Why "Winning" An Argument Actually Destroys Your Relationships | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 0:43

   Small-town roots and a five-generation law legacy

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      I am a fifth generation trial attorney. I grew up in a small town in southeast Texas. In fact, I still live in that small town, uh, where we have biggest store is the Walmart. That services probably eight different towns, and we have a Chili's. [laughs]

   2. SPSpeaker0:16

      [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker0:16

      [laughs]

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:16

      And so that's, that's really where we're at. And I, um, I'm the oldest of four, so I grew up here. I rode the bus. You know what I mean? Like, I, I, g- I, I walked, I walked home, uh, from the stop sign that was probably a half a mi- it, it felt like half a mile. It probably wasn't that long, but, um... Look at me. I'm already sounding like my dad.

   5. SPSpeaker0:40

      [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:40

      So anyway, I, um-

   7. SPSpeaker0:41

      Barefoot in the snow, both directions.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:42

      Yeah. Yeah, I know.

   9. SPSpeaker0:43

      Uphill.

2. 0:43 – 1:29

   Growing up around depositions and courtrooms

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:43

      All of a sudden, yeah, I need to make it really cold and miserable. So yeah, my dad's an attorney. His dad's an attorney. So I grew up around law. Where some kids got picked up, you know, taken to a playground after school or home, a lot of the times I got picked up and dropped to my dad's deposition.

   2. SPSpeaker0:58

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:58

      Where he would finish his deposition because my mom couldn't pick me up. My dad did whatever the schedule was. They didn't want me to be home alone for whatever that... This was before they just left me at home. And I would just listen to the rest of his, his deposition while I'm doodling on a yellow notepad. And then it got to me watching his trials and courtrooms, uh, and closing arguments. And that developed a lot of, uh, in my life, what I saw, and how I saw

3. 1:29 – 2:00

   Parents’ communication styles and early influences

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:29

      arguments, and how I saw him be v- very much the, um, someone who is more of a diplomat in conversations. My dad is not somebody who's very quick to anger, and I'm... I have a lot of that same personality. My mother is extremely kind, and I loved being the big brother. Loved being the oldest of, of four. Still do. There's 11 years difference between me and my youngest brother, Jacob. And, you know, I, I, after college, law school, um,

4. 2:00 – 2:35

   From law-firm partner to starting his own practice

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

      my, my wife's my high school sweetheart, and we have this, um, world now where, you go, "H- how in the world did he get started in these videos?" Well, I had been working at a law firm for close to 10 years. I had made partner there. Mind you, this is the same law firm where my dad was. I had a lot of different offers at different law firms. I really liked his, his firm. I still consider his firm one of the, the most prestigious in, in our area, and I wanted to do my own thing. Probably a lot of it was I'm, you know, mid-20s. I think I can do everything better, know everything better.

   2. SPSpeaker2:35

      [laughs]

5. 2:35 – 4:03

   Why he pivoted from legal advice content to communication coaching

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:35

      And if I was in charge, it'd all run differently kind of thing. Um, but a lot of it, I just felt creatively s- stale, and so I thought, "Well, I wanna do my own thing." And when I started my law firm, this was... That was beginning of 2022. At the same time, I thought, "Well, I guess I ought to be on social media. I mean, that's probably a good place to start. Well, how do I do it?" I Googled so many things. And I first started talking about how to, what to do after a car accident, talking about legal things in, in my videos. And then I thought, "Well, this doesn't feel very good. Uh, it really doesn't feel very good. I'm just selling myself." And by the way, not everybody needs a personal injury attorney.

   2. SPSpeaker3:21

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:21

      You know? I, I mean, most people don't. I mean, [laughs] who, who needs one until you're hurt? And so I thought, "Well, what's, what's my... What do I want my legacy to be? What do I want my kids to remember?" And I thought, "Well, I'll tell people what I know I know better than anybody in my world, what I can share," and that's how to communicate better, how to help their arguments, how to help them communicate. And I started my lessons, my little videos in my car by myself on how to, how to argue like a lawyer, part one. And then after that, it just started slowly taking off and taking off. And, uh, I'm still learning lessons every day. I, I still don't really know what I'm doing, figuring it out.

6. 4:03 – 6:31

   What came from observation vs. learned practice

   1. SPSpeaker4:03

      How much of what you teach and talk about and sort of your whole philosophy of communication did you pick up by osmosis? In other words, did you-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher4:13

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker4:14

      ... observe your dad and your grandfather doing these things like taking a breath, doing a body scan-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:21

      Mm-hmm

   5. SPSpeaker4:21

      ... doing the small talk thing? Or, or is that something that you sort of distilled from watching them?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher4:27

      A lot of that is not them. Yeah, I, I would say the breath for sure is my dad. They just hadn't put it in that kind of form. My grandfather is very different than my dad.

   7. SPSpeaker4:37

      Hmm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher4:37

      My dad takes after his mother, who is much more thoughtful. My grandfather is quick to rise, and, um, he's hilarious, but he's a wonderful storyteller, probably the best storyteller I've, I've ever been around in my life and, and probably ever will be.

   9. SPSpeaker4:55

      You're pretty good yourself.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher4:56

       And... No, thank you. But he's, he, he is just... I, I'll never for- forget when I... The day I was married, uh, we had, uh, all the guys sort of together, and my grandfather's just holding court. I mean, he's just... He has all these-

   11. SPSpeaker5:08

       [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher5:08

       ... young guys and my groomsmen, they're just enraptured by his stories. He's, has hunting stories for days.

   13. SPSpeaker5:13

       [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher5:14

       And so, um, they're all just enthralled.

   15. SPSpeaker5:16

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher5:17

       They're like, "This guy's your grandfather?" I was like, "Yeah." Um, anyway, the question is, how did I get this approach? How did I learn a lot of this stuff? To me, it's, it's... One, I understand it's a gift, and it's truly my, my joy, my blessing to share it. Um, it's something that I believe my parents prayed for. I will always credit that. Two, I, I have parents that were very intentional in how they handled communication with me, and I would say, too, of... I learned at a very early age, I'm the typical prototype oldest, the firstborn, the heavy responsibilities, grow up very quickly type.

   17. SPSpeaker5:58

       We were, too.

   18. SPSpeaker5:59

       Yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher5:59

       Became responsi- Yeah, there you go.

   20. SPSpeaker6:00

       [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher6:01

       So, like, when I'm 16, I'm driving all of my siblings to school. I ... have my youngest brother's spelling words, going over those with him-

   22. SPSpeaker6:11

       [laughs]

   23. JFJefferson Fisher6:11

       ... asking my younger brother, did he finish his reading assignment, helping Sarah get her backpack together. Like, this... I am, like... I might as well have had a minivan-

   24. SPSpeaker6:21

       [laughs]

   25. JFJefferson Fisher6:21

       ... um, full of everything, dropping all of my children off.

   26. SPSpeaker6:24

       I did have a minivan, so yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher6:26

       Yeah. Okay.

   28. SPSpeaker6:27

       Yeah.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher6:27

       Well, then, there you go.

   30. SPSpeaker6:28

       [laughs]
7. 6:31 – 6:56

   From proving yourself to grounded confidence

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:31

      So I, I inherited the family's '96. But I loved it. I loved it. And so a lot of the, the stuff I talk about in the book, first part of the book, the small talks, the scans, the... A lot of that's my own thing that I found and grew and learned in the early part of my career-

   2. SPSpeaker6:50

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:50

      ... that helped transform me from someone who is trying to prove everything, prove myself-

   4. SPSpeaker6:56

      Yeah

8. 6:56 – 8:58

   Why ‘win every argument’ is a trap in real life

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:56

      ... prove this, prove that, prove that, that turned into the, "No, I know who I am. No, I, I know what it..." The respect will come later. You don't have to prove it right now. You just continue to be consistent. You continue to be disciplined, and that's where a lot of those things came from. The never-won-an-argument mindset is something I believe so strongly in because I have seen the opposite turn out to be false every single time, where you always set out to win. And there are, are books that are titled, Win Every Argument. There are blogs, How to Win Every Argument. And I would read those and just shake my head because I just see that as such just snake oil salesman, just this, how could you possibly try and teach this to people? Because that's just not real life. It's not real life. Um, even as an attorney, people say, "Look, you should... Don't you win every argument?" No, absolutely not. Um, it, it's, it's, it's... N- nothing's in a vacuum. As an attorney, I don't really win arguments. I, I have facts. I can't, I can't choose my own facts, that when a client comes in, they have to give me what, what the problem is, a- and I have to run with that. I gotta play the cards that are dealt. Same thing with the law. I can't change the law. I can't choose which law applies. It's not like you get a, a choice, A, B, C, D, all the above. Like, there's n- you are confined to a set of parameters, and you have to do what you can do best, which is advocate for your client based on the parameters that are set. And you have a judge, you have a court reporter, you have a bailiff, you have opposing counsel, and you have 12 jurors, or maybe six if you're in a county court, and it's up to them, the decision-makers, to apply what you give to the law under the rules of evidence to come to a decision, period. You see how many layers there are?

   2. SPSpeaker8:58

      Mm-hmm.

9. 8:58 – 10:47

   Courtroom persuasion: it’s less about words, more about relatability

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

      It's not just what I say. Now, I will say there's a huge power in the influence I have over a jury, and it has little to do with what I say, but it has almost everything to do with how I make them feel, how I ex- uh, how I carry myself, how I, my client carries him or herself. It is all this micro details. It's not this big... The person who comes in and is grandiose, just slinging, thinking they're everything, they're the one that's going to lose almost every, every time. The person who thinks that they have it all prepared, the person who comes in with the shiny s- uh, you know, the fancy suit, Rolex, shiniest shoes you've ever seen, they came in in their Mercedes, I'll show you that's an attorney who will lose, uh, because it's not relatable to a jury. Never is. In fact, I'll even tell you this. Some of the best trial attorneys that I've seen, of course, they make lots of money, um, but they also don't go to court in that vehicle. They have other vehicles that are old in use that they keep, they've had their whole life. This is, like, the vehicle they had-

   2. SPSpeaker10:03

      That's hilarious

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:03

      ... when they first started out, because they don't want the jury to see it, and so they won't wear their fanciest stuff. They won't drive the fancy- uh, wear all their fancy stuff. They will be as normal as they can possibly be because that is relatable. Um, so it's, it's funny how even when you pull into that parking lot in front of the courtroom, you are, you are on display at all times. And so the jurors will watch every move that you make.

   4. SPSpeaker10:30

      So why do you say never win an argument? 'Cause that, that's kinda like all of us fantasize. You know, five minutes after we've had the argument, we're, like, thinking through what we should have said or what we could have said-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:42

      Right

   6. SPSpeaker10:42

      ... which, by the way, goes to the title of the book. But-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher10:45

      Yeah

   8. SPSpeaker10:45

      ... yeah, just back that up a little bit.

10. 10:47 – 12:06

    The cost of ‘winning’: you lose trust, respect, and eventually the relationship

    1. JFJefferson Fisher10:47

       The question is, do you always wanna win an argument? When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship. Like, if you only see it as something to win, that means you're going to lose a lot more. Let's ask the question of what have you won? Okay, I said the thing that hurts you. I said the one thing that took it too far. Now you're leaving the room. Now you wanna hang up the phone. Now you're the one who's upset, and I'm the one left standing there alone. What have you... Congrats. What did, what did, what have you got?

    2. SPSpeaker11:18

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher11:18

       Now you've, you've most likely won to be the first to apologize, really. That's, that's what you've won.

    4. SPSpeaker11:25

       [laughs] That's so true.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher11:26

       In, in relationships especially, like, uh, married, you've won to be the first to apologize, the one who's the last o-

    6. SPSpeaker11:33

       Yeah

    7. JFJefferson Fisher11:33

       ... the one who says-

    8. SPSpeaker11:34

       100%

    9. JFJefferson Fisher11:34

       ... the thing the last, who has to say... who has to be the last one to get the word. You're first up to apologize. Congrats. Swing away. Like, i- it is just this mentality that we have to have of being competitive in conversation and heated arguments wh- where that's just, that's... You will lose that. You're gonna lose their respect. You're gonna lose their trust, and over time, you're gonna lose the relationship. I mean, who, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right? And who... That, that is somebody who is lonely.

    10. SPSpeaker12:06

        Mm-hmm.

11. 12:06 – 13:17

    Arguments as knots: shifting from winning to unraveling

    1. JFJefferson Fisher12:06

       And that is somebody who will eventually isolate themselves out because nobody's gonna wanna be around that person. What I teach, and the, the whole thesis of this book, is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, meaning we, we... You're gonna take the loose ends. Like, if I have There's a direct string between me and y'all, and I'm saying, "No, you have to go my way," and you're saying, "No, you have to go my way." Well, all that knot does is it gets tighter and tighter, and the harder we pull and the longer we pull, the harder it becomes to undo, the harder it becomes to unravel. And sometimes it takes all day to unravel it. Maybe it takes a week before emotions die down and you're willing to look at it, or sometimes, you know what? It's, it's over a year. Some people haven't spoken to their adult child or their parent in whatever it is, and it happens to the closest of people.

    2. SPSpeaker13:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher13:03

       They haven't spoken in years because of how tight they made that knot, and so that's that. The quicker you are to apologize, the quicker you are to, to start seeing where they're coming from, that, that knot never tightens.

12. 13:17 – 16:25

    Persuasion without domination: cooperation, respect, and ‘coordinated dance’

    1. SPSpeaker13:17

       Okay, Jefferson, I have to play devil's advocate for a second. So there are times that you want to persuade someone. You know, maybe there's a lot at stake. Maybe there's something really important that needs to happen. Um, my husband and I are dealing with this right now in an extended family situation. But in a situation where you do wanna persuade somebody, it's not about winning per se, but you w- but you need to move them maybe for their own best interest. First of all, is that valid? Second of all, how is that different from, like, winning an argument, and do you help people learn how to be more persuasive but in a way that ultimately is good for a relationship?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher13:59

       Great question. Winning has to do with I'm the last one standing, and you know I have won. That's very different from we need to take action, and I need your cooperation, or I need you to understand, and I need to connect with you on the action that's going to be taken. Winning says, "I have no respect really for your feelings. I have no respect for, uh, your point of view. I'm willing to say whatever it takes for you to go away." That... As you know, that has the, the fight or flight. It's the... It's this mindset of I am going to be the king of the, the rock, whatever it is, the king of the mountain, the king of the hill, the person that's left here. I'm the one that is right. You're the one that is wrong. Got it? That's, that's winning. Um, the mindset of we have a choice to make, and either you're gonna be with me on this choice or you're not. Either way, it's gonna be fine with me. I'm still gonna respect you. I'm still gonna understand you. I'm still gonna hear your opinion. Like, my dad would put it to me this way growing up. If I disagreed with something, um, uh, let's say I'm 17, a lot of things I think I know the way of the world, and I would disagree with what he'd say. Anytime I would complain, he'd say, "Well, you don't have to like it. You just gotta understand it." I mean, it, it would be his, like, way of telling me, you know, "Hey, you... Feel free to disagree. This is what we're gonna do." [laughs]

    3. SPSpeaker15:30

       [laughs]

    4. JFJefferson Fisher15:30

       Um, and, [laughs] and so it, it was such a good lesson. Now, I didn't appreciate it, I can promise you that, but it, I... Now I have the, the, the hindsight of saying, uh, he, he gave me the freedom to disagree, and it took all the fight out of it. It was, "I'm giving you a chance to connect with me. I'm giving you a chance to understand where we're going," and that's, that's the key with connection, is you can... I can still d- disagree with you and still connect with you. I can still, I can still be unhappy, I can still be mad at you, and still connect with you. So if you need to come to a mutual decision on something, that's very different. That is more of a coordinated dance-

    5. SPSpeaker16:12

       Hmm

    6. JFJefferson Fisher16:12

       ... um, where there is going to be an exit from this.

    7. SPSpeaker16:17

       If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you want to see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 16:26