Joe Rogan Experience #1062 - Dan Harris & Jeff Warren

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Ladies and gentlemen, please…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dan Harris and Jeff Warren. I don't know why I started off that way.

   2. DHDan Harris0:11

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      It just felt weird. It's- it's always weird to start.

   4. DHDan Harris0:14

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Starting these things is always very odd. Uh, welcome. Welcome, Jeff. Very nice to meet you.

   6. DHDan Harris0:19

      Thank you, man.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      And, uh, Dan, first tank experience. We didn't talk too much about it.

   8. DHDan Harris0:23

      No.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      You just got out-

   10. DHDan Harris0:24

       Yeah. You- you- you dragged me-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       ... of the sensory deprivation tank (laughs) .

   12. DHDan Harris0:26

       ... into your tank.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       See, I don't even know if that's a word, dragged-

   14. DHDan Harris0:29

       Can-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       ... goon?

   16. DHDan Harris0:29

       It is a word. Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       (laughs)

   18. DHDan Harris0:31

       ... uh, you know, we should tell people how you did it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       Okay.

   20. DHDan Harris0:34

       You basically taunted me on text.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       Well-

   22. DHDan Harris0:37

       Which was awesome.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       ... it wasn't quite a taunt.

   24. DHDan Harris0:38

       You called me a chicken. Um, but you were- You called me a chicken.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... you were saying that you were scared of being in there. I'm like, "How can you be scared?"

   26. DHDan Harris0:43

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       "There's nothing to be scared of. It's just water."

   28. DHDan Harris0:46

       Yeah, but it's not just water because you're in this enclosed space.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       Yeah.

   30. DHDan Harris0:51

       And you can't see anything or hear anything. It's a weird-
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      aren't aware that it's a completely different psychoactive substance when it's, when you eat it because it's processed by your liver and your body produces something called 11-hydroxy metabolite that's, uh, four to five times more psychoactive than THC. And it's not psychoactive in the smoking version. It's very different.

   2. DHDan Harris15:17

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:17

      That's why a lot of people when they eat brownies-

   4. JWJeff Warren15:19

      Yeah, they eat... It's so strong.

   5. DHDan Harris15:21

      Freak out at the end. Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Yeah.

   7. JWJeff Warren15:21

      You always... Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      I'm sure you... There's a famous 9/11 case where, uh, there's an audio recording of these, uh, cops that took some pot from some kids and made pot brownies of it and then ate it, and then called the police and called 911 on themselves-

   9. DHDan Harris15:37

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       ... because they thought they were dying, but it is one of the greatest audio recordings of all time.

   11. DHDan Harris15:41

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       The guy... He's a cop and he's like-

   13. JWJeff Warren15:44

       That is awesome.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:44

       ... "I think I'm dying. I think time is moving really slow. Please send help."

   15. JWJeff Warren15:48

       Oh my God, that's awesome. (laughs)

   16. DHDan Harris15:49

       So what do you do in those moments? Like, do you have... Because I'm just interested because you've had, from what I can tell, quite a bit of experience with psychedelics and, and also with isolation tanks. What's the right term for it? Isolation tank?

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       Yeah. Sensory deprivation tanks.

   18. DHDan Harris16:02

       Sensory deprivation tanks. So what do you do when the little imp in your head starts telling you, like, the world's ending or time is passing slow?

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       You just let it... Just let it go. You have to just relax. I mean, I've been there 100 times, more. You know, many more than 100 times really, but where you're really nervous and really scared. But the, what compounds it is trying to control it. What compounds it is trying to wrestle the moment away from this experience and just taking control of it and trying to sober yourself up. "No, fuck this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna... You know, I gotta, I gotta get, get in control of the situation." And th- that freak out is really what compounds it. That's where the, that's the root of all, you know, air quotes, bad trips-

   20. DHDan Harris16:43

       Definitely.

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       ... come from, is this desire to control and-

   22. DHDan Harris16:45

       Failure to surrender.

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       Yeah, you gotta surrender. You gotta relax and-

   24. DHDan Harris16:49

       Yeah. It's resistance.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       Yeah. And nothing's gonna happen to you. You're gonna be fine. You're, it's gonna feel really crazy and you're gonna... The... It brings up memories from years ago, from weird conversations you might have had where you acted poorly, or weird choices that you might have made decades ago, or, you know, things that crossed your mind a couple of days ago that you're embarrassed about. There's all these different things that will come out that will just... Your, your, your brain, your mind, your, your consciousness wants to explore these because it feels that you neglected them or that you put them on the back burner or that you didn't give them enough attention. You didn't give them the a- the attention that they deserve, so they're festering and bouncing around the inside of your mind. And I find that edibles, in particular, it's a, it's a very self-exploratory experience and your brain desperately wants to point out all these areas that it feels that you might have neglected.

   26. DHDan Harris17:45

       Mm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       And that's terrifying for people and you just start really freaking out and, and not to mention the concepts of mortality. You start thinking about your, your children's life and your life and, you know, you get freaked out in there.

   28. DHDan Harris17:58

       Why would you wanna do that?

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Because I think exploring those things makes regular life more, uh, it makes it more palatable, it makes it more relaxed, it makes me... It gives me a perspective. It's almost like having a near-death experience on a regular basis. What you get out of a near-death experience and one of the things that people say is even if it's a near-death experience like, from a, a severe illness or an injury, you, you have a perspective enhancement from that-

   30. DHDan Harris18:27

       Mm-hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   ... happiness, whatever that…

   1. JWJeff Warren30:00

      which is that the mind is trainable. Now, we are ... You, you describe, I think, very accurately the ruts in which many of us find ourselves or don't even know we're in, but the good news is that there are ways to retrain the mind. We ... And I ha- I didn't know that until my late 30s when I started reading books about Buddhism, um, and all the things we want the most, calm, patience, compassion, generosity-

   2. DHDan Harris30:28

      ... happiness, whatever that means. Uh, these are s- these aren't factory settings, non-negotiable factory settings. These are skills that can be trained, that you can take responsibility for, just the way you take responsibility for your body in the gym. And there are lots of ways to train them. We... You know, Jeff and I, obviously talk a lot about meditation. But, uh, you're, you've talked about other ways to do it as well, from martial arts to... And, and there's now been a lot of... There's a growing body of research about psychedelics as well. I th- uh, it was obvious to me from being in the isolation to- from the sensory deprivation tank, that that is a training too. There are lots of ways to get at it. But the fundamental good news is, you aren't stuck with the patterns that are making you miserable.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:09

      Yeah. You're n- you're definitely not stuck. And, um, I think that all these things are related. And I think that even running, even-

   4. DHDan Harris31:17

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:17

      ... and like exercise-

   6. DHDan Harris31:18

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:18

      ... yoga-

   8. DHDan Harris31:19

      Yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:19

      ... I think- Mm-hmm. ... in particular, all these-

   10. DHDan Harris31:20

       Definitely.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       ... things that are difficult, when you do these difficult things, you're stressing your mind, or I should say, not even stressing your mind, o- o- exercising your mind.

   12. DHDan Harris31:30

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:30

       And exercising your body's ability to manage intense situations. Like, yoga poses are very intense.

   14. DHDan Harris31:37

       Yeah.

   15. JWJeff Warren31:37

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:37

       Especially hot yoga.

   17. JWJeff Warren31:38

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DHDan Harris31:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan31:38

       It's hard. It's very difficult. It's very testing. And in doing so, you, you lessen the stress of regular life.

   20. JWJeff Warren31:46

       Exactly. You're tie-

   21. JRJoe Rogan31:48

       Unless-

   22. JWJeff Warren31:48

       You're, you're tied up in a reef knot-

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:49

       Yeah.

   24. JWJeff Warren31:50

       ... and if you can be-

   25. DHDan Harris31:50

       (laughs)

   26. JWJeff Warren31:50

       ... equanimous with this ridiculous pose where you're shaking with exertion, then how much more equanimous can you be? How much more present and open can you be in your life?

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:58

       Yeah.

   28. JWJeff Warren31:59

       It's the same thing.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:59

       100%.

   30. DHDan Harris31:59

       Do you think most people know how to translate what they're learning in something like... So c- because for me, the, what, what broke through about meditation was it was so obvious how to translate what I was learning-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   (inhales deeply) That's increasing the…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:01

   2. DHDan Harris45:01

      (inhales deeply) That's increasing the degree of difficulty to levels-

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      Yeah.

   4. DHDan Harris45:03

      ... that I would not want to explore.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:05

      That's ... That, that's about a-

   6. DHDan Harris45:06

      That's testing the mind. Yeah. Talk about an isolation tank. Yeah, exactly.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:08

      That's, uh ... But it also ... It's freeing in a way because you're so comfortable that experience of like giving into the m- to the marijuana.

   8. DHDan Harris45:17

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:17

      Like giving into the, the, the THC where you just k- ... Sort of like float away on it and don't question it.

   10. DHDan Harris45:23

       Yeah, it's like- But as you were high backstage getting ready to do your Netflix special, and I would imagine that's a pretty stressful environment because they're taping this thing. It's gonna be your special. It's a big deal.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:31

       Yeah.

   12. DHDan Harris45:32

       Did you not have a moment of like, "Holy shit, I probably shouldn't have ... I shouldn't have smoked that joint."

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:36

       No, no. No, it's fun. It's just like ... This is like a v- ... An incredibly privileged position I find myself in. Like this, this whole thing is amazing. It's a crazy wild ride. So I'm about to do the wildest part of the wild ride, film a Netflix special. And, uh, just it's just joy. It's just taking it all in and going, "This is so ..." Like all the hard work is done. The material's (coughs) in place. The, the writing has been done. The rehearsal's been done. There's been hundreds and hundreds of sets. Everything's tightened up and all the notes are in place, and I've run it 100 times. And by the time you saw the film, the Netflix special was mostly the fourth show of four tapings.

   14. DHDan Harris46:22

       Oh, okay, okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       So I've already taped three tapings. So I've already got it in the can. So there's ... Most of the pressure's off, so it's just like a regular show almost.

   16. DHDan Harris46:29

       Gotcha, okay.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       Yeah. So it's just, just happiness. Just let it, let it happen.

   18. DHDan Harris46:36

       No, you seem happy w- while watching it.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       It was fun, yeah. It's a good time. (coughs) But it's one of those weird things where, you know, um, standup, live standup is, is weird itself because, you know, you're dealing with, uh, all these factors, the people's consciousness. You're, you're trying to manage your material as well as bring them in and make sure your timing is right and everything's smooth. And then on top of that, there's the filming aspect of it. Like this will be locked in and recorded forever.

   20. DHDan Harris47:11

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:11

       Like this is, this is gonna go online and then people will have copies of it, and then it will be l- ... This is, this is your material. This is your thought process. Like do you have this ironed down? Do you have this edited and parsed and sectioned? And have you thoroughly examined it? Have you used the correct economy of words? Have you, have you boiled it down into the best possible version of itself?

   22. DHDan Harris47:36

       It's so funny with standup though because you watch it as a, as a ... Because I've never done standup, but you watch it as a consumer. It looks casual, it looks off the cuff.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:44

       It has to be.

   24. DHDan Harris47:45

       But there's an enormous amount of work that goes into it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:47

       But it's both casual and off the cuff, and incredibly well thought out and rehearsed. And it has to be both of those things.

   26. DHDan Harris47:56

       But don't you have to ... So you prepare like crazy so you, you got that, but then when you're actually there, isn't there a c- a certain amount of just having to let go and try ... And be actually responsive to what's happening in the audience, to ... I mean, that must be the skill. It's like you do the preparation so you can almost let go of it.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:11

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's both. You know, like you have to be prepared but you also have to be loose. And you, you have to be completely engrossed in what you're talking about, but also in the moment.

   28. DHDan Harris48:22

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       Yeah. It's tricky. But the bottom line is-... when it's done, it's worth it. Like, all the weirdness of it. Like, when you get it done or something, like, triggered when it was done, I finished it, I was like, "I did it." Like, this is what I wanted to do. Like, I wanted it to, I wanted to accurately represent a real live standup comedy set that feels like any other set that you could catch me in San Francisco on a Saturday night. And so it was that, so it's all worth it.

   30. DHDan Harris48:52

       Yeah. It felt like that.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:10:19

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JWJeff Warren1:00:00

      and it's like you're just letting go of those layers and letting go of those layers until you're just like a pool.

   2. DHDan Harris1:00:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      It's funny because-

   4. JWJeff Warren1:00:06

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

      ... everyone ... We, we all know that we need conscious awareness.

   6. JWJeff Warren1:00:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:10

      We need the, the, the, the ... to be-... here and present, but also that thinking-

   8. JWJeff Warren1:00:17

      (clears throat)

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      ... of conscious awareness, the, the, the, and the control that we try to enact on our environment-

   10. JWJeff Warren1:00:22

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

       ... and all, all the, the, the different ways that the ego forces us to-

   12. JWJeff Warren1:00:26

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

       ... to think, and pushes us, and nudges us. It really is about getting out of your own way-

   14. JWJeff Warren1:00:33

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:33

       ... in a lot of ways, like-

   16. JWJeff Warren1:00:34

       It's a, it's a paradox too, because the, the only way to truly surrender to reality is to not fucking care.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

       (laughs)

   18. JWJeff Warren1:00:42

       It's absolutely true, but ... And that's what's gonna free you up to be the most effective in your caring.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

       Yeah.

   20. JWJeff Warren1:00:47

       And you cannot get around that head fuck, 'cause it is absolutely-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       (laughs)

   22. JWJeff Warren1:00:50

       And that is absolutely true.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

       Yeah. Yeah.

   24. DHDan Harris1:00:52

       So, wait, wait, wait. I mean, this is the thing that people really struggle with, because a lot of people hear, uh, will hear everything you just said and, you know, and all this stuff about Shenzhen, you know, not caring, and think, "Okay, if I meditate-"

   25. JWJeff Warren1:01:06

       Yeah.

   26. DHDan Harris1:01:06

       "... well, I'm gonna be ineffective. I'm not gonna be able to do anything."

   27. JWJeff Warren1:01:09

       But that's what I'm saying is the paradox. It's like the person who's most effective is the person who gives up needing to be effective. It's like you... Because that's how you free up all the energy. It's like if you're trying to control everything all the time, you're gonna be really limited in what you can actually do. If you just let go and let things be as they are, you're kind of like... It's like you're conserving all this deep, deep well of energy that's there. And then, when you really do need to make a move, 'cause it does fucking matter, then you've got the energy to act, and you act in a way that's probably more effective 'cause it's less distorted.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       Yeah.

   29. JWJeff Warren1:01:38

       So it's just skillful use of energy. And that's actually ... That's what I've learned from practice and even from getting older, 'cause I'm 46 now and I don't have the energy I used to have, it's like choosing your battles. And then seeing, like, now I'm like, "That seems really tiring. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna actually just sit here and chill and relax, so I'll have the energy to do what I need to do when I need to do it." That's kind of... That maturity is, sort of, I think, a big part of the, the, the meditative, like, learning.

   30. DHDan Harris1:02:03

       Well said.

Episode duration: 2:30:26