Why You Overthink Every Conversation After It Ends ft. Shadé Zahrai

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 Are you somebody who's ever struggled with self-doubt? I know I have. Today, I am talking with the one and only Dr. Shadé Zahrai, who's probably one of the loveliest humans you'll ever get to hear. Her book is titled Big Trust: Rewire Self-Doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success. This is a book you are going to want to get. You'll find the links down in the show notes. Today, we are talking all about self-doubt, the elements of it, what happens, and how to fix it, how to attack it, and how to live with it. It's an episode you're going to love. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I wanna go back to when we talk about what a lot of people listening don't understand what happens from the, what- whatever we call this space, creator, influencer, author, speaker, that you... We find some vein that we wanna plug into and go, "I like this. I like talking about this kind of stuff." And now we're at a place where you have a book, you do the podcast, you do the conversations, and especially after shows, podcast shows, or even speaking, right after it, there's this moment where, at least for me, I turn into the biggest critic of myself. And so I, I, I know you're gonna have a lot on this. What, what is the science behind being your own worst critic?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:29 Ooh, where do we start? There's actually so much we could explore here. I think we need to acknowledge that any kind of doubt that we have, any kind of criticism that we experience, it's entirely natural.

Jefferson Fisher 1:40 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:40 It's entirely human. It's a function of the brain that is wired to try and keep us safe and protect us. But how that manifests in our modern day world is that we become hypercritical, and we attack ourselves, and we become our own worst enemy. And so those people who are able to still experience that, but then detach from that voice and still take action anyway, they're the ones who succeed. It's actually super fascinating. So I spent the last five years studying self-doubt, why we doubt ourselves, why we get self-critical.

Jefferson Fisher 2:10 You got a PhD.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:11 Oh, yes. Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 2:12 Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:12 One of the hardest things I've ever done.

Jefferson Fisher 2:13 A doctor now. Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:14 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 2:15 Organizational behavior?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:16 Organizational behavior.

Jefferson Fisher 2:17 All right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:17 Exactly. So it's like the applied psychology within organizations and how it affects us at work-

Jefferson Fisher 2:22 That's incredible

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 2:23 ... you know? Yeah. Job performance, career satisfaction. And so what we found is that for a vast majority of people, so I'm talking about 95% of people, we all have self-doubt. We have that inner critical voice. But not everyone suffers intensely as a result of it. There is something they do differently, and what they do differently, in layman's terms, is they can detach from the voice. So basically, they know it's there. They maybe engage with it a little, but then they make either a conscious or a subconscious decision to go, "Okay, well, it's there, but it's not a verdict on who I am. I don't have to listen to it. What action can I take anyway? How do I positively distract myself? How do I do something different or learn from it to then get better next time?" So that's actually the main difference between those who succeed and those who really, really struggle.

Jefferson Fisher 3:12 How interesting. Yeah, so-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 3:12 It is

Jefferson Fisher 3:13 ... I, I... What I hear you saying is everybody has some amount of doubt. In, in fact, I'd say doubt is healthy. If you thought that everything you did was 100% perfect, that would be more of a, a bigger indicator of a problem. In my mind, I like to... I have these personalities, not that I'm saying I have some problem with pers- my personality. I have different-- When I have different thoughts, I try to give them a personality. Meaning, my critic, I sometimes will just call Greg.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 3:47 Greg. Clever.

Jefferson Fisher 3:47 Uh, and, like, if somebody is, you know, really happy, I, I, I might say Travis. Or, like, I might just... I'm, I'm inventing names, and I, they change. But it's, it's this ability that I try to do to, to detach from this is not... Greg, Greg is not all of me.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:05 Mm. Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:06 He's not all of Jefferson. It's sometimes. And then that way, you kind of be the director of your, these personalities. Like a, where you're trying to get feedback from all of them, and you're like, "That's a good point. All right, Greg. Yep, I, I agree. You could have done that better. Okay, what we got from the..."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:20 Let's move along now.

Jefferson Fisher 4:21 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:21 Travis, what do you think about this?

Jefferson Fisher 4:22 [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Do, do you think that's healthy?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:24 100%. In fact, it tap- touches on something that's incredibly powerful in the literature, which is called psychological separation. You are separating from your thoughts. It's also called cognitive diffusion, recognizing that you don't have to believe everything you think. And by having these names, you almost personify these voices, which then helps you create the separation. So okay-

Jefferson Fisher 4:43 Mm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:43 ... here's what's very, very interesting. When we were researching, uh, we interviewed about 200 people to understand the nature of the voice that they hear. And so what we found is that there's not just one voice. There's not just one overarching inner critic.

Jefferson Fisher 4:58 Like inner voice that they have.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:59 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 4:59 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 4:59 There were actually four different archetypes, four different personas that this voice would take on. There was, like, a Travis, a Greg, a Sarah, and a Samantha.

Jefferson Fisher 5:07 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:08 Right? And so I wanted to understand, well, what are these profiles? What are these archetypes that people are hearing? So let me take you through them, and then you can tell me which one Travis was.

Jefferson Fisher 5:15 Okay, I'm excited.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:15 [laughs] And which one was Greg.

Jefferson Fisher 5:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:17 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 5:17 I'm telling them to-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:18 So the first voice that we identified is, we call it the classic judge. It's the default voice that just judges you no matter what you did, what you didn't do, what you should have done. So this is... You know, if you're not sure which voice you have, it's generally going to be your classic judge.

Jefferson Fisher 5:31 This is the, the judge is saying, "You should have done X."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:34 Should have done X, or, "Why didn't you do Y?" Or, you know, "You're-

Jefferson Fisher 5:37 Pre- yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:38 ... you're worthless." It's just the constant voice.

Jefferson Fisher 5:39 Whatever the choice you made is not the right one.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:40 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 5:41 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:42 Classic judge. The second one, we call it the misguided protector. Now, the role of the misguided protector is to keep you safe, to keep you safe from the risk of failure, from judgment, from criticism.

Jefferson Fisher 5:54 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 5:54 And how it does that is by magnifying everything that could go wrong. "Oh, no, there's too much risk. Oh, no, this might happen, but that might happen. They might say this." And then naturally, your response to that ... is to not take action and stay safe

Jefferson Fisher 6:08 In other words, this, this protector is looking at the things that could cause us harm more than the things that could bring us success

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:17 100%.

Jefferson Fisher 6:18 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:18 That's its primary function, magnify everything that could go horrendously wrong and blow it out of proportion-

Jefferson Fisher 6:26 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:26 ... and then it succeeds when you do not take the step

Jefferson Fisher 6:29 Yes

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:29 You're safe-

Jefferson Fisher 6:30 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:30 ... but you're stuck. You're stagnant. So that's the misguided protector.

Jefferson Fisher 6:34 All right

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:34 And that's what... It's very interesting. We find that a lot of people who are high potential but hold themselves back, they do that because they experience what's called the shrinking syndrome. So when they're about to step into something incredible or an opportunity arises, and they're so ready for it in terms of objective capability-

Jefferson Fisher 6:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 6:53 ... and skill, they make an excuse as to why it's not the right time or why they want to prepare a little bit more. They shrink themselves because the misguided protector is working overtime-

Jefferson Fisher 7:05 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:05 ... saying, "Oh, no, but if you get that, if you say yes to that, this might happen. You might fail. You might this, you might that."

Jefferson Fisher 7:11 The person who can't jump

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:12 And again... Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 7:13 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:13 So they're constantly hesitating. That's the second misguided protector. So we have classic judge, misguided protector.

Jefferson Fisher 7:18 All right

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:18 Let's go to the third, which is what we call the ringmaster.

Jefferson Fisher 7:22 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:22 Now, I'm going to guess, Jefferson, that you resonate with this.

Jefferson Fisher 7:26 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:26 I'm going to guess that a lot of highly driven people resonate with a very loud ringmaster.

Jefferson Fisher 7:32 Or, or just being in a circus as you maybe-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:34 Being in a circus [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 7:35 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:36 Well, so the idea of a ringmaster, I always vi- envisage it as having, like, the whip, right?

Jefferson Fisher 7:40 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:40 And it's wanting, uh, the, the-

Jefferson Fisher 7:42 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:42 ... troupe to drive faster-

Jefferson Fisher 7:43 Driving everything

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:44 ... and drive. So the role of the ringmaster or the voice of the ringmaster is the one that says, "You haven't done enough."

Jefferson Fisher 7:50 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 7:50 "You must keep pushing. You must keep moving. You don't deserve to take a break." And it is that voice that when you achieve something, you feel satisfied maybe for a moment-

Jefferson Fisher 8:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:02 ... but then before you know it, you're instantly thinking, "Okay, well, I don't feel like I'm enough yet. What's the next big goal?"

Jefferson Fisher 8:07 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:07 That's driven by the ringmaster, so nothing you do satisfies it.

Jefferson Fisher 8:10 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:11 Does that resonate at all?

Jefferson Fisher 8:12 A little bit

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:12 Maybe?

Jefferson Fisher 8:13 Maybe.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:13 We can debrief on that later.

Jefferson Fisher 8:14 What's the next one? [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:14 [laughs] And then, so that's our third. The fourth is what we call the neglector.

Jefferson Fisher 8:19 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:19 The neglector is the voice that is really common in anyone who is in a caring type role or anyone who is highly, you know, has a high degree of empathy. It's that voice that makes you feel like you must neglect yourself because everyone else is more important.

Jefferson Fisher 8:34 Is that the people-pleasing type of-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:35 The people-pleasing, the codependency, the, uh, deprioritizing your wants and needs. "So long as everyone else is happy, then I guess I'm acceptable."

Jefferson Fisher 8:45 That's where it's like, "I'm not good unless you're good."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:48 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 8:48 "I'm not, I'm not valuable unless you're valuable"-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:50 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 8:51 ... kind of thing.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:51 And, and what it leads people to do is sacrifice their opinions, sacrifice what they truly want-

Jefferson Fisher 8:58 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 8:58 ... because, again, if the people around them are happy, which means them often not doing and saying what they want or need, then they're keeping the peace. But then deep down, we know that that leads to this constant feeling of emptiness, and who am I, and am I even of value? And then we hear, "I'm not enough."

Jefferson Fisher 9:16 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:16 "I'm not worthy." So these are the four most common archetypes. Now, there is actually a fifth that I took out of the book because no one can really... well, very few people self-identify with this one.

Jefferson Fisher 9:27 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:27 And those who do have a high degree of self-awareness.

Jefferson Fisher 9:30 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:30 And so I'm gonna share it-

Jefferson Fisher 9:31 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:31 ... in case anyone listening or watching has that level of self-awareness-

Jefferson Fisher 9:35 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:35 ... and says, "You know what? That's me." We call it the victimizer. This is that inner voice that leads you to blame other people, to constantly complain, to feel like life is so difficult for you and everyone else has it easier.

Jefferson Fisher 9:49 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:50 And it's the why me voice.

Jefferson Fisher 9:52 That's an exhausting voice.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:54 It's an exhausting voice, not only for you, but for the people around you.

Jefferson Fisher 9:57 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 9:57 And then we don't realize that it keeps us stuck because when, interestingly, when we're in that state of why me, what we see when we're looking at brain scans is increased activity in the threat detection centers in the brain.

Jefferson Fisher 10:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 10:10 So you're more aware of everything that could go wrong and what has gone wrong, and again, you're just feeding this because you're ruminating on it. And then when you complain, people also don't realize that when they complain, they are reliving a negative situation in vivid detail, which then activates the same parts of the brain, which then gears you towards negativity.

Jefferson Fisher 10:31 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 10:31 Complaining makes you more likely to become a negativity magnet.

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Jefferson Fisher 11:36 and get ready for somebody else to text you in a year later asking for the very same pajamas. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for up to 20% off. Now, let's keep going. What I'm learning is it's easy to, in your mind, just start doubting yourself and, and just say, "Well, I, I'm, I have all this doubt." But what the research shows is that doubt, self-doubt, is actually comprised of certain types of personalities, and- On a given day at a baseline, there's a place where all of this is relatively okay and healthy. It's where one of them kind of gets out of sync, and you have too much of one, and that's the one you're listening to. And then all the rest, it just ki- feels like a jumble, right? Is, am I following?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 12:23 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 12:24 And do you f- find that when we're talking about self-doubt in particular, because, uh, obviously I like talking about communication, and the people listening are probably people talking about communication. Self-doubt for me always hits not before the conversation, but after the conversation. Because I can be so controlled of going into a conversation, and I have it with somebody. Maybe it's just that little interaction. Maybe it's a stranger who just sat by me, and I kind of tried to stir up a little bit of small talk, say hi, and they're not into it. And then what happens? Like, I just start attacking myself of, "Oh, you should have said this. Why'd you say that?"

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 13:05 Or, or-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 13:05 Classic you. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 13:06 Yeah, or, yeah, or exactly, the... And the, the person who is feeling like they overspoke, like they said too much. And so all of that is comprised in this, this self-doubt. Why do you think it happens more so after a conversation, like looking back at it, than sometimes ahead of it?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 13:26 It's because when we look at how self-doubt is structured, so we often think it's just this one big blob of worry-

Jefferson Fisher 13:32 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 13:32 ... and insecurity and fear. But we can actually tease it apart into four distinct areas, and once we know which area is at play, it helps us understand why we get stuck in that after we've had a conversation. And it, it's obviously, it's a conversation, but it's any time you've done something.

Jefferson Fisher 13:47 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 13:47 You've taken an action. We then get stuck in that rumination. Let me take you through what the four dimensions of self-doubt are, and then we can look at what each of them would be saying to you after a conversation.

Jefferson Fisher 13:59 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:00 Okay, so the very first one relates to... So actually, you touched on something interesting. You said personality.

Jefferson Fisher 14:07 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:07 What we know, looking at the research, is that self-doubt is actually linked to your personality. We never understood this before. It's linked to your personality because it's entirely about how you see yourself, how you see yourself, your self-image.

Jefferson Fisher 14:23 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:24 And self-image, when we look at a lot of the self-image research, there are four distinct personality traits that combine to create how we see ourselves.

Jefferson Fisher 14:32 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:32 Which is, wow, there's a whole science behind this. It's not just some fluffy feelgood concept.

Jefferson Fisher 14:36 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:36 So what our research looked to do is, okay, we've got those four personality traits. What are the parts of that that we can train and strengthen in ourselves? Because what's fascinating is that you can actually change a personality.

Jefferson Fisher 14:48 My own personality?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 14:48 Yeah. A lot of people think... I mean, let me ask you this. Would you think that your personality is just how it is, it's how it's always been, it was developed in the earliest years of your life, and that's just who you are?

Jefferson Fisher 14:59 I feel like there is a, like, core. There's a nucleus. There's, like, a, a center. I can't believe I used the word nucleus.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 15:09 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:09 There's like [laughs] there is a, a center of what sprouts everything else. So there's, like, a seed of who, who am I? What's my personality? If, uh, w- what separates me? What separates my tree from the other person's tree? Like, they're not gonna grow the same. Uh, but I do know that there's things in life that happen that affects how I grow. Like, I think of, um, like we're in a place where there's lots of woods. If you have two trees growing together next to each other, they'll often, like, wrap around each other-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 15:40 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 15:41 ... and continue to grow, or they'll wrap around a branch. It's when you come in contact with something else, it affects how you grow. So I, I definitely agree that your personality, you have this baseline identity. But I know in my life, my personality certainly changed. Like, I'm not the same before I was a dad and after I was a dad. You know, you have a, you have dad feels. Like, I cry at every movie.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:04 Aw. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 16:04 I never used to, I never used to do that until I had kids.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:07 So you're touching on something so poignant and so perfect here. For so long, people thought that we are just who we are.

Jefferson Fisher 16:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:14 Right? Personality is stable. And we would hear this response from people. You've probably heard it too, like, "Well, that's just who I am."

Jefferson Fisher 16:21 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:22 "I can't change. That's just who I am." And it's a terrible excuse for people to use, because it denies that we can fundamentally change. The brain can change. And what we know from personality research is that your personality can change in one of two ways. Either, as you said, there is this key life moment, becoming a parent. It could be a result of incredible trauma that you've experienced-

Jefferson Fisher 16:42 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:43 ... where you have that moment, and then you start, you know, your personality intertwines with that. But the other way is just by actively choosing to change a part of it.

Jefferson Fisher 16:52 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:52 You actively choose to intervene.

Jefferson Fisher 16:54 Acts of will.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:55 Acts of will, exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 16:56 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 16:56 And so when we look at self-doubt literature and research and all of this space, we can see that, okay, self-doubt is a reflection of how we see ourselves, which is, uh, related to our personality.

Jefferson Fisher 17:06 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:06 And there are these four parts of our personality. We then wanted to say, okay, if any of us wanted to change our personality related to how we see ourselves, what's the trainable part of that? And so we refer to it as the four A's-

Jefferson Fisher 17:20 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:20 ... of self-trust, which is w- the ultimate state we want to get to, trusting ourselves more than listening to that doubt.

Jefferson Fisher 17:26 Okay, so w- we've, we've spoke about the four elements and type of personalities of self-doubt. Now you're taking us to the four, like, mirror versions of that, of what we'd want for self-trust. That's where we want to be.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:41 Almost.

Jefferson Fisher 17:41 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:41 So the, the four voices... In fact, we didn't determine which one was Travis and Greg.

Jefferson Fisher 17:46 Oh, that's true. We, that's another episode.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:47 We can come back to that.

Jefferson Fisher 17:47 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:48 Another episode. Episode part two.

Jefferson Fisher 17:49 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:49 So those four voices actually relate to the first attribute of doubt.

Jefferson Fisher 17:54 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:55 So I, I mentioned five voices. Remember? The, the last one-

Jefferson Fisher 17:57 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:57 ... was the victimizer.

Jefferson Fisher 17:58 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 17:58 But just, we just look at the first four. They relate to the first attribute of, we call it self-doubt or self-trust, because when that attribute is strong, that's when you have more self-trust. When it's weak, you have more self-doubt.

Jefferson Fisher 18:10 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 18:10 This first attribute is the attribute of acceptance. Self-acceptance

Jefferson Fisher 18:14 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 18:14 ... accepting you. And that reflects, or that is the trainable part of self-esteem. Your self-esteem reflects to what extent you accept yourself as a worthy human being.

Jefferson Fisher 18:26 I wanna go, I wanna pause that. So how would you define self-esteem?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 18:34 Self-esteem is a personality trait-

Jefferson Fisher 18:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 18:36 ... that fundamenti- fundamentally relates to the esteem in which you hold yourself. What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 18:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 18:43 Do you see yourself as valuable, of value, worthy, despite learning and being messy and being imperfect? Do you fundamentally see yourself as worthy? A big part of it is worthiness.

Jefferson Fisher 18:55 So for p- people who go, "I don't know if I have self-esteem," what they're really saying is, "I don't know if I have value. I, I don't, I question whether or not I have value."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:04 And a good question to ask themselves to assess that is, who are you outside of your titles and your achievements?

Jefferson Fisher 19:13 Ugh. Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:14 And the validation of other people. How do you fundamentally see yourself?

Jefferson Fisher 19:18 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:18 If you strip all of that away.

Jefferson Fisher 19:20 Who am I if I, if I am not in this occupation? Who am I if I'm not a mom or a dad? Who am I if I'm not married? Who am I if I'm single? Who... It, it, like, it's the who am I if I'm not-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:33 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 19:33 ... in the present. I, I find that that is, that's hard for a lot of people, me included, because it's, it, it comes and goes. There's times where, like we've spoken about in this weird, weird world, you've, you and I have been friends for what, close to two years?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:50 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:50 Yeah. Of it's easy to kinda get in your head, and it becomes almost a, like a bad virus-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 19:59 Oh, yeah

Jefferson Fisher 20:00 ... where you feel like, "I gotta take, I gotta do something. I, I need a happy pill somehow to be able to get myself into this place." And what you're telling me is one of the best things you can do is get into this mindset of acceptance, where instead of here, it's, it's here, you know, being able to accept the present moment.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 20:23 And the next question would be, well, how do you do that?

Jefferson Fisher 20:25 Right

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 20:25 How do you accept yourself more? And so I go through, of course, I go through more of the detail in the book, but I wanna just give a top line for everyone listening and read- and watching so that if you resonate with this, you have something to take. When we look at how to fundamentally accept yourself, there are lots of little techniques and strategies, but I think it really comes down to something very counterintuitive, which is forgetting yourself. What does that mean?

Jefferson Fisher 20:53 Yeah, tell me more.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 20:54 That means forgetting that voice of ego, forgetting that I, me, my, how do people see me, how am I coming across, and actually finding little ways in your life to be of service to others.

Jefferson Fisher 21:08 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 21:09 In ... There are ways we can do this in every single environment, in every single interaction, with our parents, with our kids, with our friends, with the barista at the coffee shop. It's how do I just be here for that person? The moment you ask yourself that, you're shifting your attention away from you and onto someone else. And that in itself, by being of value, that's actually how we discover our true value, because we're living it. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody.

Jefferson Fisher 21:36 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 21:36 We're quietening that voice that is trying to get us to be selfish and to focus on... Because one way to think about it is when you are so hyper-focused on how do people see me, it's an extremely selfish perspective, because you are just looking at it from the I, me, my ego world.

Jefferson Fisher 21:53 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 21:54 But when you flip into how can I be of value to this person, how can I give them what they need right now, you get out of that incessant rumination of the I, me, my, and then you move into this realm of self-acceptance, because you're no longer thinking about how to prove that you're acceptable.

Jefferson Fisher 22:10 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 22:10 You're just living it.

Jefferson Fisher 22:12 Man, you read my mind. I almost s- I, I kinda looked off for a second, 'cause I was thinking of, like, all the different times that even though you try and intentionally be, there's still so many moments and opportunities where I could have been other centered, like to be more service oriented to the other person. And I think about it always in terms of conversation, but sometimes it's the small little acts that aren't even really, uh, conversation. They, they might just be, like, a hello.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 22:44 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 22:44 Like, I, I've noticed you do this. You had dinner with, uh, me and my family the other night, and you like to know everybody's name. I also think that's just some of your personality-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 22:55 Maybe. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 22:56 ... too. Yeah. But that's, that's a way of telling somebody, "Hey, I see you. I recognize you. I know you're not just generic waiter or waitress. You, you are," their name. And I think that's one way of, like you said, forgetting yourself. When, when I am able to be more concerned about the other person, it, then it's, that's in some way forgetting yourself. Do you, do you resonate with that?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 23:26 Yes, 100%. It's just in that moment, how can I actively get out of my head and just be here for someone else, whatever that is. Asking what their name is.

Jefferson Fisher 23:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 23:37 Whether it's, you know, giving them a smile, making eye contact for a little bit longer, not checking your phone when something buzzes. These are just little things that you can start to train in you, and it helps you create that separation from that incessant need to get the validation from the people around you to make you feel better about yourself.

Jefferson Fisher 23:55 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 23:55 Because if you can be that person that makes other people feel valued, the whole game changes.

Jefferson Fisher 24:00 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:01 The whole game changes. So that's a really beaut- We call that one of the gifts. So for each of these four attributes, we have a gift, which is more of an overarching perspective shifting. We call them more spiritual idea, but it's just about-

Jefferson Fisher 24:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:12 ... something bigger picture.

Jefferson Fisher 24:15 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:15 So that's our Kind of the antidote for self-acceptance if you struggle with it. But let's look at this from the context of conversations.

Jefferson Fisher 24:24 All right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:24 If someone doesn't accept themself, when they're interacting with, let's say, a loved one, that's when they become hyper attuned to, "Is this person okay with me?"

Jefferson Fisher 24:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:37 "Did I say something wrong? I've noticed a slight shift in their energy right now. Is that because of me?"

Jefferson Fisher 24:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:43 And so everything becomes personalized. We take everything personally. I say we because I am one of these people who struggle-

Jefferson Fisher 24:50 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 24:50 ... with self-acceptance. And so I'm constantly internalizing things that are not mine to be internalized. And that level of heightened awareness can also lead us to create the very things that we fear. We suddenly become a little clingy or a little overly concerned, and then that can push people away, when actually it was just they were going through something challenging that day. Or their mind-

Jefferson Fisher 25:10 Mm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:10 ... was elsewhere, and yet we're taking it as if it's us.

Jefferson Fisher 25:12 Taking it personal.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:13 Exactly. Personal. And I saw this in someone recently, a really good friend of mine. She was texting a friend, and then didn't hear back from that friend. She saw the friend read it, but didn't hear back from that friend for a few hours. And then she was debriefing with me and talking about how that friend clearly doesn't care about her-

Jefferson Fisher 25:30 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:30 ... and she's got other priorities. When we figured out what was going on, the friend's phone had just run out of battery.

Jefferson Fisher 25:37 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:37 Wasn't able to respond.

Jefferson Fisher 25:39 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:39 But of course, my other friend was going through all these internal stories, and that's what they are. They are internal stories that we tell about ourselves depending on where we're struggling on these attributes.

Jefferson Fisher 25:48 Yeah, there's so much that we could just even go into on how much we take things personally over text.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 25:56 Ugh.

Jefferson Fisher 25:56 Like, we, we read into other people's tone, and how much timing really does play a, a huge factor if you don't reply immediately versus if you do. Like, people... If, if pe- somebody's dating and somebody says something sweet, like, do you wait a moment? 'Cause you don't wanna be, like-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:14 [laughs] Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 26:15 ... too eager. But if you wait too long-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:17 Ball's in their court. They need to contact me first

Jefferson Fisher 26:18 ... Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 26:19 And then, then you really don't care. Um, or just like you were talking about with your friend, you know, if... The worst is, like, if you just see bubbles-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:27 Oh, yeah, and then nothing

Jefferson Fisher 26:27 ... and it's just waiting and then nothing. You're like, "They must really be thinking about what they're going to say. What did I do?" And then you're starting to-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:34 Internalize

Jefferson Fisher 26:35 ... Yeah, so this is all, this is all self-doubt, what we're talking about, and the antidote to this is what you're calling big trust, right? What I want to know and what I want the listeners to hear is what does self-doubt sound like, and then what does self trust sound like?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 26:58 Well, let's look at it in the context of the first attribute.

Jefferson Fisher 27:00 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:01 So the first attribute, if you have self-doubt related to your acceptance, it is, "I am not enough."

Jefferson Fisher 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:07 This is not often something that we would ever say out loud. This is more a deep belief that we would hold.

Jefferson Fisher 27:11 True.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:11 Right? "I'm not enough," or, "I'm not worthy."

Jefferson Fisher 27:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:14 Or... And then, you know, if we take that to the next level, it would be, "My friends don't care about me," or, "This person doesn't value me."

Jefferson Fisher 27:23 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:23 And, and then that becomes an automatic switch, and we have a compulsive need to try and win back their approval and their affections, because-

Jefferson Fisher 27:30 Or you go to the victim

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:31 ... or you turn into the victim-

Jefferson Fisher 27:32 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:32 ... if you struggle with the third attribute, which is autonomy, which we'll get to. So it can sound in any number of ways, but it's generally the, the voice of the first attribute is, "I'm not enough. I'm not worthy." And that can manifest in, "I don't wanna be too much for people."

Jefferson Fisher 27:47 Ooh, that's a good one. I like that.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:48 It's interesting, 'cause it's almost the inverse of that. It's, "I don't feel like I'm enough, and therefore-"

Jefferson Fisher 27:52 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 27:52 ... "I don't wanna be too much."

Jefferson Fisher 27:54 I find that that's something that I sh- see a lot of in my community are, are people that not only don't feel like they're enough, they feel like they're too much.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 28:05 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 28:05 Too much for other people. Too much, I'm too much of a burden on others. And that too, I think, ultimately leads to that victim mindset. But tell me more of, you know, what do you, what do you say to the people who feel like they're too much?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 28:20 So the first thing to, is to acknowledge if you feel like you're too much, it's because you feel like you're not enough deep down.

Jefferson Fisher 28:25 Oh.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 28:26 So the, the reason why you feel like you're too much is because you fundamentally don't feel worthy of people's time, of taking up their energy, of their attention. And again, that is a reflection of a lack of self-acceptance. When you don't see yourself as worthy, you feel like other people don't.

Jefferson Fisher 28:42 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 28:42 And then you feel like you're the constant burden. This can also lead people... Remember that f- the fourth voice, which was the neglector.

Jefferson Fisher 28:49 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 28:50 This is where you hear that voice of, "You don't matter. Everyone else matters more than you." And so these people can often withdraw and not seek the help that they need, the support that they need, the friend that they need-

Jefferson Fisher 29:04 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 29:04 ... to share what's going on. In fact, quick little personal story. When I was in high school, my parents got divorced, and it was amicable, and it was the, you know, the best it could possibly be given the circumstances. But I, because I struggled with acceptance, I didn't wanna talk to anyone about it, because I didn't wanna burden them with my problems.

Jefferson Fisher 29:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 29:24 And so I became very reclusive in terms of sharing anything personal with anybody, to the point that by the time I got to work, I had a friend who I'd, you know, we'd been friends for a c- few years. She broke up with me, broke up with me as a friend-

Jefferson Fisher 29:40 Yeah, as, as a friend. Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 29:40 ... saying, "I feel like I know nothing about you."

Jefferson Fisher 29:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 29:44 "So I don't feel like this is a friendship." And it's because I had learned not to burden people, because I never felt like I was worthy of burdening them with my problems, and so I was just internalizing it all.

Jefferson Fisher 29:54 You'd be too much.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 29:55 Completely too much. Not healthy. That was not healthy at all. The essence of connection is two-way. It's this, like, mutual disclosure. You share. I share. We support each other.

Jefferson Fisher 30:03 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 30:03 So that was an interesting learning for me, and that's a very real risk for anyone who struggles with acceptance.

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Dr. Shadé Zahrai 31:21 So the thing that you need to start with if you struggle with acceptance is acknowledge that this is a very deeply held belief that you have that is reflecting a personality trait, but you can change it, and it starts with very, very small actions that reaffirm that you are of value. What does that look like?

Jefferson Fisher 31:39 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 31:39 Rather than holding back in the meeting because you're afraid that what you're gonna say is not going to sound perfect, just say it. Or, okay, you might-

Jefferson Fisher 31:48 That's scary for people

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 31:48 ... Sorry, it's so hard for people. So then if, if th- saying it is too hard-

Jefferson Fisher 31:51 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 31:52 ... pre-prepare something that you can say instead. In the back of your notebook or on your laptop, write a few questions that you can throw in at any time that you have read before, you've prepared them. That way, you don't have to think on the spot of what you're going to say and how you're going to construct a sentence.

Jefferson Fisher 32:08 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:09 It's written. And another tip, we know from research that there is something called the primacy and the recency effects. So if you're in a meeting situation, if you say something near the beginning and then something again near the end, people are more likely to remember what you said and remember you contributing more than you actually did.

Jefferson Fisher 32:27 Yes, that's-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:28 So-

Jefferson Fisher 32:28 I definitely know that to be... Uh, that's something that we talk about in litigation-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:33 There you go

Jefferson Fisher 32:34 ... in, in trial, that juries will often r-remember the first thing that happened and the very last thing that happened, and everything in the middle they kind of black out too. [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:42 It happens.

Jefferson Fisher 32:42 It's just easy.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:42 Human nature.

Jefferson Fisher 32:43 Yeah, it's easy, it's easy to kind of just get that jumbled. But they'll remember what they call the opening argument, what your first few sentences are, and then they'll remember the very end, what those last few lines are. Everything else-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:55 It, like, puts so much pressure

Jefferson Fisher 32:57 ... It really does. It, it can make-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 32:58 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 32:58 ... make a, a really big difference. But they'll remember the very first thing, the very last thing, so same, same thing in your questioning, too, I think. I think that's wonderful advice of people who feel like saying, speaking up in a meeting is too much or, or it would be too scary for them. Have written down already the comment that you wanna make, even if it's just one sentence or even if it's just one question. Because one way to lower that barrier is to eliminate the variables. Eliminate the things you can't control. And so to be able to offer that, I think, is what? A great way to- towards finding... Is it acceptance or is it something else?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 33:39 So what you would be doing here is giving yourself proof points-

Jefferson Fisher 33:43 Proof points. I like that

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 33:44 ... that you don't have to be perfect or have it all figured out-

Jefferson Fisher 33:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 33:47 ... in order to contribute.

Jefferson Fisher 33:49 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 33:49 And when you see yourself doing that, it starts to slowly... It, it takes time. You have to be doing this consistently-

Jefferson Fisher 33:55 Sure

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 33:55 ... over time, but you start to slowly shift how you see yourself, your self-image. And then that allows you, once you get comfortable with that, you take the next step, which is, "Okay, so I'm comfortable with saying something at the beginning and the end. I'm going to construct a question in the middle or share an idea, a short one. Let me see how that goes." You use it as, like, a little experiment.

Jefferson Fisher 34:15 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 34:16 And then you do it, and then you reflect afterwards and you think... So what you might do if you struggle with acceptance is get stuck in that rumination. "Oh, I should've said this. I should've done it like this." And if you don't do anything to actively quieten that voice, it will just keep going, and you will wake up at 2:00 AM-

Jefferson Fisher 34:30 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 34:30 ... with it on repeat.

Jefferson Fisher 34:31 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 34:32 So what you say is, "Okay, what did I learn from that, and what will I do differently next time?" It's super simple. It's called a postmortem in the project management world. You look at what happened, and then you just essentially develop a plan to make sure that whatever went wrong doesn't go wrong again in the future, and you're continually gearing yourself towards learning and growth.

Jefferson Fisher 34:53 That's going t-towards the acts of will that we talked about instead of staying in the, the self-doubt-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 34:59 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 34:59 ... zones. I wanna talk real quick on the, the benefit of detachment-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 35:06 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 35:07 ... of these personalities, these voices. So let's say voices and personalities are the same thing, represent the same thing. It's detaching the feeling from me, from Jefferson. So I experience that a lot personally with anxiety. Anxiety hit me probably two, three years ago for the very first time, like out of nowhere, scared me to death, had no clue, and I couldn't stop it. And over time, what I've been able to do, what's helped me overcome it, is I have a name, you know, for my anxiety, and I have a face to it. Like, this, the anxiety of Jefferson just looks super nerdy. Nerdier than I do, all right? So, like, I'm talking broken glasses, crazy hair, clothes are shuffled, and it's like if I can picture him talking in a voice of like, "But you need to do... You don't..." And he's starting to have that, that feeling, that sound of anxiety, it helps me to be like, "I appreciate that. I hear you. Let me hear from somebody else."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 36:08 Brilliant.

Jefferson Fisher 36:08 And so as long as I... [laughs] Or I might be like, "Thank you for your time. I need you to step out of, of the room for a second."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 36:15 Go take a vacation.

Jefferson Fisher 36:16 Yeah, let's close the door for a second, and be like, "Okay." But that has helped me a lot in terms of what does it really mean to detach from- I am not anxious. I just feel that-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 36:26 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 36:27 ... in this moment. D- do you find that when you speak to these leaders, 'cause I know you really focus a lot on executive leadership, and you speak to thousands of people all over the world, that this detachment is really a big unlock for a lot of people?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 36:44 The biggest unlock. It's called psychological separation, and so what you do is actually so perfect because there is a very simple strategy, and it starts with acknowledging when any of these voices, when you hear them, which requires something called metacognition, which is becoming curious about your thinking. When you are not curious about your thinking, you feel like you are your thoughts, and you're not able-

Jefferson Fisher 37:09 Ooh, that's a good way

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:09 ... to separate.

Jefferson Fisher 37:09 You are your thoughts.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:10 You are your thoughts.

Jefferson Fisher 37:11 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:11 And so, and that's when these voices become us. So it's not, "Oh, I'm hearing the anxiety." It's, "I am the anxiety," and it feels very s- fixed.

Jefferson Fisher 37:20 That's terrible.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:20 It's the worst.

Jefferson Fisher 37:21 And then it just becomes a loop.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:23 Completely. So what you can do in those moments, and you actually touched on it beautifully, is to recognize that these voices are actually designed to try and protect us from something.

Jefferson Fisher 37:33 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:33 And so if you can just say, "Hey, thanks. I hear you." So we would encourage people to use the voices or to, to recognize which of the voices are driving it. So anxiety, if it's related to, "I haven't done enough. I need-

Jefferson Fisher 37:44 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:44 ... to do more," that's the voice of the ringmaster.

Jefferson Fisher 37:47 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:47 So you would say, "Hey, ringmaster. Thanks. I appreciate what you're doing, but no thanks. Like, I don't need you right now."

Jefferson Fisher 37:54 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 37:54 So you're acknowledging and then consciously saying, "I don't need that," which creates a little bit of separation. We like to use the analogy of imagine you have a bat, and that voice, that ringmaster's voice, is coming towards you like the ball.

Jefferson Fisher 38:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:08 You basically say, "Thanks, but no thanks," and you whack the ball away.

Jefferson Fisher 38:11 Just smack it.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:11 Smack it away, right?

Jefferson Fisher 38:13 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:13 You see it go in the distance.

Jefferson Fisher 38:14 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:15 The idea behind this is that you're creating some kind of a visual-

Jefferson Fisher 38:17 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:17 ... that reminds you, "Hey, you don't have to accept everything."

Jefferson Fisher 38:19 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:20 Now, that can be helpful in the moment. The other thing you need to do in the moment, though, is called positive distraction. So I... Let me give you an example. I had an experience kind of recently where something happened, and I kept ruminating about it, and it would happen whenever I was out walking because I sometimes try not to take any headphones, and I just like to be present.

Jefferson Fisher 38:39 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:39 And then, of course, all the voices come in, and I kept ruminating about this thing, and I literally said to it, "Nope, classic judge, not today. Nope, not today."

Jefferson Fisher 38:48 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 38:48 And I kept repeating that, and then I had to shift to something more productive. So they say distraction, you know, "Distraction is terrible. You should process all your thoughts when they come." No. According to the research, if you try and process everything as it happens, it can just feel overwhelming 'cause you're in the heat of that emotional moment.

Jefferson Fisher 39:05 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:05 Sometimes a positive distraction is, "I'm going to call a friend. I'm going to put on a song that really gets my energy up." You can take an action in that moment to just shift your state, and then you come back to it later. I wanna share two very, very quick tools here for anyone listening who's saying-

Jefferson Fisher 39:20 Let's hear them

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:20 ... "Oh, this is me."

Jefferson Fisher 39:20 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:21 The first one is if you tend to worry a lot and overthink a lot, there is a fantastic research-based strategy called stimulus control for worry. What does that mean? When that worry thought-

Jefferson Fisher 39:34 Hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:34 ... that rumination, that overthinking pops up during the day, write it down. Have a notebook and a pen, or put it in your phone. Just capture the thought. This in itself has been shown to reduce the intensity of the emotion 'cause you're giving it some kind of an outlet.

Jefferson Fisher 39:48 W- write down the, the worry?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:49 You write down the worry.

Jefferson Fisher 39:50 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 39:51 You actually write it down. So it could be, "I'm going to mess up my presentation tomorrow. I'm going to mess up the interview. My husband or wife is going to this or that," whatever it is.

Jefferson Fisher 40:02 The podcast-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:02 You write it down

Jefferson Fisher 40:02 ... is gonna be terrible.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:02 The podcast is gonna be terrible.

Jefferson Fisher 40:04 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:04 Like, you write it down.

Jefferson Fisher 40:04 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:05 And then you say, "Okay, I've got it captured. I'm going to worry about you during worry time." This is the second piece. Every day you set yourself maybe 10 minutes of worry time. You put it in your calendar, just not too close to bed 'cause it might affect your sleep.

Jefferson Fisher 40:19 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:19 You put it in your calendar. When that time comes, you set an alarm for, say, 10 minutes. You pull out your worry list, and you allow yourself to worry. What research has shown-

Jefferson Fisher 40:29 That's cool

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:30 ... is that it reduces the intensity of the worry. It shrinks the fear to size, and the emotional intensity of trying to worry about something after you've already written it down, you just can't get back to where it was, which is great because you realize how many of your worries are just that. They are just worries that are never going to actually come true-

Jefferson Fisher 40:49 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 40:49 ... unless you allow yourself to worry about them, and then you almost bring them into existence because you become like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Jefferson Fisher 40:56 Right. Yeah, a- absolutely. That makes me think of my dad. He, um, my dad is not a worrier. Now, when he does worry, everybody in the house knows it.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 41:05 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 41:05 You know? But he's just not, he's just not a worrier, and I kind of took a lot of that personality where I would, you know, we would come with, to him with something, and he would be like, "Well, nothing I can do about it. Can, can you do anything about it right now?" And I'd say, "No." He'd say, "Well, okay. Well, that's an issue for another day."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 41:24 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 41:24 And so I think that is an excellent idea that I've never considered before, and that is schedule your worry time, especially for the things that you can't control right now. Just why, why allow that to take up all of your calendar or at least be the layer or the film that all of life sits on, that you just, you're living on this lava bed of worry all the time?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 41:49 Lava bed.

Jefferson Fisher 41:50 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 41:50 What a great analogy.

Jefferson Fisher 41:51 Yeah. Yeah, actually, the science research suggests we call that the lava bed of worry.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 41:55 Oh. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 41:55 [laughs] Um, and, and to be able to just say, "Actually, no, I'm, I'm going to write all this down. I'll see you later, 1:00 PM Central Standard Time."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:06 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 42:06 "Now, okay, I get to worry about as much as I want right now, and then when time's up, go on about life."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:12 Move on. It's remarkable, and-

Jefferson Fisher 42:13 That really is healthy, I think.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:14 It's healthy. You know, I think we live in a world of hyper-optimization. Get better, be better, eat better, sleep better, worry less, and yes, there's a time and place for everything, but sometimes trying to avoid-

Jefferson Fisher 42:25 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:26 ... the thing is not actually the best approach. It's giving it a structure.

Jefferson Fisher 42:31 Worry better.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:31 Worry better.

Jefferson Fisher 42:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:32 Yeah, that's true. Gosh.

Jefferson Fisher 42:33 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:33 We don't wanna add more pressure there.

Jefferson Fisher 42:34 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:34 But so that's really effective for anyone who tends to worry a lot, and you can do these with these voices, these personalities, these archetypes.

Jefferson Fisher 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 42:41 What am I hearing? So you go, you can write it down. You say, "Okay, not right now. Thanks, but no thanks." The next stage would be at the end of the week, you look at your list and you say, "Which of these actually came true? Which ones were things that I was legitimately worrying about and then they became reality?" And you'll find something like 97% of them don't come true, and even the ones that do come true, it was not as bad as you thought at all.

Jefferson Fisher 43:04 Before we continue, I want to take a moment to tell you about Dose. Now, one thing that sneaks up on a lot of people in your life, including myself, is cholesterol. Cholesterol is one of those things where we always want to target and we always want to lower it, but it's, it's hard. And how do you do it? Often it's not just your everyday diet and exercise, it's also supplements that you take. Well, Dose is something that I've been using now for probably about three months, and I love it. It's a clinically backed, proven cholesterol supplement, and what it does, it targets triglycerides, LDL, HDL, and total cholesterol levels. And I really, as you know, I, I only like to talk about things, especially if it's some kind of supplement, that I take. And it's all been great for us to lower my cholesterol level, and it tastes really great. And the cool thing about it is it's simple. All you have to do is take, like, a two ounce just liquid form of it, and it tastes like mango. It has some ginger in it, uh, and it's, it's easy. I, I actually look forward to after I finish a meal, take a little bit of it, and it's there to support lower cholesterol levels. So if there's somebody in your life that struggles with cholesterol levels and worries about or is concerned about it, Dose for Cholesterol is something that I really do support because it not only tastes good, I know that it's good for me. So if you want to take a more active role in your cholesterol levels, you can go to dosedaily.co/jefferson or use code Jefferson for up to 35% off your first month subscription. That's dosedaily.co.co/jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 44:35 And now let's keep going. I want everybody to know, you have in your book, Big Trust, which is fantastic, is you have this quiz that you can take.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 44:44 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 44:44 I took your quiz.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 44:45 You did.

Jefferson Fisher 44:45 I did. I took your quiz and I sent it to you-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 44:47 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:47 ... um, after dinner. I'm gonna pull it... Okay. Here's-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 44:55 Oh, you actually printed it.

Jefferson Fisher 44:56 Say what?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 44:56 You actually printed it.

Jefferson Fisher 44:56 I actually, believe it or not, I printed it in color.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:00 Yeah, the colors are all off, though. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 45:02 Hey, listen.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:03 Hey, this is impressive.

Jefferson Fisher 45:04 You know what? This is, this is about-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:05 This is great. So what you've completed is your doubt profile.

Jefferson Fisher 45:09 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:09 The doubt profile assessment. So you know how earlier I was talking about there are these four drivers of self-doubt?

Jefferson Fisher 45:14 Yes.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:15 And there are different attributes that we can strengthen, and when they're weak, that's when self-doubt creeps in.

Jefferson Fisher 45:19 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:20 So far we've talked about a- the first attribute, which is acceptance.

Jefferson Fisher 45:23 Okay, I'm with you. On the big trust side.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:25 This is on the big trust side.

Jefferson Fisher 45:26 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:26 So when acceptance is low, that's when self-doubt sneaks in related to that attribute.

Jefferson Fisher 45:31 Makes sense.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:31 But then we have three others, which we will get to in more detail, but I'll quickly share what they are.

Jefferson Fisher 45:36 Yes.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:36 And actually, let me share what this quiz gives you. So if anyone listening or watching wants to find out how much doubt you experience in your life and what is driving that doubt based on which of these four attributes is weak, you can do this quiz. It's completely free. It's at doubtprofile.com.

Jefferson Fisher 45:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:53 It takes about three minutes. I mean, how long did it take you to complete?

Jefferson Fisher 45:56 It took me 30 seconds.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 45:57 30 seconds.

Jefferson Fisher 45:57 If, if that. And to me, what, what that does is, because everybody doubts, the importance of that to me, what, how I found it insightful, and I know we'll talk about it, is it tells you where the doubt is coming from.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:09 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 46:09 And that's, that's, that's critical.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:12 Completely. Because if you don't know where it's coming from, you don't know what to do about it. And actually, what we find is so many people, because they have misinterpreted what their doubt is and where it's coming from, they're trying tools and strategies that are completely ineffective. For example, so we've talked about acceptance.

Jefferson Fisher 46:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:28 If you struggle with acceptance, positive affirmations like, "I am enough, I am worthy"-

Jefferson Fisher 46:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:35 ... they backfire.

Jefferson Fisher 46:36 Oh.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:37 Research shows that people who struggle with acceptance, which means lower self-esteem, when they use these positive affirmations, it makes them feel worse.

Jefferson Fisher 46:45 [laughs] Really?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:45 And yet we're taught that no, these are fantastic research based tools. Unless you know which one is driving the doubt, you might then unintentionally be doing things that make you feel even worse.

Jefferson Fisher 46:56 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 46:57 So that's something to be aware of. The first one, as we've covered, is acceptance.

Jefferson Fisher 47:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:02 Let's move to the next three quickly, and then we're gonna help Jefferson diagnose what his doubt profile looks like.

Jefferson Fisher 47:07 Yes, please.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:07 So-

Jefferson Fisher 47:07 I need lots of help

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:08 ... for anyone who does this online, you will get a printout of your four attributes, where they're weak, where they're strong, and then you also get a report that shows you what they look like, what they sound like.

Jefferson Fisher 47:19 Yeah, it was interesting.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:19 Yeah. It's, it's great. Good stuff in there. Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 47:21 It's good stuff. PhD.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:22 So [laughs] ... Woo. Oh, and this is actually based on a psychometrically validated tool, which is great, too. So-

Jefferson Fisher 47:27 That's the kind of words I use all the time

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:28 ... someone else did the research, and then [laughs] -

Jefferson Fisher 47:29 Yeah [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:30 ... and then we tweaked it so that it applies to doubt.

Jefferson Fisher 47:32 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:32 So acceptance is your first one. That's when you don't feel like you're enough.

Jefferson Fisher 47:35 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:36 The second element of self-doubt relates specifically to the question of can I do it?

Jefferson Fisher 47:42 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:42 Can I actually do this thing? So it's this view of do I have the skills and the capability-

Jefferson Fisher 47:47 Capability

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 47:48 ... to, to do the thing. Now, in the context of conversations, this is really interesting because there are some people who also, in addition to maybe not feeling like they're enough, they doubt whether they have the words to coherently speak up in a meeting.

Jefferson Fisher 48:05 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:06 Or people, a lot of people who are non-native English speakers who have an accent, they struggle with their agency because they feel like people don't understand them.

Jefferson Fisher 48:13 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:14 Uh, you might have people who avoid addressing a conflict with their loved one at home. They don't want to bring it up because they don't feel like-

Jefferson Fisher 48:20 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:20 ... they have the words to deal with it. They don't have, we call this agency. They don't have agency in relation to addressing a conflict.

Jefferson Fisher 48:27 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:28 And it's purely because of that doubt that they then let things fester and not take action, and then things get worse.

Jefferson Fisher 48:33 And that's the second one.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:35 That's the second one, which is agency.

Jefferson Fisher 48:36 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:36 It's entirely related to, yeah, can I do this? Do I have the tools-

Jefferson Fisher 48:40 Do I have the agency to do it

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:41 ... the ability? And even, can I learn how to do this?

Jefferson Fisher 48:42 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 48:43 That's part of it as well. So that's the second one. The third driver is autonomy. This is where that fifth- Voice of self-criticism comes in, the victimizer. This is where we start to feel, "Why me? Why is life so difficult for me?" They complain all the time, they're resentful, they're frustrated. They blame everything and everyone for their problems. That's the third. We call it autonomy. It's when you don't feel like you have control in your life, in your relationships.

Jefferson Fisher 49:13 Everything's hap- happening and you're left out.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:15 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 49:15 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:16 And then the fourth relates to adaptability, which is specifically emotions. Can you get a handle on your emotions? Do you trust that you can navigate the emotions that come with life? Do you trust that, okay, if I have this conversation with my husband, my wife, my boyfriend, my girlfriend-

Jefferson Fisher 49:33 Mm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:33 ... and I'm raising something quite contentious here, or it could cause a conflict, do I trust that I'm gonna be able to handle the emotions that will come with it?

Jefferson Fisher 49:41 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:41 Or am I just going to shut down and cry in the corner of the room in the fetal position?

Jefferson Fisher 49:45 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:46 That actually drives a form of self-doubt. So these four attributes, and when they're, any of them are weak, that then tells us, where is our self-doubt coming from?

Jefferson Fisher 49:57 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 49:58 Where is it being driven by? And then it gives us a roadmap in terms of, well, what do I need to do? Or how am I using others to compensate? And actually, that brings us to your Doubt Profile.

Jefferson Fisher 50:08 Okay, here we go. This is where we learn where Jefferson's self-doubt is.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:11 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 50:11 All right. I'm ready.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:11 So let's actually explore-

Jefferson Fisher 50:13 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:13 ... Jefferson's Doubt Profile. So firstly, the first measure that we get is doubt in his life. And Jefferson's ... So there's doubt heavy, which would be if you were really struggling with doubt. Situational, which is where it's kind of conditional depending on who you're-

Jefferson Fisher 50:25 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:25 ... with and what you're doing. You actually fall in the big trust zone, which is what I would expect. Someone with your, uh, background, your caliber, what you've achieved, it's not hindering you.

Jefferson Fisher 50:36 So d- I wanna make sure, uh, so what you're talking about is a spectrum.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:40 Spectrum, yes.

Jefferson Fisher 50:40 Of these four indicators help indicate [laughs] the spectrum of things.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 50:45 So one is, let's say, a lot of doubt, and the other is big trust.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:49 Big trust.

Jefferson Fisher 50:49 Okay, so I'm at least in the big trust category.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:52 You're just in the big trust category.

Jefferson Fisher 50:54 Yes. Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:54 You're just there. You just made it.

Jefferson Fisher 50:56 Which means?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 50:57 Which means, and this is where we need to then go a bit more granular and find out, well, let's look at each of these attributes within you and what is going on here. So your acceptance is in the hidden strength zone, which means it's not superpower zone. So superpower is where it's, like, the top that it could possibly be. Now, if anyone is at, at the top where it could possibly be, there's also a risk of excessive acceptance. What do you think happens when someone has excessive self-acceptance or excessive self-esteem? So it's no longer healthy. It's very, very, very strong, but it's not at healthy levels.

Jefferson Fisher 51:29 Well, two ways I could see it go. So if somebody is, has, thinks everything they do is great, then they're probably ... Like, that should set some alarms that something's off.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 51:43 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 51:43 That, you know, you ... I think you have to have a healthy amount of doubt.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 51:46 Yeah, 'cause otherwise you become conceited.

Jefferson Fisher 51:47 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 51:48 I am better than everybody else.

Jefferson Fisher 51:49 Right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 51:50 So we, you know, when any- anyone is at the superpower zone, we start to interrogate and understand. But you're in the heal- hidden strength zone, which is great.

Jefferson Fisher 51:58 Phew. Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 51:58 So that's a healthy zone.

Jefferson Fisher 51:59 Thank goodness.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:00 Your agency, which is the second one, which is the belief in, you know, can I actually do this thing?

Jefferson Fisher 52:06 Did we talk about acceptance? Am I good on acceptance?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:08 Yeah, you're good on acceptance.

Jefferson Fisher 52:09 Okay, great. Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:09 Hidden strength.

Jefferson Fisher 52:09 Okay. All right. Great.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:10 You wanna see your results as well as we go through them.

Jefferson Fisher 52:12 Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:12 So you're good, hidden strength.

Jefferson Fisher 52:13 Good on hidden strengths.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:14 Your agency is actually in the hindrance zone.

Jefferson Fisher 52:16 Oh, no.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:17 So that's one up from the very lowest, which is red alert.

Jefferson Fisher 52:20 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:21 And what that means is that that's your weakest link. So that's your agency. The third one is autonomy. You are in the hidden strength.

Jefferson Fisher 52:27 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:28 Which means you focus on what you can control. You feel personally powerful. You make things happen.

Jefferson Fisher 52:33 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:33 And then the fourth one is adaptability, where with the exception of the anxiety that you had maybe be- been feeling-

Jefferson Fisher 52:39 Yeah

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:39 ... you generally feel like you have a handle on your emotional state. You can adapt to what comes your way, and you have a degree of trust around that.

Jefferson Fisher 52:46 Okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:46 Okay. So then looking at this as an archetype, your weak link is your agency.

Jefferson Fisher 52:50 Agency.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 52:51 You compensate with your other three attributes, which means it hasn't really hindered you too much, but it is there and it's lingering. And so what this tells me ... I mean, you probably need to tell me, but I'll tell you what I think.

Jefferson Fisher 53:03 Doctors are right.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:03 And then you can [laughs] you can-

Jefferson Fisher 53:05 Yeah, why don't you tell me-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:05 ... let me know if it's accurate

Jefferson Fisher 53:06 ... what's the diagnosis here? How bad is it?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:08 You might have a tendency, because of the nature of what you do-

Jefferson Fisher 53:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:11 ... and how you've gone through a full transition over the last five years-

Jefferson Fisher 53:14 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:14 ... in terms of, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 53:15 Yeah, a little bit

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:15 ... the people that you help and, and the visibility that you have-

Jefferson Fisher 53:18 Mm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:18 ... which is phenomenal and so well-deserved-

Jefferson Fisher 53:20 Thank you

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:22 ... you might find yourself comparing yourself to other people who have been doing this for a lot longer, who are maybe further ahead, and you feel like there's always things that you're missing out on that you should be doing that they're doing that you're not. And so there's this part of you that feels like you're never satisfied.

Jefferson Fisher 53:39 Okay. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:40 Does that, does it seem-

Jefferson Fisher 53:40 Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's really spot on.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:42 And then potentially also, not a fear, but an undercurrent of, am I really as good as everyone thinks that I am?

Jefferson Fisher 53:51 Dang.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:52 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 53:52 Shadé, okay.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:53 It's just straight coming from your results.

Jefferson Fisher 53:55 Golly.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 53:55 So kudos to you for actually completing this with honesty.

Jefferson Fisher 54:00 Yeah. Well, I want people, I want my listeners to, uh, to be able to see of, I don't have it figured out either.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 54:07 Yeah. And that's the beautiful thing. You don't have to have it all figured out. But what you do well is you detach from the thoughts and you take action anyway. But can you tell us a little bit about what that experience is like for you?

Jefferson Fisher 54:17 Yeah, for sure. I'll take this. I, I, when I look at it, you know, my, where a lot of my doubt comes from is, you, you hit it really right on the head. So I, I can definitely see the value of, of doing this quiz. Where does my doubt come from? I for sure have it from feeling like everybody else has it figured out and I don't. In this new creator, author, speaker, whatever this is, influencer, I, I don't know.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 54:46 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 54:47 And so I went to law school, right? I went to college, I went to law school, have law firm, and I, that's what I thought I was gonna do. And then I just felt- It, like, now I'm in a totally different space somewhat, and it's like going to a new school, and you're the new kid, and you're still trying to figure out, like, what classroom to go in. And everybody else knows how to get there, and you're still trying to figure it out, you know? And the staircase move. You're, you're in Hogwarts. So it's like you're trying to figure out [laughs] what- what's all going on. And so what do you do? You try and look at what everybody else is doing, and then you go, "Oh, that looks really cool. How did they do that? I don't know." And so I have, I think I have a lot of that comparison, that doubt that comes from there. But what he- helps me, and what you've emphasized, is coming back to that form of self-acceptance, of, "Hey, just be Jefferson."

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 55:41 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 55:41 You just be, you just be yourself. That's really what you, you need to emphasize. And the other thing that you mentioned that is also spot on is feeling like, am I doing enough, and did I ... Is it, is it, do I deserve?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:00 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 56:01 Uh, is it ... Because in my mind, I'll never do enough to deserve. And so trying to talk to that voice, that voice is, can be pretty rough.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:12 Oh, that's a classic one for low agency. It's the imposter, the feeling of the imposter. Feeling like ... And in fact, 82% of people have been found, in some studies, to feel that. To feel that I don't deserve where I am, and I'll never do enough to deserve where I am.

Jefferson Fisher 56:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:26 I like to see it as intellectual humility, which comes from Adam Grant. So Adam Grant talks about this a lot.

Jefferson Fisher 56:31 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:31 How when we focus on ... I mean, if you were to say, "No, I deserve everything I've had," I mean-

Jefferson Fisher 56:38 That'd be a problem

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:38 ... that would probably m- yeah, that would be a problem, right? That would be excessive agency. So the fact that you have a degree of humility around recognizing that maybe there are other things that you could have done, or there are other people that could be where you are. So, I want, for anyone who is feeling this, anyone who feels a little bit like an imposter-

Jefferson Fisher 56:54 Hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 56:54 ... what I encourage you all to do is to grab a piece of paper and split it up into three columns. In your left column ... I love how you were, like, thinking about that, like visualizing-

Jefferson Fisher 57:04 Yeah, I was, I was visualizing columns

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:05 ... the three [laughs] . Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 57:05 ... I was like, okay, I got my paper. I'm visualizing in my head and writing it down.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:08 In the left column, I want you to write down ... So Jefferson said, "Just be Jefferson," right? So that's the idea of what are your essence qualities? What are the things that you have developed over time? So I'm not talking about hard skills. I'm not talking about these tangible, like coding and ... I'm talking about the qualities-

Jefferson Fisher 57:26 I wish I could code

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:27 ... that ... I wish I could code. Next, next one.

Jefferson Fisher 57:27 I can, I can whittle sticks [laughs] as best as I got.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:29 That's pretty good.

Jefferson Fisher 57:29 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:30 So you write down your essence qualities, right? The grit, the persistence, the-

Jefferson Fisher 57:33 Hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 57:34 ... desire to be of service, the curiosity, the growth mindset. Write them all down. In your middle column, you wanna write down what are the things that you feel like you don't know how to do yet in your space, whatever it could be. And then in your third column, you're basically matching up your essence qualities with the things you don't know how to do yet. When we focus on all the things that we don't know how to do and how we have gaps, and we fixate there, it becomes a lot larger than it actually is. Because all we focus on is what we know how to do currently, what we don't know how to do, and then we feel like we can never do it. But when you remind yourself, "Hold on, I have these essence qualities that can help me learn, help me put things into practice, and help me actually fill the gaps that I see here," suddenly you realize that you don't have to have it all figured out.

Jefferson Fisher 58:21 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:21 You just have to apply what you know, be Jefferson or be whoever you are, and then make a plan. And then take a step.

Jefferson Fisher 58:28 So for the person listening right now, and the person feels like everybody else has it figured out and I don't, what do you, what do you say to them?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:37 I'm gonna say that that has a term. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 58:39 Of course, you ... That's one thing I love about Shadé.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:41 [laughs] It's a term.

Jefferson Fisher 58:42 Is that if there is something, there is some kind of term for it.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:47 Well, was it molten lava anxiety?

Jefferson Fisher 58:48 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:48 That was one term you came up with.

Jefferson Fisher 58:49 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:49 That was a good one.

Jefferson Fisher 58:50 Thank you.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:50 This is called pluralistic ignorance.

Jefferson Fisher 58:53 I knew it.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:53 Which actually [laughs] it ... No, it's that-

Jefferson Fisher 58:55 Is it? Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:56 ... it is. It's actually called-

Jefferson Fisher 58:57 Okay

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 58:57 ... pluralistic ignorance, where we think we're the only ones who are behind, who are struggling. Everyone else has it all figured out. Do you realize that most people are thinking that same thing? They just don't verbalize it.

Jefferson Fisher 59:08 Oh, no, Shadé, I'm the only one who's thinking it. [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:11 I'm the only one.

Jefferson Fisher 59:12 I'm the only one who's thinking it.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:13 And it's such a stubborn belief.

Jefferson Fisher 59:15 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:15 But it's so prevalent. And when you remind yourself that-

Jefferson Fisher 59:18 So true

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:18 ... it's okay to be learning and growing and figuring it out. The other thing that we do when we struggle with agency is we fixate on here and now. All I can do is what I can do now. This is where I'm at. We forget just how far we've come. I mean, Jefferson, if you were to just shift your spotlight back to five years ago-

Jefferson Fisher 59:36 Hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:36 ... your reality would have been completely different. I mean, when did you start creating content?

Jefferson Fisher 59:42 Three years ago.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:43 Three years ago, right.

Jefferson Fisher 59:44 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:44 So five years ago-

Jefferson Fisher 59:45 Three and a half, something like that

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:46 ... you were a completely different, at a completely different level.

Jefferson Fisher 59:51 It's just-

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:51 And you back then might not have even had the ability to envisage what your life right now could have looked like.

Jefferson Fisher 59:57 Not in a bajillion years.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 59:58 Which is wild. And that's the other thing. I think I like reminding people that sometimes when you ask yourself, like, "What do you want to achieve for yourself?" Sometimes we're not even capable of visualizing what is truly possible, unless we just take the step and see where we end up.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:14 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:00:15 And that's what you did. So if you can shift the spotlight back and just remind yourself, "Look at all of these steps I've taken when I haven't known how to do it, when I was figuring it out, when I was mastering this record in my car," which now everyone does.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:26 [laughs]

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:00:27 You know, that demonstrates so much tenacity and commitment, all these essence qualities.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:00:32 And it's just about drawing on them and applying them to whatever is next.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:37 Now that we've talked a lot about this, this element of big trust, what does big trust sound like?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:00:42 It sounds like someone who is unapologetic about who they are. It sounds like someone who speaks with a calm certainty, even if they don't have all the answers.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:51 Hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:00:51 It sounds like someone not trying to prove themselves, but believing so deeply that they are of value and have value to share, that other people can't help but sense it and believe it too. And so if we look at tangibly what that looks like, they walk into a room as if they truly belong to be there, meaning their posture is raised, their gaze is out, their chin is up. Super interestingly, we hear a lot about- ... expansive postures. The importance of having an expansive posture and then you feel more confident. I wanted to understand what is it about the expansive posture that leads to those feelings of confidence. And I found there was one study that was published last year that found there is what's called a mediator, which means, like, that inner mechanism between the posture and the confidence.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:01:36 And it's the distance between your chin and your chest.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:40 Interesting.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:01:40 That, it's called neck flexion. When you're slouching, when you're withdrawing, when you feel insecure, yeah, sure, sh- shoulders go, but it's actually also your head that drops.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:50 Interesting.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:01:50 So if you can just think, "Okay, what is the distance between my chin and my chest, and how do I elongate it?" Not by looking at the ceiling, but in a natural state, you will naturally feel more empowered, and then you will na- there you go.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:01 Yeah.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:02:01 You just did it. And you will naturally convey more of that big trust energy that we're seeking. What's really interesting about that, when you show up like you belong, because of something called, [lips smack] it's called, there's this idea of enclothed cognition. But the idea is when you're showing up as the person you want to be-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:02:19 ... people then respond to that. They respond more positively to that. Which then makes you feel like, "Maybe I really do deserve this."

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:27 Mm.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:02:27 "Maybe I, I do have a voice that is valued." And then you show up more like that, and then they respond. So we almost create our environment based on how we choose to show up. And again, it's that posture, it's that voice, it's that eye contact. It's also if you mess up, just say, "Oh, let me try that again," or, "That came out funny. Let me rephrase that." So many people are s- I used to be, so afraid of making mistakes, that if you make a mistake, you just go silent. Just acknowledge it. You're human. There's so much... What I love about big trust is that [lips smack] it's not about being perfect. It's not about being flawless. It's about being human, recognizing that even though you're imperfect, you are still worthy, you are still capable, you are still powerful, and you can still handle anything that comes your way.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:09 So good. I'm gonna ask you a question that I ask, uh, every guest at the end, and it's this: What is one conversation that has changed the direction of your life?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:03:23 When I worked in banking, I randomly sat next to someone, and as I do, I ask for their name and I like to get to know them. And after maybe a 30-minute conversation while we were doing work, he said to me, "Why are you here?" Now, I replied, "Oh, I just came to this floor because we're able to go." And he goes, "No, no, no. Why are you working in a company in this space? You should be doing bigger things." And I knew exactly what he was talking about, and it was almost like he unlocked the cage that allowed me to recognize, hey, I can have so much more value if I go off outside of this environment, outside of my job, which was, I don't know, in strategy or something at the time-

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:04:03 ... and actually create a life where I can be of service and remind myself constantly to self-forget. So that was Josh. His name was Josh. I owe Josh big time. I'm still in touch with him.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:13 Oh, cool.

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:04:14 That was my moment.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:15 That was it?

Dr. Shadé Zahrai 1:04:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:16 That's awesome.