Joe Rogan Experience #1164 - Mikhaila Peterson

1. 0:02 – 1:19

   Growing up with Jordan Peterson and watching him become famous

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Five, four, three, two, one. And we're live? Yes. Hello.

   2. MPMikhaila Peterson0:11

      Hello.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      What's happening?

   4. MPMikhaila Peterson0:13

      Not much. I'm excited to be here.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      I'm excited to have you here. Uh, your father speaks very highly of you.

   6. MPMikhaila Peterson0:18

      That's good.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      What is it like to have Jordan Peterson as a dad? Is it weird? Do you have to check yourself constantly and make sure you're on, you know-

   8. MPMikhaila Peterson0:25

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      ... on steady ground and-

   10. MPMikhaila Peterson0:27

       I didn't-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       ... don't say anything ridiculous?

   12. MPMikhaila Peterson0:28

       No. Not at all. Not at all. I didn't realize it was weird until I went away to university, and then kind of s- so, like, just was away for a while, and then when I came back to the house especially, 'cause the house is full of, like, paintings and masks and statues and, like, 32 different paint colors, and I came back and was like, "Oh, maybe he's a bit eccentric."

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       (laughs)

   14. MPMikhaila Peterson0:50

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       No, he's definitely eccentric. Um, we were talking off-air about what it was like to watch your dad become famous and, and become famous in, in his 50s, right? Like-

   16. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       ... I hope-

   18. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01

       Like, 54, 55.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       That's when he became famous. Before that, relatively unknown, respected professor. One issue with this one transgender bill, the, the, the preferred pronouns bill.

   20. MPMikhaila Peterson1:14

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       And then boom, off to the races.

   22. MPMikhaila Peterson1:17

       Yeah. It was-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Is this strange?

2. 1:19 – 4:43

   Media incentives, clickbait, and misrepresentation of controversial figures

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson1:19

      It was ... Yeah, it was super weird, especially how the media was portraying him and how what was actually happening at the events wasn't what was being portrayed in the media. So that was weird to watch, and then people recognizing him on the street is strange. It's ... Yes, it's-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:34

      When you say-

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson1:35

      It's been weird.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:35

      ... what, what happened in real life was not was, what was being portrayed, like, what was different?

   5. MPMikhaila Peterson1:41

      Um, mostly what he was saying. So most of what he's said is on film anyway.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:45

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MPMikhaila Peterson1:46

      So you can go to YouTube and see what he's been saying. Like, not, there's not, like, some secret that's going around. But what's been portrayed has been so much more negative than what he's actually said. Or they'll take, like, sound bites and just weave a story that isn't quite true, which I didn't re- for some reason I ... Now it looks silly, but for some reason I just thought that what the media was portraying was honest and-

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:08

      Always.

   9. MPMikhaila Peterson2:09

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

   11. MPMikhaila Peterson2:12

       Yeah. And it's not.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       Well, they're writers, you know? And what's ... There's a real issue today, um, that, that issue I've talked about this before, but the issue is clicks. Um-

   13. MPMikhaila Peterson2:22

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       ... it's not just about what's the facts of the story. It's about these publications are struggling to stay alive, and one of the only ways that they can get people to click on stories is salacious headlines, real, make things really clickbait-y, and that's what they focus on. And they focus on negative aspects that are gonna get people riled up. They have to have an angle. And I've talked to people who are writers who, um, will write something, and then I'll, I'll talk to them, and I'll say, "Hey, man, this is not what we talked about or what happened." And they said, "I'm gonna be honest with you. I didn't even write that."

   15. MPMikhaila Peterson2:55

       Wow.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:55

       "The headline was completely written by the editor, so the editor came in, changed it all up, changed this, switched the, put some dot, dot, dots out of things," you know, like the ... So cut off sentences-

   17. MPMikhaila Peterson3:06

       Wow.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:06

       ... so that they seemed more, um, you know, just more controversial than they really are because they didn't allow the counterpoint of ... You know if sometimes you say something and then you say, "Or, it could be this"? Well, the, "Or it could be this" part is cut out. You know, they-

   19. MPMikhaila Peterson3:20

       Oh.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:20

       They do things like that just to stay alive because I think when ... I mean, really big publications, whether it's The New York Times or, you know, The Boston Globe, like big publications are struggling for their life right now because people don't want to buy newspapers anymore. And, you know, and getting people to read things online is very difficult, and you have to, you have to do something salacious. You have to do something that's enticing for them to click on it.

   21. MPMikhaila Peterson3:44

       Yeah, I guess, but I ... Wouldn't you say that's just driving them down?

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       Yeah. Yeah, I would. Yeah, they're fucked.

   23. MPMikhaila Peterson3:50

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       It's, it's a bad p- place to be.

   25. MPMikhaila Peterson3:53

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:53

       And I think it's ... You know, it opens up the door for alternative media. Um-

   27. MPMikhaila Peterson3:59

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       But some of those alternative media sources don't have journalistic integrity either, so then it becomes a real issue, you know? Um, that's, that, that's a problem with a lot of online news shows is, like, they take a very obvious editorial spin as well on the news, and if you just read or watch their show, you would go, "Oh. Well, it's this way because these guys are saying it's this way."

   29. MPMikhaila Peterson4:24

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:24

       But it might not be that way. There's no real objective source. It's very hard to find a good obj- objective source. I mean, sometimes I count on The New York Times, but there's been some things that I've read from The New York Times that I know are not accurate.
3. 4:43 – 7:54

   The 'enforced monogamy' / incel controversy and how narratives distort meaning

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:43

      Well, he didn't make it any easier on himself by using that forced monogamy argument-

   2. MPMikhaila Peterson4:48

      Term? No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      Yeah, enforced monogamy argument or term 'cause I don't, I don't ... Even with the, when you understand it as a psychological concept, that it is a, uh, culturally enforced idea, I still don't think that applies to incels. I don't. I just don't think it has-

   4. MPMikhaila Peterson5:04

      Mm, no.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:05

      I don't think it makes any difference at all, and he and I discussed it on the podcast. I'm like, "You're not ... Just because you say it's a good idea and the culture agrees that it's a good idea for people to be monogamous, I don't necessarily think that that is gonna help these guys at all."

   6. MPMikhaila Peterson5:19

      I don't think we know what's gonna help those guys.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:22

      Yeah. Well, obviously they're all individuals and their situations vary, but what, what we're talking about for people like, "What the fuck are they talking about?" There was a-

   8. MPMikhaila Peterson5:32

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:32

      ... a quote in The New York Times where this woman was asking him what to do about these incels, which are involuntary celibates, and one of them had driven a car into a crowd of people and killed a bunch of people 'cause he was frustrated because he couldn't find a mate.

   10. MPMikhaila Peterson5:49

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:50

       And your dad suggested that, um, inf- culturally enforced monogamy would be perhaps a solution for that, and then a bunch of people went crazy saying that, like, women ... He's saying that women should sacrifice themselves-

   12. MPMikhaila Peterson6:05

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:05

       ... and fuck these guys so that they don't...... drive cars into crowds.

   14. MPMikhaila Peterson6:08

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       And this is- (laughs) You know, it's like-

   16. MPMikhaila Peterson6:10

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       It was- The whole th- Everybody made a mistake. (laughs)

   18. MPMikhaila Peterson6:14

       Y- Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:14

       Yeah. Um, I don't think there's an answer for those guys. I really don't. But-

   20. MPMikhaila Peterson6:19

       No.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       But tha- but that i- th- that wa- those kinda articles were like... The editorial articles and opinion articles, it's really- it's a different thing than reporting on the news, right?

   22. MPMikhaila Peterson6:31

       Yeah. I thought, I thought... So honesty was always a big thing in our house, and it was like, don't lie, because if you lie, eventually the lie will surface and it'll be so much bigger than m- the hell you get from telling the truth.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MPMikhaila Peterson6:43

       So I kind of just assumed that-

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       The world-

   26. MPMikhaila Peterson6:46

       ... the media did that. Yeah, the world just worked like that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:50

       Yeah. Nope.

   28. MPMikhaila Peterson6:51

       No. (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:52

       (laughs)

   30. MPMikhaila Peterson6:53

       I know that now.
4. 7:54 – 9:54

   Severe juvenile arthritis, early joint replacements, and 'idiopathic' medicine

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      Pretty sure. 'Cause he's had them for quite a few years. Um, you know, massive joint pain, all k- all sorts of issue. And you- when did you- You got a hip replacement. How old were you?

   2. MPMikhaila Peterson8:05

      17. And an ankle replacement at 17.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:08

      Whew. (exhales)

   4. MPMikhaila Peterson8:09

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:09

      That's crazy.

   6. MPMikhaila Peterson8:09

      It was a rough year.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:10

      That is crazy. Um, what i- Do you- so your whole life you've had arthritis issues or?

   8. MPMikhaila Peterson8:17

      Yeah. Um, so I started walking kinda funny when I was two, according to my mom, and she brought me to the doctor and they said, j- just having growing pains or something. When I was seven, I was diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and I had like 37 joints affected, and then I was put on immune suppressants in grade four, so I was actually the first kid in Canada to be put on, uh, this biologic called Enbrel. So I was on Enbrel and methotrexate fore- ever, like leading up to the hip and ankle replacement, and they did help reduce some of the pain, but I still ended up with no cartilage in my joint and hip, my hip and ankle, um, when I was 17.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:54

      And this is just from the effects of arthritis and the inflammation and swelling, and it just chewed the cartilage up?

   10. MPMikhaila Peterson9:01

       Uh-huh. So I wasn't even particularly swollen. I didn't have a very, like, inflammatory, visually inflammatory arthritis, so my rheumatologist who'd been at SickKids for 20 years said that I had the worst arthritis she'd ever seen, so it was very severe. It wasn't particularly, like, swollen. My joints just disintegrated.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:25

       Wow.

   12. MPMikhaila Peterson9:26

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:26

       And what do they think causes something like this?

   14. MPMikhaila Peterson9:28

       They didn't know. So it was l- eventually after the hip and ankle replacement, the diagnosis was changed to juvenile idiopathic arthritis, so it was literally like, "We don't know."

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:39

       Wow. And w- how did you go from these, uh, medications, pharmaceutical medications to getting into this carnivore diet thing? What was this- this path?

5. 9:54 – 12:30

   Downward spiral in university: depression, hypersomnia, skin reactions, and self-research

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson9:54

      Well, okay, I'll give you a background of the path. Um, we were very, like, science oriented, especially Dad. So even though Mom kinda wanted to delve into diet and was like, "We should go sugar-free or stop eating, you know, whatever. Make sure you eat whole grains." Like, all that stuff, we never gave diet, uh, a chance because there was no scientific evidence for it. So I basically got sicker and sicker and sicker and I ended up... By the time I got to university, uh, I ended up with arthritis. I was severely depressed. I was on antidepressants as well. Um, I had idiopathic hypersomnia, so I was sleeping about 18 hours a day. My whole body was itchy all the time. That started when I was about 14. Um, and so that was when I started university. And then my diet just got disastrous in university and I was, like, drinking all the time and eating, like, pizza and beer. And I gained, like, 30 pounds in the first year and ginger ale, a lot of ginger ale. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:58

      (claps hands together)

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson10:58

      Anyway, I gained about 30 pounds in the first year. My mental health declined even further and I didn't really know what was going on. And then I started getting skin issues, so I started getting rashes, cystic acne, and I was like, "Okay, I can deal with, like, four really awful health problems, but I can't deal with things affecting my skin on top of that. There's too many things." So I went to a dermatologist and they basically told me I was anxious and, like, causing these rashes by itching. So that was the dermatologist's opinion, which was very unhelpful. Anyway, I spent a lot of time... I was eventually prescribed Adderall for the hypersomnia, so I spent all my time googling, reading papers, trying to get a background on skin disorders, and eventually I came across this, uh, celiac disease rash online, and that's what I had. It looked exactly the same. So I cut out gluten. I read a whole bunch about, like, the effects of gluten on the gut and thought, "Oh, there's actually some evidence that gluten isn't good for people. Why aren't people being told this? Like, why didn't my doctor test me for celiac disease?" Because celiac disease couples with autoimmune disorders all the time. Like, they test type 1 kids for celiac disease.... but for some reason, they don't test kids with arthritis for celiac disease. So I cut out gluten and that kinda helped, maybe like 20%, but it was hard to tell 'cause it was the summer. I was like, "Maybe I'm just feeling better from the summer." My rash kinda went down, but it was still there. And then, so it was September 2015,

6. 12:30 – 15:41

   Elimination dieting experiments: gluten-free to 'safe foods' and the first major improvements

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson12:30

      uh, my mom dragged me to a naturopath and they gave me this sheet of foods and like, "Try this elimination diet." And I looked at the sheet and thought, "This doesn't make any sense." Like, "Why can I eat lemons and not oranges? And why are almonds on there, but other nuts are off?" So I cut... So I thought, "Okay, if I'm gonna do an elimination diet," which I didn't believe in at all, um, "I'll cut down to what I consider safe foods." And I had no idea what I was doing, so I just thought, "Okay, vegetables are pretty safe. I'll get rid of nightshades 'cause people talk about them being bad." And-

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:59

      Nightshades? What is nightshades?

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson13:00

      Nightshades like tomatoes, eggplant, those kind of foods. For some reason, they're... I just knew that they were-

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      I've never heard them referred to as nightshades.

   5. MPMikhaila Peterson13:09

      I feel like literally everybody has heard them referred to as nightshades.

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      No. Have you heard 'em?

   7. NANarrator13:15

      I've heard the term, but not... I couldn't tell you what it was. I wouldn't have been able to say it was tomatoes and eggplants, I don't think.

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:20

      Hm. Maybe it's just Canada.

   9. NANarrator13:22

      So that's it.

   10. MPMikhaila Peterson13:22

       (laughs) I don't think it's Canada.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       Is it a Canadian thing?

   12. MPMikhaila Peterson13:24

       I don't think so.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:25

       No? Oh, okay. Well, I'm sorry.

   14. MPMikhaila Peterson13:26

       We'll let the YouTube comments decide.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       Yeah.

   16. MPMikhaila Peterson13:28

       Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       Definitely don't let them decide.

   18. MPMikhaila Peterson13:30

       (laughs) Okay.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:33

       (laughs)

   20. MPMikhaila Peterson13:33

       Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:33

       That's like calling demons for help.

   22. MPMikhaila Peterson13:35

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:36

       Anyway, go ahead.

   24. MPMikhaila Peterson13:38

       Um, anyway, I cut down. So I was eating mostly like green vegetables. I was still eating rice at that point 'cause I thought, "Everybody eats rice. Rice is safe." Uh, and meat. But I cut out like dairy, most grains, soy, uh, sugar, processed foods. And then in the next month, my joints got way better and my skin healed. And my skin never healed like for, for a couple years. I'd ha- I'd always have these flare-ups, it never went away. And that was just on a like relatively low carb diet, just like, just less f- I don't know. I was still eating rice, right? But it was still mostly meat and vegetables. And I thought, "Okay, maybe there's something to this." And then I made almond flour, gluten-free, sugar-free, dairy-free almond flour banana muffins and I ate a bunch of those one night and I woke up and the next day my wrists were sore. And I thought, "Okay, maybe that's weird." And then I had a bunch more of the muffins, because the muffins were good. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:41

       (laughs)

   26. MPMikhaila Peterson14:41

       And, and then I went away to a cottage that weekend and I couldn't walk 'cause of my knees. And I never had flare-ups that badly. Like I used to get... My shoulder was always sore when I slept, so I took Tylenol 3 at night for sleeping. And my wrists were stiff, but I never had like a flare-up like I couldn't walk. Um, so that was that weekend. So then I went back to the diet and got really strict with it. And then things were better, like my skin was better. I, I lost... This was weird. I lost five pounds, which wasn't a lot, but I went down three pant sizes. So it was all bloating that I didn't realize was bloating 'cause it never fluctuated. So that was the first month. And then 2015, and then I started trying to reintroduce foods because I was having cravings and I missed going out to eat with my friends and everything. So I tried to re-... The first thing I tried to reintroduce was (laughs) Sour Patch candy because I was having

7. 15:41 – 18:14

   Food-triggered itching, GI reactions, and stopping antidepressants without supervision

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson15:41

      really intense sugar... Don't look at me like that. I was having really intense sugar cravings and I looked at the package and I thought, "Okay, no one's allergic to s- sugar. Um, there's no dairy, there's no gluten, there's no soy. This'll be fine." And I really wanted to eat them. (laughs) And I had those, and the next day, my whole body was itchy again. And it was like, like mosquito bites everywhere itchy. So I thought, "Okay, maybe, maybe that was a bad idea." So I waited a couple weeks and I tried to reintroduce almond butter, organic almond butter, 'cause I wanted something fast, protein fast. And then I had, um, it's like abdominal cramping, diarrhea, then this itch came back.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:24

      Jesus Christ.

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson16:25

      Yeah. So for the next year, um... Well, I'll slow down. We've got some time. So that was the, that was the almond butter. So then I waited a while and I felt pretty good, and this was November 2015. And then I started feeling really good and I went off of my antidepressants. And I had been taking antidepressants since I was in grade five. A really high dose of, um, an SSRI, which had been very helpful, but-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:52

      Did you wean yourself off and did you do it under a doctor's supervision?

   5. MPMikhaila Peterson16:55

      No. I didn't-

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:57

      You didn't wean yourself off?

   7. MPMikhaila Peterson16:58

      ... trust... I, I weaned myself down. So I went down to half and then I went to a quarter and then I s- went to an eighth and then I stopped taking it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:04

      Over how long a period of time?

   9. MPMikhaila Peterson17:04

      Two weeks. It was nothing really.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:06

       Over two weeks?

   11. MPMikhaila Peterson17:07

       It was two weeks, yeah. I didn't have withdrawal symptoms, like I, I think maybe I was lucky that way.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:13

       And so your diet- And so your diet at this point was?

   13. MPMikhaila Peterson17:15

       Um, so at that point, I was eating rice occasionally, but it was mostly like broccoli, salad, chicken, beef, fish, you know, olive oil, apple cider vinegar, salt, pepper. Um, at that point, I was also eating pears and apples. So it was kinda like paleo, kind of.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:36

       Kinda paleo.

   15. MPMikhaila Peterson17:36

       Very restricted paleo.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       Okay.

   17. MPMikhaila Peterson17:37

       Dairy free. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:39

       And so you're feeling good, you're off your medication, your joints feel better, no more rashes.

   19. MPMikhaila Peterson17:44

       No more rashes yet, eh, so everything seems to be improving. I was shocked when the depression lifted because I thought, "That runs in my family, that's familial. We have some sort of brain chemistry problem, th- that can't possibly be diet." I thought n- I thought the skin maybe that was diet 'cause of this gluten link. And then maybe 'cause of the celiac gene that I got tested for, maybe the arthritis was part of that, but I never thought mood was associated with it. So that was a surprise in November. Anyway, I went off of the antidepressants and then, um, about a

8. 18:14 – 25:01

   The soy 'crash': extreme depressive relapse, panic, and brief visual hallucinations

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson18:14

      month later, I tried to reintroduce soy and this is when things started getting really weird that year.So I was having-

   2. JRJoe Rogan18:23

      Why are you re- reintroducing things if you're having all these positive benefits?

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson18:27

      I was having cravings like crazy.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:28

      Oh.

   5. MPMikhaila Peterson18:28

      And I would miss eating out. And I thought there were probably like four or five foods I was really sensitive to, and I, if I could just figure out what they were, I could eat pretty normally. I didn't realize, like I didn't know what was going on.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:41

      Okay.

   7. MPMikhaila Peterson18:42

      If I had known, I would've done it much differently.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:44

      Right.

   9. MPMikhaila Peterson18:44

      But I tried to reintroduce soy, 'cause at that point I still thought soy was a health food. Um, so I ate a huge meal of like edamame beans, and bean sprouts, and miso soup that I made myself so it was gluten-free, and soy sauce and tofu. I literally ate soy in every form. And I had the same kind of reaction with almond butter. I had ... Immediately got bloated. I had diarrhea like within maybe 20, 30 minutes of eating it. And I thought, "Okay. That sucks. I guess I can't eat soy." And then about four hours later, my legs got itchy, and then my whole body got itchy. And I was like, "Okay. That sucks. I'm, clearly I'm reacting to soy." And then the next morning, the depression came back, and it came back like ... That was the worst depressive experience I've ever had. Um, I was medication-free, and it came back in the morning. And I got in the shower, and I just like, I bawled in the shower, and thought, "How could I be so naive to think that my horrible autoimmune disorder and the dep- depression and everything was caused by food? Like what an idiotic thing to think. How could I be that hopeful?" And then I had to remind myself, "Okay. No. You ate a whole bunch of this food. Then you had this like digestive distress. Then you got itchy, and now the depression is back. There's clearly a pattern here." But it was hard to think like that-

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MPMikhaila Peterson20:08

       ... when I got that depressed. So that day was like ... I spent a lot of that day crying. Then the next day got worse. And this is, this is when it gets weird. Um, so that night, I went over to my parents and I was just like, "I don't know what's going on," right? Um, and they're like, "Well, do you wanna take a car back to your apartment?" And I said, "I don't think I can drive. Like I can't ... I just can't think. I don't know what's going on." So ju- my brother, um, drove me home, and I was like on the verge of having a panic attack, for no reason, right? It was just like my heart rate was increasing. I was trying to find my keys, and I turned around to look at my brother in the car, and h- his head was a, like a kind of a demon ... This ... (laughs) I know how this sounds. But he had like a demon head for about a second and a half, and he looked at me, and then he turned, and then it was my brother again. So I was standing at the-

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:07

       So you're hallucinating.

   13. MPMikhaila Peterson21:08

       For like a, yeah, about a second and a half.

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:10

       Any other hallucinations?

   15. MPMikhaila Peterson21:11

       Um, that year, yes. Before that, no.

   16. JRJoe Rogan21:14

       That year?

   17. MPMikhaila Peterson21:15

       Yeah. After this. I'll get into it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:18

       So you ate soy and started tripping?

   19. MPMikhaila Peterson21:21

       Yeah, two days later. I know how it sounds. That's how it sounded to me too.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:26

       Have you found comparable stories online?

   21. MPMikhaila Peterson21:30

       So ... So obviously I did as much research as I could possibly do.

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:33

       Yeah.

   23. MPMikhaila Peterson21:33

       Um, to soy, no. To gluten ... To people who are schizophrenic from gluten, yeah. There are people with celiac disease who have schizophrenia induced by gluten. So I found that, but I didn't find anything for other foods.

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:50

       But sch- does schizophrenia include hallucinations?

   25. MPMikhaila Peterson21:53

       Uh, rarely visual, but I did find a case study of a woman who was seeing demons from her celiac disease gluten.

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:01

       Now, when you say you looked over and you saw your brother and his head was a demon head, like describe it.

   27. MPMikhaila Peterson22:07

       Like ... No. I found-

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:11

       Vivid? Vivid?

   29. MPMikhaila Peterson22:11

       Mm ... No. It was like e- you know when it's really dark in a room?

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:15

       Uh-huh.
9. 25:01 – 28:00

   Pregnancy changes tolerance: from meat-and-greens to discovering 'only meat' as an option

   1. MPMikhaila Peterson25:01

      So I decide, about a year later, I decide, "Hey, maybe I don't want to keep cycling in and out of a horrible autoimmune and mental problems. Maybe I'll just stick with the original diet."

   2. JRJoe Rogan25:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MPMikhaila Peterson25:11

      And then I got pregnant. And so then my autoimmune symptoms flared again.

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:18

      During the pregnancy?

   5. MPMikhaila Peterson25:18

      Yeah, like right away. As soon as I found out I was pregnant. It was like before I found out I was pregnant that my autoimmune symptoms came back. So my legs were itchy again. Uh, I was ... My joints were stiff. My skin was breaking out.

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:30

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MPMikhaila Peterson25:30

      My anxiety was back, and it was hard to tell, well, what part of this is pregnancy and what part of this is an autoimmune disorder? Um, so throughout my pregnancy, I cut down on all the carbs I was eating. So I cut out fruit. I cut out sweet potatoes. I went down to meat and greens. And I think Dad was on here one time-

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MPMikhaila Peterson25:48

      ... and he was on a meat and greens diet. So that was during that part. So we're both on a meat and greens diet, mostly because we didn't realize you didn't need greens t- to survive. So we were eating meat and greens. And then I had this-

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:02

       Did you say mostly because we realized you didn't need greens to survive?

   11. MPMikhaila Peterson26:05

       Well, we didn't, we didn't realize m- only meat was an option.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:10

       You hadn't realized.

   13. MPMikhaila Peterson26:10

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:10

       Okay. Yeah.

   15. MPMikhaila Peterson26:11

       We hadn't realized that. We didn't know that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:12

       Okay.

   17. MPMikhaila Peterson26:13

       So it was meat and salad, and it was a very simple salad with like olive oil, apple cider vinegar, salt, pepper, cucumbers, lettuces-

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       Uh-huh.

   19. MPMikhaila Peterson26:20

       ... spinach. Pretty simple salad.

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:23

       Right.

   21. MPMikhaila Peterson26:23

       And then meat and fish. So we did that for about a year, and then I had my daughter, and then I didn't get better. So then I found out, okay, so these symptoms aren't really pregnancy-related. It's just me now. For, for some reason, I've lost the tolerance to these foods I used to be able to eat. And in-

   22. JRJoe Rogan26:42

       But you're just eating salad and meat.

   23. MPMikhaila Peterson26:44

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:45

       And-

   25. MPMikhaila Peterson26:45

       And I'm still having autoimmune symptoms now.

   26. JRJoe Rogan26:47

       The same symptoms that you used to have back when you were eating everything?

   27. MPMikhaila Peterson26:50

       Not, not nearly as bad. Not nearly as bad. Like, my fatigue wasn't back.

   28. JRJoe Rogan26:54

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MPMikhaila Peterson26:54

       My anxiety was manageable without medication. Um ...

   30. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       But you hadn't achieved the levels of-
10. 28:00 – 31:24

    Transition to strict carnivore: diarrhea vs. itching, and eventual stabilization

    1. MPMikhaila Peterson28:00

       So I found her. Then I found that Shaun Baker episode you did, and he'd been doing it for two years. And I think that night I thought, "Screw it. I literally have nothing to lose here. I'm only cutting out salad." So that's when I switched over. That was December. And then I switched over, and the itching got better pretty quickly, like within the first couple of days. But then my digestion just got totally screwed up, so like bloating and diarrhea every time I ate. And after about a week, I thought, "Okay, this is a bad idea," (laughs) obviously.

    2. JRJoe Rogan28:36

       Bloating and diarrhea every time you ate meat? Just meat?

    3. MPMikhaila Peterson28:39

       Just meat.

    4. JRJoe Rogan28:40

       Jesus Christ.

    5. MPMikhaila Peterson28:41

       And salt. Yeah. So I thought, "This is a bad idea. Obviously this isn't working. My body doesn't like it." So I reintroduced salad again, and it was literally lettuce, apple cider vinegar, olive oil, and salt and pepper. That's what I reintroduced. And I woke up the next day, and the itch was back, and my joints were stiff. And I thought, "Okay, if I have to (laughs) choose between itching and arthritis or diarrhea, I'm gonna choose the diarrhea." I was in a rough place.

    6. JRJoe Rogan29:08

       Hmm. I guess.

    7. MPMikhaila Peterson29:09

       So I stuck it out, and at six weeks of just doing this, uh, my di- the bloating went away, the diarrhea went away, and everything started to improve. So that was mid-January. But I was still pretty skeptical because I thought, I thought maybe the reason the carnivore diet worked for people was because they just accidentally cut out everything that wasn't working for them. Um, processed foods, sugar, you know-

    8. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MPMikhaila Peterson29:35

       ... grains, all that. So I tried to reintroduce olives, like organic olives and olive oil. Uh, and that was February. And then I had this itching came back with the depression. Um, my skin broke out. And it was minor in comparison to like soy.

    10. JRJoe Rogan29:49

        So you think, essentially, to give us the CliffNotes, you're allergic to everything?

    11. MPMikhaila Peterson29:55

        Yeah. Uh, but-

    12. JRJoe Rogan29:58

        That's fucking crazy.

    13. MPMikhaila Peterson30:00

        It's crazy, but then here's the thing. I started this blog, so the blog's Don't Eat That!

    14. JRJoe Rogan30:04

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MPMikhaila Peterson30:04

        And I started this blog because I thought if, for some reason, there's someone else out there like me, and they're googling these things-

    16. JRJoe Rogan30:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MPMikhaila Peterson30:11

        ... it'd be nice for them to know that they're not alone.

    18. JRJoe Rogan30:14

        Right.

    19. MPMikhaila Peterson30:15

        And I found other people like this who are equally as sensitive.

    20. JRJoe Rogan30:19

        I'm sure. I mean, look, if you exist is, there's probably quite a few people that have that issue. Look-

    21. MPMikhaila Peterson30:23

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan30:23

        ... makes sense. It makes sense that (coughs) we all, we all have different tolerances, and we all have different allergies.

    23. MPMikhaila Peterson30:29

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan30:29

        I mean, some people are allergic to cats. Some people have no problem with peanuts. Some people eat a Brazil nut and they die.

    25. MPMikhaila Peterson30:36

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan30:36

        This is just ... We do-

    27. MPMikhaila Peterson30:37

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan30:37

        We know this.So the idea-- this is one of the problems with diet is that people wanna think that a diet that works for them works for everybody, and it doesn't work that way. And thing- m- and people want you to follow their diet, no matter what it is, whether it's vegan or paleo, people are very ideological with that.

    29. MPMikhaila Peterson30:53

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JRJoe Rogan30:54

        They, they would love you, for you to do exactly what they're doing, so it'll reinforce what they're doing is correct. Um, there's a lot of pushback against this carnivore diet idea. But I don't, uh, I, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that someone like you might actually really be allergic to everything.
11. 31:24 – 33:11

    What might be going on: probiotics intolerance, emulsifiers, leaky gut, and individual variability

    1. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       Did you ever do anything with probiotics?

    2. MPMikhaila Peterson31:27

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       Yeah?

    4. MPMikhaila Peterson31:28

       I can't tolerate probiotics.

    5. JRJoe Rogan31:29

       You can't tolerate them?

    6. MPMikhaila Peterson31:30

       No. So the original idea was heal my gut-

    7. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MPMikhaila Peterson31:33

       ... repopulate with bacteria that maybe I'm missing-

    9. JRJoe Rogan31:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MPMikhaila Peterson31:36

        ... and then maybe incorporate more foods.

    11. JRJoe Rogan31:38

        Right, so what happened when you tried to do that?

    12. MPMikhaila Peterson31:40

        Same autoimmune flare-up.

    13. JRJoe Rogan31:42

        Okay, but this is the same autoimmune flare-up that you got when you ate salad?

    14. MPMikhaila Peterson31:48

        No, not quite.

    15. JRJoe Rogan31:49

        Not quite as bad?

    16. MPMikhaila Peterson31:51

        Not ... It was different. It was, like, with salad, there's more of the arthritis-

    17. JRJoe Rogan31:56

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MPMikhaila Peterson31:57

        ... uh, and, like, body pain, and then ... (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan32:00

        With probiotics, what'd you get?

    20. MPMikhaila Peterson32:01

        Mood issues.

    21. JRJoe Rogan32:02

        Mood issues.

    22. MPMikhaila Peterson32:02

        So, like, really volatile. And itchy.

    23. JRJoe Rogan32:06

        Right. Itchy.

    24. MPMikhaila Peterson32:06

        So I've still got the itch. Yeah. So I think it was I probably had leaky gut.

    25. JRJoe Rogan32:11

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MPMikhaila Peterson32:12

        And so the probiotics were just going everywhere.

    27. JRJoe Rogan32:14

        One of the things your dad brought up to me when he was here was, um, emulsifiers.

    28. MPMikhaila Peterson32:18

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan32:19

        And that, yeah, and then, then I started reading up on it after he discussed it with me, and, uh, it's something I'd never even considered before, but fast-rising yeast and all these different emulsifiers that they put in, in bread and, and various foods.

    30. MPMikhaila Peterson32:35

        Mm-hmm.
12. 33:11 – 52:47

    Diet vs exercise debate: discipline, energy, and the psychology of lifestyle change

    1. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       S- yeah.

    2. MPMikhaila Peterson33:11

       Most people, though. If you look at, like, obesity or-

    3. JRJoe Rogan33:14

       Uh, I wouldn't go most. I would say some. I'd say most people are sedentary. That's one of the primary issues.

    4. MPMikhaila Peterson33:20

       Yeah, but I don't think that's the issue.

    5. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       What do you mean?

    6. MPMikhaila Peterson33:23

       I mean, okay, say, I mean, I guess, no, I'm not a great example, but, I mean, people start gaining weight, if they're lucky, when they're middle-aged. If they're unlucky, when they're around 25, and they start gaining weight. I don't think it's from lack of exercise. I think it's from diet. And g-

    7. JRJoe Rogan33:38

       Yeah. I think diet has a lot to do with it, yeah, for sure, um, but it's also lack of exercise.

    8. MPMikhaila Peterson33:45

       I don't know. I'm not convinced because people who've gone onto this carnivore diet especially-

    9. JRJoe Rogan33:52

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MPMikhaila Peterson33:52

        ... lose that weight.

    11. JRJoe Rogan33:53

        Right, but there's a lot of people out there that are not overweight that don't follow the carnivore diet, so how do you explain that?

    12. MPMikhaila Peterson33:59

        Well, I'd like to see anybody above the age of 50-

    13. JRJoe Rogan34:03

        I know, but, I know-

    14. MPMikhaila Peterson34:03

        ... who's on a standard, standard American diet.

    15. JRJoe Rogan34:05

        ... a bunch of people. What is a standard American diet? I mean, you're, you're saying-

    16. MPMikhaila Peterson34:08

        Like carbs.

    17. JRJoe Rogan34:08

        ... are they eating terrible?

    18. MPMikhaila Peterson34:10

        No, I just mean standard American diet.

    19. JRJoe Rogan34:11

        I mean, they eat some carbs.

    20. MPMikhaila Peterson34:12

        I mean, do they watch what they eat?

    21. JRJoe Rogan34:14

        They ... I mean, this, this is, these blanket statements are a real issue, and that's one of the reasons why your diet is fascinating is 'cause, like, y- y- y- you know, I don't think you can make blanket statements when it comes to people and diet, you know, that ... I think there's some people out there that are goddamn food dumpsters. You could throw anything in there, and they're fine. They just don't-

    22. MPMikhaila Peterson34:33

        There are definitely people-

    23. JRJoe Rogan34:34

        They, they don't seem to have issues.

    24. MPMikhaila Peterson34:34

        ... closer to that.

    25. JRJoe Rogan34:35

        They don't gain weight. Yeah, there's a lot of people-

    26. MPMikhaila Peterson34:36

        My brother is pretty ... well, he's not so good with l- like, lactose, but he's pretty stable compared to me, anyway.

    27. JRJoe Rogan34:43

        Well, you know Michael Phelps, that Olympic swimmer?

    28. MPMikhaila Peterson34:45

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan34:46

        That, that guy eats, like, 10,000 calories a day-

    30. MPMikhaila Peterson34:48

        Yeah.
13. 52:47 – 1:00:42

    Measuring health on carnivore: bloodwork, vitamin concerns, and research gaps

    1. JRJoe Rogan52:47

       Now what kind of blood work are you getting while you're doing all this? Are you, are you going and getting tested for nutritional deficiencies? 'Cause the one of the issues that many people who are nutritionists or who are studying biology have with this carnivore diet is that meat, just meat, is very deficient in many, many nutrients. It's just, it's very deficient in vitamin C, it's deficient in several things that we think that you need in order to, to live.

    2. MPMikhaila Peterson53:18

       Yeah. Well, I did get blood work done because people were asking.

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:22

       Okay.

    4. MPMikhaila Peterson53:22

       And not because I particularly trust blood work, because my blood work was always pretty normal. I was always low in zinc and vitamin D since I was a kid.

    5. JRJoe Rogan53:29

       Even when you had severe arthritis?

    6. MPMikhaila Peterson53:31

       Yeah. Everything was normal. I had no blood markers and I was like, dying. This-

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:35

       But did... What about for inflammation?

    8. MPMikhaila Peterson53:38

       Um, my white blood cell count was high.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:40

       Okay. So that's-

    10. MPMikhaila Peterson53:40

        So that can be a sign of like infection.

    11. JRJoe Rogan53:42

        Right.

    12. MPMikhaila Peterson53:42

        So that was high. My vitamin D and my zinc were low.

    13. JRJoe Rogan53:45

        Right. But that's not-

    14. MPMikhaila Peterson53:46

        That's what showed up.

    15. JRJoe Rogan53:47

        But that wouldn't be normal, right? If you went and you got your blood tested and they showed you that you have a high white blood cell count, they would go, "There's an issue here."

    16. MPMikhaila Peterson53:54

        Yeah, it wasn't abnormal enough to have caused the problems I was experiencing.

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:00

        But how about... How, how m- different was it from the norm?

    18. MPMikhaila Peterson54:04

        White blood cell count?

    19. JRJoe Rogan54:06

        Yes.

    20. MPMikhaila Peterson54:06

        Um, well I had white blood s- raised white blood cell count and I had white blood cells in my urine. And that's a l- that's a little weird, because that is generally like, well, some sort of bacterial infection, which I didn't have symptoms of.

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:20

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MPMikhaila Peterson54:21

        So that was a little weird. But that was never focused on from the doctors.

    23. JRJoe Rogan54:25

        Why not? Well, that seems like that's, that's an issue. If normal people don't have that and you have problems that normal people don't have, I would say-

    24. MPMikhaila Peterson54:33

        And link them?

    25. JRJoe Rogan54:33

        ... like your blood work is not link... I mean, uh, your blood work is not normal. That's not normal. Right?

    26. MPMikhaila Peterson54:37

        No, but I mean, I was on all the medications they could put me on.

    27. JRJoe Rogan54:41

        Right.

    28. MPMikhaila Peterson54:41

        So there wasn't... And they never looked at diet, so...

    29. JRJoe Rogan54:44

        Right.

    30. MPMikhaila Peterson54:44

        I was kind of at a standstill.
14. 1:00:42 – 1:15:14

    Sauna, cryotherapy, and managing flare-ups; ankle replacement realities and upcoming surgery

    1. MPMikhaila Peterson1:00:42

       So yeah, I'm freaked out, but I'm okay. The one thing I've found really helps, the only thing I've found that helps these reactions is an infrared sauna. If I get in there like once a day and sweat.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       Only an infrared one? What about a regular one?

    3. MPMikhaila Peterson1:00:55

       Um...

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       Do you know?

    5. MPMikhaila Peterson1:00:57

       Honestly, no, I don't know.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:58

       You don't know. So the idea just the elevated heat temperature, whether it's infrared or not-

    7. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:04

       Yeah, I don't know if it's, I've just read all the benefits of infrared.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:01:06

       Mm. What are the-

    9. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:07

       But I haven't-

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:01:07

        ... benefits over a regular sauna?

    11. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:10

        Well, there's like longevity studies from Finland.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:13

        Those are done in a regular sauna.

    13. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:14

        That's a regular sauna?

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:16

        Yeah. The ones that are done, that show the decrease in mortality of 40%.

    15. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:20

        That's a regular sauna?

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

        That's a regular sauna. Yeah. Pretty sure-

    17. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:23

        What about mitochondrial health?

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

        Why don't you, uh, Google that, please? There's a study... Maybe Rhonda Patrick has it up on her website. But, um, 'cause I asked her whether I should get a regular sauna or a, uh, infrared, and she said the studies that were done were done with a regular sauna.

    19. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:37

        Why-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

        But she said that-

    21. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:38

        Oh, okay.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

        ... the real issue is that, um, your body's producing heat shock proteins. So whether it's infrared or regular, the whole, the real issue is your body's in this extreme 170 degree temperature, produces these cytokines and these, um, cytokines, cytokines? I don't know how to-

    23. MPMikhaila Peterson1:01:52

        Cytokines.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:52

        And your body is reacting to this incredible temperature, and this is what produces this anti-inflammation effect. I would think for someone like you with arthritis in particular, anything that reduces inflammation would be a, a great benefit, so-

    25. MPMikhaila Peterson1:02:06

        Yeah. No, it's great.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

        ... sauna would be awesome.

    27. MPMikhaila Peterson1:02:08

        I just, if I'm reacting, like sauna makes me feel, I don't... Like 20% better. Like a lot better.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

        A lot better.

    29. MPMikhaila Peterson1:02:13

        After I get out.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:55:24