The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe #1 Communication Mistake Destroying Relationships Today | Jefferson Fisher
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 15,546 words- 0:00 – 1:00
Attorney-tested communication tools that work in everyday life
- JFJefferson Fisher
As an attorney, I've learned a few things about how to communicate with people, especially people that don't agree with me. So today, I'm gonna give you three top-secret, powerful, simple tools that you can use today instantly to improve your communication. Now, I know probably you're thinking, "Hey, look, I don't know if this episode is for me, Jefferson. I'm not an attorney. I don't know legal things. I don't know how you guys communicate." Get rid of that idea. There are plenty of people that go to law school that aren't good communicators. I mean, they're b- that's just... That g- that goes in any profession that you can think of. Just because you go to law school does not tie into good communication skills. Now, litigation, on the other hand, where you are representing one party and somebody's representing another, and you are in the courtroom, that's very different. So let me tell you some s- things that I have learned as an attorney that is going to help you day to day. How can you better communicate and argue like an attorney? You ready? Number one, turn more of your buts into
- 1:00 – 4:03
Tool #1: Replace “but” with “and” to stop shutting people down
- JFJefferson Fisher
ands. More of your buts into ands. I want you to think right now, wherever you are, maybe you're listening at your office, maybe you're walking, running. Think about email in particular. We get this kind of framework in sentencing all the time. You say, "I like this," or, "I think this, but..." Have you ever had somebody compliment you and kinda draw it out and you're waiting for the but? "Hey, I really like it. I, I think this is really cool, uh, but it's not for me." It is the separator of many things, and it hurts your dialogue. And as an attorney, I have learned this technique for many years because of depositions. When I'm cross-examining a witness, I want them to be giving the information that I need, and if I start to use the word but, I'm instantly putting up walls between them. It's the same way if, if you said something and I go, "But, but what about..." You see I'm not even accepting your point of view when you say that? I'm just going, "But, but what about... But him. But he did this. But what about this? What do you think about this?" You're putting up walls. So let me give you some examples of this. Think of, um, let's say there's somebody who says, "Yeah, I, I really like this, but it's not for me." You just deleted everything. But has the tendency of deleting anything that comes before it. And builds onto it. H- this is a very common scenario: "I love you, but this isn't working for me." Or, I mean, maybe you're in a relationship right now and, or you've been through a breakup, and they say, "Well, I love you, but..." It deletes everything. "I love you, and I need to tell you this isn't working for me." You hear the difference? You hear the difference in how more assertive that is, how more grounded that is? Here are some other examples. Somebody who goes, "I hear what you're saying, but I disagree." Instead, it's, "I hear what you're saying, and I see things differently." You hear that? Big difference. Here's another one: "I'm sorry I did that, but it wasn't my intent." Remove the but, replace it with and. "I'm sorry I did that, and that wasn't my intent." Now, huge difference. You can already hear that. So start thinking in your emails how you're gonna replace that, how you're gonna move that, 'cause it's gonna increase your communication skills tenfold. And every day, for my depositions, I might be asking a witness... I've seen people ask witnesses if I say... They give me an answer and I say, "Well, y- yeah, I hear you say that, but my question is more X." And they immediately clam up. If I were to say, "No, I, I appreciate you, you telling me that, uh, but what I'm really trying to get at is..." They clam up because they goes, "Oh, that, what I'm telling you doesn't matter. You don't really want... You don't want what I give. Oh, excuse me. I, I guess what I just said
- 4:03 – 7:05
Tool #2: Stop fighting the specifics—go macro and agree at the general level
- JFJefferson Fisher
doesn't matter at all to you." And so it puts up a wall. If you want to level up your communication, listen to me. You need to switch your buts and replace them with ands. I promise you, it is gonna be a game changer for your communication if you're willing to do it. You're gonna start catching it all the time, and it's gonna be a lot better for you. Number two, stop arguing over the specific and start going to the general, especially when things start to get heated. I get all the time where somebody, um, is saying something to me that I disagree with wholeheartedly, and it's very tempting to start getting into the minutiae of it and start trying to pick it apart. That doesn't do any good. You know this. Somebody's telling something. Let's say your grandmother is telling you how you should be raising your child, or your grandfather's telling you how you should vote, or you're getting into an argument with parents or somebody at the office, and they start talking about specifics. Instead of diving right into it and going tit for tat and trying to just... It's a back alley knife fight of just 1,000 paper cuts. Go to the general. Meaning instead of thinking micro, I want you to think macro. One of the best tools that has helped me when I can tell that when I'm talking to a witness things are starting to get heated, I say, "I agree." Hear me out. I don't say, "I agree with what you're saying." I say, "I agree that's worth a discussion. I agree that's worth talking about. I, I agree that's a point. I agree that's a way to think about it." You see how instead of just arguing about the little things, which most of the time really don't matter, they really don't, I start agreeing on the overall thing. Let's say you and I disagree over something politically. But I know we're just arguing over the little things. Instead of getting into the minutiae, I might say, "Yeah. I, I agree. I agree. We should take care of our, the next generation. I agree." It, it, find things to agree upon. You hear how people say, "Find common ground"? I don't necessarily agree with that all the time. What you need to do is find any ground to where you can get above to where you're, you feel like you're breathing above the argument, and a lot of the times, that comes from not thinking mac- micro, but thinking macro. I agree that's worth talking about. I agree that's worth a discussion. That one right there I use all the time. I might be talking to a witness, and they start trying to pull me into something. I'm, and I might say, "I... You know what? I agree that's a concern. I agree that's a fair concern." I don't have to agree with what they said. I just, "I agree that's a fair concern," and it instantly draws them down. It's a wonderful way of stopping them from getting defensive, and it's worked time and time for me in the courtroom and in the depositions. Three, here is something you're gonna hear from me a lot because it works. It certainly works in the courtroom. It definitely works in day to day, that you can use anywhere,
- 7:05 – 11:06
Tool #3: Enunciate, slow down, and use silence to stay grounded
- JFJefferson Fisher
anytime, and it's this: If you want to have strength, and if you want to have very assertive language, enunciate. Now, I am a good old Texas Southern boy. Sometimes, I'm sure you've noticed, I mumble. I mumble a lot, but if I'm wanting to really get into something, and I want somebody to pay attention and understand I mean business and I'm very serious, I will enunciate every word that I say because it is making it crisp. It is making it pointed, and it's not just me enunciating. I slow things down. So if I'm asking a, a witness a question, and if it's very important, I'm not gonna just breeze right by it. I'm not gonna go real fast. I'm going to slow it down. I might say, "Mr. Williams, you did not go to the store." You hear how that's a lot more grounded rather than me say, "Mr. Williams, you didn't go to the store, did you? You didn't go." They're gonna just take that away. So if you slow it down, it's like you stay in flow in the conversation. You stay in flow. Think of it as if y- you're pulling some thread, or you're opening a jar, or you're trying to untie something, or you're hooking a fish, and it's pulling on you. The tighter you pull, you snap it. So if you try to go really fast when things are getting really hectic and chaotic and tense in your conversation, and you yank, you will snap that line, and you will lose them for a very long time. But if you breathe and slow down your words, and you enunciate, and you go with the flow, and you draw it out, make the conversation last longer, you're gonna add in pauses. You're gonna add in silence. You're not working in defensiveness. You're, you're working in wisdom. You're, you're giving time to regulate. So whenever you find, and whenever I, I have ever found a witness to be very adversarial to me, and I know they don't like me, I know that has a lot more to do with their emotion and a lot more based on their assumptions of who I am. So when I can slow down, not only do I listen better, they regulate better, and so it, it is something that I use time and time again. I want you to think of that imagery of whenever you rapid response to something, and you get really angry, you rush into the response without thinking through it, you're snapping the line. You're snapping the line. I want you to give with it a little bit, then pull it back a little bit, and you can do that by using your breath and slowing things down and drawing out the conversation. See? I told you. It's not that, it's not all that legalese stuff. It's not the henceforth, wherefore, whereas, therein mumbo jumbo that doesn't mean anything. These are tools that I've picked up as an attorney in the courtroom, in the depositions, you name it, mediation rooms, that have helped me improve my communication, and these are tools that can transcend any place that you are. So if you feel like you're getting worked up in the car, and you're, you know, with, driving with your spouse, draw out the conversation. Use more silence. If you find that somebody is arguing with you about something, instead of getting into the minutiae and the details, find things above it that you can agree on. I agree this is worth talking about. Easy to use. And number one, get in the habit... You see how I reversed this? Get in the habit of turning your buts into ands. That one, to me, is the most powerful. That one is the most powerful because you pick it up. Just get, get militant. I mean, get disciplined about finding ways to turn your buts into ands because buts put up walls. Ands build bridges. So use the one that gets you where you want to go, all right?
- 11:06 – 14:44
How to start difficult conversations: skip the “compliment sandwich” and lead with the hard part
- SPSpeaker
Let's say that you're about to have a really difficult conversation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
What are some of the things you absolutely should not do that most people do when they're gonna have one?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Begin with the fluff.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
This, uh, compliment sandwich. What do they call that?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, uh... The compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and almost impossible to swallow. It's this idea of when you give the, "Hey, look, we've really enjoyed your time here. We think you're just... I think you're such an awesome person, and you're so great, Cody. Uh, so listen," um, and then they deliver the, the bad news. Well, that just means whatever they said before wasn't true. They said the word but, meaning everything that came out of it didn't mean anything. That's like saying, "I love you, but that's gotta go." Like, everything, [laughs] it doesn't matter what they said b- before. It, it's always the end, and so what you do is you leave them to kind of just twist in the wind, and it, it's not nearly as genuine.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So instead, what you have to do is lead with the difficult.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Trust me, it will make it easier.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It only gets harder if you start with the easy and gradually progress to the bad news.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When somebody says something like, "This is gonna be hard to hear," if I... Versus me saying, "Hey, Cody, um, uh, listen, you know how it's been really hard here lately, and, you know, we've... It, it... Look, this economy, you know, and the economy..." It, it, like, whatever it is, you're just, you keep on going. Versus me saying, "Cody, this is gonna be hard to hear. Cody, this is gonna be hard for us to talk about. This isn't gonna be fun. You're not gonna like this."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or just as simple as, "This is gonna be a difficult conversation." All of a sudden Cody's gonna ready herself and go, "Okay."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's kind of this, "All right, lay it on me." Everybody, uh, you could possibly say that to has that same power.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When you try and babyfoot it around and start with the icing, it, it... You're being disingenuous, and what you're saying is, "You're not emotionally resilient enough to handle it."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, "I'm too afraid to disappoint you because I want you to still like me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
But in truth, the kinder thing is to say, "I'm telling you this way because I like you." Or even if you plan the conversation of, "Cody, I'm telling you this because you can take it."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
"I'm telling you this bad news because I like you, and I have to, I have to give it to you," then you give the bad news. That's gonna be a whole lot better to start your difficult conversation every single time.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 14:44 – 20:11
Relationships and texting: transparency beats assumed expectations
- SPSpeaker
Jefferson, you talk the most about interpersonal relationships-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and not maybe as much about relationships.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But if there's a young man or woman out there wanting to have better conversations with the opposite sex, what is the most applicable advice you have for communications from all the things that you talk about?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, that's not easy.
- SPSpeaker
I know.
- JFJefferson Fisher
For when it comes to real relationships that you're wanting to build, one is transparency.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, the number one killer is the assumed or unspoken expectations.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let's put it in, in everyday life. Most of the time we text, right? That's, that's how we communicate. When you read into somebody's text and the voice that you hear it in and you expect it to be ugly or not nice, and it's a fine, "Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, fine. All right. Good night." Like, it's one of those as simple as a, "Oh, okay, I guess they hate me." As soon as you get to that point in your life or any time in that conversation, you are, are already setting yourself up for failure in communication in the long run.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You have to voice what those expectations are. So even if you were to, let's say, text that. If you can quickly text back, "Did you mean for that to be short?" Or, "Did you mean for that to sound upset?" And they go, "No, no, no, no, I was just in the middle of X, Y, and Z," or, "Well, I just didn't like that you said this." "Oh, okay," and let's address it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, this goes back to this fear of wanting to say the, the hard thing, instead just complaining about it and then later calling them a narcissist.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, [laughs] exactly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It doesn't work out well, but it's all over the internet.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
So what's better, to say, "Did you mean Jefferson to say... to sound upset," or, "Did you mean Jefferson to be short," or to say, "I took it as short"?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Like, no, it should always be on them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It... That. Did, did you mean for that?
- SPSpeaker
For that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm not saying you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, so don't put their name in there.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Don't, don't personalize it.
- SPSpeaker
Good one.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Detach it. Detach the personalization so that way it's not feeling like it's a you.
- 20:11 – 22:32
Power phrases and escalation traps: “maybe so” and what not to say
- JFJefferson Fisher
My favorite is to use is, maybe so. Like, somebody says something, no matter if it's an idea or it could be a, something mean or condescending or typically it's some kind of idea. I'll go, "Well, maybe so." Like that right there to me is, uh, it's my favorite power move, uh, to do.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] It is such a powerful-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because there's noth- there's nothing you can do with it. And, uh, what happens is the other person will actually start talking and, like, saying my point for me-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in many ways. But yeah, you just kind of slowly go, "Well, maybe so."
- SPSpeaker
It's also the well.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's a good, dear friend of mine, Joe, from Kentucky. That's what he does. He goes, "Well, hmm."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And he just kind of leaves it. Well.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's a great attitude to have.
- SPSpeaker
It really is.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, it, it, it goes back to just being in the pocket of, eh, I'm not really gonna be upset about this. Well, may- maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, God.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I, I don't know.
- SPSpeaker
We all need to be a little more Southern.
- SPSpeaker
Shifting back a little bit, like if somebody is entering a conversation with somebody and they want it to go as horrible as possible, what would they do?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, if they want it to go as horrible as possible?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, just they're trying to point people away from what they, like, really, really shouldn't, uh.
- JFJefferson Fisher
One would be to use extremes. That's the always and nevers. You always do that. Two would be beginning the word with you, even in the little things. Like, you would say that. And what does that mean? What's, what are you, what are you talking about there? So using the word you, very defensive. Uh, using extremes like the always and never, all it does is just guarantee you're gonna have another conversation about whether you always or never do the thing. And then three would probably be beginning your question with why. Why'd you do that? Why would I? Why would you? As soon as you ask why it becomes very confrontational. People take it very accusatory and assume that you're trying to undermine their autonomy, and we don't like that because we, we want to respond, why? Because, because I said so. That's why. Because I want it to. That's why. It's the same thing when somebody says you can't do that. What's the number one thing you wanna do? Prove to them that you can. And so these are just elements that there's lots of different ways a conversation can go south in a hurry. Of course, you can have, use offensive language, be vulgar, say terrible things, name call, toxic stuff. Take all th- that aside. The very small, little minor things are using you as your first sentence, beginning a question with why, and using extremes where you don't need them.
- 22:32 – 25:01
Self-assurance and standing your ground without becoming combative
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I know you talk about, like, self-assurance as being a way to productive conversations and when people lack that. And like you talked about at the beginning, like when you're kind of like fumbling your words and you're not clear, conversations can fall flat, right? But I think people oftentimes, they, they th- think standing up for themselves is confrontational. What do you believe about that, and how can people, like, embrace actually speaking their mind?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, there's the theme of understanding what you have to say is worth saying. There are people who just don't think that their words are that important, or what they have to share is really worth hearing, and that's just not true. That's, that's a lie that they're telling themselves. The second would be the mindset of when it comes to standing your ground, not everybody is worth getting out of your chair for. So if you have to stand your ground against every single person who disagrees, disagrees with you, and you feel like you have to... Like, have you been in those conversations? I have a friend of mine who if I disagree with him at any point, like he raises to 120%. Like, "Really, dude? That's what you think?" Like, our, "Hey, man, we're just, [laughs] we're just talking." Every time, if you want to make a battle out of everything, that's gonna be the default that everybody knows you to be, and that just means your buttons are exposed. Anybody can come and push a button of yours, and that means you really have no control, meaning you have no confidence in yourself. So it's the one, understanding you have something to share. Two, not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. If they don't mean something to you, if they don't matter, if the conversation doesn't matter, just because they throw a pitch doesn't mean you gotta swing. Just let it go by. It's a ball. Let it go. You don't need to swing at it. And then the other would be to understand that there are people out there that when it comes to the, the difficult stuff, th- they're not-- they're just not gonna be your, your person. When you wanna stand your ground, it is not only knowing you have the ability within yourself, but it's also stop undercutting your words. So that means removing things like, "This is probably a dumb question, but... You probably know better than me," um, or, "I could be wrong about this." By the way, anybody who starts with, "I could be wrong about this," never thinks they're wrong. You know, "I hate to bother you." Like, all you're doing is just telling them that you're bothering them. All you're doing is telling them you're about to ask a dumb question. Remove all of that. You don't, you don't need it. You just need to start with your point of what you want to say.
- 25:01 – 30:39
Navigating shut-down people and “thumbs up” culture: calibrate, don’t accuse
- SPSpeaker
What about, like, the other side of that? You mentioned, like, you have a buddy that, you know, goes zero to 100. There's some people that go from zero to zero and they're just cold, shut down, and that could irreal- When you're trying to express yourself to somebody, I mean, that's like top of the list of what I think irritates a lot of people is when they feel like that person isn't listening to them. I mean, I know, like, poking and pro- trying to pry that, that person to open up isn't necessarily the solution, but how can people navigate that?
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's hard, uh, because everybody has a tolerance. You know, there are people that are, let's say, uh, neurodivergent. There are people that can't read emotions very well. They don't know how to process those emotions very well. They're not sure what to do with them. So if you start forcing them on how they should feel and how they should think, and, "I want you to-- I wanna feel like you understood me," that can cause problems. There are ways that I'd say you could frame the conversation of, or you can ask the question of, "Should I read into that silence? Like, should I read into that? Do you-- Did you mean..." So, like, let's say if you're texting with somebody and all of a sudden they start sending some very short responses back. If you just q- instead of going, "Okay. You know what? You do you. You know what? Forget it," please assume it was, uh, it was bad intent. If you just ask the question, you text back, "Are you meaning to be short? Did you mean that to sound short?" And you, you are just asking these questions to calibrate the idea of, "I am perceiving something from you, and I don't know if that's the truth. So I'm gonna give you the grace to correct me." That's a whole lot better than telling them, "You're being so short. Why are you being so quiet?" Like, they're not gonna wanna open up. Whenever you say something like, "What's wrong?" What you're telling them is, how you're feeling right now is wrong. When truly, th- there could be nothing wrong. Like, how they're feeling is a totally normal feeling. Even if they are being quiet, that's a totally normal response. Everybody has different layers as to what their baseline is. We all come in with different defaults.
- SPSpeaker
I've seen something lately where people will kind of act like the other person to show them how they are treating them and hoping to get the same, get a reaction. So for instance, if you and I were texting and I'm like, "Yo bro, like, hope the, hope the book launch is going well. How are things?" And you're like, "Give me like a..." You liked the message. You know what I mean? Like a thumbs up. [laughs] You didn't even give me... [laughs] I'm like, "Dang, Jefferson's mad." [laughs] Or, and then, like, you come back to me and you're like, "Hey man, like, how's it going? I haven't heard from you in a while." And I just give you the thumbs up. And you're like, "Dude, what the heck?" You know? Is that... I mean, I would imagine that's a pretty immature way of handling it, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, isn't that funny how it's just a thumbs up but how we read so much into it? Yeah. I mean, a thumbs up now in our world right now is, is one of the most passive things you can do. Now, I feel like it's okay in the business context. Like, if you're not talking with a real friend, but you're just like, "Yep, got it. Cool. Sounds good." Somebody texts, "Hey, we're at this restaurant." Thumbs up. "Got it." But if the prompt is for real meaningful discussion and you just like it, or even you heart it, whatever, like, it is, it is only informing them of, I think so little of this conversation that I can't give the time to move my thumb two centimeters to use actual pixels that represent words. It is like the ultimate laziness, in my opinion. So it is... I, I, I love emojis. Emojis are great 'cause it gives some context for things. It helps give a little bit more emotional nuance into the conversation. But yeah, if the prompt is for real genuine conversation and they just give it a thumbs up, that's bad, bad stuff. Y- I mean, if you need to follow up, up with, "You mad? You good?" Like, I feel if, if that happened, if you did that to me, I would respond with, "You good? All good?" Like, "Oh yeah. No, all good. I'm just, you know, I'm in the middle of whatever, whatever, running this errand." So you also wanna kinda give them the grace to not take it too personally.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I think it, it can be useful, like, if you're communicating with somebody and you're like, "Hey, I'm on my way. I'll be there in 10," you give them, like, a thumbs up. But you know, you don't have to, like, go into like, "Oh, like, what road are you on? Like, what are you seeing on the sidewalk?" [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or it's, uh, what I will often do is I will tell them, "Not ignoring you. Running through this errand. I'll call you, you know, text you in a little bit. Text you later today." Like, if I can just let them know, "I've seen it, I'm not ignoring you," this is... I mean, uh, even if, if it's the next day, I'll still say, you know, "Not ignoring this, trying to get to a point where I can wrap my head around it," or whatever. It's just acknowledging. Like, it's just that feeling of, "Can, can you please let me know at all that you heard me, that I'm not just speaking into nothing?" Well, I saw a funny meme today that was like, "When my wife calls me by my actual name, I might as well have the divorce papers ready," [laughs] 'cause I know she's mad or something. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Exactly. It was kind of very similar to, like, giving you a thumbs up on, like, an initial message.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] That's exactly right. Yeah, that's... You just know. That's like getting, "We need to talk," period. You're like, "Well, okay, I guess I'll better pick out my gravestone because I did something terrible." That's, that's how it feels.
- SPSpeaker
Well, Jefferson, this has been awesome. I could talk to you for hours, man.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Same, dude.
- 30:39 – 31:15
Mindset shift: you can change everything with what you choose to say next
- SPSpeaker
Loved our conversation. Is there anything else you would like to share regarding what we've talked about, stuff in the book that you think the audience would appreciate?
- JFJefferson Fisher
The only thing I would share is that the whole point of communication and what I... my mission in, in the world and what's part of my book is that it doesn't, doesn't matter what you said in the last conversation, doesn't matter what you've said in the past, that you can truly change it all with simply what you choose to say next, and that you can really make it a better world with just one conversation at a time. You, you really can, no matter where you wanna be.
- 31:15 – 45:10
Changing minds metaphor: you can’t pour into a full glass—use questions to ‘empty’ it
- SPSpeaker
So Jefferson, what do we have here?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, so this is how I like to illustrate the right way and wrong way to try and change somebody's mind. So in communication, often you come across somebody and you just don't agree with them, and you think, "Why can't they just understand me?" Here's the point with this. We have two glasses of water, two are full. One is gonna represent your mind, and one's gonna represent my mind. And let's just say this is just the pitcher of general knowledge, all right? Whatever this is. Here, whenever you wanna change somebody's mind, what I teach is you can't pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full. So let's say we have an opinion on how we should run things. Let's say in relationships, an opinion on, on how we should run finances.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Opinion on how we should, um, parent the kids or how we should discipline or how we should run the house, whatever it is, in any context. Everybody has their own glass that's full of things. That's generally things of everything from their childhood for how they were raised, 'cause we come into things, into relationships, everything that we were taught. So how we were taught is the only right way to do things.
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So you can't pour, right here, new thoughts into a glass that's already full. Now, if I'm gonna take this glass and I'm going to say, "I want to change your mind on something," and if I start with, "Hey, you're so wrong. You don't understand. Why are you doing it this way? I don't get it. I don't understand," and it just what? It tumps over.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, because you're already full. If I want to change your mind, I have to start with questions, questions of getting them to pour all of their thoughts out before I can pour anything else in.
- SPSpeaker
I see.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So what goes wrong is we start to try and prove and prove and prove. The takeaway here is rather than having something to prove, I want you to have something to learn. So right here, I know this is gonna splash some water, but every time I ask a question, I want you to pour some water out. So let's say you and I are disagreeing about something. Rather than me trying to push and prove my point, I'm gonna ask the question, "Well, what, what led to that decision for you?" I pour out some water.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And pour out a good bit.
- SPSpeaker
Oh.
- JFJefferson Fisher
There we go.
- SPSpeaker
That's my decision.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's perfect right there.
- SPSpeaker
So that's what led to it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
There we go. Now, now I'm gonna say, "What else? What... How did you, how did you come to that opinion? How long have you had that?"
- SPSpeaker
Ah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now you pour-
- SPSpeaker
My whole life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
This is what I was taught.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And where did, where did they learn? Is this something that you've, you've grown up with, or do you feel like this is something that y- you feel like this is the only right way to do it?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah, I was taught this was it. This is the only way to do it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And see, you're gonna pour all your glass out. Now, perfect. Now, once you feel like you've been 100% heard and acknowledged, and something that I have now given you all the space to say what you need to say and tell me why, and I've actually been curious enough to have the patience enough to know why you believe what you know-
- 45:10 – 50:43
Nice vs kind: stop people-pleasing and choose honest connection
- JFJefferson Fisher
I wanna talk about nice versus kind. You might be saying, "Jefferson, they seem a lot like the, the same thing." I understand that, and I get that, so I don't want you feeling like that's a bad thought. It's, it's not whatsoever. Let me clarify some things. Nice, all right, is a word that originally meant to be ignorant, all right? From its Latin roots and how it was used, somebody who was just naive. And then it began to be used as somebody who was pleasant or polite, right? That's where we get the people pleasing, somebody who's polite. It's socially acceptable. They have custom usage that is kind... uh, not kind, but somebody is... oh, yeah, I mean, kind is a synonym, synonym, synonym of nice. So there's, there is certainly a tie there, but nice is very different. Nice is surface. There's no depth. Nice is concerned about appearance. Nice is concerned about appearance. It is surface. There is not depth. If you want to describe somebody who you loved a lot or meant the world to you, would you use the word nice? No. No, there are so many deeper, meaningful words to use for somebody that matters a lot to you. Nice is reserved for those people that pass, uh, you in, at the workplace, the, the acquaintances, the f- the, the, the smaller level of friends, that friend group that's, you know, they're, they're nice. He's, he's a nice person. She's nice. He's nice. They, they say nice things to me. That's really what I mean. But you wouldn't use the word nice to describe a loved one, your parents, a sibling, your spouse, your kids. Yeah, you know, uh, my son, he's nice. You wouldn't say that. Why? Nice is not for depth. It is for surface. It is concerned about appearance. Kind, very different. Kind is all about depth. It is intentional. Kindness originally came from kin. That is to be someone who's family or of the, the same type. In other words, we will be as one. There is connection with the word kind. Let me give you an example. Quick example. Somebody who is nice says, "You know what? I, I really like the pair of socks that you have on. That's... uh, I think those are so great." And you go, "You know what? They're a really nice person. They said something very polite and pleasing to my ears." Kind says, "I need to tell you something because it's really been on my heart," and they deliver some type of bad news. That's kind. Even if it's not termed as nice, it is kind, and you hear that there's connection in that. There's something I need to tell you. It's been, it's really been on my heart. It's been weighing on me. I can't do this any longer. This is something that doesn't work for me. This is something I have to do. This is something that is right for me. You hear how there is connection in kindness. So what is that? Stop playing nice at the expense of playing real. Nice is harmony. Kindness is honesty. There is... And I don't want to say that as in you, you can't be nice and honest. I just mean a deeper level, and I know you can hear that, that nice is concerned about keeping the harmony. That's, that's really what I mean. Nice does not necessarily mean keeping the honesty, 'cause most of the time people don't say what is true because it doesn't feel nice. I don't want to say that to them. That's not nice. You ever thought that? I have. I don't want to say that. That, that didn't, that wouldn't be nice. But is it honest? Yes. Is it real? Yes. Then say that thing, because it will eventually make you hollow. It'll be- it'll make you hollow. There are... In, in my part of Texas, we have trees, and of course, if you listen to this podcast, you know I love trees. And what they do as they die over time is they most- mostly they die from the inside out. You would never know. You'd never know. It looks like a fine tree for years, and all of a sudden pieces of it would just start to fall off, limb after limb after limb, and then slowly just starts to cut down because the inside is hollow. How many of you listening right now, truly, just take a breath with me for a second. [inhales and exhales] And just ask yourself, examine yourself, do you feel hollow inside? Because you are using words that sound nice but are not sustaining you inside because you're not being real with yourself. You're not being authentic. You're playing nice at the expense of being real. This is where you stop it. This is where you stop it, and I'm going to help you.
- 50:43 – 1:08:07
Why ‘winning’ arguments loses relationships—and how to persuade without domination
- JFJefferson Fisher
The never win an argument mindset is something I believe so strongly in because I have seen the opposite turn out to be false every single time, where you always set out to win. And there are, are books that are titled Win Every Argument. There are blogs, How to Win Every Argument. And I would read those and just shake my head because I just see that as such just snake oil salesman, just this how could you possibly try and teach this to people? Because that's just not real life. It's not real life. Um, even as an attorney, people say, "Look, you should... Don't you win every argument?" No, absolutely not. Um, it, it's, it's, it's n- nothing's in a vacuum. As an attorney, I don't really win arguments. I, I have facts. I can't, I can't choose my own facts. Then when a client comes in, they have to give me what, what the problem is, a- and I have to run with that. I gotta play the cards that are dealt. Same thing with the law. I can't change the law. I can't choose which law applies. It's not like you get a, a choice, A, B, C, D, all the above. Like, there's n- you are confined to a set of parameters, and you have to do what you can do best, which is advocate for your client based on the parameters that are set. And you have a judge, you have a court reporter, you have a bailiff, you have opposing counsel, and you have 12 jurors, or maybe six if you're in a county court, and it's up to them, the decision-makers, to apply what you give to the law under the rules of evidence to come to a decision, period. You see how many layers there are?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's not just what I say. Now, I would say there's a huge power in the influence I have over a jury, and it has little to do with what I say, but it has almost everything to do with how I make them feel, how I ex- uh, how I carry myself, how I, my client carries him or herself. It is all this micro details. It's not this big... The person who comes in and is grandiose, just slinging, thinking they're everything, they're the one that's going to lose almost every, every time. The person who thinks that they have it all prepared, the person who comes in with the shiny s- uh, you know, the fancy suit, Rolex, shiniest shoes you've ever seen, they came in in their Mercedes, I'll show you that's an attorney who will lose, uh, because it's not relatable to a jury. Never is. In fact, I'll even tell you this. Some of the best trial attorneys that I've seen, of course, they make lots of money, um, but they also don't go to court in that vehicle. They have other vehicles that are old, in use, that they keep, they've had their whole life. This is, like, the vehicle they had-
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's hilarious
- JFJefferson Fisher
... when they first started out because they don't want the jury to see it. And so they won't wear their fanciest stuff. They won't drive the fancy... uh, wear all their fancy stuff. They will be as normal as they can possibly be because that is relatable. Um, so it's, it's funny how even when you pull into that parking lot in front of the courtroom, you are, you are on display at all times. And so the jurors will watch every move that you make.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So why do you say never win in an argument? 'Cause that- that's kind of like all of us fantasize, you know, five minutes after we've had the argument, we're, like, thinking through what we should have said or what we could have said-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- JFJefferson Fisher
... which by the way, goes to the title of the book. But-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... yeah, just back that up a little bit.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The question is do you always want to win an argument? When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship, like, if you only see it as something to win. That means you're going to lose a lot more. Let's ask the question, what have you won? Okay, I said the thing that hurts you. I said the one thing that took it too far. Now you're leaving the room. Now you wanna hang up the phone. Now you're the one who's upset, and I'm the one left standing there alone. What have you... Congrats. What did, what did, what have you got?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now you've, you've most likely won to be the first to apologize. Really that's, that's what you've won.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] That's so true.
- JFJefferson Fisher
In, in relationships especially, like, uh, married, you've won to be the first to apologize. The one who's the last one.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. 100%.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The one who says the thing the last, who has to say, who has to be the last one to get the word, you're first up to apologize. Congrats. Swing away. Like, it, it is just this mentality that we have to have of being competitive in conversation and heated arguments where that's just, that's... You will lose that. You're gonna lose their respect, you're gonna lose their trust, and over time you're gonna lose the relationship. I mean, who, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right? I mean, who... That, that is somebody who is lonely.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And that is somebody who will eventually isolate themselves out because nobody's gonna wanna be around that person. What I teach, and the, the whole thesis of this book is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, meaning we, we... You're gonna take the loose ends. Like, if I have... There's a direct string between me and y'all, and I'm saying, "No, you have to go my way," and you're saying, "No, you have to go my way," well, all that knot does is it gets tighter and tighter, and the harder we pull and the longer we pull, the harder it becomes to undo, the harder it becomes to unravel. And sometimes it takes all day to unravel it. Maybe it takes a week before emotions die down and you're willing to look at it, or sometimes, you know what? It's, it's over a year. Some people haven't spoken to their adult child or their parent in whatever it is, and it happens to the closest of people.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They haven't spoken in years because of how tight they made that knot. And so that's that. The quicker you are to apologize, the quicker you are to, to start seeing where they're coming from, that, that knot never tightens.
- SPSpeaker
Okay, Jefferson, I have to play devil's advocate for a second. So there are times that you want to persuade someone. You know, maybe there's a lot at stake. Maybe there's something really important that needs to happen. Um, my husband and I are dealing with this right now in an extended family situation. But in a situation where you do wanna persuade somebody, it's not about winning per se, but you w- but you need to move them maybe for their own best interest. First of all, is that valid? Second of all, how is that different from, like, winning an argument, and do you help people learn how to be more persuasive but in a way that ultimately is good for a relationship?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Great question. Winning has to do with I'm the last one standing, and you know I have won. That's very different from, "We need to take action, and I need your cooperation," or, "I need you to understand, and I need to connect with you on the action that's going to be taken." Winning says, "I have no respect really for your feelings. I have no respect for, uh, your point of view. I'm willing to say whatever it takes for you to go away." And that, as you know, that, that's the fight or flight. It's the... It's this mindset of, "I am going to be the king of the, the rock," whatever it is, the king of the mountain, the king of the hill, the person that's left here. "I'm the one that is right. You're the one that is wrong. Got it?" That's, that's winning. Um, the mindset of, "We have a choice to make, and either you're gonna be with me on this choice or you're not. Either way, it's gonna be fine with me. I'm still gonna respect you. I'm still gonna understand you. I'm still gonna hear your opinion." Like, my dad would put it to me this way growing up. If I disagreed with something, um, uh, let's say I'm 17, a lot of things I think I know the way of the world, and I would disagree with what he'd say. Anytime I would complain, he'd say, "Well, you don't have to like it. You just gotta understand it." I mean, it, it would be his, like, way of telling me, you know, "Hey, you... Feel free to disagree. This is what we're gonna do."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, and [laughs] and so it, it was such a good lesson. Now, I didn't appreciate it, I can promise you that, but it, I... Now I have the f- the, the hindsight of saying, uh, he, he gave me the freedom to disagree, and it took all the fight out of it. It was, "I'm giving you a chance to connect with me. I'm giving you a chance to understand where we're going." And that's, that's the key with connection is you can... I can still d- disagree with you and still connect with you. I can still, I can still be unhappy, I can still be mad at you, and still connect with you. So if you need to come to a mutual decision on something, that's very different. That is more of a coordinated dance-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... um, where there is going to be an exit from this. A win of an argument says, "I am pushing you out of it." Very different.
- SPSpeaker
Very.
- SPSpeaker
I had a friend of mine say to me the other day that the thing that annoys him most about his wife is just, like, how long she takes to get ready, and he, like, really, like, offloaded it to me in a way where I'm like, this is a problem [laughs] for him.
- 1:08:07 – 1:22:23
Silence as a superpower and the conversational breath to prevent reactive spirals
- SPSpeaker
Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Why?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, it... Silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It, it, the first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations. You use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And in that silence, holding that with, the, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Um, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.
- SPSpeaker
Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?
- JFJefferson Fisher
You can weaponize it.
- SPSpeaker
Uh-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, so you could... Uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to... I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a toc- toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and, as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you please come back to me?" will they, you know, graciously-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in their mercy go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Before you start reacting and just blurting out words-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... you're saying t- that first word is your breath.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Okay? So your, what, is that an inhale?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, so it's, um, y- you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... where it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, m- what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like that, not, not that type of-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently, any time right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you're, it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You, our bodies go , like, we, we, everything we don't like it, we kind of start to seize up.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
We start, we take a big breath. We're like, "Oh, okay, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.
Episode duration: 1:22:24
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Transcript of episode i6bdkDWXrCc
