Stop Letting People Use Their Personality As An Excuse

1. 0:00 – 0:08

   Voicemail format and rapid-fire coaching setup

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, I have the absolute privilege of listening to some more voicemails, and I get to answer them, and we're gonna hit it right now.

2. 0:08 – 3:02

   When “I’m just direct” is used to justify rudeness

   1. SPSpeaker0:08

      I have a daughter-in-law, she's a stepdaughter-in-law, who is very, I think, rude, but she's a lawyer, and she says, "I like to be very direct." And then she hits you with a zinger and tells you how awful you are and blah, blah, blah, and tells you off. It's a pattern she's had. She's done some really bad ones. Once she did a three-day letter to tell me off. What's behind all this with her, and how do I counter that?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      So there's this thing that some people have that they... This is what it sounds like. "This is just my personality. This is just how I am. I'm, I'm just very direct." And they use that as some type of excuse to say not nice things, to things that are rude, things that are, aren't kind, and yet they feel like they have some shroud of immunity because they go, "Oh, th-that's just my personality." You don't need to take that. This is what I want you to do instead. Questions are far more powerful than statements, especially when somebody's being rude. When somebody says, "Hey, I'm, uh, this is just my personality," that you get to ask the question, "Is that a personality or is this a choice?" Is this a personality or is this a choice? You see how instead of me going, uh, and turning it into a statement of accusation and saying, "No, it's not your personality. This is how you're just choosing to be. This is how you are." Like, that's only going to make it worse. But if you ask the question, then they get to actually think about it, and now there's a spotlight on how they're treating you, and now they have to go through the mental exercise of answering that question or choosing to accept their bad behavior, right? So we're gonna-- You do these, um, where you give them choices, and almost always people to-tend to do the more reasonable choice of walking it back rather than doubling it down. Another thing, when somebody is... You, when you ask the question of, you know, what's behind all that? What, what, what's behind all that? I'll tell you what's behind all that. It is a inner insecurity that if they are not, uh, people that are, like, very brisk, very, um, I just-- They always have the spikes out. They're always, uh, somebody who is, uh, overtly confrontational just for the sake of it. That is them being extremely defensive on the inside, a fear of looking weak at all costs because they're afraid that if they do look weak, then they lose something. They lose that identity, and most likely that's something that, how she has been, this, uh, stepdaughter-in-law of yours, has been long before she ever came anywhere near your life and your family, all right? So I don't you think you're gonna be changing that. What I'm telling you, it's not gonna change that behavior. What I'm gonna teach you is how to deal with that behavior, and it starts

3. 3:02 – 5:24

   Three tools for handling verbal zingers: questions, mirrors, and distance

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:02

      with, one, what I just told you, is turning statements into questions. I want you to get really disciplined about turning statements into questions. Two, when she makes those kind of, um, grouchy responses that you say, man, they, sh-sure they're just zingers. They hurt you. I want you to not be afraid of beginning your question with, "Did you mean?" Did you mean for that to sting? Did you mean for that to hurt? Wow, that, did you, did you mean for, for that to, to, to hit me like that? Like, it, it's, it's a great way of being a mirror for them to realize, hey, what you're saying has an impact. And if she's okay with hurting you, that's a much bigger problem than we're gonna ever talk about on this quick voicemail. What I'm telling you is these are the kind of things that you need to have in your arsenal. And three, I want you to realize where you rank this person in your life. I have no idea how close y'all are, but I want you to realize that there are circles and there is people that you keep close and people you know to keep far away. And so if she's somebody who continues to give zingers and continues to take more than she gives and always feels like, "Oh, that's just my personality," you don't need to put up with that. You don't need to be anywhere near that. You limit that kind of behavior. But, uh, overall, what I want you to realize is when you get those kind of, "This is just my personality. This is just who I am," you get to ask the question, is it who you are or who you're wanting to be? Is this, is this how you are naturally, or is this a new choice for you, right? And, and you get to even say, like, "It doesn't sound like a personality. It sounds, sounds like a problem. Sounds like a issue. Sounds like you're upset. Sounds like something else is going on." There's these, uh, these starters that I also like. It sounds like, seems like. It's, you know, it, it sounds like there's something else going on. Sounds like... You ever, you hear what I mean? You're, you're mirroring that kind of language without being direct to the point of a direct attack. Instead, you're opening up to invite a little bit more conversation if it is warranted. But turn questions into statements. Don't put up with it. Thanks.

4. 5:24 – 9:32

   Handling backhanded compliments at work (three escalation levels)

   1. SPSpeaker5:24

      Hi, this is Kelly. I am a sales leader, uh, for a large organization, and I live in Charleston, South Carolina. And I am curious, what is the best way to respond to a backhanded compliment? Sometimes I will receive backhanded compliments from some of my peers within my organization, and it feels obvious to me, um, the motives behind a backhanded compliment, but I, I'm curious what would be the best way to respond in the moment to one. I'd appreciate your advice. Thanks so much.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:00

      Great question. Here's what I want you to do the next time you get one of these backhanded compliments from a coworker or client or, or whatever it is. Take what they said and regurgitate it back and add a question mark at the end. That's it. Backhanded compliment, I want you to just repeat it, put a question mark at the end of it. So if somebody, let's say a backhanded compliment, I'm just making this up, somebody came to you and said, "Oh, it's so great that you're here. It's, it's nice that you're finally on time." Right? You hear how, like, passive, that's kind of dismissive, this backhanded compliment in some way. You get to repeat it and go, "It's so great that I'm here?" Like, as if you're questioning what they're-- where, where their motive is, where they're coming from. And it might sound that you didn't understand it. That's not how it's gonna come across to you. It's gonna come across that you heard exactly what they said, but something doesn't add up. All right? So number one, you can repeat it back with a question mark, which is gonna make them explain it. And number two, another... I'm gonna give you three different options, so you can pick and choose which one that you want that best matches with you. So one is the repeating it back, add a question mark. I like that one because it then makes the other person explain. Number two, another option that you can have is to ask them in almost this very confident tone, "Tell me more. Tell me more what you meant by that. Tell me more about that. What, what do you-- what do you mean by that? Tell me more about that." So whenever you ask for, like, more information, you, you, in this case, instead of asking them verbatim what they said, now you get to be a little bit more direct. So you crank this up a little bit in directness of saying, "Give me more information. Oh, that's, that's interesting comment, but tell me, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that." So that, that allows them to kinda go, "Oh, oh, I mean, what I, what I meant to say was..." I mean, I mean, you know, to try and what they say in the South, hem and haw over what exactly they meant to say. Number three, the other one that I would, without knowing exactly what kind of backhanded compliment they're going to give, is this is gonna be-- I'm gonna give you one. We're increasing in directness scale, all right? Just depending on your own temperature. This is using the word backhanded, okay? Might feel uncomfortable to you, so try it out. Try it out a few times before you actually use it. And that's using-- It, it sounds like this: "That sounds kinda backhanded." Or you can even ask as a question. I like that even better. "Did you mean for that to be backhanded? Was that supposed to be backhanded?" Like, you hear how they, uh, automatically, their response, especially if it's a backhanded compliment, is for them to go, "Oh, no, I mean, what, what I meant was..." And they're going to adjust and try and tweak. But here's the takeaway. You can't stop them from saying it the first time, but you can stop them from saying it the second time. There's your power. You can't stop them from saying stupid things, but you can make sure that they know that the second stupid

5. 9:32 – 11:05

   Stay calm and playful to avoid giving control to the provocation

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:32

      thing they said is not something you're gonna take. And it's by how you respond to the first one is going to significantly, significantly impact your likelihood of getting a second stupid thing that they said. So whenever you're able to say, "Was that, was that supposed to be backhanded?" Like, was it-- Did you hit that with the fore-forehand or backhand? Which one is that? Almost be playful with it. Then they're... You see how then it doesn't look like it hits you. Here's the takeaway, too, on top of this that I wanna touch on. If you act as if like, "How dare you do this, say this," that's gonna give them that energy and control that they were looking for. They're gonna see that and go, [snaps fingers] "Got it." But instead, if you keep this very calm, composed, almost playful, inquisitive of, "Where, where's this coming from? Was that meant to be backhanded?" That allows you to keep that energy of, "I'm not accepting this. I haven't accepted this yet. I'm more concerned and question of, where are you sending this from?" So it's like, "Okay, I get the, the delivery address, but where are you sending it from here? Like, I know it's you, but what's going on inside of you that would make you wanna say something like that?" That's the kind of behavior that I want you to take on. Cool? Awesome question. We don't put up with backhanded compliments. Get out of here. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth

6. 11:05 – 12:00

   Sponsor break: Cozy Earth

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:05

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7. 12:00 – 16:41

   Abusive, sadistic partner: stop trying to communicate and get legal help

   1. SPSpeaker12:00

      Hi, Jefferson. Thank you. You have helped me so much. I'm so grateful. I have a narcissistic, uh, husband, um, that is also has is psychopathic. He intentionally inflicts, um, and says things that he knows are my wounds to create pain, knowing it will hurt me, and then laughs. Um, and then I'm to blame for when I react. Um, everything I'm to blame for. Uh, he puts me down, belittles me, everything he can think of. Um, please, how do I communicate with him? Um, I'm wanting to leave him, um, but still he won't hear me. He just continues to say nasty, horrible things, wanting me to take accountability, responsibility. Um, yeah, please, how do I communicate with him? Um, he won't understand me and won't listen. He just won't listen. He won't hear me. Everything's about him. So please, how do I deal with him? I'm living in the same house as him, and I'm needing to get him... For me to move forward, I'm needing to get him to agree to pay me out without ripping me off. Um, he has all control and power. Uh, he loves it. He thrives on it. He gets pleasure out of seeing me when I'm upset and in pain. It's literally disgusting. But please, how do I communicate with him and not react? Thank you. Love your work.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher13:38

      That is horrible. I mean, I can't even speak to the situation that you're in. What I do know is that nobody deserves that. That isn't fair. That isn't justified. That is a zero toleration policy. Your question is, how do I communicate with him? You don't. You need to go communicate to some lawyers. That's who you need to go communicate to, some divorce lawyers, okay? This, how do I communicate with him? If, if what you say is true, that it doesn't matter how you've communicated that, "Hey, can you understand how what you're saying hurts me? Do you understand how this impacts me?" That he's laughing and he's taking joy in your pain. It doesn't matter what you say. He's turning this around. You stop playing in his sandbox, okay? What you're trying to do is build, trying to build some type of something to, to, to have a, a communication, to have a, a conversation, a real conversation that's genuine, and he can't do it. That's not a you problem. That's a him problem. So for you to say, how do I communicate with him? Anybody who has a narcissistic type of tendencies, and I will say that we all have them, right? That it's, they range. He sounds terrible, okay? If what you say is true, that, that sounds just absolutely intolerable. You have to understand that every time you get into this, I want to communicate with him, he's gonna turn it into one or two things, okay? It's what I call praise or provoke, meaning if you're not telling him how awesome he is and how good he is, like you said, he just takes so much joy in this, that he's gonna turn it to now provoke you into you getting upset, and he's gonna fan that flame all day, every day. Why? Because that's that sense of control. He's not gonna be able to do empathy. So please don't expect for there to be movement from a boulder, okay? That's not gonna happen, and that is hard to hear, and that might even feel like a shock to you to hear. But I know what you're hearing is you're nodding your head and knowing deep down that it's true, okay? So what do we do? We stop trying to communicate with him, and I need you to start communicating with some attorneys to get you out of this relationship. That's what, because nobody deserves what you're going through. If you have... I'm not, I'm not... I want to be very clear. I'm not promoting divorce.

8. 16:41 – 19:37

   Validation, safety priorities, and community support for survivors

   1. JFJefferson Fisher16:41

      I'm not promoting that there should not try to be something worked out and, and that there can't be this, and I'm not trying to, to push any type of ideal. What I am saying and pushing for is your emotional safety, your physical safety, and your mental health, and if those three are at risk, then this is not a relationship that is continuing to be good for you. And if it is so true that you find and agree that this relationship is not good for you, then there are methods and solutions to that, one of which, the options that you have at your disposal, is to leave this relationship. And I can tell you what will strike quicker than anything for these type of personalities, of whom I have spoken to many, is a call, a letter, any communication from somebody with some legal authority, whether it's a judge, whether it's an attorney. I understand that, of course, that's not gonna stop their kind of behavior, but it can keep you out of it. That's not gonna change who they are because we've seen, and I've seen countless times people who do not change their stripes even through a huge divorce proceeding. They're still gonna be that same person. What you're doing is getting that separation and invoking other people into it that you do have the ability, should you need to enforce it, you can enforce it. So what I'm telling you is you have capabilities to Give yourself agency. That's what I'm saying. I am appalled, I'm appalled by that kind of behavior and that you'd have to live with this and deal with this. I can't even imagine what that life is like, and I know you, mm, I know you are not alone. Okay? I know there are people listening right now who are just nodding their head and saying, "I know exactly what this is like. I know exactly what this is like." So I don't want you to, I don't want you to hear this... Listen to me. Do not hear this and think, "I'm all by myself and nobody knows what this is like." A lot of people, way more than you think, know exactly what this is like. Everybody that's listening to this and you know w- what this caller's talking about and you're living this life right now, I'm gonna encourage you to just go into the comments or wherever you're listening and just let her know she's been... You've been there too. You've been there too, or maybe you're there right now. Or even a simple, "You're not alone," because it's gonna help a lot more people than you know. Leaving this note with me, this voicemail, for us to give some voice to this kind of thing, that's what, that's what we're doing it for, all right? Thank you for that call.

9. 19:37 – 23:00

   Friend-zone boundary: making “just friends” actually land

   1. SPSpeaker19:37

      This is Tanya, and I'm not gonna take three minutes.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher19:40

      [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker19:40

      Why do I have to explain to a gentleman that I just want to be friends, uh, that keeps sticking around? I have explained myself once or twice. I'm done, right? What do I need to do to get it through their heads? I only want to be friends.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher19:58

      Well, it's probably because you're so amazing and awesome. That's why he didn't want to be friends. Okay. What do you... How do we, how do we handle this? How do you communicate this knowing full well you're awesome, of course he'd want to be with you, but you just want to be friends, right? How, how, how do we communicate this to this, this boneheaded caveman who, who won't get a grip, you know? Catch, catch a drift. How do we communicate this? All right. Here's some things that come to mind, and we're gonna go from easiest to most serious. You ready? Number one, I know you think you told him you just wanna be friends. Just because you think you said it, doesn't mean that's exactly what's received. So let's, let's do a conversation check, which means with this individual, the next time he's kind of hanging around or y'all have a conversation and you just want to be friends... By the way, if you want to be friends, so is this y'all wanting to hang out or not hang out? You need to make that decision. It's obvious you don't want anything romantic. You don't want anything to go past that. So if he's hanging out, why you letting him hang out? One question. I'm curious about this. Okay. Well, still, how are we gonna communicate that? Conversation check. What does that sound like? Sounds like the next time that y'all are in conversation and you feel like he's pressing it a little too far, I want you to ask the question. I want you to say, "When I said that I just wanted to be friends with you, what, what did you, what did you hear? H- how did that land for you?" I'll... And get him to answer that. I, I wanna know what did, what did you hear when I told you that I just wanted to be friends? Now, you can do that in a very polite, positive, nice, friendly way, but you need to know what he's hearing, okay? Because he's not getting the point. He's not getting the point. Number two, we're gonna ratchet this up, okay? This is where you get to be a little bit more assertive of if he's trying to make a move on you, you know who I'm talking about, or he's trying to be a little bit too friendly. This is where you get to say, "Only friends." Like, you see how I... You don't even have to... You're not making it a conversation. You're not asking a question. This is you kind of putting out a very little bit more friendly version of a boundary where just two words, "Only friends." Yeah? Doesn't that feel comfortable where you... Yeah. "Let's go have coffee as only friends." Yeah. "I'm willing to do this as friends." Yeah? So maybe as friends, only friends. Yeah. Let's tr- try something like

10. 23:00 – 24:31

    When it becomes unsafe: escalation to legal protection

    1. JFJefferson Fisher23:00

       that. I like that, as friends. I think I land on that better, as friends. Just start adding that to everything that you say. "Yeah, I'll go out to coffee with you as friends." Cool? Until it's we're pressing the point, until you realize you don't have to say it anymore. Number three. Okay, if this guy's hanging around you, I'm just telling you, you have options, okay? You have legal options. They're called a restraining order if [laughs] you need to keep somebody away from you. All right? So I'm gonna go serious for like five seconds. You ready? Hey, if this is somebody that's really not leaving you alone, and they're waiting for you outside of your house and following you around and showing up places, that is... If I had a red flag, I would wave it really big in front of my face right now. If you're listening, just imagine me waving a big, big red flag. You need to go to law enforcement, and you can apply for and get a restraining order on this individual, especially if you feel like you are threatened in some way to where it's gotten to way creepier level that you need to do something about it. Cool? Okay. Now, that's the serious. What I feel like from your call, the zone that we're in, the friend zone of [laughs] this call, is that- Using the as friends line through everything as a repeat, and then asking the question of, "When you heard me say just friends, what did that-- what did you hear me say? Like, how did that,

11. 24:31 – 26:14

    Sponsor break: LMNT

    1. JFJefferson Fisher24:31

       how did that come across to you? How did you receive that?" And you're gonna find out real quickly if they really got it or if they heard something else and they were just in la-la land looking at your beauty, and they didn't hear a single thing, right? So that's, that's my take on somebody who's just not getting the point. Great question. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about LMNT, which as my kids call it, salty water. LMNT is an easy way to stay hydrated. It comes in packs, also in like seltzer cans, where it's very salty, but it's the good stuff, where it's no sugar, gives you lots of electrolytes and keeps you hydrated, which is great. Uh, what I-- the flavor I like, I take the packets because I'm not a seltzer person. I don't really do carbonation, but my kids do. They love it. And so usually they'll ask for it after dinner. That's like my son's choice of drink. He calls it, "Can I-- I want, I wanna go get some salty water." Um, and if it's not cold, he calls it spicy water 'cause he sk- he, he finds the carbonation spicy. Anyway, I like the, I like the packets of it. And they just came out with some new flavors. That's tea and lemonade, like an Arnold, Arnold Palmer type of thing, pink lemonade, and just a regular lemonade. It's fantastic. I highly, highly, um, recommend those flavors. They're the best. So LMNT was made for people on a mission, people like you and me, from parents to business leaders. And right now, LMNT is offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order, which is pretty sweet. Head... Or pretty salty. Head to drinkLMNT.com. That was such a bad dad joke.

    2. SPSpeaker26:05

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher26:06

       Head to drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try it risk-free. That's drink L-M-N-T .com/jefferson. Let's keep going.

12. 26:14 – 31:47

    Talking with teenagers: shift from correcting to modeling wisdom

    1. SPSpeaker26:14

       My conversation, um, questions and problems relate to teenagers.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher26:22

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SPSpeaker26:22

       I'm a grandmother of a teenager, and I spend quite a bit of time with him, and I find him sometimes to be, um, like a know-it-all, uh, slightly disrespectful just with the tone and the attitude of our conversations. So I'm wondering if you could offer any advice on having conversations with teenagers, young teenagers, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, in that age bracket. I appreciate all the advice I get from your show, so thank you very much if you can address this type of problem.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher27:10

       Diane W, thank you for that question. How do you handle teenagers? I wanna call out this disclaimer for this. This is a grandmother-grandson dynamic, different than mother-son dynamic or grandmother to great-nephew or something like that. So this is a different dynamic. And you should-- You already know this with teenagers, and anybody who has a teenager know. I don't know if we're talking about thirteen or nineteen. Very different, very different teen ages. Of course, I mean, that doesn't surprise me. Of course, he's gonna be a know-it-all. He's a teenager. Like, uh, of course, he's going to sound a little bit more disrespectful or rude or, uh, grumpy, angsty. He's a teenager. So I want you to... I don't want to fan the flames of, "This is his personality forever. It's all gonna be terrible. We're gonna have to do something right now, and I'm gonna give you some phrases that you can use that's going to change the trajectory of his life." Nope. That's not what this... That's not what... I, I, I can't do that. I can't do that. What I can tell you, right, knowing that full well a teenager's a teenager, is how, how... If I can help you approach this a little bit differently, is coming at it from the standpoint of rather than when he says something like, "You don't understand. You don't understand, Grandma," maybe you're a nana. I had a meemaw. [laughs] You know, whatever it is. And instead of you going, "Yeah, I do understand," or saying to him, "No, you don't understand," y-you take the position of, "You're right. I don't understand. I don't understand. You're gonna know things that I don't know, and this is a world that I, I didn't grow up in. You're right. I don't, I don't understand." So you're kind of taking this more of a position of just choosing to love him for who he is and knowing, and I'm sure you pray a lot for him, of who he's going to be. And whether you know it or not, you being the model and a safe place for him to make the mistakes is probably gonna do more for him than anything else I could give you. For example, I could say, the next time he says something that's, you know, very know-it-all-y in some sense, you could respond with something as simple as, "Well, you know, I'd, I'd be careful to make judgments of knowing everything. I'd be careful before you do X, Y, and Z." Sure, you could try that. Is that really gonna change his behavior? Probably not. But you being there and loving him, that's gonna last a whole lot more. Now, if he's saying rude things to you- We already know that's a no-go. You don't do that to Nana. All right? So that, that has a lot more to do with what your enforcement of that would be, how you want to approach that. But what I heard you ask for is not exact phrases, but really more of the how do you, how do you deal with this of a teenager and, and this current generation of how do you approach that? I, I find that you're gonna want to enforce and cut it off and cut it down, and I don't know the situation with him parentally. But what I know in my life, my grandmother did very well, was allow me just a safe place, even for me to not be my best, right? Sometimes that's, that's what we need because our parents can just... They're kind of in the role, they're closer to us, and they are the one having to push and press and, and mold and enforce. As grandmothers, grandparents, you kind of just become a safe place for that. That doesn't mean we're accepting ugliness towards you. That's something different entirely. But the ability to caution, be a guide. Maybe

13. 31:47 – 33:13

    A practical phrase for teens: “You know what I’ve learned…”

    1. JFJefferson Fisher31:47

       you could try this. Here's a thought. The next time that he says something know-it-all-y, all right, I want you to ask the question of, "You know what I've learned? You know what I've learned?" And that he's gonna say, "What have you learned?" He's not gonna say, "No, I don't wanna hear it." He's gonna say, "What have you learned?" You go, "I've learned that X, Y, Z." Now you're, you're showing off of your life experience rather than directing him what he should do, what he should not do. So a lot of the times when you say, you know, "You're not... You, you don't know everything," that's one method versus, "You know what I've learned? The older I get, the less I really know. And sometimes I thought I used to know a lot, and then when I hit 50 or I hit 60 or whatever it is, I've learned you really... There's a lot you think you just, you know, but you really don't." And so you hear how it tu- it turns it without trying to be confrontational. So instead of the you, it says, "Let me share something that I've learned." That's where I'd go with that. I know you're a good grandmother, and the fact that you call and care, that speaks volumes. So continue to be the good grandmother that you are. Thanks for the call.

14. 33:13 – 36:42

    When silence doesn’t work: “vocalize your silence” and take the floor back

    1. SPSpeaker33:13

       Hello, my name is Joanne. I live in Atlanta.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher33:17

       Atlanta.

    3. SPSpeaker33:17

       And I have been following you for some time. I'm interested in the times when you say silence works best.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher33:27

       Hmm.

    5. SPSpeaker33:27

       If you've been insulted or if you've been interrupted-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher33:31

       Hmm

    7. SPSpeaker33:31

       ... that taking a breath and being silent and letting their comment just land. I've tried that. Unfortunately, whomever I'm communicating with will just keep talking. They will run right past my silence, not even noticing my silence, and I want to know what do I do in those situations? If I have either been insulted or I have been interrupted, how do I handle that when obviously a silence is not an option?

    8. JFJefferson Fisher34:09

       Now what do you do? Silence is definitely something that helps a lot, and I strongly encourage the use of it, especially when you're getting these, these negative, rude, disrespectful comments, letting that, those words land. I hear you saying, "Look, I've tried that," and this person just used that space and kept on talking. Not acceptable. We're not gonna do that. That means we're, we're dealing with somebody different. Silence is not a one-size-fits-all for every personality. Some of these people are just gonna continue to say this kind of ugly stuff. Here are some thoughts that I have and how I would recommend you handle that situation. Number one, you need to vocalize your silence. Now that sounds weird, right? What do you mean vocalize my silence? I'm supposed to be silent. It sounds like this. When they say that ugly thing, you get to say, "Stop. I, I need to let-- I need to sit with what you just said." If they continue to talk, you go, "I need to sit with what you just said. I'm still sitting with it." And you invoke that silence, okay? That silence is yours to have. You need that silence. If they do not give it to you, then that is the end of the conversation, okay? That, that... This is not a I'm just gonna sit there while they continue to railroad and just, um, make me walk on eggshells and I just get walked right over. Nope, we're not... That's not what this is. That's not what we do here, okay? So one, you vocalize your need for silence. That, that sounds like, "I need to sit with what you just said. No, I, I need, I need to let that just hang for a moment. I need... Give me five seconds. I need five seconds to really sit with what you just said." And then take that time. If they won't give it to you, that's where you get to be a lot more assertive in using their name, okay, saying their name. Maybe their name is Jefferson. I don't know. "Jefferson, I need five seconds to sit with what you just told me. If I can't take that time, then I need to exit this conversation." Okay? It, it-- That sounds harsh, but if they're belittling you, disrespecting you, yeah, that's also equally harsh, and it's not so that we have to play nice with them being ugly. That's not the game. We're not, we're not, we're not doing that. So vocalize, vocalize

15. 36:42 – 40:46

    Timeouts, assertive pacing, and the closing line: “I get to decide that”

    1. JFJefferson Fisher36:42

       your time. Say it out loud. Two, anytime you feel like they are pushing against that in some way, okay, th-th-they're not... I'm gonna use the word boundary. If, if they're pushing against this boundary of this need for time, then I need you to vocalize a timeout. Okay, that's more than just being in the conversation. That is saying, "I need to exit this conversation. I need to pause this conversation until I can actually regulate my system with what you just said." So do not be afraid to say, "I need to take a timeout." No, "I need a, I need a moment." Pause. Leave the room. End the phone call. "I'll, I'll, I will talk to you later. I, I need to sit with what that... And I need a timeout. You know what? I need, I need to take a step back from this conversation. I will, I will talk to you later." And if they push and push and push, this is where you get to be more assertive. "I said I will talk to you later." This is not where you get to go, "Well, listen, you know what? I, I am so tired of you," and you just amp up and amp up, and this is where you start to overexplain and start to, start to justify and go, "I'm sorry. You know what? I just can't..." Nope. None of that. Do you hear me? None of that. Be more... Crank up the assertiveness dial from about one to four and say, "I said I will talk to you later." You hear how when I slowed my words down, the more serious I sounded, right? The more I lowered my voice and I slowed it down, the more serious it sounded. Instead of the, "Look, I, I'll talk to you later, okay? I'll just talk to you later. I said I'll talk to you later." Take how believable that is from, "I said I will talk to you later." Which one sounds more believable? Which one sounds like, oh, okay, they really do sound like they did not like what I just said, and I have messed up royally? It's gonna be the second option. So slowing down your words, grounding yourself, and, hey, you aren't going to dictate what I am going to do and say. You don't get a choice in that. Three, I love this phrase: I get to decide that. Oh, I love this phrase so much. If they push back on you of, "Well, look, I mean, you're just making a big deal out of this," or, "Look, I s- I said I was just joking," or they're trying to dismiss that you're saying, "Hey, I need a timeout," and they're trying to minimize that because they're gonna feel bad about it, and the way they're gonna minimize is try to amp it up a little bit as if what you're doing is weak, as if what you're doing is unnecessary. That's, it's because they're afraid of what they just said, and they're trying not to feel worse about it. That's where shame starts to kick in, and they're gonna start blaming you rather than in that moment able to see what they've done. That's all the more evidence you need that time needs to enter into the premises. All right? This is where you get to say, "I get to decide that." No matter what they said, "You, you're just, you're just, y-you're blowing this up. You know, you're, you're being crazy. You're, you're, you're turning this into whatever. I get to decide that." Click. [chuckles] You're, you're done. All right? You walk. This is you- your mic drop moment, Diane, right there. That's for you. I get to decide that. And then you get to choose. That's the great part. You get to choose if you're gonna come into that conversation again. And I would be willing to bet that you give it a few hours, and that person who has made that comment and has been pushing is gonna be the exact same person, is going to be the exact same person who comes in and might even, with clarity now and regulation, see the error of their ways. Or

16. 40:46 – 42:36

    Sponsor break: Dose (cholesterol support)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher40:46

       they might not, but either way, they're gonna give you information that is data to collect rather than something that you're gonna use to make you feel less. Cool? Cool. What a good question. Thanks for that. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Dose. Now, I want to give you a heads-up. Dose is something that I've been taking probably for about six months, and it has made a positive improvement on my life, and this is why I am happy to share it with you. One of the things that now I'm at the age where I need to take it seriously is cholesterol. Yeah, cholesterol. My dad has high cholesterol. My grandfather has high cholesterol. It's just in the family, and I stay fit and active. I have a healthy weight, and yet I-- when I get my blood work back, I have high cholesterol. So what are some ways I can do to take care of myself? Well, one of those is Dose for cholesterol. It's a clinically backed cholesterol support supplement that targets triglycerides, LDL, HDL, and total cholesterol levels. And I only talk about products when there's something I like to use, especially when it's something that can affect health. It's a two-ounce shot that I typically take after a meal. Sometimes I just take it because I think it's something I want to make sure I try and take every day. It tastes like mango. It tastes great. It... Really good. They also have a Dose for liver, which is also good. In fact, I think it tastes even better. It's simple. It's just a two-ounce liquid shot, tastes like mango, no capsules, no powders. It's easy to stay consistent with, and it gets delivered right to your door. So if you want to take a more active role in your cholesterol health, I want you to go check it out. Go to dosedaily.co/JEFFERSON or use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first month subscription. That's dosedaily.co/JEFFERSON. Now, let's keep going. And here we go

17. 42:36 – 48:27

    High-conflict divorce mediation: mindset, needs vs wants, and long-view composure

    1. SPSpeaker42:36

       Hi, my name is Valeria. I'm calling from Sydney. Currently going through a mediation process with my ex-husband of eighteen years. It's been highly conflictive. He's become extremely controlling and has not had any involvement with our children up until now, where financial settlements are due to be finalized. My question is, in high f- conflict mediation meetings, we don't get to speak very often as he is not willing to have a regulated conversation without resorting to aggression. What is the best way to proceed during mediation we've got upcoming in two weeks? My question, I think, would be: What is the best approach from my side to get the best results and solutions through mediation without it becoming emotionally driven, given the amount of pain and anger that is coming from that side?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher43:48

       Valeria from Sydney, Australia, thank you for that question. The topic really dives into mediation. When I hear you saying you're dealing with a divorce proceeding, you have mediation, there are kids involved, high, high, high emotion. Every mediation that I've ever been in, there is a mediator, right? Whose job is to make sure that both sides don't get too heated. Their job is to go between two different rooms, two different parties, two different people. It doesn't have to be physically on the same location. It could be by z- v- virtually in some sense or, or even by telephone. But yeah, in mediation, most likely you're not gonna have what they call an opening statement to where both sides are in the same room, and you get to say something, and they get to say something. Most likely, that's not gonna happen because it's just gonna be too contentious. Instead, you'll be in a separate place with your attorney, and he'll be in a separate place with his attorney. And, uh, this is the mindset I want you to have because you asked the right question. You said, "What's the approach that I should have into this?" R- r- you know, not getting too... Making sure it, it doesn't explode on the emotion scale for you. Number one is what you're already doing, is that you're keeping your kids at the forefront, and it's this bigger question of want versus need. There are a lot of things you wish were different that you want, and it's at a place where it's not going to happen, and it's... there's been a decision that the marriage is not gonna continue in the form that it is, and so the, the marriage is gonna be dissolved. So it, it gets into now what do you need? And any time in mediation, every mediator will tell you this, their job is not to get you all what you want, and they're... at the same extent, their job is not to get everything that he wants. They have to find a way to compromise, meaning they have to find a number. They have to find the exact point on the spectrum or the plane that both sides will say yes to. That means both people are going to be disappointed. All right? That's, that's the way mediation goes. If one side is happy and one side is sad, it's a bad mediation. That's most likely rarely, if ever, going to happen. It's also true that it's probably not gonna be where one side's happy and the other side's really happy. It's going to be who can live with whatever is being asked and offered, and you have to answer the question yourself of, "Can I live with what is being presented?" So I want you to have that mindset of, "Is this something that I can deal with?" Number two, though you can't see it right now, okay, there's going to be an end to it. In six weeks, in six months, in two years, I want you to have this state of mind that how you will speak, how you present yourself, how you will behave and conduct this mediation and your part in it, I want you to be proud of who that person is two years from now, eight years from now, because time is gonna fly, and before you know it, all your worries about this are now gonna be in the re-re- rearview mirror, and you're gonna have other things, and you're gonna have joys, so much joys with your kids and the future life that you're going to have. And so keep in mind that there will be an end to this. There will be a light at the end of the tunnel. So do not think that going into the mediation, this is the sum of your life. Listen to me. This is just a paragraph on a page in the full chapter of your story. So don't get in this state of mind that this is the very end of the book right here. No. It sounds like it might be the end of one big chapter, eighteen years' worth of a chapter. True. Absolutely. But you know what? After this mediation's over, you get to turn the page on a whole new chapter that's probably gonna be thirty more years of amazing. All right? So keep that in mind. That's the approach I want you to have. Not that this is something that's supposed to feel good. It's not going to. What I want you to, to keep in mind is that it's something that is going to be good for you in your life. I'm somebody who truly believes that all things work for good, and I know that the same is true for you and your family, and you may not feel it right now. Most likely you won't feel it in the next month. But a few years from now, you're gonna look back, and I want you to be really, really proud of the person that you're going to be. Thanks for that call.

Episode duration: 48:29