What is Gaslighting and How Should You Deal With It?

Speaker 0:00 Gaslighting-

Jefferson Fisher 0:01 Yeah

Speaker 0:02 ... is a term that I now see all over the place.

Jefferson Fisher 0:05 Right.

Speaker 0:06 And it is overused and misused, but it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting, and then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us?

Jefferson Fisher 0:20 Mm. Gaslighting to me is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of, of statements of what you know, uh, making you feel like you've lost your mind. These are people who will instantly go to, "You're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. You know, everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. I, I... You know, I'm the only one that's actually trying to

Jefferson Fisher 0:50 be your friend here in this place and try and triangulate things." It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling, to say, "I'm the only one you can trust to tell you the truth. In the face of all kinds of other lies, I'm the only one that can tell you the, the truth." Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gaslighter? What I like to use, what I would recommend is you use the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, "I, I remember things differently." So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one-

Speaker 1:35 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 1:35 ... stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat and a laser pointer. You ever seen, like, a laser pointer and the cats chase it everywhere? It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control, and they're wanting you to do it. Or it's they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole. It's like, "This is my lie," and you're going, "That's not true," and you start filling it. Then they tell another lie, and they

Jefferson Fisher 2:05 start f- filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie, 'cause that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or a argument with somebody who's gaslighting, you know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, "No, no, no, if you remember, you said this, I said this," and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits, yeah, fits them, and you know that's, that's not what's true. That's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel and to use the phrase, "I remember things differently." You repeat it as many times as you need to. "I remember, I remember things differently." Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't... You... They can't create another lie out of that. They can't create a, construct a narrative out of

Jefferson Fisher 3:06 it. There's nothing they, that they can possibly do. And three, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it, it should be telling... I guess let's put three as observe the emotional discrepancy, meaning people who if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? 'Cause they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're gonna lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell. They're starting to scream. They're starting to go crazy. That in and of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away, "I remember things differently," and leave it there.

Speaker 3:48 Yes. Yes. Yeah. Y- you know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with, with these liars-

Jefferson Fisher 3:53 Yeah

Speaker 3:53 ... is the emotional discrepancy-

Jefferson Fisher 3:55 Yes

Speaker 3:56 ... that piece.

Jefferson Fisher 3:56 Right.

Speaker 3:57 Once they're challenged and you stand your ground-

Jefferson Fisher 3:59 Right

Speaker 4:00 ... that emotional bar just-

Jefferson Fisher 4:03 It's gone

Speaker 4:03 ... it's gone.

Jefferson Fisher 4:04 Yeah. Yeah. What... And what it does is when you, when you hear... When we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level two. But all of a sudden, I take it up to a lo- a number 11, and I'm really loud, and I'm really getting after you, and I speak a whole lot faster, and then my body language, I'm looking mad. I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating. That is a huge jump if you can go from here to here. That discrepancy is telling you something, and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to, and it's... and it can be for good or for bad. So I can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me, me personally, that, let's say somebody... Let's, let's say I said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or f- issues with their mother or father, or it w- It's the same thing with, like, your spouse. You know their button. You know the one thing that will send them through the roof. That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger, but that discrepancy is very clear typically in the liars and manipulators because they want m- quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their, to their lie or else they know they're losing.

Speaker 5:22 Ah. Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 5:24 Yeah.

Speaker 5:25 Thank you. So Jefferson, what do we have here?

Jefferson Fisher 5:28 Yeah, so this is how I like to illustrate the right way and wrong way to try and change somebody's mind. So in communication, often you come across somebody and you just don't agree with them, and you think, "Why can't they just understand me?" Here's the point with this. We have two glasses of water. Two are full. One is gonna represent your mind, and one's gonna represent my mind, and let's just say this is just the pitcher of general knowledge, all right? Whatever this is. Here, whenever you wanna change somebody's mind, what I teach is you can't pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full So let's say we have an opinion on how we should run things. Let's say in relationships, an opinion on, on how we should run finances.

Speaker 6:06 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 6:06 Opinion on how we should, um, parent the kids, or how we should discipline, or how we should run the house, whatever it is, in any context. Everybody has their own glass that's full of things. That's generally things of everything from their childhood for how they were raised, 'cause we come into things, into relationships, everything that we were taught. So how we were taught is the only right way to do things.

Speaker 6:29 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 6:30 Yeah.

Speaker 6:30 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 6:31 So you can't pour, right here, new thoughts into a glass that's already full. Now, if I'm gonna take this glass and I'm going to say, "I want to change your mind on something," and if I start with, "Hey, you're so wrong. You don't understand. Why are you doing it this way? I don't get it. I don't understand," and it just what? It tumps over.

Speaker 6:48 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 6:48 Yeah, because you're already full. If I want to change your mind, I have to start with questions, questions of getting them to pour all of their thoughts out before I can pour anything else in.

Speaker 7:03 I see.

Jefferson Fisher 7:04 So what goes wrong is we start to try and prove and prove and prove. The takeaway here is rather than having something to prove, I want you to have something to learn. So right here, I know this is gonna splash some water, but every time I ask a question, I want you to pour some water out. So let's say you and I are disagreeing about something. Rather than me trying to push and prove my point, I'm gonna ask the question, "Well, what, what led to that decision for you?" I pour out some water.

Speaker 7:32 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 7:33 I pour out a good bit.

Speaker 7:34 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 7:34 Yeah.

Speaker 7:35 That's my decision.

Jefferson Fisher 7:36 That's perfect right there.

Speaker 7:36 So that's what led to it.

Jefferson Fisher 7:37 There we go. Now, now I'm gonna say, "What else? What-- How did you, how did you come to that opinion? How long have you had that?"

Speaker 7:43 Ah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:43 And then you're gonna pour-

Speaker 7:44 My whole life.

Jefferson Fisher 7:44 Yep.

Speaker 7:44 This is what I was taught.

Jefferson Fisher 7:46 Yeah.

Speaker 7:46 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 7:47 And where did, where did they learn? Is this something that you've, you've grown up with, or do you feel like this is something that y- you feel like this is the only right way to do it?

Speaker 7:54 Yeah. Yeah, I was taught this was it. This is the only way to do it.

Jefferson Fisher 7:57 And see, you're gonna pour all your glass out. Now, perfect. Now, once you feel like you've been 100% heard and acknowledged, and something that I have now given you all the space to say what you need to say and tell me why, and I've actually been curious enough to have the patience enough to know why you believe what you know-

Speaker 8:17 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 8:17 ... now you're gonna be reciprocating to ask me what?

Speaker 8:22 What you know.

Jefferson Fisher 8:23 There we go. Yeah. And now-

Speaker 8:24 So why do you think this?

Jefferson Fisher 8:25 Exactly. And then I'm gonna have it, and I'm gonna have the glass.

Speaker 8:28 I see it.

Jefferson Fisher 8:29 Yeah.

Speaker 8:29 I, I see it. So that is the prerequisite-

Jefferson Fisher 8:32 Correct

Speaker 8:33 ... is that we have to feel as if-- Not we have to feel. We have to ensure that our partner has been heard.

Jefferson Fisher 8:40 Yes.

Speaker 8:40 And we have to ensure that our partner has in, in essence, emptied themselves of their thoughts.

Jefferson Fisher 8:45 Right. If there's one mindset that anybody can have to have better conversations, it's have-- instead of having something to prove, have something to learn. So whenever you are asking questions, instead of prove. Prove says, "Now you need to understand what I'm saying. Listen here, buddy. I don't know who-- I don't know if you know who you're talking to." That's having something to prove. Having something to learn says, "I wonder why they're saying that. I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it that way."

Speaker 9:11 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 9:11 When you're using those questions to get to the person behind the surface, that's where you're having real connection and real conversations.

Speaker 9:18 So now, Jefferson, we have talked about many things.

Jefferson Fisher 9:22 So many.

Speaker 9:22 Is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you would like to discuss?

Jefferson Fisher 9:27 Hmm. If I could give your listeners something that will quickly change how they have conversations, truly whatever life they wanna have, they just need to change better words.

Speaker 9:40 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 9:40 It's the, the power of their next conversation really has the power to control everything, because what you say is who you are. Truly, that's, that's all what we will ever know to remember you by is what you said. So you can truly change your entire life simply by what you decide to say next.

Speaker 10:00 Yeah. And, and, and you think about also how that leads to our health-

Jefferson Fisher 10:06 Yeah

Speaker 10:06 ... our ability to impact the world. You know, you-- we talked a lot about, uh, co-regulation-

Jefferson Fisher 10:12 Mm-hmm

Speaker 10:12 ... in this conversation, and it seems like the key component to that co-regulation is, is being able to communicate with someone.

Jefferson Fisher 10:20 Right.

Speaker 10:20 You know, that's the key, and how co-regulation in that relationship leads to longer life, happier life, healthier life.

Jefferson Fisher 10:28 Yeah.

Speaker 10:29 And that stems from our ability to communicate.

Jefferson Fisher 10:31 And the people who surround you and how they communicate.

Speaker 10:34 Yes. Yes. So then here is the final question-

Jefferson Fisher 10:38 All right

Speaker 10:38 ... that everyone gets, and there's a lot of pressure now on your question-

Jefferson Fisher 10:42 Okay

Speaker 10:42 ... or your answer to this question.

Jefferson Fisher 10:44 Okay.

Speaker 10:45 Okay. So the final question that everyone gets is, out of all of the conversations you have had in your lifetime, which stands as the most profound to you, and who was it with? What did you learn?

Jefferson Fisher 11:04 Hmm. I was about 15. I was in my parents' living room, and my grandfather was over. That's my mom's dad. Call him Papaw. And he was-- He's still with us. He's in a assisted living home right now. And he was the grandfather that came to every ball game. He would travel three hours to catch a ball game. And when he came on the weekends, I knew he was cooking breakfast. I'd always wake up to the smell of bacon, and he'd always get us donuts. Like, that was his thing. I'd just be so excited at the chance when he, when he got to come. And he always bought a paper because he loved crosswords. So I grew up usually sitting in his lap until I couldn't fit, then sitting beside him doing crosswords. And I'll never forget the time when I was asking him, you know, what's it like getting old, 'cause he was telling me, "Now I can't see as well." You know, he was trying to adjust things. He, he wasn't moving around as much. And he said, "You know, what matters the most is that you just wanna be around the people that you love." He said, "Nothing else... You find out that nothing else really matters." Now, you have to hear this in a voice of a guy who worked in a sawmill, in a refinery, and sounds as country as you can possibly think. And for him to say that to me, I've never forgotten it. He said, "You just wanna keep the people that you love close." And that hit me so hard in that moment, because it made everything-- It put everything in perspective, Paul. Now, you could travel the world, and you could see everything, but you really just want the people you love, and there's nothing like the sound of the voice of the people that you love and the people that you choose, and you find that you-- When we're in high school, we want all the friends. Then you realize the older you get, you want your friends really few, and most of all, you want them close. And that really helped put things in perspective for me at a early age of what really truly mattered, and all the rest is, is just talk.

Speaker 13:33 Y- y- you know, uh, I feel exactly the same way. I feel exactly the same way, you know? And I can see how much the people you love mean to you.

Jefferson Fisher 13:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 13:47 I can see it. I can see it in how you show up. I can see it in the work that you do, you know? And I think that's why so many of us stand behind you, you know, because you are a force for good, and I hope that you continue, you know, to, to do good and continue to change the world.

Jefferson Fisher 14:05 Thanks, Paul.

Speaker 14:05 We're, we're, we're so appreciative of, of you and the work you do. It's, it's incredible.

Jefferson Fisher 14:09 Thank you.

Speaker 14:09 It really is, and it's important work.

Jefferson Fisher 14:11 Thank you. It means a lot to me.

14:12 If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there