When You Are Dealing With A Narcissist, You MUST Understand THIS...

1. 0:00 – 1:38

   Narcissistic conversations are a rigged “praise or provoke” game

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      How do you deal with a narcissist?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:01

      How do you deal with a narcissist?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:03

      What I like to say is, number one, understand you're in a game, and it's a game I call praise or provoke, meaning anytime you're in a narcissist or in a conversation or an argument, you're playing a game, and it's a game that's rigged. Looks like, uh, I don't know if you've ever been, I don't know if they have them here, uh, like a carnival game.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:25

      Carnival game.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:25

      Yeah. Okay. Like, you, you... It looks like it's beatable. You can toss the ring over the bottle or, uh, hit the hoop, you know, shoot the, the basketball into the, the rim that's forever away. It looks like it's w- it's winnable, like you could beat it, but it's, it's rigged. You, you can't, you can't beat it. That's the way it's built. You can't change it. That's just how it is. It's the same thing when you're talking or arguing with a narcissist. They can't be reasoned with. You want to fix them. You want to think to yourself, "If only I can just explain it in a way that's gonna make them see how what they're doing is hurting me. If they could see that they're damaging us in some way." They can't do it. The game is rigged. And once you realize, "Oh, this is, this is a game that I'm in. I'm not... This isn't real life. This is just... I, I can't communicate with this person. I can't reason with them." They don't do empathy. They do anything that affects their reputation. I call it praise or provoke because they get the same feeling either way. If you are not lavishing them with praise, then they'll create some type of drama to provoke you-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher1:37

      Yes

2. 1:38 – 2:23

   Step 2: Use neutral, flat responses they can’t weaponize

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:38

      ... and other w- and to create an argument to s- still get those same type of emotions, to get the sense of control over your, over you in some sense. So understanding it's a game of praise or provoke that's not going to get you anywhere. How do you handle that? Two, you wanna use phrases that are very neutral.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:58

      Okay.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:58

      These are phrases like noted, got it, understood, that's interesting, thank you, things that are flat, things that you can't do anything with. You see, a word like noted, can't do anything with it. But if I were like... But if I were to say, "Well, okay, if that's your opinion," th- they can do anything with that. My opinion, "Oh, you're gonna talk to me like that?" And they'll take it and run with it.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

      Uh, and then provoke you.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:21

      And then provoke you, and then now you're in the game again.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:23

      Yes.

3. 2:23 – 2:54

   Step 3: Limit exposure—control time, access, and proximity

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:23

      Using flat statements, neutral statements, those are keys to not be able to... You can't do anything with them. Nobody can... You can't create a fire out of those. They're not, they're not good kindling. They can't do anything. So and three, if you need to, you, you know, make sure you limit their time. So limit the time that you're in front of them. Why are you with them? Why are you, why are you in the room with them? Are you... Maybe you're married to one. Maybe you're in a relationship with one. Maybe you are r- um, related to one in some sense. So you have to make sure of how

4. 2:54 – 3:36

   Advanced tactic: Invoke the ‘outside audience’ to change their behavior

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:54

      long are you gonna be in this kinda dynamic. One other little bonus that I like to talk about is, and this is, this is advanced, Paul. This is some advanced-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:03

      Hit us

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:04

      ... thinking.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:04

      Hit us.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:06

      So you have to use phrases that make them think about outside the walls of the conversation. So th- th- they think they're just talking to you. They don't care about you. They'll say whatever th- they need to say to control you, but they can't control the masses, and so you have to use words that make them reconsider how they look in that moment. For example, I've used phrases with experts in depositions and trials who absolutely show narcissistic

5. 3:36 – 5:01

   Why the audience tactic works (and how to phrase it)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:36

      tendencies across the board. I might be arguing with them, and they'll never agree with me. But if I were to say, "And you think the jury's gonna agree with this?" They'll go, "Well, I mean, I mean, maybe," and they start to just totally, like, on a dime, switch, change to be a different person. Now, all of a sudden, they're more likable. They're saying things that are a little bit more reasonable and more affable. Why? Because they know what they're saying is a very strong stance, so they have to kinda water it down. So anytime you can use language like people, others. If you think... Like for example, you're in a conversation with a... Let's say you're a narcissist right now, and I'm talking with you, and you're trying to pull a point to me, and I'd say, "Well, if you think others will agree with you," or, "And you think, and you think that's a good look right now," or, uh, uh, "You know, I'm not sure how other people are, would think about that." Anytime I can make them remember there's a collective-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher4:27

      Yes

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:27

      ... it's not just me and you-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:28

      Yes

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:29

      ... you know, I, I don't know. I don't know what other people m- might think of this, this conversation right now. They will change on a dime because the world's their, their stage.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:38

      Yeah. That's- [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher4:40

      Yeah.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:40

      That is so good.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher4:41

      Yeah.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:42

       That is, like, that is so good. Uh, all right.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher4:45

       It works.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:46

       Yeah. I, I can see it working-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher4:47

       Yeah

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:47

       ... because you're right, 'cause they care about what's happening outside the walls, as you said.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher4:50

       Yeah.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher4:51

       It's all-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher4:51

       Any- anytime you can break that down.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

       Yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've seen it ti- uh, time and time again, anytime I can say, "And you think the, you think, and you think other people are gonna agree with your opinion"-

   20. JFJefferson Fisher4:59

       Yes

   21. JFJefferson Fisher5:00

       ... they'll change.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher5:00

       Then they change.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher5:01

       Mm-hmm.

6. 5:01 – 5:55

   Defining gaslighting: attacking your reality and isolating trust

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:01

      Within having these challenging conversations, gaslighting-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:06

      Yeah

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:07

      ... is a term that I now see all over the place.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:10

      Right.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:11

      And it is overused and misused, but it does actually happen in many relationships. So how do you define gaslighting, and then how do we communicate with someone who is gaslighting us?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:25

      Mm. Gaslighting to me is somebody trying to alter your truth, what you know to be. They're trying to challenge the veracity of, of statements of what you know, um, making you feel like you've lost your mind. These are people who will instantly go to, "You're insane. You're crazy. How could you ever believe this? Nobody agrees with you. You know, everybody thinks you're a little crazy, right? You know this. I, I... You know, I'm the only one that's actually trying to

7. 5:55 – 6:40

   Two anchor phrases for gaslighting: “I see/remember things differently”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:55

      be your friend here in this place and try and triangulate things." It's very tied to toxic behaviors, to lying. There's a lot of the manipulation. They're all very related. Gaslighting in particular is trying to be controlling, and say, "I'm the only one you can trust To tell you the truth. In the face of all kinds of other lies, I'm the only one that can tell you the, the truth. Well, how do you deal with somebody who's a gaslighter? What I like to use, what I would recommend, is you use the phrase, "I see things differently," or, "I remember things differently." Those two phrases are the key. Somebody says something to you, you go, "I r- I remember things differently." So let's put it in terms of bite-sized chunks. Number one-

8. 6:40 – 8:10

   Gaslighting playbook: don’t chase the lie—let them ‘fall in the hole’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:40

      Okay

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:40

      ... stand your ground, meaning you cannot start to chase whatever lie they're telling you. Liars, gaslighters lie. That's their tactic. They want you to chase wherever they go. It's like a cat and a laser pointer. You ever seen, like, a laser pointer and the cats chase it everywhere? It's that. They're just holding it. They're wanting you to go from place to place to place. They're the ones in control, and they're wanting you to do it. Or it's they dig a hole and they're expecting you to fill it. So they dig a hole. It's like, "This is my lie," and you're going, "That's not true," and you start filling it. Then they tell another lie, and they start f- filling it. You just need to let them fall in the hole. There is no sense in trying to justify or try to fix their lie, 'cause that's what they want. The past is their playground. They like to play with it. You ever had a conversation or a argument with somebody who's gaslighting, you know what they like to do is try and twist the narrative. They'll say, "No, no, no, if you remember, you said this, I said this," and they'll start to recount every single who said what, who, when, what happened, and they'll do it in a narrative that fits, yeah, fits them, and you know that's, that's not what's true. That's not what happened. Rather than trying to fix it, put down the shovel, and to use the phrase, "I remember things differently." You repeat it as many times as you need to. "I remember, I remember things differently." Again, they can't do anything with that. They can't force you to say anything. They can't y- they can't create another lie out of that. They can't create a, construct a narrative out

9. 8:10 – 9:08

   Warning sign: ‘emotional discrepancy’ as a tell for manipulation

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:10

      of it. There's nothing th- that they can possibly do. And three, if they continue to gaslight you and continue to force that, again, it, it should be telling... I guess let's put three as observe the emotional discrepancy, meaning people who if they don't feel like you're taking in their lie, they get very mad. Why? 'Cause they're very afraid, very exposing, so they're gonna lash out. But see the discrepancy of where the conversation is versus where they're trying to take it. They're starting to yell. They're starting to scream. They're starting to go crazy. That in and of itself is all the warning sign you need to just stay, get away, "I remember things differently," and leave it there.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

      Yes. Yes. Yeah. Y- you know, I'm picking up too, it seems like the commonality with, with these liars-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

      Yeah

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

      ... is the emotional discrepancy-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher9:00

      Yes

   6. JFJefferson Fisher9:00

      ... that piece.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher9:01

      Right.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher9:01

      Once they're challenged and you stand your ground-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher9:04

      Right

   10. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

       ... that emotional bar just-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher9:07

       It's gone

   12. JFJefferson Fisher9:08

       ... it's gone.

10. 9:08 – 21:00

    Important nuance: big reactions can be triggers, not always narcissism

    1. JFJefferson Fisher9:08

       Yeah. Yeah. What... and what it does is when you, when you hear... When we say emotional discrepancy, let's say normal conversation is at a level two, but all of a sudden I take it up to a lo- a number 11, and I'm really loud, and I'm really getting after, and I speak a whole lot faster, and then my body language, I'm looking mad, I'm trying to look threatening and look dominating, that is a huge jump if you can go from here to here. That discrepancy is telling you something, and it's telling you that they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to, and it's... and it can be for good or for bad. So I can have a really big emotional reaction to somebody who said something that's very triggering to me, me personally, that let's say somebody, uh, let's, let's say I said something and it hit somebody's abandonment issues or f- issues with their mother or father, or it w- it's the same thing with, like, your spouse. You know their button. You know the one thing that will send them through the roof. That doesn't mean it's narcissistic or manipulative or gaslighting. It just means that's their emotional trigger. But that discrepancy is very clear typically in the liars and manipulators because they want m- quickly to get over the wall and control you. They want to control the narrative. They want all sense of you need to buy into their, to their lie or else they know they're losing.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher10:27

       Ah. Thank you.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher10:29

       Yeah. How do you deal with a narcissist?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher10:31

       How do you deal with a narcissist?

    5. JFJefferson Fisher10:33

       What I like to say is, number one, understand you're in a game, and it's a game I call praise or provoke, meaning anytime you're in a narcissist or in a conversation or an argument, you're playing a game, and it's a game that's rigged. Looks like, uh, I don't know if you've ever been, I don't know if they have them here, uh, like a carnival game.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher10:55

       Carnival game.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher10:55

       Yeah. Okay. Like you, you... It looks like it's beatable. You can toss the ring over the bottle or, uh, hit the hoop, you know, shoot the, the basketball into the, the rim that's forever away. It looks like it's w- it's winnable, like you can beat it, but it's, it's rigged. You, you can't, you can't beat it. That's the way it's built. You can't change it. That's just how it is. It's the same thing when you're talking or arguing with a narcissist. They can't be reasoned with. You want to fix them. You want to think to yourself, "If only I can just explain it in a way that's gonna make them see how what they're doing is hurting me. If they could see that they're damaging us in some way." They can't do it. The game is rigged. And once you realize, "Oh, this is, this is a game that I'm in. I'm not... This isn't real life. This is just... I, I can't communicate with this person. I can't reason with them." They don't do empathy. They do anything that affects their reputation. I call it praise or provoke because they get the same feeling either way. If you are not lavishing them with praise, then they'll create some type of drama to provoke you-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher12:07

       Yes

    9. JFJefferson Fisher12:08

       ... and other w- and to create an argument to s- still get those same type of emotions, to get the sense of control over your, over you in some sense. So understanding it's a game of praise or provoke that's not going to get you anywhere. How do you handle that? Two, you wanna use phrases that are very neutral These are phrases like noted, got it, understood, that's interesting, thank you. Things that are flat, things that you can't do anything with. You see, a word like noted, can't do anything with it. But if I were like ... But if I were to say, "Well, okay, if that's your opinion," th-they can do anything with that. My opinion, "Oh, you're gonna talk to me like that?" And they'll take it and run with it.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher12:50

        Uh, and then provoke you.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher12:50

        And then provoke you, and then now you're in the game again.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher12:53

        Yes.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher12:53

        Using flat statements, neutral statements, those are your keys to not be able to ... You can't do anything with them. Nobody can ... You can't create a fire out of those. They're not, they're not good kindling. They can't do anything. So, and three, if you need to, you n- you need to make sure you limit their time. So limit the time that you're in front of them. Why are you with them? Why are you, why are you in the room with them? Are you... Maybe you're married to one. Maybe you're in a relationship with one. Maybe you are, um, related to one in some sense. So you have to make sure of how long are you gonna be in this kind of dynamic. One other little bonus that I like to talk about is, and this is, this is advanced, Paul. This is some advanced-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher13:33

        Hit us

    15. JFJefferson Fisher13:34

        ... thinking.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher13:34

        Hit us.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher13:35

        So you have to use phrases that make them think about outside the walls of the conversation. So th- th- they think they're just talking to you. They don't care about you. They'll say whatever th-they need to say to control you, but they can't control the masses. And so you have to use words that make them reconsider how they look in that moment. For example, I've used phrases with experts in depositions and trials who absolutely show narcissistic tendencies across the board. I might be arguing with them, and they'll never agree with me, but if I were to say, "And you think the jury's gonna agree with this?" They'll go, "Well, I mean, I mean, maybe." And they start to just totally, like, on a dime, switch, change to be a different person. Now all of a sudden they're more likable. They're saying things that are a little bit more reasonable and more affable. Why? Because they know what they're saying is a very strong stance, because they have to kind of water it down. So any time you can use language like people, others. If you think, like for example, you're in a conversation with a ... Let's say you're a narcissist right now, and I'm talking with you, and you're trying to pull a point to me. And I'd say, "Well, if you think others will agree with you," or, "And you think, and you think that's a good look right now." Or, uh, uh, "You know, I'm not sure how other people are, would think about that." Any time I can make them remember there's a collective-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher14:57

        Yes

    19. JFJefferson Fisher14:57

        ... it's not just me and you.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher14:58

        Yes.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher14:59

        You know, I, I don't know. I don't know what other people m- might think of this, this conversation right now. They will change on a dime because the world's their, their stage.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher15:08

        Yeah. That's- [laughs]

    23. JFJefferson Fisher15:10

        Yeah.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher15:10

        That is so good.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher15:11

        Yeah.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher15:12

        That is, like, that is so good. Uh, all right.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher15:15

        It works.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher15:15

        Yeah. I, I can see it working.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher15:17

        Yeah.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher15:17

        Because you're right, 'cause they care about what's happening outside the walls, as you said.
11. 21:00 – 22:58

    Handling authoritative/family pressure: understand the motive behind the question

    1. JFJefferson Fisher21:00

       How do we navigate conversations with more authoritative figures-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher21:06

       Mm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher21:06

       ... in our life?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher21:06

       Can we... Let's talk real quick about w- why they feel the need to ask that kind of thing, 'cause I think it's worth exploring with me and you. Right? I mean, why would mothers... I'm not a mother. I'm a father. I know why I might ask something in a way that I don't mean it offensively, but I am curious, and I'm curious of why, why, why do you think parents want to ask that kind of thing? Is it disapproving? Do they feel like they disapprove of the kids?

    5. JFJefferson Fisher21:38

       No. No.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher21:39

       You think that they wish that they was, they were more like them?

    7. JFJefferson Fisher21:43

       No. I, y- you know, I, I suppose a component of it could be fear. The reason why I go back-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher21:50

       Mm

    9. JFJefferson Fisher21:50

       ... to fear is because I, I, I think i- and it, this is a- another challenge that a lot of the audience has, and that is, is, you know, you should be married already.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher21:59

        Right.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher21:59

        You're 35. What are you doing? You should already have a, a child by now. You should be married.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher22:04

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher22:04

        And, and, and I think a, a, a lot of it could be their fear in- appropriately assigned.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher22:13

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher22:13

        But I think that it could be the, i, i, I think that they could be reacting out of fear.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher22:19

        Right. I think you're right. I think a lot of it has to do, like with most things, has to do with the fear, whether they're, they want their child to have a partner. They don't want them to be alone should they're not, should they not be there. Now, there's also some other mother-in-laws who just need that control. You know, they, they, because their son is the biggest thing to them, and they need to make sure that they are the ones controlling and thinking what the wife should do and disapproving. If it's not anything like what they would do, they need to, to voice that.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher22:53

        Yes.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher22:54

        Common, common across I think all cultures all over the world.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher22:58

        Yes.

12. 22:58 – 23:59

    A curiosity pivot: “What makes you ask?” to gather context

    1. JFJefferson Fisher22:58

       Now, how do you handle that kind of thing? One, uh, you need to see it for what it is. That's typically a show of personal selfish concern from them. They're wanting something. It needs, either needs to, the life needs to look more like they want it to be. So one, recognize where it's coming from. Rather than taking it super personally, recognize where it's coming from. I would encourage you to ask questions that are going to open them up a little bit more, questions like, "What makes you ask?" Something as easy as that is often to get them... Why? Because we want to find more information.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher23:36

       Sure.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher23:36

       We want to find is it really the fear? Rather than getting so worked up and personal of, um, and getting defensive, just ask one more question, like we talked about, that's gonna get you a little bit more information of where is the question coming from. Is it truly curiosity, or is it because their friend Janice asked them two weeks ago and they didn't know what to say so they need to, you know, what do, what do I know?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher23:59

       Right.

13. 23:59 – 24:57

    Soft boundary script: ‘appreciation but dismissal’

    1. JFJefferson Fisher23:59

       So number one, understand the, the context. Two, if you can, use wor- use words of appreciation but dismissal. This is what I-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher24:09

       Ooh

    3. JFJefferson Fisher24:09

       ... this, this is-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher24:10

       Appreciation but dismissal.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher24:11

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] And, and, and I, I mean dismissive in, in the positive c- c- context, not in like a get out of here.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher24:18

       Okay.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher24:19

       So that would sound like, "I appreciate the concern," or, "Happy." "I appreciate, I appreciate the thought. We're good." Something as simple as that. You're not having to explain. Now, there are people who would probably rather hear me say the hard stuff of, "Excuse me, that's none of your business." In personal context with family and friends- That's not the best move. With strangers, sure. It's the, what makes you ask? W- why, why should you know? Now, that's a defensive statement, but if it's a stranger, go for it.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher24:51

       Okay, I see it. I, I s- I see it. It's a, it's a nice dismiss.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher24:55

       It's a nice dismiss.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher24:55

        It's a soft dismiss.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher24:56

        It is, yes.

14. 24:57 – 27:55

    Hard dismissals and breakups: skip small talk and label the conversation

    1. JFJefferson Fisher24:57

       Okay. So then rounding out this difficult conversation-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher25:02

       Mm-hmm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher25:03

       ... right, this category is, what happens if we need a hard dismiss, if we are letting someone go out of our life?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher25:11

       Oh, yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher25:12

       We're breaking up.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher25:13

       Oh.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher25:14

       How do we approach and handle that conversation?

    8. JFJefferson Fisher25:19

       Those are hard. Those are probably the, some of the hardest conversations you'll ever have with people who you need to, you know that you need to let go of, people that they're wonderful people. You just know, you know, they're not, they're not your person. They're not your people. Or you, they have a great job, and they're good, but you, you know they're not gonna be with you. How do you have those kind of conversations? Well, you can use a frame like we talked about, the one, two, three. What I would encourage is you need to eliminate the small talk. If you need to have a really difficult conversation with somebody and you need to end the relationship, don't begin with the small talk. That begins... It typically sounds like, "So look, Paul, uh, you know, I've really enjoyed getting to know you these last few hours and everything, but, uh..." Right there. That, that's where it is. Or we, um, w- a lot of times we like to use this, um, this other phrase. We'll say, "Paul, it's been great. You know, I've really enjoyed getting to know you. So listen, uh..." That right there is, we know it's all going downhill.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher26:33

       Yes.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher26:34

        And the other person is just in immense anxiety 'cause they don't know what's happening. They're gonna assume you're automatically, you hate them, everything's going worse. That's w- that's why it's not great to start with the, the positive and then end with the negative. Not gonna go well. Instead, this is what I want you to do. Number one, eliminate the small talk. Two, get straight to the point. You're gonna label the conversation. Label it. Before you even get started, you're gonna say something to the tune of, "This is gonna be a difficult conversation." You know, see how easy that is? "This is gonna be a difficult conversation." Rather than making them assume or guess or figure out it's difficult, I'm telling you at the outset, "This is gonna be a difficult conversation," or, "This is gonna be hard to talk about. You're not gonna like what I have to say. This is probably gonna come as a surprise to you. I'm, I'm not gonna enjoy this conversation." Anything like that is going to allow, is gonna label exactly what's coming up and then allow them to kind of catch themself, ready themselves, and then deliver what you need to deliver. Then you need to cut it. So three would be end the relationship right then. Don't wait to the very end. Don't... Yeah, I, I promise you, the quicker you pull off the Band-Aid, the more relief it's gonna be and the more connection and conversation you're actually going to have. You see how it's, it's not nearly as kind when you're indirect.

15. 27:55 – 30:39

    Why the ‘compliment sandwich’ backfires (and what’s kinder)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher27:55

       Y- y- you know what's so fascinating to me about this-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher27:57

       Hmm

    3. JFJefferson Fisher27:57

       ... is this, once again, is more advice that really flies in the face of conventional thought.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher28:05

       Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher28:05

       'Cause I think that the conventional way of dismissing someone, letting someone go, et cetera, is this, the crap sandwich.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher28:12

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher28:12

       Right? So, uh, uh, so the bread on top, say something positive-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher28:16

       Right

    9. JFJefferson Fisher28:16

       ... or kind and nice.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher28:17

        Yeah.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher28:17

        Then the meat, hit them with the, "Okay-"

    12. JFJefferson Fisher28:19

        Correct.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher28:19

        "... this is not going to work."

    14. JFJefferson Fisher28:20

        Yeah.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher28:20

        And then hit them with another piece of bread-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher28:22

        Yeah, exactly

    17. JFJefferson Fisher28:23

        ... at the end, and it's a sandwich. And what you are s- suggesting that we do is much more effective.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher28:31

        Right.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher28:31

        It's kinder to the individual, and it, I think that we, as the person who's delivering it, we can deliver it with more integrity.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher28:40

        Yeah, it's, it's more genuine. It's more honest.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher28:42

        Yeah.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher28:42

        I mean, uh, it's, it's even worse when you can, when you leave a conversation like that and you feel worse about it. Like, you feel bad, and the other person now doesn't really trust you because you started with all these wonderful things, and then you ended it with a, a curveball for them, rather than being truthful at the outset. And so the quicker you can, let's say even if it's, you need to end the relationship, rather than... As, as soon as you say this phrase, "Look, you've been great," you're already t- you're already talking in past tense.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher29:12

        [laughs] Right. That's true.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher29:13

        You know? It is, "Look, I've really enjoyed getting to know you. You've been so great, and, you know, it's not you, it's me." It... We, of course it is. Of course it's me. I mean, it's, it's... That kind of language does, does nothing but make them despise you later because it's, doesn't match their experience. You're giving them fake, empty words. This compliment sandwich is hard to chew, you know? It's impossible to swallow, and truly it's an insult sandwich, I guess, because if you... I mean, it's, the insult's in the middle.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher29:46

        [laughs]

    26. JFJefferson Fisher29:47

        You know what I mean? Uh, if it's a ham sandwich, y- you call it a ham sandwich. If the insult's in the middle, it should really be an insult sandwich.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher29:54

        Yes.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher29:54

        Um, but it's this idea that if I slow roll these soft compliments, and then at the end I, I have to, "So look, it's not really my fault, and there's things that, you know, we're just not really compatible, and I just really feel like..." That kind of language is terrible. You can phrase it however you want to.

    29. JFJefferson Fisher30:14

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher30:15

        But the point is eliminate the small talk, label the conversation, give them a little breath, and then tell them what's going on. That's, it's far, far better and far kinder in your communication.

Episode duration: 30:39