, it sounds really nice, but it's not reality. Why? Because more than likely, you're related to one, you're married to one, you work with one, or you work for one. There are people who exhibit narcissistic behaviors
- 0:31 – 2:01
Podcast mission and sponsor message (Cozy Earth)
- JFJefferson Fisher
everywhere, and there are those that we might deem a narcissist. How do you handle it? All that more coming up. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you're listening to this right now, and if you're interested in improving your conversations, I'm gonna ask you to please click subscribe or follow or like or leave a comment. Why? Because it tells whatever you're listening to, whatever platform, that this is good stuff. And if you like learning good stuff, if you are interested in being a better communicator, listening to this podcast, I promise you, will make you a better communicator, and that's my promise to you. Thank you very much. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth has these bamboo sheets, and let me tell you, they are on my bed at this moment, and they're incredible. It is so hot and humid here in Southeast Texas, but these bamboo sheets always keep me cool. And if you have bamboo sheets on your bed, you know what I'm talking about. You can't, you can't go back. And what's even cooler is that Cozy Earth has a 100 night trial where you can try them for 100 nights. If you don't like them, send them back. You're not gonna want to, because I did not. [chuckles] And on top of that, they have a 10-year warranty for all bedding products, which is just incredible. You can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40%
- 2:01 – 3:02
His perspective as a trial attorney: dealing with adversarial personalities under pressure
- JFJefferson Fisher
off. Doesn't matter how hot it is outside, these are gonna keep you cool and keep you cozy. Now, I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist. You know this. I'm a trial attorney. That means I talk to a lot of people, usually in some of the most intense situations you can think of. Cross-examination is one of those. I can't think of anything that is more adversarial, in a controlled way, where people do not want to answer me. They don't wanna respond, but they're required to under oath, because they've done something where somebody is now calling them to the mat. They are now being held, they are now being held accountable for whatever they've done or they've said. So they don't typically wanna talk to me. It's my job to ask questions in a way that is going to get facts, apply law to it, and advocate for my client. One of those personalities that I see often are narcissists, and I say that as a general term of people who exhibit a strong, a pattern of
- 3:02 – 3:32
What narcissistic behavior looks like in everyday life
- JFJefferson Fisher
narcissistic behavior. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. These are people that if I were to say narcissist to you right now, you could close your eyes and think of one person. You go, "I... This is a narcissist." Somebody who always puts it to make it about themselves, always plays the victim, never takes accountability, has, uh, this inability to have empathy or sympathy or accountability
- 3:32 – 4:33
The core framework: the “Praise or Provoke” trap
- JFJefferson Fisher
for really anything. We're gonna talk about that right now. You ready? Number one, this, there's a mindset that I want you to have when you're dealing with people who exhibit these narcissistic behaviors, and it is a, a game. That's the mindset, that you are playing a game, and it's a game that I call Praise or Provoke, meaning if I'm not showering these people with praise, oh, how great they are, how wonderful they are, how credible they are. If I'm not reading everything else on their resume and just blasting and gassing these people up, well, they will turn to provoke an argument with me to try and create conflict where there is none. Why? To get that same level of satisfaction. They want to create a problem. They want to get me emotionally stimulated to where I am getting aggravated and upset. You know this. You can relate to this. If you're not showering that person you're thinking of with praise, they will turn to provoke
- 4:33 – 6:05
Why you can’t win: the rigged carnival-game analogy
- JFJefferson Fisher
and start a problem with you, because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise, because it's all about control. It's all about control. Let me tell you about this game. This is a game you cannot win. It's not... It's... To be clear, it is not because of you. It's not that you're not a winner. You haven't failed. You're not a loser. It is a game that is set up to fail. Have you ever played one of those carnival games? You, you gone to like a local carnival, a real bad one, like you know good and well they don't take care of anything. They're just a few rusted bolts away from it all destroying itself. You ever gone to one of those carnival games and you're like, "I, I can do this. I can, I can toss the ring on the bottle. I can, I can pop the balloon. I can shoot that basketball, not a problem." And you try it, and it doesn't work, and you're like, "Let me, let me, let me try again." And before you know it, you're $20 in on a game, and it's like this is not, this is not beatable, because it's not. It's rigged. The game is rigged. It was never fair. It will never be fair. That's exactly the situation you're in. It's not fair. No, it's not. And guess what? It will never be fair. You can only choose not to play it. You can only choose not to play it. So number one is this mindset. When you are talking to these personalities that exhibit strong ...
- 6:05 – 8:07
Reality check: boundaries matter, but you may still have to engage
- JFJefferson Fisher
narcissistic behaviors or a pattern of it, understand you are playing their game. And you can say, "Well, I'm just not gonna play." That's true. You can not play. And that would be my advice. Ideally, it's yeah, you never deal with these people. Ideally, yeah, you don't talk to them. But the- again, like I started at the outset of this episode, it's not reality oftentimes. Now, you could say, "I'm out of here. I'm not talking to you," and you're gone. It's just not practical. It sounds good when somebody writes it in a comment. It's not practical. Th- this is something where I want you to actually be equipped for real life, and if that's, if I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job and th- this... then I'm not even following my passion, and what's the point of that? You're in a game called Praise or Provoke. Get that in y- in your mind when you talk to these people. Doesn't matter what you do. If you're not feeding them with control, you're... If you're not feeding th- the monster with your emotions, whether it's happy emotions or sad emotions, they will, they will turn into the worst types of personalities you'll ever experience, where you go, "I, I cannot do it." And I know you wanna fix it. That's what... You're good. I know. If you're listening to this episode, you're a good person, 'cause you're trying to figure out, "How, how do I do it? How do, how do I navigate these situations?" You wanna fix it. That's the rigged game. That's the rigged game, baby. [laughs] You, you, you... It looks beatable. It looks beatable. If you could just explain to them how what they said hurt you, if the... if you could just put it just the right way, and all of a sudden the light bulb's gonna click, and they're gonna... their eyes are gonna open, and they go, "Oh, my gosh, I've, I've said so many things that are so hurtful, and you're ri- you're right. I should take accountability for this, and I, I should be better about this." That will never happen. Don't do it. Have the mindset of just, one, acknowledging you're in the game. Two, what are practical ways, Jefferson,
- 8:07 – 10:08
Tool #1: use flat, neutral, very short responses (“Noted,” “Okay,” “Interesting”)
- JFJefferson Fisher
of how we're going to handle these kind of conversations? I'm gonna tell you. You want to use very neutral, flat statements. Why? Because they can't do anything with it. We're tempted in our default to say things that are going to incite, things that are gonna prove to them why they're wrong and why we're right. That doesn't work with narcissists. They don't do empathy. They don't do acknowledgement. They don't do accountability. So instead, we're going to use flat, neutral statements. These are statements like, "Noted. That's good to know. Thank you. Oh, interesting. I don't know." You hear just flat as can be. You can't do anything with those. You can't make something up in 'em. You can't take it and run with it. You can't twist them. Flat, neutral statements. I love "Noted." It's one of my favorites. When I'm talking to a client... Not a client, excuse me. When I'm talking to somebody who's an adverse witness, and they make some kind of snide comment, and I know... We're gonna talk about the type of personalities I cross-examine that I consider to be typically very narcissistic in their behavior. If I just say, "Noted," can't do anything with it. Can't do anything with it. When you have flat, neutral statements, you keep them very short. You hear how they're very short? They're not long. If you can keep it to one word, find one word that you like, that you can go to over and over and over and over, even if it's, "Okay." You hear how I said that? "Okay." It's not like, "Okay. Pfft. Okay," where it's rude or try to have some kind of tone into it. "Okay." Flat as can be. So find a word, very short, very flat, that you can't do anything with. Number three, I want you to have this mindset
- 10:08 – 11:08
Tool #2: limit time and depth—no ‘heart-to-heart’ processing conversations
- JFJefferson Fisher
of limited time, limited interaction. This is not the time when you're talking with these kind of people to sit down with your, with your hot tea and say, "Let's, let's talk it out. Let me, let me... I need to express to you all the things that have been boiling up inside me, and I really just... I need to, uh, empty out my bag with you and help talk about this kind of stuff." Nope. They're not gonna do it. Can't. They can't. Understand, they cannot. So when you get in those situations, keep it very limited. Even if it's a timeframe, keep the conversations as short as can be. When they start to lash out in different ways, go to your neutral statements, remember the game, and keep it very short. When you try to have a very quick clap back or a comeback, it's not gonna work. It's never gonna have the effect that you want it, want it to have. They, they don't, they don't do that kind of stuff. I'm going to tell you right now a tip that I've used a lot with these type
- 11:08 – 11:39
Leverage the “audience”: they care more about how they look than how you feel
- JFJefferson Fisher
of behaviors in cross-examination. Again, you take it however you wanna take it. I can promise you it works. See, people who exhibit narcissistic behaviors don't care about you. They care about everybody else, everybody else who they believe is watching them. Don't care about you. They care about the audience, the crowd. This is their stage, after all. Didn't you know? This is their platform.
- 11:39 – 16:46
Courtroom story: the arrogant expert witness and the power of referencing the jury
- JFJefferson Fisher
Everybody loves them. Everybody watches them, their audience, my people. That's what they see in their world. That's why they can't a- admit when they're wrong. It would hurt the ratings. It would hurt the views, right? So how do you use that to your advantage? Let me tell you a story. I was taking a deposition of an expert. That's the type of people I usually cross-examine. They show narcissistic tendencies, experts, and it's not because they are an expert. That does- that's not the, the bad pattern, not at all. There's some wonderful people that are experts of their field. I'm talking the type that drink their own Kool-Aid so much that, I mean, they just... They get drunk off of it. The people who just get intoxicated by the, the sound of their own voice. Now, they will... It's often a very highly specialized topic. Maybe it's a biomechanical engineer. Maybe it's a very highly qualified accident reconstructi- constructionist or, um, some specific niche down toxicologist. Something that's very, very, very high-end. You... We need these type of opinions in, in cases. Real quick, in, in certain... Well, uh, for sure in Texas and for sure in the US, you can't... I can't just go on the stand, or you can't just go on the stand and say, "Oh, yes, I'm gonna give an opinion about a, a toxicology report," or something of, uh, "I just, uh, t- tasted this water, and it has X amount of sodium in it." You can't just say that if you don't have the credentials to back it up. Anybody who's an attorney, you know Rule 702. You have to show that you have qualified knowledge, skills, training to be able to make these kind of opinions. Well, these experts know that, and typically, if they've been in the field a very long time, they have a very high opinion of themselves, and the good news is that's very good on paper to have a, a qualified opinion, but it's very bad for a jury, the, uh... Why? Because they come across as a jerk. They can come across as very snooty, very uppity, very full of themselves because a lot of times they are. The real experts that are awesome, and, I mean, a good expert can make your case. A bad expert can totally break your case. The ones that are extremely knowledgeable and are able to create the, the, the link between what's happened in the evidence and the law and, and, and show you why and kind of teach you through it, and also they're just a likable person, that's the kind of expert you want. Well, I was deposing, uh, no this... In, went into deposition. It was in a c- a case. A guy, um, and he was extremely... I mean, I'd already known in the deposition he was very, very full of himself. So I was asking him questions about my client's injury, talking about the case, and he made this opinion that was, uh, I couldn't even understand how he was making the opinion, but it was, it was about my client's injury, uh, saying that she couldn't have been injured in the car but yet somebody else who had been hit, who hit them, they had been injured, and he was okay with that. Anyway, we started talking, and I asked him a question, something pretty basic, and he s- and he said something to the tune of, "Well, I mean, I would explain it to you, but, you know, I don't know if that would really do any good." And the whole jury was like g- several of them kind of, like, pfft, gasped. They were like [gasps] oh. Like, r- their case was done after that. He had, he had hurt the opinion of the other side pretty bad, so, so badly that the other attorney in cl- closing argument had to kind of apologize for it and, and say, "Well, you can't... Him as a per- whatever you think of him as a person, you understand his opinion here today." Anyway, you gotta be careful of those kind of people, and the other attorney couldn't really do much about it, but it was just a, it was a not nice guy who we all knew, and the jury knew, and the judge knew. Everybody in the courtroom knew he was a narcissistic type of behavior. Now, what did I do in that case? I referred to the jury. He made a, an opinion, and I said, "If you think... And you think the jury's going to like this opinion," is what I said. I said, "You think the jury's gonna like this opinion?" And he almost, uh, instantly, you could see he kind of just did the calculation in his head and all of a sudden pivoted to say, "Well, I mean, uh, well, it's not so much about like. You know, what I, what I try to do in my experience in my field..." And he went on to just talk about himself. Now, see, what I did was I talked about the jury. Now, how do you apply this to your own life? They
- 16:46 – 18:18
Phrases that work: “If you think that’s a good look…” and “What would others think?”
- JFJefferson Fisher
don't care about you. They care about the audience. When you can say something to the tune of others and people, and I've used this tactic many times, and this is what it... This is how you do it. So let's break it down. Somebody says something that's, um, narcissistic, or a narcissist is talking to you and they say something. You respond like this: "If you think that's a good look," or, "If you think others are gonna like that," or, "I wonder what other people would think about this. I wonder what your friend would think about this," and you name that friend. "Now, I'm not, I'm not sure if others would agree." Any time that you talk about others or people, I have seen many, many times they will change their behavior almost instantly because it reminds them they're not talking to you. They're talking to the crowd, their people, and they will adjust their opinion, adjust their tone to fit the audience, even if it's invisible. In fact, especially when it's invisible because they just think all eyes are on them. Any time you can use the phrase, "Well, if, uh, if you think others are gonna agree with you..." See, that's very simple to say. "Hey, look, if you think others are gonna agree with you," or, "If you th- I, I wonder what other people would think about this. I wonder what other people would think about the way you just said that," they will turn. They will turn it. They will make it better. They will make it sound better. They will make it sound more empathetic, make it sound more sensitive
- 18:18 – 19:20
Clarifying the difference: everyone can act self-centered, but empathy and accountability are the divider
- JFJefferson Fisher
or sympathetic without actually exhibiting any of the real character traits. So when you talk about others, the takeaway here is when you talk about others, they will pay more attention to what they are saying and give a more productive output than when they think they're just talking to you. That's the takeaway. Narcissistic behaviors are not fun to deal with, but they're everywhere, and sometimes, you know what? Every single one of us can exhibit a behavior that some might call narcissistic. We can make things about us. We can say things we don't mean. The difference, the difference is the empathy. If I can take accountability for what I said, if I can apologize, if I can apologize, genuinely mean it, change my character, if I can empathize of what I said and I understand, if I can just say, "You know what? I, I can see how that affected you. I, I can see." Use the phrase, "I can see."
- 19:20 – 20:46
Recap and next steps: the three takeaways and where to continue learning
- JFJefferson Fisher
"I can see how that would upset you," and really mean it. Narcissistic people can't, can't do that. All right? So if you're wondering... I'm saying that to tell you if you're sitting there thinking, "Am I the, the narcissist?" If you are asking yourself that question, you are not. If you're asking yourself that question, you are not. All right, the takeaway here, number one, understand when you're talking to a narcissist, you're playing a game. It's Praise or Provoke. Understand that you're in that game, and it's rigged. You cannot beat it. Two, when it comes to responding, rather than engaging and inciting more of a conflict, which again feeds into the game, you're going to use short, controlled, flat statements, and three, if you need to, use phrases that are going to give attention or recall to the crowd. Talk about others. Talk about people, and they will adjust it rather than thinking they are just talking to you. So use what you know about narcissists, and use that to your advantage in a way that is safe. All right? Cool. If you enjoy podcasts and episodes like this to improve your communication, again, I'm gonna ask you to please follow this podcast. My book, The Next Conversation, is out. You can find the links down in the show notes, and if you are wanting to continue to improve your communication further and practice it, The School of Communication is live. Again, the link is in the show notes. All right. As always, you can try that and follow me.
Episode duration: 20:47
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