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The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Why You Overthink Every Conversation After It Ends ft. Shadé Zahrai

There’s a voice in your head—and it’s shaping more of your life than you realize. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Shadé Zahrai to break down the real science behind self-doubt, where it comes from, and why it shows up strongest after your conversations—not before them. We walk through the four hidden “voices” driving your inner critic and how to separate from them so they stop running the show. If you’ve ever replayed a conversation in your head or felt like you’re not enough, this episode gives you the tools to change that. Buy her book Big Trust: Rewire Self-Doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success: https://www.shadezahrai.com/bigtrust Take Shadé’s Doubt Profile Quiz: https://www.shadezahrai.com/doubtprofile Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/newsletter Thank you to our Sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. https://cozyearth.com/pages/jefferson ZocDoc. https://zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. Dose. Save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to dosedaily.co/JEFFERSON or entering JEFFERSON at checkout. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, today! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/book Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/topic Join my School of Communication. https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/membership Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jefferson_fisher Follow me on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justaskjefferson?lang=en Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffersonfisher/

Jefferson FisherhostDr. Shadé Zahraiguest
Apr 28, 20261h 4mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:13

    Self-doubt after you perform: why you become your own harshest critic

    1. JF

      Are you somebody who's ever struggled with self-doubt? I know I have. Today, I am talking with the one and only Dr. Shadé Zahrai, who's probably one of the loveliest humans you'll ever get to hear. Her book is titled Big Trust: Rewire Self-Doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success. This is a book you are going to want to get. You'll find the links down in the show notes. Today, we are talking all about self-doubt, the elements of it, what happens, and how to fix it, how to attack it, and how to live with it. It's an episode you're going to love. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I wanna go back to when we talk about what a lot of people listening don't understand what happens from the, what- whatever we call this space, creator, influencer, author, speaker, that you... We find some vein that we wanna plug into and go, "I like this. I like talking about this kind of stuff." And now we're at a place where you have a book, you do the podcast, you do the conversations, and especially after shows, podcast shows, or even speaking, right after it, there's this moment where, at least for me, I turn into the biggest critic of myself. And so I, I, I know you're gonna have a lot on this. What, what is the science behind being your own worst critic?

    2. SZ

      Ooh, where do we start? There's actually so much we could explore here. I think we need to acknowledge that any kind of doubt that we have, any kind of criticism that we experience, it's entirely natural.

    3. JF

      Mm.

    4. SZ

      It's entirely human. It's a function of the brain that is wired to try and keep us safe and protect us. But how that manifests in our modern day world is that we become hypercritical, and we attack ourselves, and we become our own worst enemy. And so those people who are able to still experience that, but then detach from that voice and still take action anyway, they're the ones who succeed. It's actually super fascinating. So I spent the last five years studying self-doubt, why we doubt ourselves, why we get self-critical.

    5. JF

      You got a PhD.

    6. SZ

      Oh, yes. Exactly.

    7. JF

      Yeah, yeah. Okay.

    8. SZ

      One of the hardest things I've ever done.

    9. JF

      A doctor now. Yeah.

    10. SZ

      Yes.

    11. JF

      Organizational behavior?

    12. SZ

      Organizational behavior.

    13. JF

      All right.

    14. SZ

      Exactly. So it's like the applied psychology within organizations and how it affects us at work-

    15. JF

      That's incredible

    16. SZ

      ... you know? Yeah. Job performance, career satisfaction. And so what we found is that for a vast majority of people, so I'm talking about 95% of people, we all have self-doubt. We have that inner critical voice. But not everyone suffers intensely as a result of it. There is something they do differently, and what they do differently, in layman's terms, is they can detach from the voice. So basically, they know it's there. They maybe engage with it a little, but then they make either a conscious or a subconscious decision to go, "Okay, well, it's there, but it's not a verdict on who I am. I don't have to listen to it. What action can I take anyway? How do I positively distract myself? How do I do something different or learn from it to then get better next time?" So that's actually the main difference between those who succeed and those who really, really struggle.

    17. JF

      How interesting. Yeah, so-

    18. SZ

      It is

  2. 3:13 – 4:43

    Psychological separation: naming the inner critic to create distance from thoughts

    1. JF

      ... I, I... What I hear you saying is everybody has some amount of doubt. In, in fact, I'd say doubt is healthy. If you thought that everything you did was 100% perfect, that would be more of a, a bigger indicator of a problem. In my mind, I like to... I have these personalities, not that I'm saying I have some problem with pers- my personality. I have different-- When I have different thoughts, I try to give them a personality. Meaning, my critic, I sometimes will just call Greg.

    2. SZ

      Greg. Clever.

    3. JF

      Uh, and, like, if somebody is, you know, really happy, I, I, I might say Travis. Or, like, I might just... I'm, I'm inventing names, and I, they change. But it's, it's this ability that I try to do to, to detach from this is not... Greg, Greg is not all of me.

    4. SZ

      Mm. Mm.

    5. JF

      He's not all of Jefferson. It's sometimes. And then that way, you kind of be the director of your, these personalities. Like a, where you're trying to get feedback from all of them, and you're like, "That's a good point. All right, Greg. Yep, I, I agree. You could have done that better. Okay, what we got from the..."

    6. SZ

      Let's move along now.

    7. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. SZ

      Travis, what do you think about this?

    9. JF

      [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Do, do you think that's healthy?

    10. SZ

      100%. In fact, it tap- touches on something that's incredibly powerful in the literature, which is called psychological separation. You are separating from your thoughts. It's also called cognitive diffusion, recognizing that you don't have to believe everything you think. And by having these names, you almost personify these voices, which then helps you create the separation. So okay-

    11. JF

      Mm

  3. 4:43 – 9:35

    The four inner-critic archetypes (plus a rarely admitted fifth)

    1. SZ

      ... here's what's very, very interesting. When we were researching, uh, we interviewed about 200 people to understand the nature of the voice that they hear. And so what we found is that there's not just one voice. There's not just one overarching inner critic.

    2. JF

      Like inner voice that they have.

    3. SZ

      Yes.

    4. JF

      Okay.

    5. SZ

      There were actually four different archetypes, four different personas that this voice would take on. There was, like, a Travis, a Greg, a Sarah, and a Samantha.

    6. JF

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    7. SZ

      Right? And so I wanted to understand, well, what are these profiles? What are these archetypes that people are hearing? So let me take you through them, and then you can tell me which one Travis was.

    8. JF

      Okay, I'm excited.

    9. SZ

      [laughs] And which one was Greg.

    10. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. SZ

      Okay.

    12. JF

      I'm telling them to-

    13. SZ

      So the first voice that we identified is, we call it the classic judge. It's the default voice that just judges you no matter what you did, what you didn't do, what you should have done. So this is... You know, if you're not sure which voice you have, it's generally going to be your classic judge.

    14. JF

      This is the, the judge is saying, "You should have done X."

    15. SZ

      Should have done X, or, "Why didn't you do Y?" Or, you know, "You're-

    16. JF

      Pre- yeah

    17. SZ

      ... you're worthless." It's just the constant voice.

    18. JF

      Whatever the choice you made is not the right one.

    19. SZ

      Exactly.

    20. JF

      Okay.

    21. SZ

      Classic judge. The second one, we call it the misguided protector. Now, the role of the misguided protector is to keep you safe, to keep you safe from the risk of failure, from judgment, from criticism.

    22. JF

      Mm.

    23. SZ

      And how it does that is by magnifying everything that could go wrong. "Oh, no, there's too much risk. Oh, no, this might happen, but that might happen. They might say this." And then naturally, your response to that ... is to not take action and stay safe

    24. JF

      In other words, this, this protector is looking at the things that could cause us harm more than the things that could bring us success

    25. SZ

      100%.

    26. JF

      Okay

    27. SZ

      That's its primary function, magnify everything that could go horrendously wrong and blow it out of proportion-

    28. JF

      Yeah

    29. SZ

      ... and then it succeeds when you do not take the step

    30. JF

      Yes

  4. 9:35 – 11:36

    How complaining and ‘why me’ thinking amplify threat and negativity loops

    1. SZ

      ... and says, "You know what? That's me." We call it the victimizer. This is that inner voice that leads you to blame other people, to constantly complain, to feel like life is so difficult for you and everyone else has it easier.

    2. JF

      Mm-hmm

    3. SZ

      And it's the why me voice.

    4. JF

      That's an exhausting voice.

    5. SZ

      It's an exhausting voice, not only for you, but for the people around you.

    6. JF

      Yeah

    7. SZ

      And then we don't realize that it keeps us stuck because when, interestingly, when we're in that state of why me, what we see when we're looking at brain scans is increased activity in the threat detection centers in the brain.

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm

    9. SZ

      So you're more aware of everything that could go wrong and what has gone wrong, and again, you're just feeding this because you're ruminating on it. And then when you complain, people also don't realize that when they complain, they are reliving a negative situation in vivid detail, which then activates the same parts of the brain, which then gears you towards negativity.

    10. JF

      Mm.

    11. SZ

      Complaining makes you more likely to become a negativity magnet.

    12. JF

      Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. Now, coming up is Mother's Day. That's a big deal for y'all. And if you might be somebody who might still be looking for a Mother's Day present, let me... Help me help you, all right? And that is this pajama set. All right? It's made out of bamboo. It's super soft. It's a two-piece set, and I can vouch for it because my mother, my mama, loves it, so much so that she texted me the other day, "Hey, uh, any chance they're running a sale on Mother's Day, or do you have another discount code?" I'm gonna make sure she's gonna get another pair, but I need to highlight for you the fact that she asked for another set of the same thing is all you need to know about these Cozy Earth pajamas. So if you're looking for somebody in your life, a mother perhaps, or a loved one who loves pajamas, go to cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson and get up to 20% off,

  5. 11:36 – 18:10

    Why overthinking hits after conversations: rumination, texts, and personalization

    1. JF

      and get ready for somebody else to text you in a year later asking for the very same pajamas. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for up to 20% off. Now, let's keep going. What I'm learning is it's easy to, in your mind, just start doubting yourself and, and just say, "Well, I, I'm, I have all this doubt." But what the research shows is that doubt, self-doubt, is actually comprised of certain types of personalities, and- On a given day at a baseline, there's a place where all of this is relatively okay and healthy. It's where one of them kind of gets out of sync, and you have too much of one, and that's the one you're listening to. And then all the rest, it just ki- feels like a jumble, right? Is, am I following?

    2. SZ

      Yeah.

    3. JF

      And do you f- find that when we're talking about self-doubt in particular, because, uh, obviously I like talking about communication, and the people listening are probably people talking about communication. Self-doubt for me always hits not before the conversation, but after the conversation. Because I can be so controlled of going into a conversation, and I have it with somebody. Maybe it's just that little interaction. Maybe it's a stranger who just sat by me, and I kind of tried to stir up a little bit of small talk, say hi, and they're not into it. And then what happens? Like, I just start attacking myself of, "Oh, you should have said this. Why'd you say that?"

    4. SZ

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JF

      Or, or-

    6. SZ

      Classic you. [laughs]

    7. JF

      Yeah, or, yeah, or exactly, the... And the, the person who is feeling like they overspoke, like they said too much. And so all of that is comprised in this, this self-doubt. Why do you think it happens more so after a conversation, like looking back at it, than sometimes ahead of it?

    8. SZ

      It's because when we look at how self-doubt is structured, so we often think it's just this one big blob of worry-

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm

    10. SZ

      ... and insecurity and fear. But we can actually tease it apart into four distinct areas, and once we know which area is at play, it helps us understand why we get stuck in that after we've had a conversation. And it, it's obviously, it's a conversation, but it's any time you've done something.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SZ

      You've taken an action. We then get stuck in that rumination. Let me take you through what the four dimensions of self-doubt are, and then we can look at what each of them would be saying to you after a conversation.

    13. JF

      Okay.

    14. SZ

      Okay, so the very first one relates to... So actually, you touched on something interesting. You said personality.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      What we know, looking at the research, is that self-doubt is actually linked to your personality. We never understood this before. It's linked to your personality because it's entirely about how you see yourself, how you see yourself, your self-image.

    17. JF

      Hmm.

    18. SZ

      And self-image, when we look at a lot of the self-image research, there are four distinct personality traits that combine to create how we see ourselves.

    19. JF

      Okay.

    20. SZ

      Which is, wow, there's a whole science behind this. It's not just some fluffy feelgood concept.

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. SZ

      So what our research looked to do is, okay, we've got those four personality traits. What are the parts of that that we can train and strengthen in ourselves? Because what's fascinating is that you can actually change a personality.

    23. JF

      My own personality?

    24. SZ

      Yeah. A lot of people think... I mean, let me ask you this. Would you think that your personality is just how it is, it's how it's always been, it was developed in the earliest years of your life, and that's just who you are?

    25. JF

      I feel like there is a, like, core. There's a nucleus. There's, like, a, a center. I can't believe I used the word nucleus.

    26. SZ

      [laughs]

    27. JF

      There's like [laughs] there is a, a center of what sprouts everything else. So there's, like, a seed of who, who am I? What's my personality? If, uh, w- what separates me? What separates my tree from the other person's tree? Like, they're not gonna grow the same. Uh, but I do know that there's things in life that happen that affects how I grow. Like, I think of, um, like we're in a place where there's lots of woods. If you have two trees growing together next to each other, they'll often, like, wrap around each other-

    28. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    29. JF

      ... and continue to grow, or they'll wrap around a branch. It's when you come in contact with something else, it affects how you grow. So I, I definitely agree that your personality, you have this baseline identity. But I know in my life, my personality certainly changed. Like, I'm not the same before I was a dad and after I was a dad. You know, you have a, you have dad feels. Like, I cry at every movie.

    30. SZ

      Aw. [laughs]

  6. 18:10 – 20:23

    The first self-trust pillar: Acceptance (self-esteem as worthiness beyond titles)

    1. SZ

      This first attribute is the attribute of acceptance. Self-acceptance

    2. JF

      Okay

    3. SZ

      ... accepting you. And that reflects, or that is the trainable part of self-esteem. Your self-esteem reflects to what extent you accept yourself as a worthy human being.

    4. JF

      I wanna go, I wanna pause that. So how would you define self-esteem?

    5. SZ

      Self-esteem is a personality trait-

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm

    7. SZ

      ... that fundamenti- fundamentally relates to the esteem in which you hold yourself. What does that mean?

    8. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SZ

      Do you see yourself as valuable, of value, worthy, despite learning and being messy and being imperfect? Do you fundamentally see yourself as worthy? A big part of it is worthiness.

    10. JF

      So for p- people who go, "I don't know if I have self-esteem," what they're really saying is, "I don't know if I have value. I, I don't, I question whether or not I have value."

    11. SZ

      And a good question to ask themselves to assess that is, who are you outside of your titles and your achievements?

    12. JF

      Ugh. Yeah

    13. SZ

      And the validation of other people. How do you fundamentally see yourself?

    14. JF

      Yeah

    15. SZ

      If you strip all of that away.

    16. JF

      Who am I if I, if I am not in this occupation? Who am I if I'm not a mom or a dad? Who am I if I'm not married? Who am I if I'm single? Who... It, it, like, it's the who am I if I'm not-

    17. SZ

      Mm

    18. JF

      ... in the present. I, I find that that is, that's hard for a lot of people, me included, because it's, it, it comes and goes. There's times where, like we've spoken about in this weird, weird world, you've, you and I have been friends for what, close to two years?

    19. SZ

      Yeah.

    20. JF

      Yeah. Of it's easy to kinda get in your head, and it becomes almost a, like a bad virus-

    21. SZ

      Oh, yeah

    22. JF

      ... where you feel like, "I gotta take, I gotta do something. I, I need a happy pill somehow to be able to get myself into this place." And what you're telling me is one of the best things you can do is get into this mindset of acceptance, where instead of here, it's, it's here, you know, being able to accept the present moment.

  7. 20:23 – 27:32

    Counterintuitive antidote to self-acceptance: ‘forget yourself’ through service

    1. SZ

      And the next question would be, well, how do you do that?

    2. JF

      Right

    3. SZ

      How do you accept yourself more? And so I go through, of course, I go through more of the detail in the book, but I wanna just give a top line for everyone listening and read- and watching so that if you resonate with this, you have something to take. When we look at how to fundamentally accept yourself, there are lots of little techniques and strategies, but I think it really comes down to something very counterintuitive, which is forgetting yourself. What does that mean?

    4. JF

      Yeah, tell me more.

    5. SZ

      That means forgetting that voice of ego, forgetting that I, me, my, how do people see me, how am I coming across, and actually finding little ways in your life to be of service to others.

    6. JF

      Mm.

    7. SZ

      In ... There are ways we can do this in every single environment, in every single interaction, with our parents, with our kids, with our friends, with the barista at the coffee shop. It's how do I just be here for that person? The moment you ask yourself that, you're shifting your attention away from you and onto someone else. And that in itself, by being of value, that's actually how we discover our true value, because we're living it. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody.

    8. JF

      Mm.

    9. SZ

      We're quietening that voice that is trying to get us to be selfish and to focus on... Because one way to think about it is when you are so hyper-focused on how do people see me, it's an extremely selfish perspective, because you are just looking at it from the I, me, my ego world.

    10. JF

      Yeah.

    11. SZ

      But when you flip into how can I be of value to this person, how can I give them what they need right now, you get out of that incessant rumination of the I, me, my, and then you move into this realm of self-acceptance, because you're no longer thinking about how to prove that you're acceptable.

    12. JF

      Right.

    13. SZ

      You're just living it.

    14. JF

      Man, you read my mind. I almost s- I, I kinda looked off for a second, 'cause I was thinking of, like, all the different times that even though you try and intentionally be, there's still so many moments and opportunities where I could have been other centered, like to be more service oriented to the other person. And I think about it always in terms of conversation, but sometimes it's the small little acts that aren't even really, uh, conversation. They, they might just be, like, a hello.

    15. SZ

      Mm.

    16. JF

      Like, I, I've noticed you do this. You had dinner with, uh, me and my family the other night, and you like to know everybody's name. I also think that's just some of your personality-

    17. SZ

      Maybe. [laughs]

    18. JF

      ... too. Yeah. But that's, that's a way of telling somebody, "Hey, I see you. I recognize you. I know you're not just generic waiter or waitress. You, you are," their name. And I think that's one way of, like you said, forgetting yourself. When, when I am able to be more concerned about the other person, it, then it's, that's in some way forgetting yourself. Do you, do you resonate with that?

    19. SZ

      Yes, 100%. It's just in that moment, how can I actively get out of my head and just be here for someone else, whatever that is. Asking what their name is.

    20. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. SZ

      Whether it's, you know, giving them a smile, making eye contact for a little bit longer, not checking your phone when something buzzes. These are just little things that you can start to train in you, and it helps you create that separation from that incessant need to get the validation from the people around you to make you feel better about yourself.

    22. JF

      Right.

    23. SZ

      Because if you can be that person that makes other people feel valued, the whole game changes.

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. SZ

      The whole game changes. So that's a really beaut- We call that one of the gifts. So for each of these four attributes, we have a gift, which is more of an overarching perspective shifting. We call them more spiritual idea, but it's just about-

    26. JF

      Mm-hmm

    27. SZ

      ... something bigger picture.

    28. JF

      Okay.

    29. SZ

      So that's our Kind of the antidote for self-acceptance if you struggle with it. But let's look at this from the context of conversations.

    30. JF

      All right.

  8. 27:32 – 31:21

    Feeling ‘too much’ = feeling ‘not enough’: how withdrawal breaks connection

    1. SZ

      ... if you struggle with the third attribute, which is autonomy, which we'll get to. So it can sound in any number of ways, but it's generally the, the voice of the first attribute is, "I'm not enough. I'm not worthy." And that can manifest in, "I don't wanna be too much for people."

    2. JF

      Ooh, that's a good one. I like that.

    3. SZ

      It's interesting, 'cause it's almost the inverse of that. It's, "I don't feel like I'm enough, and therefore-"

    4. JF

      Yeah

    5. SZ

      ... "I don't wanna be too much."

    6. JF

      I find that that's something that I sh- see a lot of in my community are, are people that not only don't feel like they're enough, they feel like they're too much.

    7. SZ

      Yeah.

    8. JF

      Too much for other people. Too much, I'm too much of a burden on others. And that too, I think, ultimately leads to that victim mindset. But tell me more of, you know, what do you, what do you say to the people who feel like they're too much?

    9. SZ

      So the first thing to, is to acknowledge if you feel like you're too much, it's because you feel like you're not enough deep down.

    10. JF

      Oh.

    11. SZ

      So the, the reason why you feel like you're too much is because you fundamentally don't feel worthy of people's time, of taking up their energy, of their attention. And again, that is a reflection of a lack of self-acceptance. When you don't see yourself as worthy, you feel like other people don't.

    12. JF

      Mm.

    13. SZ

      And then you feel like you're the constant burden. This can also lead people... Remember that f- the fourth voice, which was the neglector.

    14. JF

      Right.

    15. SZ

      This is where you hear that voice of, "You don't matter. Everyone else matters more than you." And so these people can often withdraw and not seek the help that they need, the support that they need, the friend that they need-

    16. JF

      Yeah

    17. SZ

      ... to share what's going on. In fact, quick little personal story. When I was in high school, my parents got divorced, and it was amicable, and it was the, you know, the best it could possibly be given the circumstances. But I, because I struggled with acceptance, I didn't wanna talk to anyone about it, because I didn't wanna burden them with my problems.

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SZ

      And so I became very reclusive in terms of sharing anything personal with anybody, to the point that by the time I got to work, I had a friend who I'd, you know, we'd been friends for a c- few years. She broke up with me, broke up with me as a friend-

    20. JF

      Yeah, as, as a friend. Yeah

    21. SZ

      ... saying, "I feel like I know nothing about you."

    22. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. SZ

      "So I don't feel like this is a friendship." And it's because I had learned not to burden people, because I never felt like I was worthy of burdening them with my problems, and so I was just internalizing it all.

    24. JF

      You'd be too much.

    25. SZ

      Completely too much. Not healthy. That was not healthy at all. The essence of connection is two-way. It's this, like, mutual disclosure. You share. I share. We support each other.

    26. JF

      Mm.

    27. SZ

      So that was an interesting learning for me, and that's a very real risk for anyone who struggles with acceptance.

    28. JF

      Before we keep going, this is a quick ad from Zocdoc. I don't know about you, but whenever you are generally in a new place or maybe you switch to a new job and you get a new health insurance, there's a whole thing of what doctor is going to be taking that insurance? Where should you go? Zocdoc is the place to make all of that easy. So if you're looking for a place like, "I need a new dentist," "I need a new dermatologist," and you have that appointment that you should have done a long time ago, Zocdoc is not only gonna help you find them, make sure that they're covered, they will actually help you also, yes, book an appointment. It is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. I've used Zocdoc because they actually will book stuff for you, and I need that. So it's not just, will they find something in-network? It will- they will actually book it, and that's, to me, totally worth it. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com/jefferson, zocdoc.com/jefferson. Let's keep going.

  9. 31:21 – 34:59

    Replacing rumination with learning loops: proof points, meeting strategies, postmortems

    1. SZ

      So the thing that you need to start with if you struggle with acceptance is acknowledge that this is a very deeply held belief that you have that is reflecting a personality trait, but you can change it, and it starts with very, very small actions that reaffirm that you are of value. What does that look like?

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. SZ

      Rather than holding back in the meeting because you're afraid that what you're gonna say is not going to sound perfect, just say it. Or, okay, you might-

    4. JF

      That's scary for people

    5. SZ

      ... Sorry, it's so hard for people. So then if, if th- saying it is too hard-

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm

    7. SZ

      ... pre-prepare something that you can say instead. In the back of your notebook or on your laptop, write a few questions that you can throw in at any time that you have read before, you've prepared them. That way, you don't have to think on the spot of what you're going to say and how you're going to construct a sentence.

    8. JF

      Yeah.

    9. SZ

      It's written. And another tip, we know from research that there is something called the primacy and the recency effects. So if you're in a meeting situation, if you say something near the beginning and then something again near the end, people are more likely to remember what you said and remember you contributing more than you actually did.

    10. JF

      Yes, that's-

    11. SZ

      So-

    12. JF

      I definitely know that to be... Uh, that's something that we talk about in litigation-

    13. SZ

      There you go

    14. JF

      ... in, in trial, that juries will often r-remember the first thing that happened and the very last thing that happened, and everything in the middle they kind of black out too. [laughs]

    15. SZ

      It happens.

    16. JF

      It's just easy.

    17. SZ

      Human nature.

    18. JF

      Yeah, it's easy, it's easy to kind of just get that jumbled. But they'll remember what they call the opening argument, what your first few sentences are, and then they'll remember the very end, what those last few lines are. Everything else-

    19. SZ

      It, like, puts so much pressure

    20. JF

      ... It really does. It, it can make-

    21. SZ

      Mm

    22. JF

      ... make a, a really big difference. But they'll remember the very first thing, the very last thing, so same, same thing in your questioning, too, I think. I think that's wonderful advice of people who feel like saying, speaking up in a meeting is too much or, or it would be too scary for them. Have written down already the comment that you wanna make, even if it's just one sentence or even if it's just one question. Because one way to lower that barrier is to eliminate the variables. Eliminate the things you can't control. And so to be able to offer that, I think, is what? A great way to- towards finding... Is it acceptance or is it something else?

    23. SZ

      So what you would be doing here is giving yourself proof points-

    24. JF

      Proof points. I like that

    25. SZ

      ... that you don't have to be perfect or have it all figured out-

    26. JF

      Mm-hmm

    27. SZ

      ... in order to contribute.

    28. JF

      Yeah.

    29. SZ

      And when you see yourself doing that, it starts to slowly... It, it takes time. You have to be doing this consistently-

    30. JF

      Sure

  10. 34:59 – 38:20

    Detaching from anxiety in real time: metacognition, ‘thanks but no thanks,’ and visuals

    1. JF

      ... zones. I wanna talk real quick on the, the benefit of detachment-

    2. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      ... of these personalities, these voices. So let's say voices and personalities are the same thing, represent the same thing. It's detaching the feeling from me, from Jefferson. So I experience that a lot personally with anxiety. Anxiety hit me probably two, three years ago for the very first time, like out of nowhere, scared me to death, had no clue, and I couldn't stop it. And over time, what I've been able to do, what's helped me overcome it, is I have a name, you know, for my anxiety, and I have a face to it. Like, this, the anxiety of Jefferson just looks super nerdy. Nerdier than I do, all right? So, like, I'm talking broken glasses, crazy hair, clothes are shuffled, and it's like if I can picture him talking in a voice of like, "But you need to do... You don't..." And he's starting to have that, that feeling, that sound of anxiety, it helps me to be like, "I appreciate that. I hear you. Let me hear from somebody else."

    4. SZ

      Brilliant.

    5. JF

      And so as long as I... [laughs] Or I might be like, "Thank you for your time. I need you to step out of, of the room for a second."

    6. SZ

      Go take a vacation.

    7. JF

      Yeah, let's close the door for a second, and be like, "Okay." But that has helped me a lot in terms of what does it really mean to detach from- I am not anxious. I just feel that-

    8. SZ

      Mm-hmm

    9. JF

      ... in this moment. D- do you find that when you speak to these leaders, 'cause I know you really focus a lot on executive leadership, and you speak to thousands of people all over the world, that this detachment is really a big unlock for a lot of people?

    10. SZ

      The biggest unlock. It's called psychological separation, and so what you do is actually so perfect because there is a very simple strategy, and it starts with acknowledging when any of these voices, when you hear them, which requires something called metacognition, which is becoming curious about your thinking. When you are not curious about your thinking, you feel like you are your thoughts, and you're not able-

    11. JF

      Ooh, that's a good way

    12. SZ

      ... to separate.

    13. JF

      You are your thoughts.

    14. SZ

      You are your thoughts.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. SZ

      And so, and that's when these voices become us. So it's not, "Oh, I'm hearing the anxiety." It's, "I am the anxiety," and it feels very s- fixed.

    17. JF

      That's terrible.

    18. SZ

      It's the worst.

    19. JF

      And then it just becomes a loop.

    20. SZ

      Completely. So what you can do in those moments, and you actually touched on it beautifully, is to recognize that these voices are actually designed to try and protect us from something.

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. SZ

      And so if you can just say, "Hey, thanks. I hear you." So we would encourage people to use the voices or to, to recognize which of the voices are driving it. So anxiety, if it's related to, "I haven't done enough. I need-

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm

    24. SZ

      ... to do more," that's the voice of the ringmaster.

    25. JF

      Hmm.

    26. SZ

      So you would say, "Hey, ringmaster. Thanks. I appreciate what you're doing, but no thanks. Like, I don't need you right now."

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. SZ

      So you're acknowledging and then consciously saying, "I don't need that," which creates a little bit of separation. We like to use the analogy of imagine you have a bat, and that voice, that ringmaster's voice, is coming towards you like the ball.

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SZ

      You basically say, "Thanks, but no thanks," and you whack the ball away.

  11. 38:20 – 44:35

    Positive distraction and the ‘worry time’ method (stimulus control for worry)

    1. SZ

      Now, that can be helpful in the moment. The other thing you need to do in the moment, though, is called positive distraction. So I... Let me give you an example. I had an experience kind of recently where something happened, and I kept ruminating about it, and it would happen whenever I was out walking because I sometimes try not to take any headphones, and I just like to be present.

    2. JF

      Yeah.

    3. SZ

      And then, of course, all the voices come in, and I kept ruminating about this thing, and I literally said to it, "Nope, classic judge, not today. Nope, not today."

    4. JF

      Yeah.

    5. SZ

      And I kept repeating that, and then I had to shift to something more productive. So they say distraction, you know, "Distraction is terrible. You should process all your thoughts when they come." No. According to the research, if you try and process everything as it happens, it can just feel overwhelming 'cause you're in the heat of that emotional moment.

    6. JF

      Hmm.

    7. SZ

      Sometimes a positive distraction is, "I'm going to call a friend. I'm going to put on a song that really gets my energy up." You can take an action in that moment to just shift your state, and then you come back to it later. I wanna share two very, very quick tools here for anyone listening who's saying-

    8. JF

      Let's hear them

    9. SZ

      ... "Oh, this is me."

    10. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. SZ

      The first one is if you tend to worry a lot and overthink a lot, there is a fantastic research-based strategy called stimulus control for worry. What does that mean? When that worry thought-

    12. JF

      Hmm

    13. SZ

      ... that rumination, that overthinking pops up during the day, write it down. Have a notebook and a pen, or put it in your phone. Just capture the thought. This in itself has been shown to reduce the intensity of the emotion 'cause you're giving it some kind of an outlet.

    14. JF

      W- write down the, the worry?

    15. SZ

      You write down the worry.

    16. JF

      Okay.

    17. SZ

      You actually write it down. So it could be, "I'm going to mess up my presentation tomorrow. I'm going to mess up the interview. My husband or wife is going to this or that," whatever it is.

    18. JF

      The podcast-

    19. SZ

      You write it down

    20. JF

      ... is gonna be terrible.

    21. SZ

      The podcast is gonna be terrible.

    22. JF

      [laughs]

    23. SZ

      Like, you write it down.

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. SZ

      And then you say, "Okay, I've got it captured. I'm going to worry about you during worry time." This is the second piece. Every day you set yourself maybe 10 minutes of worry time. You put it in your calendar, just not too close to bed 'cause it might affect your sleep.

    26. JF

      Right.

    27. SZ

      You put it in your calendar. When that time comes, you set an alarm for, say, 10 minutes. You pull out your worry list, and you allow yourself to worry. What research has shown-

    28. JF

      That's cool

    29. SZ

      ... is that it reduces the intensity of the worry. It shrinks the fear to size, and the emotional intensity of trying to worry about something after you've already written it down, you just can't get back to where it was, which is great because you realize how many of your worries are just that. They are just worries that are never going to actually come true-

    30. JF

      Yeah

  12. 44:35 – 47:32

    The Doubt Profile quiz + the four self-trust attributes (and why some tools backfire)

    1. JF

      And now let's keep going. I want everybody to know, you have in your book, Big Trust, which is fantastic, is you have this quiz that you can take.

    2. SZ

      Yes.

    3. JF

      I took your quiz.

    4. SZ

      You did.

    5. JF

      I did. I took your quiz and I sent it to you-

    6. SZ

      Yeah

    7. JF

      ... um, after dinner. I'm gonna pull it... Okay. Here's-

    8. SZ

      Oh, you actually printed it.

    9. JF

      Say what?

    10. SZ

      You actually printed it.

    11. JF

      I actually, believe it or not, I printed it in color.

    12. SZ

      Yeah, the colors are all off, though. [laughs]

    13. JF

      Hey, listen.

    14. SZ

      Hey, this is impressive.

    15. JF

      You know what? This is, this is about-

    16. SZ

      This is great. So what you've completed is your doubt profile.

    17. JF

      Right.

    18. SZ

      The doubt profile assessment. So you know how earlier I was talking about there are these four drivers of self-doubt?

    19. JF

      Yes.

    20. SZ

      And there are different attributes that we can strengthen, and when they're weak, that's when self-doubt creeps in.

    21. JF

      Right.

    22. SZ

      So far we've talked about a- the first attribute, which is acceptance.

    23. JF

      Okay, I'm with you. On the big trust side.

    24. SZ

      This is on the big trust side.

    25. JF

      Okay.

    26. SZ

      So when acceptance is low, that's when self-doubt sneaks in related to that attribute.

    27. JF

      Makes sense.

    28. SZ

      But then we have three others, which we will get to in more detail, but I'll quickly share what they are.

    29. JF

      Yes.

    30. SZ

      And actually, let me share what this quiz gives you. So if anyone listening or watching wants to find out how much doubt you experience in your life and what is driving that doubt based on which of these four attributes is weak, you can do this quiz. It's completely free. It's at doubtprofile.com.

  13. 47:32 – 50:08

    Defining the other three attributes: Agency, Autonomy, Adaptability

    1. SZ

      So acceptance is your first one. That's when you don't feel like you're enough.

    2. JF

      Right.

    3. SZ

      The second element of self-doubt relates specifically to the question of can I do it?

    4. JF

      Hmm.

    5. SZ

      Can I actually do this thing? So it's this view of do I have the skills and the capability-

    6. JF

      Capability

    7. SZ

      ... to, to do the thing. Now, in the context of conversations, this is really interesting because there are some people who also, in addition to maybe not feeling like they're enough, they doubt whether they have the words to coherently speak up in a meeting.

    8. JF

      Hmm.

    9. SZ

      Or people, a lot of people who are non-native English speakers who have an accent, they struggle with their agency because they feel like people don't understand them.

    10. JF

      Right.

    11. SZ

      Uh, you might have people who avoid addressing a conflict with their loved one at home. They don't want to bring it up because they don't feel like-

    12. JF

      Yeah

    13. SZ

      ... they have the words to deal with it. They don't have, we call this agency. They don't have agency in relation to addressing a conflict.

    14. JF

      Okay.

    15. SZ

      And it's purely because of that doubt that they then let things fester and not take action, and then things get worse.

    16. JF

      And that's the second one.

    17. SZ

      That's the second one, which is agency.

    18. JF

      Okay.

    19. SZ

      It's entirely related to, yeah, can I do this? Do I have the tools-

    20. JF

      Do I have the agency to do it

    21. SZ

      ... the ability? And even, can I learn how to do this?

    22. JF

      Hmm.

    23. SZ

      That's part of it as well. So that's the second one. The third driver is autonomy. This is where that fifth- Voice of self-criticism comes in, the victimizer. This is where we start to feel, "Why me? Why is life so difficult for me?" They complain all the time, they're resentful, they're frustrated. They blame everything and everyone for their problems. That's the third. We call it autonomy. It's when you don't feel like you have control in your life, in your relationships.

    24. JF

      Everything's hap- happening and you're left out.

    25. SZ

      Exactly.

    26. JF

      Okay.

    27. SZ

      And then the fourth relates to adaptability, which is specifically emotions. Can you get a handle on your emotions? Do you trust that you can navigate the emotions that come with life? Do you trust that, okay, if I have this conversation with my husband, my wife, my boyfriend, my girlfriend-

    28. JF

      Mm

    29. SZ

      ... and I'm raising something quite contentious here, or it could cause a conflict, do I trust that I'm gonna be able to handle the emotions that will come with it?

    30. JF

      Mm.

  14. 50:08 – 56:38

    Jefferson’s results: Big Trust overall, but Agency as the weak link (comparison + imposter undercurrent)

    1. JF

      Okay, here we go. This is where we learn where Jefferson's self-doubt is.

    2. SZ

      Yes.

    3. JF

      All right. I'm ready.

    4. SZ

      So let's actually explore-

    5. JF

      Okay

    6. SZ

      ... Jefferson's Doubt Profile. So firstly, the first measure that we get is doubt in his life. And Jefferson's ... So there's doubt heavy, which would be if you were really struggling with doubt. Situational, which is where it's kind of conditional depending on who you're-

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm

    8. SZ

      ... with and what you're doing. You actually fall in the big trust zone, which is what I would expect. Someone with your, uh, background, your caliber, what you've achieved, it's not hindering you.

    9. JF

      So d- I wanna make sure, uh, so what you're talking about is a spectrum.

    10. SZ

      Spectrum, yes.

    11. JF

      Of these four indicators help indicate [laughs] the spectrum of things.

    12. SZ

      Yeah.

    13. JF

      So one is, let's say, a lot of doubt, and the other is big trust.

    14. SZ

      Big trust.

    15. JF

      Okay, so I'm at least in the big trust category.

    16. SZ

      You're just in the big trust category.

    17. JF

      Yes. Okay.

    18. SZ

      You're just there. You just made it.

    19. JF

      Which means?

    20. SZ

      Which means, and this is where we need to then go a bit more granular and find out, well, let's look at each of these attributes within you and what is going on here. So your acceptance is in the hidden strength zone, which means it's not superpower zone. So superpower is where it's, like, the top that it could possibly be. Now, if anyone is at, at the top where it could possibly be, there's also a risk of excessive acceptance. What do you think happens when someone has excessive self-acceptance or excessive self-esteem? So it's no longer healthy. It's very, very, very strong, but it's not at healthy levels.

    21. JF

      Well, two ways I could see it go. So if somebody is, has, thinks everything they do is great, then they're probably ... Like, that should set some alarms that something's off.

    22. SZ

      Yeah.

    23. JF

      That, you know, you ... I think you have to have a healthy amount of doubt.

    24. SZ

      Yeah, 'cause otherwise you become conceited.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. SZ

      I am better than everybody else.

    27. JF

      Right.

    28. SZ

      So we, you know, when any- anyone is at the superpower zone, we start to interrogate and understand. But you're in the heal- hidden strength zone, which is great.

    29. JF

      Phew. Okay.

    30. SZ

      So that's a healthy zone.

  15. 56:38 – 1:00:37

    Building agency: essence-qualities worksheet + ‘pluralistic ignorance’ and progress spotlighting

    1. SZ

      ... that would probably m- yeah, that would be a problem, right? That would be excessive agency. So the fact that you have a degree of humility around recognizing that maybe there are other things that you could have done, or there are other people that could be where you are. So, I want, for anyone who is feeling this, anyone who feels a little bit like an imposter-

    2. JF

      Hmm

    3. SZ

      ... what I encourage you all to do is to grab a piece of paper and split it up into three columns. In your left column ... I love how you were, like, thinking about that, like visualizing-

    4. JF

      Yeah, I was, I was visualizing columns

    5. SZ

      ... the three [laughs] . Yeah

    6. JF

      ... I was like, okay, I got my paper. I'm visualizing in my head and writing it down.

    7. SZ

      In the left column, I want you to write down ... So Jefferson said, "Just be Jefferson," right? So that's the idea of what are your essence qualities? What are the things that you have developed over time? So I'm not talking about hard skills. I'm not talking about these tangible, like coding and ... I'm talking about the qualities-

    8. JF

      I wish I could code

    9. SZ

      ... that ... I wish I could code. Next, next one.

    10. JF

      I can, I can whittle sticks [laughs] as best as I got.

    11. SZ

      That's pretty good.

    12. JF

      Yeah.

    13. SZ

      So you write down your essence qualities, right? The grit, the persistence, the-

    14. JF

      Hmm

    15. SZ

      ... desire to be of service, the curiosity, the growth mindset. Write them all down. In your middle column, you wanna write down what are the things that you feel like you don't know how to do yet in your space, whatever it could be. And then in your third column, you're basically matching up your essence qualities with the things you don't know how to do yet. When we focus on all the things that we don't know how to do and how we have gaps, and we fixate there, it becomes a lot larger than it actually is. Because all we focus on is what we know how to do currently, what we don't know how to do, and then we feel like we can never do it. But when you remind yourself, "Hold on, I have these essence qualities that can help me learn, help me put things into practice, and help me actually fill the gaps that I see here," suddenly you realize that you don't have to have it all figured out.

    16. JF

      Hmm.

    17. SZ

      You just have to apply what you know, be Jefferson or be whoever you are, and then make a plan. And then take a step.

    18. JF

      So for the person listening right now, and the person feels like everybody else has it figured out and I don't, what do you, what do you say to them?

    19. SZ

      I'm gonna say that that has a term. [laughs]

    20. JF

      Of course, you ... That's one thing I love about Shadé.

    21. SZ

      [laughs] It's a term.

    22. JF

      Is that if there is something, there is some kind of term for it.

    23. SZ

      Well, was it molten lava anxiety?

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. SZ

      That was one term you came up with.

    26. JF

      Yeah.

    27. SZ

      That was a good one.

    28. JF

      Thank you.

    29. SZ

      This is called pluralistic ignorance.

    30. JF

      I knew it.

  16. 1:00:37 – 1:03:09

    What Big Trust sounds like—and how posture, voice, and repair language reinforce it

    1. JF

      Now that we've talked a lot about this, this element of big trust, what does big trust sound like?

    2. SZ

      It sounds like someone who is unapologetic about who they are. It sounds like someone who speaks with a calm certainty, even if they don't have all the answers.

    3. JF

      Hmm.

    4. SZ

      It sounds like someone not trying to prove themselves, but believing so deeply that they are of value and have value to share, that other people can't help but sense it and believe it too. And so if we look at tangibly what that looks like, they walk into a room as if they truly belong to be there, meaning their posture is raised, their gaze is out, their chin is up. Super interestingly, we hear a lot about- ... expansive postures. The importance of having an expansive posture and then you feel more confident. I wanted to understand what is it about the expansive posture that leads to those feelings of confidence. And I found there was one study that was published last year that found there is what's called a mediator, which means, like, that inner mechanism between the posture and the confidence.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SZ

      And it's the distance between your chin and your chest.

    7. JF

      Interesting.

    8. SZ

      That, it's called neck flexion. When you're slouching, when you're withdrawing, when you feel insecure, yeah, sure, sh- shoulders go, but it's actually also your head that drops.

    9. JF

      Interesting.

    10. SZ

      So if you can just think, "Okay, what is the distance between my chin and my chest, and how do I elongate it?" Not by looking at the ceiling, but in a natural state, you will naturally feel more empowered, and then you will na- there you go.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. SZ

      You just did it. And you will naturally convey more of that big trust energy that we're seeking. What's really interesting about that, when you show up like you belong, because of something called, [lips smack] it's called, there's this idea of enclothed cognition. But the idea is when you're showing up as the person you want to be-

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm

    14. SZ

      ... people then respond to that. They respond more positively to that. Which then makes you feel like, "Maybe I really do deserve this."

    15. JF

      Mm.

    16. SZ

      "Maybe I, I do have a voice that is valued." And then you show up more like that, and then they respond. So we almost create our environment based on how we choose to show up. And again, it's that posture, it's that voice, it's that eye contact. It's also if you mess up, just say, "Oh, let me try that again," or, "That came out funny. Let me rephrase that." So many people are s- I used to be, so afraid of making mistakes, that if you make a mistake, you just go silent. Just acknowledge it. You're human. There's so much... What I love about big trust is that [lips smack] it's not about being perfect. It's not about being flawless. It's about being human, recognizing that even though you're imperfect, you are still worthy, you are still capable, you are still powerful, and you can still handle anything that comes your way.

  17. 1:03:09 – 1:04:16

    A single conversation that changed Shadé’s life: ‘Why are you here?’

    1. JF

      So good. I'm gonna ask you a question that I ask, uh, every guest at the end, and it's this: What is one conversation that has changed the direction of your life?

    2. SZ

      When I worked in banking, I randomly sat next to someone, and as I do, I ask for their name and I like to get to know them. And after maybe a 30-minute conversation while we were doing work, he said to me, "Why are you here?" Now, I replied, "Oh, I just came to this floor because we're able to go." And he goes, "No, no, no. Why are you working in a company in this space? You should be doing bigger things." And I knew exactly what he was talking about, and it was almost like he unlocked the cage that allowed me to recognize, hey, I can have so much more value if I go off outside of this environment, outside of my job, which was, I don't know, in strategy or something at the time-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm

    4. SZ

      ... and actually create a life where I can be of service and remind myself constantly to self-forget. So that was Josh. His name was Josh. I owe Josh big time. I'm still in touch with him.

    5. JF

      Oh, cool.

    6. SZ

      That was my moment.

    7. JF

      That was it?

    8. SZ

      Yeah.

    9. JF

      That's awesome.

Episode duration: 1:04:17

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