Relationship Expert: The Biggest Signs of Emotional Immaturity

1. 0:00 – 1:33

   Are you “emotionally fed” enough to date? (The grocery shopping analogy)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      How do you know when you yourself are ready to be in a relationship?

   2. QWQuinlan Walther0:08

      I like to frame this in a, in a funny way. Have you ever heard of the saying, "You shouldn't go grocery shopping when you're starving"? Are you familiar with that?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:17

      I am familiar-

   4. QWQuinlan Walther0:18

      Yeah [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:18

      ... with it, and I, intimately. [laughs]

   6. QWQuinlan Walther0:20

      Intimately, yes. [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher0:21

      I've, I've ordered some bad grocery store sushi, uh, you know, when just like-

   8. QWQuinlan Walther0:25

      When you're starving

   9. JFJefferson Fisher0:25

      ... when I'm starving.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther0:26

       Yes.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher0:26

       That's always a bad call.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther0:27

       So this also applies to dating.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

       Okay.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther0:31

       It's not a great idea to go grocery shopping when you're starving because you choose the first thing that you see. You choose the thing that will be immediately gratifying, that looks the most exciting, maybe just sometimes the closest thing to you.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher0:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. QWQuinlan Walther0:41

       Right? The same thing applies to dating and relationships as well. When you go out and you start dating, you wanna have a pretty decent understanding of how you keep yourself figuratively fed or emotionally-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

       Yeah

   18. QWQuinlan Walther0:53

       ... fed.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

       Right.

   20. QWQuinlan Walther0:54

       So who are you? What do you like about yourself? How do you support yourself? How do you show up for yourself when you're managing a difficult situation, big emotions?

   21. JFJefferson Fisher1:05

       Yeah.

   22. QWQuinlan Walther1:06

       How do you show up and care for yourself? These are important questions. Do you like the relationship that you have with yourself?

   23. JFJefferson Fisher1:13

       Mm.

   24. QWQuinlan Walther1:13

       Are you a person of character? Right? Can you rely on yourself to be honest, to be kind, to be supportive? These all play into how we show up and care for ourselves and keep ourselves metaphorically, emotionally fed-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher1:28

       Mm

   26. QWQuinlan Walther1:28

       ... so that we don't jump at someone else's breadcrumbs, uh, when we get into the dating scene.

2. 1:33 – 5:06

   Honoring loneliness without letting it drive your decisions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:33

      Do you find that when you have the, like this early onset moment, which I hear you saying, okay, don't, don't go grocery shopping when you're hungry.

   2. QWQuinlan Walther1:43

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:44

      A pushback or thought is, "Well, Quinlan, I'm hungry. Like, what am I supposed to... How... I have a need that is to be filled, and that is I don't want to be alone."

   4. QWQuinlan Walther1:53

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:54

      You know, that's my deep, it's not only my fear, it's my what- it could be my insecurity, it could be whatever that is. How do you begin to take care of that inner self need without seeking that in somebody else?

   6. QWQuinlan Walther2:06

      Mm. Well, first is just honor the fact that you, that's what you want.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:11

      Mm-hmm.

   8. QWQuinlan Walther2:11

      That's a normal, very normal human thing to want. We're wired to create connection with people around us.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher2:17

      Right.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther2:17

       It's, it's primal. [laughs] So honor that and really care for yourself. Like, I really want a relationship, and I don't have one right now, and that's kinda tough, so I'm not gonna pretend that I don't feel that way. Allow it to be there and accept it.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher2:32

       Mm-hmm.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther2:32

       And understand that you don't want just any relationship. You want a fulfilling, aligned relationship.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:40

       That I like.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther2:41

       Most of us would.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:41

       Yeah. Well, I think everybody would.

   16. QWQuinlan Walther2:42

       [laughs]

   17. JFJefferson Fisher2:42

       Yeah. Uh, no.

   18. QWQuinlan Walther2:43

       Some people are like, "No, I just-"

   19. JFJefferson Fisher2:43

       "I really want a, a super misaligned, uh, relationship."

   20. QWQuinlan Walther2:45

       "Just give me the closest thing. Where's the closest thing?" [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher2:48

       Yeah. No, I, I, that, now that I like. Of, there are things that you could say worth waiting for, and also what's ultimately, like if we put it to the grocery store analogy, I am most likely gonna make the worst decisions when I'm hungry.

   22. QWQuinlan Walther3:07

       Mm.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher3:07

       And in fact, the research showed that the later it gets in the day, the worse decisions that we actually make because we're using up all of that energy. The same energy we use to exercise is the same energy we use to make decisions. Like, they did a study on judges in the courtrooms.

   24. QWQuinlan Walther3:24

       Mm.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

       They make better, softer, kinder rulings in the morning than they do in the evening.

   26. QWQuinlan Walther3:28

       No kidding.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher3:29

       Yeah, because-

   28. QWQuinlan Walther3:29

       Oh

   29. JFJefferson Fisher3:29

       ... they're tired, and they just, they don't, they don't care. W- when do we eat junk food usually?

   30. QWQuinlan Walther3:34

       Well-
3. 5:06 – 6:09

   Know your values and future vision before you commit

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:06

      What do you need to know about yourself before you get into a relationship?

   2. QWQuinlan Walther5:12

      I think it's a good idea to have a, an understanding of what you're looking for. What are some of your values, your vision of the future?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:21

      Mm-hmm.

   4. QWQuinlan Walther5:21

      Do you wanna live in the small town that you grew up in forever and ever?

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:26

      Mm.

   6. QWQuinlan Walther5:26

      Do you wanna move out to the big city and, you know, live the city life? Do you wanna... What do, w- what does life look like for you when you think of 10 years from now, 15 years from now?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:36

      Mm.

   8. QWQuinlan Walther5:36

      Just have a general idea. It can change.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:38

      Mm-hmm.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther5:38

       But that's important because when you go into a relationship, when you're building a long-term relationship with someone, you wanna be able to say, "Hey, here's the life that I'm trying to build. Here are my values," if family is a value for you, if work is a top value for you.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:52

       Mm-hmm.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther5:52

       You know, what's important to you, "And this is what I'm building."

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:55

       Mm-hmm.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther5:55

       And you find someone that says, "Oh, my vision's pretty similar to that, too," or, "My vision's not similar to that at all"-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher6:02

       Yeah

   16. QWQuinlan Walther6:02

       ... "and it doesn't seem like we'd be working towards the same thing." Having that in mind is important.

4. 6:09 – 11:45

   Not ready vs. ready: accountability and willingness to look outside yourself

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:09

      To me, there's this, hmm, if I say, "Before I do anything with you, I gotta fix me," right?

   2. QWQuinlan Walther6:17

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:17

      And th- that right there is a lot of knowing... I, I guess the question is: how do you... somebody who's listening right now, how do they know when they're not ready to be in a relationship?

   4. QWQuinlan Walther6:33

      If you can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and accept that accountability is a foreign concept to you-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:40

      Mm-hmm

   6. QWQuinlan Walther6:41

      ... then you probably shouldn't be in a relationship. And the catch-22 is that most people that lack accountability won't be able to look themselves in the mirror and acknowledge that. But-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:48

      Yeah

   8. QWQuinlan Walther6:48

      ... uh, relationships thrive when you are able to meet someone who is looking to meet someone and share a life together, build a relationship together.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:57

      Mm-hmm.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther6:57

       And that means that you're gonna have to take accountability for your side of the street.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher7:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther7:01

       So am I equally contributing to the connection of this relationship? Let's, let's go, let's play small here. So if I come home from work, and I'm, my husband is there, and I'm saying, "Ugh, I had such a bad day. I just need 15 minutes. I'm gonna go upstairs, take a shower, and then we can eat dinner," just really working through a lot right now. And he can say, "Okay, she's not upset with me. There's not something that I did that I don't know about," right? There's no passive aggressive huffing or puffing. I'm able to say, "Hey, this is how I'm feeling." I can take accountability for how I'm feeling.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:35

       Mm.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther7:35

       I can communicate in the relationship, and he's grateful for it in, in the long run. That creates connection.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:41

       Mm.

   16. QWQuinlan Walther7:42

       Versus I come home from work, I've had a bad day, I'm huffing and puffing, maybe slamming a door or two. He's like, "Hey, how you doing?"

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:50

       Mm-hmm.

   18. QWQuinlan Walther7:50

       I'm like, "Fine." And he doesn't know if he did something wrong or if it, something bad happened that he doesn't know about, if it was just an average day that was difficult. So point being, there's accountability in being able to say, "I'm accountable for my feelings. I'm accountable for the relationship that I wanna create-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

       Yeah

   20. QWQuinlan Walther8:07

       ... the dynamic of that relationship." Um, and you're responsible all in all for how you wanna show up and communicate with the person that you're in a relationship with.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher8:17

       I wanna make sure that... I, I feel like this conversation is something to the person who not only is single but also is in any type of relationship-

   22. QWQuinlan Walther8:31

       Mm

   23. JFJefferson Fisher8:31

       ... and also those that have been married for, you know, forever long, to, even to the people who've been married for 30-plus years. Because I, I, I, I believe there's something for each one of them in this conversation. When I think of, how do I know, what can we tell somebody to know if they're ready to be in a conversation, is the first thing that kind of passes through my mind is if you're wondering, you're probably not. Like, if you are asking that, that inner question of, "I don't think I'm, I'm ready," I would much rather you know that answer than go into a relationship always wondering. Like, if you were in it and knowing that I'm not the person that the relationship requires me to be. Is that... When you think of somebody saying, "I don't know if I'm ready," Quinlan, is there a, a marker or a line that you feel like you need to cross this before you know that you're ready to enter into a relationship? And maybe it is that accountability, and I'm curious if there's something else.

   24. QWQuinlan Walther9:39

       There's, there has to be a real willingness, long-term love specifically, and this is familial, platonic, romantic-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher9:50

       Mm-hmm

   26. QWQuinlan Walther9:51

       ... just relationships in general, love that exists in relationships. It's really willingness to look outside of yourself, willingness to see that your friend of 20 years is really changing their tune. They're withdrawing. You aren't hearing from them as much. You usually talk three times a week, and-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher10:09

       Mm-hmm

   28. QWQuinlan Walther10:09

       ... they've been, like, nowhere to be found, getting kind of distant. Can you inconvenience yourself to show up to their house or make a phone call or whatever and be like, "Hey, I really love you and something seems off"?

   29. JFJefferson Fisher10:20

       Mm-hmm.

   30. QWQuinlan Walther10:21

       "You know, I don't, I, I'm noticing it. If you wanna talk about it, I'd love to talk about it. If it's nothing, it's nothing, but I love you and I care."
5. 11:45 – 14:36

   Vulnerability: what it is (and what it isn’t)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:45

      I do, though, feel that there is, um, if there's one, like, kinda key word for me is you are not ready for a relationship if you are not ready to be vulnerable.

   2. QWQuinlan Walther11:57

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher11:58

      Like, if you don't know, the worst thing you can do is... Well, certainly you create a lot of problems when you go into a relationship and you don't know yourself.

   4. QWQuinlan Walther12:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher12:08

      And when in fact you've just given them a version- ... of you or given you some, they, you've given them a facade, and so they fell in love with some other version of you that you don't know if that's really you-

   6. QWQuinlan Walther12:20

      Mm-hmm

   7. JFJefferson Fisher12:20

      ... or not. And so I think it can be very crippling later in a relationship if that element of vulnerability is not there from the start.

   8. QWQuinlan Walther12:33

      Completely agree. And vulnerability, I think, is often misconstrued, where we think vulnerability is just tears, it's just sadness, just s- s- sharing a super emotional moment with someone, and sometimes it is.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher12:45

      Yeah.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther12:45

       And other times it's just saying, "Hey, I'm scared." It's saying, "Hey, I'm feeling kind of insecure. Hey, I'm struggling with this thing."

   11. JFJefferson Fisher12:54

       Yeah.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther12:54

       "Hey, this hurts, and I don't really know why, but I wanna share it with you because you love me, and that's what people who love each other do."

   13. JFJefferson Fisher13:01

       Yeah.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther13:01

       There's, vulnerability, I think, gets, um, misunderstood.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher13:04

       Before we keep going, I'm gonna tell you about Masa Chips. Now, hear me. You go, "Jefferson, are you making, uh, are you talking to me about chips?" Yes, I am. That's how good they are. You know what it's like. You've been to the restaurants. You've been at the grocery store where you get those big bags of tortilla chips, and you can eat your weight in them. And then you look at how many preservatives, seed oils, and everything else, and you feel like trash. Well, I can tell you that Masa Chips has changed the game for us in our house. They are small batch chips. Uh, they are organic. They are cooked in 100% grass-fed beef tallow, and they taste delicious. And it's not just the taste to where you could really eat a lot of them and still feel awesome. It's that they hold up in the dip. You know what I'm talking about? Where, like, you, you dip in some good guacamole or some salsa, and it breaks, and it's like, "Oh, okay, well, life's ruined." They hold up, all right? So this is, these are important things you have to know about chips. You know what I'm saying? It's important stuff, too. If you're like me and you need to have some awesome chips in your life, go to masachips.com. My favorite is their... Kids like the churro oats. It's like cinnamon. They're awesome. Sierra likes hatch chili. I just like the plain, like, white natural corn. That's my, that's mine. I'm a vanilla type guy. Come on. Go to masachips.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 25% off your first order. That's masachips.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 25% off. And now, let's keep going. Can you have a good relationship without vulnerability?

6. 14:36 – 15:49

   Why avoiding vulnerability creates disconnection (Gottman bids for connection)

   1. QWQuinlan Walther14:36

      No. In fact, all of the ways that we try to protect ourselves from vulnerability end up leading to the very disconnection that tends to ruin relationships.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher14:46

      Hmm.

   3. QWQuinlan Walther14:47

      The Gottmans study this for decades.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher14:50

      Shout out to the Gottmans.

   5. QWQuinlan Walther14:51

      And they... Shout out to the Gottmans. [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher14:52

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. QWQuinlan Walther14:53

      We love-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher14:54

      Yeah

   9. QWQuinlan Walther14:54

      ... the Gottmans. Uh, bids for connection, turning towards each other.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher14:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. QWQuinlan Walther14:59

       Being able to say, "Hey, I wanna share a story with you. Hey, I wanna share how I'm feeling. Hey, there's this happy moment that happened," or, "Hey, there's this difficult thing-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher15:10

       Yeah

   13. QWQuinlan Walther15:10

       ... that's on my mind." And your partner goes, "Tell me about it. Yes, I wanna hear." Right? Bids for connection. You meet each other.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher15:16

       Mm-hmm.

   15. QWQuinlan Walther15:16

       When we're avoiding vulnerability, we don't do that. We're too busy protecting ourselves.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher15:22

       Right.

   17. QWQuinlan Walther15:22

       We're too busy putting walls up. We're too busy... I say, "Hey, I, I have something to, to tell you. You know, can, can we talk a little bit?" Bid for connection. It's, "Ugh, I don't have any time. You know, I, I, I have so much to do. Too busy. Can't, can't make it happen." It's, well, you, you're over here trying to protect yourself, not being vulnerable, not leaning into the relationship, and it ends up causing the very disconnection that, um, will end up being the end of the relationship. Um-

7. 15:49 – 17:16

   The pressure cooker: expecting one partner to meet all needs

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:49

      You think you can put too much pressure on a relationship?

   2. QWQuinlan Walther15:53

      Do I ever.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher15:54

      [laughs]

   4. QWQuinlan Walther15:54

      Yes. Yes. I think there's a real difficulty... There's difficulty when we expect our partner to meet all of our needs-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher16:07

      Mm

   6. QWQuinlan Walther16:07

      ... all the time. We expect them to be our primary source of fulfillment, self-worth, happiness, enthusiasm, and that creates a pressure cooker f- on, on a person who has finite capacity. They have the same 24 hours in a day that we do, and, and they have a whole other life to tend to. So part of the issue with putting too much pressure on a relationship is that you end up leading with more criticism because you aren't getting exactly what you want when you want it. You end up leading with more disappointment and more resentment because the person naturally cannot meet you in all the ways that you want to be met. And as we were talking about with the bids of connection and turning towards each other, you can't be playful and fun and appreciative-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher16:51

      Mm-hmm

   8. QWQuinlan Walther16:51

      ... when you're surrounded by criticism and defensiveness and disappointment. So you really have to look outside of yourself again and consider what someone's capacity is because if they can't meet you in every which way that you wanna be met, that doesn't mean that they don't love you. It just means that they have a limited amount of capacity, and you need to take accountability for some of the needs that you're looking to fill.

8. 17:16 – 25:13

   What “meet them” and “lean in” look like in real life

   1. JFJefferson Fisher17:16

      There are phrases that you'll hear often in, whether it's relationship advice or therapy. They'll use phrases like, "Meet them" or, "Lean in."

   2. QWQuinlan Walther17:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher17:29

      To the, to the people who don't hear those word... What do those words practically mean?

   4. QWQuinlan Walther17:35

      Mm. Okay, so let's play out a scenario.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher17:40

      And I have, I have my point of view on it.

   6. QWQuinlan Walther17:42

      Your [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher17:42

      I wa- I wanna hear, I wanna hear your point of view on it.

   8. QWQuinlan Walther17:44

      Okay, I love this. So let's say that you have had a wonderful week. You had a big promotion, and you were super excited about it, and you come home to your family or your romantic partner, whoever it is.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher17:57

      Mm-hmm.

   10. QWQuinlan Walther17:57

       And you're jumping up and down, "This is so great." And they aren't meeting you in the ways that you wanna be. They're not jumping up and down with you. They actually seem kind of quiet, "Oh, that's, that's really great." You know, at least kind of humdrum and around.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher18:10

       Mm-hmm.

   12. QWQuinlan Walther18:10

       And you're thinking, "This-" They don't... What is this? How could they disappoint me this way?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher18:15

       Mm.

   14. QWQuinlan Walther18:15

       They're not happy for me? How could they not be happy for me? I've been working so hard for this.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher18:19

       Mm-hmm.

   16. QWQuinlan Walther18:19

       Do they not even notice how hard I've been working? Do they see me at all? We start to make a lot of assumptions about what someone else's behavior means. So when we say lean in, what we do there is we take our context, our situation, and we allow that to be separate from what's going on with the other person. And we can lean in and say, "Hey, what I'm seeing is that you, you don't seem as excited as I thought you'd be right now"

   17. JFJefferson Fisher18:45

       Mm-hmm

   18. QWQuinlan Walther18:45

       "What's going on there? Can you, can you tell me what I'm missing?" The story in my head is X, Y, or Z. You don't love me, you're not excited-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher18:55

       Mm-hmm

   20. QWQuinlan Walther18:55

       ... you don't see me. And I wanna lean in and create space for you to share your experience without me assuming that I know what's going on.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher19:04

       I wanna, I wanna push on that more. So, but I don't, what I don't hear you saying is you need to match. Like, whatever energy that somebody's coming in, you have to match that energy. You're not saying that.

   22. QWQuinlan Walther19:14

       I don't like match their energy.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher19:15

       Okay. So when somebody is super excited and maybe you can't meet them in being super excited, right? So we're not gonna say match their energy. What's, what are some other words you use?

   24. QWQuinlan Walther19:28

       S- how someone... Are you saying as the person who's excited or as the person who isn't quite able to meet them in that moment?

   25. JFJefferson Fisher19:36

       I'm trying to help the person who's going two ways. I'm trying to help the person who says, "Jefferson, Quinlan, I don't feel like m- my partner meets me or leans in"

   26. QWQuinlan Walther19:48

       Mm.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher19:48

       Okay? "So how do I explain to them what I need?" 'Cause there are people who are not able to voice-

   28. QWQuinlan Walther19:54

       Mm

   29. JFJefferson Fisher19:54

       ... or define exactly what they need, and so help me teach them.

   30. QWQuinlan Walther19:57

       Love that.
9. 25:13 – 31:52

   Build self-relationship with better questions: stories, assumptions, and ‘what else could be true’

   1. QWQuinlan Walther25:13

      And what you just explained ex- is exactly how you build a relationship with yourself that directly benefits the relationship you have with other people.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher25:22

      Tell me, okay, let me ask this.

   3. QWQuinlan Walther25:23

      If-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher25:23

      How, how do you, how do you build a better relationship with yourself?

   5. QWQuinlan Walther25:25

      Well, that question right there, why am I feeling the way that I'm feeling?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher25:30

      Mm-hmm.

   7. QWQuinlan Walther25:30

      What is important to me here? What am I trying to get? What do, what am I afraid of losing? What-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher25:38

      Mm

   9. QWQuinlan Walther25:38

      ... what is the hurt? Like, what's, what's going on inside of me? To stop and ask yourself that question, s- 70% of the battle. [laughs] 70% of the work right there.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher25:47

       Yeah.

   11. QWQuinlan Walther25:48

       Uh, in w- in part to build a relationship with yourself, but also if you don't have the patience and the practice of meeting yourself in that way, you're far less likely to be able to extend it to someone else, someone that you love.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher25:59

       Sure.

   13. QWQuinlan Walther25:59

       So if you're used to suppressing your feelings, pushing them away, busying yourself away from whatever emotions are under the surface-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher26:08

       Mm-hmm

   15. QWQuinlan Walther26:08

       ... you're likely to treat the people that you love the same way.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher26:11

       What's a question that you can ask yourself in the moment to position yourself to show up better-

   17. QWQuinlan Walther26:21

       Mm

   18. JFJefferson Fisher26:22

       ... in the relationship?

   19. QWQuinlan Walther26:23

       What is the story I'm, what, what is the story I'm telling myself right now?

   20. JFJefferson Fisher26:29

       That's wild. That was, that was, that was my exact question.

   21. QWQuinlan Walther26:31

       Were you thinking that, too? [laughs]

   22. JFJefferson Fisher26:32

       Yeah, yeah, that was like this question.

   23. QWQuinlan Walther26:33

       It's so good.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher26:34

       Yeah.

   25. QWQuinlan Walther26:34

       It's so good.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher26:35

       All right.

   27. QWQuinlan Walther26:36

       If we, if we take a step back, we are making meaning-

   28. JFJefferson Fisher26:39

       Yes

   29. QWQuinlan Walther26:40

       ... of everything. We are making assumptions about everything. We are assuming what someone else's behavior means about us, what someone else's behavior means about the state of our relationship, the future of our relationship.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher26:50

       Mm-hmm.
10. 31:52 – 33:59

    Honesty vs. transparency: trust is built before you’re asked

    1. JFJefferson Fisher31:52

       How important is honesty in a relationship?

    2. QWQuinlan Walther31:56

       Incredibly important, and transparency is right there next to it.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher32:01

       How do you communicate those things?

    4. QWQuinlan Walther32:03

       So honesty is telling the truth. Transparency is bringing the truth forward, even if it isn't prompted. So instead of saying, you come home after a long Tuesday, and your wife's like, "Hey, what's up? It's 9:00."

    5. JFJefferson Fisher32:18

       Mm-hmm.

    6. QWQuinlan Walther32:18

       And you're like, "Oh, well, I went out with the guys, got some food, grabbed a beer, you know, no big deal."

    7. JFJefferson Fisher32:24

       Mm-hmm.

    8. QWQuinlan Walther32:24

       And she's thinking, "Okay, well, you were honest about where you were, but it would've been nice to know that earlier."

    9. JFJefferson Fisher32:29

       Mm-hmm.

    10. QWQuinlan Walther32:29

        Versus Tuesday morning on your way out the door, "Hey, babe. I think I'm gonna grab some food with the guys after work tonight. You okay with that? Is that, does that work with our schedule?" Whatever.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher32:38

        Yeah.

    12. QWQuinlan Walther32:38

        She says, "Yeah. Great, thanks. Appreciate it." You're being transparent. You're being forward with your communication.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher32:44

        Yeah.

    14. QWQuinlan Walther32:44

        And both things are necessary.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher32:47

        Yeah, when you, when you're able to do what you say you're gonna do-

    16. QWQuinlan Walther32:49

        Mm-hmm

    17. JFJefferson Fisher32:49

        ... which is also, like, very affirming and decreases that, that anxiety and builds that level of trust, of knowing you could have said it-

    18. QWQuinlan Walther33:00

        Mm-hmm

    19. JFJefferson Fisher33:00

        ... but if they have to ask you for it.

    20. QWQuinlan Walther33:01

        Yeah.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher33:01

        There's something about when they have to ask you for it, it kind of takes away from that moment where you could have actually built upon trust.

    22. QWQuinlan Walther33:11

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher33:11

        Like, you missed that, that trust opportunity.

    24. QWQuinlan Walther33:13

        Yeah. It is a difficult thing, and it's, it's difficult when you are trying so desperately to bring that honesty and reliability out of someone who isn't being reliable and trustworthy unprompted, where you are begging someone to change, when you are begging them to be someone that they naturally aren't.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher33:34

        Mm-hmm.

    26. QWQuinlan Walther33:34

        It can be quite frustrating. You know, there's a real, there's a real sense of honesty you have to have with yourself where you look at your relationships and say, "Am I trying harder to change this person than I am able to just accept them?"

    27. JFJefferson Fisher33:47

        Yeah.

    28. QWQuinlan Walther33:48

        "And if I just accept them exactly as they are, allowing them to show up how they want to show up, do I like the person that they are and the relationship that that creates?" That's a difficult situation.

11. 33:59 – 39:10

    Emotional immaturity: core signs, red flags, and how it shows up quietly

    1. JFJefferson Fisher33:59

       How do you know if the person you're with is emotionally immature?

    2. QWQuinlan Walther34:06

       If all the problems in their life are someone else's fault, if they can't be honest or forthright in their communication, if they're passive aggressive or lash out, if they struggle to handle big emotions, so emotionally regulate. In a lot of ways, emotional immaturity means someone's insecurities are going to take up all the space in a relationship. There isn't room for anything other than their wants, their needs, their desires-

    3. JFJefferson Fisher34:36

       Mm-hmm

    4. QWQuinlan Walther34:36

       ... their feelings, their reactions, and it creates very little space for anyone else who wants to meet them there. So if you realize that someone you have a relationship with is really centered around just them-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher34:48

       Mm-hmm

    6. QWQuinlan Walther34:48

       ... and their feelings, there's likely a sense of emotional immaturity at play.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher34:52

       Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about OneSkin. One of the biggest things of whether or not I'm really gonna take care of my skin, uh, and my face is how easy is it? [laughs] How quick is it? Is it a big routine? Is it crazy? Is, is it simple? And for me, simple is better. That's why I've been using OneSkin. They have this product that's called OS1. It's a face moisturizer. It comes in this cool little bottle, two pumps, and I put it on and it's not greasy. Um, it makes my face feel good. Uh, uh, everything feels smooth. Everything feels exactly as it should and not in a bad, greasy, this feels kind of gross way. Something simple that I like to use. And so I've been using it for now for the past few months, and I really like it. If you are somebody like me and you go, "I really want a simple routine," look no further than OS1 from OneSkin. It is backed by longevity experts. It, it was, the company was started by four PhD longevity clinicians that really look at what's happening to the skin on the cellular level. OneSkin is born from 10 years of longevity research. It's helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. For a limited time, you can get 15% off at oneskin.co/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson. Again, that's 15% off at oneskin.co/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson. And after you order, if they ask you where you heard about them, feel f-free to mention and drop our name. And now, let's keep going. I want to break it down a little bit more simple. Like, what, what would be, what would be some red flags that the person they're dating, someone who's emotionally immature?

    8. QWQuinlan Walther36:31

       Mm. If they buy into all of their assumptions.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher36:35

       Hmm.

    10. QWQuinlan Walther36:35

        So if something happens and they're immediately coming at you with, "You did that because you don't love me, because you don't find me attractive-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher36:43

        Assuming intent

    12. QWQuinlan Walther36:43

        ... because you don't value me."

    13. JFJefferson Fisher36:44

        Yeah.

    14. QWQuinlan Walther36:44

        You- they're assigning meaning.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher36:46

        Hmm.

    16. QWQuinlan Walther36:46

        Absolutely. If they can't take a look at that and think, "That's black-and-white thinking. Maybe I'm missing some of the color," that's a sign. If they expect you to read their mind, if they expect you to anticipate all of their needs and then get upset with you when you don't, that's also a sign. There's a, it's really a sense of volatility. There, there's a sense of, "I don't know what I'm going to get."

    17. JFJefferson Fisher37:10

        Yes.

    18. QWQuinlan Walther37:10

        That's, there's em- emotional immaturity because someone who cares for you and is emotionally mature [laughs] wants you to feel safe, wants you to feel at ease in relationship with them. Someone who's emotionally immature is too caught up in themselves to be able to consider the person that they're in a relationship with.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher37:26

        And I think they are, they're the also the person who expects somebody else to solve all their problems.

    20. QWQuinlan Walther37:30

        Mm-hmm. Completely agree.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher37:32

        Like, I also try to think of when I typically get questions about emotional immaturity, it's the person who has no problem making an absolute scene at the dinner table. Like, it doesn't matter if they're in public, it doesn't matter where it is, that n- it's actually the attention that they're wanting by trying to show the fluctuations. So the word volatile, I think is the absolute right word that you use of, they're so reactionary-

    22. QWQuinlan Walther38:06

        Mm-hmm

    23. JFJefferson Fisher38:06

        ... that y- you, you never have steady footing.

    24. QWQuinlan Walther38:13

        Mm-hmm. Well, and in a lot of ways, to be frank, we all have some emotionally immature tendencies.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher38:21

        For sure.

    26. QWQuinlan Walther38:22

        Mo- most of us. I won't, uh [laughs] I won't say all of us. But it's a, it's a, it's a great point of reflection.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher38:27

        Sure.

    28. QWQuinlan Walther38:27

        Thinking, "Huh, where am I demanding? Where am I too self-centered? Where am I avoiding vulnerability?" 'Cause that works both ways, right? Sometimes they shut down-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher38:39

        Mm-hmm

    30. QWQuinlan Walther38:39

        ... and they withdraw. They aren't always yelling and screaming at the dinner table.
12. 39:10 – 45:31

    Attractive communication: curiosity, kindness, humor, boundaries, and clarity

    1. JFJefferson Fisher39:10

       I, I am curious, Ms. Quinlan-

    2. QWQuinlan Walther39:13

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher39:13

       ... on, yeah, I've been out of the dating scene for, uh-

    4. QWQuinlan Walther39:18

       15 years

    5. JFJefferson Fisher39:18

       ... yeah, for a long time.

    6. QWQuinlan Walther39:19

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher39:19

       But I mean, but yeah. And I am curious of your thoughts here. What would you say is the most attractive communication trait?

    8. QWQuinlan Walther39:33

       What would I say is the most attractive communication trait? Well-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher39:36

       Or behavior

    10. QWQuinlan Walther39:37

        ... humor. Humor signals intelligence in an interesting way, where if someone can be warm and charismatic, that signals intelligence, and it's enjoyable, right? We are drawn to enjoyable experiences.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher39:52

        Mm-hmm.

    12. QWQuinlan Walther39:52

        So if you can have a joyful, charismatic conversation with someone, they're more likely to like you.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher39:58

        Yeah.

    14. QWQuinlan Walther39:58

        Being kind is another way to communicate that is incredibly attractive.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher40:03

        Mm-hmm.

    16. QWQuinlan Walther40:03

        Kindness signals the fact that you'd likely be kind to the person you're speaking with in the future if you're in a relationship with them somewhere down the line.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher40:10

        Mm-hmm.

    18. QWQuinlan Walther40:10

        And they've been kind from the get, you can think, "That would probably be a good relationship. I'd like to have them around more."

    19. JFJefferson Fisher40:17

        Yeah.

    20. QWQuinlan Walther40:17

        So there's... It's really coming down to... Here's a question I would ask yourself: Would you want to have 10,000 conversations with you?

    21. JFJefferson Fisher40:27

        Mm-hmm.

    22. QWQuinlan Walther40:27

        With the way that you communicate, would you wanna have 10,000 dinner conversations, breakfast conversations, late-night pillow talk, uh, conversations? And if the answer is no, then think to yourself, "Okay, why?"

    23. JFJefferson Fisher40:39

        Mm-hmm.

    24. QWQuinlan Walther40:39

        "Do I need to be a little bit m- uh, kinder in the way that I speak? Do I need to be a bit more open?"

    25. JFJefferson Fisher40:46

        Mm-hmm.

    26. QWQuinlan Walther40:46

        "Do I want to be a bit more humorous in the way that I communicate?" S- take a good look at your norms, if you will, because the person that you choose, if you want a long-term relationship, you're likely to have thousands and thousands of conversations with them.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher41:03

        When you're in conversation with somebody, uh, let's say you're dating, what do you think would be one of the most attractive things that that person can say that you're looking for in a partner?

    28. QWQuinlan Walther41:15

        Well, it depends on what each person is looking for individually.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher41:20

        Mm-hmm.

    30. QWQuinlan Walther41:20

        What I value may not be the same thing that the next person values, that the next person values. But I think someone who's able to stand in their boundaries and say, "Here's the kind of relationship that I want. This is what I'm willing to give, and this is what I'm not." So you can say, "Hey, I really value my work. Work is really important to me, and I really want a relationship."
13. 45:31 – 58:50

    From indirect to direct: scripts for requests and unspoken expectations

    1. JFJefferson Fisher45:31

       What... How do you think in, in your, specifically in your field of relationships, how can we cu- communicate more directly?

    2. QWQuinlan Walther45:40

       I have two takes on this. Number one is by owning the fact that you haven't been communicating as directly as you'd like. And if you are in a relationship with someone, share that with them.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher45:52

       Hmm.

    4. QWQuinlan Walther45:53

       "Hey, I'm really trying to take a look at how clearly and directly I communicate because I value you and I value this relationship."

    5. JFJefferson Fisher45:59

       Mm-hmm.

    6. QWQuinlan Walther46:00

       "Is there anything I've been unclear about that you'd like me to be more direct with?" Start there because sometimes, again, if you're in a relationship, that person likely sees some of the blind spots in you that you don't see. You're [laughs] asking them their take is a really good place to start. And again, it shows that you care. It shows that you value the relationship.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher46:22

       Mm-hmm.

    8. QWQuinlan Walther46:22

       And it shows them that even though you may not have been showing up in all of the best ways, you're accountable. You're reliable.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher46:30

       Mm-hmm.

    10. QWQuinlan Walther46:31

        The other, um, the other approach here that I would take is to write down what it is that you've been afraid to say 'cause we likely have a deep knowing what the things are that we don't want other people to see, that we don't wanna communicate about, that we're afraid to share.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher46:48

        Hmm.

    12. QWQuinlan Walther46:48

        There's likely a deep knowing, and if you can start by writing it out, start by writing out those fears, the things that you don't want other people to hear come out of your mouth, that's a good place to start because now you have your list of the very things that you're likely being indirect about.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher47:05

        So when we say, how do we communicate more directly in relationships, one of the ways is to voice that you're trying to improve your communication, how direct it is, and that's certainly one version and tells people you're trying to improve. And that and alone is, I think, a, a very admirable, a wonderful quality that's talking about the process of how communi- I wanna improve myself. Two is write them out. What are some things you're afraid of saying out loud? Is there a certain way or mindset you want to approach, how do I be more direct with this person that I'm considering adding to my life?

    14. QWQuinlan Walther47:44

        Hmm. Well, it's a good practice that pays off beyond just your romantic relationships.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher47:49

        Mm-hmm.

    16. QWQuinlan Walther47:49

        Being able to be honest with yourself, be honest with people that you care about, and you're taking responsibility for how you show up, uh, as a part of other people's lives.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher47:59

        Mm-hmm.

    18. QWQuinlan Walther48:00

        So whether that's, again, family, friends, or romantic partners, to be able to look at who you are to someone else and take that relationship seriously-

    19. JFJefferson Fisher48:13

        Mm-hmm

    20. QWQuinlan Walther48:13

        ... to say, "I haven't been communicating all that well. I've probably left people confused or put off, maybe even directly hurt."

    21. JFJefferson Fisher48:21

        Mm-hmm.

    22. QWQuinlan Walther48:22

        "And I take my role as a friend, as a partner, as a parent, I take that seriously enough to work on that. And so I wanna show up as an intentional friend, as an intentional partner, as an intentional parent, which means I'm gonna work on these things." Understanding that in your own mind, that working on these things makes you a better person at your core. It builds your character.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher48:44

        Mm-hmm

    24. QWQuinlan Walther48:45

        It allows you to take the value off of just yourself and onto the people that you love and care about-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher48:51

        Mm-hmm

    26. QWQuinlan Walther48:51

        ... in a beautiful way that allows for your relationships to improve.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher48:54

        I like that. Do you have any advice for people who, let's say, they're, are still in the dating phase right now, and how to improve their communication, whether it's small talk... I'm, I'm wondering i- if you have any thoughts or go-tos on how to make sure that you, you keep conversation and communication interesting even when it can get kind of boring.

    28. QWQuinlan Walther49:19

        Ask more questions.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher49:21

        Mm-hmm.

    30. QWQuinlan Walther49:22

        Ask questions. Be curious. Listen and think, "Oh, they just went on a trip. Maybe I should ask what they did. Maybe I should ask where they went. Oh, they mentioned that they have a job. Ooh, tell me about the job."
14. 58:50 – 1:07:30

    Pursuer–withdrawer dynamics and the hard truth about disrespect

    1. JFJefferson Fisher58:50

       Do you, um... When, when people are coming to you with relation advi- relationship advice, what's, like, one of the number one things, some of the top things that you typically hear of problems that they're having?

    2. QWQuinlan Walther59:05

       Hmm. Well, the most common dynamic is the pursuer and the withdrawer.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher59:11

       Like avoidant anxious-

    4. QWQuinlan Walther59:11

       Which is-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher59:11

       ... kinda thing?

    6. QWQuinlan Walther59:13

       Um, y- yes, but no. It's, it's often this [laughs] it's often a dynamic of one person who is pursuing, pouring in energy, trying to read the books, find the therapists, start the conversations-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher59:26

       Yeah

    8. QWQuinlan Walther59:26

       ... be creative about how to create connection, get more of what they want, and the other person takes all of that effort and feels criticized or looked down upon or inadequate, and they'll withdraw.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher59:38

       Yes.

    10. QWQuinlan Walther59:38

        So from, from a client standpoint, I see both of that. I s- I, I hear from the pursuers and from the people who are withdrawing and shutting down.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher59:47

        That to me is... Oh, can we go there for a minute?

    12. QWQuinlan Walther59:49

        Please, yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher59:50

        So the reason I love that topic is because I hear from so many people go, "Hey, I'm reading all the books, and my s- my significant other cares nothing about it."

    14. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:00

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:01

        Um, and I'm the only one rowing the boat. [laughs] In fact, I'm only ho- having one of the oars, and so we're just going in a circle.

    16. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:11

        You know? And we're not really getting anywhere because I'm trying to do all this stuff. I'm listening to this podcast trying to fix my relationship, and the other person is, does not care. So there's the, the chaser-

    18. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:21

        Mm-hmm

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:22

        ... and somebody who's avoiding. Is... To me, the first step is, it also might be some of just your internal wiring.

    20. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:31

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:31

        Right? What, what do you tell, what do you tell them?

    22. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:36

        Well, it depends on who we're speaking to.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:38

        Let's speak to the person-

    24. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:39

        One of the-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:39

        ... who's the chaser

    26. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:39

        ... s- one of the questions is, how are you communicating the things that you want? Are you being kind and soft? Are you communicating effectively? Are you communicating in a way that the other person can actually hear you?

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:54

        Mm-hmm.

    28. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:54

        Or are you being quite harsh-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:56

        Mm-hmm

    30. QWQuinlan Walther1:00:56

        ... demanding, critical? Is all that they hear from you what they're doing wrong-
15. 1:07:30 – 1:20:48

    “Fixing yourself” reframed: loving the parts that protect you, and growing safely in relationship

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:30

       I wanna speak to... And of course, we could be talking about, you know, tips or phrases or whatever else on the communication side of that. I, I... What I wanna move, uh, into is more of what I understand your, some of your best-- where you tend to resonate the most is-- and what I, what I like about your content so much is that you say, "Hey, I'm going to focus on who I am more than what they need from me first," or, "I'm going to focus on deciding who I am before I'm trying to find somebody to complete me. I'm going to find out who I am before I figure out what this relationship requires of me." But there has to be this self-work first. So tell, tell me about what, what, what are these kinda things, I know I'm hovering around it, of... What comes to mind for you when we talk about this fixing yourself first?

    2. QWQuinlan Walther1:08:41

       Well, first, there's nothing to fix about you-

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:45

       Mm

    4. QWQuinlan Walther1:08:45

       ... or anyone else. There are only parts of yourself that need more love and support, more compassion. Even the most rigid, cruel, cold parts of ourselves are really parts of ourselves that need more understanding-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:01

       Mm-hmm

    6. QWQuinlan Walther1:09:01

       ... and more softness.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:02

       Mm-hmm.

    8. QWQuinlan Walther1:09:02

       So if you're thinking, "I need to fix myself before I get into a relationship," I wanna rewire that to: what are the parts of myself that I actually need to learn to love more? That's step one. Step two is having that framework of care for yourself, the relationship you build with yourself-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:22

       Mm-hmm

    10. QWQuinlan Walther1:09:22

        ... doesn't need to be perfectly crafted before you get into a relationship. Absolutely not. But being able to bring that practice into a relationship is really important. You can have a, you can have a perfectly calm, regulated life as a single person all by yourself, your family, your friends, this great life that you love, and then the minute you get into a relationship, you're, you're someone you don't recognize.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:45

        Mm-hmm.

    12. QWQuinlan Walther1:09:46

        And that's because when we're in relationship with, with other people, it triggers the parts of us that have been hurt in relationships previously. It shows us the parts of us that we wouldn't have been able to see unless we were in relationship with someone.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:58

        Mm-hmm.

    14. QWQuinlan Walther1:09:58

        And that's a beautiful opportunity to grow in relationship. So understand that there's nothing to fix about yourself. There's only parts of you that need more love and acceptance.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:08

        Mm-hmm.

    16. QWQuinlan Walther1:10:09

        Work on building the foundation of the relationship with yourself, and then be open to learning and growing in a relationship that is loving and safe.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:19

        That I, I absolutely agree with, of learning to grow in-

    18. QWQuinlan Walther1:10:24

        Mm-hmm

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:24

        ... the relationship because I feel like when you, when you are all in on a relationship, you're choosing to be replotted, like repotted to where you're having to, to [chuckles] really go into something else-

    20. QWQuinlan Walther1:10:37

        Yes

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:37

        ... entirely. So I hear the, the three-part framework, and I like it, where my brain goes, "There's some things that we gotta fix." Like, in other words, I hear you saying, "I fixed, love more," but there are people who might say, "This is not a good quality of mine-

    22. QWQuinlan Walther1:10:56

        Mm-hmm

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:10:57

        ... and I don't need to have this quality, and I'm not going to cure this quality by living it more." You get what I mean? Like, so is it-- or are you saying the problem that's being created is as a consequence or result of an area that's not being loved enough? S- Tell me more.

    24. QWQuinlan Walther1:11:15

        I'm saying it needs to be loved more.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:11:17

        Okay.

    26. QWQuinlan Walther1:11:17

        I'm saying ask yourself what that behavior is protecting you from.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:11:22

        Oh, I hear what you're saying.

    28. QWQuinlan Walther1:11:23

        What is it that you're trying to defend, protect, kee- keeping yourself from feeling? What are you trying to protect yourself from? Our bad habits always trace back to some kind of protective mechanism. We're coping with something that we can't feel.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:11:40

        Mm-hmm.

    30. QWQuinlan Walther1:11:41

        We don't have the capacity to feel it. So take a look at what that i-- I mean, and it's not a lo- it's a, it's a felt sensation. It's a lot of-

Episode duration: 1:20:49