The Jefferson Fisher PodcastStop Apologizing for Being Direct — Emma Grede
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 10,519 words- 0:00 – 4:34
Meeting Emma at SKIMS: intimidation, "Devil Wears Prada" energy, and first impressions
- JFJefferson Fisher
Before we get into it, quick note. I just launched a premium version of the podcast on Supercast. If you want ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs where I answer your questions directly, it's all there. If you'd like to support the show and get access to all of that, I want you to go to jefferson.supercast.com, or you can check the link in the description below to join. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today my guest is my friend Emma Grede. She is the Founding Partner of SKIMS, as well as the Co-founder and CEO of Good American, and has a roster of businesses and foundation boards and shows that she is a part of. This woman is incredible. Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma, and that is the first time I met her at her podcast, Aspire, which is in the SKIMS office there in LA. I was actually intimidated. Before I even met her, all of her team showed up, and let me tell you what, she has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing in business, and so this was my very first interaction with her, so we get to have fun with that. Also, she has a book coming out called Start With Yourself: A New Vision for Work and Life, which is out today. The link's down there in the show notes. We also took a deep dive on being direct, what does it mean, how to do it without apology and with confidence. We talk family, we talk career, we talk business, and we also talked about that other B word, balance, if there even is such a thing. I hope you enjoy. I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that a few months ago? Almost a year ago?
- EGEmma Grede
It was... What was it? It was-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... almost... You were literally like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Almost a year ago
- EGEmma Grede
... the first, one of the first interviews I ever did.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
And I was like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... "I cannot believe-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... I'm speaking to Jefferson." It's like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, you stumped
- EGEmma Grede
... day two. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You stumped.
- EGEmma Grede
No, it was true. It was true.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I, I get up there, and I, you know, I don't wear SKIMS. I don't wear d- I don't, you know, the jeans that, you know.
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, so I get up there, and this is, I think it was, it might have been at SKIMS, like one of the places, um... Obviously I need to up-date on, um, the brand names.
- EGEmma Grede
I was gonna say, clearly-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... clearly you need to-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes
- EGEmma Grede
... uh, well, you need to update your-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Clearly
- EGEmma Grede
... underwear closet. That's what I was thinking of.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah. I need to, I need to upgrade my shapewear.
- EGEmma Grede
Why don't you, well, no, why don't you wear SKIMS?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
I don't understand.
- 4:34 – 5:40
Why "Start With Yourself" isn’t selfish: control what you can control
- JFJefferson Fisher
Your book, all right, Start With Yourself. At first I thought, you know, I got it, and I said, "Okay, this is... Is this, is it almost wrong to have that mentality?" And I think it's that contrast, Emma, that made me go, "Okay, I'm gonna keep reading and understanding that no, it's, it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else, but you can control yourself." And when you say, "Before I blame this, before I blame that, before I start trying to fix everybody else, how about you start fixing yourself?" And so once-
- EGEmma Grede
Totally
- JFJefferson Fisher
... I had that type of perspective switch, I said, "Okay, this is, this is really great." And we're gonna keep talking about the book throughout the episode. But it's, you have just such a depth of experience that I don't think as many people ap- appreciate, uh, just the level of things that you have to... You get to, not have to, you get to manage and be responsible for, and balance,
- 5:40 – 8:49
Early business red flags: the problem with "What do you do?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
and, and juggles. And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do. The first question I wanna ask, Emma, is what you don't do. So what are some things that you find, you know, maybe in meeting with somebody, what, what, what do you think is in, in... Let's put it in the business context first. What's a red flag that you see That others might miss in business relationships
- EGEmma Grede
Oof. You know, first of all, I'm gonna ... First of all, I'm so happy to speak to you today, and I'm so happy that I get to speak to you in this, in this context around the book. Um, you know, I, there are so many red flags, but a big one for me is when it starts on, "What do you do?" [laughs] You know? I'm like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... "What?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
Like, hello. Who are you? How are you? Like, [laughs] what do you know?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
Um, to me, that's always a red flag. And, you know, I think that in business you can understand so much about a person from that initial introduction.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
Like, you know when someone sees you. You know when someone sees past you. And I'm a real people person. Like, I will not remember your name, but I will remember how your grandfather came into the country. But that's also-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... because I bothered to ask you that question. And so to me-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... I like to figure out, in business or otherwise, like, the essence of a person. Like, who are you? Like, how do you come-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- EGEmma Grede
... here in this room? And so when somebody starts, like, trying to figure out, like, what's in it for them, [laughs] you know?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
How can I help them, that's like a red flag to me. I'm like, "You're already out." [laughs] It's already over for me and you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, when it su-
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
When it starts really superficial. When it starts-
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... really superficial. I can see that.
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah, and I think that's something that the older you get, that changes, right? Like, I, I am, you know, I'm 40 ... I keep telling everyone I'm 42. I'm 43. My husband c- had to come and stop me the other day. He's like, "I've heard you say it three times today. You're 43." So I'm 43 now, and I think that part of even this journey of, that I've just been on writing this book for the last couple of years, like, you, you get close to yourself. You start to understand so much about who it is that you are. And so I'm just very interested in, in understanding other people and what makes them uniquely who they are.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And you said in, in your book, uh, and I've seen some other interviews, 'cause I listen to you too, Emma. It's not just, it's not just one way.
- EGEmma Grede
It's not one way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You, you s-
- EGEmma Grede
Thanks
- JFJefferson Fisher
... it's not just one way. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a two-way road. Of understanding also the value or at least not, not being afraid to try and mask the fact that some things are transactional.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm-hmm.
- 8:49 – 11:02
Transactional doesn’t mean fake: forthright ambition and moral clarity
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah, no, I, I don't wanna shy away from that because, as a woman in business, I think that often we're kind of trained to kind of, like, have this almost like performative politeness, soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something. I'm like, we're here to make money. Like, that's the purpose of business. Like, that's okay in that context. And so I don't like to ... I'm a very straightforward person with a very high moral baseline. You know exactly what I want because I told you, not because I'm trying to hide behind something and then, like, sneak it around the back. I think that that intentionality of being forthright, being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are, it actually takes all of the, all of the crap out of business. And so I wrote this book, you know, and by the way, I wanted people to use, not just to buy, uh, buy and, a- and to read. I was like, how do you create something that is useful? And, and it's about self-leadership. It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world. We can't control what other people are gonna do. But we can control the way we come into a space, the way we behave, the energy we put in, right? And so I think that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... that is really important, and that's important in business, and it's important in life more generally.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I get such a treasure, uh, talking to you. Now, this is the second time we've, we've had the chance to, uh, to meet, and of course we've communicated since. But what a treasure is for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such a roster of experience and a depth of success in running businesses.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And somebody who is a woman, and a woman of color, and to say, okay, I know that when somebody asks me, a white male, say, h- how do you s ... How do you say things direct?
- EGEmma Grede
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right? And I know my perspective is just one, and I will get comments, which are very well received, of that wouldn't work for me. That doesn't work in the, in ... I'm a woman. That's not gonna work for me. You don't understand what that's like. And the answer is I do not know what that's like.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm.
- 11:02 – 15:18
How Emma learned to be direct: East London roots, reputation, and behavior over words
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's correct. And so here I have, to me, an expert that I couldn't think o- who's any more positioned for this kind of advice. So in your world as a businesswoman, how do you speak with directness?
- EGEmma Grede
Just like a white guy. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] No. Let's not do that, please.
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs] Here's the thing. You know, it's really funny because I feel like, uh, this ... I mean, to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right? I'm married to a white man. Um, a lot of my investors are white men. And in so many ways, you know, early I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me. I think I'm a really straight shooter, and I think a lot of that was informed from where I was born. I was born in East London.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
Which is like the hood, you know? And so, um, this idea of having a high moral baseline, I didn't realize, I thought that was my personality. I didn't realize that came from where I was from, that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... you tell the truth. You, you know, you're true to your word. If you say you're gonna do something, that you do it. Um, and I carried all of those traits into business. And I think that so much of business is about how you behave and not what you say. It's like, how do you follow up? How do you leave people feeling? How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction? It's never about, like, one individual moment. And so I think that what I've built, uh, in my reputation over the years is the ability and the freedom to be really forthright because people know who I am. They know that I'm gonna come-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... good on my word. They know that I am, um, going to do exactly what I say, um, and that I'm not full of it. And so I really have kind of spent my career, um, not so much watching what I say, but watching what I do. Um, and that has really, really served me well. And what's so interesting, you know, now that I'm on this, this kind of book tour, um, you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me. [laughs] Three.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No way. [laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's awesome.
- EGEmma Grede
And thankfully, [laughs] thankfully, they're writing really nice things about me because, you know, it's, like, how you treat people and how you leave people feeling, like, that has the biggest impact in, uh, than any kind of single thing that you can say. And so I think that I am ... I don't know. I, I try to be very just who I am, and I make no apologies for it. And I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious. Um, and I have been-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... I think, working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men. Um, and I'd kind of-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes
- EGEmma Grede
... like to change that a little bit.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think you are. I, I definitely think you are.
- EGEmma Grede
It's like, "She's ambitious," in like a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
How ... Hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
That is such a quote. Have you ... Did you come up with that? That the, uh, "I don't watch what I say, I watch what I do"? Like, that is-
- EGEmma Grede
No, I didn't, but I'm taking it. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Did you just, did you just come up with that right now?
- EGEmma Grede
I, I just came up with that now. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Okay. Emma, that is, that is such a killer line.
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, you need your social team. All right, listen to me. I know they're listening right now.
- EGEmma Grede
I'm gonna tell them. I'm gonna-
- 15:18 – 17:57
Presence as a superpower: single-tasking, attention, and how leaders walk into rooms
- JFJefferson Fisher
So when you're saying, okay, if you walk into the office, you have a room full, you know it's crazy, your schedule's packed. You know, w- when you are about to enter into, okay, I have that breath of moment, I just got out of the car, I'm about to go into the, the room, where is your mind in that place? Is it ... How, how do you, how do you balance the, the performative of I have to-
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... look the part and, and balance the personal of embodying the part?
- EGEmma Grede
That is such a good question because all of us, we come with so much baggage, right? And when you're a mom of four, like, my mornings are so intense, you know? By, by 8:00 AM, I have trained, I've probably done one kid's hair, I've had half a breakfast, I've got, you know, like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... so much going on around me, and I get in the car, I'm on a call, and I walk in the office, and it's like, you know, the first, the first, like, meeting. I think the thing that I've-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... really learned to do is to bring myself, like, into any situation. Like, I'm not a multitasker. Like, I do the-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... thing that's in front of me, and I give it everything. Like, I am big on eye contact. If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like, it's over. [laughs] It's just over.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
I need, like, undivided attention. But in return, I give undivided attention. I'm a real, like, in-the-room person, and that is, by the way, a superpower in business because when you give undivided attention to matters, they get solved quickly. Like, I'm not gonna have 27 emails. Like, don't ... Like, everybody knows. Soon as an email's past two paragraphs, I'm like, "S- I'm dyslexic. I'm not reading that." So it's like I want the speed, I want the connection, and I want the-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... concentration of, like, the whole thing. But I'm really somebody who's very mindful. Like, I know I have a very commanding presence, and so I know that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone. Like, you know, everyone will tell you in your of- I walk in, and I'm like, "Morning, everyone." And I'm also-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... like, I'm a Chatty Cathy, so I'm like, "What did you do this weekend? How was your Easter Sunday? Like, did you do an egg hunt?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
Like, la, la, la. You know, it's like I do that because I am, I like to be with the people and connect with everyone and understand where are we, and then we can get into it. And then we can be, like, really all about the business. But I am, I think it's important to just have that level of presence and, and that is a, a gift when we live how we live right now.
- 17:57 – 20:19
Sponsor break: Cozy Earth
- JFJefferson Fisher
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- EGEmma Grede
You know, if I didn't have my wits about me [laughs] then that would be problematic.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
You needed to, you needed to be present.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- EGEmma Grede
You can't be away with the fairies there.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- EGEmma Grede
Um, that's for sure. I think that it's become more attuned since I had kids because kids don't need that much, but what they do need is, like, all of you. You know? You can't be like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... half having an email, half having a conversation. And because my time is really finite with them, you know, I don't take my phone out of my bag when I come home from work because that couple of hours, that dinner time, bedtime, story time, that needs to be, like, un-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... encumbered with whatever might be going on in my day, which is usually, like, a disaster. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
I only get the problems now.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
You know, my, my whole day is a series of problems. So I do really think that that is, it's a gift that you give yourself. It's a gift that you give the people around you, but it's probably, like, it's just so important, and it's an underrated thing to just be, like, single-minded and, and, and thoughtful and, like, in the moment. But it is, it is a superpower.
- 20:19 – 25:34
Building a communication culture: clarity, firmness, fairness, and repetition
- JFJefferson Fisher
If we could poll your team, 'cause I know you have a lot of people in-
- EGEmma Grede
A lot of them
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you know, the eye of your hurricane, uh, that is Emma. I- if, if we were to poll some of them-
- EGEmma Grede
How many are you polling? Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs] The immediate excitement.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's say, let's say your... Yeah. Let's say your top 20. Let's say your top 20.
- EGEmma Grede
Okay. Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know? What, what would they say in terms of communication-
- EGEmma Grede
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that you excel at, and some things that, yeah, you could do a little bit better?
- EGEmma Grede
I mean, they would say I am clear. Like, nobody is ever wondering, "What's Emma thinking?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- EGEmma Grede
'Cause I, I already told you. Like, we're not waiting for an assessment.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] I already told you.
- EGEmma Grede
No, it's like I already told you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
Like, the, a- and, and I think that that is really important. Like, I'm in constant communication.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- EGEmma Grede
And when you run businesses, having clarity about the goals, and I think that this has to go beyond the top 20, right? It's like I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and they all need to be going towards a common goal. And so when I express something, and when I have a set of priorities for any given business, I need everybody working towards those. And so having that clarity is really important.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- EGEmma Grede
So I think that people think I'm clear. They think I'm firm, right? I don't really suffer fools. But I think that they would say I'm fair. I think the majority of people would say, "Wow, she was extremely demanding, but I learned a lot, and she was really fair." Um-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- EGEmma Grede
... on the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because I repeat myself all the time, because that's about clarity of the vision, right? And I'm gonna double, double, treble down. So somebody comes to me, and they're, "I don't know what thing to work on," I'm like, "Wait a minute. We have the dirt and the dirt and the dirt." So drop everything else-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
... and do something that works to one of those three things. So I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater just in the sense of, like, I think it's really important for clarity.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I like that you said, "I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair." I find that that's a characteristic. You know, I, I come from a family of teachers. You know, my mom's a, a, a teacher. My sister's a teacher. And that was one thing my mom would always say. Like, she was known as kind of the, the scary teacher, uh, at school, but she, at the end of the year, all of her students would love her because she was... They realized it was for their good, it was for their benefit, that, that firmness, and I think you, you hit on something true is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over. Now, how do you, like you said, you don't suffer fools. Uh, what's that mindset that you have when you're walking into the, the rooms that you're walking into in business to know... Like, what's, what's the secret to being firm in communication?
- EGEmma Grede
I think the secret is, um, I would say that it is consistency, right? I don't think that you can be f- flip-floppy and firm like that. That's not gonna work. You have to be really super consistent. Um, an element of fairness, so I think that you c- you know, and, and I do think that the two things go hand in hand because people need to understand, where am I in all of this? Like, what bit is, uh, my responsibility? What part is, uh, what part, like... And when I say fairness, because, you know, again, like, so little in the world is fair, but when you have consistency, and when you're fair with people, you have... You know, I did every job, Jefferson. It's like I really was a person that worked their way up. I started in a cupboard in fashion PR. I packed the boxes. I packed the samples. I wrote the notes. Then I got onto a desk. Then, you know, you're kind of, like, running around back show at fashion shows and, like, laying flooring. I worked in production. It's like I did every single thing on the way up. Which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's part in a job or in a production or in a, a, right now, you know, it's like the clothing organizations. I understand the junior merchant's job because I was there. It's like I kn- I know that stuff. Um, and I think that when you are a firm person coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single person brings and delivers is a really good place because people feel seen. And oftentimes, um, the work isn't fair, right? It, it never feels that way. But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated, and there is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring, then I think that that changes everything. And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything, that I worked for it, and I appreciate them, and I have an understanding of them. Um, a- and, and in that way, I think people work extremely hard for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically.
- 25:34 – 30:12
Helping women be more direct: stop letting emotions make decisions
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm going to come back to this part that we talked about, um, specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm, having ambition as a, as a woman. Again, because these are things that I can't ex- you know, I can't express nearly as well as, as somebody else can. And so, you know, my question is, like, when you see all these, like you've been on Shark Tank. When, when you've seen all these men, okay, saying, "This is how to do business. This is how to do it." And you come in here going, "Yeah, I can do it just as well, and, and be able to spin five plates at the same time." You know? What, what do, what do you want to say to those men in the moment? What, what are they, what are we, you know, missing when it comes to ... Is there, like, an unlock to say this is a special way, or is ... Let me ask. I'm gonna ... I'm talking right now 'cause I, I, I, I find this subject, I, I desperately desire to be able to help people, and especially women, speak with more directness.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And there's sometimes I feel like I miss the point, and it's because I haven't been where they've been, and I haven't stood where they stood. And that-
- EGEmma Grede
Totally
- JFJefferson Fisher
... sometimes makes me feel helpless. And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them? What am I missing?
- EGEmma Grede
No. Well, I, first of all, I f- the, the idea that you even think about it like that I think is such an excellent starting point. And what I wrote about in the book, in Start With Yourself, is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision-making. And I think for-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... a lot of women, that is like a default, right? Uh, we are people pleasers. We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or, uh, or, or valued. We have a lot of guilt, right? Like, mom guilt is an actual real thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- EGEmma Grede
And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is how emotions will kind of dictate your decision-making. And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that oftentimes women have been socially conditioned to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth, that create visibility-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... that create leadership opportunities. And men don't have quite the same, um, kind of difficulties, uh, in expressing themselves or in managing their emotions, um, which doesn't impede their decision-making in the same way. And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff. This is supposed to be like a wake-up call for ambitious women because if you want power, and you want money, and you want a career, and you want a family, and you want all of those things, you're not gonna get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition. We have to have-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... audacity. We have to get okay with the fact that there's gonna be some discomfort, that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you. Um, and, and Jefferson, what is important right now and what I wanna be clear about, and men can agree with this as well as women, but I think that we are desperate for more women in positions of power right now, not just in business, but in our economies, in our governments, politically. Um, it's really clear to me, and I think there is just a set of rules that exist in the culture that mean that, um, women feel, and they, and they're deeply ingrained thoughts, right? Like, deeply ingrained thoughts that exist. And so what I wanted to do was be, um, you know, a model for what is possible because I really believe, like, you can't be what you don't see. And if we're constantly put in this kind of idea of, like, to be a good woman, there are all of these things that you have to do, that's really gonna hold women back. So, um, w- what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style of communication about the things that we really want has to change in order to, to kind of shift the mentality, like, really forward. Like, that's what I really care about right now.
- 30:12 – 31:43
Sponsor break: LMNT
- JFJefferson Fisher
Before we keep going, I wanna talk to you about LMNT. I know that in my busy lifestyle, there's something that has to do with hydration that I cannot seem sometimes to get a hold of, of just drinking enough water. My body will just go, "Coffee? You should have coffee." And my body also says, "But please give me water." [laughs] And so one solution Big solution that we've had in my family is LMNT, L-M-N-T. LMNT provides electrolytes. It's like this little packet. They come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water. I do about half so it's not too salty. I like the lemonade flavor, and I love it any time after a workout, during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go. I like it because it's just really no mess. Now, my kids, they love it. They call it salty water. They really like the seltzer version. I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are, and so they love it every time that they get it. In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert. So they will have dinner, and then my son will beg for salty water, and so we let him have probably about half of it because he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed, obviously. And so that's how we love LMNT. It is just made for people that are on a mission, just like you and just like me. And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order. You can head on over to drinkLMNT.com/jefferson and try it risk-free today. That's LMNT, smart hydration for people going places. And now, back to the episode. Now,
- 31:43 – 33:58
Rewriting internal scripts: ‘old thoughts vs new thoughts’ and owning your career
- JFJefferson Fisher
let me tell you, Emma, you did it, okay?
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
All that you wanted to do with this book, all right, you, you did it. I, what I really appreciate, um, that you do in your book, and I have it in my hands right now, is you have these old thoughts-
- EGEmma Grede
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and the new thoughts, which I thought was great. It is so good. Uh, not only do we get a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through, what you do with your, your husband and your kids, and the life and the balance and everything, is really how, how you see things and what you do, what I th- what I think is so well done, is you will lay out these old thoughts, and we all know what that is, these old scripts in our head of, "I'm not gonna be enough. I have to do this. I, the only way to achieve X is I have to go through Z and Y." And then you come up with these new thoughts, and you have these new thoughts right after it, after you kinda give the, the lesson. And the new thought is what turns the old script on its head, and you say, "I, you don't have to do that, and you know what? I'm a living example of that." And so many of your lessons when it comes to career, when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance, it, it is, uh, a series of new scripts and new thoughts that I think are, are excellent. Can I, can I share with you one of my favorite?
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah, tell me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, okay. So th- this is one of the ones you have in career, and this, this is one that hit me, is the old thought is you're owed mentorship and opportunity. And so I thought, like, "Okay, that's... Boy, that's true in my life of times where," at least in the legal profession.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know, you're, you're... It's a sense of you're owed certain things, and there's, that can feel that way. Like, people will go, "Oh, well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna chase this because nobody's doing it for me. I guess nobody wants to help me. It's just all me, and I'm not gonna waste the time." And in the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is you are the creator of your own career, and the responsibility for it is yours, too. And I thought, "Okay, Emma. All right, Emma."
- 33:58 – 40:30
Growing up fast: oldest of four, single mom, capability, and self-mentorship
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
"That was good." Like, it was so good of, like, hey, uh, you, nobody else is going to, to do that. And I think a lot of that, and I wanna go into this real quick, so is you are the oldest, I believe, of four.
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, and you had a single mother.
- EGEmma Grede
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay? And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have, y- the, the title of the book has to do with that girl who didn't finish high school, went to work, is, was the, uh, I'm the oldest of four, right?
- EGEmma Grede
You are.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That, that, yeah, I'm the oldest of four, yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
I love that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
This, this is why we're kindred souls, Emma.
- EGEmma Grede
This is it. This is it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Out of... That's right, these old souls, right? That you didn't really ha- like me, like, we-
- EGEmma Grede
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... uh, we didn't really have a, you didn't really have a childhood, you know?
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
There was gaps-
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... of your li- life that you had to be the, the little parent, the little spouse. You had to take on opportunity. You had to take on things. You had to forego other enjoyment, um, for the work that was ahead. And I find a lot of these principles that you teach, um, are, you know, lessons that are straight out of your, your life and how you do things now.
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah. I think that you're completely right about that, and, you know, it's so interesting 'cause so many people have asked me that question. "Oh, my God, what was it like?" You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid. Like, I never imagined, like, that this thing was put upon me because where I come from-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... like, you just helped your mom. Like, what are you gonna do? You know, it's like, yeah, I could make, you know, a, a, a, a dinner for six people when I was 12, but, like, that's been a really useful skill. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
I could clean the house. I could, you know, do a parent-teacher conference at 12 years old. You know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice, and so there's a maturity level that comes with that. There's a lot of, uh, you know, less, I guess, less forgiving and, and less, uh, uh, kind of great things that come out of that. But at the end of the day, it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace, which, again, was very young because I dropped out of high school, I had such a bar. Like, I knew how to get things done. I was such a self-starter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school. I had to wake everybody else up-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... and make pack lunches and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house. Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah. I wouldn't even bother. Um, but you know, for me, it was not an imposition. It was like I got a head start in life because this was my reality. And, um, when I got into the workplace, I was like, "Wow, I am so Capable. I'm so bloody capable. And so I think that when you take, you know, and I think about this with my own kids, you know, because I do have four, and nobody, they, they have everything done for them. Um, and, and somehow it kind of robs you from like, like who you're gonna be, you know? And I'm like trying to, or I'm not trying to manufacture hardships for my kids, but sometimes I think I should do. [laughs] You know? Like, they would be so much more capable. But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I did because there was, there was no one, uh, there was no one out there coming to get me. I took full responsibility for myself, and at the end of the day, this book is about self-leadership. It's about self-responsibility, and this really great stuff that is out there when you suddenly have that realization. Like, there was no guy coming to rescue me. There was no boss. There was no mentor. I learned from Oprah. I learned from people in the magazines. I learned from, like, the bosses at my work experience. And, and when I say learned, like, I would just copy those people. That's what I did. Like, Oprah would say something good, I would write it down, and I would copy it. For years I sat, um, with my boss, like, behind me so she could see my screen, and that was the early days of online shopping, and everyone in the office was like, "How annoying is it that you sit in front of this woman 'cause you can't do your online shopping?" And I was like, "It's amazing. I write down everything [laughs] this woman says."
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
"And when she has a good line, I use it on my new business calls." And it was like, you know, no one was coming to mentor me. And so to me, especially now that I get asked, like, "Could you mentor me?" And I do. I look up, like, so many of my staff and so many women, I do a call every day on the way to the office, 8:00. I get on the phone, I speak to somebody for half an hour. Um, but you can't wait for that stuff, right? You can't let it stop you. And what I wanted to make sure people understood is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head, you know? Like, I have this friend, and I quote her in the book, Diane von Furstenberg, and she says, "The most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself." Now, I know I can talk myself into or out of anything, and so when it comes to, like, looking for people to help me, I'm like, "Well, I better be helping myself first 'cause if one of these magical people ever does come to help me, I wanna be ready." And it just turns out-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... that that wasn't my experience, and so it's like I feel like I have gifted myself, myself my whole life, right? It's like I was-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- 40:30 – 43:26
Work vs. consumption: why success requires effort (and ‘ambition finds you working’)
- JFJefferson Fisher
... y- there's a sense of hunger, I think, that you have to have if you, if you really want it.
- EGEmma Grede
There's a sense of hunger. Listen, you, you might need to go out and kill an animal. Like, I don't know where you can't, like, where you're coming from.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
There might not be any shops open. There might not, you know, it's like you gotta do-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- EGEmma Grede
... what you gotta do. But, you know, there's something amazing about doing, like, making the best of yourself. You know? There's something incredible when you go, "God," like, "I came from here, and now this is what life looks like?" Like, that's incredible. But it just takes such a long time, and I feel like, you know, again, I, I speak about this so much in the book because I feel like social media has kinda conditioned us into this idea that, you know, you can listen your way to success, that, that somehow-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- EGEmma Grede
... you can consume your way to success. And I'm like, "No, you can't. You gotta work." [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
You don't have any choice.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
You know? You gotta, like, do something that you kinda don't like and get pretty good at it to be given an opportunity to do something that you like a little bit more, and then eventually something that you really love. But my experience is that it's always been that way. It's always been incremental. It's always been a little bit, and I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give. But there's never been a, a moment where someone's gone, like, "Here you go, lucky girl," you know, "Here's something that you didn't work for." Um, you gotta, you gotta put the work in. It's just that simple. Ambition has to find you working.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Before we keep going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Timeline. Now, when we talk about healthy aging, we typically like to think about diet, exercise, sleep, and those things matter. They really do. But how you feel as you get older also depends on something deeper. That's right, we're talking about your cellular energy. Every bit of energy your body has comes from your mitochondria. Remember that? The powerhouse of the cell? Well, it's, it's a real thing still. [laughs] The tiny power plants inside of your cells, and as we age, those don't work as efficiently, so more of them become damaged, your energy drops, recovery slows down, and you just don't feel as strong or resilient as you do. That's why I started taking Mitopure from Timeline. It supports something called mitophagy, which is your body's natural response and process for clearing out damaged mitochondria so your cells can produce energy more efficiently. So it's like saying this, "If you want more energy, your cells need more energy," and that's what Timeline does. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health, and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's all about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as, yeah, I get a little bit older, and keeping my hair as much as I possibly can right now. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure starts now at $79 when you go to timeline.com/jefferson. That's timeline.com/jefferson to learn more. And now back to the episode. Is there a thought that
- 43:26 – 47:18
Scarcity, fear of losing it all, and the drive to keep moving forward
- JFJefferson Fisher
has recurred in your own mind of whether it said you don't deserve this, it just right place, right time, you didn't do this on your own, you had all the help in the world? Like, it, these... I'm curious of what kind, what are the negative hardship thoughts that you, or if there are any. You know, what are the thoughts that you have to fight against? Because they're, they're always, they're always there.
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah. You know, [clears throat] I'm obsessed with comedy, and, um, I've watched, like, every Chris Rock special, like, back to front.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
I could recite them for you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
But one that he always talks about is, like, at some point he gets, like, this house, this, like, beautiful dream house, and he says his house is so good that he keeps a bag packed because he can't even imagine that, like, this would be his life, like, that this is, like, his, and he owns it, and I kind of, like, feel like that so much. [laughs] I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week, and Cardi, like, to me, I was like, "I'm... I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B." I was like, oh, that, that, that feeling of, like, never wanting to be poor again. Like, the first word she said to me, I was like, "We are the same. Me and Cardi B-"
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
"... we're the same person." Um, but that is something that I think for so long haunted me, this idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away or would be taken away, and I would be poor again, and, and not even, like, just poor, but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide, like, what I do, and so that is something that I feel like I... that it's always gonna be with me. I am always keeping the proverbial bag packed because I wake up in this beautiful room in Bel Air, and I'm like, "That can't, that can't be my life." Like, it just cannot. There's a little piece of that that I don't wanna get rid of. There's a piece of that that I am like, kinda keeps me hungry. It keeps me, like, thinking, like, "What's next? What's next? Don't rest on your laurels. Don't get lazy." There's also a piece of that that goes, "There's thousands of, hundreds of thousands of millions of kids like me, and so how could you be useful and actually take what it is that you've learned and you've done and make sure that other people that sort of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more?" 'Cause I know that I can pinpoint all the moments of, of lift that happened, and it wasn't always because I was outmaneuvering everyone. Like, some stuff just, like, you know, the stars aligned. Um, but I guess that that, the answer to your question is that that is always in the back of my mind, and it somewhat fuels me. I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow, but, um-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there. It's always there.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like a scarcity-type mindset. Like, you, you're always... You never know when it's gonna stop, so you gotta keep going.
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah, and there is a, there is... Listen, I talk about scarcity a lot in the book because I never envisaged-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- EGEmma Grede
... that because I have s- something more, that you're gonna get less, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
And I think that is a very female thing. Um, that's not how I think at all. I don't, I, I don't believe in that. I- but I do have that feeling for me. You know, I, when I met my husband, I said to him, "I don't go back in lifestyle. Like, this is where we are now. I'm only going one way. It's going forward, so you have to come with me or that, this is not gonna work."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- EGEmma Grede
Um, and thankfully, he was up for that challenge, [laughs] that, that romantic challenge that I gave him. Um, but that is, that is really important to me. Like, it's like I have been very purposeful about the life that I built, and I think it's my job to keep me moving forward, to always be in motion, and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done. I never, I will never feel like that.
- 47:18 – 49:35
Imposter syndrome is fake: confidence, failure tolerance, and a mother’s lesson
- JFJefferson Fisher
I know that in my own world, you know, I, I... We all do, and I know you talk about in your book about imposter syndrome and that sometimes people, especially women, can almost outtalk themselves out of an opportunity. D- is that something that you find often?
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah, I mean, I see it around me often. You know, I never had, and this is hard for people to understand, I never had imposter syndrome, and it s- was literally down to my mum. My mum is, like, such a fierce lady. You know, she is, like, five foot nothing. She's, like, white and blonde, and she has these, like, daughters that are, like, you know, Black with, like, big curly hair, and my mum was fierce. She was like, "You are gonna need to learn to look after yourself, and you have to know, Emma, that you're not better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you." And I swear to God, Jefferson, I grew up my whole life i- thinking exactly that. I was like, "Nobody's better than me." Like, literally, you could go to Eton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me, and I really imagined that. Like, I, I was like, I took it in, and so in my head, I thought, "If I work really hard, and if I throw everything that I've got at it, I can be as successful as anybody else," but that was my starting point. You know, my mum gave me that, and because I've done a lot of stuff, because I've had a lot of businesses that worked, but I've also had a lot of failures, which I talk about in the book, I got more confident. I g- I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it, to start a business, to fail, and for that not to be like, "There's something wrong with me." I was like, "That situation didn't work out. That was the wrong set of circumstances. I made this mistake," but I never internalized it and was like, "I'm not right for it." So I've always had this kind of, like, distance to what it is that I'm doing, and I never thought that anything was about me. I was just like That was, that was that, you know? Um, and, and I wanna impart that on as many women as I can because Imposter Syndrome is fake. It's not real. It's made up. It's in your mind. And so you have to create the conditions and change the way that you think about what is possible for you.
- 49:35 – 54:01
Radical beliefs: balance is a myth, seasons of life, and tuning out modern ‘noise’
- JFJefferson Fisher
Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people, even maybe lis- listening or reading your book, might think are, are radical? Are there things that you live by that other people go, "Whoa, this is something that is definitely against the, the grain, uh, of what we've been told"?
- EGEmma Grede
Yeah. Oh, God. Okay, this is gonna be the popular part for me in the podcast. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- EGEmma Grede
This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson. Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
I've got it. Okay. Well, um, I think that work/life balance is a myth, and we all know that I think that. Anyone who's been listening to me knows that. I think it's the wrong goal, right? Like, I, I have seen in my life, and because I believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons, there is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the metal, and to go for what it is that you want with no, you know, no fucks given. Like, no, like, you're just gonna go in. And there is a time when, you know, like, uh, right after you have a baby, for example, when you don't have a choice to do that. You have to, like, lean out a little bit, and you have to take care of your body and take care of the baby and ch- find a new pace for yourself. But I think that this idea that we've created in culture that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists, and until you've found it, nothing's gonna work out for you, like, that's BS. Like, you need, like, to have a great career and a great business, like, you need proximity. You need visibility. You can't, like, you don't get good over a Zoom call. Like, you need to be in the room. If you're not, like, around me, you're not gonna see how I move. You're not gonna understand, like, the pace of what we're trying to do, what the, like, company is all about. So I think that that is something in culture right now that we've just gotta, specifically for women, like, stop looking for balance. Look for the things that you want and go after that, and understand, like, the timing of your life. I also think the timing of your life is a really important one and something I think about. Like, this idea that, you know, women have been told just, like, wait and wait and wait to have a child. Like, there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right? I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're 39 years old probably isn't a good idea. So the idea that, you know, it's like you've gotta find this, that mystical partner that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems, I'm like, find someone that you love and have a baby, like, maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told. It won't be the end of your life. It's okay. Like, it's just, it's okay. And I think that what happened is that, like, people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas. Like, parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult, and that's why in this book I talk so much about having a vision for yourself, not vision boarding, not manifestation. Like, how is it that I wanna live? What is important to me? What are my principles and the stuff that I care about? 'Cause then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to, like, some chick that you saw on social that, like, cut her kids' sandwiches into stars. Like, that's not important. What's important is, like, what's important to you, and it's different for you than it is for me. And so what I like to do is set my own standards. I don't like to be impacted by all of the noise that is, like, coming in and around me. I like to say, "This is important to me, and these are my goals as a parent, and these are my goals as a wife, and these are my goals as a businesswoman, and I'm gonna go after that without apology." Like, that's what I think is important. And tune out all the noise because you know what's insane? Like, nobody's watching you. Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you, so you can pretty much, like, just do your thing and not be worried about it because people don't have time. They literally don't have time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Absolutely no notes. I can tell you.
- EGEmma Grede
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
I have no notes off that, Emma. Start With Yourself: A New Vision for Work and Life. Emma Grede, this is so, uh, so good. I, I am honored to be able to, to support it. I want everybody to read it, and, uh, I'll be sending, make sure that everybody in my community, uh, knows how important this book is. Emma, thank you so much for your time.
- EGEmma Grede
I love speaking to you. Oh, Jefferson-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, it's always the best
- EGEmma Grede
... thank you. You're, you're a diamond.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
This was so lovely.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- EGEmma Grede
Appreciate you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Please tell your family hi for me, and, uh, until the next podcast.
- EGEmma Grede
And they're saying to yours from me. Take care, my love.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Take care.
- EGEmma Grede
Thank you. Bye.
Episode duration: 54:01
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Transcript of episode sOLSs8xDIQg
