THIS is How To Be Direct Without Hurting People | Jefferson Fisher

Speaker 0:00 You mention being direct, because sometimes you have to say tough stuff. There's no sugarcoating it.

Jefferson Fisher 0:07 Yeah, all the time.

Speaker 0:07 Um, how do you make sure that you're direct? How do you make sure that you talk a lot about values in your communication when it's n- a difficult conversation? Like, how do you make sure to navigate that in a way where you're s- you're saying stuff they don't like to hear, but they still receive it and don't defend it?

Jefferson Fisher 0:28 Yeah. [laughs] Well, when it comes to being direct, a lot of people struggle with it because they would just rather it be a little bit more distant than it is. And the way I was taught is use the front door, that's what it's there for. And I feel like a lot of people try to go through the back door in conversations and let me... "I, you know, I don't wanna upset you," you know?

Speaker 0:54 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 0:56 If you want to be a leader, you have to learn the skill of disappointing people, and that's, that's part of being direct, is it's a skill to be able to give people bad news. And the m- and it s- sounds weird, but the more you do it, the better you get at it. That's the only way to get... It's not like you just naturally become really good at-

Speaker 1:19 Right

Jefferson Fisher 1:19 ... at upsetting people or giving them hard news or something. It's y- you can either choose to w- say the nice thing or the kind thing, and I always say say the, the kind thing. Nice says, "Ah, I can't say that. That's not nice. That's... I, I can't, I can't tell them that." Kind says, "Look, I care about you enough to tell you the, the truth of what you need to hear."

Speaker 1:45 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:45 So how do you, how do you package that in a way that, uh, you can use in conversation? One is, is not doing the, the slow roll, where you're trying to sugarcoat, and then you do the, "So listen, uh, as you know, you know, markets aren't really great these days, and, you know, the, the economy, you know, we got this economy." You know, the stuff that they already, they already feel it coming.

Speaker 2:10 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 2:10 They already feel it coming. I would much rather you s- label the conversation right out of the gate. Say, "This is gonna be hard to hear. I need to be really direct with you. I'm going to be very direct with you." It, it's, it is a... It feels like a punch, but it's much more of a flick, and it's gonna sting for a second, and then they'll get over it because now they're in the truth of it. Now they, now they have the information. The worst part is the lead-up where they don't have the information. So it's, sometimes it's like, "Just, can you just tell it to me? What's, what's the news? What's the bad news?" Because you're just like, "Oh, I don't wanna."

Speaker 2:51 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 2:51 It's, and it's physically uncomfortable, too.

Speaker 2:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:55 But the more you understand that it's in their, "I'm saying this for your benefit because it's my job not to just tell you the good. It's also my job to tell you the bad."

Speaker 3:05 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 3:06 "And we're gonna have a lot of both in this relationship. And this is one of those times where it's not great. That doesn't mean it's forever. It does mean it's right now."

Speaker 3:15 And I would assume-

Jefferson Fisher 3:17 [laughs]

Speaker 3:19 ... as- assuming you can help them navigate their way out of it-

Jefferson Fisher 3:21 Yeah

Speaker 3:21 ... "Hey, I'm here. I'm beside you. We're in this together. I'm gonna help you navigate through it."

Jefferson Fisher 3:25 "This is why I'm here."

Speaker 3:26 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 3:27 "This is why, this is why I exist."

Speaker 3:30 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 3:30 "This is my purpose, to make the hard times easier."

Speaker 3:34 And then is there any part of, like, a good bedside manner where it's like, "And by the way, this isn't the first time I've dealt with this. We'll get through this," where you're, you're kind of showing them a little light at the end of the tunnel? Obviously, you need to make sure it's the truth still. But is there any of that? Like, you hit them with-

Jefferson Fisher 3:48 Mm

Speaker 3:48 ... the direct hard stuff, kind of normalizing it a bit where, hey, other people have gone through this through too and come out the other side, or no?

Jefferson Fisher 3:56 You're gonna have to first, once you give the news, you're going to have to brace for a reaction.

Speaker 4:01 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:02 Everybody's different. There's been people I've given bad news to, and they were like, "Mm," you know? That's all I got was a grunt.

Speaker 4:08 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:08 And then other people just lost their minds.

Speaker 4:10 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:11 What I have to do, no matter what, is to be able to acknowledge whatever feeling they're feeling. You cannot tell them not to feel that way. You can't be like, "No, no, no, no, wait, you, you, you shouldn't feel that because you see all these other things." That don't matter. It's, it matters they're feeling it now.

Speaker 4:26 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:26 So rather than trying to push them away from it, you have to get really disciplined about affirming it. "I agree. I, I agree that isn't fair. I agree that doesn't feel fair. If I were in your same position, I'd be upset, too." You, you have to be in a way that says, "Everything you're feeling is justified right now, even if it's not the truth of the matter, and I know that things are gonna get better." You have to have, let them have their moment.

Speaker 4:50 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:52 And then that's when you have... Like, you can't just rush them through that. You have to have space for that, that time in the conversation where they get to kind of just have a reaction. Then w- and you're gonna know when the time's right. When it's, like, just a, a fresh breeze in the conversation where you get to ask, "Can I give you a little bit of hope?" And they're gonna say, "Yes, please," like somebody who's thirsty.

Speaker 5:14 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:15 "I've seen this a lot. And what I've seen every single time is that they get through it, and in fact, they're, they're better for it. And I think that's gonna be the situation here."

Speaker 5:26 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:27 Yeah, I mean, that to me goes, "Oh, okay, great. Now I'm in a much better place," rather than you going, "Well, you shouldn't be mad about this, though, because, you know..." That's only gonna make them more upset. That's like telling somebody to calm down-

Speaker 5:38 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 5:38 ... when they're upset. Like, good luck.

Speaker 5:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 5:40 That's not gonna, that's not gonna ever happen.

Speaker 5:41 Opposite effect engaged.

Jefferson Fisher 5:43 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5:45 Um, so what I, what I'm, what I'm hearing there is that middle, that middle space. So you hit them with the hard news, the direct. There's a middle space. It could be short. It could be long, but there's a, there's a space where empathy is needed.

Jefferson Fisher 6:00 Yes.

Speaker 6:00 And I think a lot of advisors struggle with that because they almost get desensitized. They're like, "I've seen this problem ... 100 times before. Now, for that individual across the table, that's the first time they're experiencing it, but the advisor has seen it so many times, it's like an ER doctor that, like, somebody's arm's chopped off, they're like, "Oh, I've seen this before-

Jefferson Fisher 6:19 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 6:19 ... not a big deal."

Jefferson Fisher 6:19 Uh-huh.

Speaker 6:20 So how do you start to make sure you're, like, checking yourself, like, to where you're not going through the motions as an advisor? I'm sure as an attorney you see the same things over and over.

Jefferson Fisher 6:31 Right.

Speaker 6:31 You almost have to... It's like a mindset thing for you. Are there m- mental practices that you have where you're like, "Give them space. Meet them where they're at."

Jefferson Fisher 6:41 Yeah.

Speaker 6:41 "Listen. Acknowledge." Like-

Jefferson Fisher 6:44 Right

Speaker 6:44 ... are you going through a mental framework like that when you're, like, needing to stay in the moment yourself?

Jefferson Fisher 6:49 I wish I could tell you I, I do, but I don't. I mean, because life happens.

Speaker 6:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 6:55 It's, it's more of this, um, kind of state of mind that I try to remember what's my purpose in their life-

Speaker 7:06 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 7:07 ... not, not what's their purpose in mine. It's, uh, because if I think of what's, what's their role in my life, I don't... It's easy to just not really care about their problems.

Speaker 7:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:19 I'm, I'm focused on what Jefferson's doing.

Speaker 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 7:22 Um, but if I reverse it and I say, "What's my role in their life?" Then I'm able to kind of step outside of myself and understand they had a beginning and they'll have an end, and I have a very small part to play in the right now.

Speaker 7:42 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 7:42 That, that's where my mind goes.

Speaker 7:44 I love that. It's almost like a spiritual approach to it a bit.

Jefferson Fisher 7:47 Yeah. Oh, heavy.

Speaker 7:48 That's, that's what I'm hearing.

Jefferson Fisher 7:49 Yeah, heavy.

Speaker 7:50 Yeah. Servant mindset.

Jefferson Fisher 7:51 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:53 Um, you talk about your values being your compass, which kind of, if you talk about spirituality and how you serve them-

Jefferson Fisher 8:01 Yeah

Speaker 8:01 ... uh, when somebody comes at you, I'm sure you've had some people come at you [laughs] probably with some choice words in there.

Jefferson Fisher 8:08 For sure.

Speaker 8:09 Um, how do you make sure, regardless of how somebody's communicating at me, I will stay true to myself and be proud of how I communicate and how I represent myself?

Jefferson Fisher 8:22 I had, a, a really great role model. Still do. Uh, my dad. I, I mean, I grew up in courthouses.

Speaker 8:30 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:31 And so I saw a lot and heard a lot. And my dad was the type that just not much would ruffle his feathers.

Speaker 8:40 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 8:42 And I mean, he's the type that, you know, I'd be in the passenger seat, we'd be going somewhere, Dad's driving and in the side mirror I can see somebody's riding our tail. What does that do to me? I'm, I, I kind of have this anxiety of like, "All right, Dad, we gotta... You need to go faster," or like, "Mo- you gotta do something." And, uh, it's usually like, "Hey, Dad, I think you need to, like, speed up. They're on us." He's like, "Oh yeah, I see 'em." And he just keeps driving. And so when it's safe, we'll hit... I mean, it never failed. He would just kind of merge over into the shoulder and do his hand, and he'd always say, "Go on with your bad self." Every time. He's like, "Go on, go on with your bad self," while he's driving. And that's the mentality that I, I really saw a lot of. And I, when I would get heated about something with, usually with my mom, my dad would be like... [laughs] My, my dad would always, um, have this kind of mentality of, "Well, what do you think she's thinking when you do that?"

Speaker 9:54 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 9:54 Like, ah, don't make me think about that. That's not what... I, I wanna think about what I'm upset about. And so he was always making me think about the other stuff.

Speaker 10:02 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 10:02 He'd say, "Don't, don't make that your Alamo," if anybody knows Texas history. He's, he'd say, "Don't make that your Alamo. What's, what's... Yeah, they're gonna be upset about it and you're gonna... What are you gonna do?" So what, what's helped me is when somebody has choice words for me, I get to choose in that moment, do I want to be the one carrying those forever, or do I want them to be carrying it? Somebody's gonna carry it. But those words aren't gonna go nowhere.

Speaker 10:31 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 10:33 So I could either be the one who remembers what so-and-so said 10 years ago, something they probably don't even remember, or do I wanna be the person who doesn't remember what so-and-so said, but they do-

Speaker 10:52 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 10:52 ... and they still feel bad about it all these 10 years later.

Speaker 10:56 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 10:56 Yeah, I'd much rather be where I'm not carrying somebody's words for free.

Speaker 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 11:03 I think that's what happens a, a lot, is we, we choose to remember things far longer than they need to be. But if I just have this mentality of, "Ah, I don't have to pick those up."

Speaker 11:16 Y- your dad trained you from a young age by example.

Jefferson Fisher 11:20 For sure, yes.

Speaker 11:20 Number one.

Jefferson Fisher 11:21 Yeah.

Speaker 11:22 Great lesson as a parent as well. Um, but he said, "What, what are they thinking?" So he made you walk in their shoes, whether it was your mom or I'm sure somebody else.

Jefferson Fisher 11:32 Yeah.

Speaker 11:32 That's a great life lesson right there. Just-

Jefferson Fisher 11:34 He'd always make me play it out.

Speaker 11:35 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 11:36 He'd say, "Okay, you say this-"

Speaker 11:37 So he'd unpack it?

Jefferson Fisher 11:37 Yeah.

Speaker 11:37 Like, so you'd-

Jefferson Fisher 11:38 Uh-huh

Speaker 11:38 ... you'd say, "Here's what I think she's thinking." Then he'd, like, almost depose you a little bit? Or-

Jefferson Fisher 11:42 Yeah. Oh, it was all, uh-

Speaker 11:43 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 11:43 ... what they call Socratic method-

Speaker 11:45 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 11:45 ... in law school. So you teach by asking questions.

Speaker 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 11:49 Same way they talk about, like, cases and stuff-

Speaker 11:51 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 11:51 ... in, in law school. So he'd talk about historic cases, and then the professor calls you up, stands you up, and asks you questions, and uses those questions that you answer, 'cause you have to do your reading, to teach the class.

Speaker 12:02 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 12:03 And so that's, that's kind of how that was done to me. So he'd say, "Okay, what did you say? What did she say? All right. When you said that, how do you think she felt? And because she felt that way, what do you think she's gonna wanna do next?" And so he would play out five, 10 steps after the conversation would happen. And then he would always be like, "You sure you really wanna go say that?" You know, you'd be like, "Nah, I don't really." "Okay, that's what I thought." I, I'm just realizing it's, it's really not typically worth it.

Speaker 12:34 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 12:34 You know, it wasn't, it wasn't worth that, that, um, that, that, that moment that you thought you needed to get that hit of dopamine, 'cause you knew if you said that it was just gonna land so good.

Speaker 12:45 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 12:45 Just realized really on, oh, that's a really pretty hollow feeling.

Speaker 12:52 My 15-year-old doesn't know what's about to hit him when I get home. Jefferson-

Jefferson Fisher 12:55 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 12:55 ... this is gonna be fun. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 12:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

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