The Fear That’s Secretly Hurting Your Relationship with Dr. John Delony

Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter I flew to Nashville, sat in Dr. John Delony’s studio, and we had the kind of friend-to-friend talk I wish everyone could hear. We got honest about anxiety—how I’ve felt it in my own body—and why our “imaginary fights” leave us overheated before a real conversation even starts. John shared the two moves that changed my playbook: bring calm (it spreads) and tell the truth (facts are kind). We dug into abandonment fears, childhood stuff that sneaks into marriage, and that gut-punch line: “You marry your unfinished business.” If you’ve ever felt anxious mid-conversation, or avoided a hard talk because you were scared of losing someone, this episode gives you practical steps to reset, reconnect, and talk like you actually want to be heard. Thank you to our Sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. https://cozyearth.com/pages/jefferson Pique. Head to https://PiqueLife.com/jefferson for 20% off. Momentous. Visit https://www.livemomentous.com/ and use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first order. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostDr. John Delonyguest

Sep 16, 202557mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

65 min read · 13,009 words

0:00 – 1:09
Live from Delony’s studio: why communication and anxiety are inseparable
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you feel like this looks a little bit different, because it is a little bit different. My family's up here around Nashville, checking out the area, saying hi to some friends. And while I was up here, I contacted one of my very best friends, said, "Hey, why don't I just come and talk to you in your own studio?" It is the one, the only, Dr. John Delony. What's up, man?
2. JDDr. John Delony
  What's going on, man?
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Have you ever been on this side of the chair?
4. JDDr. John Delony
  I've never been on this side of the chair. This is fantastic.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, this is awesome. So we're recording in the Dr. John Delony Show studio.
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Which is way cooler than mine, I gotta say. I really, really like it. Your team's incredible.
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  So it's been great to sit here and be with everybody. In case you're not familiar with Dr. John Delony, not only is he a very good friend, he is somebody with two, not just one PhD, two PhDs. He is a bestselling author. He is a mental health expert. You, you're, I would say-
10. JDDr. John Delony
  It's kind of, kind of a stretch
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... I, well-
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Kind of a stretch
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... I'd say expertise in crisis response.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  There you go. There you go.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  And, uh, all things related to navigating anxiety. How'd I do there?
16. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah, man.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Awesome.
18. JDDr. John Delony
  That's it.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] Yeah.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  Good.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Great. Okay, cool. [laughs]
22. JDDr. John Delony
  You rattled that off better than I do.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  That, yeah.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Well, man, thank you so much for, uh, just sitting down with me for a little bit and having a conversation.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  Appreciate it.
1:09 – 2:54
The “imaginary argument” problem: how silence creates anxiety loops
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  So biggest thing that you know in my podcast and my, my whole area is communication.
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  So one of the things I'm most curious about are what are some of the things that we do in communication that make our anxiety worse or better?
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Ooh, good question. Um, probably we don't communicate at all.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
6. JDDr. John Delony
  We hold it, and then we imagine ... A thing happens, I get inside your head and decide why you did what you just did-
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
8. JDDr. John Delony
  ... or why you didn't do what you, what you should have done, what I think you should have done, and I have an imaginary interaction with you, and then I have a physiological response to that fight or that discussion we just had that we didn't have.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  And so as I've traveled across the country, I hear this the most, that people have that imaginary conversation in the shower.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  It's, it's the only time there's no phone, there's no nothing.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  And they're in there, and the hot water's shooting down their back, and they think to themselves, "Man, Jefferson didn't even call."
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  It's like, "That dude never calls, and he..." And then I'm off to the races.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
18. JDDr. John Delony
  And so I have this imaginary communication that I never have, and then you're just out there having coffee, and I walk out, and I am halfway through a fight-
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] Yeah
20. JDDr. John Delony
  ... that we did not even know we were in.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  That you were like, "Hey, man." And I'm like-
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
24. JDDr. John Delony
  ... "Don't hey me," and it's off, off to the races.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  I definitely, I have those conversations in the car.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  Oh, do you?
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mine are in the car. If it's quiet in the car, you kinda just have that argument out in your head, and you're like, "Oh." And all of a sudden, you kinda get worked up-
30. JDDr. John Delony
  Oh, you-
2:54 – 6:26
What anxiety is really solving for: fear of being left
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. Do you find that when people are having anxiety, like in that moment when they're coming to you, and they're like, "I just feel..." I mean, your, your book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you wrote all about this.
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's a wonderful book for anybody who has not listened to it.
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Thank you.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  I grabbed it. You need to get it. Um, when I first had my ... I've shared when I first had my panic attack-
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... you were the one, one of the first people that I reached out to. Like, "What is this? What is this feeling? I don't know what's going on."
8. JDDr. John Delony
  [laughs]
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Um, that in, in communication especially, what I have found that builds a lot of anxiety is when we not only, like you said, have these assumptions of w- we're doing the thinking for them.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  We're already assuming, but also it's the fear of the unknown, of I don't know what's going to, to happen.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm doing everything wrong. What do you find in your expertise-
14. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... and the people that have come to you that when they're in that state of anxiety, what's the number one thing that's on their mind? Like, what do they need fixed?
16. JDDr. John Delony
  Hmm. So I think I'll answer it this way. I don't think, outside of a bell curve, right?
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
18. JDDr. John Delony
  There's way over here and way over here. But I think most people assume that if I'm anxious, there's something wrong with me, and I don't operate that way.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  I think usually your body's right.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  To answer that question at the deepest level, um, whenever we do a marriage retreat, one of the things I always do-
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
24. JDDr. John Delony
  ... halfway through the thing, is to have everybody look directly at their spouse-
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
26. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and say the words, I say, "Only say this if you mean it. I will never leave."
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh. [laughs]
28. JDDr. John Delony
  And beneath, like the how to fight and how to-
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
30. JDDr. John Delony
  ... how to repair relationships and sex and money, all those things, I'll never leave. Without fail, it's just a room of sobbing people because I think beneath that, that layer is my boss is gonna fire me. My son is gonna turn his head and walk away. My wife is, if she knew, she's gonna leave. And so all this theater and all this buildup is there's gonna be a breaking of a relationship that we can't come back from. And so there's something powerful about having a stake in the ground. I'm never gonna leave. And when you're tethered that way, when your boss is like, "I'm never gonna fire you."
6:26 – 8:00
Childhood signals and adult insecurity: the Astros story and the ‘unlovable’ conclusion
1. JDDr. John Delony
  Well, and yeah, if you're a kid-
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
3. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and mom is scrolling, the biology is your body's trying to solve what's more, why is that thing more beautiful than me? Why does that thing have more value than me?
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's a great way of putting it.
5. JDDr. John Delony
  I remember when Hank, um, my son, when I moved to Nashville, the one gift I bought myself was a Major League ticket for, to watch the Astros. Lifelong Houston Astros fan, obsessive. That's the one thing I bought myself, and I would get home from my new job, and it was too much, and it was just, I'd never been the chief officer at a, at a place like that big.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
7. JDDr. John Delony
  I was, get home, and I would collapse. And so we went from being in Texas, we played baseball all the time. Him and I were always playing catch, whatever, to watching it.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
9. JDDr. John Delony
  And one day, he's five or six. There's no manipulation here at all. He just said, "Dad, do you love me as much as the Astros?" And I just went, turned it off. Like, like that's it.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Wow.
11. JDDr. John Delony
  'Cause he was just asking, "We used to do these things together. We're not."
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yes.
13. JDDr. John Delony
  I wonder, what is this awesome? Why is this awesome? And his body's asking, "Why is that more important to your father than to me?" Because X, a thousand years ago, that meant you're on your own, and kids can't be on their own. And I have, I have taken that with me all the way till I'm 40 years old, 50 years old, 60 years old-
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
15. JDDr. John Delony
  ... is that if there's a fracture in a relationship, it's because I'm unlovable.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yes.
17. JDDr. John Delony
  I did a thing, or I'm not as good as. And man, I will fight you for that.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
19. JDDr. John Delony
  I will cuddle up next to you. I will squash myself for 30 years.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
21. JDDr. John Delony
  Any wants and desires, whatever, I'll squash all that just to be in a relationship with you.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
8:00 – 10:00
“Leakage”: when suppressed stress escapes through the wrong fights
1. JDDr. John Delony
  And eventually, it, it explodes. In counseling, we call that leakage. It will find a way out, and usually it's-
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Can you define that for the listeners, what leakage is?
3. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah, it's this sense, it's your body will have to exhale all that stuff you shove down. And so if you're scared about finances, it will come out yelling at somebody for leaving the cereal bowl out. "Pick up your stuff." Like-
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right
5. JDDr. John Delony
  ... it's nothing to do with it. Or it will build and build. Um, it, I'll, I'm gonna overgeneralize it here.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7. JDDr. John Delony
  But it's often the wife of 35 years-
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm
9. JDDr. John Delony
  ... who worked a full-time job and took care of 100% of the housework, and every time husband came home from eight hours at the golf course and was like, "Hey, I'm gonna move all of our money out of this 401 [k] into this investment. My buddy's got a..."
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm.
11. JDDr. John Delony
  Like, all that comes out in this.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
13. JDDr. John Delony
  And then he's like, "Well, what, what are you so mad about?" All right, the shoes are by the door.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
15. JDDr. John Delony
  And it's like, "You never..." And it all comes out.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
17. JDDr. John Delony
  And so if you will be diligent about checking in once a week, if you do those things to have exit stra- I mean, I, I think of it like a steam engine, like tss.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
19. JDDr. John Delony
  If you have those check-in points, if you have those connection points, um, it doesn't build and build and build, but it will come out, right?
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
21. JDDr. John Delony
  It'll come out in addiction. It will come out some way.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  I can definitely see that. Like, my, my own mom, she was the type that her mother didn't give her anything.
23. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  She was the type that if her mother lent her $1.92-
25. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... she better come back with $1.92. You know, "Where are my pennies?"
27. JDDr. John Delony
  Right.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Uh, and so she would have two to three jobs. She paid for her own wedding, her own wedding dress. I mean, she did everything.
29. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  And so I can see that now as an adult, like, that comes out in so many different ways of managing-
10:00 – 14:56
Parents, loneliness, and grief: how fractured family ties shape adult communication
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... I, I do. I'm curious with, I wanna talk about parents-
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... now, like adults, um, like our parents, to where, how do you feel that we communicate... Let me rephrase this. How does our relationship with our parents impact how we communicate now, for better or for worse? And let's take it in the, the worse category.
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  If you don't have a good relationship with your father-
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... for example, there might be somebody listening who didn't have a good relationship or didn't really have a father-
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or a bad relationship with their mother or really didn't have a mother. How do you find that that now, when you're talking to them-
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... and they come to you, and they have those kind of, what would they say, the mom issues-
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or the dad issues, how do you find that that resonates in their life?
14. JDDr. John Delony
  I mean, it ricochets through every square inch of their life. Um, you go looking for a maternal figure or a father figure in all kinds of ways. And really underneath that-
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
16. JDDr. John Delony
  ... you try to find people to plug that gap that you can anchor into. And so now, um, I say this flippantly, but it's-
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
18. JDDr. John Delony
  ... it's, I say it 'cause I have to, 'cause it's, it's devastating. We, we've created-
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
20. JDDr. John Delony
  ... the loneliest generation in human history. We all connect. Like, that, that's a big, like that's why I call you. We're all like, "Lady, let's-
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
22. JDDr. John Delony
  ... see each other in person."
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  'Cause otherwise it can get real quick that we just text. That's it.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  And that's it.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  That's just our life. And so your body will anchor into a political party now. Your body will anchor into a sports team. Your body will anchor into anything, desperately seeking that one, that one call, um, "Hey, John, I just wanna let you know I'm really proud of you."
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  I had a, there's a psychiatrist. I was at a business event, and she was, she had managed to stay open during COVID, and she basically gobbled up all the other business. And so-
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm
30. JDDr. John Delony
  ... when COVID lifted, she had e- like, her practice was crushing.
14:56 – 18:28
You marry your unfinished business: projecting childhood needs onto a spouse
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  And that, that's where it went. But I, what I find in communication, a lot of the questions that I get, that same type of thing where somebody, it's usually a spouse, will put the other spouse on, like, a pedestal-
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... to where they want, how they wanted their dad or their mom to be. And then when they communicate, it's, they're almost talking to the parent.
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Always.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  To, to their parent-
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... not really to the spouse that's them. They have, like, this, this gold standard that their spouse can never meet, could never, it doesn't matter.
8. JDDr. John Delony
  'Cause it's not real.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Exactly.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  And it's all in their head-
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Uh-huh
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... of what they wanted their dad to be-
14. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or their mom to be.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  It's, it's in their nervous system. It, it's, it's called, um, the, the old marriage counseling phrase is you marry your unfinished business. And-
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Say that again. You marry your-
18. JDDr. John Delony
  You marry your unfinished business. And it's not an adult in your head kinda thing. It is a nine-year-old kid saying, "What was it about me that was less important than your job? What was it about me that was less important than your beauty regimen," or whatever.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, or ... And it can be as benign as this. And it ... W- we way overuse the word trauma, so I don't wanna do that, but if you were nine years old during the low-fat era, right, when the only thing that mattered was that you were skinny. That was it, right?
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  That was it. And Jane Fonda and the, the leggings and the-
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm, mm
24. JDDr. John Delony
  ... cardio for 20-
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  So and the, yeah, yeah.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone was on a diet 24/7, 365.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  And my mom had all the tapes.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  Oh, gosh.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Never watched them, but yeah, yeah.
30. JDDr. John Delony
  There was videos, tapes, the Walkman.
18:28 – 21:47
Sponsor break + why abandonment fear makes every conflict feel ‘life or death’
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Before we keep going, this episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. One thing that I love about Cozy Earth is their bedsheets and their bath towels. I am officially at the age where I really care about [laughs] that kind of stuff. Um, I care a lot about what I'm sleeping in, and when I'm traveling, it's, there's nothing worse than knowing that that's not your bed. It's not how it feels. The sheets aren't great. I've never had to worry about that with Cozy Earth. Once we put them on our bedsheets at home on every single bed, it's been a game-changer. So if you're like me and you enjoy having cool, cozy sheets, I'm gonna encourage you to go to cozyearth.com/jefferson for 40% off. That's an entire 40% off, y'all. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson. That's the key. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. They have a 100-night risk-free trial, so what's stopping you? Go to Cozy Earth. How do you see the fear of abandonment come up in communication, or at least manifest? I know we talked about leakage-
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... and how it spreads throughout everything. Specifically the fear of abandonment, I see that a lot in emails that I get-
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... of people saying, "I wanna argue. I wanna have a conversation," but they're always, that they make this conversation feel like this is the very last one they're ever going to have, and they feel like this is either life or death kinda conversation.
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  And I, it, it prevents me from having the difficult talks-
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... with them because they feel like if, if there's any kind of struggle, any kind of conflict, they wanna avoid it. Why? Because if we actually talk about it-
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... he's gone. She's gone.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  He's gone.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  Well, and I think one of my core tenets is you have to choose reality. If that's true, if they're actually gonna leave, then y'all need to have that conversation.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  'Cause they're already gone.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
18. JDDr. John Delony
  They've already left you. They're just staying on the couch, right? Most of the time we end up having a lot of proxy wars. You don't make enough money. I don't like the way you dress. You're always on playing video games. Those are all proxy wars, and y- we fight at that surface level and never get to the actual issue.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Define proxy wars for me.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, it's a, it's a w- a proxy war in a household is, I mean, it, they happen at the global level too-
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
22. JDDr. John Delony
  ... right? But it's a battle over here. China and the US, if they got in a fight, everybody dies, so they're gonna fund this little country to fight that little country. They're gonna check out each other's technology. They're gonna see, what are y'all doing? How do y'all respond to this?
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  But we're not gonna fight you 'cause that fight is too costly.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Little battles. Yeah, yeah.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  It's little battles all over the place-
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Okay
28. JDDr. John Delony
  ... about silly things or dumb things or even big things, right?
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
30. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, but most of the time those things are fought over here. There's a little tiny, there's, there's peace.
21:47 – 24:42
‘I’m fine’ and the power of not forcing disclosure
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  When you hear somebody say, you ask them how they are and they say, "I'm fine. I'm fine," now with your two PhDs-
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... how do you see that situation when they say, "I'm fine"-
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... but they're anything but fine?
6. JDDr. John Delony
  I have two... Well, it depends on if I'm in a close relationship with somebody.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Let's say it is. Let's say you're in a re- uh-
8. JDDr. John Delony
  If I, if I saw you-
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm
10. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and we were hanging out, I was like, "You doing good?" And you're like, "I'm fine."
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  I would know, no you're not. And so I would have a good enough relationship with you, and I would say, "Dude, you're not. We don't have to talk about it, but you're not."
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  "And if you wanna talk about it, we can."
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Well, that's an important point, though, of not forcing the conversation.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  No.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  But just knowing, I know you-
18. JDDr. John Delony
  I think, you know, I see-
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yes
20. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and the door is open. I'm not gonna drag you through that door.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  And I think in, in, especially in, in romantic relationships, one partner tries to just drag the other person through that door. "We're talking right now. You never wanna..."
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's the worst.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  You're right.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  So I'm not gonna do that, but I would need you to know I see that.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Okay.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  If I don't know you, I almost never ask the question, "How are you?" Because that's such a, you don't wanna know, right? That my mom's got cancer.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] Yeah.
30. JDDr. John Delony
  You don't wanna know that I might lose my job.
24:42 – 29:23
Crisis response communication: ‘calm is contagious’ in high-stakes moments
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, no, I, I think that's, I think that's right. With your, um, experience in crisis response, I wanna go there for a little bit, uh, what have you seen shake out, or for our listeners, if there's something that they could take away of when you've s- gone into these crisis situations communication-wise
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... what is kind of your first priority when you're dealing with crisis management, when you're dealing with there's a, this is a bad situation, how do you, how do you start to break this apart? How do you start to break it down? What are you really looking for?
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, for me, the, the most important line I was ever given by the guy who trained me, Dr. Young trained me, calm is contagious. If-
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm
6. JDDr. John Delony
  ... I'm showing up to a scene or to a situation and I go running and I'm like, "What's going on?"
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
8. JDDr. John Delony
  I've just brought my crazy to this madness, right?
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yes.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  And so one of the rules was if at all possible, walk. Walk to the scene. Um, and bring a calm presence, and it just has a contagion effect to everybody exhales. And then maybe the one person isn't exhaling, and that's the person you wanna go sit with.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Can you... I want, I wanna make sure the, that my audience understands the significance of the things that you're walking into.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  So can you define for them, when I say you're crisis management, you're tra- uh, that kind of crisis-
14. JDDr. John Delony
  I've walked into an active shooter situation-
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  There we go
16. JDDr. John Delony
  ... at a, at a, at a, at a college, at your school-
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
18. JDDr. John Delony
  ... I, I mean, that we were both at.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, I've walked into rooms where somebody has a child who's passed away in the next room.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  Right? They're... I mean, this is, it's bad.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, I've walked into a room where there is blood and guts and, and it's been wild stuff.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  And there may be police officers in there-
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
28. JDDr. John Delony
  ... who aren't, who aren't breathing or EMS folks-
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
30. JDDr. John Delony
  ... who are, like, got their hands on their knees, right?
29:23 – 34:30
‘Facts are your friends’: direct truth-telling from tragedy to marriage talks
1. JDDr. John Delony
  Then the next one is facts are your friends.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Facts are your friends.
3. JDDr. John Delony
  And so-
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Tell us about that
5. JDDr. John Delony
  ... that would be showing up to a door-
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
7. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and there was just a car wreck, and a husband passed away.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
9. JDDr. John Delony
  Right?
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  And you gotta go tell-
11. JDDr. John Delony
  We gotta go tell mom. We gotta go tell his wife.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
13. JDDr. John Delony
  And we show up to the door, and there'd be some fumbling, some, "Ma'am, it was raining, and..." Right? So she opens the door, and there's somebody in a full uniform or three guys.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  What's wrong? What's happened? Yeah.
15. JDDr. John Delony
  It was raining outside. W-
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
17. JDDr. John Delony
  You open that door.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  They already know.
19. JDDr. John Delony
  "Ma'am, there's a car wreck and your husband has died."
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
21. JDDr. John Delony
  I'm gonna say that. And then we will c- I'll be here sturdy to catch that jet blast, and usually there's two or three, like, somebody collapses, somebody starts screaming, somebody says, "No. No, it didn't." Right?
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
23. JDDr. John Delony
  And whatever their problem solving is is, is separate, right?
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
25. JDDr. John Delony
  But there's that phone call you make. Um, your son's passed away.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
27. JDDr. John Delony
  Right? And or your son's on life support, your daughter's on life support, I need you to get on a plane tonight and get here as soon as you possibly can. What, what? Your daughter's on life support. I need you to get here as soon as you possibly can. When you arrive, I'll c- I'll clue you in. Um, or when I would call parents in the middle of the night, and I've probably done this, gosh, like, 100 times, 200 times, call a parent and say, "I-" This is Dr. John Delony from whatever university. Your child is living and they are safe. That's how I'd start that conversation.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Because that's what they wanna know.
29. JDDr. John Delony
  And now-
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
34:30 – 37:53
Margin, money, and anxiety as a dashboard light—not an enemy
1. JDDr. John Delony
  They wanna know, "Am I fired? Am I fired? Am I fired? Am I fired?" And honestly, like talking about anxiety, that's why it's such a big deal to me to take care of on a day-to-day basis all that other stuff.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
3. JDDr. John Delony
  All your other life stuff. You can have that conversation, which I've had with a, with a boss. "If you swear at me again, I walk out that door and I don't come back."
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
5. JDDr. John Delony
  But I can only say that if I don't owe anybody any money.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] That's true.
7. JDDr. John Delony
  Right?
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
9. JDDr. John Delony
  I can only say that if me and my wife chose to live in a 900 square foot rental house for a long, long time, and we drove comically hilarious, cheap, ridiculous cars that barely started for years-
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
11. JDDr. John Delony
  ... so that... 'Cause it's cool to act all like tough, like, "Bottom line," right?
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
13. JDDr. John Delony
  And there's some data on when women just draw the line and they leave, his net worth goes up and hers falls off a cliff for a season-
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
15. JDDr. John Delony
  ... right? And so there's a, there's realities to it that make it cool when I'm like, "You just need to..." All right, man, there's a cost to that.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
17. JDDr. John Delony
  And your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing that's the cliff, right? And so anxiety's like, can, can be a great, um... It's just the lights on your dashboard, man. It's the smoke alarm in your kitchen. It, it is a way to get your attention to say, "Hey, I'm recognizing here that you're not stable. You're not okay."
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  That, that's a good point to make. The, the... And I remember you telling me this when I was having my, you know, my introduction to it.
19. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Anxiety is not a inherently bad thing. It is, it can be very much the signals on the dashboard of letting you know your meters of how, it's just a reflection of how your body's doing.
21. JDDr. John Delony
  Right. So think about this like if we just back up and go a thousand years.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
23. JDDr. John Delony
  If you are a successful husband, father, and tradesman, a professional-
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
25. JDDr. John Delony
  ... right? Whether you're making shoes or you're, you're an attorney or you're a-
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Whatever
27. JDDr. John Delony
  ... roofer.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Hmm.
29. JDDr. John Delony
  And suddenly two million people are bombing you with all sorts of-
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
37:53 – 44:18
Trust and ‘behavior is a language’: what quietly erodes safety in relationships
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  When you are in conversation with somebody, I'm just curious of your take on what are some ways that we can inherently hurt the trust that somebody puts in us?
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Is it really the words that can drive it sometimes? You find it's the actions? There are people who say actions speak louder than words-
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... kind of thing. I'm just curious of your take on are there certain things that we might say in conversation that have the tendency to break someone's trust? Is it promises that you've kept and didn't keep?
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Man, that's a great question. Um-
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Just curious on your, your take on trust, trust in a relationship. When you, when you have the people who call into your show.
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Dr. Jo- John, Dr. John Delony Show.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's great. It's great. You, the way you handle people off the cuff is awesome.
12. JDDr. John Delony
  The hours and the professional people-
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm
14. JDDr. John Delony
  ... like the brilliant minds that the months we spent in a room to come up with that was the title of the show. [laughs] Right?
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs]
16. JDDr. John Delony
  Dude, it was, it was good.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Wow.
18. JDDr. John Delony
  Um, yeah, I think a core tenet for me is behavior is a language. And-
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's a good one
20. JDDr. John Delony
  ... like, I, it, it doesn't matter what you say.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  If you can be like, "I love you," though, and every time I walk in a room you flip your phone over-
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
24. JDDr. John Delony
  ... and we've been married for four year, or for 15 years, and we have three kids together, and I don't know the password-
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right
26. JDDr. John Delony
  ... on your phone.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  It's clear.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
30. JDDr. John Delony
  No, you don't.
44:18 – 53:59
Jefferson’s panic attack and the anxiety of sudden visibility: identity, belonging, and homeostasis
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  and get 35% off Momentous. When your moment matters, make it count. And now let's get back to the episode. I want the, my listeners to hear something they probably have never heard. Now, I have made a video about my panic attack.
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Um, and again, you were one of the f- first people I was like, "Hey, something's not right."
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Um, you know, I had a panic attack, uh, really about two years ago, and since then, I wouldn't say at all I've battled with anxiety. I'll have these peak moments-
6. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... of just, like, alarms in my body-
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... of, um, I can feel a lot of tension. I'm not able to release it-
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or all of a sudden I can tell... And I know anybody who's had a panic attack can f- know this feeling of, like, you feel like you're about to go down the rollercoaster-
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... and you're, it's about to all get loose.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm curious just between me, no cameras, just between me and you.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  So I, I had my panic attack on when I was really starting to get a lot of followers-
18. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... on social media. I make these in my car. I'm from a small town.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm not used to all this. And so I'm very curious. This is, this is selfish for me, uh, John, of, of how do you, when you hear that kinda thing, you've written a book, Building the Non-Anxious Life. W- w- what caused that for me? For me, I would say it's a, a place of feeling like I was alone, I guess, is something you said a moment ago that resonated with me of nobody in my small town could relate to what's going on.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  It happened when, my panic attack happened when I was, at, like, 1:00 a.m.-
24. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... alone at the, at, for whatever reason, nighttime is worse.
26. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  I, I don't really get them in the day, but at night they're-
28. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... they're terrible.
30. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
53:59 – 57:01
Closing takeaways: compassion for younger self, therapy, and steady daily stewardship
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  So let's put it, pull it back. For the, our, for our listeners, um, what are, what are, let's put some takeaways with it. One, everybody's trying to figure stuff out.
2. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Two-
4. JDDr. John Delony
  Very few people believe that they are worth sitting in, it's, at the, in the seat that they are sitting in.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. I think that's almost everybody.
6. JDDr. John Delony
  In a marriage, in, with your kids, with, at church, at your job, at whatever, very few people believe they're worth sitting where they're sitting.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  I think that's, yeah, that's really well said. I'll, uh, two, I wanna end with the calm is contagious.
8. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  That I really liked. Three is, it was this great line that you, um, you said as kind of a principle of therapy, of you marry your unfinished business.
10. JDDr. John Delony
  Yeah. Yeah.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Or really, you, you even get into relationships-
12. JDDr. John Delony
  Mm-hmm
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... with your unfinished business.
14. JDDr. John Delony
  Almost always. You take jobs that solve your unfinished business. Um, you, we, we, we, I always want people to go back to and just sit with, like, and this is an exercise I have people do all the time.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
16. JDDr. John Delony
  Just close your eyes and sit in a chair and give yourself 30 minutes, and if you can't find 30 minutes, that in and of itself is an issue. But-
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
18. JDDr. John Delony
  ... find 30 minutes and close your eyes and imagine your nine-year-old self or your 16-year-old self right in front of you.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
20. JDDr. John Delony
  What would you tell her?
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Without c- yeah. Can you, I, I don't know if anybody could do that without crying.
22. JDDr. John Delony
  I often will tell people, "Write, write that kid a letter."
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
24. JDDr. John Delony
  And your 16, 17, 18-year-old self who was drinking, give that kid a high five and a hug-
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
26. JDDr. John Delony
  ... 'cause that kid was doing whatever he could to survive.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
28. JDDr. John Delony
  If the 16, 17, 18-year-old you that slept around too much, that, that like you're ashamed-
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
30. JDDr. John Delony
  ... dude, give her a hug-

Episode duration: 57:01

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Live from Delony’s studio: why communication and anxiety are inseparable

The “imaginary argument” problem: how silence creates anxiety loops

What anxiety is really solving for: fear of being left

Childhood signals and adult insecurity: the Astros story and the ‘unlovable’ conclusion

“Leakage”: when suppressed stress escapes through the wrong fights

Parents, loneliness, and grief: how fractured family ties shape adult communication

You marry your unfinished business: projecting childhood needs onto a spouse

Sponsor break + why abandonment fear makes every conflict feel ‘life or death’

‘I’m fine’ and the power of not forcing disclosure

Crisis response communication: ‘calm is contagious’ in high-stakes moments

‘Facts are your friends’: direct truth-telling from tragedy to marriage talks

Margin, money, and anxiety as a dashboard light—not an enemy

Trust and ‘behavior is a language’: what quietly erodes safety in relationships

Jefferson’s panic attack and the anxiety of sudden visibility: identity, belonging, and homeostasis

Closing takeaways: compassion for younger self, therapy, and steady daily stewardship

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