Stop Feeling Guilty for Your Boundaries

1. 0:00 – 1:43

   Boundaries: pushback means they’re working (and guilt is normal)

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      How to stop the cycle of overthinking and not feeling guilty for having boundaries, and also how to have the confidence to maintain those boundaries consistently. Thank you very much. Have a good day.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:11

      When somebody is upset with your boundary, it doesn't mean that that boundary is wrong. It means that it's working. And how do you make sure that you consistently keep up with that boundary is to know deep down that their disappointment will dissipate. The people who are disappointed by your boundary are most likely the very people who took advantage of you not having that boundary. That's typically what it is. Those are the people who are the most vocal about unhappy that you had that boundary, this isn't fair, because most of the time they were, they were used to cutting in line, right? They were used to you not having a, a bouncer at the door, so to speak. And so whenever you set that boundary and you set that consequence, how do you stick to it? Is I need you to be able to keep your eyes and ears on the goal, and that is whatever it was serving for you. Don't let somebody else's emotions or somebody else's disappointment replace the very real reason why your boundary is there in the first place. And know that that discomfort that you're feeling is confirmation. That discomfort does not mean that you've, you've made an error with that. That, that discomfort is confirmation that what you're putting into place is having the effect that it needs, and that is it is preserving you and

2. 1:43 – 2:45

   Stop overexplaining: drop “because,” use short sentences, and hold silence

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:43

      making sure that you're the one be-being taken care of. So don't lose, uh, don't lose sight of that. When it comes to overexplaining those boundaries, I need you to eliminate the word because. Instead of, "I need to put this boundary in place because blah, blah, blah," and give all this justification. They don't need that justification. I need you to get very firm. Instead of the ellipses, give them, meaning the dot dot dot, get, get more comfortable with periods and wait in silence. And if they have a response, then they have the, the agency to ask that question. But don't try and answer a question that they haven't asked. All right? That's just adding more words, and the more words you add to that sentence, the more you're gonna be watering down your message and the more watered down that boundary is going to be. So stick to small sentences. When you give that consequence, stick to it and know that that discomfort does not mean that something is wrong. It means that's exactly what your boundary is meant to do. If you want to stop

3. 2:45 – 4:23

   A paper-based framework to end overthinking about boundaries

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:45

      overthinking, I want you to get those thoughts out of your head, meaning on paper. And I want you to consider a framework like this, where you first write out the thought that you continue to go back to time and time again. What is the underlying thought that you are overthinking on? Number two, I want you to ask the question, what is the story that I'm telling myself about this thought? What is the underlying story there? Because there is. There is an underlying story that maybe is, I don't feel like I'm enough. I'm f-- I don't feel like I'm worth this boundary. I f-- I don't feel like, um, I, I will be alone. People will not like me, and if I'm not-- don't like me, then I, I maybe I am being too much. There is a hidden story underneath that, and what I need you to write afterwards is: What do I know to be true? What do you actually know to be true? This is where you take all those anxieties, and they wash away by the very cold, hard truths of what you actually know. Not what you assume, not what you fear, not what you're worried about, not that, that past story that you've had on your record player playing for your whole life, but actually what do you know to be true? And when you write that out and you see that and you put it not into just words, but into sentences and to things that say, "This is who I am and this is what I know about me," the more firm you're going to be and the less you will overthink.

4. 4:23 – 7:39

   Relapse, shame, and privacy: validating the caller and protecting her story

   1. SPSpeaker4:23

      Hi, Jefferson. I am recently unemployed and even more recently relapsed on alcohol after fourteen years in recovery. I was in a car accident the same night I relapsed and was arrested and now have pending DWI charges. I live in a very small town, and fairly soon this will become public knowledge. I'm trying to find a job while anticipating losing my license. My question is, there will be people who have questions like, "Why did you relapse? How did you relapse?" And I don't know how to tell people that it's not a conversation I want to have and that it's my own business and I prefer not to discuss it. I'm an empath, and so I often say too much, wear my heart on my sleeve, and I'm deeply impacted by insensitivities, so I need to be able to draw clear boundaries around this. And I love your work, I love what you do, and I trust that you probably have excellent advice. I hope that I've shared enough context. I did have fourteen years sober without a drink, and, um, losing my job and having trouble setting up unemployment was all just too much, and I didn't have the correct supports in place, and therefore the relapse and the accident and the arrest. So I am just trying to figure out how I'm gonna field questions that will come at me from the people who have very little tact. Thank you so much.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:05

      First off, I am so proud of you for calling because there are a lot of people who I imagine have gone through what you've gone through and have turned to even, um, m- more hurtful and harmful options. You're very brave, and I know you're probably at a place right now where you are really mad at yourself and you're at a loss and there's, and there's shame and there's hurt. And it's gonna be really easy, Lynn, for you to only look at this moment and allow that to cover the last fourteen years of sobriety that you've had. Don't, don't let this moment define what your story's been and what your story will be. So I want to tell you first that there are other people who are watching. And for those that are listening, if you feel right, I want you to just tell Lynn how proud you are of her, because she's doing something that is... most people would not have the strength to do,

5. 7:39 – 11:13

   How to answer intrusive questions: ownership + redirecting from “why” to “where”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:39

      and that is taking control back of, of her life. Um, so that's, that's not something small. That's not s- that's not something small. That's, that's you being human, Lynn. The second question that you asked, which is, let's say more on the practical communication side, how do you handle it when somebody's asking you questions, you go, "Hey, this is, this is my business." Lynn, I don't want you to shy away from or feel like as soon as somebody asks about why or how, don't lead with an excuse. Even when excuses are sometimes true, they tend not to come out that well. So what I want you to do instead is to simply say, "All I know is it happened and I'm learning to grow from it." I want you to focus far more on recovery than looking back and asking why. I would prefer, and I think those around you would also prefer, of this sense of one owning. I know you don't wanna... I'm not saying that when somebody asks why that they're entitled to hear it. I'm not saying that. I'm, I'm, I wanna give that, I wanna address that here in a second. First, I want you to understand there's a, there's a sense of ownership that you have to take first. And it sounds like those are the, the steps that you're already on. Is h- how do I own? Yes. Yep, I... That happened. Yes, I relapsed. Yes, and I'm, I'm working to improve it. I'm working to learn. I'm, I'm working on myself. I'm going back to the steps. Whatever it is, it's, it's a, it's a matter of ownership. And if you, if you've been through any type of recovery program or AA, you know that's certainly part of it, to say, uh, no doubt that unemployment, of course, would be an extremely triggering event that is going, that could lead to that increase of unmanageability, to where you felt powerless in that moment and turn to what your brain told you was addiction. And I can only imagine that you feel really defeated, and what I want you to do is hear from us that are also listening to you to say that you're on the right path. And Lynn, when somebody's asking you that question why, understand you don't have to answer that. You, you can answer the question you wanna ask. For example, if someone were to say, "Why did this happen?" I want you to say, "You know what? I'm not asking why anymore. I'm, I'm asking where. Where, where am I going? Where is this taking me? W- where can I go to learn from, from what's happening?" Of where, where you're going next to, to better places, to more improvement and positive things that are happening in your life. And you kind of get to... You can, you can redefine that question. Say, "You know what? I'm not really asking why. I'm, I'm asking where. Where, where is my life taking me right now?" And maybe it's, "I'm learning to have grace for myself." Maybe it's, "I'm

6. 11:13 – 12:44

   Assertive boundary lines and choosing the right people around you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

      learning to take care of myself even more." And I think there's... I think it's okay to even simply say, "I don't know where yet, but I know it's, it's somewhere that's gonna make my life better." If you want to handle it when somebody's asking you a question and you say, "I don't wanna... This is, this is not for others," it's okay for you to say, "That's not a question I'm answering." Don't be in the position of going, "Well, I mean, I don't really, you know, I don't really share that kind of thing." I want you to take very assertive statements of, "I don't talk about that. That's not something I share. That's not something I, I divulge. That's personal information. This, this is, this is work on myself." And which is the truth. Those people aren't entitled to private information about you. And really, and really, Lynn, the people who care about you the most are the ones who are gonna be most invested in wanting to see the best for you. The ones that are going, "What happened? What do you mean?" And, uh, they wanna look at all the, the closet of things, those aren't people who are looking for your best interests. Those are people that are looking for either gossip or ways to feel better about themselves. I want you to instead be around the people who are going to encourage

7. 12:44 – 14:16

   Sponsor break: LMNT hydration

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:44

      you, to uplift you, and just sit with you e- even when there's nothing to say. So from me to you, you just keep doing it. This episode is brought to you by LMNT. I am part of a family that is on the go at all times. And so what does that mean? You need to stay hydrated. You need to make sure that what you're putting in your body is good stuff, because there's a lot of bad stuff with a lot of sugar and everything else. When it comes to electrolytes, LMNT, for our family, is where it's at. My kids love it. They have it in not only just little packets that you can rip and put it into a water bottle. That's what I like to do, because I don't really like carbonation. My family, my kids, love carbonation. They love, like, the seltzer type waters. They call it salty drink, is what they call it. Why? Because LMNT is salty, but it's stuff that doesn't have any sugar, no fillers, no additives, anything like that. Just good, straight clean hydration. My favorite flavor is they have this Arnold Palmer kind of flavor where they have tea and lemonade all in one. It's hits the spot for me every single time. LMNT was made for people on a mission, not just athletes, but also parents and people in business, and people who are working all the time, and they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order, which is pretty awesome. So head on over to drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try it risk-free. And if you don't love it, they will refund you, no questions asked. LMNT, LMNT, smart hydration for people going places. And now let's keep going.

8. 14:16 – 15:36

   Escaping repeated marital arguments: find the heart beneath the loop

   1. SPSpeaker14:16

      I am in this situation where, uh, it's with my spouse.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher14:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPSpeaker14:21

      We seem to continue to repeat the same argument over and over and over. And yeah, I'm seeing the pattern, and I point out that this is happening again. And it seems like we just can't, not seem to stop and get in a different direction. And I don't know how to redirect the conversation to go to, um, a better, a different result. So, um, could just use some advice on how to stop having the same conversation/argument every time. All right. Thanks so much. Love your book. Gonna give the workbook too. What you're doing is awesome, man. So thanks so much. All right, bye.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher15:06

      If you haven't heard the end of it, then you haven't heard the heart of it. You will continue to have the same conversation time and time again on this merry-go-round, because if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard the heart of it. There's always something deeper every single time. And, and it sounds like you've already caught that, that pattern, that, hey, I'm noticing a lot that this is coming up a lot. So let's put it, when I'm talking now for the rest of my response to you, and I think it's an excellent

9. 15:36 – 18:08

   A structured “process talk”: agreements, timeouts, and curiosity questions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:36

      question, and the fact that you're asking this is a sign that you're wanting to improve your marriage, which is awesome. What needs to happen? How do you get out of this pattern? One, there needs to be a get out of the pattern conversation, meaning with your husband, there needs to be a separate conversation, not in which you are in the moment arguing about it. No. You need to now be talking about the process of how y'all have been arguing about this. So instead of the content, I need you to go higher, right, and start looking as if you are talking about the process of going, how does this happen? Not a you're wrong, you're right, you're wrong, you're right. None of that. It's how-- what is the process which we are taking and receiving information, and really it's what are the filters we are applying? Because what I'm hearing is when you're having this kind of pattern, there is a filter that's being applied, a lens that's being applied that is keeping you two from missing each other every time. And I know that feels hopeless. Um, I know that feels maddening at times when you feel like each of you are just, you're missing it every time. So I need you to have a separate conversation. In this conversation, there needs to be an agreement that neither one of us are gonna be mad at each other. Both of us are in this because we wanna figure this out and improve our communication and improve our relationship. And three, we will be patient, and we will do our best not to get defensive. And if we are getting defensive, we will take a timeout and come back to this when we are ready. Cool? So you have to set that framework for that conversation. Second of all, I need you to have these statements of maybe it's as simple as when you, I feel. When you do-- when you say this, I feel as though you are really trying to say X, Y, and Z, right? And then he gets to try. Okay, so when you say that, I feel like X, Y, and Z. And start talking about what are the words and things that are really, uh, triggering or, or the words that are kind of these, uh, I might say PAL statements. These, these, these, these are the statements that make you really get heated and defensive. Say that. What is-- what am I missing? Asking questions like, "Okay, what am I missing when you say that?" So when this happens, what is your brain telling you? What's the process of h- how-- what's the story behind that? So what's a very practical way of doing this? I want you to, whenever he says something or you say something,

10. 18:08 – 19:49

    The ‘because that makes me feel…’ drill: tracing reactions to root causes

    1. JFJefferson Fisher18:08

       and I think what's best is, let's say, for example, he goes first, or you go first. Let's say he go-- uh, you go first. He would be asking the question of You'd say something and go, "Because that makes you feel..." And you go, "Because that makes me feel X, Y, and Z." And then he'd ask again, "Because that makes you feel..." "Well, because that makes me feel X, Y, and Z." And what you'll find, as you know, it's not about the milk, okay? It could be about that thing that reminds you of that thing when you were 11, and that makes your nervous system feel the exact same way. Or it, it's, it's always, you know, because that makes me feel that it reminds me of my, my stepdad who did this, or reminds me of my mom who did this, and I'm, I'm now feeling it now, or it makes me feel less, or it makes me feel afraid. It's sifting through, and you'll have to be able to talk about this in a way that is not taking anything personally to the actual content of the conversation. But instead, I need you to focus on the mechanics, and the way to do that is the because I feel, because that makes me feel, because that makes me think. You're talking about the lenses. You're talking about the filters. You're talking about the how do we get to this point in time. So get really curious with each other of what is it that I'm missing, and what is it about this particular conversation that takes us from here to down there? And the more open you are to that conversation and the more questions you ask without getting defensive, meaning you're gon- nobody's gonna say, "Yeah, but..." None of that. It's, "Okay, that makes sense. I hear you. Keep talking. Keep telling me more." That's the way to get out of, off the merry-go-round and out of that pattern.

11. 19:49 – 24:38

    Backhanded compliments: interpret generously, then clarify with a playful check

    1. SPSpeaker19:49

       Hey there, Jefferson. It's Peggy Pepper. Peggy Pepper like salt and pepper. I have spent my entire life working out, doing triathlons to stay in really, really great shape. And now, at seventy-five, I'm happy to say I'm super healthy and really do look younger than my years.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher20:13

       [laughs]

    3. SPSpeaker20:14

       The only problem I have on a regular basis is a backhanded compliment that I get from people, which I take as a compliment, but it's still really annoying when people say, "Wow, you look really good for your age." It, it sort of takes the compliment away. So my question is, when people give you backhanded compliments, what's a really nice way to answer them back other than just a thank you? How do you train people to compliment directly and say what they mean? I'm at... And I am absolutely a fan of yours.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher21:03

       [laughs]

    5. SPSpeaker21:03

       This is Peggy Pepper signing off, hoping that I handle people who are trying to be nice to me but aren't, handle them a lot better. Thanks so much. Bye.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher21:13

       [laughs] That was great. Ms. Peggy Pepper. [laughs] Oh my goodness. Well, first off, Ms. Pepper, like salt and pepper, that's amazing, all right? I can say, uh, that is not something that you find that often if somebody goes, "You know what? I've been taking a very, a, a lot of good care of my body and, uh, my exercise, and it matters a whole lot to me." You go, "How do I deal with this backhanded compliment?" Now, the example you gave me, though, Ms. Peggy Pepper, is somebody saying, "You look really good for your age." And what the part that you don't like, right, is the for your age. That's where you go, "Huh, I don't know about that." There's some ways I want you to think about that. One is if you were to just say thank you and consider and decide for yourself that they meant it in a positive way. Like, what would it, what would it look like if that was generally-- Take a very generous interpretation of it. So one is this. I need you to have very generous interpretations and rather than take it personally, give them the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to say you look good. And though the for your age bothers you, and that's fair, I also want you to know that there's the possibility, Ms. Pepper, that they didn't mean it as a backhanded compliment. So it's very possible that we don't get to decide that for them. So how do we do that? How do we know if somebody's really asking a backhanded compliment? Because sometimes we can just be taking it personally. Number two, when you feel like somebody is giving you a backhanded compliment, I think what I would prefer you to do is ask a question and just say, "Do you mean I just look good?" [laughs] In other words, you are cutting out the for your age part, and you can do it playfully. That's the, that's the key. Instead of you getting all serious or getting huffy or upset and, you know, uh, getting more peppery on them, I want you to even playfully say, "You mean I look good? I look good?" Instead of the for your age or, or take that offensively in some way. So using the-- When I typically go, "How do you handle a backhanded compliment?" It's the, "Did you mean..." So maybe somebody's saying ugly. Maybe they are in some way. You feel like they're making a backhanded compliment. You can say, "Did, did you mean for that to sound like a backhanded compliment? Did you, did you mean to make a, uh, a negative comment about my age? Did you mean to make that about my age?" You know, that checks them. Usually brings out a lot of that if somebody's truly meaning it. But it sounds to me like deep down, they're just wanting to say, "Man, you look really good." And I think that's something to be really, really, um, happy and certainly proud of. And if you ever have the question- I would-- Or if you ever have a question of whether or not it's a backhanded compliment, I, I would encourage you just to friendly ask, "You mean I look good?" [laughs] Or, "You mean I just look good?" And I think you'll get the answer you're looking for every time.

12. 24:38 – 28:02

    Handling nonstop complainers: let it out, then nudge toward solutions

    1. SPSpeaker24:38

       Hello, Jefferson. My name is Mara. I want to know how to respond to someone who is, uh, complaining nonstop. For example, at the breakfast table or at dinner table with, uh, other people. How to respond?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher24:59

       When somebody is complaining, uh, outside of just the normal bounds of, you know, complaining, 'cause sometimes complaining is, is absolutely justified and necessary and also part of communication. Uh, particularly, you said in the mornings, because sometimes I don't wanna be awake, so I'd rather complain of I wanna go back in bed. How do you deal with somebody who is complaining or complaining a, a lot? Number one is let them get it out. If they don't get it all out, they will bottle it up and start assuming responses for you, and those responses will not be positive. Those responses will be negative, and what it will do is only give them more things for them to think and what complain about. So, how do we do this in a way that is you just not sitting there for twenty minutes while somebody's simply complaining? I want you to be able to insert questions into it that's going to, number two, kind of navigate where we can place this information. So, when somebody's complaining, what, what, what can we ask or say? I want you to prompt questions that are gonna get them more to solutions, to conclusions, to resolutions of things. To say if somebody's complaining, you might say, "Okay, well, what do you think you should do about it?" "Well, what's your next step?" "Well, what's the, what's the takeaway?" "How do you-- what solution do you have so far?" Like, I, I want you to encourage with your words action steps, because complaining for a lot of people feels like they're in action when they're not. They're just sitting still and wishing they were moving in a certain direction, and they just need a little bit of a verbal nudge to get them thinking into that area of, "Okay, well, what do you, what do you plan to do about it? What would you like to do about it?" Because we all know what it's like when somebody complains and complains, and you go, "Okay, so what are we gonna do about it?" Because it's, it's not gonna help complain. But I want you to understand that sometimes complaining is it's releasing that anxiety for that person. It's not helpful if you just immediately go to, "Let's just talk action steps. Don't even-- Don't tell me about your worries and fears," because then those worries and fears are still gonna be there, and they're gonna feel like you don't really care about that. You just want the conversation to be over. So to avoid that, let's let them get it out for a little bit. I want you to hear some of that stuff, maybe affirm it, maybe, uh, mirror it to get them to talk about it a little bit more, then nudge them to a path that is going to land a lot more specifically. Those are phrases like, "What solution do you have so far?" "What do you feel is the next step?" Um, "Do you find that there is, um, a decision that is gonna need to be made?" So using their information and try to nudge them in a path that's gonna ultimately lead to not only decision, but also action-taking. You can do that by saying, "What's--

13. 28:02 – 29:27

    Sponsor break: Zocdoc doctor-finding and appointment scheduling

    1. JFJefferson Fisher28:02

       So what's the first step?" That's gonna help get their mind from switching to hopeless to what is happening next. That's a much better path forward. Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Zocdoc. Can I be honest with you for a moment? One of the worst things about adulting is making doctor's appointments. It's the worst. You, you try to find a doctor, a healthcare provider who you want to feel really safe and secure with, that you're making a good decision for either you or your family. And then what? You call, and then sometimes they have an answering service, and maybe you get them, maybe they don't answer, and sometimes you gotta call multiple times just to get an appointment. Well, Zocdoc takes all of that pain away. Online, easy to search, easy to filter through. You can find doctors in your area, no matter what kind of field. So I'm talking dermatologist to dentist to you name it. They're able to find them, be able to see their reviews, make sure that they are in coverage for you, which is huge. And also, you can schedule appointments right there, and it's pretty fast. Anywhere from twenty-four to seventy-two hours. That's-- I mean, what else could you want? You and your health matters, and taking care of yourself should not be complicated. Zocdoc fixes that. So head on over to zocdoc.com/jefferson. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C .com/jefferson and get started on your first appointment. That's right, the appointment you've been putting off forever today. And now, let's keep going.

14. 29:27 – 31:52

    Is it worth having the hard conversation? regret, cost, and unilateral repair

    1. SPSpeaker29:27

       How do you know when it's worth having the conversation? My mother and I fell apart about ten years ago, and she's been awful to me since then. I don't want her to die and feel regret in my heart.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher29:39

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker29:39

       But I don't think we can get anywhere. Thank you.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher29:45

       [inhales] [exhales] That's a big question, and thank you for sharing that with me. How do you know if the conversation's worth it? Depends on the conversation. There are some that, as a general rule, I like to think that if I'm thinking about something I wanna say or should have said the next day, even if I've, I've gone to sleep and wake up and I still feel like this is something that I'm holding onto, that I can't let it go, that's a sign that something else needs to happen. You, you know you should have said it, but it didn't happen. And usually what I have found to be absolutely true, that the longer you hold onto it, the longer you go, "Ah, it's gonna feel better today if I don't tell them. It's gonna be better today if I don't bring it up." And it just, the heavier that weight is going to be for you to carry. So that's a general rule of usually if, if you're still holding on to that thought over the next one to two days, it's something that you're gonna need to bring up because at that part, it's not-- at, at that point in time, it's not just in your head, it's in your heart, and that's, that's a whole lot heavier for you to carry and struggle with. What I also hear you saying, and I wanna bring up the point of unilateral repair, meaning if there's somebody, like you said, who's in some type of estrangement situation, and you know that, you know, is the conversation worth it. And you don't, you don't want her to leave this world and you feel like you left something unsaid. Well, I need you to be really honest with what's the cost to you of... Is the cost of saying it worth more than the cost of n- of not in your life? And if that's true, then you need to be at a place where you go, "Mom, maybe..." And I can give you a framework for this conversation,

15. 31:52 – 36:05

    Scripts for estrangement: ‘I know / I’m not / I’m ready’ and ‘I need / I don’t’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher31:52

       but the goal here is you're saying, "Mom, I, I need to say this for me, and I don't know. We're not guaranteed tomorrow, and I am not gonna be okay, is not gonna be, be settled in my, my heart or my spirit if I do not share this with you. Even if you don't-- even if you have no response to this, I need to say this for me." That's a unilateral repair where it, it does not take two people. It is you saying, "I need to get this off of my heart to you." And that, and that is not something to take lightly. If I was gonna give you some type of model of how to talk about this in a way with your mom or maybe some kind of frame, I would begin with number one, I know. "Mom, I know that we haven't-- there's been a lot of distance between us. I know that we haven't spoken in years. I know this is... our relationship is not where we wish it would have gone." Number two, I need you to be with-- begin with I'm not. In other words, "I'm not trying to push anything on you. I'm not trying to bring up and hurt old wounds." Right? 'Cause that's their fear. You're touching on their fear right there. Three is, you know, "I'm, I'm ready to listen when you are." 'Cause typically, when somebody says, "I'm ready to talk," nobody wants to hear that. They, they'd much rather hear, "I'm ready to listen to you." Um, but between that, that, uh, I'm not and I'm ready, I think you can put in that, that insert the, I need to share this. I'm not here to bring up old wounds. I'm here to say something that I know is on my heart, and I need to share this with you because I need to say it and I will not be okay. It's not gonna be okay in my spirit if, if I don't share this with you. And should you have something to say, I'm gonna be here to listen. That's how you know if a conversation is worth the cost. And the truth is there are most likely a lot of people out there who know they need to say something to someone who could be dying sooner than later, and they are afraid to say something or not say something because that person will no longer be here. My thoughts are you need to say it because most likely you will be living a whole lot longer wishing and wondering what that conversation could have led to, at least giving peace, reconciliation, love a, a chance in that moment, rather than n- not taking the opportunity and living with the regret of not even using words, just words to try in that moment. So how could you approach that conversation? I want you to begin with, I need. I need to have an important conversation with you. I need to have something that's really been on my heart for a long time, and I need to say this. Two, I don't. I don't need you to agree with me. I'm not asking you to respond in any way. I am, I am not asking you to even receive this. I need to say something. This is three. I need to say something that if I don't say, I will regret it forever. And hear me. It can't be something that is like n-- it, it can't be something negative, right? [chuckles] It has to be something that's true from the heart. It can't be, I've been-- [chuckles] I need to say you're a terrible human. [laughs] It can't be that. It needs, it needs to be that moment that you know is that unspoken-ness between you and the other person, and speaking directly from the heart. And I think you'll be surprised at what even giving hope a chance will do for that relationship.

16. 36:05 – 42:36

    Being taken seriously in male-dominated spaces: identity cues and the word ‘serious’

    1. SPSpeaker36:05

       My name is Sarah, and I'm from London. Um, Jefferson, I have trouble being heard by men either.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher36:13

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SPSpeaker36:13

       They don't take me seriously. This, uh, is a recent phenomena that's ha- occurred, um, and it's, yeah, it, it, it come-- it stems from me, uh, getting in a habit of overexplaining myself, which I'm probably doing now. How do I curb this? I'm trying to break into a football sector, which is a male-dominated industry. I've actually broken into it, and I've been very lucky. I've spoken to people that are quite high level in the sector. Um, one gave me an endorsement with, you know, saying that I've got a great idea. However, I keep hitting walls, and I think some of the walls are actually within me. Um, this feeling that somehow business isn't what it once was, and now everyone wants you to take sides, and what do you do when you're not taking sides? So how do you overcome people-- How do you overcome men not taking you seriously, specifically? Either go flipping from like a pendulum from either thinking you're cute or actually then thinking-- just dismissing everything you say. Like I'm speaking, and they're not actually registering what I'm saying. Uh, how do you make your ideas presentable in a manner that men, specifically men in a male-dominated industry, things better, and how I can maybe get out of this mindset due to a traumatic event that occurred, um, within my work that, that somehow, um, you know, it felt like men wanted to cut me down, um, and to put me in my place as it were. And thank God they didn't manage to do that, but it has left me shaken, quite literally. So how do I get overcome all of those internal things in your-- from your perspective? Like, what would you advise? And how can a woman specifically articulate herself in a manner that isn't a man, uh, perceiving you as arrogant or cute and, and then dismissing everything you say? Thank you, Jefferson. I hope that makes sense. Um, please forgive me. It is quite late here in London, but I just had to leave that message. Okay. Take care and keep up the great work. Bye.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher38:20

       That is, uh, a question and really an underlying message that I don't think is going to go away easily, certainly anytime soon. What-- How, how do you deal as a woman, how do you deal with somebody in a male-dominated industry? [chuckles] One, I am very aware of what I am, and that is a male, and that means I can't speak from experience. I'm not gonna pretend to even think that I could possibly know what it's like to be in that position. What I can tell you is I'm absolutely going to affirm that what you're feeling is real. There is a discrepancy. There is a way of which certainly men can look down on you simply because of, of gender. I wanna say first, big compliments to you. Uh, sounds like you're breaking, use the word walls, and that you're breaking through them and you're breaking through ceilings. To be in a heavily male-dominated industry, especially with, uh, football, which I would-- that would make all the sense in the world to me. So h-how do you, how do you be taken more seriously if, as a woman, you are needing to, uh, speak to men? Sarah, here's what I would say. If I could give it in a, in a-- If I could package this in a how, how quickly can I deliver that to you is, is one, I want you to understand that what you're doing is something different than most people. In other words, you are choosing to be in a more male-dominated industry, and I want you to, rather than feeling like there is, "How am I ever gonna climb up this hill?" I want you to turn that into a way of h-how can you shift your, your mindset into being how much more you get to prove, how much more you get to be either excited or h-what a opportunity there is to be somebody who can pave, pave a path and to be able to trailblaze something that would allow more women to join and follow your footsteps. So I want you to understand there are other women, more than you know, that are watching you and saying, "If she can do it, then I can do it," and that's how change is made. Number two, I want you to-- If somebody is not taking you seriously, I want you to start using the word seriously or serious more often. I want you to find a way to use it e-either in text or in the way you have in conversations or even in the ways you ask questions. For example, don't be afraid to say, "What would it look like for you to take me seriously right now?" Or, "I have a serious question," or, "I'd like to talk to you about something serious." There might be that tendency to wanna, you know what it's like to try and over people please and to be really bubbly or really overly warm and overly, overly nice. That can put you over into a particular area of going, this is not somebody who, who takes a lot of things seriously. So I want you to use that word. Why? Because it's going to signal, give the signal and sign to everybody else that this is somebody who takes themselves seriously. Number three, what I want you to consider is every time you go into a meeting or have a conversation, I want you to even say to them, right, "I'm somebody who takes a lot of things. I-- This-- I'm somebody who takes this seriously. This is a serious conversation to me." You see, I'm, I'm, I'm incorporating that word. What I'm telling you now is put that in the beginning of sentences of when you meet somebody, um, to-- that you take this job seriously and find a way to use that to your advantage because then you're-- we're trying to create and build your identity around somebody who goes, you know what? She's somebody who takes this job very seriously. So even if you go, I don't feel like that really resonates with me, you can. Like, I'm not somebody who's a serious person, but I'm somebody who takes this job very seriously, and I'm not gonna take this job or this position for granted because this is-- I have earned this spot. You've earned that spot, and that's something to absolutely be serious about.

17. 42:36 – 48:39

    How to be a good man (and not a pushover): respect, ownership, and convictions

    1. SPSpeaker42:36

       Hey, Jefferson. My name is Austin. I am a 17-year-old who-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher42:39

       Hmm

    3. SPSpeaker42:39

       ... is looking for all the wisdom he can find. With that being said, here's my question: I don't wanna be a pushover. I don't want to be so- a man who lacks confidence. How can I improve this in my communication? Whether I'm talking to a manager or a friend or a narcissist that I come across, I want to be a good man and not a pushover. Thank you.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher43:03

       Austin. Man, I'm proud of you. What a great question. At 17, I wish I was asking that question to people when I was 17. So how, how do you be a, a good man? Oh, man. When you talk... What I heard you say was to the managers, to friends, to coworkers, to other people. I'm still working on how to be a good man, Austin. So I'll, I'll let you know [chuckles] if I ever become one. All right? Here's what I, here's what I know to be true, is you can't just be interested in the somebodies. I want you to treat everybody like they're a somebody. So that means I want you to be interested in everybody's name from the janitor to the runner to the assistant to the waiter to the waitress. Be far more interested in knowing and showing them respect than treating those people as something different than those who wear suits. So don't, don't just be interested in the somebodies. Treat everybody at all levels with respect, and I, I can assure you that level of respect is gonna go a whole lot farther than you know. Number two, I want you to model the apology. When you mess up, own it. Don't give an excuse. Don't deflect. Don't blame. A good man is somebody who owns fully their mistakes in the face, not running, not trying to hide from them. It's somebody who's true, and when they mess up, because you will, is somebody who goes, "Yep. I messed up." That to me is wisdom. And three, what I would encourage you is find ways to push back voicing insecurity and letting that be a, a voice in your head because it's gonna be very tempting, especially early on, of trying to say things to prove yourself. In other words, how many friends you have, what kind of car you drive, what kind of clothes you wear. Um, the people who name-drop or feel like they need to talk about the accolades or how cool they are, those aren't the people that are confident, Austin. Those are the people who are insecure. It is knowing that you have a big stick and you don't use it because you know that you're confident with yourself and confident of knowing who you are and you're not trying to be anything else and staying true to that and knowing what your values are. Write them out. It sounds like probably you already have. When you stay true to that and stay aligned with it, I think you're at least on the path like me, like many of us are, to be a good man. And Austin, when it comes to not being a pushover, I want you to know that as somebody who's 17 and still finding his way, I want you to, one, have a lot of grace for yourself. I mean, in oth- in other words, go easy on yourself. Be kind to yourself. It's gonna be really hard, and it doesn't stop where you feel like you have to take everything really seriously and really hard all the time. Some of it is you just need to find ways to not be so hard on yourself, all right? Second of not being a pushover is find-- Right now you're at a place in life where you have the opportunity to find your convictions. Find what your values are. Find what you feel convicted about in ways that you can say, "This is what I firmly believe and I firmly hold, and this is what I know to be true." These are the things in life that you say, "This is... There is no gray to this. It's either black or white, and I have decided that this is who I want to be and this is who I show up." And when you are able to know those convictions and take them to heart, it gets much easier later in life to stand by what you know to be true because this, this is your conviction, that you have a seed that you have planted on good soil, and you, throughout your life, in your early 20s and beyond, you have watered it, you have pruned it, you have cultivated it to where it is something that is gonna have s- so much growth and so many deep roots that it can't be cut down, to where it doesn't matter what somebody says. It doesn't matter the disagreement. Your roots are deep enough to where you said, "This is my belief at the cost of anything else to, um, to distract away from it, and this is what I know, and this is why I can disagree and stay f- and staying firm in, in what I believe." Great question, Austin. Can't wait to see, um, where your wisdom takes you in life.

Episode duration: 48:39