Stop Letting One Person Control Every Conversation

1. 0:00 – 1:55

   When your spouse dominates every conversation: framing it with love and realism

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      I kind of snuck out to ask you a secret question, 'cause it's, my husband gets hurt about this, but he talks so much.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:06

      [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker0:06

      Like, he just won't, like, stop talking.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:09

      [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker0:09

      And I feel like the only way I can say anything is to interrupt him. He's... It's... He's sweet. He's a honey. He just is one of those people that doesn't pause, and one thing leads to the next. I don't know how to have, like, a back-and-forth conversation with him. We've been married 26, 26 years, Jefferson. But what do I do? Like, he doesn't even have awareness of how he's controlling the entire conversation, 'cause he just won't stop talking. And if I say anything and I interrupt, he says, "Wait, I'm still talking. Wait till I finish." And it's driving me crazy.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:41

      [laughs]

   7. SPSpeaker0:42

      Help me. I love him. I don't not love him, but it makes it very fatiguing to have a one-way conversation every time we talk. Thanks, Jefferson.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:50

      [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker0:50

      Um, how do I know if you answer? I-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

       [laughs] You know if I answer when I was... Say this right here. Hey, Michelle. Um, Michelle, y'all been married 26 years, and just now you found this out? Like, you've been... You, you knew this since the day y'all been dating. You've been together 26 years, and just now you're saying he talks so much? You knew this. You knew this. This is part of also why you love him. Imagine if he was the opposite for a second. Imagine if he was the opposite, and you... He was, like, pulling teeth. He wouldn't be the same person. You wouldn't love him as much, all right? So know that that- that's part of his personality, and most likely it's very akin to, like, one of his, one of his parents, right? Probably somebody, one of his mom or dad, was also very talkative because it's, it's one of those inherited communication traits, is talking so much they don't know when to stop. Okay. What c- what can you do? What are some practical things that you could do? One is we're gonna do this in a spirit of love. You already told me many times you love this man. I love that. We're gonna do this in a spirit of love. That means

2. 1:55 – 2:56

   Tactical interruptions that don’t escalate: affectionate, playful, and direct

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:55

      when you need to interrupt him, when you need to interrupt him because he's talking way too long, I need you to have a little bit of a smile on your face as if you're saying this in love playfully. Maybe it's... Like, you called him a honey. Maybe you need to... You can either use his name or use some other kind of a- affection name. So if his name was, I don't know, let's just say, um, Joe, I need you to be, "Joe," right? I need you to be playful a little bit. Use his name. Or if it's honey, sweetie, like, any- anything, mi amor, whatever it is. I... Hey, be able to do that, okay? What it does is gonna get him to stop just for a second. Uh, listen to me. Don't wait for a pause in the conversation because it ain't coming, okay? So even if he's mid-sentence, if it's gotten to a point where you

3. 2:56 – 3:59

   Speeding up long stories: ‘I’ve heard this’ + ‘Give me the headline’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:56

      can't really take it anymore, I need you to, to go ahead and interrupt and insert that right there, okay? Now, if it is something that he has shared before and he's repeating it, it's okay for you to say, "Hey, I... You probably may not remember. You did tell me this before. I have heard this," right? It's good for them to know, 'cause they're obviously, they're, they're not remembering that. Or if you need to, what I like to say is, "Hey, I need the headline first." Meaning get me to the top of the story, because right now, like a newspaper, you have me on page, you know, s- at, at the bottom it says, "See page 3F," and you got me way back there. I need you to give me to the top of the, the story here. And so what I like to say is, "Hey, can I get the... I need the headline. I need the headline." Or

4. 3:59 – 6:35

   Make it a shared system: code words, ‘shot clock,’ and landing the plane

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:59

      I think one thing would be great, I would love to see this with you and your s- your honey, all right? Is three, make a plan. Truly. Have a conversation with him that says, "Hey, you know I love you. You love me, don't you?" He's gonna say yes. "There are times that you know and I know that you use way more words. Like, you're pretty... You use a l- That you love words. We know you love a lot of words, and sometimes my cup of your words gets full, and once it's full, I can't hear anything else, and I know I wanna hear what you have to say, but I can't, I can't hear any more. So to make sure that you and I can communicate well, what would be helpful for me in this relationship to communicate to you to let you know, 'Hey, we might need to taper this off.'" Because most likely when people talk so much, they just don't know how to land the plane, so they just keep, keep it in the air, 'cause they really don't know how to land it. And so they will just continue to, to talk. Create it as a fun process and game where it's light-hearted, where you say, "Hey, what c- what can I do? What can I say?" And maybe you create a code word where it's, you know, I don't know. I'm gonna go crazy here. Maybe it's you just say, "Hey, bongos." Like, uh, come up with a name, [laughs] okay, that is goofy enough, playful enough that you're not offending him, you're not cutting him off, and you're also having to stand your ground and say, "This is getting too much for me." For him to know, it's a word that y'all have agreed to, to say, "You gotta wrap it up. Here's, here's the countdown. You got, you got five more seconds, 10 more seconds to get this Thought done. Maybe he's a sports guy and you go, "Hey, shot clock started." Like, you need to be able to, to count this down to know he has a, a time at the end of it. That's what I would go with because it sounds like you have a beautiful relationship. Keep that. Maintain that. Don't overthink this. Say it. He already knows he's using a lot of words. So ask him, involve him in the process of, "Hey, what can I do that's gonna save my sanity, that's gonna allow me to say, 'Hey, you've, you've, you've, you've filled up the top of the, the cup. It's now overflowing. I'm not really hearing anything, and if anything, it's making me more aggravated.' Give me... What's the, what's the headline here? Hey, shot clock's down to 10." Right? And even, you can, you-- Just be as playful as you want. That's the key takeaway. Be, be playful with it.

5. 6:35 – 7:24

   Texting vs calling: validating preferences while recognizing modern defaults

   1. SPSpeaker6:35

      Hi, my name is Molly. In my generation, I feel like everyone just texts all the time, and I do not like texting. I expressed that to someone, and they still just text. And I wanted to ask you, is there a better way to approach that conversation, or is it just you can't change people, and that's just the way they are, and that's just how I'm perceived?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:54

      Hey, Molly. I like you. Here's what I need you to know. One, texting is communication, so I need you to see at a base level that people wanna communicate with you. I agree on it's not your favorite mode of communication. Wasn't that long ago that texting didn't exist, and people still figured out how to communicate, right? So I, I, I hear you on that. Two, my, my hope

6. 7:24 – 10:57

   Setting ‘textless’ boundaries: ask for calls, and let fit decide the relationship

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:24

      would be, and when you hear this response, that you would soften your approach a little bit to texting because there's a practicality of where we're at right now of this is the norm and the default, how people first, you know, connect with one another. Three, that being said, you are absolutely within your right to say, "You know what? I'm not really a, a texter. I'd much prefer just to call you. In our, our communication, if you think of me, call me. And don't worry about texting me. Texting's not my favorite. Call me, and I call you." You have that ability. If-- I kinda love that. It-- There is a place, and you know this, when texting is not enough. You have to hear human voice to hear their words, to see them in front of you, to feel that warmth, right? You can't, you can't feel the warmth of a smile the same way you can in the smile of an emoji. It doesn't hit the same. So when you feel like, "Hey, this is somebody who matters to me a lot," and maybe it's dating, maybe it's a friend or whatever it is, and you s- and you voice that to them, that says, "Hey, I am-- The way I do friendships, I do not text. I would much prefer you call me. You call me. And if I don't answer the call, leave me a voicemail. That's-- I'm old school that way. That's-- this is how I handle it." And if they can't respect that, then they are not your people, right? Then, then there are people who will say, "You know what? It's worth it to me. I care enough about you to say, 'If I wanna communicate with you, this is what I, I need to do.' Yeah, you're worth it." Then hear me. You're worth that. If that's your requirement for communication and friendship and relationship, you are worth that. And what's the cost? A phone call? What's the cost to them? If, if, if you are not worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice, then my goodness, how in the world would ever the friendship be worth it to them? You are worth picking up the phone and hearing your voice. And if that is how you communicate, one, I kind of applaud you in that sense to say, "Hey, I really care about this, this type of deep connection. I need that. I need that in my life." You know what, probably, I need more of that too. I need more of that too. Personally, me, Jefferson, I, I need more of that in my own life, where we get so f- quick day in and day out, and we only communicate by text, and if we just call that person. So maybe you've, you've done something and aroused something in somebody else listening to this and say, "You know what? I've been relying too much on text. I need to, I need to call my friend." A- anybody-- For those of you who know what it's like in your life when a friend just randomly calls on you, just calls out of the blue, and they go, "No, I just wanted to see how you were doing. Just thought of you. Wanted to call and hear your voice," it's, it's like just a full ray of sunshine hits your face. Like, you just feel like somebody cared about you. So I want you to know, yes, you are absolutely entitled to want that, to need that, to say, "This is my requirement in relationships and friendships. I don't do text. I don't do text." If all these places and shopping places

7. 10:57 – 12:10

   Sponsor break: Pendulum Metabolic Daily (gut health, cravings, energy)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:57

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8. 12:10 – 15:14

   A mother won’t use a legally changed name: what boundaries are really for

   1. SPSpeaker12:10

      Hi, Jefferson. I'm a longtime follower of your advice on Instagram, and I'd love your perspective on something.

   2. SPSpeaker12:16

      My name is Asha. About 15 years ago, I legally changed my name because my birth name never felt like me. My current name is the name everyone knows me by, including my young daughter, and is deeply meaningful to me. The problem is that my mom still refuses to use it. She continues to call me by, by, by my birth name and even keeps that name in her phone. I understand that changing my name may have felt painful or even rejecting to her, and I've genuinely tried to have empathy for that, but it's been 15 years, and hearing my birth name still brings up a lot of difficult feelings for me. It's also becoming confusing for my daughter because she only knows me as Asha. I know I can't make someone change their name in their phone or choose to use my legal name, and I know how to communicate a boundary like, "I need you to call me by my name," but where I get stuck is the consequence. I don't want a consequence to feel like a punishment or an ultimatum, but I also don't know how to protect myself when someone repeatedly refuses to acknowledge something as fundamental as my name. So my question is, how do I respond when someone who loves me refuses to recognize me as I am now? And where's the line between enforcing a healthy boundary and trying to control someone else's behavior? I really appreciate what you're doing. Thanks so much for your thoughts on this.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher13:43

      Mm. Thank you, Asha, because that's your name. Asha, thank you. Where's the line between drawing a healthy boundary and using a boundary to control somebody else's behavior? The line is the intention behind it because you can use a boundary to try and manipulate, to try and, you know, be a hedge around, away from different kinds of behaviors that are both harmful or productive. Or is it out of, "This is something that is protecting me," because it sounds, Asha, that you're having a lot of pain associated with this, and I don't blame you. Everybody knows you by this name. Your daughter knows you by this name, and here your mom is openly for 15 years refusing to accept that. I love that you're able to kind of step into her shoes for a second and say, "Hey, I can see that there's also a part of this that has to be kind of painful, that, that as part of choosing my name, I have somehow rejected that," and maybe she's feeling like... Your mom feels like in a way you've rejected her by not wanting to have that name. There's also a place that both things can be true of it's been 15 years. This is who everybody knows you as. It never felt

9. 15:14 – 15:45

   How to confront the ‘why’: questions that reveal what your mom is holding onto

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:14

      that way to you, so how, how are we gonna communicate this? I'm assuming that y'all have had a lot of conversations about this already, and I'm very, very curious about what her answer would be to the question of, "What is it bringing up for you? What is preventing you from calling me by this name? What would, what does it mean to you when you call me... if, if you were to call me Asha

10. 15:45 – 18:48

    Consequences aren’t punishment: building a conditional boundary with real follow-through

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:45

       instead of my given name?" What would she have to admit to herself if she called you by the name that you go by now, right? Because th-that's, that's her work. That's her work to deal with. When we talk about the boundaries level of it, here's what I need you to know w- because I love that you say, "I don't want it to feel like a, a punishment," but a consequence is a consequence, Asha. If I were to continue to press the red button and the sign says, "If you press the red button, you're gonna have to, you know, uh, leave the room," well, that's, that's the consequence of it. There is, there is... It's math, right? It, it's how there's inputs and there's outputs, and so by her choosing this path, she's also choosing the consequence. So that's, that's... That is nothing that, as you said, that you can control. So here, here are some practical takeaways that I would, I would give for this. One, I want you to see that taking a step away from this is your mother's choice, not so much yours. In other words, you're willing to have an open relationship with her, a loving relationship with her, and here are the requirements for that. You are allowed to have requirements in a relationship. No matter if it's romantic, if it's friendship, if it's somebody you're related to, you are allowed, you have the right, the privilege of having requirements, and one requirement for you is that you use your given name. There's nothing more important to somebody than the sound of their own name because it's, it's deep. It's how you identify who you are. I mean, there's a reason why my name isn't, you know, William. It's, it's Jefferson, and if my mom only wanted to call me William and I, I like to go by Jefferson, there's a point of that that says that you might be-- she might be rejecting me, and that might be how you're feeling. So how, how do we put this in terms of a boundary? I want you to understand that part of the consequence might need to be that you take some space away from each other. And I mean that. Maybe you've already tried that. The consequence could be, "Hey, I don't respond to that name. If you continue to call me by this name, then I need to take some distance away. Then I need to reevaluate our relationship. Then I need to take a pause, and I'll, I'll respond to you in a few weeks." You see how it's, it's more than just saying- "Please don't call me that," that's, that's not enough of a boundary. I need it to be much more assertive and conditional, meaning I, I... It's not you can't call me that. It's I, I don't respond to that name. If you, you hear the condition, if you continue to call me that, then, three, this is the consequence of saying, "If you continue to do this, this is what you're going to get." It's, the choice

11. 18:48 – 21:14

    Finding a bridge: substitute terms of endearment and keeping the door open

    1. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

       is yours. Then I'm gonna need to take some space. I'm gonna need to reevaluate this relationship. You feel me? Now, where can we go from here? I want you to know that there is a time and place possibly for the conversation for you to outline. Let's say you haven't addressed this with her, for you to say, "This is very painful for me, and if you love me, then you, you don't want to cause me pain." Maybe there is somewhere where it's baby steps, and when she feels maybe more comfortable calling you something that's, like, more akin to daughter or my love or i- something that is, uh, she can associate with you that she's used maybe your, your whole life. My mom, my mom's always called me sweetie. Like, something that is still a loving, endearing, meaningful term that does not cause her the same level of, of pain because this stuff goes deep. This is, this is, this is, this is really deep stuff. So maybe there's a, a, a conversation that you can have around that. And three, what I, I need you to know is that when you make the consequence of a boundary conditional, it leaves it entirely in their hands to accept it or not accept it, and if they don't accept the boundary, then they are accepting the consequence of it, and that is not your fault. That is not punishment. Hear me. When you have a consequence to your boundary, it is not a punishment. You are doing exactly what you need to protect yourself, and it sounds like that's... It sounds like you have all the right tools at your disposal in, in place, Asha. So I would, one, reconsider how you put up the boundary. Two, leave the door open with questions over what would it look like, what would it mean to you if you called me by the name that I go by now? Or what, what would that sound like to you? How would that feel to you? Rather than getting upset that she's not. So there's a lot of onion peeling that's gonna need to happen. And three, I need you to be okay with putting a very hard line consequence that means distance, that means space for both of you to reevaluate, take some time, reconsider before the conversation comes back. That's what I would hope for the relationship between you and your mom. Great question.

12. 21:14 – 22:27

    Political conflict with family: avoid the topic or change the way you talk about it

    1. SPSpeaker21:14

       Hi, Jefferson. My name is Carol, and re- my issue is mostly with my daughter, who's on the opposite side of the political field-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher21:25

       Mm

    3. SPSpeaker21:25

       ... to the point where she sometimes says I'm racist, which is really hard to hear. We tried having a conversation. I try to use some of your tools so it doesn't escalate, but it gets difficult sometimes, and then we end up not talking about it because either of us don't wanna get in an argument. But I, if I do voice my feelings, I'm afraid she'll cut off contact with my granddaughter, so it makes it hard to come to an understanding or a middle ground.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher21:57

       Wonderful question. Rule number one for me is always, if you can avoid politics, avoid it because it changes. Not even the news can agree on what's happening in politics, and there are certain things that it's not about the actual issues, it's about the actual heart issues behind it and that that's a whole lot harder and a whole lot deeper. So that's rule [chuckles] number one. If you can,

13. 22:27 – 27:02

    De-escalation language: ask for help, speak in perspectives, and remove blame words

    1. JFJefferson Fisher22:27

       I prefer you avoid it. Number two, if it's now become a thing in the conversation and, and you saying that she thinks, uh, somehow that you've made some kind of derogatory remark and she now perceives this in some way as to your character and that really bothers you and scares you, I think that is absolutely valid. Here is where, rather than trying to prove points, okay, I need you to start sharing and asking about her perspective. I love that you're using the tools about not escalating things. Keep doing that because that's probably gonna save a lot of heartache and grief. What I now need you to do is ask questions such as, "What am I, what am I missing? How can we talk about the things that are important to you, and how can I share my perspective without upsetting you in some way? Help me understand what I'm missing." Talk about how you two communicate and how you can talk about the process of how you're communicating about this or whether y'all even want to talk about politics. So y- rather than it letting, letting it be the elephant in the room, what I would prefer you do is to say, "Hey, I can tell, and I'm sure you can see, too, that when we start talking about politics, things kind of fall apart and doesn't really help either one of us. Are you good in with us just having an understanding that it's you see things and I see things and it's, that both things can be true and fair and continue? Let's talk about your granddaughter. Let's talk about all the other amazing things. Let's talk about the other 99% of things that are going right in our, in your world." So there's that conversation. Two, I would love for the conversation to Begin with something along the lines of, "Help me. Help me understand why-- how this has become so important, this topic has become so important to you." Right? "Help me understand where you come from, or where you learned this, or how long you've held onto this belief." Don't get into the, you know, "Why can't you just understand? Why can't you just get it?" As soon as you go into the whole, "I-- why can't you just be like me?" kind of communication, the other person's just gonna close up. Now, I'm not saying you do that. I'm saying a lot of people do, and it's, it's natural. It's easy to fall into that trap, but it's gonna close off the line of communication. So what I need you to do is ask her for help. That could be a really big step in y'all's relationship. I w- I would pray that it would be for you to say, "Help me understand," not just about this topic, 'cause it's not about the topic. It is about how this topic became so ingrained with you. How can we communicate about this? How can I give my answers genuinely without you thinking that I am trying to nar- be narrow-minded about this? What, what would I need to say and express for you to understand that I truly want to keep an open mind about this conversation? So you can go two different paths. We can either decide not to talk about politics, or we, if we're gonna talk about it, let's do it in a way that's going to open it up and say, um, "Nobody's pointing fingers in this discussion. We're simply hearing things out." So I want you to use words that show perspective. When you need to voice a response that you have a point of view on something, do not begin with, you know, "I just don't get," or, "I don't understand," or, "You just," and, "You never." Instead of that, I want you to be able to say, "I see things differently." Instead of, "I disagree. Nah, I d- I don't, I, I don't agree with that." Instead of that, "I see things differently. I, I have a different perspective. I take another approach." Any time that you use those kind of words, it's not g- going to get her nearly as defensive, and so that allows more conversation to be fluid and flow, and that would be my recommendation.

14. 27:02 – 28:33

    Sponsor break: Gusto payroll (business payroll made simple)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher27:02

       If you can, let's talk about your granddaughter. Before we keep going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Gusto. I, Jefferson, believe it or not, I have owned probably three to four businesses before I am doing this in this world, and there are a lot of different things that I, I did that were just for the fun of it, uh, bless my wife's heart, of hobbies of like, I wanna start this out. And you know what? I have used Gusto as a payroll system for every single one of them. I'm think I'm on my like sixth payroll Gusto account. This is how good this is. I don't, I don't compare them to anybody else. Gusto is in an absolute league of their own. If you own any kind of business or wanna start anything and you're an entrepreneur, payroll is one of the scariest, most heartburn moments of a business owner because y- you're not really sure what it means, how to do it, uh, what's the best way to do it. You wanna make sure that you're taking care of your people, but are they on a salary? Are they, uh, hourly? And don't even get me started on payroll taxes, and especially if people are working remote and all that does. Listen to me when I tell you that Gusto is all you need when it comes to searching for a payroll provider. They make it easy. They make it seamless. And you can actually get on the phone with a real human when you have real questions. So take it from me, Gusto is what's up when it comes to payroll. Right now, you can go to gusto.com/jefferson and use the code JEFFERSON and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Gusto.com/jefferson, three months free, which is incredible when you use the code JEFFERSON. And now, let's keep going.

15. 28:33 – 33:06

    Should you expect wealthy family to help? separating hope from entitlement

    1. SPSpeaker28:33

       Hi, Jefferson. I am 79 years old and have a brother age 75 who was a super successful Hollywood personality in the '80s and '90s. He's worth about 100 million. My question is, is it wrong of me to expect him to help me financially? My husband is partially disabled now. We've been married 50 years and are very happy. We are also not allowed to visit my brother in LA or on his 3,000 acre farm. Thank you very much. I've never expected anything from him, and I've always been close to him as children. I'm very proud of him.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher29:28

       My answer is going to be yes. I, I do think it is wrong to expect someone to help you financially. I do not think the hope or the thought is wrong. I think the expectation is because their life is their life, and your life is your life. And if you expect somebody else, even despite your own circumstances, if you expect and put that on them, then you're setting yourself up for the relationship n- now being about the expectation of the unsaid and why wouldn't they, don't they know, shouldn't they see. Now you've made that the relationship rather than simply the love for one another. And it, it sounds like there is a lot that is into that question because it, it, it, it doesn't make clear why the distance, what caused it, how long there's been distance. I love that you and your husband are happy And you've been married for so long, and that sounds wonderful and healthy. So I want to clarify that the hope of somebody, your brother helping you, that's not wrong. I do believe that the expectation that he help you is wrong. Sure, it would be nice, but that's not what the relationship has ever been about. As soon as you put money in any kind of relationship, family, friends, otherwise, as soon as you insert the issue of money between you, there is a reason why money is the root of all evil. It, it separates, splits even the closest of people, even those who love each other so much. When money's involved, greed happens. And maybe, maybe there's the chance that we can look at this in the most positive light because I prefer to look at it in the most positive light, really the most real light. Let's-- Uh, I want to be-- Let's put it in the most genuine light. I see two different sides. One, the brother is just a greedy, want to keep it all to himself, you know, uh, Scrooge. Or two, he doesn't want money to be a thing in any of his relationships. Now, if he gives money to others in the family but doesn't give to you, that's, that's different. That's telling. I know people in my life that in their family, it's, it's the whole issue of like, do parents pass down money to their kids, or is there expectation of getting something when somebody else is successful and, uh, when somebody has, uh, you know, their, their star shoots upwards, does everybody else expect something? And then that goes into the question of, is the relationship, was it ever really real, or is it just the now the, "Where's my, where's my gimme, gimme? Where's my handout?" That does not sound... I'm not saying at all that's you, because what I hear you saying is, "I've never asked him for anything." I love that. Stay that way. Stay that way. I don't think that the hope in-inside of that is, is wrong for you to feel that way. I want you to understand how you feel about it. I think it's totally valid. It would be nice. It really would. It would be, it would be super nice and helpful. That's his choice, not

16. 33:06 – 34:24

    Repairing estrangement: the ‘before we leave this earth’ conversation

    1. JFJefferson Fisher33:06

       your choice. It does sound like there's a bigger conversation on how estranged you two are. I would love to hear what the response would be to you tossing up the question of, "Hey, before you and I leave this earth, I just want to know, have I ever done anything... Am I missing anything that would have brought us closer together? Was there ever a time that I, I missed the step, or I missed the chance to grow closer with you or show up better as a sister for you or show love to you?" And just pose that question and see what kind of response that you get because you're brother and sister, and y'all are now at a stage of life when these kind of conversations, if, if they're left unsaid, th-then they'll never be finished. So I, I, I encourage you to have that conversation and really focus on the marriage that you have and the beauty that y'all have created in, in all the years. So all, all the best to you and, uh, your family.

Episode duration: 34:25