This is The ONE THING That Gives You The Power To Control The Conversation

1. 0:00 – 0:56

   Silence as the one unassailable communication tool

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      You have these, um, powerful life lessons, okay, in the book for our communication. I wanna go through some of them. Now, some of them you've, you kinda touched on already, but I, I'd love to go through some of these bit by bit to really give practical take-homes for people.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:19

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker0:19

      Okay? Now, one of the lessons is that silence is power.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:23

      Right.

   5. SPSpeaker0:24

      Why?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:26

      It is the one thing that someone cannot throw back in your face. It, its silence can never be misquoted. Silence is not something that you can, somebody can create anything out of, so to speak. Silence gives you the power to choose. It gives you options. Is this somebody I wanna talk to? Is this something I want to respond to? Is this something that's worth my time? Is this person worth my time? It,

2. 0:56 – 1:26

   Using silence to set boundaries and de-escalate conflict

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:56

      it, the first thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing, is this person worth getting out of my chair for? It is silence that puts things on pause, because you can't make me say anything I don't want to say. I can physically grab you, and I can physically manipulate you, but I cannot do that with your words. I cannot force you to say something without forcing you physically. Silence is your tool that you can have, and it's

3. 1:26 – 1:54

   Silence as support: ‘holding space’ in meaningful conversations

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:26

      wonderful in the sense of you use it for difficult conversations, you use it for meaningful conversations. Let's say you're sharing something with me that's very deep, and you've had a very hard day. I don't need to s- fix it. I just need to sit with you.

   2. SPSpeaker1:41

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:42

      And in that silence, holding that with, the, the therapy world would say holding that space for you, just sitting in here with you. I don't have to say anything, but at the same time, I'm saying everything.

   4. SPSpeaker1:53

      Yeah.

4. 1:54 – 2:14

   Silence as a mirror: letting hurtful words echo back

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:54

      Now, let's say you're saying something mean to me, and you say something that really hurts, and rather than responding, I just say nothing. Now, that sends another message. That's another option that I get to have, and now you have to hear those words echo back, and you have to do something with it. That's why silence is such a powerful tool.

5. 2:14 – 3:03

   When silence becomes weaponized: stonewalling and punitive control

   1. SPSpeaker2:14

      Could it be deemed as being aggressive if we use silence?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:18

      You can weaponize it.

   3. SPSpeaker2:19

      Uh-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:19

      Yeah, so you could... Uh, that turns into stonewalling. That turns into people ghosting-

   5. SPSpeaker2:23

      Yeah

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:23

      ... for no reason. Yeah, uh, stonewalling, in my opinion, is weaponized silence. You are doing it as a, as a punishment. It's punitive. It's a sense of control. If you try to... I'm not talking about the gray rock type of stuff where it's you have to protect yourself. I'm talking you're some- you're dealing with somebody who's a tox- toxic personality, and they just go silent on you and, as a term of punishment. They want you to come groveling back. Not until you say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Can you please come back to me?" will they, you know-

   7. SPSpeaker2:53

      Mm-hmm

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:53

      ... graciously in their mercy go, "Yes, I guess you can talk to me again." So there is absolutely a way to be taking it too far, as with anything.

6. 3:03 – 3:42

   The ‘first word is your breath’: introducing the physiological sigh

   1. SPSpeaker3:03

      Yeah. It kind of sort of relates back to a couple of things we've already touched on. One was when you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:12

      Mm-hmm

   3. SPSpeaker3:12

      ... before you start reacting and just blurting out words-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:15

      Right

   5. SPSpeaker3:15

      ... you're saying t- that first word is your breath.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:18

      Right.

   7. SPSpeaker3:18

      Okay? So your, what, is that an inhale?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:21

      Yeah, so it's, um, you would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation, where-

   9. SPSpeaker3:26

      Yeah

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:26

       ... it's about three seconds in through your nose, two seconds in again at the top, and then all out through your nose again. Now, y- we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not, not talking about the sigh of, like, m- what my five-year-old would do of, like, "Ugh." Like, not, not that type of-

7. 3:42 – 5:23

   Why breath changes the conversation: nervous system and listening

   1. SPSpeaker3:42

      Yeah

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:42

      ... [laughs] not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it, and you can do it silently, any time right before you say something that you need to catch a moment or if somebody's saying something that's, you can tell you're, it's, you don't like, and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like, and what happens? You, our bodies go [inhales] like we, we, everything we don't like it, we kind of start to-

   3. SPSpeaker4:06

      Yeah

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:06

      ... seize up. We start, we take a big breath. We're like, "Oh, okay, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't, I gotta, I gotta get ready," 'cause why? We're about ready to unleash all of our, our words.

   5. SPSpeaker4:16

      Mm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:16

      And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell.

   7. SPSpeaker4:22

      Yeah.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:22

      Often it, it decreases communication. It's the same way of, you know how, uh, at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can... You're like, "Let me turn down this music so I can see." It's kind of that same mentality-

   9. SPSpeaker4:39

      Yeah

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:39

       ... of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.

   11. SPSpeaker4:41

       Yeah, it's, it's this whole we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? That person said that thing that you didn't like, and if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:53

       Yes

   13. SPSpeaker4:53

       ... right? You're changing the state of your nervous system, so everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher5:01

       Right.

   15. SPSpeaker5:01

       So of course the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher5:07

       You got it.

   17. SPSpeaker5:07

       So I love that sort of idea that you make it... And y- you know, that whole section that, in, in that chapter, you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation, where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.

8. 5:23 – 6:45

   Guided practice: the ‘conversational breath’ under provocation

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:23

      Yeah, abs- and I'm happy to do it right now if you wanna-

   2. SPSpeaker5:26

      Okay, all right. Okay

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:26

      ... look at it. So if you're listening right now, let's, let's, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath, and it's a breath that you can use, and nobody's really gonna know that you're doing it. It's, there's nothing special. It's just the ch- it's the choice to be intentional with your breath, and let's do it together. So it's all gonna be through your nose, and it's gonna be a double inhale, meaning we're gonna inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're gonna go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now, just listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit.

   4. SPSpeaker5:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:57

      You're gonna feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go-to. When somebody's saying something you don't like, or, uh, you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Rangan, to continue to do the conversational breath, and I'm gonna continue to say some things to you. So Rangan, I, yes, I understand you have a podcast, and yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be... These lights. Have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these, these microphones. Now, see, as you're talking to me right now, now, see, I don't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so any time somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth, right? It's allowing you to see the cause, rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.

9. 6:45 – 12:24

   Slowing time to gain clarity: perspective, pause, and later regret

   1. SPSpeaker6:45

      Yeah, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're, you're slowing everything down, right? So, you know, using that analogy of being in the car again-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:51

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker6:52

      ... um, if your car is going fast down the street, you're not gonna be able to take everything in, right? Because everything's going by quickly.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher7:01

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker7:01

      If you slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number, I saw that number. You know, that's what's going. There's a cat coming. Whatever it might be, right?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher7:10

      Right.

   7. SPSpeaker7:10

      So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher7:18

      Yes

   9. SPSpeaker7:18

      ... especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to-

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:22

       Right

   11. SPSpeaker7:22

       ... if you're able to slow things down-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher7:25

       Yes

   13. SPSpeaker7:26

       ... you're gonna be more present. You're gonna, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher7:36

       Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments in conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe. The next day, you know what?

   15. SPSpeaker7:50

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher7:50

       That conversation really didn't matter all that much.

   17. SPSpeaker7:51

       Yeah.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher7:52

       Or a week goes by and you go, "Why did I ever react that way?"

   19. SPSpeaker7:56

       But in the moment, you felt that it did.

   20. JFJefferson Fisher7:57

       At, in the moment, it was everything. And then, or you get that email, you re- read that email at work, and you wanna... It gets you all worked up and you're ready to send that, that nasty response back. But something happens and you go, "You, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this down." You read it again the next day. You go, "That's not even worth my response."

   21. SPSpeaker8:16

       Exactly.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher8:16

       Yeah.

   23. SPSpeaker8:17

       That, that's the power of silence-

   24. JFJefferson Fisher8:18

       Absolutely

   25. SPSpeaker8:18

       ... and pause, right?

   26. JFJefferson Fisher8:19

       Yes.

   27. SPSpeaker8:20

       It's kind of interesting. You are teaching people how to have better conversations, but at the same time, I would imagine, and I think you've hinted at this already, that you've always been pretty good at communicating.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher8:34

       Yes.

   29. SPSpeaker8:35

       Yeah. Okay. I would probably say a similar thing about myself. I think as a doctor, I feel that's always been one of my strengths with my patients, my ability to really listen, pay attention, and then communicate effectively with them. I don't think I was taught how to do that.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher8:52

       Mm-hmm.
10. 12:24 – 14:22

    Investing in communication and dropping the rush mindset

    1. JFJefferson Fisher12:24

       I think that's spot on. For, for your listeners, I w- I would ask two questions. Number one, have you ever really given thought to how you're communicating? H- how, how your voice is representing you? Not just how you sound, that's personal to you, but the words that you choose. More than likely, you've spent some amount of money on a better health. Maybe you've changed a diet. Maybe you've read some books. Maybe you've gone to some conference. W- whatever. We invest a lot in a lot of things. But have you ever actually invested in the thing you do every day, and that is getting disciplined about how you communicate? Actually asking yourself how do you communicate. That's question number one. Question number two is why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my, my son sometimes. I'm like, "All right, come on. Get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We gotta go." To what? A kid's birthday party that, uh, y- you don't have to be on time for? I mean, it's, it's not the end of the world. Why do we f- always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints.

    2. SPSpeaker13:50

       Yeah.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher13:51

       That has no rush, and you can say something, and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it. Land. Let their words sit and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone, and beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly ... If you wanna have better conversation, you slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation, if you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have,

11. 14:22 – 17:17

    A simple regulation sequence: breath + ‘quick scan’ + ‘I can tell…’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher14:22

       slow it down. I promise you, you're gonna end up having a better outcome. There are simple, quick tools and different ways of regulating your nervous system. So let's put it in two different scenarios for the listeners. One, we can have a, a personal relationship with your, with your significant other. The other is a workplace where somebody-

    2. SPSpeaker14:40

       Okay

    3. JFJefferson Fisher14:40

       ... is asking you something of an important project. Whatever it is. It's gonna be the same outcome either way. So these tools that I provide in the first How to Say Things With Control ultimately are different ways of regulating your nervous system. First word being your breath. In either context, it allows you to, where somebody's accusing you of something, you're able to slowly use your breath and kinda understand, keeping yourself from getting emotionally flooded. It's nothing, nothing more simple than that. You're using your breath to feel a little bit more grounded in the conversation, just like we did a minute ago.

    4. SPSpeaker15:12

       Mm.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher15:12

       Now, a quick scan of what is what I call a quick ... It's a quick scan. It's nothing than asking yourself, "What am I feeling in this moment?" And I like to use the phrase, "I can tell." So let's say you're in a conversation with your significant other. Maybe it's over the dishes, and all of a sudden it blends into the laundry and who does what, and you don't keep up your fair share, whatever it is. Instead of s- leading with you, and you never, and you always-

    6. SPSpeaker15:39

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher15:39

       ... which I promise you is only going to add another layer of c- of argument about whether you always or never do it.

    8. SPSpeaker15:47

       [laughs]

    9. JFJefferson Fisher15:48

       And then somebody's gonna say, "Well, give me an example. Name the last time that I ..." And then it's just a competition of who can r- has the better memory, and of course you have the better memory.

    10. SPSpeaker15:57

        [laughs]

    11. JFJefferson Fisher15:57

        I don't remember. [laughs] So instead, a quick scan is saying, "I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation." So many times we push conversation on our timeframe and not the other person's, and so if you're feeling pressured in a conversation, say, uh, instead of reacting and getting defensive and emoting on that, it's to be able to say, "I can, I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm feeling sad. I can tell that's making me, that's making me angry."

    12. SPSpeaker16:28

        So step one is you take that slow intentional breath-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher16:31

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker16:31

        ... which helps to calm things down-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher16:33

        Right

    16. SPSpeaker16:33

        ... and, and regulate your nervous system. Step two is this quick scan.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher16:37

        Right.

    18. SPSpeaker16:38

        That you're just going through your body. Uh, what, where, where's there tightness? What am I actually feeling?

    19. JFJefferson Fisher16:43

        Exactly.

    20. SPSpeaker16:43

        And then you use that scan to say, "I can tell I'm feeling something."

    21. JFJefferson Fisher16:50

        Yes.

    22. SPSpeaker16:50

        So that's a way of communicating with the other person. So for example, it might be, "I can tell that I'm feeling a bit wound up at the moment, so I don't think it's the best time to have this conversation."

    23. JFJefferson Fisher17:00

        I can tell I'm not feeling myself. I mean, that right there is a, a powerful tool in, in, in marital relationships. Instead of saying, "What's wrong with you?" Instead of forcing that, it's the, "I, I can tell I'm, I'm feeling off right now. I can, I can tell I'm tired."

12. 17:17 – 19:41

    Applying ‘I can tell…’ at home and at work (and handling pushback)

    1. SPSpeaker17:17

       So okay. So if you just say that phrase, could your partner then not go, "Okay, but what's that got to do with what I just said?" Like, so I'm try- I'm trying to just play devil's advocate there.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher17:27

       Yeah. No, I love it.

    3. SPSpeaker17:28

       So you're, you're, you're using that to tell your partner or your work colleague or whoever it might be that you have a certain emotional state.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher17:39

       Yes.

    5. SPSpeaker17:39

       But then do you need to go the next step and then say, w- what is the implication of that emotional state?

    6. JFJefferson Fisher17:45

       Uh, so it depends. Maybe, maybe that is the goal of saying ... Let's say you just got done with a full busy day. You've done a bunch of podcasts, you're doing work, and you, uh, you got the kids in bed and you're finally at home, and all of a sudden your spouse wants to have the most important conversation ever right in that moment, and you're just, you're drained. You're tired. And instead of going, "You know what? Look, I don't really wanna talk about... Can you just..." And you're starting to react negatively in that conversation. You're starting to really just be negative on the whole moment. Instead saying, like, "I, I can tell I am, I am not ready for this conversation. If we, if we can, if we can talk about this in the morning, I'm gonna be a whole lot better for it," or, "If we can push this just a f- a few minutes." Or let's say it's in the work context and you can say, like, "I, I can tell that I'm feeling uncertain about this," or, "I can tell I still need a little bit more-

    7. SPSpeaker18:31

       Mm

    8. JFJefferson Fisher18:31

       ... clarity here." It's not, it's not saying, "I don't wanna have a conversation." And I'm not saying you need to have that every time you have a conversation. I- this is simply a tool of if you feel like you're having an emotion in that moment, when you claim it, you control it. And so whenever you can say it out loud, it's much better than behaving on that. So let's say you say something that gets me defensive, and I can tell. Rather than me going, "Me? N- No, no. What about you? Oh, you think that..." And I'm starting to react on that defensiveness. Rather than me saying... You say that same thing and I go, [inhales] "I can tell that's getting me defensive." That right there is a wonderful way of just, like, writing it down and putting it on a piece of paper. Now we know that that is not something I'm, I'm gonna be talking about. And, and in fact, it's at least more information for the people who's, who you're talking to. So it's not that, it, it's not a one, two, three. It's not you have to first where's your breath, then you have to do a quick scan, then you have to do a, a small talk. These are all different tools that if you're feeling something, overwhelmed in that moment, it's much better to say with your spouse, "I can tell I'm feeling overwhelmed"-

    9. SPSpeaker19:37

       Yeah

    10. JFJefferson Fisher19:38

        ... than, than reacting on that overwhelmed feeling.

13. 19:41 – 23:10

    Relationship timing and ‘battery levels’: don’t do 100% talks on 10% energy

    1. SPSpeaker19:41

       Yeah. I, I love that. It's so powerful, and I would say that that alone is possibly one of the most influential things I've changed in my marriage in terms of the way I communicate with my wife.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher19:56

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker19:56

       Is it's really about self-awareness, isn't it? And the example you gave actually [laughs] was not an uncommon scenario in the sense that my wife and I have some, have quite different body clocks. I love to go to bed early and get up early. She would rather go to bed late and wake up a bit later, right? And so-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher20:13

       I'm team wife, so yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker20:14

       You're team wife, okay.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher20:15

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker20:16

       Okay. So it did not used to be uncommon that when I'm trying to wind down for bed-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher20:24

       Yeah

    9. SPSpeaker20:24

       ... that Vid wants to go through something deep or important.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher20:27

        Yes.

    11. SPSpeaker20:27

        Okay?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher20:28

        Yeah. [laughs]

    13. SPSpeaker20:29

        And so I would say one of the things that I've learnt to do is be able to now calmly, I hope and I think, say, "Hey, listen, I, I know this is super important. I'm so tired at the moment. I actually don't think we're gonna get a great outcome from this conversation right now." Or something to that effect.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher20:45

        Yes.

    15. SPSpeaker20:46

        And actually, it is, it is game-changing, that kind of stuff. Because if you-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher20:50

        Yeah

    17. SPSpeaker20:50

        ... don't say it-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher20:52

        Yes

    19. SPSpeaker20:52

        ... right? Or you get frustrated or not, you know, A, you can't expect the other person to mind read-

    20. JFJefferson Fisher20:57

        Exactly

    21. SPSpeaker20:57

        ... which I think is the biggest problem-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher20:59

        Yeah

    23. SPSpeaker20:59

        ... in relationships.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher21:00

        Yes.

    25. SPSpeaker21:00

        It's like, no, why don't I just tell you calmly, "Hey, can we fix a time tomorrow to go through this?"

    26. JFJefferson Fisher21:05

        Yes.

    27. SPSpeaker21:05

        "Because I, I can see that it's important," or whatever it might be.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher21:08

        Yes. No, you got it. Yeah. How many times, I mean, even in my own marriage, I'm like, I am, I am in bed closing my eyes and she will go, "So I was just thinking..." And I'm like, "Uh, what? Are we... Oh, you wanna talk about this now?"

    29. SPSpeaker21:20

        [laughs]

    30. JFJefferson Fisher21:20

        Like, I mean, you kinda have to. [laughs] And yeah, you, uh, what I like to teach is don't wait until you have 10% of yourself for 100% of a conversation. You each have a, a battery, and, and what happens a lot is we lead to negative consequences when we're each in the red. We're in low battery modes.

Episode duration: 23:10