Therapist Explains: Why Kids Are Cutting Off Their Parents

1. 0:00 – 2:10

   Estrangement is more common than people think (and what it includes)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      There seems like there are more broken relationships now more than ever, especially between parents and adult children. It's almost near epidemic level. What can we do to repair these broken relationships?

   2. MBMatthias Barker0:20

      There's this huge study that came out in 2023.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MBMatthias Barker0:22

      Uh, thousands of people, and it found that one in four people had cut off contact with a family member at some point in their life. And it's funny 'cause, like, I specialize in estrangement. I'm a, I'm a therapist. I-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:31

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MBMatthias Barker0:31

      Um, I have a clinical practice. I have a group where we kind of have parents and adult kids in the same group. We work through a program for-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher0:37

      Right

   8. MBMatthias Barker0:37

      ... family conflict, and it's like, I don't know. W- when you first kind of hear about it, most people don't know what the word estrangement means. Uh, and then I-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher0:46

      How do you define it?

   10. MBMatthias Barker0:47

       Well, yeah. So I... When I talk to people, it's like, "Well, I specialize in estrangement." They're like, "What? What's that?" And I'm like, "Well, when you're-"

   11. JFJefferson Fisher0:51

       Sounds strange, yeah

   12. MBMatthias Barker0:52

       ... when you're cut off from a family member-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

       Yeah

   14. MBMatthias Barker0:53

       ... that, that can be one version of it. Like, yeah, you don't talk to your mom, you don't talk to your dad, you don't talk to your brother. But it could also be when there's just a bunch of elephants in the room, and it's kind of like you're emotionally just walled off from them. Like, maybe you see them at Christmas, maybe you see them at, I don't know, maybe you send, like, a birthday text. But generally, if you're in the same room, you're keeping it pretty surface, and it just feels like, gosh, I, I'm, I'm basically... We're family, so I see them when I have to-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher1:15

       Um-

   16. MBMatthias Barker1:15

       ... but I'm not putting in emo- a ton of emotional energy into the relationship.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher1:18

       I'm with you. So, like, I... What I see it as, by the way, how I, we do the show is it really is just a conversation.

   18. MBMatthias Barker1:26

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher1:26

       So if you're curious about something, ask. If I'm curious about something, I'm gonna ask.

   20. MBMatthias Barker1:29

       Cool, cool.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher1:30

       So I see it, when you go, okay, if we're gonna define what estrangement is, if s- if somebody's not familiar with it, that they know what it feels like, it can either be a full connection is closed.

   22. MBMatthias Barker1:40

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher1:40

       They do not respond to my texts. They do not answer my calls.

   24. MBMatthias Barker1:43

       Yeah.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher1:43

       It, it, it is closed. Or you're saying there's also, uh, the same effect of estrangement is you only see each other at the holidays, and you really don't know each other.

   26. MBMatthias Barker1:51

       Yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher1:51

       Whereas that's more of, like, what I would think of as it's strained.

   28. MBMatthias Barker1:55

       Yeah.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher1:55

       Like, it's-

   30. MBMatthias Barker1:56

       Good, good term for it
2. 2:10 – 3:11

   How strained relationships become no-contact: boundaries, patterns, and exhaustion

   1. MBMatthias Barker2:10

      Depends if you're a parent or a kid. I mean, I think that most of the kids that I talk to start in the strained camp. They're just like, "Man, I feel really exhausted in my relationship with my mom or my dad."

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

      When you say kid, do you mean-

   3. MBMatthias Barker2:22

      Kid meaning not, like, young kid, meaning-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:23

      Right

   5. MBMatthias Barker2:24

      ... um, in reference to the parent, so an adult. So an adult kid who's just, like, thinking about mom or dad.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:28

      Right.

   7. MBMatthias Barker2:28

      Maybe you're, "I'm in my 20s or 30s or 40s." I'm like, "Man, I just feel exhausted around my parent. I feel like I can't really tell them things. I feel like they jump in with unsolicited advice all the time, and I'm just kind of, like, nodding through it, and I'm gritting through it."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:40

      Okay.

   9. MBMatthias Barker2:40

      And then I talk to people kind of on that stage, and then maybe it gets to the point where it's just like, "Hey, to protect my mental health, to protect my peace, I think I need to set up some boundaries here."

   10. JFJefferson Fisher2:49

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MBMatthias Barker2:49

       And then if those boundaries aren't engaged, accepted, maybe sometimes a parent jumps in and takes that as a gesture of disrespect or is frustrated, is intrusive anyway-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher2:58

       Right

   13. MBMatthias Barker2:58

       ... then it can really lead to just no contact. And so that's the story I hear most from people maybe our age, you know, and, like, maybe people who grew up on the internet.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:07

       I was like mid-30s.

   15. MBMatthias Barker3:08

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher3:08

       Right. Of, like, yeah.

   17. MBMatthias Barker3:08

       Mid-30s, 40s. I mean, and, and anyone can be estranged. But, like-

   18. JFJefferson Fisher3:11

       For sure

3. 3:11 – 5:43

   Why parents feel blindsided: the ‘small’ final incident vs the long history

   1. MBMatthias Barker3:11

      ... then on the parents' side, I think the conversation comes mostly when that no contact is hit because for a lot of parents, they're really surprised. What's really interesting in the lit is, like, the thing that often leads to a cutoff estrangement-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

      Mm-hmm

   3. MBMatthias Barker3:24

      ... is almost always a surprise to the parent.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:26

      Right.

   5. MBMatthias Barker3:27

      The parent... And it, it feels very small.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:29

      Yeah.

   7. MBMatthias Barker3:29

      So Carl Pilmer out of Cornell's talked about this.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:31

      Mm.

   9. MBMatthias Barker3:31

      Katia Gleis, um, out of Australia, she... Both researchers.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:34

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MBMatthias Barker3:34

       They've talked about this a lot, is, like, it's something like a comment about your new tattoo or like-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher3:39

       Right. Something you thought was like a co- you thought was a compliment.

   13. MBMatthias Barker3:42

       A trivial?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:42

       Yeah.

   15. MBMatthias Barker3:42

       Yeah.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher3:42

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. MBMatthias Barker3:42

       Or even just a trivial whatever, or, like, "You know, you should probably make a budget."

   18. JFJefferson Fisher3:46

       Yeah.

   19. MBMatthias Barker3:46

       You know, even, like, a little piece of advice, and then the kid's like, "I'm done."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher3:49

       Right.

   21. MBMatthias Barker3:50

       And then the parent's like, "What?"

   22. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

       "What was that?"

   23. MBMatthias Barker3:53

       "What was that?" Like, and then what is often the case-

   24. JFJefferson Fisher3:57

       Mm-hmm

   25. MBMatthias Barker3:57

       ... is there was a pattern of behavior that really created a lot of strain in the relationship that maybe the parent was aware of, maybe not.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher4:03

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MBMatthias Barker4:04

       Often the parent's aware that, like, "Well, I'm noticing my kid pull back. Like, I'm noticing that they're giving me these one-word texts," or, "I have to call. Like, they're never initiating conversation. I'm always the one asked to initiate. I'm always the one making plans."

   28. JFJefferson Fisher4:13

       They're pulling away.

   29. MBMatthias Barker4:14

       Yeah.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher4:14

       Yeah.
4. 5:43 – 10:50

   Two ways estrangement happens: sudden exit or conflict-after-a-small-incident

   1. MBMatthias Barker5:43

      Hmm. Yeah. There's two versions of this. One is where the kid pulls away and then just stops responding without an announcement.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MBMatthias Barker5:53

      Without, like, a boundary list, without like a, "Mom, you got to do this or this or this, or I'm going to cut you off." Like, there's no-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:58

      No bye

   5. MBMatthias Barker5:59

      ... negotiation.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher6:00

      Yeah.

   7. MBMatthias Barker6:00

      There's no disclosure. It literally is just we moved. That happens sometimes. Uh, I stopped responding to the text, uh, the, or the text went, you know, green, like I got blocked. Um- And then the parent is really just left to try to make sense of a bunch of fragments of what happened.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher6:16

      Yeah.

   9. MBMatthias Barker6:16

      And that is disorienting and overwhelming for so many parents.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher6:18

       In other words, there's just a, there's a immediate, without announcement exit.

   11. MBMatthias Barker6:22

       Yep, just exit.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher6:22

       Okay, so that's one avenue.

   13. MBMatthias Barker6:23

       Just just enough is enough. That's one avenue.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher6:24

       Yeah.

   15. MBMatthias Barker6:24

       And then the second is there's some, there's some conflict, but like I said, most of the time it's over something small, and then the kid stops talking. And so then that's disorienting because it seems like, well, we were just talking about the new tattoo or I- they said, "Don't, you know, get presents for my kids for Christmas." It was just one thing. It was just one snow globe.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher6:41

       Mm.

   17. MBMatthias Barker6:41

       Like, it w- really, that's it.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher6:42

       Yeah.

   19. MBMatthias Barker6:43

       And so they're almost kind of focused in on the last conversation.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher6:46

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MBMatthias Barker6:47

       When really it's like the history of the relationship was it. And here's what happens in the mind of many adult kids, is it's like, "Man, Mom won't come towards me and hear me about the snow globe. They're n- She's not gonna come towards me around this bigger thing."

   22. JFJefferson Fisher7:00

       Right.

   23. MBMatthias Barker7:00

       "If, if we can't even have a good conversation around something trivial-

   24. JFJefferson Fisher7:03

       Yeah

   25. MBMatthias Barker7:03

       ... why would I trust that she can handle the big things in my heart?"

   26. JFJefferson Fisher7:07

       Yeah.

   27. MBMatthias Barker7:08

       And so it just feels like, I'm just gonna say, "Hey, Mom, you know, you've been intrusive, or you kind of give me advice all the time, or, or you keep making comments about my weight, or you're really rude to my spouse."

   28. JFJefferson Fisher7:17

       Right.

   29. MBMatthias Barker7:17

       "And, or you're critical towards my kids, or you make comments about cleanliness in my house all the time." And then I'm like, "Am I really gonna get anything out of that conversation?"

   30. JFJefferson Fisher7:25

       Mm-hmm.
5. 10:50 – 14:41

   The cultural/generational gap: accountability vs ‘move past it’ values

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:50

      ... my, my brain's going somewhere else. Is it possible to be raised in the same house but have two different experiences?

   2. MBMatthias Barker10:56

      Yeah, especially if you grew up on the internet.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:58

      Yeah.

   4. MBMatthias Barker10:58

      I think that's not a small point. I think that if you grew up on the internet, you have a different culture than your parent.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher11:03

      Tell me more.

   6. MBMatthias Barker11:04

      Um, you know, bicultural families, like people come from a different country, and then they come to the United States-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:09

      Yeah

   8. MBMatthias Barker11:09

      ... for example, or Canada or something.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher11:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MBMatthias Barker11:11

       And it's like the kid is raised in a Western world, and then, but at home, it's maybe, let's say, traditional or collectivist values. And it's, there's arguments that can happen there where both people are just talking past each other. It's not even necessarily that they disagree. They don't even really understand the conversation they're having.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher11:29

       Is this just m- but can we put those as they're just from different generations?

   12. MBMatthias Barker11:33

       Perhaps, but then we ask, like, how? Like, what about the generational divide-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher11:37

       Mm-hmm

   14. MBMatthias Barker11:37

       ... is the disconnect? And I think that cultural values has a piece of it. I can give an example. So, you know, on a, um, accountability, it is very much the value of many millennials and younger that if, let's say there's some sort of flaw. There's some, some, there's something you did that was hurtful in a relationship. Like, the best thing to do is that we both kind of be able to be, um, honest-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher11:59

       Mm-hmm

   16. MBMatthias Barker11:59

       ... about our failings and our shortcomings, that we seek to have accountability and repair of trust, and what that includes is something like an apology and something like owning when we've made a mistake-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher12:08

       Yeah

   18. MBMatthias Barker12:08

       ... so that we can hear maybe the experience of the other person and how they felt-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher12:10

       Mm-hmm

   20. MBMatthias Barker12:10

       ... and how that was hurtful.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher12:11

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MBMatthias Barker12:12

       And part of that trust rebuilding process-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher12:14

       Mm-hmm

   24. MBMatthias Barker12:14

       ... is that humility, that essentially kind of almost being eye level, being able to acknowledge we're both human, we both make mistakes, and how can we love each other better?

   25. JFJefferson Fisher12:21

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MBMatthias Barker12:22

       That is not necessarily the cultural value of many people that didn't grow up on the internet that l- especially if you're from, like, a rural culture. Like, let's say that you didn't live in a big city.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher12:31

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MBMatthias Barker12:32

       Um, you were from the South.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher12:33

       Right.

   30. MBMatthias Barker12:33

       Like, the expectation was that actually there's a bit more of a hierarchy You know, within, between the parent and kid. Parent and kid are on eye level. Parent and kid, like, there's some authority. Even for adult kids, there's some sort of authority. And the value of, like, enduring and overlooking, let's say, imperfections-
6. 14:41 – 18:20

   Both/and thinking without defensiveness: stop deflecting to ‘I had it worse’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher14:41

      Well, what I see is, you know, if we're going-- [chuckles] what do they say in therapy? Like, the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents.

   2. MBMatthias Barker14:49

      [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher14:50

      And so we're not talking just even cultural values or generational values. It's also the household in which they grew up in, you know?

   4. MBMatthias Barker14:59

      Yeah. Well said.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher14:59

      Of like, why would I... Uh, nobody did anything for me.

   6. MBMatthias Barker15:03

      Mm.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher15:03

      Why would I do something for you? Uh, nobody apologized to me.

   8. MBMatthias Barker15:06

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher15:06

      You know, you think that's hard. We're, we're comparing the experience of-

   10. MBMatthias Barker15:10

       That is huge

   11. JFJefferson Fisher15:10

       ... you think, you think, like what I hear a lot is-- And I can remember even my mom doing this. She was like, "You think this is yelling? This isn't yelling."

   12. MBMatthias Barker15:19

       Oh, yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher15:19

       You know what I mean? Y- like you, if you had s- if you had heard what I grew up with, you'd see how nice I am, how good I am, how, you know, 'cause she's comparing that experience. Which doesn't mean that it's invalidated. It just means that what you said, there's that asymmetry-

   14. MBMatthias Barker15:35

       Yeah

   15. JFJefferson Fisher15:35

       ... of alignment. And so what can that do? That is, if we're, we're saying, all right, we're in this box of adults, um, what could be leaving adults in more of like a, "I don't know what, what in the world I did," is because they're seeing it through the lens of how they were raised in their culture.

   16. MBMatthias Barker15:52

       Yeah. "I gave you a world that was 10 times better than what I had."

   17. JFJefferson Fisher15:55

       Exactly.

   18. MBMatthias Barker15:55

       Yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher15:56

       Yeah. Y- do you know how, like, uh, how m- much more-

   20. MBMatthias Barker15:59

       Yeah

   21. JFJefferson Fisher16:00

       ... I do than my-

   22. MBMatthias Barker16:00

       And they're telling the truth.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher16:01

       Abso- that's the point.

   24. MBMatthias Barker16:02

       That's the point. [laughs]

   25. JFJefferson Fisher16:03

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. MBMatthias Barker16:03

       Yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher16:03

       They're, they're-- That's not to be invalidated.

   28. MBMatthias Barker16:06

       No.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher16:06

       And-

   30. MBMatthias Barker16:06

       Two things can be true at the same time.
7. 18:20 – 26:34

   Repair fundamentals: grief, specificity, and language that lands

   1. JFJefferson Fisher18:20

      Exactly.

   2. MBMatthias Barker18:20

      I'm like, there's some hurt in their heart. Are you curious to know what it is?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher18:25

      Yeah.

   4. MBMatthias Barker18:25

      And then can you grieve with them? That's the word I actually think makes the most sense. We talk a lot about validation. Validation is hard because it's like, well, am I agreeing with them? Uh, am I, am I, like, validating their negative narrative? Uh, the, the word I think is actually closer to the center is- Like, for example, "Mom, uh, I never really felt like you encouraged me a lot as a kid. You were always really hard on me about grades."

   5. JFJefferson Fisher18:47

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MBMatthias Barker18:47

      "And I just felt like nothing was good enough for you."

   7. JFJefferson Fisher18:49

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MBMatthias Barker18:50

      It's like in my mind, I'm thinking, "I was trying to help you. I was trying to help you succeed. Like, what do you mean I didn't love you?" Like, what about all the times-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher18:55

      Yeah

   10. MBMatthias Barker18:55

       ... that I, like, I cooked for you, and I cleaned for you, and I was at every game?" Like, it's easy to go down that path of defensiveness.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher19:00

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MBMatthias Barker19:00

       But then to back up and be like, "Can I grieve that there is something they desired from me?"

   13. JFJefferson Fisher19:06

       Yes.

   14. MBMatthias Barker19:06

       There was love they didn't experience from me that they wanted to experience. That doesn't mean I didn't express it.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher19:11

       Yeah.

   16. MBMatthias Barker19:11

       I might have expressed all the love I had in my heart, but they didn't receive the love, experience the love that I had in my heart-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher19:18

       Mm-hmm

   18. MBMatthias Barker19:18

       ... in the way that made sense to them. And so I can back up, and I can say something, not like I'm agreeing with all their negative nar- Like, "Oh, you're right, honey, I never loved you." You're not saying stuff like that. What you are saying is like, "Tell me what it was like when I was really getting on you about grades."

   19. JFJefferson Fisher19:33

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MBMatthias Barker19:34

       "And you just really needed my encouragement."

   21. JFJefferson Fisher19:36

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MBMatthias Barker19:36

       "What were some of the things you really wished you could hear from me in those moments?"

   23. JFJefferson Fisher19:40

       Yeah.

   24. MBMatthias Barker19:41

       And then kid's like, "Well, I just wish I was good enough without having just to perform for you." "Oh, honey, I, I clearly did not do a good enough job of making sure you knew-"

   25. JFJefferson Fisher19:51

       Mm-hmm

   26. MBMatthias Barker19:52

       ... how proud I am of you." And that's powerful because you didn't acknowledge some negative thing like, "Oh, I wasn't proud of you."

   27. JFJefferson Fisher20:00

       Yeah, you're not getting defensive.

   28. MBMatthias Barker20:00

       You're not undercutting your love. You're not getting defensive.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher20:02

       Right.

   30. MBMatthias Barker20:02

       And you are acknowledging that just 'cause I had it in my heart, it doesn't mean... Just 'cause I sent the mail doesn't mean they received it.
8. 26:34 – 39:21

   Jefferson’s rupture-repair framework (and Matthias’ key refinement)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher26:34

      So I have a framework that I've been teaching on how to repair-

   2. MBMatthias Barker26:40

      Okay

   3. JFJefferson Fisher26:40

      ... after a rupture.

   4. MBMatthias Barker26:41

      I wanna hear it.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher26:41

      And estrangement is definitely a very big rupture.

   6. MBMatthias Barker26:44

      That's good.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher26:45

      And so I want you to critique it for me.

   8. MBMatthias Barker26:49

      Hmm.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher26:49

      Now that I have my estrangement expert with me.

   10. MBMatthias Barker26:50

       All right. All right. Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher26:51

       Okay. First is there has to be ownership. Uh, you have to take accountability. Say, "I did that. That happened," which is really hard for some people. It's not mean... It doesn't mean you're right or I'm wrong. It's, "That happened." So you have to have that kind of ownership of it. Second is affirming the feeling. "That sounds frustrating. That sounds hopeless. I hear you. I hear all of that." It's like you are simply just, how you feel is absolutely okay to feel.

   12. MBMatthias Barker27:22

       Yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher27:22

       It's not trying to tell them to feel a, a different way about it. And third is, "What hurts you, hurts me."

   14. MBMatthias Barker27:29

       Hmm.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher27:30

       So-

   16. MBMatthias Barker27:30

       That's good

   17. JFJefferson Fisher27:31

       ... meaning, "I hate that I've caused you this much pain, and I had no clue about it. I hate that I have..." Like, you need to show that your pain makes a difference in how I'm currently feeling in the present, even though it happened in the past. And then last is next time.

   18. MBMatthias Barker27:48

       All right.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher27:48

       Meaning, "If I could do it differently, what I would do is," um, you know, some kind of action step or, "What I hear or what I've learned is that this is, I'm not gonna bring this up anymore. That this is something that we're gonna leave, and I own that I, I, I used to bring that up. Hearing you, I'm not gonna do that anymore." Uh, and when you package it that way, without a single, "But what about," "But yeah, but," or beginning with, "That's not. That's not true. That's not what I said. That's not what happened."

   20. MBMatthias Barker28:18

       Yeah.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher28:19

       That kind of stuff, you know, your best efforts got you here.

   22. MBMatthias Barker28:23

       Yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher28:23

       All right? And so what are you gonna do about it? You can't say that all I did was perfect-

   24. MBMatthias Barker28:27

       Mm-hmm

   25. JFJefferson Fisher28:27

       ... when you're, when you're right here. So I need the m- the Matthias-

   26. MBMatthias Barker28:30

       I love it. The one, um, subpoint I put under your first step-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher28:35

       Yeah

   28. MBMatthias Barker28:35

       ... of own it-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher28:35

       Mm-hmm

   30. MBMatthias Barker28:36

       ... is you're owning the facts, not their story.
9. 39:21 – 48:14

   Third-party conflict (daughter-in-law/ex-spouse): ‘hurt in the soil’ and therapy invites

   1. JFJefferson Fisher39:21

      Here's one thing I, I did want to mention to you. I, I wanted to ask you to this. What do you do, what do you tell specifically mothers whose son has married and they have a daughter-in-law now-

   2. MBMatthias Barker39:36

      Hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher39:37

      ... who has cut their son off from them?

   4. MBMatthias Barker39:42

      Hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher39:42

      In other words, this, this daughter-in-law, for good intentions, bad intentions, all the above, has said, "I'm the person who's gonna say all the experience of what you are to think, and I'm gonna cut everything else off." What, what do you... Is that, one, is that something you see?

   6. MBMatthias Barker39:59

      So common.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher39:59

      And then two, what do you tell these, these mothers?

   8. MBMatthias Barker40:02

      Great. There was a study by Josh Coleman and, and colleagues. He's a, he's a friend of mine. Um, he interviewed 1,000 mothers, and 80% of them when you ask them like, "Well, what's causing the estrangement?" cited either, uh, most often a daughter-in-law, but, but the, their child's spouse-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher40:17

      Mm-hmm

   10. MBMatthias Barker40:17

       ... or their ex-partner as essentially sabotaging or, um, uh, kind of-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher40:22

       Ex-husband

   12. MBMatthias Barker40:22

       ... just pointing. Yeah, an ex-husband.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher40:23

       After divorce.

   14. MBMatthias Barker40:24

       Yeah, pointing.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher40:24

       Okay.

   16. MBMatthias Barker40:24

       Right. Exactly. Uh, pointing their kid against them, and only 16% of those mothers thought that their behavior had something sort of to do with it. And so this is so, so common, in particular with mothers, in particular. And I don't really have an agenda of trying to say like, "Well, no, it's not that. The mot- the daughter-in-laws are fine," or, or, "You need to look at your own stuff." Like, it can totally happen.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher40:46

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MBMatthias Barker40:46

       It can totally happen where you marry into a new family. There's a totally different culture, totally different milieu. The daughter-in-law has a negative experience of the mother and then starts to have conversation, and that kind starts to feed into like a negative view of the family or-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher40:59

       Hmm

   20. MBMatthias Barker40:59

       ... of the parent.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher41:00

       Right.

   22. MBMatthias Barker41:00

       Totally happens. My thing that I always ask parents to look at is like, um, lies, let's say it's a lie, lies can't take root if there's not hurt in the soil.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher41:09

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MBMatthias Barker41:10

       So for example, um, I don't have a dog. Do you have a dog? You don't have a dog. I don't see any dogs.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher41:15

       Do not have a dog.

   26. MBMatthias Barker41:15

       I don't see any dogs.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher41:16

       I mean, I'm not against dogs, but we're just-

   28. MBMatthias Barker41:18

       Yeah. Can you imagine the hate we'd get if we just announced we're, Jefferson and Matthias are against dogs?

   29. JFJefferson Fisher41:22

       We are... Oh my goodness. That would be-

   30. MBMatthias Barker41:24

       [laughs]
10. 48:14 – 57:30

    Choosing the medium: brief messages, voicemail, postcards, and avoiding AI letters

    1. JFJefferson Fisher48:14

       ... than you are closing it. One thing I'm picking up on is when you're going into the mode of, like, explaining and talking, your voice gets really quiet.

    2. MBMatthias Barker48:21

       Hmm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher48:22

       So if we're gonna say this, you know, how do you... What does this kind of stuff sound like? If it's in a text or a letter or, um, you know, anything that is a very text-based transaction, you're not gonna be able to whisper, right?

    4. MBMatthias Barker48:38

       [laughs] Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher48:39

       So I do think less words is better.

    6. MBMatthias Barker48:42

       Yeah. Yeah, be brief.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher48:43

       What would you say to, "I like a voicemail," if they'll allow you to have a voicemail?

    8. MBMatthias Barker48:48

       That's a good idea. I don't think about that as much.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher48:50

       Yeah.

    10. MBMatthias Barker48:51

        I'm gonna use that and incorporate that. I think when you can hear someone's voice, you hear the emotion in their voice.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher48:55

        Correct. That, that way they won't... You know, you hear pain.

    12. MBMatthias Barker48:58

        Ah, Jefferson, I'm taking that. I'm-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher48:59

        You can't, you can't read pain.

    14. MBMatthias Barker49:00

        I'm frustrated. I didn't think of that.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher49:02

        No, it's good.

    16. MBMatthias Barker49:03

        Um, you're right. Voicemail. Yeah, that should be at the top of the list

    17. JFJefferson Fisher49:05

        Yeah, you can-- And you can check out my profile on a stringcan.com.

    18. MBMatthias Barker49:09

        [laughs]

    19. JFJefferson Fisher49:10

        Yeah. [laughs]

    20. MBMatthias Barker49:10

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher49:10

        Further tips.

    22. MBMatthias Barker49:11

        Yeah, yeah.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher49:11

        That's good. Before we get going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Square. I want you to think of your favorite cafe, your favorite restaurant. For me, it is the little bitty lemonade stand that I passed by in our neighborhood yesterday. And I went, and this sweet little, perfect little girl had Square connected as a little chip, uh, card reader that was connected to her mom's phone. Mom was there in the back. And what I have to tell you that I love is using Square for all businesses from big to small. It's versatile. It can take, uh, payments wherever you are. And when somebody has Square, you go, "Ah, thank you. This is a business that actually cares about itself." And I can promise you that little girl at the lemonade stand's probably gonna be some, you know, uh, multimillionaire, uh, business empire before we know it. One of the best things about Square is that as a business owner, you know that a lot of different platforms do a lot of different things. So when you have a f- a product like Square that can do everything in one, from tracking sales, tracking inventory, uh, making sure that it's collecting payments and helping right there on the spot, whether it's a POS system, point-of-sale system, or it is something that you just need to use on an iPad or a phone, it- it's all in one. Right now, you can go to square.com/go/jefferson and get up to $200 off your hardware. That's, that's a big deal. $200 off. Square.com/go/jefferson for $200 off. Use the code Jefferson for $200 off your hardware. And now, let's keep going. I firmly agree when they say, "How do I," in repair language, if I'm gonna be in the act of repairing, uh, regardless of the rupture, you have to be able to lower that voice because the softer it is-

    24. MBMatthias Barker50:57

        You approach them with, with tenderness-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher50:58

        That-

    26. MBMatthias Barker50:58

        ... with softness

    27. JFJefferson Fisher50:59

        ... has softness, and it's really hard to be soft sometimes when you're, when you're flooded. It's almo- to me, it's, it's impossible really for me. When I know I'm-

    28. MBMatthias Barker51:07

        Yeah

    29. JFJefferson Fisher51:07

        ... getting defensive and being really har- it's-- I don't, I don't wanna be soft.

    30. MBMatthias Barker51:11

        Right.
11. 57:30 – 1:06:47

    Fathers and estrangement: why it’s more common and what dads can do differently

    1. JFJefferson Fisher57:30

       They're gonna be assuming and saying it all in your head, and it's not gonna be what you want. I wanna go, uh, we talked about moms. I wanna talk about dads. Um, like you, I hear from a lot of dads who go, "Yeah, um, my wife and I divorced. Um, I work, you know, and I, I reborn to my work, and I didn't wanna come home. And yes, I was emotionally unavailable because she was home, and I didn't wanna do this, and it left me away from my kids. And now my daughters or my sons are now... It's, it's been 10 years, and they hate my guts, and I don't know how to respond to that. And they feel like I, I'm the one paying for things and trying to do-

    2. MBMatthias Barker58:10

       Right

    3. JFJefferson Fisher58:10

       ... stuff, and it's all the more..." Even when they've had-- Like, I talk to dads who've, they've remarried, right? Or they have other kids, or they're taking on stepkids, and yet they cannot reach-

    4. MBMatthias Barker58:25

       Hmm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher58:25

       ... their own biological children.

    6. MBMatthias Barker58:27

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher58:27

       Does that... Are... Do you see that?

    8. MBMatthias Barker58:29

       So common.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher58:29

       Yeah.

    10. MBMatthias Barker58:30

        It's, it's more common than mothers. I mean, so when you look at the data-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher58:33

        Really?

    12. MBMatthias Barker58:33

        ... so, like, Rexach and colleagues showed that, uh, like, a fourth of the population is estranged from a parent. 26% is estranged from fathers. Only 6% are estranged from mothers-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher58:43

        I wonder-

    14. MBMatthias Barker58:43

        ... of that population

    15. JFJefferson Fisher58:44

        ... I wonder how many is, of like how many fathers are wanting to come back.

    16. MBMatthias Barker58:48

        Well-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher58:48

        Or those that just, like, d- wanna do nothing with them and left the family and, you know, just ran off.

    18. MBMatthias Barker58:53

        Well, here's what I see more often is, like, there's so much pain, and Dad doesn't know what to say, and so he chooses to be silent. And not-

    19. JFJefferson Fisher59:03

        Hmm

    20. MBMatthias Barker59:03

        ... because he doesn't care, not because he's stubborn-

    21. JFJefferson Fisher59:07

        Right

    22. MBMatthias Barker59:07

        ... but because he doesn't wanna make it worse. And so it's like, "How do I reach out to you? How do I make this right? How do I do this?" And so some common avenues, there's like, "I try to financially provide. I try to do gifts. I try to show up and do acts of service." Like, I try to, like, be there in some of those ways.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher59:24

        Sometimes that's cut against them, as like all they do is just send a gift, and they think a gift is gonna get them in.

    24. MBMatthias Barker59:28

        Yeah, 'cause it's interpreted by the kid most often as almost like bribery. You're trying to buy my way back.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher59:32

        Right.

    26. MBMatthias Barker59:32

        And that's not how the dad means it. It's just that's, that's a common-

    27. JFJefferson Fisher59:35

        Yeah

    28. MBMatthias Barker59:35

        ... way it's experienced. So-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher59:37

        What are the other avenues?

    30. MBMatthias Barker59:38

        Well, I think that it's helpful to know that there's some data that shows that sons are more often to find, like, some of the, like, s- let's say, kinda, um, some of the points of conflict, some of the friction in the relationship. It's more common that sons feel frustration over Dad's politics, and it's more common that daughters take more issue with Dad's religious or lack of religious belief. That some of the actual arguments can cut differently depending on sons and daughters.
12. 1:06:47 – 1:17:51

    Living with uncertainty: ‘peace with what’s possible’ and sustainable hope

    1. MBMatthias Barker1:06:47

       Our, our tagline at estrangement.com, we say it over and over and over, is peace with what's possible.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:53

       What does that mean, peace with what's possible?

    3. MBMatthias Barker1:06:55

       It's I don't know what's possible with your family member. I don't know what's possible with your kid. I don't know when reconciliation may or may not come, but I want you to be experiencing peace as you're on your way to figuring out what's possible. Estrangement, family conflict is a roller coaster.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:10

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MBMatthias Barker1:07:11

       And it doesn't just end when you start talking again. Oftentimes, even if there's been a period of estrangement, a year, two years, five years, 10, you get back into contact, and then it's a long road of trying to find a way to feel calm and relaxed around each other again and connect. Oftentimes, what we see in the data is there's multiple estrangements. Sometimes you talk again, and then you're off, and then you hang out for a bit, and then six months go by, you don't hear from them.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:34

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MBMatthias Barker1:07:34

       That's more common than not. So this is actually a longer journey, not just one objective, which is get them to start talking to me again.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:07:43

       How does someone know Whether they should give up from that estranged family member or whether they should hold on for hope

    9. MBMatthias Barker1:07:54

       Well, we need to accept what's true today and then hope for what's possible tomorrow. But how you hope-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:01

        Mm-hmm

    11. MBMatthias Barker1:08:01

        ... is going to determine if it's suffering for you or if you can live a full, meaningful life in the meantime. If you think of hope like a pull-up bar, like you're just, like, straining to keep your chin above it and your muscles are shaking, and it's like, "I hope they call. I hope they text. Christmas is here. My birthday's here. Are they gonna text me?"

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:16

        Mm.

    13. MBMatthias Barker1:08:16

        It's gonna feel exhausting. You're gonna feel hopeless. You're gonna get self-critical. It's gonna be miserable.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:21

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MBMatthias Barker1:08:22

        I think of hope like keeping the porch light on. It's like, it-- And even with the door locked, it's not like they can come barging in at any time, but I am willing to come to the threshold if they're willing to have a different conversation. If they come knocking, then I'm willing to go look in the peephole and see what conversation is there. That kind of hope doesn't keep me standing at the window, looking at the road, wondering if they're gonna come.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:45

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MBMatthias Barker1:08:45

        It's a hope where I can be in the kitchen making food, having friends over, involved in my community, playing pickleball, doing my life with the, just the reality of they might have a change of heart. We don't know.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:08:58

        Yeah.

    19. MBMatthias Barker1:08:58

        People have health crises. People have religious experiences. People have all sorts of things that give them a change of heart that-

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:04

        Mm-hmm

    21. MBMatthias Barker1:09:04

        ... we can't predict. It feels safer to just say, "They're never coming back. I'm just gonna essentially mourn them as if I'm never gonna see them again." That's to resolve ambiguity.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:14

        Mm-hmm.

    23. MBMatthias Barker1:09:15

        Because ambiguity is suffering.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:16

        You're searching for clarity.

    25. MBMatthias Barker1:09:17

        Yeah.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:17

        You're searching for certainty.

    27. MBMatthias Barker1:09:19

        And the reality is there is no certainty about the future.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:21

        Yeah.

    29. MBMatthias Barker1:09:21

        That's reality. I would so much rather build your peace on reality than on some fantasy, even if it's a harder fantasy that you can accept.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:09:28

        Yeah. What I often like to tell people is sometimes you have to live out the conversation that you wish you would have.
13. 1:17:51 – 1:21:39

    Avoid the big traps: defensiveness, emotional dumping, and making your child your therapist

    1. JFJefferson Fisher1:17:51

       I think how you respond to the moment that you have entered into estrangement with as, either a parent or as, as an adult child, is going to either-- Like, the approach you take is either going to confirm all of the patterns and fears-

    2. MBMatthias Barker1:18:09

       Mm-hmm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:09

       ... and history that they have, or it's going to set you on a different approach that is gonna say, "I'm interested in healing and doing something different." Because if you-

    4. MBMatthias Barker1:18:17

       Yeah

    5. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:18

       ... have, like, a child who goes, "You know what, Mom? I feel-- Or Dad, I feel like you just care about everybody else's opinion except ours." Everybody on the outside the house knew, you know, that we're p-so perfect, right? We went to church, and we're so perfect, and, you know, and we don't talk about drama and, you know, heaven forbid-

    6. MBMatthias Barker1:18:37

       Right

    7. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:38

       ... that people think that we actually have things to go through, and yet on the inside, we're actually crumbling, right?

    8. MBMatthias Barker1:18:43

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:43

       And if it, if as that adult, you're going, "Oh, but okay, don't tell anybody about this. Don't, they don't need to know about..." Like, you're just feeding that right there. So I think there... I, I-- That falls into the there's some traps-

    10. MBMatthias Barker1:18:59

        Mm-hmm

    11. JFJefferson Fisher1:18:59

        ... of which you don't want to do when it's-- you can see that estrangement's taking place. One of them, I think, is what I said, is affirming already the pattern that's been happening.

    12. MBMatthias Barker1:19:07

        Yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:08

        What have you seen as some other traps of when you see that estrangement's taking place? Some-- The areas to absolutely-- the pitfalls to avoid.

    14. MBMatthias Barker1:19:17

        Yeah. Emotional dumping is a big one. That's-- A lot of people don't think of that one first, but it's so common that when I have regret or I'm really nervous or I'm scared, I pour out my worry. I pour out my concern. I feel like you're pulling away from me. Like, I really want us to be a family again.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:32

        Yeah.

    16. MBMatthias Barker1:19:32

        Like, listen, I've really tried, and that's what leads to the explaining. That's what leads to the defensiveness is I'm-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:37

        Justification

    18. MBMatthias Barker1:19:38

        ... I'm terrified that I'm gonna lose you.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:41

        Right.

    20. MBMatthias Barker1:19:41

        And I just-- It's almost like I bubble up with all of that, and it just pours out.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:45

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MBMatthias Barker1:19:46

        So you could think like there's two errors. The-there's the error of, like, resentment-

    23. JFJefferson Fisher1:19:49

        Mm-hmm

    24. MBMatthias Barker1:19:49

        ... and getting angry and defensive and frustrated and argumentative, but then there's also the error of, like, um, dumping out all your emotions and kind of spiraling 'cause then the kid feels like, "Oh, I gotta take care of you. I gotta be your therapist," and like-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:01

        Yeah. "Here, I gotta take care of my parent again."

    26. MBMatthias Barker1:20:02

        "I can't tell my mom anything 'cause every time it just sends her into a spiral."

    27. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:06

        Yeah.

    28. MBMatthias Barker1:20:06

        Uh, they can't handle it.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher1:20:08

        Yeah.

    30. MBMatthias Barker1:20:08

        And so with that-

Episode duration: 1:21:39