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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1076 - Phil Demers

Phil Demers is a former professional marine mammal trainer and employee at Marineland in Canada. http://savesmooshi.com/

Joe RoganhostPhil Demersguest
Feb 9, 20181h 17mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:18

    Phil “Walrus Whisperer” Demers: how the nickname stuck

    1. JR

      Nice.

    2. PD

      Legit, legit.

    3. JR

      Nice.

    4. PD

      I don't sit on wallets. I don't, I don't play with wallets. Fuck no.

    5. JR

      Well, I started, sorry. You ready? Yeah, yeah. Oh. (laughs)

    6. PD

      Oh, whoops.

    7. JR

      Now you're ready. (laughs) Get ready. I wasn't sure you got up to move cameras around. Phil show me his f- y- you have a, it's a mini fanny pack. It's very small.

    8. PD

      It's, uh-

    9. JR

      It's like you can carry cash-

    10. PD

      I have everything I need.

    11. JR

      ... and a small phone.

    12. PD

      I-

    13. JR

      You can't carry a modern phone. That's like pre-modern phones.

    14. PD

      Uh, the 6 fits in there.

    15. JR

      The 6 Plus would-

    16. PD

      Uh-

    17. JR

      ... be a problem.

    18. PD

      Maybe.

    19. JR

      Bang against your dick.

    20. PD

      (laughs) I gotta tighten her up.

    21. JR

      So what's going on, man? So for everybody who hasn't seen you on the podcast before, let's give them a brief synopsis. You were a trainer at one time at Marineland and-

    22. PD

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      ... you, uh, you're known as the Walrus Whisperer. That's your handle on, uh, Twitter.

    24. PD

      Which I didn't select, by the way.

    25. JR

      You didn't?

    26. PD

      No.

    27. JR

      How'd you get it?

    28. PD

      I was on a TV show called Wipeout!, and it was grassroots as hell in Canada.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. PD

      So basically what they do is they fly you out to Argentina. They, they, they sort of, uh, you rent the, the course. So, and then they, instead of it being, you know, Wipeout whatever country, this time it's Canada. So it was really grassrootsy. And so they told us, "If you guys can, like, help advertise. So get on your Twitters, get on your this, get on your that." They called me Walrus Whisperer. It just made sense to put it. Otherwise-

  2. 1:18 – 2:38

    Why Phil left Marineland: chlorine, broken systems, and animals suffering

    1. JR

      But let's explain w- you worked for Marineland, you got fired, you were, you were taking care of this walrus, and it, it became, like, a, a big cause because a lot of people were concerned about the animals' safety there, and since then they've been cited. Like, what has happened with Marineland?

    2. PD

      Okay, well, so I'll give you a quick rundown. So, um, I worked at Marineland, I was a, uh, killer whale trainer. I was the guy jumping off the killer whales, doing the-

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. PD

      ... flips off dolphins, everything else. Um, I wasn't fired. I quit amidst a, some duress, a difficult period where, and, and I'll elaborate, but basically a water disinfection unit broke down and the resolve wasn't so much to fix it, it was to pump it with more and more chlorine. Basically, it, uh, the way water is disinfected at Marineland, they use, uh, an ozone generator, so they use ozone in conjunction with the chlorine, sort of mitigate the chlorine use. They elected instead, or rather the sole controlling mind elected to put off actually fixing it and let's just, at night they're pumping it with chlorine. Well, you can just imagine the effects. And I'm not talking about a little bit of chlorine. So this was, this was a tough time. So I, so I actually quit. And I actually quit on this-

    5. JR

      Wait a minute, imagine the effects. So it, it hurt the animals?

    6. PD

      Oh, I mean-

    7. JR

      You, we talked about this on the earlier shows, if people wanna go back in time a few years to when you first appeared on the show. Um, there was, like, some serious issues, health issues with dolphins, right?

  3. 2:38 – 5:42

    Smoochy the walrus: imprinting, attachment, and being hidden from the public

    1. PD

      Yeah, their, their skin's peeling off, they're, they've got ulcers. I mean, the sea lions are losing fur in patches, bleeding out. I mean, uh, there's cases of at least one animal died and things started getting real bad. And of course, my walrus in, in all of this is there, and she's in the water as well, so this only compounds the issue. And the thing about the walrus is it's, and I use the word a lot, it's anomalous, my relationship with her. She thinks I'm her mom. It was like a scientific thing that happened, her brain circuitry opens, I imprint on her, so my smell, everything I look like, or, you know, all of her senses-

    2. JR

      'Cause you were there when she was a baby.

    3. PD

      Well, she was actually two years old when it happened, that's what makes it kind of-

    4. JR

      That's not a baby?

    5. PD

      That's not a baby, no.

    6. JR

      How old is that in the walrus world? Like, is it dog years?

    7. PD

      No, she's still young. I mean, she's a tiny-

    8. JR

      Do you know how to have dog years?

    9. PD

      She's babyish, yeah.

    10. JR

      Okay.

    11. PD

      Two years is, is not, it's, it's still young.

    12. JR

      But she's fairly young and you were her caretaker, so she imprinted that you were her parent.

    13. PD

      Well, there was sort of a traumatic thing that happened. We, uh, we were drawing blood from them, because back then, you know, they're not trained to, to, to accept the pain of drawing blood. And so, uh, she wasn't conditioned for this, they were young, we had to get blood. So we were actually doing a job on another walrus and she was sort of loose running out and we were wrestling her down, and, and Smoochy come over and she's climbing, hectic and crazy, and, uh, you know, she's still almost 300 pounds at that point. You know, you gotta move her if she's, if she's climbing all over you, it's, it's a big obstruction. So I sort of put my hands in front of her face, and that's when it happened. I'm telling you, you could, it, uh, it was like a magical moment. All of a sudden something happened, and she just looked at me, her eyes changed, I changed. I was now a different person. I'm now her mom. She was following me. So I walked down away from the scene, she was following me. And from that moment on, she never stopped. And that just sort of became the basis of our relationship is that I've sort of raised her.

    14. JR

      So dude, you put, like, the touch on her?

    15. PD

      (laughs) I put the touch on her, yeah, with these two hands, right here, right in front of her face.

    16. JR

      And what, is that a normal thing with animals?

    17. PD

      Look, I said it, it almost never happens. You hear of animals imprinting on humans a lot of times.

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. PD

      Not usually at, at her age. That was a bit advanced for that to happen.

    20. JR

      Usually it happens when they're very young, right?

    21. PD

      If it's gonna happen, yeah. But again-

    22. JR

      It does, it does happen when people raise bears and a lot of weird animals that you wouldn't ordinarily think as pets, right?

    23. PD

      But I don't know if it would be an actual imprint. Like, the imprint is different. There's one thing of familiarizing with an animal with someone-

    24. JR

      How do you differentiate?

    25. PD

      Well, it's just, it's natural. Oh, it's, um, she's protective of me. She will not leave my side. I mean, I, I can walk to the edge of the, of the earth with her and she'll be beside me. You can't do that with any other animal.

    26. JR

      And is she still in Marineland right now?

    27. PD

      Uh, I, I, yes, I haven't seen any updated photos in some time, so I can't be absolutely sure, but yeah, I'm fairly sure. But she's hidden. They won't, they do not bring her out on display. She's not on display. You're not gonna find her.

    28. JR

      Why?

    29. PD

      They hide, they hide the pinnipeds basically, seals, sea lions, and, uh, walruses. They bring them, in her case, she doesn't perform anymore. When she comes out, she's not reliable. You can't get her to do anything. All she does is goes out on stage and she looks for me frantically, so she's not reliable. So they bring her out between shows occasionally so she can see the sun, and that's it. And so, you know, I've gotta have people in there with video cameras ready and (laughs) I mean, it's tough, but we get the videos. We, I, I get the information I need.

  4. 5:42 – 8:50

    The lawsuit era begins: ‘plotting to steal a walrus’ and legal intimidation tactics

    1. JR

      So what's going on with you and them now? 'Cause there's been a series of lawsuits and this is one of the reasons why you wanted to come in here and talk, right?

    2. PD

      So they've, uh, so they sued me, of course, uh, frivolously. They, they sued me with plotting to steal a walrus is the, is the, their allegation. This was in 2000... This was actually, five-year anniversary comes up on, uh, on Valentine's Day.

    3. JR

      Plotting to steal a walrus. Did you try to get her out of there?

    4. PD

      No. (laughs) If I tried to get her out of there, I'd have her today. No, I wouldn't. I, I have nowhere to put a walrus. Well, that's not true. I do have a river in the front yard, but I, I have no interest in, in releasing her into the Niagara River and then watch her go over the falls. It's- I have no interest in that.

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. PD

      So no, nothing like that. I don't have a beachfront arctic home to carry her to. But yeah, so they started, uh, suing the shit out of anyone who spoke. Anyone who spoke on the record was getting sued. So it wasn't just me, it was a number of people. And, uh, (sighs) yeah, so we just elected to try to fight as long as we could, try to sustain this legal battle because, you know, in lawsuits, you've gotta reveal a lot of information in a lawsuit. It's not fun. Like, this... I mean, Marineland's had everything from my phone to, like, the... I mean, not physically, but I've given everything.

    7. JR

      What do you mean by everything like your phone? You mean phone records?

    8. PD

      All communications I have, everything. Yeah.

    9. JR

      Wait a minute. So if they sue you for trying to take a walrus that you didn't actually try to take, they can get access to your phone records?

    10. PD

      They can ruin your life.

    11. JR

      Yeah. But that doesn't mean anything. They can get access to your phone or why would they have access to your phone records?

    12. PD

      They have lu- they have... I have a legal obligation of giving them anything that is relevant to their claim. So be it communications, be it, uh, photographs.

    13. JR

      Yeah. But what does that... But what does that mean? Does that mean they can read all your text messages, read all your emails, read all... They got it all.

    14. PD

      They can listen. Yeah.

    15. JR

      They know who you've called?

    16. PD

      Just trying to build their case. Everything, yeah.

    17. JR

      Wow.

    18. PD

      It's crazy. And I have zero from them after five years because they're using the system as a means to just simply abuse me and acting the fool as their... lo- as Marineland's legal team does exceptionally well, proves, proved very effective in, you know, abusing a guy like me, whereas a corporation with endless amounts of money just sue the shit out of me.

    19. JR

      So they're basically just suing you to punish you and to try to keep other people from doing the same thing and talking out about them.

    20. PD

      They've sued media, they've sued... They sued an 18-year-old kid from California who didn't... He... It was, it was a yet to be released, uh, project movie he made, almost like a cartoon. He... M- it was in the, uh, in the key of Marineland's... Canada's last remaining orca, Kiska. And, uh, Marineland caught wind of that and they sued him for a million bucks. Of course, I assume that's settled now. I don't know. I... There's no way of knowing because I haven't heard anything of, of it, but...

    21. JR

      And what was their lawsuit based on?

    22. PD

      They, uh, uh, at least in what I... I, I think I just scanned the documents, but they alleged that... I can't remember. They...

    23. JR

      How does that work when they sue someone from California? Does he have to go to Canada?

    24. PD

      That's interesting. I don't know, actually. I... And that's, that was what was so confusing about it all. I was like, jeez, now you're, you're suing Americans and stuff. Like, I don't know if that works. They sued another writer, in fact, as well an, an American writer. Um, uh, they don't give a shit. They'll just sue you.

    25. JR

      But didn't they get, they get fined recently? So didn't something happen along those lines?

  5. 8:50 – 13:41

    Animal cruelty charges and the OSPCA suit: dropped counts, ‘public interest,’ and fallout

    1. PD

      Yeah. They got charged with 11 counts of animal cruelty, uh, a little over a year ago. Um, I was in court, of course.

    2. JR

      Marineland sues OSPCA for 21 million, alleges agency wanted to destroy the theme park.

    3. PD

      So that's where we're going. So basically, down the road, over the course of... Okay. I gotta get into this.

    4. JR

      Okay.

    5. PD

      So the charges, they have 11 charges of animal cruelty. First, they were five... uh, five or six and then an, an additional five or six. Now there's a total of 11 charges for animal cruelty that Marineland has to go to, to criminal court to defend against.

    6. JR

      Okay.

    7. PD

      They drag it on as always. I'm in court every freaking day, you can bet your ass. Um, (laughs) even, even one time there was a, uh... It was a confidential meeting, in fact. It was not for public (laughs) and me and a, a local writer knock on the door. We sort of walk in and the lawyers are looking at us like, "The fuck are you doing here, bro?" We're like, "Hey." Like, "Can we sit in on this?" (laughs) But anyways, so-

    8. JR

      Hold on. I don't know what you just said.

    9. PD

      There was a... And there was... During the negotiations-

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. PD

      ... between the, the, the Crown and the OSPCA for the Crown.

    12. JR

      For the Crown?

    13. PD

      Yeah, the Crown. That's the one who would be laying the charges, the, uh, the animal cruelty charges. So you get charged. You-

    14. JR

      Oh, okay. What is the Crown? What do they...

    15. PD

      The Crown is like the... is the justice. He's like the... essentially the judge.

    16. JR

      Oh. Okay.

    17. PD

      So you're before the judge as the defendant.

    18. JR

      Canadian talk.

    19. PD

      Yes. Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that.

    20. JR

      We don't know what the fuck that means.

    21. PD

      Oh, shit. Well, that-

    22. JR

      The Crown. This could get confusing.

    23. PD

      I'm like, "The, this is the Crown?" He doesn't wear one, but...

    24. JR

      Okay.

    25. PD

      So-

    26. JR

      So it's like Crown land. I know Crown land is public land.

    27. PD

      Yeah. So-

    28. JR

      Right?

    29. PD

      So I imagine that's probably in some capacity-

    30. JR

      Okay.

  6. 13:41 – 14:49

    Bigger picture: why captive cetaceans shouldn’t exist (Blackfish effect and ethics)

    1. JR

      So but the real issue in your mind is the way they treat the animals, the way they run their business. Right? Is that a, is that an accurate-

    2. PD

      Well, I, I would say that I've expanded now into just arguing that those animals should not be in, A, in Marineland's possession, B, altogether.

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. PD

      The whales in pools is done.

    5. JR

      It should be done.

    6. PD

      It's done.

    7. JR

      It should be done. And I think after Blackfish... I mean, before you came on, or when you came on, it was before Blackfish had been released. And then once people saw what actually happens to these super intelligent animals when you lock them up in swimming pools, they, they're starting to realize it. And Sea World's attendance is down, and people are down on the whole idea, especially killer whales. I mean, God, they're just these giant, majestic animals. It seems so fucked up to put them in these tanks.

    8. PD

      And to separate them from families. I mean, the emotional distress-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. PD

      ... they go through. I, I, I'm a firm believer that emotionally we don't even have an... the slightest sense of how complex they can be.

    11. JR

      Right, because they don't have an ability to express themselves to us, other than eating us occasionally-

    12. PD

      And that's-

    13. JR

      ... which killer whales only do in captivity.

    14. PD

      Yeah, there's no, there's no records of, uh, killer whale attacks in the wild on humans.

    15. JR

      Yeah, they fuck people up in captivity though. They're like, "Enough!"

  7. 14:49 – 18:34

    Inside the pool with a pissed-off orca: warning bites, ‘not getting out,’ and trainer risk

    1. PD

      Oh, I've been in the pool with a pissed off killer whale.

    2. JR

      Have you?

    3. PD

      Oh, yeah.

    4. JR

      When?

    5. PD

      I jumped in one time. I was... I'm... I mean, I was stubborn. Yeah, I was a bit of a cowboy as a young guy too and like an adrenaline junkie. I liked to have fun. I liked to jump off the killer whale. I liked her to throw me up high.

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. PD

      So I was having a show with her. Basically the way that shows work-

    8. JR

      How does she... Does she throw you with her tail, or?

    9. PD

      No, on the end of her rostrum, right on the end of her nose. She dunks you. It's called a rocket ride. You get on-

    10. JR

      Uh-huh.

    11. PD

      You get on the front of the whale, as such at the top of the water, and then she starts to pump her tail. And then sh- you dive down with her. She'll follow you everywhere she, everywhere you go.

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. PD

      And then, uh, it's like flying a plane, man. It's amazing. And then you just arc up, and then she just takes you to the moon. And she's screaming underwater. When she's having a good time, or rather when she's expressing herself that she's gonna toss you. This particular time when I, when I was, when I probably shouldn't have gone in the water...

    14. JR

      Why?

    15. PD

      Well, she was pissed. I could see it in her eyes.

    16. JR

      How could you tell that she's pissed?

    17. PD

      You know the animals, like, uh... I mean, that's the, the whole basis of being a trainer is to get to know the animals, know their behavior, know everything about them. You spend a lot of time with them.

    18. JR

      What are the indications?

    19. PD

      So in this case I was... So the way those, the shows work... Uh, I mean they don't, they don't exist anymore. But back in the day was, you work the animal initially just to get a sense of, of their demeanor. So you got them jump in, you got them run around, you get a gauge. You know, you get a good sense of how they are. On that particular day, uh, she just wasn't responding real quick. Her eyes were a little big, big. She wasn't focused on me, she's looking elsewhere. She's sort of drifting off a bit. I just didn't really have her attention. But I think, I don't know what, maybe I had my dad in the crowd or something. I wanted to jump off her. So I look at the senior trainer at the time. She's like, "I don't know, dude, like, you're gonna jump in?" I'm like, "Fuck it, I'm jumping in." I go to jump in. I get to the edge of the pool. She's standing directly above or below me. I dive over her. She, she lunges at me and she snaps. And I see it from below me, like I see under her, that she's jumped up and snapped at me. So now I've... (laughs)

    20. JR

      Snapped at you, like tried to bite you?

    21. PD

      Yeah, she tried to grab me. So now I'm-

    22. JR

      But I feel like if she really wanted to bite you, she would just bite you.

    23. PD

      Oh, yeah, well, so, so now I'm-

    24. JR

      So it was a warning bite or was it a bite bite?

    25. PD

      Pro- definitely a warning bite, otherwise I wouldn't be here today.

    26. JR

      Right, she... If you... That's what I'm saying, like it's not-

    27. PD

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      ... she would miss.

    29. PD

      No, she's not gonna miss. So, and, and so what happens, so it gets further. So now I'm in the water and I'm now at the top of the water and s- and staring down at her. She's now inverted upside down and she's swimming, and she's circling the pool, circling the pool.

    30. JR

      Upside down?

  8. 18:34 – 24:51

    Medication, Valium, and appetite control: the hidden pharmacology of marine parks

    1. PD

      Well that kill- that particular killer whale, Kiska, she's the only one left in Canada. There's no more in Canada. There's not ever going to be. Marineland's never gonna get another one. Uh, she's been sort of unresponsive for a long time. She's on a lot of medication. Uh-

    2. JR

      Medication?

    3. PD

      Oh, tons of medication.

    4. JR

      Like, what kind of medication do you put a killer whale on?

    5. PD

      Well, she's got different, uh ... I mean, you g- gauge the blood and you start putting them on antiobitics, antibiotic. You get them on, uh, um, uh, uh ...

    6. JR

      How do you take blood from a killer whale?

    7. PD

      Flip them over and they got a, they've got a, uh ... The ... In their tail, there's a series of large veins. You just roll them over.

    8. JR

      And they let you?

    9. PD

      Yeah. Everything's, everything is ch- everything is trained in that they are gonna provide it voluntarily. So ... And it takes a long time to train these things, but you train them so it's ... And you just prick it. You just literally grab this little needle, you put it in the, in the vein.

    10. JR

      And they don't get pissed at you?

    11. PD

      They get pissed if you miss and you keep trying. (laughs)

    12. JR

      Oof.

    13. PD

      Don't do that. (laughs)

    14. JR

      Fuck.

    15. PD

      Yeah, I've seen, uh ... It, it happens.

    16. JR

      But they let you take their blood?

    17. PD

      If they're healthy and responsive, yeah, of course. If they're not, there's nothing that's gonna get you to the e- get them to the edge of the pool, but ...

    18. JR

      So you, you take their blood and then they ... What do they find? What's wrong with them?

    19. PD

      Yeah, you send, send it to the lab. You wanna look at cortisol levels, how the stress is. You wanna look at white blood count, see if they're fighting any infections. Uh, you know, there's always, uh ... You know, in her case, there's always something. A lot of the animals are, in fact, on Valium, a lot of different psychotic-

    20. JR

      What?

    21. PD

      Yeah, tons.

    22. JR

      What?

    23. PD

      Yeah, tons. That, that is, like, rampant use in, uh, in, in, in the aqu- in aquariums.

    24. JR

      What?

    25. PD

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      Valium?

    27. PD

      Yeah. Marineland accused me of stealing Valium in, in fact, in the lawsuit as well, which is absolutely not true.

    28. JR

      Is this, is this used everywhere?

    29. PD

      Yeah, absolutely.

    30. JR

      Or is it just Marineland or-

  9. 24:51 – 37:21

    ‘Beluga rodeo’ and brutal handling: dropping water, injuries, and the Peanut story

    1. PD

      If neces- oh, the injections. I mean, that's a process. The things that I've seen and done that were normal to me and normal to anyone who's working there is insane. I mean we use-

    2. JR

      Like what?

    3. PD

      ... we used to drop, (laughs) we used to call this Beluga Rodeo. And at Marineland, Marineland is notorious for having like, I, we have, I say we, uh, over 50, I bet they're pushing 60 belugas at this point. And this is why it's so important to start changing these fucking laws because this is absurd. And, uh, and it creates a whole world of problems, of course, socially for these animals. Uh, babies get killed by males. It's- it's-

    4. JR

      Oh.

    5. PD

      Yeah, it's gross, it's bad. It's not manageable. Nonetheless, what we would do is, we would drop the water in one of the pools, so you'd have, I mean, anywhere between 10 and 15 belugas flat on their stomach. There's a grate at the bottom of the pool.

    6. JR

      They can't move.

    7. PD

      They can't move. Well, if they wanna move, they can.

    8. JR

      But they're flopping around.

    9. PD

      But it means they're gonna get fucked up bad.

    10. JR

      Like scratched up by the- the ground?

    11. PD

      So if you've got maybe a- a little bit of water, we, we've tried different things to try to mitigate how damaged up they got.

    12. JR

      Right.

    13. PD

      There was one time, I mean, they get carved up. We used to call that, I mean, it's morbid but we used to joke around, we used to call it the Caesar water because it was blood red by the time we were done-

    14. JR

      Ugh.

    15. PD

      ... with these procedures. I'm telling you, Joe, it would make you sick. It was, the- the water was thick of blood.

    16. JR

      Ugh.

    17. PD

      And so one time, there was a, there was a beluga named Peanut, and she started to panic. And what she did was she repeatedly slammed her tail in a panic.

    18. JR

      Ugh.

    19. PD

      She started to bounce around like a fucking basketball. She was getting air three feet in the air. She was, you know, she's probably a 3,000-pound, uh, whale, 2,000-pound whale or something, so you're not going to stop that. But we tried, of course, we jump on her. Chunks of her tail, I'm not joking, chunks of her tail flying off, flying off.

    20. JR

      (sighs)

    21. PD

      If anyone goes to Marineland, go ask about Peanut and go take a look at her- at her tail. There's nothing left of it. She's got like a nub that's sort of like, uh, jagged on the bottom. She was fucked up after that. Again, lots of meds, lots of recovery, but it was foul, man.

    22. JR

      So is this- this benzodiazepine, is this a- a recent thing that they started doing to-

    23. PD

      No, I wouldn't say so. I- I can't vouch for any time before 2000 when I started. But for sure once we were there, I mean they were all the time.

    24. JR

      So- so when you go to SeaWorld and you see those killer whales and dolphins doing shows, they're just pilled up out of their fucking minds.

    25. PD

      It's a- it's hardly a sembl- it's merely a semblance of their wild counterparts. You're not going there and seeing a dynamic animal no more. You're seeing a depressed, drugged, uh, confused probably, frustrated animal. And (sighs) I mean, again, what those- what those animals go through, it's difficult for people to give a shit about anything if it doesn't affect them personally. If you see an animal going through this, it, you- you- you feel it. You start to appreciate-

    26. JR

      You know what's weird?

    27. PD

      ... how fucked up that is.

    28. JR

      Like ca- (sighs) I feel weird even calling them animals. I feel like, um, like killer whales and dolphins in particular are so fucking intelligent, it's- it's hard to call them animals. I mean, obviously humans are animals as well, but they are their own thing. I mean, those marine mammals are their own thing.

    29. PD

      They have their own world and they dominate in it.

    30. JR

      Yeah, and in their world, man, it's a fucking amazing world. This, they- they're one of the only animals that we know of that has a really complex language. And we can't even decipher it.

  10. 37:21 – 40:43

    Escapes and accidents: dolphins jumping out, slings, cranes, and near-disasters

    1. PD

      It, I, uh, imagine that they'll make certain that that's not gonna be the case, but i- uh, well, they can. I've seen, I've seen dolphins jump out of the pool. (laughs) That's crazy.

    2. JR

      Really?

    3. PD

      Yeah, yeah. I, I got rushed in one morning to, uh, I got called in because a, because a dolphin jumped out of the pool. (laughs) Holy shit, that, I mean, that's a wake-up call when you get there and you see this thing flopping around and you're like, "Jesus Christ." And I didn't-

    4. JR

      What do you do?

    5. PD

      Well, you get the sling together, first off. There's, you know, we have these different slings and things that, you know, to move these dolphins. So I was, I was alone and I was-

    6. JR

      How much does a dolphin weigh?

    7. PD

      Yeah, like 500 pounds, 600 pounds in this case. She was a, she was a decent sized female so I went and grabbed a, a kid out in the ticket booth or some shit 'cause it was too early in the morning. I had no staff there. Rush him in, I'm like, "Dude," I got two guys, I'm like, "We gotta get this dolphin in." These guys, I mean, if you've never done that before, y- your jaw's on the floor.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. PD

      I fucking had these two steel poles over my shoulders, dolphin in the sling, lifting her up. I swear to you, man, my back went backwards like this. It was the heaviest thing I'd ever carried but we got her back in. It was crazy, but yeah-

    10. JR

      Wow.

    11. PD

      ... it jumped out of the pool. It was crazy, in fact, there was a time in the summer, I remember, where one of our dolphins was teetering on the edge. What she would do is she'd, you know, they're, they're always spy-hopping like this, looking over the edge at the crowd.

    12. JR

      Explain that to people that are just listening-

    13. PD

      Okay, so-

    14. JR

      ... 'cause a lot of people are just listening.

    15. PD

      ... so imagine there's, like, a short wall, something that-

    16. JR

      Okay.

    17. PD

      ... you know, they can look over. So they're-

    18. JR

      Right.

    19. PD

      ... they're sort of spy-hopping. They're spying up to look.

    20. JR

      Okay.

    21. PD

      One of our dolphins learned that she can actually jump up on the ledge and balance. Now, she was on, that, that's, like, a eight-foot drop to the concrete on the other side of this pool.

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. PD

      She's up there posing. I'm hearing the crowd. I'm back, I'm backstage.

    24. JR

      Oh.

    25. PD

      I hear the crowd going crazy. I'm like, "What is this?" I go up there, she's having fun doing this. Holy shit. That's the dolphin that jumped out. So what we did was I said, "We gotta take her out of this pool." We took her out, put her in the back pool where no one would see her, of course, and that's... The next day she actually jumped. So she'd be dead today if we hadn't have moved her.

    26. JR

      Oh.

    27. PD

      Then, of course, all Marineland did was put up, like, more, you know, more obstruction things to keep, keep them in the pool, so...

    28. JR

      Now, when you find her outside of the pool, how long had she been outside for?

    29. PD

      She was still wet so it wasn't so bad, but one, uh, one dolphin was, we found her, that she'd, she'd, she got stuck on the stage overnight and when we got there, her skin had become so dry that it was f- it was starting to crack. It was kind of fucked up. She actually has this permanent scar from her having dried out-

    30. JR

      Her skin dried out?

  11. 40:43 – 46:33

    Marineland’s decline and the owner’s ‘fuck you money’: attendance collapse and local politics

    1. JR

      Now, has any of this hurt their business?

    2. PD

      Attendance is abysmal over there. They're crushed. I've, I live right... I s- I watch the sun set over Marineland from my front yard, it's a beautiful sight. I drive by, of course, just about every day. That, their attendance is rocked. And Niagara Falls, which is where, which is where Marineland is, is booming. The tourism is through the roof. You can't... It's shoulder to shoulder over there and Marineland's seeing none of it, it's-

    3. JR

      And you think it's because people know about the conditions there?

    4. PD

      Oh, absolutely. Oh, I got a lot of support in the local community, like, people know exactly what's going on. Uh, tourists, it's a little more difficult and, you know, Niagara Falls welcomes millions of them, so you're gonna get a fraction of that, but it is a fraction. Marineland is not benefiting from the booming, uh, tourism. They're, they're on their way out. The ti- they're on a clock for sure, for sure. I'd be shocked to, to hear them opening in 2019. Uh, I'm not gonna make that prediction, but I would be shocked. It's, it's that bad. But to be fair, there's no investors at Marineland. It's one sole controlling mind owner who started with nothing, started with 2,000 bucks, built this thing. He is indebted to nobody. He's, you know, he's cash rich, of course, and he's got a lot of "fuck you" money and not a lot of time, so he's out to fuck shit up. I, I wouldn't be surprised to-

    5. JR

      Not a lot of time in life, you mean?

    6. PD

      He's, like, 84 years old now.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. PD

      And so, uh, I would, I wouldn't be surprised to, to think that he's rationalized in his mind to just fucking sewer this thing, like, destroy (laughs) you know, destroy all, all our lives for having spoken out, but just tank the park in the process, fuck it.

    9. JR

      Wow.

    10. PD

      Yeah. He's very defiant. He's a, he's a, he's a very, uh, paranoid and, and defiant man, and so, you know, uh, at 84 years old, what else does he have left to accomplish I guess?

    11. JR

      So you were saying they had 50 beluga whales?

    12. PD

      50 plus, maybe even 60 at this point.

    13. JR

      Beluga whales are huge.

    14. PD

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      What, what does a big one weigh?

    16. PD

      (sighs) I don't know if we ever mi- if we ever actually weighed our big males.

    17. JR

      If you had to guess?

    18. PD

      Like, 4,000 pounds, maybe 5,000.

    19. JR

      (Blast noise) You got 50 of those?

    20. PD

      50 of 'em, yeah.

    21. JR

      That's insane.

    22. PD

      Try catching one.

    23. JR

      Oh, I don't wanna try.

    24. PD

      I, I used to get tasked with-

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. PD

      ... here's your, here's your scuba gear, here's a, uh, a net the size of a football field-

    27. JR

      Oh my God.

    28. PD

      Go catch that beluga whale.So, me and my buddies would be like, "Okay."

    29. JR

      (laughs)

    30. PD

      "Here we go." Oh, dude. Uh, you'd be s- you'd be ... It, it really would be amazing to be able to capture the things we've done on video.

  12. 46:33 – 53:32

    Mass graves, land-animal cruelty, and disappearing evidence

    1. PD

      I sure do. I had to dig up a dead killer whale to extract a portion of its brain that we'd missed during a necropsy.

    2. JR

      You had to dig it up?

    3. PD

      Yeah. It was, uh-

    4. JR

      In the ground?

    5. PD

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      It was in the ground?

    7. PD

      Yeah. It sh- He had been buried for like 10 days too.

    8. JR

      Whoa.

    9. PD

      Oh, dude.

    10. JR

      How'd he die?

    11. PD

      Uh, I can't remember how Kandu died exactly, but he did, he died, like, pretty young. Um, I can't remember exactly what the, what the final ... We, we, we never got that information as, as trainers. You sort of a- were always told, oh, it was ... You know, it's always, uh, meningitis. It's, "Oh, he died of meningitis." Or, or they would say, "Oh, twisted intestine," or something. They always came up with things that you just ... You know, it kept you asking questions rather than feeling like anything was ever conclusive in that regard. But on this particular case, or in this particular case, the vet had pulled me aside and said, "Okay, I gotta ask you something fucked up. Can you go get two people? Suit them up. We gotta go get a piece of the brain we missed o- of Kandu." I'm just like, "Uh, I can't possibly impose upon someone to do that. I can't."

    12. JR

      How deep had it been buried?

    13. PD

      Like, it was about six to eight feet. Uh, he was ...

    14. JR

      And you can just do that in a yard? They allow you to just bury it in the yard?

    15. PD

      Marine Land has mass graves in the back.

    16. JR

      Oh.

    17. PD

      In the exact place that they're claiming development now, which I've got some overhead-

    18. JR

      Oh.

    19. PD

      ... shots. They're actually, like, paving roads pretty close to it, to where the, the, the bodies are buried.

    20. JR

      And what ... Like, how many different things you think are buried back there?

    21. PD

      Thousands.

    22. JR

      What?

    23. PD

      Thousands. I mean, just in deer alone, forget about it. I mean, Marineland breeds more deer than, uh-

    24. JR

      Why do they breed deer?

    25. PD

      Because you got, because you got a whole park of animals, different animals. That's where the ch- the animal cruelty charges stem from, was actually ... It was not marine mammals. 'Cause there's no laws protecting them, so th- you know, they continue to live in a void of protection. But the, the, the, the deers, the bears, the-

    26. JR

      There's no laws in Canada?

    27. PD

      In Canada, yeah.

    28. JR

      Oh, wow.

    29. PD

      Yet. It's coming, man. (laughs) I know I've been talking about this for five years. We're almost there, but look, I'm up against the fucking wall.

    30. JR

      How long ago did you first come on here?

  13. 53:32 – 1:03:01

    Five years of legal war: anti-SLAPP limits, funding the fight, and what Phil wants most

    1. JR

      So you've been embroiled in these lawsuits for five years now?

    2. PD

      Five years, on-on... They sued me on Valentine's Day of, uh, 2013. Yeah.

    3. JR

      And nothing's been resolved?

    4. PD

      The- The only way that there could be a resolve at this point is if I were to sign a document, uh, and I'm- I'm- I'm assuming at this point, because Marineland's said nothing in terms of any type of agreement. But, you know, down the road, it's, their objective is to shut me up. They wanna wipe out the last 20 years of my life, they don't want me to open my mouth about anything in the, of course, in the last five years, and then the 12 prior, you know, when I sort of revealed everything that was going on. They're trying to shut me up. They want me, they want an injunction, a permanent injunction, or I assume they would, that uh, to keep me from being able to go to the park. Well, this becomes very conflicting for me because they have a, my walrus sort of hostage there. And I do, I do dream of a day of being reunited with her, and I imagine that would have to take place on Marineland property someday, so it's really a, I'm not prepared to sign anything. In fact, I told my lawyer just last week, it's a non-starter. And I'll remind Marineland now, non-starter. They'll never shut me up. I'm not signing it. I'll have to eat shit forever, but I'm not gonna sign it.

    5. JR

      So where do you anticipate this all going? I mean, you've been in a l- prolonged legal battle for five years now. Wh- Where do you anticipate this going?

    6. PD

      And so, in April, so the last time I was here two years ago, I, you know, I solicited some- Some- Some help, resources, to be able to pursue Marineland's owner in that I want him to be examined in court, much like I have. In the same capacity that I had to forfeit all of my communications, I want the same for the corporation, and I wanna examine Marineland's owner as representative. This proved very difficult. It took, uh-... I mean, we got the order only just last April to examine him. We got- we won the order. And since then, we've tried multiple times to schedule, and now we're- we're almost at a year now of trying to schedule this man to come in f- for examinations, and he's not shown up a couple times now. And so, at some point, if Marineland doesn't want the facts out there, and that's what I'm pursuing, I want the facts out there, they're gonna have to- they're gonna have to settle. And so how that ends with me, I don't know. I'm not looking for money. I- I could give a shit about trying to get rich in this thing.

    7. JR

      Are you trying to sue them for money, though?

    8. PD

      I'm suing them, yeah, but it's-

    9. JR

      How much?

    10. PD

      Well, the numbers don't matter.

    11. JR

      What is it?

    12. PD

      But it's like a million and a half or something. They defamed the shit out of me, let's be honest. It- it's pretty absurd. Uh, but again ... (sighs)

    13. JR

      So would the million and a half be-

    14. PD

      I'll never get it. I'll never see it.

    15. JR

      But would it be, uh, predicated on you would have to sh- shut your mouth?

    16. PD

      If it wasn't something that went t- th- w- if it wasn't a judgment that the judge made. For instance, if we went to trial, the judge makes their decision then.

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. PD

      If we settle beforehand, it's because everyone wants to wash their hands and walk away. Marineland's not gonna wash their hands of- of me unless, I- I feel, unless I've got them properly cornered. The only way they wanna get me is, well, of course they wanna ruin me, right? Save the-

    19. JR

      How could you properly corner them? Like what would be-

    20. PD

      Well, if Marineland's owners missed a couple examinations now, how many until I can go in and actually file a motion to have the entire, uh, statement of claim dismissed? Well, the fact is, pretty soon. So my objective is to go and get this lawsuit thrown out, at which point they've only got the- I've got the counterclaim for them to work with. They're not suing me no more. Now who's got the upper hand? That's my dream, of course.

    21. JR

      That's your dream. But if- if that doesn't happen, I mean, it seems like five years is a long time to be in a prolonged legal battle. Like at what point in time b- does it become so absurd that the court throws it out?

    22. PD

      So it just happened now. It's actually a new rule that as of February 2018, any lawsuit that hasn't been, uh, scheduled for, uh, for trial was administratively dismissed. It's a new law. And so ... but that doesn't affect mine unfortunately, because we actually fought to get a case management, uh, judge on our case b- on my case, because like I said, Marineland's acting the fool. I can't seem to get in front of a judge. Everything's a joke and a half. So we- we went and won that. Again, it took a long time. You know what's th- the crazy thing about these lawsuits? And I- I see now, of course, uh, uh, in 2012 I was a lot more naive, but all of the wins that I get in court cost me. So for instance, I- I- I defend a motion against Marineland, it costs me $7,500. The judge says, "Okay. Phil wins this round. Uh, let's give him, uh, some money back and a partial indemnity." He gets 3,500 bucks back. Still just cost me four grand. Marineland's owner misses an examination, as an example. I've gotta get what's called a certificate of nonattendance. I gotta send a lawyer, 1,200 bucks. So it's- i- (sighs)

    23. JR

      And how is all this funded now?

    24. PD

      Oh, I have a public GoFundMe, of course. I've had several, uh-

    25. JR

      And how do people, if they wanna donate, 'cause I'm sure a lot of people listening to this like, "Fuck this, man. I gotta help this guy."

    26. PD

      (sighs) savesmooshy.com. I've got my documentary on there, which I'd like to touch on a little bit. It's great. Have you had a chance to look at it? Watch it?

    27. JR

      No.

    28. PD

      Okay. Well, if you get- if you manage to, it's- it's pretty- it's good. These kids from, uh, Ryerson University did it. They're brave kids. And how- how I know it's a very effective law- or, uh, documentary is that Marineland didn't sue them. They know the danger of this documentary. They know how powerful it is, and they didn't sue them. And that's how I know that this is powerful. There's no reason-

    29. JR

      And so they decided that it's so good (claps hands) they have to leave it alone and just ignore it, because if they sue them, then it'll put attention to it.

    30. PD

      Exactly. And so they made a small statement saying, "Oh, this is Phil just doing what Phil does." (laughs) And it's funny because the Ryerson students turn around to me, they go, "But that's not true. Like, we came to you." They just want the- actually wanted to do a five-minute, uh, personal profile of me. They said, li- "Look, we wanna just do a f- a- a quick interview with you." I'm like, "Sure." That morning, I don't know, they caught me on the right day. I just, you know, I- we spoke for hours, and then they sort of got back and said, "You know, we wanna do, like, maybe something more with this." I'm like, "S- you guys, do whatever the hell you want." I mean, I'm- I'm- I'm an open book. I give everything away. You want something? Here. Go. Go nuts with it. And so they did, and they did something great. It's really good. And, uh, yeah, so, you know, definitely- definitely please check that out. You know-

Episode duration: 1:17:55

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