This is The ONE THING That Gives You The Power To Control The Conversation

Speaker 0:00 You have these, um, powerful life lessons, okay, in the book for our communication. I wanna go through some of them. Now, some of them you've, you kinda touched on already, but I, I'd love to go through some of these bit by bit to really give practical take-homes for people.

Jefferson Fisher 0:19 Yeah.

Speaker 0:19 Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

Jefferson Fisher 0:23 Right.

Speaker 0:24 Why?

Jefferson Fisher 0:26 It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, its silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It,

Jefferson Fisher 0:56 it, the first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's

Jefferson Fisher 1:26 wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations, you use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep, and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

Speaker 1:41 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:42 And in that silence, holding that with, the, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

Speaker 1:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:54 Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Now, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

Speaker 2:14 Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

Jefferson Fisher 2:18 You can weaponize it.

Speaker 2:19 Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 2:19 Yeah, so you could... Uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

Speaker 2:23 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 2:23 ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to... I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox- toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and, as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you please come back to me?" will they, you know-

Speaker 2:53 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 2:53 ... graciously in their mercy go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

Speaker 3:03 Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 3:12 Mm-hmm

Speaker 3:12 ... before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

Jefferson Fisher 3:15 Right

Speaker 3:15 ... you're saying t- that first word is your breath.

Jefferson Fisher 3:18 Right.

Speaker 3:18 Okay? So your, what, is that an inhale?

Jefferson Fisher 3:21 Yeah, so it's, um, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

Speaker 3:26 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 3:26 ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, m- what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

Speaker 3:42 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 3:42 ... [laughs] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently, any time right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you're, it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You, our bodies go [inhales] like we, we, everything we don't like it, we kind of start to-

Speaker 4:06 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 4:06 ... seize up. We start, we take a big breath. We're like, "Oh, okay, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.

Speaker 4:16 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:16 And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

Speaker 4:22 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 4:22 Often it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can... You're like, "Let me turn down this music so I can see." It's kind of that same mentality-

Speaker 4:39 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 4:39 ... of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

Speaker 4:41 Yeah, it's, it's this whole we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like, and if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable-

Jefferson Fisher 4:53 Yes

Speaker 4:53 ... right? You're changing the state of your nervous system, so everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight.

Jefferson Fisher 5:01 Right.

Speaker 5:01 So of course the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy.

Jefferson Fisher 5:07 You got it.

Speaker 5:07 So I love that sort of idea that you make it... And y- you know, that whole section that, in, in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation, where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

Jefferson Fisher 5:23 Yeah, abs- and I'm happy to do it right now if you wanna-

Speaker 5:26 Okay, all right. Okay

Jefferson Fisher 5:26 ... look at it. So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really gonna know that you're doing it. It's, there's nothing special. It's just the ch- it's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhale, meaning we're gonna inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're gonna go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

Speaker 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:57 You're gonna feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to. When somebody's saying something you don't like, or, uh, you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath, and I'm gonna continue to say some things to you. So Rangan, I, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be... These lights. Have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, now, see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so any time somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause, rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

Speaker 6:45 Yeah, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again-

Jefferson Fisher 6:51 Yeah

Speaker 6:52 ... um, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going by quickly.

Jefferson Fisher 7:01 Yeah.

Speaker 7:01 If you slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number, I saw that number. You know, that's what's going. There's a cat coming. Whatever it might be, right?

Jefferson Fisher 7:10 Right.

Speaker 7:10 So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 7:18 Yes

Speaker 7:18 ... especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to-

Jefferson Fisher 7:22 Right

Speaker 7:22 ... if you're able to slow things down-

Jefferson Fisher 7:25 Yes

Speaker 7:26 ... you're gonna be more present. You're gonna, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.

Jefferson Fisher 7:36 Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments in conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe. The next day, you know what?

Speaker 7:50 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 7:50 That conversation really didn't matter all that much.

Speaker 7:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:52 Or a week goes by and you go, "Why did I ever react that way?"

Speaker 7:56 But in the moment, you felt that it did.

Jefferson Fisher 7:57 At, in the moment, it was everything. And then, or you get that email, you re- read that email at work, and you wanna... It gets you all worked up and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens and you go, "You, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down." You read it again the next day. You go, "That's not even worth my response."

Speaker 8:16 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 8:16 Yeah.

Speaker 8:17 That, that's the power of silence-

Jefferson Fisher 8:18 Absolutely

Speaker 8:18 ... and pause, right?

Jefferson Fisher 8:19 Yes.

Speaker 8:20 It's kind of interesting. You are teaching people how to have better conversations, but at the same time, I would imagine, and I think you've hinted at this already, that you've always been pretty good at communicating.

Jefferson Fisher 8:34 Yes.

Speaker 8:35 Yeah. Okay. I would probably say a similar thing about myself. I think as a doctor, I feel that's always been one of my strengths with my patients, my ability to really listen, pay attention, and then communicate effectively with them. I don't think I was taught how to do that.

Jefferson Fisher 8:52 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 8:53 Maybe I picked it up from the people around me. But although I feel I was intuitively quite a good communicator, I feel I've got better over the years, okay? So I feel it's a skill that although I was pretty good at, I think I've got better at it.

Jefferson Fisher 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 9:10 Now, what has helped me get better at it? I think if I think about my marriage, you know, I'm, as we're having this conversation, I'm almost... It's almost 18 years since I was married. Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 9:23 Congratulations.

Speaker 9:23 Since I got married.

Jefferson Fisher 9:24 Yeah.

Speaker 9:25 Yeah, and you know, our marriage is fantastic, and I think one of the things that has made it more fantastic now than maybe in the early days is collectively, our ability to communicate as a couple has got better.

Jefferson Fisher 9:40 Hmm.

Speaker 9:40 And certainly on a personal level, I feel I've really, um, learnt some new skills about how to communicate better within my relationship. But I also believe that this podcast has helped me become a better communicator. Okay, so, um, as you know, this is a long form podcast, okay? It's long form intentionally. I'm not interested in quick, fancy sound bites. I want deep, meaningful conversations with people that I'm curious about.

Jefferson Fisher 10:10 Yeah.

Speaker 10:10 That's always been the name of the game on this show, and it continues to be today. And every summer I stop the podcast for six weeks. Okay? It's the children are on summer holidays. My wife is the producer of the podcast. And so for us, it's really important to have some time away from this show, even though the whole world is saying, "You can't stop, you need to keep going." That's a separate matter, right?

Jefferson Fisher 10:33 Yeah.

Speaker 10:33 But we take a break every summer. And every summer while I'm on break, I reflect on what can I improve? What can I do differently? How can I make the show even better? You know, how can I become a better communicator? And a few years ago, the insight I had over the summer break was to embrace silence more, right? So you talk in your book about how silence can be a superpower, and I would say maybe three or four summers ago, I came back and intentionally started to utilize silence much more, and I think that's enhanced the quality of the conversations. And so my thinking was very much, Rangan, you don't have to rush, right? There's, there's no time pressure here. You've got all the time in the world. In a natural conversation, because I never regard these as interviews, right?

Jefferson Fisher 11:28 Yeah.

Speaker 11:28 If you want an interview, I'm the wrong podcast, right?

Jefferson Fisher 11:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11:31 These are all about conversations. And I realized that, well, in real life conversation, there are sometimes pauses. Sometimes the next thing to say isn't there at the tip of your tongue. Sometimes you have to kind of pause and reflect and let what was just said land. You also have to trust yourself, right? You go, "Okay, I don't need to think about the next thing I'm gonna say. I can just pay attention to what Jefferson is saying." And then when he finishes, I need to trust- That the right thing to come next will come out of my mouth, right? So that's rather long-winded of me trying to say that when I [laughs] read you write about silence being a superpower, I thought, "I love that," because I feel that's one of the things that I've really embraced on this show, and I think it's one of the things that has really improved the quality of conversations on this show.

Jefferson Fisher 12:24 I think that's spot on. For, for your listeners, I w- I would ask two questions. Number one, have you ever really given thought to how you're communicating? H- how, how your voice is representing you? Not just how you sound, that's personal to you, but the words that you choose. More than likely, you've spent some amount of money on a better health. Maybe you've changed a diet. Maybe you've read some books. Maybe you've gone to some conference. W- whatever. We invest a lot in a lot of things. But have you ever actually invested in the thing you do every day, and that is getting disciplined about how you communicate? Actually asking yourself how do you communicate. That's question number one. Question number two is why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my, my son sometimes. I'm like, "All right, come on. Get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We gotta go." To what? A kid's birthday party that, uh, y- you don't have to be on time for? I mean, it's, it's not the end of the world. Why do we f- always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints.

Speaker 13:50 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 13:51 That has no rush, and you can say something, and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it. Land. Let their words sit and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone, and beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly ... If you wanna have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have,

Jefferson Fisher 14:22 slow it down. I promise you, you're gonna end up having a better outcome. There are simple, quick tools and different ways of regulating your nervous system. So let's put it in two different scenarios for the listeners. One, we can have a, a personal relationship with your, with your significant other. The other is a workplace where somebody-

Speaker 14:40 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 14:40 ... is asking you something of an important project. Whatever it is. It's gonna be the same outcome either way. So these tools that I provide in the first How to Say Things With Control ultimately are different ways of regulating your nervous system. First word being your breath. In either context, it allows you to, where somebody's accusing you of something, you're able to slowly use your breath and kinda understand, keeping yourself from getting emotionally flooded. It's nothing, nothing more simple than that. You're using your breath to feel a little bit more grounded in the conversation, just like we did a minute ago.

Speaker 15:12 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 15:12 Now, a quick scan of what is what I call a quick ... It's a quick scan. It's nothing than asking yourself, "What am I feeling in this moment?" And I like to use the phrase, "I can tell." So let's say you're in a conversation with your significant other. Maybe it's over the dishes, and all of a sudden it blends into the laundry and who does what, and you don't keep up your fair share, whatever it is. Instead of s- leading with you, and you never, and you always-

Speaker 15:39 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:39 ... which I promise you is only going to add another layer of c- of argument about whether you always or never do it.

Speaker 15:47 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:48 And then somebody's gonna say, "Well, give me an example. Name the last time that I ..." And then it's just a competition of who can r- has the better memory, and of course you have the better memory.

Speaker 15:57 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:57 I don't remember. [laughs] So instead, a quick scan is saying, "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." So many times we push conversation on our timeframe and not the other person's, and so if you're feeling pressured in a conversation, say, uh, instead of reacting and getting defensive and emoting on that, it's to be able to say, "I can, I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm feeling sad. I can tell that's making me, that's making me angry."

Speaker 16:28 So step one is you take that slow intentional breath-

Jefferson Fisher 16:31 Yeah

Speaker 16:31 ... which helps to calm things down-

Jefferson Fisher 16:33 Right

Speaker 16:33 ... and, and regulate your nervous system. Step two is this quick scan.

Jefferson Fisher 16:37 Right.

Speaker 16:38 That you're just going through your body. Uh, what, where, where's there tightness? What am I actually feeling?

Jefferson Fisher 16:43 Exactly.

Speaker 16:43 And then you use that scan to say, "I can tell I'm feeling something."

Jefferson Fisher 16:50 Yes.

Speaker 16:50 So that's a way of communicating with the other person. So for example, it might be, "I can tell that I'm feeling a bit wound up at the moment, so I don't think it's the best time to have this conversation."

Jefferson Fisher 17:00 I can tell I'm not feeling myself. I mean, that right there is a, a powerful tool in, in, in marital relationships. Instead of saying, "What's wrong with you?" Instead of forcing that, it's the, "I, I can tell I'm, I'm feeling off right now. I can, I can tell I'm tired."

Speaker 17:17 So okay. So if you just say that phrase, could your partner then not go, "Okay, but what's that got to do with what I just said?" Like, so I'm try- I'm trying to just play devil's advocate there.

Jefferson Fisher 17:27 Yeah. No, I love it.

Speaker 17:28 So you're, you're, you're using that to tell your partner or your work colleague or whoever it might be that you have a certain emotional state.

Jefferson Fisher 17:39 Yes.

Speaker 17:39 But then do you need to go the next step and then say, w- what is the implication of that emotional state?

Jefferson Fisher 17:45 Uh, so it depends. Maybe, maybe that is the goal of saying ... Let's say you just got done with a full busy day. You've done a bunch of podcasts, you're doing work, and you, uh, you got the kids in bed and you're finally at home, and all of a sudden your spouse wants to have the most important conversation ever right in that moment, and you're just, you're drained. You're tired. And instead of going, "You know what? Look, I don't really wanna talk about... Can you just..." And you're starting to react negatively in that conversation. You're starting to really just be negative on the whole moment. Instead saying, like, "I, I can tell I am, I am not ready for this conversation. If we, if we can, if we can talk about this in the morning, I'm gonna be a whole lot better for it," or, "If we can push this just a f- a few minutes." Or let's say it's in the work context and you can say, like, "I, I can tell that I'm feeling uncertain about this," or, "I can tell I still need a little bit more-

Speaker 18:31 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 18:31 ... clarity here." It's not, it's not saying, "I don't wanna have a conversation." And I'm not saying you need to have that every time you have a conversation. I- this is simply a tool of if you feel like you're having an emotion in that moment, when you claim it, you control it. And so whenever you can say it out loud, it's much better than behaving on that. So let's say you say something that gets me defensive, and I can tell. Rather than me going, "Me? N- No, no. What about you? Oh, you think that..." And I'm starting to react on that defensiveness. Rather than me saying... You say that same thing and I go, [inhales] "I can tell that's getting me defensive." That right there is a wonderful way of just, like, writing it down and putting it on a piece of paper. Now we know that that is not something I'm, I'm gonna be talking about. And, and in fact, it's at least more information for the people who's, who you're talking to. So it's not that, it, it's not a one, two, three. It's not you have to first where's your breath, then you have to do a quick scan, then you have to do a, a small talk. These are all different tools that if you're feeling something, overwhelmed in that moment, it's much better to say with your spouse, "I can tell I'm feeling overwhelmed"-

Speaker 19:37 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 19:38 ... than, than reacting on that overwhelmed feeling.

Speaker 19:41 Yeah. I, I love that. It's so powerful, and I would say that that alone is possibly one of the most influential things I've changed in my marriage in terms of the way I communicate with my wife.

Jefferson Fisher 19:56 Mm.

Speaker 19:56 Is it's really about self-awareness, isn't it? And the example you gave actually [laughs] was not an uncommon scenario in the sense that my wife and I have some, have quite different body clocks. I love to go to bed early and get up early. She would rather go to bed late and wake up a bit later, right? And so-

Jefferson Fisher 20:13 I'm team wife, so yeah.

Speaker 20:14 You're team wife, okay.

Jefferson Fisher 20:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 20:16 Okay. So it did not used to be uncommon that when I'm trying to wind down for bed-

Jefferson Fisher 20:24 Yeah

Speaker 20:24 ... that Vid wants to go through something deep or important.

Jefferson Fisher 20:27 Yes.

Speaker 20:27 Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 20:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 20:29 And so I would say one of the things that I've learnt to do is be able to now calmly, I hope and I think, say, "Hey, listen, I, I know this is super important. I'm so tired at the moment. I actually don't think we're gonna get a great outcome from this conversation right now." Or something to that effect.

Jefferson Fisher 20:45 Yes.

Speaker 20:46 And actually, it is, it is game-changing, that kind of stuff. Because if you-

Jefferson Fisher 20:50 Yeah

Speaker 20:50 ... don't say it-

Jefferson Fisher 20:52 Yes

Speaker 20:52 ... right? Or you get frustrated or not, you know, A, you can't expect the other person to mind read-

Jefferson Fisher 20:57 Exactly

Speaker 20:57 ... which I think is the biggest problem-

Jefferson Fisher 20:59 Yeah

Speaker 20:59 ... in relationships.

Jefferson Fisher 21:00 Yes.

Speaker 21:00 It's like, no, why don't I just tell you calmly, "Hey, can we fix a time tomorrow to go through this?"

Jefferson Fisher 21:05 Yes.

Speaker 21:05 "Because I, I can see that it's important," or whatever it might be.

Jefferson Fisher 21:08 Yes. No, you got it. Yeah. How many times, I mean, even in my own marriage, I'm like, I am, I am in bed closing my eyes and she will go, "So I was just thinking..." And I'm like, "Uh, what? Are we... Oh, you wanna talk about this now?"

Speaker 21:20 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 21:20 Like, I mean, you kinda have to. [laughs] And yeah, you, uh, what I like to teach is don't wait until you have 10% of yourself for 100% of a conversation. You each have a, a battery, and, and what happens a lot is we lead to negative consequences when we're each in the red. We're in low battery modes.

Speaker 21:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 21:40 So you're more agitated.

Speaker 21:41 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 21:42 You're hungry. You're tired. You don't feel good. You want... And so certain conversations, it's not like it's a simple, "Hey, uh, let's remember to buy more milk tomorrow." Like, we're not talking about that stuff. I'm talking, like, the real conversations that are outcome determinative of what's happening with the kids, the kids' schedule or... And she might be telling me something where I am fading into the night, and that's when she wants to lay out the, "We need to agree on every... where you're gonna be, this, who's gonna pick up who, and..." It's like, I'm not gonna remember this right in this moment, but sure, go ahead and say. So yeah. What's most important is, one, you don't dismiss it. You can't be dismissive of it.

Speaker 22:18 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 22:18 Because if you're like, "Can we just talk about this later?" That's gonna feel very dismissing. Because to them, to whoever you're talking to, it's on their mind. It-

Speaker 22:27 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 22:27 ... it doesn't mean that it's wrong. Uh, and sometimes they need to get it out so they can sleep. And so, and, and, and I've felt that that way before. But if you ask somebody to push a conversation because it's going to lead to a better outcome, they will always say yes. If you, if you say, "Is this something we have to agree on right now?" Most of the time, the answer is, is no. The, you will always push it. But if you tell them that you're gonna have a better conversation, better outcome if we postpone this 30 minutes, an hour to the next morning, they will say yes. They won't say no to it.

Speaker 23:00 Yeah, no, I love it.

Jefferson Fisher 23:01 If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there