You’ll Wish You Learned This BEFORE Your Last Argument

1. 0:00 – 1:09

   Why “winning” an argument costs you what matters most

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      If you go into it always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge, uh, and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a, a law that is applying to this, and they just... I might have more precedent than the other person, and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, this feeling of, "Well, I have to win a lot of trials." Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes. If you wanna spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost enough. Um, but the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument, it's, it's lying to you. Because what you're gonna do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship, you're gonna lose their respect, they're gonna close themself off from you. You're gonna be less approachable. You're gonna lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument.

2. 1:09 – 2:15

   Handling someone who always asserts dominance in conversation

   1. SPSpeaker1:09

      Hmm. What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So let's start out. Look, his content, you guys, is so specific, is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words. Where perhaps you are the secondary person, is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of, wrestle's the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a convers- You know what I mean when I say that? That you have the-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:54

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker1:54

      ... people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not. They're in charge, you're not. They're picking the restaurant, you're not.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

      Mm.

   5. SPSpeaker2:02

      Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I, I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

3. 2:15 – 3:15

   Don’t push back—don’t get pushed over (one-on-one strategy)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:15

      Let's split the dynamic, too. Let's say it's, if it's one-on-one, much harder because th- this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're gonna do is just not be pushed over, meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not gonna push back 'cause they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, "Okay. Noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask." This ability to kind of be in the, in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them. "Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice." "Oh, you know, uh, Ed? Ed's great. Yeah, you need to..." And they start to compete with one

4. 3:15 – 4:15

   Insecurity is loud; confidence is quiet

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:15

      another of how many names they can drop, uh, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas, or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say, is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet, and when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud. Confidence is very quiet.

   2. SPSpeaker4:02

      You say that about leaders, too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct?

5. 4:15 – 5:37

   Great leaders create space: calm energy and forward motion

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:15

      Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, "Oh, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, y- who do you think you're talking to?" And they need to correct and, and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the, the best leaders have a calm energy about them. When they're on the floor of whatever's happening, instead of this erratic, you know, "What's going on? Okay, we need to do this," and, and they start shouting and, and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, "Okay. What do we need to do next? What's happening next?" Instead of the blame, it's where are we moving forward. So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

6. 5:37 – 7:19

   Why fewer words can mean more impact (broadcasting parallel)

   1. SPSpeaker5:37

      Brother, it's so good. You by, the way you exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting, and so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words Because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time, and that taught me to communicate with fewer words saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, there are fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. What if you're with somebody who, I used it earlier, but I wanna go a little bit deeper, they pick on you? They kinda gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost, um, passive-aggressive in the way they say things, and you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine, married couples. There's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive-aggressive with one another in the way they communicate, and I, I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most of the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a, or a strategy for that?

7. 7:19 – 8:05

   Responding to passive-aggressive “gnawing” and subtle put-downs

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:19

      Let's separate it into two different categories. So one, let's say, is kind of this more, uh, just passive-aggressive bucket. The other is let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful or rude. So in this first bucket, this passive-aggressive, these are people that, uh, most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw, mirrored, uh, conversation and arguments throughout their life, and they don't know how to express that kinda thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that you know there's something to that, a simple question of, like, "Should I read into that," or, "Is there more to that?" Or I... And this goes for Chris Foss, a dear friend, and he ... I love his, his question is, "Sounds like you have a reason for saying that." I love that phrase. I-

   2. SPSpeaker8:04

      Mm-hmm

8. 8:05 – 10:45

   Addressing overt rudeness with the “Did you mean…?” question

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:05

      ... I also love, "Sounds like there's more to that." So any time you can just quickly ask, "Sounds like there's more to that," or ask them, "Should I read into that?" Th- that tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness, 'cause they're not expecting you to kinda call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody's saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, "Did you mean?" Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Uh, did you say that to offend me? It... When you say, "Did you mean?" It is twofold. One, it's giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's gonna allow them to fix it. Like, uh, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of it, saying, you know, "Why are you being so short? What's wrong?"

   2. SPSpeaker9:01

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher9:02

      The quest- I ask the question, "Did you mean for that to sound short?" Instantly-

   4. SPSpeaker9:06

      I-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher9:06

      ... almost every time, my, my, you know, it, it is like the, "Oh, no, no, no, no, sorry. I'm picking up the kids," or, "I, you know, I, I was checking out the grocery store," or getting gas. You know, you, you get that, that, "K," or, "Okay," and you're like, "Oh, okay. I guess, I guess they hate me right now. All, all right. Like, I guess they're in a mood." And then you naturally get in a mood, and then you respond defensively, which causes them to, to respond offensively, and now you're convinced, you've convinced yourself you're under attack. So it's this, um, this feedback loop that's not helpful to you. So when you begin with, "Did you mean?" It's a great way to beset somebody, to, one, give them that grace of fixing it, but two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to, to, and to embarrass me? Did you say that to, to offend me? It is, uh, or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a, a very quick way to address it out in the open and verify if they're gonna double down on it or not.

   6. SPSpeaker10:00

      Will you do that in re- By the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you feel like you're ... I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you, in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid. When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this. With friends and family, I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But so let's say we have gone back and forth, and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by. Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, "What did you hear me say?" How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive-aggressive or demeaning or rude?

9. 10:45 – 11:56

   Breaking the misinterpretation loop: “What did you hear?”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher10:45

      Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even, even work too. When somebody tells you something, you know, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, "That's not what you said. You said this," and they kinda give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a-

   2. SPSpeaker11:01

      Yeah

   3. JFJefferson Fisher11:01

      ... intonation. And, and you're like, "I didn't even say it like that." And all of a sudden, now you're going, "That's not what I said. I didn't say it like that." You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed, and nine times out of 10, it is inaccurate because-

   4. SPSpeaker11:15

      Mm-hmm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher11:15

      ... what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, "That's not what I said," um, you are going to ask the question, w- "What did you hear? What did you hear?"

   6. SPSpeaker11:25

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:26

      Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard, because that's what matters. Any time you have that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication, instead of going, "No, no, no. Not, that's not what, that's not what I said," and kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective. Uh, by the way, it's very hard to, to judge. [laughs] It's like making your own movie but not having an audience and going, "No, no, that's not how the movie goes." It's like nobody else has seen it. O- o- only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask

10. 11:56 – 12:57

    Validation language that de-escalates: “I can see…”

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:56

       the question, "What did you hear?" And they explain it, that's when you can say, "Oh, that was not my intent," or, "I apologize for that impression." Or I would recommend is begin your sentence with, "I can see." Like, "I can see how you'd feel that way. I can see how that'd come off."

    2. SPSpeaker12:11

       Very good.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher12:11

       You know, whenever you say, um, you know, "I c- I can see why you'd feel that way. I can see why, uh, that would upset you," that I can see just says, "Hey, I took a second to walk over to where you're standing, and I turned to look the same way that you're looking, and I can confirm, yeah, what you see is reasonable. What you see is justified. You know what? That makes sense. I can see that." Like, that right there just goes boo. It naturally takes down the aggression, this, "I have to win. You have to see it what I see." Any time you can do that and use words of perspective, uh, like view, perspective, see, um, that is going to help somebody go, "Oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood." And by that, they're gonna be more receptive to the progress.

11. 12:57 – 13:34

    Why these communication tools matter (closing remarks)

    1. SPSpeaker12:57

       This is so good. You guys, just so you know when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's, like, only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff, and it, it may be in the top three most important things in life is be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a, a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships. This is not stuff that's taught anywhere, yet it should be.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher13:26

       If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 13:35