How To Outgrow The Version Of Yourself That's Holding You Back ft. Hunter Hayes

1. 0:00 – 0:22

   Outgrowing your current self and balancing the “what if” mindset

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      The person who's trying to figure out right now whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now, what would you say to that person?

   2. HHHunter Hayes0:08

      You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:11

      To take the opportunity.

   4. HHHunter Hayes0:12

      Yeah. Take the opportunity.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:14

      Hunter, what if I have-

   6. HHHunter Hayes0:15

      If you're gonna play the game of what if, if you're gonna list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that can go right.

2. 0:22 – 1:32

   “Who’s at your table?” Choosing your inner circle as life changes

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:22

      The practical takeaways that I love to talk about is you said, "Hey, I'm gonna make some decisions for me right here. Rather than this committee thing, I'm gonna do something independent. Rather than, uh, feeling like life is happening to me, I'm gonna make some course corrections here." And there had to be some type, some point in your life where you say, "I, I need others at my table." So I, I love the metaphor, um, and this is something I apply for me, of filling the seats at my table.

   2. HHHunter Hayes0:55

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:55

      Like, everybody in life has a table.

   4. HHHunter Hayes0:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:58

      And I start with empty chairs. And really it's your, it could be your parents, your grandparents, whoever your guardians are, those are the people who are really the only ones at your table.

   6. HHHunter Hayes1:07

      Yeah.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher1:07

      And as, as you get older, you go to a different table, and then you kinda have to fill them again in kind of your 20s, and then you fill them again in your 30s. And I f- I find who are the people, 'cause I'm very selective with kinda who's mentally at my table, and I fi- I f- I feel like you have found this full circle moment or clarity of who are the people you want at your table.

3. 1:32 – 2:52

   Letting go of the institution: the scary shift when things start falling away

   1. HHHunter Hayes1:32

      That's ... Well, going back to the chapter of going away-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:37

      Yeah

   3. HHHunter Hayes1:38

      ... uh, that was that. Um, and God and the universe kinda did it for me.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher1:43

      No.

   5. HHHunter Hayes1:43

      There were a lot of things that needed to happen. There were a lot of changes that needed to happen.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher1:46

      Mm.

   7. HHHunter Hayes1:46

      Very scary, like I'm gonna leave an entire institution behind. And, like, as an artist, there are so many pieces. I've heard a few of, of the people that I look up to describe it as, like, you're the, you're the hub, and there's so many pieces that keep the wheel, it together.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

      Mm-hmm.

   9. HHHunter Hayes2:00

      And at the time, I needed to let go of a lot of things, and I wasn't ready to let go of any of those things. And so certain things just started kinda falling off naturally, you know?

   10. JFJefferson Fisher2:12

       Yeah.

   11. HHHunter Hayes2:12

       I remember-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher2:12

       For you.

   13. HHHunter Hayes2:13

       Yeah. I remember having a conversation with my, I think my agent at the time, and I was like, you know, spending more time in California, and I was kinda having a hard time telling him, like, "I think I'm gonna go there and be there."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher2:24

       Mm-hmm.

   15. HHHunter Hayes2:24

       Does it ... Because what I was trying to say was, "Does that scare you?"

   16. JFJefferson Fisher2:27

       Mm-hmm.

   17. HHHunter Hayes2:27

       And of course it didn't, but he was like, "Dude, you need to." He's like, "You should."

   18. JFJefferson Fisher2:31

       Yeah.

   19. HHHunter Hayes2:32

       He's like, he's, he's like, "I mean, it'd be great to get some new energy." And he was, he was excited about the idea, and I think that kinda, like, let me sit in it a little bit more. And then everyone else, you know, I talked to another member of my team. I was, like, trying to, like, you know, apologize for, like, this shift that I wanted to make. And he was like, "Well, you ... It's funny, 'cause I've noticed in life you tend to find what you're looking for."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher2:52

       Mm.

4. 2:52 – 6:09

   Trusting your lived expertise: when the youngest person in the room has to lead

   1. HHHunter Hayes2:52

      And he's like, "You are clearly looking for new energy and change and doing all those things." So I say that to say yes, but also, like, touching back on something else. I mean, the, like, uh, yes, picking the people at your table, this was my chance. I, I think there was one big shift that happened, and I made one phone call, um, to somebody in this room.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:12

      [laughs]

   3. HHHunter Hayes3:12

      And I was like, "Okay-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:13

      Not me

   5. HHHunter Hayes3:14

      ... here's what I'm doing." I was like, "I am, I have played by everyone else's rules." Because I think another downfall, if I can touch back on that-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:20

      Yeah, please

   7. HHHunter Hayes3:20

      ... um, we can, we can bullet point all these things so that people can [laughs] follow along to my, the way my brain works. But another downfall is, um, I was surrounded by people who have been doing this for longer than I have, and my tendency is to assume everyone knows more than me.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:37

      Mm.

   9. HHHunter Hayes3:37

      And in a lot of ways, yes, absolutely for the rest of my life, everyone will know more than me. I have so much to learn from everybody. And I h- I am constantly learning how to hold the truth of, "Yeah, but so do I."

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:50

       Yeah.

   11. HHHunter Hayes3:50

       And, like, the most important thing I think that I realized in, like, 2018-19 was, you know, I was having a hard time talking the label into a certain song or this, that, whatever. And I, it kind of ha- started happening when I recorded Invisible and put a song called Invisible out-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:05

       Mm-hmm

   13. HHHunter Hayes4:05

       ... uh, 'cause it was not, like, the big uptempo radio song, but it was something that I felt very called to. And luckily, like, my team around me knew how important this was, not only for people to understand me, but for me to create more of what I wanted so far as space for people to come and for me to play to-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:23

       Mm-hmm

   15. HHHunter Hayes4:23

       ... and sing to.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:24

       Mm-hmm.

   17. HHHunter Hayes4:24

       Um, space for the audience that I wanna sing with. Um, uh, the realization was I am fighting with people in a room who are all brilliant, but none of them have done any of the meet and greets that I've done.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher4:40

       Yeah.

   19. HHHunter Hayes4:40

       None of them have shaken the hands of the people that I've shaken hands with-

   20. JFJefferson Fisher4:43

       Yes

   21. HHHunter Hayes4:43

       ... you know, hugged, talked to, heard what, what everyone had. Like, our, our, our meet and greets, like, we're, we're constantly trying to figure out how to make more time-

   22. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

       Yeah

   23. HHHunter Hayes4:52

       ... because we have conversations in these lines.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher4:55

       Mm-hmm.

   25. HHHunter Hayes4:55

       And people share their story because of the way that they connect with music. And so I think that learning, that, that tipping point, I would say right around 2019-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher5:05

       Mm-hmm

   27. HHHunter Hayes5:06

       ... um, was a big one for me in learning to trust the gifts that I have or the experience that I have or the, uh, practice that I've put in, trust myself. Not in a I know everything, but in a I have to create a threshold where I know how to say, "Guys, you have to trust me on this."

   28. JFJefferson Fisher5:29

       Mm.

   29. HHHunter Hayes5:29

       You know what I mean?

   30. JFJefferson Fisher5:30

       Yeah.
5. 6:09 – 8:02

   Finding the line: gut checks, “flow,” and when to get in the backseat

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:09

      Where is the line for you of knowing, do I say, "You know what? Okay, guys. Yep, everybody else knows better than me,"

   2. HHHunter Hayes6:17

      Hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:18

      versus, "No, I'm gonna put my flag in the ground," and say, "No, this is something I really believe in." Is it that trust yourself? Like, what's the phrase that, that Hunter Hayes tells himself in that moment?

   4. HHHunter Hayes6:29

      That's a great question. Um, I think it's different based on each case.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:34

      Yeah.

   6. HHHunter Hayes6:34

      You know? 'Cause, like, the first thing that comes up is we were trying to figure out how, how to do a gig literally less than a week ago, and I was like, "I don't, I'm not feeling flow here. Like, I really, I would love to make this happen, but I'm not feeling the flow."

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:46

      Yeah.

   8. HHHunter Hayes6:46

      And I'm hearing everybody tell me, "Well, this is why you should do it. This is probably why we should consider it." And, um, and I was just like, "I, I'm just, I'm not feeling it."

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:53

      Yeah.

   10. HHHunter Hayes6:54

       And I got, I got, um, there was sort of two times where I was like, "I, I hear it, I get it, and I'm just not feeling the flow."

   11. JFJefferson Fisher7:03

       Yeah.

   12. HHHunter Hayes7:03

       You know? And the third time, a new detail kind of emerged and I was like, "There it is."

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:09

       There it is.

   14. HHHunter Hayes7:09

       "There's the purpose."

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:10

       Okay.

   16. HHHunter Hayes7:10

       "I see the purpose now, and I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna sit in the backseat."

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. HHHunter Hayes7:16

       'Cause now this is, there's something outside of what I know.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher7:20

       Mm-hmm.

   20. HHHunter Hayes7:20

       And I can f- I, I see that, and I'm gonna trust everyone around me to help me pull this off.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher7:25

       Is there a phrase that you kind of like, even a word that kinda comes to mind where you think, is it just a gut feeling?

   22. HHHunter Hayes7:34

       Well, I'd love to say it's a gut feeling and, and that case is a, I use that as an example because-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher7:38

       Right

   24. HHHunter Hayes7:38

       ... I'm so convinced. You know, the first two times that we had this conversation I was like, "I'm, I, I, everyone is telling me why this should happen, and I'm feeling like this maybe shouldn't."

   25. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

       You need to feel s- you need to feel like you can see it, right? That, that sense of safety of, like... Well, you keep bringing the word flow in.

   26. HHHunter Hayes7:53

       Yeah. That's a f- that's a word.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher7:55

       No, that, I love that word. Is that a word you've always used, or a, a new word that you've integrated into yourself?

6. 8:02 – 10:47

   Flow state onstage vs offstage: being carried vs carrying

   1. HHHunter Hayes8:02

      Well, I, the, I'm learning what it means outside of the stage because when I'm on stage I can tell you when I'm in flow.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:08

      Yeah.

   3. HHHunter Hayes8:08

      There's something that ha- because you have no choice. [laughs]

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:11

      [laughs] That's true.

   5. HHHunter Hayes8:12

      There's no, there's no walking away.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher8:13

      Right.

   7. HHHunter Hayes8:13

      Uh, uh, you know, w- whether it be 50 people watching or 50,000 people watching-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher8:18

      Yeah

   9. HHHunter Hayes8:18

      ... everyone can feel it.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher8:20

       Right.

   11. HHHunter Hayes8:20

       That's the ultimate test of am I, am I here?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher8:22

       Yeah.

   13. HHHunter Hayes8:23

       Or am I here?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher8:24

       Yeah.

   15. HHHunter Hayes8:24

       You know what I mean?

   16. JFJefferson Fisher8:25

       Right.

   17. HHHunter Hayes8:25

       Everyone can tell. I can smile. I can say all the things. I, I know the difference between when an audience knows... An audience knows when I'm in it, and an audience knows when I'm not.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher8:34

       When you're not, yeah.

   19. HHHunter Hayes8:35

       And so it's the ultimate, like, exercise in you're either checking in or you're checking out.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher8:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. HHHunter Hayes8:39

       You know? So that is where I, I go back to with flow state. I, when the band and I... You know, even if it's something that's, like, s- really super well arranged, I can tell when we're all just in it.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher8:49

       Mm-hmm.

   23. HHHunter Hayes8:50

       You know? And I can tell when we're all kinda figuring it out, you know?

   24. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       Yeah.

   25. HHHunter Hayes8:54

       Um, and so I, I think that's my guide.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher8:57

       That's a good one.

   27. HHHunter Hayes8:58

       You know what I mean? 'Cause it feels like it's very... It, it's, it's not improv per se 'cause there's a lot of structure in what we do.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher9:04

       Yeah.

   29. HHHunter Hayes9:05

       But there's something to the, like, I feel like I'm being carried-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher9:09

       Yeah
7. 10:47 – 15:33

   Fifteen years of self-work: therapy, fear of loss, and identity beyond the artist

   1. HHHunter Hayes10:47

      I saw my first therapist, which I don't know if it's considered a co- like, looking back I have a lot of questions.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher10:53

      [laughs]

   3. HHHunter Hayes10:54

      Because, uh, it was set up, it was, it was someone who worked at... It was giving credit.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher11:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. HHHunter Hayes11:00

      Uh, there was a, a company that I worked with-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher11:02

      Mm-hmm

   7. HHHunter Hayes11:03

      ... uh, that handled finances.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher11:04

      Mm-hmm.

   9. HHHunter Hayes11:05

      And for somebody like me, that's a very scary, still a very scary, like, topic.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher11:09

       Mm-hmm. Sure.

   11. HHHunter Hayes11:10

       Because when something doesn't go well, it's on your shoulders to figure out.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

       Right.

   13. HHHunter Hayes11:13

       Like, it, you know, it's your name. [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher11:17

       For sure.

   15. HHHunter Hayes11:17

       And so, and, uh, yeah, I have a lot of stuff around that. That's a different conversation, but, um, there was somebody that they had in-house to sort of help, I, I think help artist/help the people working on it/help both sometimes. Um, but that person was actually, like, present in a lot of my meetings with them-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher11:38

       Mm-hmm

   17. HHHunter Hayes11:38

       ... but also I had time to work with him separately.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher11:40

       Mm-hmm.

   19. HHHunter Hayes11:41

       And so it started with just, like, how do I calm down on the road? 'Cause I was so high-strung.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher11:45

       Mm-hmm.

   21. HHHunter Hayes11:45

       Still am. Um, but, like, you can imagine being 18, 19 and, like, all of your dreams are sitting right in front of you, and you're walking into one opportunity after another. That's just, like, f- you're flowing.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher12:00

       Yeah.

   23. HHHunter Hayes12:00

       Right? But at the time there was a lot of fear around, well- You know, how many ways can I screw this up?

   24. JFJefferson Fisher12:07

       Yeah.

   25. HHHunter Hayes12:07

       You know? Um, so that was my first person that I worked with, and then I worked with a, a therapist separately. Um, and we started to understand different things. I started to understand a little bit more of the OCD tendencies-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher12:19

       Mm-hmm

   27. HHHunter Hayes12:20

       ... which that was a whole thing. Um, and then, you know, like she was the first person that said, "Okay, what if it all goes away tomorrow?"

   28. JFJefferson Fisher12:28

       Yeah.

   29. HHHunter Hayes12:28

       'Cause that was the thing I was so s- afraid of, you know? And just like-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher12:31

       Like, okay, what if the thing you're most afraid of happens?
8. 15:33 – 17:26

   Shared human fears and turning them into connection through art

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:33

      is, um, you know, we all come in thinking we're terminally unique, right? Nobody can relate to anything that's happening. This is my own special one, I'm a one case wonder right here. And then you re- really get to learn, hold up, it's all just the same fear in different flavors, you know, of what am I if I'm not this?

   2. HHHunter Hayes15:55

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher15:55

      Who am I if I'm not this? Will they still stick around? Will they still, will they leave? If they know the worst things about me, will they, will they turn around and run?

   4. HHHunter Hayes16:06

      Mm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher16:06

      And I think that is, um, a deeply rooted fear in a lot of people, myself included, of, you know, what, what happens. And what artists like yourself get to do is you turn conversations into songs.

   6. HHHunter Hayes16:23

      Mm.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher16:23

      Right? And you, what you said at the very beginning of this, which I thought was beautiful, is how do I create a song and then make sure that you can find yourself in it?

   8. HHHunter Hayes16:30

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher16:30

      Like, see yourself, make, make enough room for you.

   10. HHHunter Hayes16:33

       Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher16:33

       Where my mind goes, "Well, that's conversations."

   12. HHHunter Hayes16:36

       Yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher16:36

       Right? How, how do I make sure that I have a conversation that I can say, "I want you to see yourself in this conversation with me, where we, we can have this moment and, and create something that we can really walk away with?" In every conversation, I mean, in, in, in my short time with you, I'm gonna walk away with something.

   14. HHHunter Hayes16:50

       Mm.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher16:51

       And I think if everybody takes that moment to ask themselves, you know, "What am I walking away from?" Or, "What am I letting go of?" You know, maybe I'm not walking away with anything. [laughs] You know, maybe I'm leaving something-

   16. HHHunter Hayes17:02

       Yeah

   17. JFJefferson Fisher17:02

       ... uh, where it needs to be in a conversation. I think that's, that helps w- round people out so much better. So having that, hear you say, you know what, I had to ask some of these big questions. Who am I if I'm not the Hunter Hayes I hear on the radio?

   18. HHHunter Hayes17:17

       Yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher17:17

       Has to be a question where you gotta go to some pretty deep places, but it sounds like you've come from a lot of that.

   20. HHHunter Hayes17:25

       Mm.

9. 17:26 – 22:16

   Advice for growth: outgrowing yourself and playing “what if” on both teams

   1. JFJefferson Fisher17:26

      I do wanna ask some questions for us to kinda think of another person in the conversation. And this is a chance that I would love if we take some of the things that you've learned-

   2. HHHunter Hayes17:40

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher17:40

      ... over the last two years and say, "How, how can we give that person advice?"

   4. HHHunter Hayes17:47

      Mm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher17:48

      And with all self, you know, deprecating aside-

   6. HHHunter Hayes17:55

      Okay

   7. JFJefferson Fisher17:55

      ... 'cause we don't know, we know we don't know, and, uh, we all have probably some level of OCD or ADHD or something. I got my own things.

   8. HHHunter Hayes18:06

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher18:06

      You know? Um, the person who's trying to figure out right now Whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now.

   10. HHHunter Hayes18:16

       Mm.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher18:18

       What would you say to that person?

   12. HHHunter Hayes18:22

       Uh, you kind of always need to... You, you, you always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher18:27

       To take the opportunity.

   14. HHHunter Hayes18:29

       Yeah. Take the opportunity. Yeah.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher18:31

       And for the person who's saying the same thing of that fear of, "Well, yeah, but what if?" Hunter, what if I have-

   16. HHHunter Hayes18:38

       If you're gonna play the game of what if and you, uh, then you have to play it b- for both sides of the team. You have to-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher18:44

       Mm.

   18. HHHunter Hayes18:45

       If you're gonna list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that can go right.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

       Give-

   20. HHHunter Hayes18:48

       What if-

   21. JFJefferson Fisher18:48

       Give the cons the same weight as the pros.

   22. HHHunter Hayes18:51

       Yeah. If for everything that you say that scares the shit... Can I say this?

   23. JFJefferson Fisher18:55

       Sure.

   24. HHHunter Hayes18:55

       Scares the shit out of you.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher18:56

       Yeah.

   26. HHHunter Hayes18:56

       Um, w- also name the things that you would be absolutely blown away if just everything went right.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher19:03

       Right.

   28. HHHunter Hayes19:03

       You know? What if, what if I lose my job? What if that's what... Uh, what if that freedom is what allows me to-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher19:11

       Yeah

   30. HHHunter Hayes19:12

       ... accept an opportunity that I otherwise wouldn't have taken?
10. 22:16 – 24:14

    Resistance as a signal: the “hill climb” that led to breaking patterns

    1. JFJefferson Fisher22:16

       for 10% off site-wide. Plus, you get a 100-day risk-free trial with free shipping and returns. That sounds like check, check, check. Fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code Jefferson, and now let's keep going. I know we talked about it, but I do want, I wanna put it in a different shell, like a different package. How did you know? Like, what was the gut instinct you felt that said, "Hey, I need to interrupt this cycle and just give it some space for a bit"?

    2. HHHunter Hayes22:49

       It was just one too many things where I felt like I was climbing up a hill.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher22:53

       Say more.

    4. HHHunter Hayes22:53

       I was... Well, there was so much flow in the creative. There was so much, like, I was in my, you know, at the time I had a house with a basement, and I was working in my basement a lot with no sunlight, with, with, with all the things that nature gives you.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher23:05

       Mm-hmm.

    6. HHHunter Hayes23:05

       I was working against the grain. I was in a, a dark room in the basement of my house, and I was more creative than I'd ever been. I was feeling a lot.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher23:11

       Mm-hmm.

    8. HHHunter Hayes23:11

       And I was putting it in to the work. I was, I was-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher23:14

       Mm

    10. HHHunter Hayes23:14

        ... making songs. There was no rules. Nothing had to be anything.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher23:16

        Mm-hmm.

    12. HHHunter Hayes23:16

        I was working in secret-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher23:17

        Yeah

    14. HHHunter Hayes23:18

        ... you know, on an album that no one had to hear.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher23:19

        Mm.

    16. HHHunter Hayes23:19

        And that was another thing, like, Wild Blue was an album that I made, and it was, it w- it was my rebellious way of-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher23:26

        Yeah, yeah

    18. HHHunter Hayes23:27

        ... being, being brave by myself.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher23:29

        Mm-hmm.

    20. HHHunter Hayes23:29

        And I was like, "If I love this when it's done, it'll see the light of day. It'll happen if it's supposed to happen." Um, and I was turning in a lot of songs. I mean, hundreds of songs, um, a year. I was experiencing a lot of feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher23:50

        Mm.

    22. HHHunter Hayes23:50

        Um, I think looking back, I think I might have had a lot of opportunities to say, "Trust me," but I didn't know how to do that yet.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher23:58

        You said trust me, meaning trust-

    24. HHHunter Hayes23:59

        Me.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher23:59

        Yeah.

    26. HHHunter Hayes24:00

        Yeah.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher24:00

        Trust myself.

    28. HHHunter Hayes24:00

        Yeah, yeah. I, I trust myself. I believe in this.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher24:03

        Yeah.

    30. HHHunter Hayes24:04

        Um, and I don't think I knew how to do that. I think this was, I think it was exactly what it was supposed to be, and that it was a time that was designed to teach me that.
11. 24:14 – 26:45

    ‘Dear God’ breaks the rules: the risky song that proved the point

    1. HHHunter Hayes24:14

       Um, but I just noticed and I felt a lot of resistance, um- Where I, yeah, that's the best way I can say it. I had a beautiful opportunity-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher24:28

       Mm-hmm

    3. HHHunter Hayes24:29

       ... to say, "Guys, I get it. I get it. Everybody's afraid. There's a lot happening. I know that this probably doesn't sink in just yet. Let's just try it." And, like, by the grace of God, there's something beautiful that happened during that time, is I turned in Dear God.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher24:46

       Yeah.

    5. HHHunter Hayes24:46

       And Dear God's a song that breaks all the rules. Uh, that is, I talk about that song a lot, and I've said it a lot, but, you know.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher24:53

       I still wanna hear it. Yeah.

    7. HHHunter Hayes24:53

       It was everything I wasn't supposed to write about.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher24:56

       Mm-hmm.

    9. HHHunter Hayes24:56

       It was all the, like, the kind of production that I didn't feel like was ever gonna work.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher25:00

        Wasn't it, like, it's still a top 25, like, top... It was a top-

    11. HHHunter Hayes25:03

        It's one of my top streaming songs.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher25:04

        Yeah, that's crazy.

    13. HHHunter Hayes25:05

        It was everything I wasn't supposed to do.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher25:06

        Mm-hmm.

    15. HHHunter Hayes25:07

        And my A&R person at the label was like, "Oh my God," and I was like, "What?" [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher25:12

        [laughs]

    17. HHHunter Hayes25:12

        And he was like, "No, dude." He was like, "This, this mean... I don't know what we do with this, but this means something."

    18. JFJefferson Fisher25:16

        Mm-hmm.

    19. HHHunter Hayes25:17

        And it started circling around the label, and the label was like, everyone was talking to me about this song, and I was like, "You're not supposed to hear that." [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher25:23

        Right.

    21. HHHunter Hayes25:23

        You know what I mean? Like-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher25:24

        Mm-hmm

    23. HHHunter Hayes25:24

        ... um, and it was, it was, it definitely felt like God just kind of ripping it out of my hands and going, "This is taking you too long. We're just gonna do this." [laughs]

    24. JFJefferson Fisher25:31

        Yeah.

    25. HHHunter Hayes25:31

        Um, and we, you know, we didn't follow traditional promotion playbook for that song.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher25:37

        It did break all the rules. Yeah.

    27. HHHunter Hayes25:38

        And it broke all the rules, man. It's, like, still one of my top streaming songs from that album.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher25:42

        Yeah.

    29. HHHunter Hayes25:42

        For all, of all of my discography.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher25:45

        Wow.
12. 26:45 – 31:46

    How the song was written: an “angry prayer,” deep questions, and a final surrender

    1. HHHunter Hayes26:45

       I sat down with, uh, I'm a big fan of Andy Grammer.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher26:48

       Mm.

    3. HHHunter Hayes26:48

       Uh, we sat down for his podcast, uh, The Good Parts. There's a lot of conversation about faith and religion.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher26:53

       Yeah.

    5. HHHunter Hayes26:54

       And we sort of unpacked a lot of things that I was trying to figure out at the time. Um, and I had it, just so happened, had a title. The deal was, uh, Andy was coming, it was late at night. He was coming in to do the podcast, and I was like, "If you're down to stay for, like, an hour, I'd love to write." And he was like, "Deal, I'm in." 'Cause we've been talking about it for years. We do the podcast, which is beautiful because in every writing room I feel like we talk for 45 minutes about the topic.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher27:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. HHHunter Hayes27:21

       And then the song finds its way into the room once we've opened our doors.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher27:25

       Yeah.

    9. HHHunter Hayes27:25

       You know? It's-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher27:26

        Say that again for me one more time.

    11. HHHunter Hayes27:28

        Every room that I get into with co-writers-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher27:31

        Uh-huh

    13. HHHunter Hayes27:32

        ... I always bring ideas in. Sometimes they land. Sometimes we can all, we all know what we're talking about.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher27:37

        Yeah.

    15. HHHunter Hayes27:38

        Sometimes I haven't communicated it or I'm not clear on it or, or everybody else might be on a different page. Um, sometimes the title will change. The idea will-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher27:46

        Mm

    17. HHHunter Hayes27:46

        ... totally shift. But the, I would call it 30 to 45 minutes of conversation that happen-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher27:51

        Mm-hmm

    19. HHHunter Hayes27:51

        ... for all of us to sort of, like, land.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher27:54

        Yeah.

    21. HHHunter Hayes27:55

        It, you know, we, we pull the parachutes and we start floating down to the earth, and then when we land around it, the song is all, it's just there, and it happens quickly. It happens within 30 minutes to 90 minutes max.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher28:06

        That's awesome.

    23. HHHunter Hayes28:06

        Right? Um, so the beautiful part about this song, Dear God, is the 45 minutes of conversation is in the world. Like, you can go listen to the whole thing. It's on a podcast, right?

    24. JFJefferson Fisher28:15

        Mm-hmm.

    25. HHHunter Hayes28:15

        So we had this conversation. I had this idea that I wanted to write with Andy, um, because of the music that he makes and his messages and the way that he represents so many thoughts and feelings, and it was called Dear God. And I was like, "I kinda need to write an angry prayer," 'cause on every album I've had a, a song about faith, and on this album, I'm, I'm, I'm wrestling with a lot of things.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher28:37

        Yeah.

    27. HHHunter Hayes28:37

        And so I wanna honor that and do that. And at the end of the song, at the end of the album, there's another prayer. But, um, he just started pacing around the room and just singing, like, you know, I had, I was noodling with all these, like, verse things, you know, "It's 3:00 in the morning, just me and my demons at war again, so I'm calling in. Are you listening?" You know, and Andy starts pacing the room and he just starts singing, "Why does my life have to hurt so much?" You know?

    28. JFJefferson Fisher29:00

        Mm-hmm.

    29. HHHunter Hayes29:00

        And we just start going with all these questions, and it's just a song about questions. And the, the end of the chorus is, "Dear God, are you sure that you don't mess up?" Meaning me, right?

    30. JFJefferson Fisher29:08

        Yeah.
13. 31:46 – 45:18

    ADHD, systems, and renegotiating expectations: ‘I can’t do it that way’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher31:46

       So we've, we've talked about, you know, the, the version of yourself, how do you know when you should outgrow something. Uh, we talked about, you know, people kind of being around your table. Are there things that you think because... 'Cause you've, you've, you've said this with me, and I know you've, you've talked about it of with, as somebody who has, uh, ADHD, like, do you find that that affects your ability to like... There are people out there who I know, and I'm related to many, uh, of have ADHD and they go, "But yeah, I have a really hard time with either conversation or..." I- but I've never met anybody who songwrites-

    2. HHHunter Hayes32:25

       Mm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher32:25

       ... as an artist, and do you find that that's a help or a hindrance, or how, how have you found a way to-

    4. HHHunter Hayes32:31

       I'd be willing to bet you have.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher32:32

       Yeah, I'm sure I have.

    6. HHHunter Hayes32:33

       Which is the wild part. You know what I mean?

    7. JFJefferson Fisher32:34

       Yeah.

    8. HHHunter Hayes32:34

       Like, uh, so I, I learned a lot about my brain this year, and I'm in the process of learning more, um, and the way that it works. And I think it was, it gave me permission to start seeing ways that I frustrate myself as, um... I, I relate a lot of things to general aviation 'cause I wanna get my pilot's license and there's a lot of lessons in that. And, you know, some planes are capable of, of reaching a certain, let's say like a certain speed.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher33:07

       Yeah.

    10. HHHunter Hayes33:07

        But they really operate just, you know, somewhere else.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher33:10

        Right.

    12. HHHunter Hayes33:10

        Uh, so your expectation could be, "Well, I'll get from this point to this point in this time." And it's like, well, there's also wind.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher33:17

        Yeah. [laughs]

    14. HHHunter Hayes33:17

        Even if-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher33:18

        Yeah

    16. HHHunter Hayes33:18

        ... you're doing everything right.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher33:20

        There's also something called weather.

    18. HHHunter Hayes33:21

        Yeah.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher33:21

        [laughs]

    20. HHHunter Hayes33:21

        There's so much out of your control, and you're just part of it.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher33:24

        Yeah.

    22. HHHunter Hayes33:24

        Like, you, you've got a machine, and if you know how to operate it-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher33:27

        Great

    24. HHHunter Hayes33:27

        ... you know, awesome. And every time you go up, you are, you are working with the wind.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher33:34

        Yeah.

    26. HHHunter Hayes33:34

        Um, and I think that, like, understanding a little bit more, and again, very much in the middle of the process of understanding more about how my brain works, I've gone from s- being frustrated with certain ways that it works to, uh, I wouldn't say loving all of it, but, like, certainly trying to honor it-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher33:51

        Mm-hmm

    28. HHHunter Hayes33:52

        ... and recognize, "Okay, I'm not crazy. It really, it, it doesn't work that way, so what do I have to do? What do I have to change? What systems do I have to put in place?"

    29. JFJefferson Fisher34:01

        Yeah.

    30. HHHunter Hayes34:01

        Um, what things do I have to just kind of honor long enough for me to go, "No, I like the way that this works now." And I, I, I, I think some of the shifts that I've made this year, changes that I've made this year, um, have allowed me to, uh, experience more flow so that I can trust myself in saying, "I totally hear you."
14. 45:18 – 49:49

    Music as journaling and healing: production details, neurofeedback, and meaning-making

    1. HHHunter Hayes45:18

       Um, I journal, but I, I also kind of think that a lot of my, like, expression-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher45:25

       Mm

    3. HHHunter Hayes45:25

       ... or, like, my version of journaling is, is working on music. Um, and then, like-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher45:30

       That's true

    5. HHHunter Hayes45:30

       ... in production, for instance. Um, you know, I think sometimes the image of recording a song is we come into a place like this-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher45:37

       Yeah

    7. HHHunter Hayes45:38

       ... we hit record, and, you know, and it happens in a couple of l- you know, takes. But for me, I sit with a song for hours, hundreds of hours, trying to learn what it's trying to tell me. So there's a part of it that is kind of accidentally therapeutic in that, um, so much of what I love about production is I'll record a part on an acoustic guitar, and I'll just sit with it. It'll bother me, 'cause it's just, it feels too aggressive. It feels too angry. It doesn't feel soft. Or, like, a, a great example is there's a song on, on, on... Well, there's, "Around the Sun" on Evergreen is a great example.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher46:12

       Yeah, the last one, yeah.

    9. HHHunter Hayes46:13

       Um, that was technically the first song that I finished for the album. Um, and it, it takes a trip. The, the riff is played very, uh, the riff is, the first version of the riff that you hear is actually heavily manipulated from the day that I wrote the song-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher46:28

        Hmm

    11. HHHunter Hayes46:29

        ... to show sometimes an idea doesn't feel the way that it's supposed to right away. And then as you go through the song, it's like the band starts to learn the riff, and it's played more confidently, and all of a sudden it's on a 12-string guitar, and it's like, oh, that's the way it's supposed to be heard. And then an electric guitar kicks everybody out-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher46:45

        Right

    13. HHHunter Hayes46:45

        ... and starts, plays the solo. And for me, that's communication. That's me communicating, like, this is my process of learning this lesson. I wrote the song, I learned the song, and now I'm learning what the song wants me to know moving forward. And then towards the end, um, you know, there's like four different kick samples that come in.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher47:03

        Yeah.

    15. HHHunter Hayes47:03

        There's a, there's a real drummer playing, but there's also, like, a lot of just energy, and I wanted it to feel like a dance song by the end of it.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher47:10

        Right.

    17. HHHunter Hayes47:10

        It's kinda subtle.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher47:11

        Mm-hmm.

    19. HHHunter Hayes47:11

        That's the goal. But, like, and even the bass part is not just like a bass part. It's like it's its own riff, because I wanted the song to grow in its own confidence as it goes.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher47:20

        There we go.

    21. HHHunter Hayes47:20

        Right? So that was therapy for me. That was four days, you know, I, I... Another thing I really am a big fan of is neural feedback. Um, the, uh, the, um, I don't k- know how else to refer to it, but I've done a lot of that, and that's al- actually allowed me to put a lot of the lessons that I've learned from coaching or therapy into practice.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher47:37

        Tell me what that is for people.

    23. HHHunter Hayes47:39

        It's, um-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher47:40

        Neural feedback

    25. HHHunter Hayes47:40

        ... neural feedback, it sends, uh, I'm gonna destroy my explanation of this.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher47:46

        It's okay. We're just, we're just gonna admit that it's gonna butcher it-

    27. HHHunter Hayes47:48

        Yeah

    28. JFJefferson Fisher47:48

        ... but we won't care.

    29. HHHunter Hayes47:49

        Um, but essentially, as, uh, patterns get formed in the brain-

    30. JFJefferson Fisher47:53

        Mm-hmm
15. 49:49 – 54:05

    Mentorship, faith, and conversational flow—then closing reflections on musicianship

    1. HHHunter Hayes49:49

       So true. Um, one of my goals this year was to sit down with mentors more often.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher49:53

       Yeah.

    3. HHHunter Hayes49:54

       'Cause I, I have the, the bad habit of saying, "Oh, well, they, they have, they have more important things to do," you know? Um, and I've been challenging myself with, like, reaching out to people and going like, "Hey, I want breakfast. [laughs] I wanna sit with you."

    4. JFJefferson Fisher50:05

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. HHHunter Hayes50:05

       Uh, and one of the first ones that I, I did, um, was beautiful, because I, I was like-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher50:10

       Mm

    7. HHHunter Hayes50:11

       ... in my car trying to pre-pave and, you know, uh, Virgo myself into a conversation.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher50:16

       [laughs]

    9. HHHunter Hayes50:16

       Where I was like, "This is... What, what is my goal? What do I want from this?"

    10. JFJefferson Fisher50:19

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on.

    11. HHHunter Hayes50:19

        And I just heard God just yell just like, "You need to chill out."

    12. JFJefferson Fisher50:22

        Yeah.

    13. HHHunter Hayes50:23

        "You need to just listen."

    14. JFJefferson Fisher50:24

        You talk to God a lot?

    15. HHHunter Hayes50:25

        Um, yeah. Uh, it's very non, uh, I, I, I say it's unconventional. Um, it's quite conversational [laughs] throughout the day.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher50:32

        I think He'd like that. Yeah, yeah.

    17. HHHunter Hayes50:33

        Um, because I, I, like, I'm strongest in my faith right now than I've ever been. Like, religion's a different conversation. I talk to God a lot in-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher50:41

        Yeah

    19. HHHunter Hayes50:41

        ... sort of random moments. Um, and I feel like d- I get spoken to a lot. [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher50:47

        Yes.

    21. HHHunter Hayes50:48

        And in, like, learning how to write music, I think I've, uh, I think that's, so much of that is tapping into what's happening, um, outside of here.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher50:59

        Yeah.

    23. HHHunter Hayes50:59

        Does that make sense?

    24. JFJefferson Fisher51:00

        Oh, it does, because that makes me get really excited. It makes me think of the, just the whole idea of not just what is this conversation trying to tell me. God, what are you trying to tell me? Like, what, what is... Exactly when you talk about flow state.

    25. HHHunter Hayes51:13

        Mm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher51:13

        Like, how do I know that I'm in, uh, the flow of all things-

    27. HHHunter Hayes51:17

        Yeah

    28. JFJefferson Fisher51:18

        ... around me?

    29. HHHunter Hayes51:18

        Yeah.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher51:19

        Um, w- how am I, how do I know I'm connected in all things? So I, I think we kinda answered it right there of, yeah, a conversation can absolutely be that way. 'Cause it's, you know when you're, you're in the flow of conversation and when you're not, when a conversation's going well and when it's not.

Episode duration: 54:05