The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Hard Conversations Get Harder the Longer You Wait ft. Sahil Bloom
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,591 words- 0:01 – 1:06
Realizing you may only see your parents a handful more times
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know, w- when you were talking earlier about aging parents
- SBSahil Bloom
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... do you have a different mindset that you've, mm, started to explore now that they're, and he's now in his 70s?
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the opening line of my book was about that, like, that single moment realization of recognizing that my parents weren't gonna be around forever. You know, like I, I went out for this dinner with, with an old friend, and he asked how I was doing, and I told him that it had started to get difficult living so far from my parents. We're 3,000 miles away. We were living in California. They were living on the East Coast. Two of my best friends in the world. And he asked how old they were at the time, this is 2021, and I said mid-60s. And he asked how often I saw them, and I said, "About once a year." And he just looked at me and said, "Okay, so you're going to see your parents 15 more times before they die." And that was really the moment that changed everything on this journey for me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Wow, yeah.
- 1:06 – 2:26
The painful role reversal: caregiver to care receiver
- SBSahil Bloom
Um, I think that recognition when you place time in the context of these moments that are so easy to just rush by is a really powerful thing. One of the most challenging things when it comes to parents in particular is this identity shift that you start to see happen, where as a child, you've built up this entire identity around your parents being the caregiver and you being the care receiver.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
That your whole mental model for your parents is that, right? It's like, "My parents take care of me."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
And for them, it's, "I'm the care provider. I take care of my kids."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
And then all of a sudden, your parents are in their 60s or 70s or 80s and it flips, and you are placed in a position where your parents actually need you, and that's very difficult on both sides of it, and it's something that we don't often talk about. Like, there is a, there's almost a grief associated with the loss of that identity in that relationship-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... that I perceive of your parent feeling like they can no longer be the provider that they wanted to be-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... and resisting that change, and then of you feeling like you need to flip a switch to be the caregiver.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
But you're so used to your parents taking care of you that it's really challenging to do.
- 2:26 – 5:19
Watching parents age while raising kids: the new awareness of time
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I find that how... I had... I'm, I'm close with my parents, and I love my parents deeply, and when I start to think, you know, every time I see them and they look... It, it, it could be just a month or so, and they look just a little bit older, or my dad has a little bit more gray hair, or, you know, it just, things about their body are changing. It's hard for me to see that. Now, it's different a little bit, I think, for grandparents, because grandparents in your mind have kind of always been old [laughs] you know? Like, that's, uh, just from a kid, and seeing that, but then knowing... I'm at a stage in life now, and I know you and I are in the similar spot, where I am now old enough to remember... Like, my son is eight. How old are your kids?
- SBSahil Bloom
Four.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. So my... You only have one or two?
- SBSahil Bloom
Mm-hmm. One so far. Hopefully more soon.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, well, let me tell you what. If you're going for two, buckle up. Um, so-
- SBSahil Bloom
I just wanna stack 'em up now. Now I want like, I want five.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs] Well, hey, more power to you, man. I, I see, if I see somebody with three kids in a grocery store, I'm like, "You're, you're insane." Um-
- SBSahil Bloom
You, you kind of lose your... You, you forget how hard the early years are when they get, like, a little bit more independent, and so I feel like we've passed-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... the PTSD phase, and now we're just like, "Oh, we should have a bunch of kids," forgetting that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, because it's so, everything's wonderful. Yeah, well, it's still fresh on our minds, I can promise you. Um, of knowing that my son is eight, and I remember being eight and thinking my dad was everything. He knew everything, could do everything. They were taking care of me, and now I'm at that age and realize, man, I don't know squat. And now looking at my grandparents, uh, who some of them are still living, then my parents. So I think you're right. I don't know what we call that, of knowing this, this different kind of awareness, like our, the, the blindfold's off to be able to see that age is really just a number. Because there are people out there who would say, "We're old." And I, I am... For me, I, I, I think I struggle with the idea of my parents getting old, and I'm not sure exactly why, why that is. I- I'm sure it's not wanting that to happen. At the same time, I get sad seeing my kids old. But we keep going, we keep going that way. So what have you, what have you learned in, in some of the other statistics or things that you've done in, through your walk that have, mm, gained some light on, you know, how many times we're gonna see that parent, or how many times we're gonna be, have summers with kids, or anything like that that you're taking to heart in your, in your world?
- 5:19 – 8:32
The terrifying child-time statistics—and the presence vs. ambition tension
- SBSahil Bloom
You know, I think there's the two sides of this, right? There is the aging parent side, which we talked about, that moment-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... of realizing how few times I had with my parents, and then there is the juxtaposition of that with this period of having these young kids in your life. And the truth with children and the statistics around this is a terrifying one. I, I did this research for the book. I went through the American Time Use Survey.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
It's this incredible, rich data set of tracking how people spend their time over the course of their lives, and one of the things that we looked at when we were looking at the data was how much time you spend with your children-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... over the course of your life. So on average, looking at Americans- How much time are we spending with our kids at different periods of our life? And what you find is that 95% of the time you have with your kids is over by the time they turn 18. 75% is over by the time they turn 12. It's terrifying. You see it in a chart form. It's like all of the window that you have with your children is in this very, very short period of time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I don't like that. I don't, I don't like that at all.
- SBSahil Bloom
You don't like going to bed.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, I don't like it.
- SBSahil Bloom
Because the truth is there is a 10-year window when you are your child's favorite person in the entire world.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
And after that, they have new favorite people. They have their own best friends. They have boyfriends and girlfriends. They eventually go off and have partners and spouses of their own.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
They have kids of their own.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
You never occupy that same place in their world, and yet that 10-year window is yours, but it often coincides with the period of your life where you are told to go and chase every single more that the world has told you that you should want. Go and chase every single professional ambition, every single new hobby, every single thing that the world is pushing you to go after. And for a lot of people, that chase for more, that external pressure that they fall victim to, comes at the expense of one of those 10 years of time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Or five of those 10 years of time. And you blink, you wake up, you're 50 years old, your kids have moved on, and you wonder what happened.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
My entire goal as I sit in the middle of that, my son is four years old, is just to wrestle with that tension, to help navigate that balance of where I wanna fall on that tension between presence and ambition.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Right? Like, the answer cannot be, "I'm gonna quit my job, just do nothing but be present with my kids." Right? We have to provide. We also do wanna go and chase our ambitions, go and do things in the world.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
It's important for our kids to see us working hard on things we care about. That's a critical lesson for them to learn. But there is some balance somewhere in the middle. It can't be all one or all the other.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
So being able to ask yourself that question, to actually wrestle with that tension in your own life of how do I wanna show up during this magical window of 10 years that we have, that is where I am currently at in my life.
- 8:32 – 10:21
How to be more present: slow down and protect small daily windows
- JFJefferson Fisher
What can we do to be more present at a time where we're wanting to be most ambitious and at the same time be most present with our, our kids and loved ones?
- SBSahil Bloom
For the vast majority of people, the answer to that question is to slow down. The vast majority of listeners, people that are trying to learn, improve themselves-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... you're h- they're highly ambitious people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
They're high performing. They're doing great in their work or in their job or in their life in some way, and they're wired to go and push harder, to do more.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
To go, like, speed run from here to whatever future that they're trying to create. And when you do that, you may accomplish a lot of those things, but at what cost along the way?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
That's the question that you need to ask. What is the cost of that? What have I missed out on? What, what have I said no to by saying yes to all of those new things? And so the answer for most people is insert these tiny acts of slowness and presence into your life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
What does that look like?
- SBSahil Bloom
Leave your phone in a lockbox-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... for the one hour that you get with your family every day.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Literally put it into a different room. Don't have it on you. It can be as simple as that. I, I think there is more benefit to be had from simply being present during that short window of time that you might get every single day-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... than in trying to expand that window. The default for a lot of people is to say, "I currently only get this 30-minute window with my kids because I'm working this job, and there's school schedules and all these things. That's the problem to be fixed. The 30 minutes needs to be longer." That may not be possible depending on the season of life you're in.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
What is possible is the energy and presence that you bring to that 30 minutes, and usually the greatest barrier to that energy and presence is this thing that we carry around in our pockets every single day.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- 10:21 – 12:52
Breaking phone addiction in 30 days: lockboxes, no-phone zones, grayscale
- SBSahil Bloom
The single most dramatic life improvement I have ever had was from breaking my addiction to my phone.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How do we break the addiction to our phones?
- SBSahil Bloom
There are really three things that I did to break my addiction completely in the course of 30 days. Number one was I bought lockboxes on Amazon. Super, super cheap.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like boxes you can put in-
- SBSahil Bloom
Literally a lockbox that I would just put my phone in and lock it so that it was physically separated from my body.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Is it like timed lock where it won't open?
- SBSahil Bloom
It can be timed or a code or anything. I mean, it's like a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- SBSahil Bloom
... $30 thing on Amazon.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SBSahil Bloom
And for me, I needed a physical implement because I was not good enough. It was so commanding, its, its sort of hold over me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
That if it's sitting out and I see it light up, I'm grabbing that thing to go and look what's going on.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
So I bought lockboxes, and the second piece was a rule attached to that, which was I created what I called no phone zones, which were windows of time during the day when I wasn't gonna have my phone on me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
So for me, that was deep work in the morning, and it was family time in the evening. And what I said was, during those windows, phone goes in lockbox and it's set away. It's not gonna be on me at all. And then the third and final thing is put your phone on grayscale mode for at least 90% of the day.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Grayscale?
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah. It's like a simple accessibility feature on the iPhone. Uh, it's like color filters within accessibility features.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
And you can quickly toggle it on and off. Basically, it makes your whole phone show up in gray, which kills all of the naturally addictive color palettes that they've created. Like, all of these companies have teams of behavioral science PhDs-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... whose entire jobs are to make them as addicting as possible.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
That includes things like the colors and the notifications, all of those things.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
Grayscale mode kills all of that, so your phone literally just looks gray, and it makes you much less likely to do the kind of just check-
- JFJefferson Fisher
'Cause you're kind of bored of it
- SBSahil Bloom
... that you constantly do. It's boring.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 12:52 – 16:42
The hidden damage of distraction: connection drops when the phone is present
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, you'd much rather have, like, a very concentrated effort rather th- you know, of even one hour versus seven hours of highly distracted time with your kids. Because I, I can tell you, I, I truly am worried of the future of these, this generation that's gonna be in a therapy chair and say, "My parent, all I saw was the back of their phone. You know, I- they cared about their phone more than me, and here I am saying, 'Look at me, watch me, watch me do this, that.'" And instead, you know, there's... One, one second, baby. Just a minute. Let me finish this one. W- just one minute. And I wonder what kind of effect that's gonna have. Before we keep going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about, you know it, Cozy Earth. Do you know that those are the pants [laughs] that I have on right now? Uh, it's true. I love Cozy Earth, and they've been a sponsor of this podcast for a, a long time now. Because everything they do is just top-quality stuff. It's easy. It feels good. It doesn't matter what temperature is out there. I know that I can throw on some Cozy Earth. Right now, it's getting a little cooler. S- the highs are, like, getting in the 60s. That means I'm busting out my sweatshirts. I'm busting out my hoodies. I'm busting out, yes, you know it, my sweatpants. I even have their house shoes, for goodness sake, and I hardly wear [laughs] house shoes. I love Cozy Earth, and I think you should too. Right now, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson to get up to 20% off your first order. That is cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson to get 20% off. And now, let's keep going.
- SBSahil Bloom
I was on a vacation with my wife and son recently, and we were at, we were at the pool at this, this beautiful hotel in Napa. And I was sitting there, and I was finishing up some work before getting to hang out with them. And I was looking out at the pool, and I saw this amazing scene play out of there was a woman with her child, and her kid was trying to call her.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
And she was on her phone scrolling on-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... social media.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
And then I saw my wife in the pool, like, soaking wet, makeup all destroyed-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... like, playing, jumping around with my son. And I just had this flash forward almost moment of, like, 20 years from now, who is gonna have a better chance of having a close, loving, deep relationship and bond with their child?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
It's like, is it the person who's passing the time scrolling on Instagram looking at other things? Or is it the person who's getting soaking wet, ruining their makeup-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... sitting in the pool?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
It made me really proud in a lot of ways-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Of course
- SBSahil Bloom
... of, like, the type of person that I feel like my wife is and, and what she's doing and prioritizing. But it's also a recognition that, like, it's very hard to do that because these things are commanding. I mean, we, I feel it all the time. Like, i- if, if I have my phone on me, I'm taking it out.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
I- no matter what. A- and I am someone that self-defines as being present, as being, like, loving, connected, but if my phone is in my pocket, it is going to pull on me. I mean, there is clear scientific evidence that if I even have my phone out on the table in front of us-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... you and I are gonna leave that conversation feeling less connected.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
The draw that it has on our attention, our cognitive energy is literally pulled by it just sitting on the table, not even me touching it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I wonder how many people, you know, it's gonna be on their tombstone, it's just gonna say, "I didn't wanna get my hair wet." [laughs] You know what I mean? Of, of, of, "I would've... Sorry, I would've wanted to have a great memory with you, but, you know, I, I was, I was busy responding to an email. I was busy doing this. I didn't wanna get my hair wet. I didn't wanna whatever." And in comparison, that adds up to a lot, and I think that's gonna... T- I... See, when I hear about all this, makes me think of all
- 16:42 – 20:27
Hard talks with aging parents: identity, vulnerability, and doing it sooner
- JFJefferson Fisher
the people that I hear when there is family estrangement, when there are big, difficult conversations that started back when they were, back when they were kids. Um, I want to kinda go back for a moment and ask, ask the question, what are practical things that we can do to make sure that we're making the most of our relationships with our parents as they get into that older phase of life?
- SBSahil Bloom
I think one of the most challenging things to do with your parents, and most important things as a result, is to have the conversation about that shift in identity, about that shift from being caregiver to care receiver. That's a conversation that I think a generation ago never happened, and I think the biggest reason was there was a lack of vulnerability and openness around that vulnerability that existed particularly with men. The idea of my dad opening up about the way that he's feeling about his health changes, about his aging, is very difficult-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... naturally to him.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Because he's born in the '50s. He comes from a generation where, like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... men, no, you tough it out, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Put your head down, you just keep working. You as the child being the one to actually prompt having that discussion and to plan for it, to plan for that transition, to talk about how each person can show up in those relationships and with those shifts happening, that I think is the most important thing that you can do. Because no one is going to naturally do it. It's not something that's going to just happen seamlessly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
It, it only comes through having the uncomfortable conversation, and it's the truth that life gets better when you do uncomfortable things sooner, across all things in life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
That conversation is not gonna get any easier if you avoid having it, if you brush it under the rug. Time doesn't heal anything when it comes to relationships. So either you have that conversation now, or you're gonna end up paying a big debt burden, if you will, later.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'll tell you one thing I've noticed when it comes to communication and older parents, is that I find that they start talking more about themselves rather than asking questions about you. That's been a theme of what I hear about and what I, um, comes across my path and even what I, I have in my own family. And it's typically been when I reach down and have the conversation with my dad or my grandfather, who as soon as I get with them, they immediately just starts talking about something that's happening, uh, in their world that has nothing to do with, like, the kids or, or what's happening. And I typically find that it's because they wanna feel relevant. They wanna feel like what they're saying matters. They wanna feel like they're kind of part in the game because I th- I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they are feeling like life has kind of passed them by in a little bit, and I have, myself, I have missed out on the opportunity to ask them the very questions you talked about of, "So what's, what's, what's it like? What, what, what's something you didn't expect getting older, or did you ever think you were gonna be this old?" Or whatever. My grandfather just says, "It's hell getting old, boy." That's all he ever says.
- SBSahil Bloom
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
He'll just say, "It's, it's hell getting old."
- 20:27 – 26:07
Helping older parents feel happier: future excitement, ‘squint harder,’ and service
- SBSahil Bloom
It is... You know, it's... I had this conversation recently with my parents that a lot of the advice you get as you get older and as you start to experience the natural mental challenges of getting older, the struggles, a lot of the advice revolves around the past. Meaning, people tell you, "But look at all the great things that you've done. Look at-"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
"... you raised great kids. You, you accomplished so much in your career. You did all these great things." They tell you to basically look at the past and feel gratitude for all these things that you've done, for all these memories, these experiences.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
The truth is that the past is not particularly helpful when it comes to happiness. In order to feel happy, you need to basically have two things. You need gratitude in the present-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... and you need excitement for something in the future.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
People know about gratitude in the present. They know you need to wake up and feel grateful for the things you have.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
People don't often think about that second one. You need to wake up in the morning and feel like there's something in the future that you're excited for, and as you get older, it's harder to see those exciting things in the future because a lot of the things that you have considered to be given in your life are no longer guaranteed.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
You're not sure if you're gonna feel healthy enough to go on that hiking trip-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... in the Swiss Alps.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
Y- you're not sure if you're gonna feel healthy enough to go and do that outdoor activity that you love, to do the gardening, to go run the 5K. Like, all of those things that you have previously in prior seasons known of as exciting are no longer necessarily there. And so my guidance to my parents has been basically one phrase, which is, "Squint harder." And what I mean by that is, like, it's there. There are things that you can be excited about. But as you get older, you have to squint a little bit harder to see them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
They're not gonna be as obvious as they were in your younger years. That's part of getting older. But you are in control of putting things on the calendar that you're excited for, taking up those hobbies that you're excited about, putting the experience on the calendar, doing that, and then squinting a little bit harder to actually look out into the future and see it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think that tracks because most of the time, uh, grandparents like to retell the same story over and over again, and it makes sense because things are tied to those memories and how they felt about the past. I do think it's a great idea to start asking them more of what they're excited about-
- SBSahil Bloom
Mm-hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in the future, like what they have coming up. And [laughs] I like the squint harder. That's just like, try harder.
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And keep, keep, keep, keep looking 'cause you're gonna find something.
- SBSahil Bloom
I mean, sometimes in life you have to squint.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
Right? Like, there are definitely moments when life beats you down-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... no matter what phase of life you're in.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- 26:07 – 27:38
Success without sacrificing family: counting the real cost and setting anti-goals
- JFJefferson Fisher
all of your... I, I know you talk to a lot of business owners. I know you know a lot of people in the business world. What have you found to be some of the top... Uh, let's say, what would be one of the number one things that a business leader can do to make sure that they don't put business over family?
- SBSahil Bloom
I always talk about this as understanding the real cost of your success. Like, when people think about b- achieving success in life, the first things that come to mind, like what's gonna be required, are sort of what I think of as, like, the kind of the list price, if you will. It's like, oh-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- SBSahil Bloom
... I need to work hard. I'm gonna have to be disciplined.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
I'm gonna have to do all these things, right? The real cost is all of that, plus the things you sacrifice along the way. And for a lot of people, they made a deal thinking it was just gonna be what was on the surface, but then in reality, it was a whole lot more than that. They sacrificed much more than they meant to. The biggest way that you get out of that trap is to think about what are the trade-offs that you are not willing to make. Call it, like, an anti-goal.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Right? Like, I know my goal is to become the CEO, but my anti-goal might be spending 300 nights out of the year away from my family.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
Yes, I wanna become CEO, but not if it means me being a zero present factor in my children's lives. I wanna go achieve the goal, but here's my guardrail on-
- 27:38 – 29:21
Include your family in the ‘why’: preventing the “they don’t want to be around” story
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... achieving that goal. That's the first thing I would say. Make sure you're establishing those anti-goals on your journey so that you have those course corrections that you can make along the way. The second piece of advice that I think comes from the people that have done this most successfully, people like, uh, Michael Dell-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... who's one of the wealthiest, most successful business owners in the world, married to the same woman, great kids, close relationship with all of them, is make sure you are including your children in the why behind what you are doing. Make sure you are including your spouse in the why behind what you are doing. The reason that's so important is because in the absence of including them in that, what you create is this world where you have your work, and then whenever you're not at your work, you happen to be home. And the truth is that if you're a business leader, if you're a CEO, if you're building something, there are gonna be periods of time when that equation is heavily skewed towards the work.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
You're really pushing on something. You're grinding. If your family is not included in the why behind that, they fill it with the worst version-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... which is, "Dad just doesn't wanna be around."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Or, "Mom just doesn't wanna be around. They're just, they're just focused on themselves, on doing this thing," when the truth is usually far from that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
The truth is that you're trying to build a life for the people that you care about. You're trying to serve people through your business. You really care about it, the mission, the vision. When you include those people in the why, it becomes like a turbocharger for the entire vision of what you're trying to create.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
You're able to show up in both of those worlds much more effectively.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
And when you leave, when you're away on that trip, your kids know that they're a part of that thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
It's part of the life that they're trying to build.
- 29:21 – 33:46
Staying grounded amid status: the ‘ceramic cup’ lesson and identity beyond titles
- JFJefferson Fisher
What's been one of your favorite conversations that you's ha- that you've had with somebody you look up to? 'Cause I know you've, uh... You know, I know a lot of your stuff that you have on, uh, Twitter and social is you talk to a lot of people that you look up to. So what's, what's been one of your favorite conversations?
- SBSahil Bloom
I recently had a conversation with Tim Cook, uh, CEO of Apple, who has been a mentor and friend for over a decade now. And the conversation was in conjunction with him announcing that he was stepping down from this role as CEO, which he's o- he's occupied for over a decade. And I was relating to him an experience from a handful of years ago that I had when I saw his name kind of listed amongst this, like, group of, of celebrities, and I told it to him knowing that he would find it funny, and he sort of laughed. And I asked, like, "How do you stay grounded as you've achieved more and more success? Like, what keeps you from feeling, you know, that, like, natural puffing of the chest-"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... "as you've gotten more and more successful?" And what he said was, "This recognition that it's not about me, that people don't love me, they love the role that I'm in."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
"They love the role that I occupy. And as soon as I'm not in that role, they're gonna move on to the next thing." And I remember at the time being really Moved by it as this idea of someone who has achieved what we think of as the pinnacle of success-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... who has the wisdom to separate their identity from that title, from that success that they're having. And that I thought at the time, that is someone who's gonna be able to successfully navigate these transitions in their life whenever they come-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... that, these transitions that we all face. And so now seeing that transition and being able to have that conversation as he's navigating it, as he's able to go through that period gracefully and as he shows excitement for whatever it is that comes next, it's not surprising to me because you were able to actually separate it along the way and on that rise.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
It's very similar to me to that concept from, I think it was Simon Sinek's book, Leaders Eat Last-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... which I don't know if you've ever read.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
But there's this story that he relates in it of the, uh, undersecretary of defense speaking at a conference. And he goes to this conference, and, um, he gets on stage, and I think at the, at this point he's the former undersecretary of defense. And he gets on stage and he says, "You know, last year I came to the same conference when I was the undersecretary of defense, and they put me up first class. They flew me out here."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
"They brought me in a nice car, and they gave me this beautiful ceramic cup with coffee in it. I came through the backstage and out on stage. Now, I'm back and I'm the former undersecretary of defense. I flew here in coach in a middle seat. No one was waiting for me."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
"I came in through the side entrance. And when I asked for coffee, they gave me this styrofoam cup." And the point that he makes to the audience is that you need to recognize that you were never worth the ceramic cup. You were always just this styrofoam cup.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SBSahil Bloom
And as soon as your role changes, the ceramic cup goes to whoever's in that role. It's like this idea, this lesson of never attaching yourself to these things that we are, uh, claiming as who we are, these, you know, sort of external material things in the world.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
And I think it's so important to just con- constantly remind yourself on these quests and on these missions that we're going on, that you are never defined by the things that you do, that you achieve, the titles, the names, all these things that the outside world places on you. You are defined by the people that you impact.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
These relationships, these things that you're able to go and create in the world. I, I have found a lot of wisdom in that on my own journey.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I like that. I've, I, um, heard somebody speaking once that, um, they said something along the lines of, "Legacy is not something that you leave," I think, uh, something about, "Legacy is not something that you leave out, something that you leave in." In other words, it's not what you leave behind in, in tangible form. It's what you leave inside of-
- SBSahil Bloom
Mm
- 33:46 – 36:04
Wisdom from elders: love’s closeness to sadness, and caring for your body like a house
- JFJefferson Fisher
... somebody. And that, that to me struck, struck a really good chord. Uh, when you turned 30, you spoke to, I think you said, like, 50 plus, 90-year-olds. What is the one thing that you've learned from that experience?
- SBSahil Bloom
It is very difficult to point to a single thing. Um, I think one of the wisest pieces of guidance was I asked a 95-year-old woman what advice she would give to her younger self, to her 30-year-old self. And she said, "Never fear sadness, as it tends to sit right next to love."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Wow. [laughs]
- SBSahil Bloom
I don't think-
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's so good
- SBSahil Bloom
... I don't think you can capture in a single sentence more of life than she did-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... with those words. Because what it's a reminder of is the fact that the most beautiful things in life dance on this razor's edge-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... with the most painful. Like, you cannot hope to open yourself up to the full extent and texture and depth and richness of love without exposing yourself to the full depths of sadness, of loss.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
And that applies to everything. Y- you can't hope to go and achieve the greatest heights without the pain of the struggle of going and achieving that thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
That has impacted me profoundly in the years since.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Is there anything else that you've learned from that group? I know I said one, but I'm sure there's gotta be more.
- SBSahil Bloom
90-year-old man said, "Treat your body like a house that you're going to have to live in for the next 70 years."
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SBSahil Bloom
I loved that one, too, because your body is quite literally the house you are going to have to live in.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
And yet, how often do we treat that house like crap?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
And if you think about it that way, you do what you would do to that house, right? You, you make the investments in a solid foundation. You make minor repairs along the way before they become the major repairs, before they have the big blowups. You treat your house with reverence-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SBSahil Bloom
... in other words. And I think that that mindset, again, applied to almost anything, uh, is a good way to live your life. It's like, how, how do I wanna live my life so that my 80 or 90-year-old self is proud of the decisions that I'm making today?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 36:04 – 43:46
Time perception, midlife ‘reverse crisis,’ and why ‘later’ becomes ‘never’
- SBSahil Bloom
Like, I, I think more broadly, something I've been thinking about a lot as a 35-year-old is these conversations that I'm now constantly having with people in my general same age range who are going through what they would self-define as a midlife crisis. You're like all of a sudden wanting to chase and feeling these impa- these impulses to chase things that would impress your 18-year-old self.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I feel like we're t- we're too young for a midlife crisis. S- what it feels like-
- SBSahil Bloom
Life expectancy is 77. Midlife, we are in it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No way. Are we really?
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I feel like midlife crisis is something that's like when you're 45 or 50. No?
- SBSahil Bloom
No.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I should be ha-
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... oh, dang. I should be having one now.
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think that's what it is.
- SBSahil Bloom
We are, we are, we are very much-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Dang
- SBSahil Bloom
... yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right. I n- I need to get my, step up my game.
- SBSahil Bloom
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I need to find my midlife crisis.
- SBSahil Bloom
The crazy thing about time, too, is there's something called, uh, Jeanneret's law. It's named after this French philosopher, Paul Jeanneret, who talked about the fact that your perception of time changes as you age. So For example, when you're a kid, summer feels like it lasts forever
- JFJefferson Fisher
The longest, yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
Now, at 35, how quick does this summer feel like it's going by? It's in an instant.
- JFJefferson Fisher
School starts next week and I'm like, "You can't-
- SBSahil Bloom
And the reason-
- JFJefferson Fisher
You can't. It-
- SBSahil Bloom
... is it's math
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SBSahil Bloom
At, at, at five years old, one year is 20% of your life. For my son, a year is 20% of his life. When you're 50, it's way less, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Like, as you get older, the percentage of time of your life that a year implies is far, far smaller of the overall pie. And so as a result, time feels like it's accelerates as you start getting older. Time speeds up on you. So as a result, like, you have lived well over half of your perceived life at a much younger age than you think.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- 43:46 – 57:02
Practical slowness and better commitments: tonight test, and micro-habits to exit rush mode
- SBSahil Bloom
Very bad at predicting the future and very bad at appreciating future time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SBSahil Bloom
There's a scientific finding called the Yes Damn effect.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SBSahil Bloom
Have you heard of this?
- JFJefferson Fisher
No.
- SBSahil Bloom
So the idea is that humans are really bad at thinking about time in the future, so we always assume we're gonna have more time in the future.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
You look at your calendar today, it's packed. You're stressed, you're busy. You look at your calendar two months from now, it's empty. There's nothing there.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
So someone invites you to something two months from now-
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's easy
- SBSahil Bloom
... you say, "Yeah, for sure." Look at my cal- Oh, man, there's nothing going on.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
And then two months from now comes and you say, "Damn."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Why did I-
- SBSahil Bloom
"Why did I say yes to that thing?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] Yeah.
- SBSahil Bloom
Yes damn.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SBSahil Bloom
And the flip of that for how to counter it-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SBSahil Bloom
... is what I call the tonight test.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- SBSahil Bloom
Like, you ask yourself, "Would I want to do this thing if it were tonight?"
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh.
- SBSahil Bloom
And that cuts through the noise on all of it. Because if you wouldn't wanna do it tonight, you're not gonna wanna do it two months from now.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SBSahil Bloom
You're gonna be just as busy, I guarantee it. Time doesn't all of a sudden become open and flowery and beautiful. You will be busy. So either you wanted to do it or you didn't, and you know that right now.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 57:02 – 1:01:03
Legacy at home: energy allocation, appreciation, and ‘I still need you’
- SBSahil Bloom
Wow. I'm not- Your parents are gone ... I'm not, I'm not ready for those snaps yet, so we're gonna... Crazy. What do you want your kids to say about you when they grow up? That I gave my full energy to the things and the people that I really cared about. To me, life is all about energy. You have finite energy, and the things that you choose to give that finite, precious energy to determine how you are living your life. Mm-hmm. How aligned those things are with what you say your priorities are is what makes the man or the woman that I think you are. Mm-hmm. So I would want them to be able to say with clear eyes that I gave energy to the things that really mattered to me. I like that. For me, it's the... I, I don't ever want them to say that somebody else got the better version of them. Mm-hmm. Of, you know, "Well, I'm glad you liked him. He was never there for me." In other words, I was, he wasn't, I wasn't around. I wasn't present enough. I was always present for somebody else. I think that would absolutely, that would crush me. What's something that someone can communicate right now to their parents to tell them, show them love without saying I love you? Tell them one thing you appreciate about them. I believe that lack of appreciation is where relationships go to die, and as parents get older, one of the biggest reasons for struggle, particularly for them, is that they no longer feel they are needed in any real, tangible, clear way. Hmm. That they aren't feeling that appreciation from others for the things that were natural on a daily basis when they were younger, when they were your care provider. So mention those things. Just be vocal about them, and they can be as small as some tiny thing that they did for your kid, some tiny thing that they sent you. My dad has this habit of sending me articles. Like, he'll email me, uh, he'll, he'll email me and it just says- Your dad? ... it just says FYI. [laughs] And, and with no context on why I should care about the thing or what it is. He sends them to the whole family? But it's just some article. Yeah. [laughs] And- All the siblings. Yeah ... what it is is it's his way of showing love, right? Yeah. It's this act of service, and engaging on those things, appreciating those things, vocalizing that appreciation, it goes such a long way. Yeah. I can tell you one, a game changer for me, uh, and I think this would be wonderful for anybody, is when you send that text or that message, is letting your parents know, beginning with the phrase, "I still need you for..." Mm-hmm. I still need you for your wisdom. I still need you with X, Y... But just that feeling of knowing that they're still needed for their guidance, for their love, for their reassurance, um, that doesn't have to do with something transactional, like I need you to just watch the kids- Mm ... [laughs] tomorrow night. It's something that saying, uh, intrinsically I st- I still need you. And if my son is 37 and tells me that, uh, I'd, I mean, I mean, I'd run through a brick wall to go make sure I'd be there, or my daughter. So I- And if it feels uncomfortable to say it, just show it. Yeah. Show that you still need them in some tiny way. Ask for a piece of business advice. Ask for- Any advice. Life advice ... a piece of life advice, relationship, whatever it might be. Sometimes I know it will, it'll feel uncomfortable to vocalize those things if you don't have that kind of emotional connection- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... in the relationship, which not everyone does, but you can still show it. For sure. Man, thank you so much for coming and- Thank you ... spending some time with me, man. Oh, it's a pleasure always.
Episode duration: 1:01:03
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Transcript of episode dhOx88cYqG8
