THIS is How To Be Direct Without Hurting People | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 1:19

   Why being direct is hard—and why leaders must learn to disappoint

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      You mention being direct, because sometimes you have to say tough stuff. There's no sugarcoating it.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:07

      Yeah, all the time.

   3. SPSpeaker0:07

      Um, how do you make sure that you're direct? How do you make sure that you talk a lot about values in your communication when it's n- a difficult conversation? Like, how do you make sure to navigate that in a way where you're s- you're saying stuff they don't like to hear, but they still receive it and don't defend it?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:28

      Yeah. [laughs] Well, when it comes to being direct, a lot of people struggle with it because they would just rather it be a little bit more distant than it is. And the way I was taught is use the front door, that's what it's there for. And I feel like a lot of people try to go through the back door in conversations and let me... "I, you know, I don't wanna upset you," you know?

   5. SPSpeaker0:54

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:56

      If you want to be a leader, you have to learn the skill of disappointing people, and that's, that's part of being direct, is it's a skill to be able to give people bad news. And the m- and it s- sounds weird, but the more you do it, the better you get at it. That's the only way to get... It's not like you just naturally become really good at-

   7. SPSpeaker1:19

      Right

2. 1:19 – 1:45

   Choose “kind” over “nice” when saying tough truths

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:19

      ... at upsetting people or giving them hard news or something. It's y- you can either choose to w- say the nice thing or the kind thing, and I always say say the, the kind thing. Nice says, "Ah, I can't say that. That's not nice. That's... I, I can't, I can't tell them that." Kind says, "Look, I care about you enough to tell you the, the truth of what you need to hear."

   2. SPSpeaker1:45

      Mm-hmm.

3. 1:45 – 2:55

   Skip the sugarcoat: label the hard conversation up front

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:45

      So how do you, how do you package that in a way that, uh, you can use in conversation? One is, is not doing the, the slow roll, where you're trying to sugarcoat, and then you do the, "So listen, uh, as you know, you know, markets aren't really great these days, and, you know, the, the economy, you know, we got this economy." You know, the stuff that they already, they already feel it coming.

   2. SPSpeaker2:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher2:10

      They already feel it coming. I would much rather you s- label the conversation right out of the gate. Say, "This is gonna be hard to hear. I need to be really direct with you. I'm going to be very direct with you." It, it's, it is a... It feels like a punch, but it's much more of a flick, and it's gonna sting for a second, and then they'll get over it because now they're in the truth of it. Now they, now they have the information. The worst part is the lead-up where they don't have the information. So it's, sometimes it's like, "Just, can you just tell it to me? What's, what's the news? What's the bad news?" Because you're just like, "Oh, I don't wanna."

   4. SPSpeaker2:51

      Hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:51

      It's, and it's physically uncomfortable, too.

   6. SPSpeaker2:54

      Yeah.

4. 2:55 – 3:19

   Deliver the message with context: it’s for their benefit, and it’s “right now”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:55

      But the more you understand that it's in their, "I'm saying this for your benefit because it's my job not to just tell you the good. It's also my job to tell you the bad."

   2. SPSpeaker3:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:06

      "And we're gonna have a lot of both in this relationship. And this is one of those times where it's not great. That doesn't mean it's forever. It does mean it's right now."

   4. SPSpeaker3:15

      And I would assume-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:17

      [laughs]

5. 3:19 – 3:56

   Pair truth with support: “I’m beside you—we’ll navigate this together”

   1. SPSpeaker3:19

      ... as- assuming you can help them navigate their way out of it-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:21

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker3:21

      ... "Hey, I'm here. I'm beside you. We're in this together. I'm gonna help you navigate through it."

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:25

      "This is why I'm here."

   5. SPSpeaker3:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:27

      "This is why, this is why I exist."

   7. SPSpeaker3:30

      Yeah.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:30

      "This is my purpose, to make the hard times easier."

   9. SPSpeaker3:34

      And then is there any part of, like, a good bedside manner where it's like, "And by the way, this isn't the first time I've dealt with this. We'll get through this," where you're, you're kind of showing them a little light at the end of the tunnel? Obviously, you need to make sure it's the truth still. But is there any of that? Like, you hit them with-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:48

       Mm

   11. SPSpeaker3:48

       ... the direct hard stuff, kind of normalizing it a bit where, hey, other people have gone through this through too and come out the other side, or no?

6. 3:56 – 4:11

   Brace for reaction first—don’t rush to optimism

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:56

      You're gonna have to first, once you give the news, you're going to have to brace for a reaction.

   2. SPSpeaker4:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:02

      Everybody's different. There's been people I've given bad news to, and they were like, "Mm," you know? That's all I got was a grunt.

   4. SPSpeaker4:08

      Yeah.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:08

      And then other people just lost their minds.

   6. SPSpeaker4:10

      Hmm.

7. 4:11 – 4:52

   Validate emotions without arguing them: disciplined affirmation

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:11

      What I have to do, no matter what, is to be able to acknowledge whatever feeling they're feeling. You cannot tell them not to feel that way. You can't be like, "No, no, no, no, wait, you, you, you shouldn't feel that because you see all these other things." That don't matter. It's, it matters they're feeling it now.

   2. SPSpeaker4:26

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:26

      So rather than trying to push them away from it, you have to get really disciplined about affirming it. "I agree. I, I agree that isn't fair. I agree that doesn't feel fair. If I were in your same position, I'd be upset, too." You, you have to be in a way that says, "Everything you're feeling is justified right now, even if it's not the truth of the matter, and I know that things are gonna get better." You have to have, let them have their moment.

   4. SPSpeaker4:50

      Mm.

8. 4:52 – 5:27

   When to introduce hope: ask permission and offer credible reassurance

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

      And then that's when you have... Like, you can't just rush them through that. You have to have space for that, that time in the conversation where they get to kind of just have a reaction. Then w- and you're gonna know when the time's right. When it's, like, just a, a fresh breeze in the conversation where you get to ask, "Can I give you a little bit of hope?" And they're gonna say, "Yes, please," like somebody who's thirsty.

   2. SPSpeaker5:14

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:15

      "I've seen this a lot. And what I've seen every single time is that they get through it, and in fact, they're, they're better for it. And I think that's gonna be the situation here."

   4. SPSpeaker5:26

      Hmm.

9. 5:27 – 5:45

   Why “calm down” backfires—and what empathy prevents

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:27

      Yeah, I mean, that to me goes, "Oh, okay, great. Now I'm in a much better place," rather than you going, "Well, you shouldn't be mad about this, though, because, you know..." That's only gonna make them more upset. That's like telling somebody to calm down-

   2. SPSpeaker5:38

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:38

      ... when they're upset. Like, good luck.

   4. SPSpeaker5:40

      Yeah.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:40

      That's not gonna, that's not gonna ever happen.

   6. SPSpeaker5:41

      Opposite effect engaged.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:43

      Yeah, yeah, exactly.

10. 5:45 – 6:49

    The “middle space” advisors miss: empathy between truth and solutions

    1. SPSpeaker5:45

       Um, so what I, what I'm, what I'm hearing there is that middle, that middle space. So you hit them with the hard news, the direct. There's a middle space. It could be short. It could be long, but there's a, there's a space where empathy is needed.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher6:00

       Yes.

    3. SPSpeaker6:00

       And I think a lot of advisors struggle with that because they almost get desensitized. They're like, "I've seen this problem ... 100 times before. Now, for that individual across the table, that's the first time they're experiencing it, but the advisor has seen it so many times, it's like an ER doctor that, like, somebody's arm's chopped off, they're like, "Oh, I've seen this before-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher6:19

       Yeah, yeah

    5. SPSpeaker6:19

       ... not a big deal."

    6. JFJefferson Fisher6:19

       Uh-huh.

    7. SPSpeaker6:20

       So how do you start to make sure you're, like, checking yourself, like, to where you're not going through the motions as an advisor? I'm sure as an attorney you see the same things over and over.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher6:31

       Right.

    9. SPSpeaker6:31

       You almost have to... It's like a mindset thing for you. Are there m- mental practices that you have where you're like, "Give them space. Meet them where they're at."

    10. JFJefferson Fisher6:41

        Yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker6:41

        "Listen. Acknowledge." Like-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher6:44

        Right

    13. SPSpeaker6:44

        ... are you going through a mental framework like that when you're, like, needing to stay in the moment yourself?

11. 6:49 – 7:53

    Staying present by remembering your role in their life (servant mindset)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher6:49

       I wish I could tell you I, I do, but I don't. I mean, because life happens.

    2. SPSpeaker6:54

       Yeah.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher6:55

       It's, it's more of this, um, kind of state of mind that I try to remember what's my purpose in their life-

    4. SPSpeaker7:06

       Mm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher7:07

       ... not, not what's their purpose in mine. It's, uh, because if I think of what's, what's their role in my life, I don't... It's easy to just not really care about their problems.

    6. SPSpeaker7:19

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher7:19

       I'm, I'm focused on what Jefferson's doing.

    8. SPSpeaker7:21

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher7:22

       Um, but if I reverse it and I say, "What's my role in their life?" Then I'm able to kind of step outside of myself and understand they had a beginning and they'll have an end, and I have a very small part to play in the right now.

    10. SPSpeaker7:42

        Mm.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher7:42

        That, that's where my mind goes.

    12. SPSpeaker7:44

        I love that. It's almost like a spiritual approach to it a bit.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

        Yeah. Oh, heavy.

    14. SPSpeaker7:48

        That's, that's what I'm hearing.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher7:49

        Yeah, heavy.

    16. SPSpeaker7:50

        Yeah. Servant mindset.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher7:51

        Mm-hmm.

12. 7:53 – 10:02

    Staying true to your values under attack: lessons from his dad

    1. SPSpeaker7:53

       Um, you talk about your values being your compass, which kind of, if you talk about spirituality and how you serve them-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher8:01

       Yeah

    3. SPSpeaker8:01

       ... uh, when somebody comes at you, I'm sure you've had some people come at you [laughs] probably with some choice words in there.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher8:08

       For sure.

    5. SPSpeaker8:09

       Um, how do you make sure, regardless of how somebody's communicating at me, I will stay true to myself and be proud of how I communicate and how I represent myself?

    6. JFJefferson Fisher8:22

       I had, a, a really great role model. Still do. Uh, my dad. I, I mean, I grew up in courthouses.

    7. SPSpeaker8:30

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher8:31

       And so I saw a lot and heard a lot. And my dad was the type that just not much would ruffle his feathers.

    9. SPSpeaker8:40

       Hmm.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher8:42

        And I mean, he's the type that, you know, I'd be in the passenger seat, we'd be going somewhere, Dad's driving and in the side mirror I can see somebody's riding our tail. What does that do to me? I'm, I, I kind of have this anxiety of like, "All right, Dad, we gotta... You need to go faster," or like, "Mo- you gotta do something." And, uh, it's usually like, "Hey, Dad, I think you need to, like, speed up. They're on us." He's like, "Oh yeah, I see 'em." And he just keeps driving. And so when it's safe, we'll hit... I mean, it never failed. He would just kind of merge over into the shoulder and do his hand, and he'd always say, "Go on with your bad self." Every time. He's like, "Go on, go on with your bad self," while he's driving. And that's the mentality that I, I really saw a lot of. And I, when I would get heated about something with, usually with my mom, my dad would be like... [laughs] My, my dad would always, um, have this kind of mentality of, "Well, what do you think she's thinking when you do that?"

    11. SPSpeaker9:54

        Mm.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher9:54

        Like, ah, don't make me think about that. That's not what... I, I wanna think about what I'm upset about. And so he was always making me think about the other stuff.

    13. SPSpeaker10:02

        Mm.

13. 10:02 – 11:22

    Don’t carry others’ words for free: choosing what you hold onto

    1. JFJefferson Fisher10:02

       He'd say, "Don't, don't make that your Alamo," if anybody knows Texas history. He's, he'd say, "Don't make that your Alamo. What's, what's... Yeah, they're gonna be upset about it and you're gonna... What are you gonna do?" So what, what's helped me is when somebody has choice words for me, I get to choose in that moment, do I want to be the one carrying those forever, or do I want them to be carrying it? Somebody's gonna carry it. But those words aren't gonna go nowhere.

    2. SPSpeaker10:31

       Mm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher10:33

       So I could either be the one who remembers what so-and-so said 10 years ago, something they probably don't even remember, or do I wanna be the person who doesn't remember what so-and-so said, but they do-

    4. SPSpeaker10:52

       Mm-hmm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher10:52

       ... and they still feel bad about it all these 10 years later.

    6. SPSpeaker10:56

       Mm.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher10:56

       Yeah, I'd much rather be where I'm not carrying somebody's words for free.

    8. SPSpeaker11:02

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher11:03

       I think that's what happens a, a lot, is we, we choose to remember things far longer than they need to be. But if I just have this mentality of, "Ah, I don't have to pick those up."

    10. SPSpeaker11:16

        Y- your dad trained you from a young age by example.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher11:20

        For sure, yes.

    12. SPSpeaker11:20

        Number one.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher11:21

        Yeah.

14. 11:22 – 13:07

    Think five moves ahead: the Socratic method for conflict-proofing your words

    1. SPSpeaker11:22

       Great lesson as a parent as well. Um, but he said, "What, what are they thinking?" So he made you walk in their shoes, whether it was your mom or I'm sure somebody else.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher11:32

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker11:32

       That's a great life lesson right there. Just-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher11:34

       He'd always make me play it out.

    5. SPSpeaker11:35

       Yeah.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher11:36

       He'd say, "Okay, you say this-"

    7. SPSpeaker11:37

       So he'd unpack it?

    8. JFJefferson Fisher11:37

       Yeah.

    9. SPSpeaker11:37

       Like, so you'd-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher11:38

        Uh-huh

    11. SPSpeaker11:38

        ... you'd say, "Here's what I think she's thinking." Then he'd, like, almost depose you a little bit? Or-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher11:42

        Yeah. Oh, it was all, uh-

    13. SPSpeaker11:43

        Mm

    14. JFJefferson Fisher11:43

        ... what they call Socratic method-

    15. SPSpeaker11:45

        Mm

    16. JFJefferson Fisher11:45

        ... in law school. So you teach by asking questions.

    17. SPSpeaker11:48

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher11:49

        Same way they talk about, like, cases and stuff-

    19. SPSpeaker11:51

        Mm-hmm

    20. JFJefferson Fisher11:51

        ... in, in law school. So he'd talk about historic cases, and then the professor calls you up, stands you up, and asks you questions, and uses those questions that you answer, 'cause you have to do your reading, to teach the class.

    21. SPSpeaker12:02

        Mm.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher12:03

        And so that's, that's kind of how that was done to me. So he'd say, "Okay, what did you say? What did she say? All right. When you said that, how do you think she felt? And because she felt that way, what do you think she's gonna wanna do next?" And so he would play out five, 10 steps after the conversation would happen. And then he would always be like, "You sure you really wanna go say that?" You know, you'd be like, "Nah, I don't really." "Okay, that's what I thought." I, I'm just realizing it's, it's really not typically worth it.

    23. SPSpeaker12:34

        Yeah.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher12:34

        You know, it wasn't, it wasn't worth that, that, um, that, that, that moment that you thought you needed to get that hit of dopamine, 'cause you knew if you said that it was just gonna land so good.

    25. SPSpeaker12:45

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher12:45

        Just realized really on, oh, that's a really pretty hollow feeling.

    27. SPSpeaker12:52

        My 15-year-old doesn't know what's about to hit him when I get home. Jefferson-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher12:55

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. SPSpeaker12:55

        ... this is gonna be fun. [laughs]

    30. JFJefferson Fisher12:56

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Episode duration: 13:07