Skip to content
The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

The Biggest Red Flags in Dating Communication ft. Sabrina Zohar

The way you communicate in a relationship can tell you a lot about whether it's actually healthy. In this episode, I'm joined by dating and relationship expert Sabrina Zohar to talk about the biggest communication mistakes people make in dating, relationships, and even breakups. We discuss why texting can create a false sense of intimacy, how to recognize emotional immaturity, the difference between being direct and being hurtful, and why setting boundaries can reveal someone's true intentions. Sabrina also shares practical ways to communicate your needs, take accountability, and build relationships where you don't have to beg to be heard. Buy Sabrina’s new book, Why Am I Like This? https://sabrinazohar.com/book Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostSabrina Zoharguest
Oct 16, 20261h 17mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:10

    Why being direct early in dating creates clarity (Sabrina’s first-date boundary)

    1. JF

      How valuable is being forward in your communication in a relationship?

    2. SZ

      To me, being forward in your communication is what's going to differentiate between getting what you want versus need, and actually having the life that you deserve. Because I'll give you an example. When I first met my partner, we did a lot of things that on paper we should never have been together, right? Like, we spent hours together, we were intimate together on the first date.

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SZ

      And we left and I was like, "I'm never gonna see this guy again." But in my head, when he asked me, "Did you have a good time? Would you like to see me again? Da, da, da, da," I looked at him directly in the eye and I said, "Spare me the time. At the end of the day, I don't do casual, I don't do friends with benefits. I'm incredibly intentional the way that I show up and the way that I date. And if you wanna continue seeing me, that's because you reciprocate that. And if not, please don't waste my time and don't call me again."

    5. JF

      Hmm.

    6. SZ

      And I remember him saying, "That was so sexy," because I knew that I was less afraid of losing him and more afraid of losing myself. And I think being direct and to the point, you'll either get what you want, which is the person, or you'll get what you need, which is the clarity around maybe they're limited, maybe they don't have the capacity or the bandwidth, but at least you're gonna find out because you're ta- telling somebody exactly what it is that you need.

    7. JF

      And y- you, you definitely come across as a more forward personality. Where does that come from for you?

  2. 1:10 – 2:25

    How childhood dynamics shape people-pleasing—and the shift to boundaries

    1. SZ

      Truthfully, I was never always like this. I learned this as I did a lot of work on myself and understood that the old version of me, you said, "Jump," I said, "How high?" I was terrified of hurting anybody, upsetting anybody, because that was the childhood I had. I had a narcissistic father and a people-pleasing mother.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SZ

      And so it was a very unsafe environment to be authentically myself. I couldn't just say what I wanted because there was always a risk on the other side of what that meant and what was gonna happen to me. And so I moved to New York when I was 19, started to find myself, started to grow into myself, dated all the wrong people, and it wasn't until I hit my rock bottom where I realized I consistently am waiting for other people to choose me, but I've never chosen myself. And once I started to do that, no became my favorite word. I started setting boundaries. But it was really, honestly, where that came from was when I learned to grieve, and learned that by being like this, I was going to lose people. I was gonna have people that didn't like the way that I show up, that benefited from the fact that I said yes when I meant to say no. And I knew that in order for me to be authentic to myself-

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm

    5. SZ

      ... and actually be this forward, I was going to have to be okay to annoy some people and to lose them. And that was a risk I was willing to take because now the people in my life are there because of how I show up, not for who I pretend to be.

  3. 2:25 – 4:01

    Fast talking, ADHD, and “earning airtime” in a loud environment

    1. JF

      You speak really fast.

    2. SZ

      I do.

    3. JF

      Where does that, where does that come from?

    4. SZ

      ADHD.

    5. JF

      Well, uh, d- do any of your parents talk really fast?

    6. SZ

      My mom is a pretty fast talker, and truth be told, my brother has very classic ADHD, like bouncing off the walls, Ritalin as a kid.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. SZ

      And so I think in our household, in order to be heard, you had to get it out quick.

    9. JF

      Yes.

    10. SZ

      And you had to say it so that somebody could understand. And my brain is like a funnel. I have so many things I wanna get out that I have to be able to process it to get it through. And for me, it's just, it feels really authentic for me to be able to just riff and have a conversation and get it out, and if you can keep up, great, and if not, that's okay, too.

    11. JF

      Yeah, no, I can tell. I'm like, I'm really needing to concentrate because it comes out really quickly. And you said you, you told me before you also lived in New York for a while.

    12. SZ

      I did.

    13. JF

      I think also that's kinda cultural, like how fast people speak 'cause you don't get the time.

    14. SZ

      Exactly. It's like very one-two, let's go, let's go, let's go. And then moving to LA, I felt like a foreign object. I felt like a creature in the Black Lagoon-

    15. JF

      [laughs]

    16. SZ

      ... 'cause everybody was like, "Hey, what's the rush?" And I was like, "Oh, I'm just being myself."

    17. JF

      Uh-huh.

    18. SZ

      And so I've learned to slow down in other ways, but then in some ways to just be myself and see who likes it.

    19. JF

      Well, you said you, you had to learn how to say no, and that's when it kind of the, the flip switch for you on being more forward in communication, 'cause I wanna keep talking about that.

    20. SZ

      Yeah.

    21. JF

      What, what was the impetus of that? Like, what, what... People don't just walk throughout the day and go, "You know what? All of a sudden, I think I'm gonna, 'No' is gonna be my favorite word, and then I'm gonna be really forward in my communication." That had to come from something.

  4. 4:01 – 8:19

    Repeating patterns: dating “your parent,” therapy, and radical self-awareness

    1. SZ

      Mm-hmm. I married my father, essentially. I was with a man that was just like him. Not in any other way besides how I felt when I was with him.

    2. JF

      Okay.

    3. SZ

      And I allowed a lot of stuff that I should never have allowed, right? He was incredibly narcissistic. He would put me down quite often.

    4. JF

      So a relationship?

    5. SZ

      Relationship, correct.

    6. JF

      Okay.

    7. SZ

      And when he broke up with me and he was- left me, I started therapy.

    8. JF

      Hmm.

    9. SZ

      And that's when I started to realize, like, wait a minute, there's a common theme.

    10. JF

      Okay.

    11. SZ

      It's not that it's my fault-

    12. JF

      Yeah

    13. SZ

      ... but I am the common denominator in all of these circumstances.

    14. JF

      Ah, okay. 'Cause I can tell even the words that you are putting together, it's like, okay, that's, some of this comes from deep therapy-

    15. SZ

      Yeah

    16. JF

      ... work that only happens when you go through family of origin, when you go through digging through the, the trauma of-

    17. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    18. JF

      ... not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you. You know?

    19. SZ

      Why am I like this?

    20. JF

      Yeah, exactly. And so when you, um, you started going, "Okay, I'm gonna start working on myself," about how many years ago was that?

    21. SZ

      Hmm. Nine years ago now.

    22. JF

      Yeah, nine years ago. And so here you are now being able to use your voice in words in a way probably you had no clue what would become your greatest pain has now become, you know, one of your greatest assets. So what's that, what's that like for you?

    23. SZ

      It's interesting 'cause a lot of people ask me do I, like, did you ever see the movie Eternal Sunshine?

    24. JF

      Is, uh, that the one with, uh-

    25. SZ

      Jim Carrey

    26. JF

      ... yes.

    27. SZ

      Yeah.

    28. JF

      I have. I know I remember it when it came out. I don't think I've seen it.

    29. SZ

      So the premise of it, right, is that they go through this intense breakup, and they erase each other's memories, right? Of they get, each one of them gets their memory erased of the other person.

    30. JF

      Oh, wow. Okay.

  5. 8:19 – 13:32

    Blunt vs mean: scripts, code words, and I-statements that prevent resentment

    1. JF

      What would you say to somebody who says, "The problem is I'm too blunt"?

    2. SZ

      I think that there's a difference between being blunt and being mean because you could be direct and say, "I really didn't like the way you said that to me." And so for instance, Ryan and I have two code words that we use, and Ryan's my partner, that we say when something really hurts us. And so we'll say, "To avoid resentment, can I share?" And that means, like, phones down, eye contact, like, this is something serious.

    3. JF

      Say it again for me.

    4. SZ

      To avoid resentment, can I share?

    5. JF

      To avoid resentment, can I share?

    6. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      Okay. Got it.

    8. SZ

      And then otherwise, "Can I share something with you?" So when, when we hear either of those, what that really does is to me it's a cue of saying, "This person is asking for my attention. I'm gonna put my phone down. I'm not gonna be half listening"-

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm

    10. SZ

      ... "I'm gonna look them dead in the eye," because I see this as I wanna share with you using I statements. So for instance, when you said no to me, you didn't do anything wrong. You're allowed to say no. I created a story that that's like my dad and I felt dismissed. Moving forward, would you be able to tell me why you said no so I don't create that narrative?

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SZ

      Very blunt, very direct. I'm not being, I'm not attacking your character. I'm not going below the belt. I'm not using words that are inappropriate in this type of conversation. And I think some people see blunt and think, "I'll just tell you everything I think." It's like you still need to funnel. You still need to understand that you are speaking to somebody else with their own lived experience, their own triggers and traumas and everything that they're going through. And so I think that there's also a fine line and balance between being direct and then just being no filter.

    13. JF

      Yeah. I find that most people, it's, I'll tell you who it typically is. It's typically a woman in the workplace who says, "The problem is not that I have too much con- you know, I have not enough confidence, is that I'm just too blunt," and that, you know, disrupts everything. And it's like, well, then use that bluntness and have a better conversation with about why and how that affected you and how that might affect them. You find that that's, you see that in the workplace as well?

    14. SZ

      100%. 100%. I w- was, prior to being an entrepreneur and doing my own thing, worked in the workplace, and I really struggled because I found, I worked in a lot of male-dominated industries, and so I found a woman having a voice was not something that anybody really wanted. And I had to craft and learn that me saying something of like, "Well, I don't agree," it's like, okay, Sabrina, there's another way that you could say this. Maybe you can say, "I have another opinion if you'd be open to hearing what I have to say," or, "I'd like to share something if you're open to that." I like to get consent to make sure that somebody's actually receptive. And because to me I'm like, I don't need to bang my head up against the wall because I'm the one that's bleeding. It's not anything else.

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SZ

      And so I think in the work environment, for sure it's hard to feel like you're balancing between I wanna say what it is that I have to say, but I also wanna respect the people that I work with.

    17. JF

      How would you define blunt?

    18. SZ

      In my world, blunt is saying what you mean and meaning what you say. It's just being direct, no BS, this is what it is so that you don't have to guess. That's, I think, the difference though because some people see blunt as no filter. I just tell you everything I'm thinking-

    19. JF

      Right

    20. SZ

      ... at least I said it. It's like, no, some things are better left unsaid.

    21. JF

      [laughs]

    22. SZ

      Some things are good for you to keep internal.

    23. JF

      Right. Blunt doesn't mean you have to turn off the filter.

    24. SZ

      Correct. It doesn't mean you have to be mean.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. SZ

      Some people will say, like, "Oh, I'm just being blunt and direct with you." It's like, no, you just told me you didn't like me.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      I, I didn't need to hear that.

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. SZ

      You could have just said, "This doesn't work for me," and move on.

  6. 13:32 – 18:57

    How forward should you be on a first date? Depth without trauma dumping

    1. JF

      see all the emotions. So the, the question I have is, what do you find the balance is for people that are on first dates? Let's do that. Let's go, on a first date, how forward should you be?

    2. SZ

      I think you should be forward about not wasting your time. So you should be forward about, do you want marriage and kids, right? Because if off the bat you tell me, "No, I, I'm not interested in ever having children, but I want 10," well then we're not aligned. I think that it needs to be forward in the sense that you should be asking questions of depth so that you can actually understand, like, how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself?

    3. JF

      Hmm.

    4. SZ

      I didn't ask about your ex. I don't care about your ex. I wanna understand what you learned from this experience because I wanna see how growth-minded you are and how much accountability you take. So there's aspects of things that, and comfort level, right, of course, depending on the-

    5. JF

      Yeah

    6. SZ

      ... conversation, how it's flowing, but I think that it's really important. A lot of people are so scared to take up space, especially early in dating, because it's, "Oh, I don't want them to think I'm too much. I don't want-

    7. JF

      Right

    8. SZ

      ... them to think I'm any of this." But they're so focused on how they're perceived, but they're not actually in the connection to see if that other person also works for them.

    9. JF

      Yeah. I, I like the aspect of being forward about what's wasting your time and what's not. My, my brain also says the flip of that, of like when exactly these kind of serious conversations should happen, because you could be in that first date and somebody goes, "Okay, well here's the childhood trauma that I've had. I really don't wanna waste my time here." Like, it's, sorry, I just said it's your turn to bowl.

    10. SZ

      [laughs]

    11. JF

      You know what I mean? Like you don't, like wh- when exactly, how, um, better question is, when should you have the more serious conversations when you're dating?

    12. SZ

      You should never be sharing your childhood trauma with someone you don't know.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. SZ

      Because you don't know what that person's gonna do with it. If that person is incredibly narcissistic or sociopathic, right?

    15. JF

      Right.

    16. SZ

      There are people out there that will take that and be like, "Oh, her dad did that? Put it in my pocket."

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SZ

      Because then they're using this as like, "Cool, this is what I'm going to do." That's trauma bonding and trauma dumping at that point. Like-

    19. JF

      Of course

    20. SZ

      ... we don't want that. But I do think, you know, you go on the date, like first assess how you feel when you're with them. Maybe it means after an hour you go to the bathroom and you're like, "I really like this person. They're fun. I can have a great conversation. The ti- it's flowing. I didn't even see how long it's been. My cheeks hurt, I've been laughing so much."

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SZ

      Then I think that's when you can be like, "Hey, I just wanna share, I'm really intentional with the way that I date. Like, are you looking for a relationship, casual? Like, what's your, what are you, what are you actually seeking right now?"

    23. JF

      Hmm.

    24. SZ

      If that scares somebody off, then do me the favor, let me open the door for you so you don't waste any more time.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. SZ

      Because I think what we wanna do is we wanna have a baseline of understanding that you would actually say, "I'd like to see this person again." Once you address that, it might take you an hour, it might take you an hour and a half, right? You might go through a few rounds of bowling before you actually get to do that.

    27. JF

      Right.

    28. SZ

      That's when I think it's important to understand, do you want the same things? Is, how do you date, right? Like, "Hey, I'm a big texter, uh, but like, if you're not, that's cool. I can respect that. Like, do you wanna see each other again? Are you down? If not, you can call me." I think that there are ways that you could do it while also not overperforming. 'Cause that's where I think the line between being forward and then over-functioning start to get blurry.

    29. JF

      Hmm.

    30. SZ

      Because especially I see it with women that I work with, they don't really give the man the opportunity to reach out. And so it's like they text them good morning. They ask how their day is going. They already make the plans. They made the reservation. And meanwhile the guy's like, "I didn't even have a chance to push myself forward."

  7. 18:57 – 22:18

    Texting isn’t intimacy: dopamine loops, projections, and early dating pacing

    1. JF

      It is vintage. It depends what you're [laughs] coming in, I guess. Uh, do you think it's... Let me ask it this, this way. When you're early on dating, should you text every day?

    2. SZ

      I don't think so. Texting is a false sense of intimacy, and texting is a dopamine reward loop. That's just intermittent reinforcement.

    3. JF

      It's definitely dopamine.

    4. SZ

      It's dopamine all day. It's the same with social media.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SZ

      The problem with texting is, listen, if somebody says the next day, "Hey, I had a really great time. I'd love to see you again." "Fabulous. I'm free on Thursday." "Great. Let's do dinner." "Awesome. 7:30?" "See you there." That's it.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. SZ

      That's the extent of the text. Then maybe the day before, "Hey, I'll see you tomorrow at 7:30. Reservations made." "Great. Can't wait."

    9. JF

      Right.

    10. SZ

      Maybe the day of, "I'm wearing an orange shirt." "I'll see you there." Great. That's the extent, but what happens is text has no tone, and so people are text, text, text all day, and they're Chatty Cathys, and then you meet with the person and either they don't fulfill the need that you've just created.

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SZ

      You've built this entire version of who they are, which both of us are internet personalities. People will do that anyways.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. SZ

      We understand what that looks like. But on top of that, then you're just looking to see, are they satisfying the needs that you have to feel like you're reassured and that this person's not gonna forget about you? But somebody texting you good morning every single day doesn't mean that they want a relationship with you. And so I think to me, my mom always said, "When you start at 100, where else are you gonna go?"

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SZ

      So if you start coming out of the gate where you're texting all the time, well, then how are you getting to know each other in person with body language and expressions and tonality and-

    17. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    18. SZ

      ... you're just texting all the time. And as somebody who used to all the time, I can tell you very clearly it's not gonna help your dating life.

    19. JF

      Yeah, and also it can, it, as you said, the dopamine of, like, social media, 'cause what happens then you wanna text more.

    20. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JF

      And then it, it only, when you don't get that supply, then it turns into the negative of why am I not getting the supply, and the frustration of not getting that supply-

    22. SZ

      Yeah

    23. JF

      ... which doesn't, doesn't do well. So-

    24. SZ

      And then you start to create, you know, we fill in the blanks with our core beliefs. So if you and I are texting all the time.

    25. JF

      Okay.

    26. SZ

      Like, I'll give you an example. When I was in my heyday of dating, I had a couple of good dates with these guys. Like, it'd be nice. You know, nothing great. And then all of a sudden it was like a, a flip would switch where you're like, "I have to get them. I have to get this person this day." And I would start texting, and I remember texting a guy being like, "Hey, would you like to grab dinner?" He didn't answer for, like, 20 minutes, and I wrote back, "Okay, guess not."

    27. JF

      Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

    28. SZ

      Sure enough, an hour later he was like, "Hey, I was in a meeting. Like, it's a Monday."

    29. JF

      Right.

    30. SZ

      "I'm working."

  8. 22:18 – 24:07

    Green flags: consistency, reciprocity, and how they respond to ‘no’

    1. SZ

      To me, consistency, and what I mean by that is I always said the person I go to bed to is the person I wake up to.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SZ

      That, like, there's no giant variances because what I see a lot of the times is the intensity of, like, they text nonstop for a day, and then you don't hear from them for a week, and then they come in-

    4. JF

      Mm

    5. SZ

      ... and that hot and cold is gonna be like whiplash. That's dopamine right there-

    6. JF

      Yeah

    7. SZ

      ... 'cause you're waiting and waiting and waiting. So-

    8. JF

      Then it becomes toxic.

    9. SZ

      Right?

    10. JF

      Yeah.

    11. SZ

      So to me it's somebody that is incredibly consistent, is reciprocal, is also FaceTiming and having phone calls-

    12. JF

      Yeah

    13. SZ

      ... and not just using a text. If somebody uses Snapchat over the age of 16, no thank you.

    14. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. SZ

      Right? Like, that's not, that is not cute.

    16. JF

      Yeah.

    17. SZ

      Or if somebody's just sending you memes all the time. Like, I think what's really important is when we're thinking about communication is, like, how do you feel when you're with this person? I don't care how you feel about this person.

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SZ

      And that's, I think, what people misunderstand because when you're with this person, do I feel like I could say anything?

    20. JF

      Right.

    21. SZ

      And have, like, a really good time and we're just chatting, great. That doesn't necessarily mean we'll be in love and be married, but we at least have the first foundation that communication is easy. My biggest thing, you want my biggest green flag? What do they do when you say no?

    22. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SZ

      When you say, "Sorry, I can't make it," or, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I have to reschedule. My mom's coming to town. I didn't realize that I did that. Could we move this to Friday?"

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. SZ

      How do they react? When somebody is coming on really strong and you say, "Hey, I really like you. I think you're great. But I don't move at this pace. I'm a lot slower. Do you think we could slow down and get to know each other more authentically?" How do they react?

    26. JF

      Mm.

    27. SZ

      That right there will show you their true intentions 'cause if it's really about you, they're gonna respect what you say 'cause they care about you. But if it's about how that makes them feel, that's when you'll start to see the attitude and the change and the, "What, I don't do anything right? I'm just trying to be nice." And you're like, "Whoa."

    28. JF

      Yeah.

    29. SZ

      This is no longer about our connection anymore. This is about what you're getting from choosing me or from me potentially choosing you.

  9. 24:07 – 27:28

    Sponsor break + self-worth frame: you’re an addition to my life, not the center

    1. JF

      Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Momentous. I've been working out with Momentous for, I don't know, probably two-plus years, and it is the supplement company that I go to. There are lots of supplement companies out there. To me, Momentous is the standard. Everything that they have I know is good quality, premium products that are researched based and researched backed. And so what I take from them is probably h- a lot of stuff. Their omega-3s I take, their vitamins I take, their recovery I take, their whey protein, and I've also been taking their creatine for a number of years now. And they just came out with a Momentous Signature Spec creatine that I like even better, not only because it's their most advanced creatine that they've come out with, it's also super fine. I- it can mix with anything. And those that are on the go like me and like you, it's really easy to put in and mix with just about any liquid. Right now, you can go to livemomentous.com, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 35% off your first order. So you can try Momentous' Signature Spec creatine for yourself. It's top-notch, believe me. Livemomentous.com. Use the promo code Jefferson for 35% off. Livemomentous.com. Use promo code Jefferson. And now let's keep going. I, I, I believe the way that you, like you said, how they respond to no can be in a very attractive quality-

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      ... or very repulsive quality.

    4. SZ

      Right. My mom always says, too. My, my mom is a brilliant woman. I'll say that all day 'cause I'm like, "This woman has given me nuggets of wisdom."

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SZ

      "I was good before you. I'll be good after. And you are in addition to my life, not instead of."

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SZ

      And I think that we forget about that. Like, you are living this robust, incredible life. Someone would be lucky to be added to your life, so please start acting like it.

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SZ

      As if this person is, "Oh my God, I'm never gonna meet anyone else." There's almost nine billion people. I will assure you that you will.

    11. JF

      [laughs]

    12. SZ

      I can pro- I can put every bo- dollar that I have, you will meet somebody else.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. SZ

      And I think that so many people are scared of saying no because we just wanna be chosen and picked. That's a core belief. That's a childhood wound. That's not necessarily the adult now going, "Wait, picked for what?" Because being chosen isn't always a positive thing.

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SZ

      You could be chosen by somebody that doesn't have capacity or bandwidth for the relationship that you actually require, or that gaslights, that dismisses you, that deflects, right? These are all different things that to me, what's a green flag is can you have a hard conversation? I'll never forget when I first met Ryan. I don't remember what it was about, but there was just something I think that he said or did that, like, I wasn't stoked on. And I remember calling my mom, and I was like, "All right, he's calling me in five minutes. I'm so nervous." I was like, "Mom, but what if he tells me he doesn't wanna date me?" And she's like, "Good. At least you find out after a month."

    17. JF

      [laughs]

    18. SZ

      And I was like, "Meh, she's right." And so we got on the FaceTime, and I told him what I t- I, I think I was just like, "Hey, I really didn't love when you did this." I think it was, like, something he had messed up about whatever. It wasn't a big deal.

    19. JF

      His bowling game.

    20. SZ

      Eh. The g-

    21. JF

      No good

    22. SZ

      ... right. God forbid.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. SZ

      And I remember he stopped and he went, "Thank you for sharing that with me. That wasn't my intention, but my intention doesn't really matter in this case because I hurt you, and so I'd like to actually understand. Could you share me mo- with me more about how did I hurt you and what would you have actually needed in that moment?" Because he felt safe.

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. SZ

      I could go to him and say, "This bothered me," without him getting defensive. Is he a human? Of course, right? There are moments where he'll get defensive and he'll stop and say, "This is not the time and the place. I need to listen."

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SZ

      But I think curiosity is such a beautiful expression of love, and I feel like not enough people... A lot of people are dating because it's like, "You fit here," as opposed to, "I wanna see if we actually align together and wanna build something here together."

  10. 27:28 – 33:45

    Therapy-speak pitfalls and the myth of “If he wanted to, he would”

    1. JF

      You think there's such a thing... I have a lot of questions. Y- y- you think there's such a thing as over, I wanna say the word therapizing the relationship where it's like at the beginning they first talk to you, and it's like, "Actually, I need to s- I need you to speak with authenticity with me, and I can't really tell if you're actually just dumping on me." And like you're using all the therapy words 'cause you've heard all the therapy words and you've read all the therapy words, that in some ways, um, it can... This is just like a, a mental journey that we're going on for a second of is that something that can, you've ever found to be a negative?

    2. SZ

      Oh, if you came and talked to me in that way, I would've been like, "I'm sorry, what?"

    3. JF

      Exactly.

    4. SZ

      Like, what, what... Be a human with me.

    5. JF

      E- e- right. That's what I'm saying. Like, in your first dating, you don't wanna be just like, "Uh, well, excuse me, I think."

    6. SZ

      I think what a lot of people use therapy talk to avoid accountability, right?

    7. JF

      Agree.

    8. SZ

      "That's my trigger," and you're like-

    9. JF

      Yeah

    10. SZ

      ... you don't know what a trigger is.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SZ

      Or, "Well, that's my boundary." Mm, that's a request. That's not a boundary.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. SZ

      I think what's really attractive is when, like, when somebody can say, "You know what? I wanna take ownership. I apologize." Like, someone can say sorry, which is such a wild thing that we even have to say right now.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      But when someone can just say, "I'm so sorry. I never meant to hurt you, but please tell me more."

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SZ

      Enough, right? Thank you, right there. But e- what I look at is when I start to hear the terminology, then I'm like, "Okay, cool. You're putting that onto me. What are you doing?"

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. SZ

      How are you showing up like that? Because it's not just about me and what I need. It's also how am I as a partner.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SZ

      Because how am I loving you? How am I showing up for you? Because you have needs and wants that I might not have.

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. SZ

      But people are way over-therapizing.

    25. JF

      Yeah. I feel like they can weaponize. They've been to a few therapy appointments and they read a book and they're like, "I'm an expert," and this is your... Yeah. I-

    26. SZ

      You've seen the side of the internet of, like, avoidants are the worst, and my avoidant, and you're like, "I'm sorry."

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      "They're not a Tamagotchi."

    29. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    30. SZ

      "Like, this is a human being."

  11. 33:45 – 39:19

    Emotional intelligence vs maturity: deflection, gaslighting, and “you’re insane”

    1. JF

      What would be the number one sign of somebody having low emotional intelligence when it comes to dating?

    2. SZ

      I think low intel- like low emotional intelligence is somebody, 'cause there's a difference, right? There's emotional intelligence and emotional maturity.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SZ

      I think low emotional intelligence is somebody that either tries to stay too much in logic and doesn't understand that feelings are also part of this-

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm

    6. SZ

      ... that can't comprehend and say, "I feel sad right now. I'm feeling upset."

    7. JF

      Right.

    8. SZ

      "I'm frustrated." Because a lot of people try to navigate and mask that by being like, "No, no, but why? Why did you do that?" Instead of saying, "I actually really don't like that you did that."

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SZ

      "It made me feel really dismissed."

    11. JF

      I'm gonna ask the question on emotional maturity.

    12. SZ

      Okay.

    13. JF

      Now, 'cause I think there's, there's, um, it's worth exploring both.

    14. SZ

      Yeah.

    15. JF

      What do you use the number one sign that the person you're dating is emotionally immature?

    16. SZ

      They deflect and don't actually take any ownership of their part in this dynamic.

    17. JF

      What does that sound like?

    18. SZ

      Well, maybe you're just too sensitive when I said that.

    19. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. SZ

      You know, like, okay. Or, "Well, I guess nothing I do is right." You're like, "I didn't, that's not what I said. Like, I would love if you just listened and acknowledged your part in this dynamic."

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. SZ

      Or, "Well, I was busy. I guess I, what, I, I have to be at your beck and call," and you're like-

    23. JF

      Right

    24. SZ

      ... "I haven't talked to you in a week." Things like that where they deflect it back to you so that they avoid any accountability, because that to me just feels like a little child-

    25. JF

      Yeah

    26. SZ

      ... that's like, "No, I didn't do anything wrong."

    27. JF

      You know what I think is, like, the atomic bomb-

    28. SZ

      Yeah

    29. JF

      ... of, of emotional immaturity, on top of other things, is when somebody would text, "You're insane."

    30. SZ

      Yeah.

  12. 39:19 – 46:39

    The ‘I can change them’ trap—and what readiness for a relationship really means

    1. JF

      Mm-hmm. H- uh, what do you say to the person who is dating right now and goes, "Well, I think I can change them"?

    2. SZ

      Good luck. Did you change your parents?

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. SZ

      People change when they are ready to change. They do the work. I'll tell you this. I've, from where my partner and I started to where he is now, total difference of a human, but it was one small, minute thing that we worked on. It wasn't 100 aspects.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SZ

      He was an amazing person, kind, gent, but he just needed to learn that it was safe for him to express himself, because in his childhood he couldn't. But do you understand how hard it is to change? It's not that you can't-

    7. JF

      Yeah

    8. SZ

      ... but if you see somebody, right, and there's difference, I think there's potential. Like, they're in medical school. I can handle that potential, right?

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. SZ

      Or law school, right? They're, they're gonna be fine. They'll be fine.

    11. JF

      [laughs]

    12. SZ

      They'll, they'll be fine.

    13. JF

      [laughs]

    14. SZ

      That's potential I'll bet on. I'm like, yeah, they're driven. They're motivated. They just haven't gotten there yet. I can believe in that.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      But the potential of like, well, when I'm done with them, it's like you can't love somebody into loving you the way that you need. You can't love someone into changing in the ways that you need, but eventually you do have to accept them.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. SZ

      'Cause I couldn't change my dad, as hard as I tried, and I couldn't change these people. When you don't have the capacity, the bandwidth, and the emotional maturity, it doesn't matter how much I love you, you're not going to be able to reciprocate that in the ways that I need.

    19. JF

      Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth, and they've been a sponsor of this podcast for a long time. Why? Because everything they have is just so doggone cozy. Right now, out in the world, I'm feeling this cool front, and it's getting cooler outside. It feels so good, and you know what that means. It's time to bust out your hoodies, your sweatshirts. Bust out those sweatpants. But truly, I've already been wearing those sweatpants. You know what I'm saying? It's about that time. And if you're looking for clothes that are comfortable and nice and easy to wear, and when you're working from home or when you're traveling or when you're out doing whatever you're doing over the weekend, let me tell you, place to be on your body is cozy, and you're looking at Cozy Earth. Right now you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 20% off your order. Cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 20% off. I'm about to go put my hoodie on right now. All right, let's keep going. How do you know when you're ready to be in a relationship?

    20. SZ

      When you're ready to be in a relationship?

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SZ

      I think when you're ready to get hurt again, because relationships can be very painful at times, and you have to be okay with an ending.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SZ

      To me, that's, like, what makes a healthy relationship is I know it could end at any time because we're two adults making that choice.

    25. JF

      It's also what makes it precious.

    26. SZ

      Right? It's beautiful, that I know if my partner came to me tomorrow and was like, "Babe, we've hit the end of our road," it's like, "Okay, let's talk about it."

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      Right? Like, let's un- let me understand this. I'd cry. I'd be sad. But that's what makes a relationship so healthy. If you, if I need you in my life, that's a dangerous place, versus I want you in my life.

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SZ

      I want you. I'm making conscious choices, and we're doing this together. But I need you is I'm not okay if I don't have you. And so I think that's when you know you're ready for a relationship is when you want them in your life, but you don't necessarily need them.

  13. 46:39 – 50:11

    Attunement: reading needs, meeting in the middle, and mutual compromise

    1. JF

      You used a, a word that caught my attention a minute ago. You said attune.

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JF

      Attunement. For those that aren't familiar with it, AKA most of the guys, can you define what that word means?

    4. SZ

      So attuning to someone's needs really stems down from childhood, right? Our caregivers, that's where attachment styles came from, how often they attune to your needs.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SZ

      And so as a caregiver, your kid cries, you attune to them. You pick them up. You see is it their diaper, is it food, is it, what do they need? So how-

    7. JF

      Being able to match the, the demand of what's required in that moment.

    8. SZ

      Correct.

    9. JF

      Being able to-

    10. SZ

      What is it they need? And so as an adult now, let's say, you know, the famous woman will say, "I'm fine," and a guy that's, "Oh, well, she said she's fine."

    11. JF

      Yeah, ooh. [laughs]

    12. SZ

      And you're like, yeah, you didn't attune to her need. Whereas maybe, or you see her and she's, you know, viciously cleaning the counter and looks at you. Attuning to her needs would go-

    13. JF

      Yeah

    14. SZ

      ... you look overwhelmed right now. Let me help you.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      That's understanding that maybe this person can't vocalize it. Maybe they're so in their head. Maybe they need something.

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SZ

      What can I do to help make your life a little easier?

    19. JF

      Yeah. I'll, I'm gonna give the, the way that it's helped me understand that word, because I, I, there was a time I struggled with that idea, that word, and I'd wrestle with it, is if I take the word tune and I go, okay, I'm tuning to the frequency of your s- of your signal, because I'm on FM pop hits and you're AM static in that moment. I, I need to go adjust my tuning knob so I can stop hearing static and start hearing, you know, whatever song that you're playing. Um, probably some Bruce Springsteen or somebody. I don't... [laughs] Uh, you know, so something that's g- we're gonna Be able to meet in the, the middle on. So that, that's at least helped me on that idea of attuning because I think a lot of people, uh, men and women, we just, we miss, we miss it

    20. SZ

      All the time. It's the same with like when you, let's say you go out and the girl's licking her lips and biting it, staring at you, and you're like, "Attune to it. Kiss her."

    21. JF

      Right.

    22. SZ

      Like grab, do something here. Like take the moment where you can. If, she'll tell you if it's not working. Like if she, "No, no, thank you." Don't worry, she'll tell you. But sometimes you just gotta go for it. And I think people forget that relationships aren't just about what you do for me, it's also about how I show up for you.

    23. JF

      Mm.

    24. SZ

      And we're so focused on like, "Are my needs met? Are you doing what I need?" That we forget there's another human in this equation, and there's another person in this dynamic that also has their needs and wants.

    25. JF

      Mm.

    26. SZ

      Right? I want to be with my partner more often. He loves alone time. Sunday, football day, right? Like that's his day, football. He plays his little FIFA, he's got the little n- he's got his Nintendo Switch. Like, that's his thing.

    27. JF

      Hey, hey, hey. It's, that's big stuff.

    28. SZ

      That's big stuff.

    29. JF

      Yeah, yeah. Okay.

    30. SZ

      Oh, I'm, trust me-

  14. 50:11 – 59:29

    Breadcrumbing and situationships: intermittent reinforcement that keeps you hooked

    1. JF

      Um, what is breadcrumbing?

    2. SZ

      Breadcrumbing is when they give you just enough to keep you on the hook, but not enough to satisfy your needs. So what that actually looks like in practice might be they flame your story on Instagram, but they're not actually making a plan. They keep telling you, "We should do something soon," but they're not actually moving the p- the relationship forward. So they're giving you enough to keep you in that dopamine loop of like maybe the-

    3. JF

      Mm

    4. SZ

      ... maybe. It's intermittent reinforcement. Maybe they'll give me a little. Maybe this time. Maybe this, when I turn this corner, this will be the time they choose me. But they never fully choose you. You're always the option, not the choice.

    5. JF

      Mm. It's kind of like a, the hopes at a casino on a slot machine. Like you're just-

    6. SZ

      Yeah

    7. JF

      ... maybe you get a little bit and you're like, "Okay, that's enough for me to continue on-

    8. SZ

      Right

    9. JF

      ... 10 more minutes."

    10. SZ

      You got $2 and you're like, "Sweet."

    11. JF

      Yeah, exactly.

    12. SZ

      "Okay, I didn't lose all of it." You didn't get the jackpot, though.

    13. JF

      Right.

    14. SZ

      Because we know, like typically speaking, we only obsess over people that don't make us feel safe.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      Because if somebody's super clear and consistent and safe, you're probably not gonna obsess over them.

    17. JF

      Say that again for me. We what?

    18. SZ

      Typically, we only obsess over people that don't make us feel safe.

    19. JF

      Hmm.

    20. SZ

      That's why we want this so badly. Because what happens, when your brain, our brain is a predictive machine. It's designed to keep you safe. It is not here to help you grow. That, your brain does not, that's not why it's made. So if it's a predictive machine, then it knows, like if Jefferson, let's say hypothetically in this scenario you and I are dating.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SZ

      And you are consistent and I never have to worry about you, you're reliable-

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm

    24. SZ

      ... you're painfully always on time, and if I'm used to highs and lows because that's what love was for me, I'll go, "Eh, it's boring," 'cause it's predictable.

    25. JF

      Right.

    26. SZ

      Versus the person that flamed the story, that asked me if I was up at 9:00, or what are you doing, but never is qui- just out of reach. That's where my brain goes, "This is valuable." Because when we have something we perceive as value and there's inconsistency, it creates novelty. Who doesn't want novelty? If I told you, "This is the only copy of this book. No one else could have it, only you."

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. SZ

      You'd be like, "Oh, I want that."

    29. JF

      Right.

    30. SZ

      But if I told you, "You could get this at any store everywhere," you're, "Yeah, okay, I'll get it."

  15. 59:29 – 1:12:36

    How to stop breadcrumbing others—and how to break up with clarity and kindness

    1. JF

      Is there a way to know if you are breadcrumbing somebody?

    2. SZ

      I think what we're, we're trying to look at is does the pinch match the ouch? So the amount of effort you're showing, are they showing 10 times more? So you'll see that like the minute you're like, "Hey, we should do something," and then all of a sudden they send you like 17 calendar dates. They're trying to lock this in, and you're like, "Oh, I didn't mean that."

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. SZ

      Right? Start to look at does it feel reciprocal? 'Cause if you're like, "We should..." So in LA there's, um, the terminology maybe, we'll see, and I'll let you know all mean you're never gonna see that person. So if you're like, "Hey, do you wanna do something?" "I'll let you know," you're not gonna see them.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SZ

      Or, "Do you wanna do something?" "Maybe." Ain't gonna happen.

    7. JF

      [laughs]

    8. SZ

      "We'll see." Not gonna happen. You're not gonna see that person.

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. SZ

      Unless there's a like, "Yes, I'm in. I'll see you at 2:00," and even then you might not see that person.

    11. JF

      Right.

    12. SZ

      But I think you'll know you're breadcrumbing somebody when you start to notice that they are giving so much more than you are, and you start to feel a little overwhelmed 'cause you're like, "Oh, this doesn't feel balanced anymore."

    13. JF

      How do you fix that? If you, if you notice, if somebody's listening right now and they go, "Okay, I- I have this thing, maybe it's a situationship even, uh, and they're going, somebody is texting me a whole lot more than I'm texting them, and I don't know how to be like, "Hey, stop." You know what I mean? [laughs] Like how do you, how, how do they fix that without ruining the relationship?

    14. SZ

      Well, so that's the thing. You might ruin it because being honest might mean that the other person goes, "Oh, then never mind. I'm not interested." And so what I would say, I would be more concerned and more focused on being honest than I would about managing the other person's feelings and expectations because I can't control how you receive that.

    15. JF

      Sure.

    16. SZ

      So what I would say is, "Hey, I've noticed that this doesn't feel reciprocal anymore, and I just wanna be really clear with you and level set, I'm not interested in a relationship. I really enjoy spending time with you, but I'm not trying to build anything beyond what we have, and I wanna make sure that that works for you, too."

    17. JF

      Hmm. Okay, so do you, are you of the opinion that you should tell somebody why you're not interested?

    18. SZ

      [laughs]

    19. JF

      Like s- how specific should you be?

    20. SZ

      I think that if there's something that it's on you, like I'm going through something right now, I'm about to get a promotion and move cross-country, I'm not trying to build anything with someone, fair. But I don't think you need to be mean to someone. If you're like, "Hey, by the way, oh, I don't find you attractive," it's like-

    21. JF

      [laughs]

    22. SZ

      ... maybe don't say that, right?

    23. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    24. SZ

      Like, maybe don't be that honest.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. SZ

      But it's maybe just saying, like I don't think you need to lie, but just saying like, "I feel more of a friendship connection with you than I do a romantic connection with you."

    27. JF

      Okay.

    28. SZ

      Or, right? Like, "I enjoy our intimacy, but I don't actually think we're compatible long-term because I like this and you like this, and I don't see that that's not the type of partner that I want in the future."

    29. JF

      Right. Right.

    30. SZ

      That I think you can, but don't attack the person or their character. Maybe talk about the why that you're not compatible.

  16. 1:12:36 – 1:17:57

    Sabrina’s book ‘Why Am I Like This?’: blending stories, psychology, and reparenting tools

    1. JF

      I want you to tell me about your, your new book that's about to come out. Super excited for you.

    2. SZ

      Thank you.

    3. JF

      Let me tell you, um, it's, there's gonna be a before life book and an after life book, so I'm, I'm, I'm very excited for what you have out. Why Am I Like This? is the title of the book. Um, tell me what, about this book and where the title came from.

    4. SZ

      I ask this question all the time. I was like, "What's wrong with me?"

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. SZ

      I used to think, I was like, "Am I damaged good?"

    7. JF

      Why am I like this?

    8. SZ

      Why am I like this? Like, 'cause I... That's why I start the book level setting, being like, all right, I was a hot mess. I was that girl that just, I was so anxious, I was just, I couldn't sit still. And I really, what I tried to do is, like, is it revolutionary? There are concepts in there you'll recognize. You'll be like, "Oh, the nervous system. Attachment styles."

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SZ

      But what I tried to do is create a cohesion of, like, this is where you learned it from. This is how it manifests. 'Cause it's careers, there are p- married couples that I've worked with. It's a lot of clients, but it's a lot of me. And so I share stories that I've never, like, how I almost got kidnapped as a kid.

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SZ

      How my brother was taken. Like, there's so many really monumental moments, and it's crazy 'cause you have books, you'll understand this.

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SZ

      You read it and you're like, "Wow, this changed my life," and it's, like, six paragraphs.

    15. JF

      [laughs]

    16. SZ

      So when you see it in print, you're like-

    17. JF

      Just two sentences

    18. SZ

      ... "Is it?"

    19. JF

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    20. SZ

      And it's like, "And this changed my entire life?" And I really wanted to meet people where they're at and blend psychology, neuroscience, and the me. Everything that I've ever learned and all of the things that I've gone through so that people feel a little less alone. And then at the end, it's called your bull- blueprint.

    21. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. SZ

      And so I help you dismantle all of the things that you have learned, because here's the thing. It's not about blaming and sharing, shaming your parents, but it is about holding them accountable for what they taught you.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SZ

      And that we can hold two conflicting thoughts of, like, I love my mom, but she really didn't teach me the things I needed to know as a kid. And so by doing that, I can then reparent myself, I can do the work that I need to do on myself so that I get to show up as the adult woman that I am and not the little girl that thinks that she needs to protect me.

    25. JF

      A lot of... Does it dive a lot into, or at least explain some of the major themes of family of origin type work?

    26. SZ

      IFS, like internal family systems.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      And I love it.

    29. JF

      I can tell.

    30. SZ

      I lo- It's my thing.

Episode duration: 1:17:58

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode tOVL0l7hrns

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome