What is Gaslighting and How Should You Deal With It?

1. 0:00 – 0:20

   Why “gaslighting” is everywhere—and what the question is really asking

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Gaslighting-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:01

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker0:02

      ... is a term that I now see all over the place.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:05

      Right.

   5. SPSpeaker0:06

      And it is overused and misused, but it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting, and then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us?

2. 0:20 – 0:50

   Defining gaslighting: rewriting your reality to gain control

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:20

      Mm. Gaslighting to me is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of, of statements of what you know, uh, making you feel like you've lost your mind. These are people who will instantly go to, "You're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. You know, everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. I, I... You know, I'm the only one that's actually trying to

3. 0:50 – 1:35

   The anchor phrases: “I see/remember things differently”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:50

      be your friend here in this place and try and triangulate things." It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling, to say, "I'm the only one you can trust to tell you the truth. In the face of all kinds of other lies, I'm the only one that can tell you the, the truth." Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gaslighter? What I like to use, what I would recommend is you use the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, "I, I remember things differently." So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one-

   2. SPSpeaker1:35

      Okay

4. 1:35 – 2:05

   Step 1—Stand your ground: don’t chase the lie

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:35

      ... stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat and a laser pointer. You ever seen, like, a laser pointer and the cats chase it everywhere? It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control, and they're wanting you to do it. Or it's they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole. It's like, "This is my lie," and you're going, "That's not true," and you start filling it. Then they tell another lie, and they

5. 2:05 – 3:06

   Step 2—Stop digging: the past is their playground

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:05

      start f- filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie, 'cause that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or a argument with somebody who's gaslighting, you know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, "No, no, no, if you remember, you said this, I said this," and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits, yeah, fits them, and you know that's, that's not what's true. That's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel and to use the phrase, "I remember things differently." You repeat it as many times as you need to. "I remember, I remember things differently." Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't... You... They can't create another lie out of that. They can't create a, construct a narrative out of

6. 3:06 – 4:04

   Step 3—Watch the emotional discrepancy as the warning sign

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:06

      it. There's nothing they, that they can possibly do. And three, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it, it should be telling... I guess let's put three as observe the emotional discrepancy, meaning people who if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? 'Cause they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're gonna lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell. They're starting to scream. They're starting to go crazy. That in and of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away, "I remember things differently," and leave it there.

   2. SPSpeaker3:48

      Yes. Yes. Yeah. Y- you know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with, with these liars-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:53

      Yeah

   4. SPSpeaker3:53

      ... is the emotional discrepancy-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:55

      Yes

   6. SPSpeaker3:56

      ... that piece.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher3:56

      Right.

   8. SPSpeaker3:57

      Once they're challenged and you stand your ground-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher3:59

      Right

   10. SPSpeaker4:00

       ... that emotional bar just-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher4:03

       It's gone

   12. SPSpeaker4:03

       ... it's gone.

7. 4:04 – 5:25

   What “emotional discrepancy” looks like—and when it’s not manipulation

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:04

      Yeah. Yeah. What... And what it does is when you, when you hear... When we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level two. But all of a sudden, I take it up to a lo- a number 11, and I'm really loud, and I'm really getting after you, and I speak a whole lot faster, and then my body language, I'm looking mad. I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating. That is a huge jump if you can go from here to here. That discrepancy is telling you something, and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to, and it's... and it can be for good or for bad. So I can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me, me personally, that, let's say somebody... Let's, let's say I said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or f- issues with their mother or father, or it w- It's the same thing with, like, your spouse. You know their button. You know the one thing that will send them through the roof. That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger, but that discrepancy is very clear typically in the liars and manipulators because they want m- quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their, to their lie or else they know they're losing.

   2. SPSpeaker5:22

      Ah. Thank you.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:24

      Yeah.

8. 5:25 – 6:48

   Demonstration: changing minds with the ‘full glass’ metaphor

   1. SPSpeaker5:25

      Thank you. So Jefferson, what do we have here?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:28

      Yeah, so this is how I like to illustrate the right way and wrong way to try and change somebody's mind. So in communication, often you come across somebody and you just don't agree with them, and you think, "Why can't they just understand me?" Here's the point with this. We have two glasses of water. Two are full. One is gonna represent your mind, and one's gonna represent my mind, and let's just say this is just the pitcher of general knowledge, all right? Whatever this is. Here, whenever you wanna change somebody's mind, what I teach is you can't pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full So let's say we have an opinion on how we should run things. Let's say in relationships, an opinion on, on how we should run finances.

   3. SPSpeaker6:06

      Okay.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher6:06

      Opinion on how we should, um, parent the kids, or how we should discipline, or how we should run the house, whatever it is, in any context. Everybody has their own glass that's full of things. That's generally things of everything from their childhood for how they were raised, 'cause we come into things, into relationships, everything that we were taught. So how we were taught is the only right way to do things.

   5. SPSpeaker6:29

      That's right.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher6:30

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker6:30

      That's right.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher6:31

      So you can't pour, right here, new thoughts into a glass that's already full. Now, if I'm gonna take this glass and I'm going to say, "I want to change your mind on something," and if I start with, "Hey, you're so wrong. You don't understand. Why are you doing it this way? I don't get it. I don't understand," and it just what? It tumps over.

   9. SPSpeaker6:48

      Right.

9. 6:48 – 8:45

   The real tool is questions: empty their glass before you pour

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:48

      Yeah, because you're already full. If I want to change your mind, I have to start with questions, questions of getting them to pour all of their thoughts out before I can pour anything else in.

   2. SPSpeaker7:03

      I see.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher7:04

      So what goes wrong is we start to try and prove and prove and prove. The takeaway here is rather than having something to prove, I want you to have something to learn. So right here, I know this is gonna splash some water, but every time I ask a question, I want you to pour some water out. So let's say you and I are disagreeing about something. Rather than me trying to push and prove my point, I'm gonna ask the question, "Well, what, what led to that decision for you?" I pour out some water.

   4. SPSpeaker7:32

      Okay.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:33

      I pour out a good bit.

   6. SPSpeaker7:34

      Oh.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher7:34

      Yeah.

   8. SPSpeaker7:35

      That's my decision.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher7:36

      That's perfect right there.

   10. SPSpeaker7:36

       So that's what led to it.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher7:37

       There we go. Now, now I'm gonna say, "What else? What-- How did you, how did you come to that opinion? How long have you had that?"

   12. SPSpeaker7:43

       Ah, yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:43

       And then you're gonna pour-

   14. SPSpeaker7:44

       My whole life.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:44

       Yep.

   16. SPSpeaker7:44

       This is what I was taught.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:46

       Yeah.

   18. SPSpeaker7:46

       Okay.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

       And where did, where did they learn? Is this something that you've, you've grown up with, or do you feel like this is something that y- you feel like this is the only right way to do it?

   20. SPSpeaker7:54

       Yeah. Yeah, I was taught this was it. This is the only way to do it.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher7:57

       And see, you're gonna pour all your glass out. Now, perfect. Now, once you feel like you've been 100% heard and acknowledged, and something that I have now given you all the space to say what you need to say and tell me why, and I've actually been curious enough to have the patience enough to know why you believe what you know-

   22. SPSpeaker8:17

       Yes

   23. JFJefferson Fisher8:17

       ... now you're gonna be reciprocating to ask me what?

   24. SPSpeaker8:22

       What you know.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher8:23

       There we go. Yeah. And now-

   26. SPSpeaker8:24

       So why do you think this?

   27. JFJefferson Fisher8:25

       Exactly. And then I'm gonna have it, and I'm gonna have the glass.

   28. SPSpeaker8:28

       I see it.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher8:29

       Yeah.

   30. SPSpeaker8:29

       I, I see it. So that is the prerequisite-
10. 8:45 – 9:27

    Mindset shift: stop trying to prove—start trying to learn

    1. JFJefferson Fisher8:45

       Right. If there's one mindset that anybody can have to have better conversations, it's have-- instead of having something to prove, have something to learn. So whenever you are asking questions, instead of prove. Prove says, "Now you need to understand what I'm saying. Listen here, buddy. I don't know who-- I don't know if you know who you're talking to." That's having something to prove. Having something to learn says, "I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it that way."

    2. SPSpeaker9:11

       Yes.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher9:11

       When you're using those questions to get to the person behind the surface, that's where you're having real connection and real conversations.

    4. SPSpeaker9:18

       So now, Jefferson, we have talked about many things.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher9:22

       So many.

    6. SPSpeaker9:22

       Is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you would like to discuss?

11. 9:27 – 10:45

    Words shape life: communication, co-regulation, and health

    1. JFJefferson Fisher9:27

       Hmm. If I could give your listeners something that will quickly change how they have conversations, truly whatever life they wanna have, they just need to change better words.

    2. SPSpeaker9:40

       Yes.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher9:40

       It's the, the power of their next conversation really has the power to control everything, because what you say is who you are. Truly, that's, that's all what we will ever know to remember you by is what you said. So you can truly change your entire life simply by what you decide to say next.

    4. SPSpeaker10:00

       Yeah. And, and, and you think about also how that leads to our health-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher10:06

       Yeah

    6. SPSpeaker10:06

       ... our ability to impact the world. You know, you-- we talked a lot about, uh, co-regulation-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher10:12

       Mm-hmm

    8. SPSpeaker10:12

       ... in this conversation, and it seems like the key component to that co-regulation is, is being able to communicate with someone.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher10:20

       Right.

    10. SPSpeaker10:20

        You know, that's the key, and how co-regulation in that relationship leads to longer life, happier life, healthier life.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher10:28

        Yeah.

    12. SPSpeaker10:29

        And that stems from our ability to communicate.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher10:31

        And the people who surround you and how they communicate.

    14. SPSpeaker10:34

        Yes. Yes. So then here is the final question-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher10:38

        All right

    16. SPSpeaker10:38

        ... that everyone gets, and there's a lot of pressure now on your question-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher10:42

        Okay

    18. SPSpeaker10:42

        ... or your answer to this question.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher10:44

        Okay.

12. 10:45 – 13:33

    Most profound conversation: a grandfather’s perspective on what matters

    1. SPSpeaker10:45

       Okay. So the final question that everyone gets is, out of all of the conversations you have had in your lifetime, which stands as the most profound to you, and who was it with? What did you learn?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher11:04

       Hmm. I was about 15. I was in my parents' living room, and my grandfather was over. That's my mom's dad. Call him Papaw. And he was-- He's still with us. He's in a assisted living home right now. And he was the grandfather that came to every ball game. He would travel three hours to catch a ball game. And when he came on the weekends, I knew he was cooking breakfast. I'd always wake up to the smell of bacon, and he'd always get us donuts. Like, that was his thing. I'd just be so excited at the chance when he, when he got to come. And he always bought a paper because he loved crosswords. So I grew up usually sitting in his lap until I couldn't fit, then sitting beside him doing crosswords. And I'll never forget the time when I was asking him, you know, what's it like getting old, 'cause he was telling me, "Now I can't see as well." You know, he was trying to adjust things. He, he wasn't moving around as much. And he said, "You know, what matters the most is that you just wanna be around the people that you love." He said, "Nothing else... You find out that nothing else really matters." Now, you have to hear this in a voice of a guy who worked in a sawmill, in a refinery, and sounds as country as you can possibly think. And for him to say that to me, I've never forgotten it. He said, "You just wanna keep the people that you love close." And that hit me so hard in that moment, because it made everything-- It put everything in perspective, Paul. Now, you could travel the world, and you could see everything, but you really just want the people you love, and there's nothing like the sound of the voice of the people that you love and the people that you choose, and you find that you-- When we're in high school, we want all the friends. Then you realize the older you get, you want your friends really few, and most of all, you want them close. And that really helped put things in perspective for me at a early age of what really truly mattered, and all the rest is, is just talk.

13. 13:33 – 14:21

    Gratitude and send-off

    1. SPSpeaker13:33

       Y- y- you know, uh, I feel exactly the same way. I feel exactly the same way, you know? And I can see how much the people you love mean to you.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher13:46

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SPSpeaker13:47

       I can see it. I can see it in how you show up. I can see it in the work that you do, you know? And I think that's why so many of us stand behind you, you know, because you are a force for good, and I hope that you continue, you know, to, to do good and continue to change the world.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher14:05

       Thanks, Paul.

    5. SPSpeaker14:05

       We're, we're, we're so appreciative of, of you and the work you do. It's, it's incredible.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher14:09

       Thank you.

    7. SPSpeaker14:09

       It really is, and it's important work.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher14:11

       Thank you. It means a lot to me.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher14:12

       If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 14:22