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The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Why Family Arguments Are Always Worse Ft. The Foster Sisters

What happens when your sister is also your best friend and business partner? In this episode, I sit down with Erin and Sara Foster, better known as The Foster Sisters, for an honest conversation about family dynamics, sibling arguments, people-pleasing, and what it really means to speak your mind. We talk about why the people closest to us can hurt us the most, how to be direct without being disrespectful, and why so many people struggle to say no without feeling guilty. We also get into the challenges women face when speaking with authority, the communication habits that quietly create conflict, and the difference between being liked and being respected. Plus, I put Sara on the spot about two little words that might be making her conversations harder than they need to be. If you've ever struggled to stand up for yourself, communicate with family, or worry too much about what other people think, this conversation is for you. Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Every Dollar. Try EveryDollar Premium free for 14 days, full access, on me. Go to https://everydollar.com/jefferson Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/JEFFERSON, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostErin FosterguestSara Fosterguest
Oct 20, 20261h 5mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:44

    Why sibling fights feel more intense than any other relationship

    1. JF

      How often do y'all fight? Truly. Like off camera, on camera

    2. EF

      I, I would say sometimes we have different answers for this 'cause we have different sort of expectations of inner peace.

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. EF

      But, um, I'd say we've been... We have been a lot better the last, like few months, but in general I'd say we have a pretty volatile relationship. Would you not say the same?

    5. SF

      Volatile?

    6. EF

      I mean that-

    7. SF

      Shots fired. I mean, that's a... I would not-

    8. JF

      Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty-

    9. SF

      Yeah. That, like volatile is like an ins-

    10. JF

      [laughs]

    11. SF

      Like that's an insane thing to say, but continue.

    12. JF

      What's the last few months?

    13. EF

      Sara has a hi- Sara has a higher threshold for chaos in her life than I do. Sara has a higher threshold for like fighting and screaming. Like it doesn't affect her the same way it affects me.

    14. JF

      Mm.

    15. EF

      So for me, I have, I fight with Sara more than I fight with anybody else in my life, so it feels much higher for me. But for her, she's just sort of like, maybe she can, she... It, it doesn't like disrupt her as much as it-

    16. SF

      Okay. I think that you, if, if you didn't bury your feelings towards other people and have such a, like, um, a threshold-

    17. EF

      Mm

    18. SF

      ... for it sort of thing, like you'd fight with them more. But because you hold nothing back with me, you lean into it more. There are other people, and don't... I, I'll list names, where you are like-

    19. JF

      [laughs]

    20. SF

      ... annoyed and resentful and have deep feelings, but you just don't go there. But with me, it's sort of like you're just down to go there. Am I correct? Maybe not.

    21. JF

      Maybe. Ooh.

    22. EF

      I don't know. I think it's partially true. I think it's partially true, but, but there's just something about Sara-

    23. SF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    24. EF

      ... that really grinds my gears. [laughs]

    25. JF

      Well, I mean, if you were, if you were not-

    26. EF

      It runs next to me

    27. JF

      ... if you were not sisters-

    28. EF

      Oh

    29. JF

      ... right?

    30. EF

      Yeah

  2. 1:44 – 3:34

    You can’t “quit” your sister: the built-in stakes of family relationships

    1. JF

      ... if, if you know that there is, this is a relationship that it's not like you can get out of it, you're s- you're gonna be sisters. You think that plays a role-

    2. EF

      Exactly

    3. JF

      ... in, you know... What, what is it about sibling communications?

    4. EF

      Yeah. The stakes are so much... Well, don't you think, Jefferson, do you have siblings?

    5. JF

      I'm the oldest of four. Yeah.

    6. EF

      Oh, okay, so you have a lot of siblings.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EF

      So it's like there's so many things baked into that relationship. It's not just a friendship. It's like this is the parent to your nieces and nephews you want a relationship with, right?

    9. JF

      Mm.

    10. EF

      These are the... This is the person who is sort of in lockstep with you in decisions you make about your parents. And it's, it's a relationship that you can't just sort of sever because you're not getting along, because there's all these other things that are connected. So there are so many things that keep you coming back. It's not just a girlfriend that you can call once a week and sort of ignore the rest of their life if you disagree with it or like you don't, aren't aligned-

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm

    12. EF

      ... and you're not in the same place in, in each other's lives. So I think for Sara and I, there's that, and then there's on top of it our business relationship. And so-

    13. JF

      Right

    14. EF

      ... there are so many different, um, like sectors to our relationship that we sort of are forced to keep reexamining it and keep finding common ground, which is good for us. 'Cause I think if we didn't have all of those, um, connector points, then maybe some of our fights would have like lingered a lot longer.

    15. SF

      I also think that I'm just held to a different standard than anyone else in her life, and I've always felt like that, and I've communicated that to you. I feel like a lot of people get away with a lot of things that I don't get away with in her-

    16. JF

      [laughs]

    17. SF

      ... under her microscope, you know? And listen, I f- I would not say we have a volatile relationship. I would say that we have a really good relationship.

    18. EF

      And therein lies the difference.

    19. SF

      Wow. Okay.

    20. JF

      Well, I think you have-

    21. SF

      Well, there you go. [laughs]

  3. 3:34 – 8:27

    Old roles, old scripts: how family history keeps repeating patterns

    1. JF

      I mean, well... Well I th- to me, it's like, well, I, I know my parents or my siblings, there are times when our relationship is volatile because it can go up and down because this person, I... When the closer they are to you, right, the, the more em- emotional the conversations become because they're also historical. And so often-

    2. SF

      Yeah

    3. JF

      ... it's continues to repeat in the same pattern, and it's like you, at least in my family, you each kinda take your own slot, your own role that you feel like you've had your whole li- life, so you kind of revert back-

    4. SF

      Mm

    5. JF

      ... in sibling conversation to, okay, who's, who's the responsible one? Who's the black sheep? Who's the person who throws a fit? Who's the person who always tries to be the, the adult? And it's like-

    6. SF

      And then you get stuck in those roles.

    7. JF

      You get stuck in those roles, and it's... But I mean, to me, when I hear you saying, "Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm hold, I'm held to a different standard," my question that comes up to my mind is would that not be a little scary if you weren't? I, um, it- it's it- that like that aspect of there, there is a reason why the closer you are, you know, the easier it is to hurt.

    8. EF

      Mm.

    9. JF

      It wouldn't, it wouldn't really much matter otherwise. Do y'all find that-

    10. EF

      It's a good point. Jefferson, it's a good point, and I know this, we're turning this into therapy, but-

    11. JF

      No

    12. EF

      ... there's, there are some people in my life where, like, when they do things I disagree with or whatever, I just sort of block it out because I'm sort of like, "Well, I don't really need... I don't aspire to have a better relationship with that person."

    13. JF

      Hmm.

    14. EF

      "I don't aspire to feel close to that person." But with Sara, it's like I always want it to be high-functioning.

    15. JF

      Hmm.

    16. EF

      And when I say volatile, what I think is that it's really hard for Sara and I to have conflict that stays healthy. Like if we have conflict, it gets to yelling quickly or it gets to, like it gets to a high-

    17. JF

      Yeah

    18. EF

      ... boiling point where I, where I would love for us to have conflict that stays... And then we, that's why I say we've been doing better the last few months because I've felt like I've been able to bring things up where we can have a conversation instead of an argument. It just goes to arguing quickly, and I, I have a-

    19. JF

      Hmm

    20. EF

      ... it like disregulates me, having argument with somebody, you know?

    21. JF

      Right. And I think also with siblings in particular, and y'all have such a, I mean, wild dynamic from sisters, friends, business partners. Um, I mean- You all have a, a very, if you wanna call it a blended family. Like, there's a lot.

    22. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JF

      You have a public, public family. There's a lot that goes into that. And that when you have this person that you've close with, and usually in bigger families too, in mind, like you might be closer to one family member than the other, one sibling than the other. It's because they get to see all your messy. They get to see, they get to see the mess that other people don't, they don't see. And that's, that's for good and for bad.

    24. EF

      Do you feel, Jefferson, in your siblings, 'cause this is what you do professionally, is like-

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm

    26. EF

      ... conflict resolution, right?

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. EF

      This is your specialty. But then you're a human being like anyone else, so are there dynamics with your siblings where they can really push your buttons in the way that somebody else can't, or you start to resolve something, and they're like, "Don't do that fucking lawyer bullshit with me."

    29. JF

      [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    30. EF

      "I know who you are, Jefferson."

  4. 8:27 – 10:43

    Keeping conflict healthy: I-statements, tone, and asking vs. telling

    1. JF

      ... the course of action?

    2. EF

      I'd say, like, using I statements, right? Like, for me, it feels this way, as opposed to, like, accusing the other person. I always say to Sara, like, for me, I can have any conversation, it's just how it's brought to me. I feel very, like, sensitive to how something's brought up to me. So if Sara is, like, yelling at me or, like, snapping, I'm gonna immediately shut down. But if you're, like, asking a question, then I can really hear it better. And so when it comes to Favorite Daughter, you know, when we're in fittings, we, I'm always like, "If you would just say, 'Hey, what do you think about it changing to this?' I'm always gonna listen. But if you, like, tell me, you know, 'This is wrong, this is ugly, and it has to be this way,' then I immediately, like, will reject." Like, I have such a reaction, and it's not even with Sara, it's, like, with work people in general.

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EF

      If someone tells me how it's gonna go, it's like I will fight to the ends of the earth and just never give in.

    5. JF

      [laughs] .

    6. EF

      Like, I will never give in.

    7. JF

      Yeah, just, just to prove 'em wrong.

    8. EF

      I will be in a coffin still holding my ground.

    9. JF

      [laughs]

    10. EF

      But if I'm asked the question, like I have, I can participate in the, in the solution, then I'm, like, really open.

    11. SF

      But is that something you wanna fix, or you're just, like, down to be that way?

    12. EF

      Well, in, to me, someone t- as a, who's a partner telling me how things are gonna go, that's not how a partnership works.

    13. SF

      No, no, but you're saying, you're saying-

    14. EF

      Partnership is-

    15. SF

      ... this is how you are, like, in life, that it's like if you feel that-

    16. EF

      Yeah

    17. SF

      ... kind of threat, you will go into your cof-

    18. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SF

      Like, I'm just saying, is that, are you just sort of like, "That's how I am and that's how I'll stay"? Or is it something you're trying to work on?

    20. EF

      It's hard to say 'cause it's like, it's not that I'm not trying to work on it, it's just I don't want to be in partnerships where the person doesn't come to me with, like, respectful resolution tactics.

    21. SF

      Mm-hmm.

    22. EF

      You know? So I guess if somebody's sort of, like, bullying me into something or manipulating me, then I'm, I don't see a reason to give in, but I know that that's stubborn.

    23. SF

      Yeah, I think we're both stubborn.

    24. JF

      Sara, what do you-

    25. SF

      Yeah. I mean, listen, I think we're both-

    26. JF

      Whoa. I've, we're all three stubborn.

    27. SF

      Yeah.

    28. JF

      I think we're all three stubborn.

    29. SF

      I think, I think we're both-

    30. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

  5. 10:43 – 14:07

    Different people, different wounds: stopping the urge to manage each other

    1. SF

      I think we're both stubborn in all facets of our life and all of our relationships. I think that the biggest thing that Erin and I have had to overcome on both sides is I think I of, I always felt, and we've talked about this on our podcast, we've talked about, uh, you know, on so many places, but is that Erin and I are very different people. We were raised in the same home, but we did have different childhoods. And we have different wounds.

    2. JF

      Hmm.

    3. SF

      We have different wounds, we have different triggers, we have different shit, and it doesn't mean that one is more important than the other, but I think for Erin, for a long time, it was like it would crush her soul that I did not operate the same way she did in conflict, in relationships, with our pa- whatever it is. And I think f- and maybe vice versa, and I think we got to a place where it's like no, no, we're not the same people. We're not the same people.

    4. JF

      Hmm.

    5. SF

      We feel differently about things. We feel diff- like we, we're different people. And once I stopped-

    6. EF

      Mm-hmm

    7. SF

      ... managing how she was and she stopped managing how I was, we're not each other's sheriffs. Um-

    8. JF

      Hmm

    9. SF

      ... and once you accept that, even if it's annoying, and even if of cour- of course, who doesn't want everyone around you to feel the same way about things as you? It makes life a lot easier, and it, it validates your feelings. And it's not easy, but I think now, I think Erin just kind of like, "Sara's Sara. I, I can't, I can't force her to feel this way about this person."

    10. EF

      I've definitely stopped pressuring Sara to do things the way that I want her to do things.

    11. SF

      Yeah.

    12. EF

      Like, I'm always, have always been the person in the family that's, like, trying to get everyone together and trying to, like, schedule hangs-

    13. JF

      Hmm

    14. EF

      ... and, you know, get, you know, I'm, I cr- really try to push togetherness, and Sara has always rejected that. And it, for me, it was like, "Well, we can't get together unless Sara participates. Well, we can't make this happen unless Sara brings her kids."

    15. JF

      Hmm.

    16. EF

      Like, it's like this missing piece that I was always trying to force. Like, you can't just be the only one who says no. Like, it disrupted everything, and Sara was very much like, "Leave me alone. I'm gonna do my own thing." And so it's been hard. I mean, it's a little easier now 'cause I can connect with her-

    17. SF

      [laughs] Now they have phones

    18. EF

      ... through the children without her.

    19. JF

      [laughs]

    20. EF

      I can go around her. Um, and I have my own child, so now I have, like, a bargaining chip-

    21. JF

      Yeah

    22. EF

      ... you know, of my own. But for a long time, I felt very, um-

    23. SF

      You also have that pool.

    24. EF

      I felt-

    25. SF

      You know, we wanna visit that pool of yours.

    26. EF

      Yeah. But I felt, like, very handcuffed to Sara because it was like she held the keys. She was the first one of me and her and our little sister to have kids, so it was like she had these important elements to the, to the family, and she just wouldn't respond, wouldn't call back, wouldn't commit. And it was like, it, like, really was ve- very challenging for me to not just, like, show up at her house and, like, force her to do something.

    27. JF

      Hmm. Before we keep going, a quick note on Every Dollar. Some of the hardest conversations you're going to have are conversations about money, especially in relationships. And here's the thing, money conversations are not so much of a math problem, they are a plan problem. That's where Every Dollar comes in. It is an app that helps you create goals to put money behind certain things to where you have to stop guessing and start asking, "Where did everything go?" When you make a plan for your money, everything goes smoothly. And you know what happens? The conversations

  6. 14:07 – 19:46

    Sara’s communication growth: learning vulnerability without equating it to weakness

    1. JF

      go smoother, too. Right now, give every dollar you spend and every dollar after that a real plan. Try Every Dollar Premium for free for 14 days, full access on me. That's everydollar.com/jefferson and get Every Dollar Premium for 14 days for free. And now, let's keep going. Sara, what, what would you say if, if I, if you look at the last, let's say, five years, three years-

    2. SF

      Hmm

    3. JF

      ... what's something you've had to unlearn-

    4. SF

      Hmm

    5. JF

      ... about the way you communicate? And I'm not, not talking just with Erin, but I'm saying-

    6. SF

      In general

    7. JF

      ... in business, in life. Yeah, what have you had to, about yourself, unlearn how you communicate?

    8. SF

      I think that the biggest thing for me, and I still haven't figured it out, is vulnerability. Like, it's very hard for me to say, "Okay, but that really hurts my feelings," or, "That makes me feel unworthy," or, "When you do that, it makes me feel less than." Or, like, whatever the case may be, not just with Erin but literally just in life. I think, I think I'm so conditioned that that's weakness, and I need to, I've been trying to unlearn that.

    9. JF

      Hmm.

    10. SF

      Like, it's kind of like I have to be tough, I have to not care, nothing affects me, I have to persevere, I have to just keep going, and I will never let you, um, see me falter. I will not let you see that side of me-

    11. JF

      Hmm

    12. SF

      ... because I'm tougher than that. And, and I've, I'm like this in every aspect. I mean, don't get me started on, like, romantic relationships. Like, what a disaster, you know? Like, a-

    13. EF

      If you could help her there, that'd be wonderful, thanks.

    14. SF

      [laughs]

    15. JF

      [laughs] Yeah.

    16. SF

      No, because you can't connect with another, with a romantic partner unless you show-

    17. EF

      Mm-hmm

    18. SF

      ... vulnerability. You just, you just can't. But if you-

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. EF

      And show interest

    21. SF

      ... of course, but if you show vulnerability and interest, y- that puts you at risk for being rejected, right? So it's, it's like a, a-

    22. JF

      Right. To be fully known.

    23. SF

      To be fully known.

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. SF

      And I think reje-

    26. EF

      Which, by the way, is the essence of dating. It's why dating is so hard and scary is because rejection's-

    27. SF

      Of course

    28. EF

      ... on the table. It's what makes it so exciting.

    29. SF

      Ex- exciting. Scary.

    30. EF

      And it's terrible.

  7. 19:46 – 21:08

    Erin’s unlearning: impatience, control, and the need for a “shared reality”

    1. JF

      Erin, is there something you had to unlearn about the way you've communicated?

    2. EF

      Yeah. I, I'm very, like, impatient. I'm really, I'm really, like, I, I, I rush the resolution or I rush the conversation, and I, like, I can't... It's really hard for me to not, you know, like Sara was saying, try to control the other person's experience. Like, I think for me, something that makes me feel really safe is a shared reality.

    3. SF

      Mm.

    4. EF

      And, and we talked about this, Jefferson, when you came on our podcast, 'cause we, you know, even still three years later, I would say far worse now, we're living in such a-

    5. JF

      Mm

    6. EF

      ... bizarre time with, you know, the news cycle the way that it is, where you're getting news from people who aren't, you know, journalists.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. EF

      Or you're getting, you know, you're getting opinion news.

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. EF

      So it's very, very intense. Um, and it makes you feel that there is one right way and wro-

    11. JF

      Mm

    12. EF

      ... one wrong way, uh, depending on your algorithm. And so it's really hard for me when I feel like someone is not having the share, the same shared experience I am, the same, that we don't have a shared reality. Uh, and so that's something I'm working on is, is like my husband says to me, "Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it's weird-

    13. SF

      Mm

    14. EF

      ... or that it's wrong."

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EF

      Uh, and that's been hard for me to understand.

    17. JF

      Do you find-

    18. EF

      Honestly, it genuinely has been.

  8. 21:08 – 30:54

    Business vs. family: picking battles, public blowups, and fear of loss

    1. JF

      Well, yeah, I think that's, that's hard for a lot of people. Do you, as, since y'all are, I mean, business professionals, yeah, I mean, y'all have, what y'all have done and what you've created is incredible, uh, and I, I find to be incredibly unique in any space, uh, up against anyone, really. Uh, how have y'all found about how you communicate in business professionally compared to how you might communicate when it's, you know, behind closed doors? Is there a line where you kinda just know, hey, w- are you the same on both ends, or you know when you're in business you're saying, "This is how we're gonna communicate a little differently"?

    2. SF

      I've learned to pick, I've learned to pick my battles I think. I think I never used to hold my tongue. I think I was professional at having our conflicts in front of people loud with zero sort of self-awareness of w- how it was making other people feel, and I'm not by any means, uh, you know, um, doing it perfectly still, but I'm aware. So, like, if something comes up-

    3. JF

      Mm

    4. SF

      ... and I wanna be like, you know, "Well, you're fucking wrong. Like, that's just wrong." I t- no, no, I used to say that. Like, I would say that. But by the way, so would she.

    5. EF

      Yeah, true.

    6. SF

      I mean, when we were shooting Barely Famous, our TV... Uh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    7. EF

      Mm. To you, to you, to you, to you, to you. Not to other people.

    8. SF

      To me. Um, no, please. When we were shooting Barely Famous, a show that we both created, we both wrote, we both starred in, she treated me like a goddamn intern on the set, okay? Um, but, but, and, like, loudly and in front of people. But so it's, you know, it goes both ways. But I'm aware of it now. Like, I'm aware. I used to not be aware-

    9. JF

      Mm

    10. SF

      ... of what I was doing to other people. I think honestly, I'm so used to not being successful, I'm so used to not mattering, that now that we matter and now that we have all these things, it's like, it's like I don't know how to... I forget. Like, I forget that people look up to us. I forget that we have the power and influence that we have in our businesses. Like, I truly forget, and I'm now so much more aware of, of that. Does that, did that answer your question at all?

    11. JF

      Yeah. No, it did. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious, Erin, how, how has your communication, is there, like, a flip that you switch when it comes to, "Hey, I am now an owner of a very respected, doing very well business, um, and here I am having, uh, an incredible, you know, show, Nobody Wants This," and you go, "I, I have to communicate differently than I did before." I'm, I'm curious of that difference.

    12. EF

      Mm-hmm. I had, um, I have different experiences in the different businesses. And so for instance, with Favorite Daughter, Sara and I are, like, ki- essentially have the same role, and we had to really divide and conquer and figure out our different skill sets to create space for each other there.

    13. JF

      Mm.

    14. EF

      And that was much more conflict-heavy for me. When it came to Nobody Wants This, I had conflict, but it was with people I wasn't related to, and I felt super unemotional about it. I had this weird flip that I switched where- I had like very strong boundaries and I didn't let people cross them and it didn't scare me to lose the show, to lose them, to lose my role. I was just like, I know what I believe in and I'm going to stand my ground and I don't really care who it upsets. And I'm, I'm okay with people not liking me from that process. And so I, I feel like I've had a much healthier, um, uh, emotional sort of like compartmentalization in the TV show. Uh, and I don't know what that is too, but I've had a lot of people treat me in a lot of many very shitty ways around the TV show. And I sort of took it and absorbed it and then just like continued on my path.

    15. SF

      I think it's because you-

    16. JF

      Is that like an identity thing?

    17. SF

      And didn't lose sleep over it. I think it's because she would have really been okay if it went away. When you're actually okay with it-

    18. EF

      Yeah

    19. SF

      ... when you're so attached to an outcome, it changes things. Like for me, I'm not okay with anything going away. So I hold on really tightly. So I'm afraid to misstep.

    20. EF

      Sara like lives in fear. She operates from fear of loss and just losing stuff.

    21. SF

      Yeah, for Erin-

    22. EF

      She'll lose the business

    23. SF

      ... Erin genuinely was like, "I'm married. I'm gonna, I'm pregnant. Like I, I get, I have everything I've ever wanted that I finally have. If I don't have this show, I can live with that."

    24. JF

      Hmm.

    25. EF

      That was part of it, but I think also it's, it, for me at least, knowing that I have this creative control to some degree on the dialogue of a show and I have a really strong attachment to the outcome and what it should feel like, it's almost like it creates this sort of, um, like integrity around it either needs to be the way that I envisioned it or I think it just shouldn't be out. And if it's not out, that's okay, but it's better than it coming out and I didn't control it. Does that make sense? Like it, it-

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. EF

      It's like-

    28. SF

      Yeah

    29. EF

      ... this thing that I'm creating, it has to be, it has to be, be presented in the way that I saw it, and if it can't be, then I'm okay with it just not happening. I don't know. There's some sort of comfort in that. It, it's-

    30. JF

      Hmm

  9. 30:54 – 41:42

    Direct women in leadership: damned if you do, damned if you don’t

    1. JF

      Get your first three months free. And now, let's keep going. You know, I have a lot of people who Not just look up to y'all, um, but look into any female who's a leader in business and profession, and they say, "Look, I have a really hard time being direct," or, "I'm too direct, and that gets counted against me."

    2. SF

      Yeah.

    3. JF

      And so w- I have... I really would love y'all's insight on what do you say to the woman who is aspiring themself in business and they say, "Every time I'm direct, this gets counted against me. How in the world should I handle this?"

    4. SF

      Well, I think in corporate America, things are really hard right now. I think that we're in a place of sensitivity amongst a lot of the younger generation that is very hard to navigate. The whole concept-

    5. JF

      Mm

    6. SF

      ... of like, you know, w- when you, when you work [scoffs]

    7. EF

      That if you upset your employee, that you're essentially like, like-

    8. SF

      Yeah, exactly

    9. EF

      ... the easiest.

    10. SF

      So it's like very hard to navigate the waters because it's like when you work somewhere, you are working somewhere. You have a job to do. If you don't do your job, you get reprimanded. Like, that's just how the world works. Like, when my kids go to school-

    11. JF

      Mm

    12. SF

      ... if they don't do what they're supposed to do, I want them to get in trouble, you know? It's like that is sort of, that is, that is how the world works.

    13. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SF

      And so I do think it's really tough right now because you're... You know, I have someone in my life who is, who is direct, who is a boss, who kills herself, who works 20 hours a day. You can call her at 1:00 in the morning, she's gonna pick up because she's always working. And she gets accused a lot of the time of being a bitch, and she's not a bitch.

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EF

      Mm-hmm.

    17. SF

      She's just really good at her job. She doesn't expect anything from anyone else that she doesn't also bring to the table, but she's doxxed. And it's like-

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm

    19. SF

      ... it's... So I, I don't know that I have the...

    20. EF

      My... Well, I haven't been asked that person.

    21. SF

      What is it? You have to accept the truth of being a working woman, which is people are gonna think you're being bossy and bitchy when you're being direct and being the boss.

    22. EF

      Yeah. I mean, I was told that I was being really bossy. Um, bossy and lazy, actually, is the-

    23. SF

      Wait, lazy? Who? [laughs]

    24. JF

      Wow. Really?

    25. EF

      Um, [laughs] it was kind of said behind my back.

    26. JF

      Wow.

    27. EF

      Yeah, by a man who didn't like my authority. And, and it wasn't like to my face, it was about me. And I remember being like, it's a little counterintuitive to be... So I'm really bossy all the time also, like, not doing my job.

    28. SF

      Isn't that like an oxymoron? Aren't, like, lazy people not really, like, bo- bossy?

    29. EF

      Yeah, it felt like... Yeah. That's why it felt to me like a man who just really didn't like a woman being in charge, and I felt really sensitive to him, to it for a while, and then I thought to myself and I was like, "Well, a passive boss probably isn't a great boss." So I think a woman being in charge, being direct, and asking for what she wants-

    30. SF

      Yeah

  10. 41:42 – 42:59

    Sibling loyalty: you can criticize your sister, but outsiders can’t

    1. JF

      What are you used to? That, uh, that's a really good question. Do you find that when... If somebody, let's say, Sara, that some- you hear, overhear somebody say something negative about Erin, do you like just-

    2. SF

      Nah, that, no. That would never happen

    3. JF

      ... do you just f- I'm saying, do you flip, do you flip out-

    4. SF

      Yeah

    5. JF

      ... of like you're much more protec- It's like one of those things where it's like, um, like I can complain about my mom, but if you say something about my mom-

    6. SF

      Oh

    7. JF

      ... like we're, it's, it's on.

    8. SF

      Not even a question. You don't wanna do that.

    9. EF

      Mm-mm.

    10. SF

      No. Nobody ever would, but I mean, I can't think of a time when maybe that has happened, but no, that would be... Like, for all you wanna say, there's no world where like I could ever sit there and be like, "Oh, yeah, I agree." It's like even if I do agree, I'm not telling you.

    11. JF

      Right.

    12. SF

      I'm not telling you that. Oh, well, I t- I do talk shit about her with her husband. That I will do. That I will do.

    13. JF

      Well... Yeah.

    14. SF

      You know, like that's happened.

    15. EF

      Yeah, like with our moms.

    16. SF

      That's happened.

    17. JF

      That's called bonding.

    18. SF

      Yeah. That's-

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. SF

      Oh, no, please.

    21. EF

      Yeah, exactly.

    22. SF

      It, like, there, there's like a, there's like a, a, a hotline f- in my family of, like, just talking shit about me.

    23. JF

      [laughs]

    24. SF

      Um, but yeah, no, that would be... That's not okay.

    25. EF

      Yeah.

    26. SF

      Yeah.

    27. EF

      We're protective of each other-

    28. SF

      That's not okay

    29. EF

      ... and other people, for sure.

  11. 42:59 – 55:48

    Overthinking, people-pleasing, and removing hedging language (“just”)

    1. JF

      Yeah. I wanna offer, I wanna make sure we offer one more thing, and that is for, for people who are really struggling with the idea of feeling like they're big people pleasers-

    2. EF

      Hmm

    3. JF

      ... or feeling like they always have to have somebody like them-

    4. EF

      Yeah

    5. JF

      ... what mindset do y'all have, um, of, you know, what do you tell yourself when somebody is either Disagreeing or just don't feel like they like you at all? When you get in that people-pleasing mentality, what's, what, what comes to mind?

    6. SF

      You know, for so long I was like, "I don't care. I don't care," like blah, blah, blah. And it's like I kinda realized, like, it's cool to care. Like, I do care. I do want people to like me. I do want people to think I'm a good person, you know? I do want people to feel good around me. I wanna make people feel good. I think I used to find how, I used to find, like, this, like, it was like this weird kink where I got off on, like, not caring and this whole narrative of whatever. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but-

    7. JF

      Yeah, that became... Yeah

    8. EF

      Well, I think Sara's coming from the opposite pos- position where she so has never been a people pleaser that sh- now she's learning it's okay sometimes-

    9. JF

      [laughs]

    10. EF

      ... to consider how you're affecting people and-

    11. SF

      I, yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, like, it's okay to be a people pleaser. I think this narrative of, like, being a people pleaser is bad. I think-

    12. JF

      The-

    13. SF

      ... there's a, I think it is okay to wanna be the kind of person that pleases people. It doesn't mean at-

    14. JF

      Sure

    15. SF

      ... at the expense of your own happiness or at the expense of your, your nervous s-

    16. JF

      Yeah

    17. SF

      ... you know, your nervous system or-

    18. EF

      Yeah, like everything within reason

    19. SF

      ... everything within reason.

    20. JF

      For sure.

    21. SF

      But I think we gotta flip it a little bit because it's not a bad thing-

    22. JF

      Mm

    23. SF

      ... to wanna please people and make people feel good.

    24. JF

      Yeah. I s- I've tried to say that it's okay to be a, it's okay to, um, try to please people as long as you're one of them, you know?

    25. SF

      Yes.

    26. JF

      Uh, you just, you also have to be-

    27. SF

      That's such a good line

    28. JF

      ... [laughs] part of that.

    29. SF

      Yeah.

    30. JF

      It's okay to wanna please people.

  12. 55:48 – 1:05:12

    How to disagree without escalating: praise, ‘yeah-but’ habits, and better question types

    1. SF

      And are there hot button issues that you have to, like, take a deep breath and remind yourself to not get into an argument?

    2. JF

      It's usually w- I have a really hard time, um, not so much, like, big cultural issues. It's when I see, see something that I don't agree with. Like, I was... This was last week. I was at a doctor's office, and there was a mother who was speaking very harshly to her-

    3. SF

      Mm

    4. JF

      ... like, four-year-old daughter.

    5. SF

      Oh, no.

    6. JF

      I mean-

    7. SF

      By the way-

    8. JF

      Ugly

    9. SF

      ... I, I wouldn't sit there. I, I'd say something. That's who I am.

    10. JF

      Yeah. Well-

    11. SF

      Ugh

    12. JF

      ... it, it was, it was, it was like I was having to tell myself, "If she says one more thing-

    13. SF

      Ugh

    14. JF

      ... I am absolutely willing-

    15. SF

      Yeah

    16. JF

      ... to be, to be the voice-

    17. SF

      Yeah

    18. JF

      ... of the opposing party."

    19. SF

      Yeah.

    20. JF

      Um-

    21. SF

      Ooh

    22. JF

      ... and, and that was a really, because she was... This girl was obviously, she had a cold, you know?

    23. SF

      Oh.

    24. JF

      And she's, it, she's u- uh, the mom's using cuss words.

    25. SF

      Oh.

    26. JF

      You know, "Here. Here's the phone. Give me m- you sneezed on my phone." Like, just ugliness, okay? And-

    27. SF

      To a baby? A four-year-olds who is, has absolutely-

    28. JF

      She, uh, yeah.

    29. SF

      Oh my God.

    30. JF

      She was-

Episode duration: 1:05:13

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