Joe Rogan Experience #1181 - John Dudley

John Dudley is a pro archer and host of “Nock On TV.” Check out his podcast “Nock On” available on iTunes. Also check out https://freerangeamerican.us/ and #DoAwesomeShit

John DudleyguestJoe RoganhostGuestguest

Oct 8, 20181h 40mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,005 words

0:00 – 1:59
UFC 229 crowd chaos from inside the arena
1. JDJohn Dudley
  ... get squirrelly. (laughs)
2. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) Four, three, two, one, boom. I gotta ask Donnie Vincent, who made that knife, 'cause, uh, people always ask me about it.
3. JDJohn Dudley
  It's awesome. I coulda used it on Saturday when things-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, when the-
5. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
6. JRJoe Rogan
  ... shit got squirrelly-
7. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep. (laughs)
8. JRJoe Rogan
  ... at the UFC?
9. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  With the side that you guys were on, where you guys were in the crowd, did anybody jump towards you that way?
11. JDJohn Dudley
  No. The crowd mainly started-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. JDJohn Dudley
  ... it was... 'Cause we were... We ha- I'm pretty sure we had Irish right in front of us. And right in front of them was some of Khabib's guys.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
15. JDJohn Dudley
  And Khabib's guys were turning around, just literally throwing the fingers right to the Irish guys the whole time.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs)
17. JDJohn Dudley
  So then once that happened, it was (laughs) like... I was lucky, though. I had, uh, I had, I had Aubrey and Whitney right there. They were... Aubrey was in-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  They were there to protect you? (laughs)
19. SPSpeaker
  (laughs)
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. They, they were in full throw-down mode. I was just, I was one of the dumb people-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs)
22. JDJohn Dudley
  ... just kinda looking around like, "Okay, is there-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  They were gonna throw mushrooms at everybody?
24. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. "Is there any immediate danger?" No. It, uh... I mean, obviously it seemed w- way worse over on your side. But I was more worried when they made us leave, because the further up you got in the bleachers, and once you got out into the concession area and in the bathrooms, that's where stuff was going down. Like, just people from the crowd, um, you know, guys with Irish flags obv- obviously were getting trash talked to them and there was a big brawl right-
25. SPSpeaker
  Yeah. Right next to me on the other side from where they were sitting.
26. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh, that's right. There was one just to our right.
27. SPSpeaker
  Um, and-
28. JDJohn Dudley
  I was looking left.
29. SPSpeaker
  ... I believe it was the guy that jumped in, in the red shirt on Khabib's team, when they were trying to leave and they were getting them out-
30. JDJohn Dudley
  Hmm.
1:59 – 5:18
Why fights at fight events feel “less shocking” than other venues
1. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, there's a price to be paid for all this shit. Like all the, all the drama and the trash talking that makes it so fun, it also, you know, it has the potential for blowing up in your face. Ultimately, like couple of people got punched, but it was in an event where a bunch of people got punched. You know what I mean? It's like-
2. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) Way more than that. It was awesome.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, but... You know what I'm saying? It's like e- e- we, we made it seem... It seemed like it was way worse than it really was because in any other situation, it would be way worse than it really was. Like if it was a rock concert-
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Mm-hmm.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and some dudes just from, you know, like... you know, if one band was the opening band and then there was another band that was in a brawl with them and they were, they were the main event and then the fans of one band threw down with the fans of the other band and beat the shit out of each other, that would, for whatever reason, be way worse than when it's at a fight. 'Cause if it's at a fight, it's just fighters. Oh, I saw this. The Insane Clown-
6. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
7. SPSpeaker
  Same time.
8. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  This was going on. This Insane Clown Posse guy tried to dropkick Fred Durst. He... Fred Durst wasn't even looking at him. Running head start and misses. And look at him. He turns around and he's like, "What?" And he just kept going.
10. JDJohn Dudley
  I haven't seen Fred in years.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And then they drag that dude off. I mean, that is m- maybe the worst public dropkick-
12. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in the history of the world. (laughs)
14. JDJohn Dudley
  I think they meant he dropped when he tried to kick.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, he tried to dr-
16. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
17. JRJoe Rogan
  That was a classic dropkick. Classic pro wrestling dropkick. But his problem is he threw it like a pro wrestler would, where you don't really-
18. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... hit the guy. You know what I mean? He just kinda touched him. And if Fred was playing along, it would've been awesome.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  We need a slow-mo replay cam.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Fred would've went flying and it would've been, you know... Fuck.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  I think a lot of the p- a lot of the, uh, the thing that's going through people's minds too is when you're in a fight like that, there's a lot of people in the crowd that can throw down.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
24. JDJohn Dudley
  It's not like, you know, you go to a... Well, if you go to a hard, a hard rock concert of any kind, Clay Guida is gonna be there somewhere, obviously.
25. SPSpeaker
  (laughs)
26. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
27. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) But if... As long as you can avoid Clay-
28. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
29. JDJohn Dudley
  ... like your opportunity of finding a guy that can really throw cuffs is gonna be way smaller. Then when you're at the UFC and you look around, it's hard not to see cauliflower ear.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
5:18 – 7:44
Cardio myths: why wrestling pressure exhausts differently than running
1. JRJoe Rogan
  People don't... You know, w- when people were talking about, um, like, uh, Conor and his conditioning for this fight, like one of the things that, uh, j- um, Cam, Cam Hayne said was, like, you know, "He needs to start running, like go, go run in the hills." I'm like, "That ain't gonna help." Like i- i- I mean, it would help some, but the thing is when someone's wrestling you and they're on top of you, fucking you up like that, you're just getting f- you're just getting drained. It's like a vampire just sucking blood out of you.
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, you're, you're exhausted. You're carrying all their weight and you're getting beat up and you're, you're stressed and, you know, you're trying to move and you can't breathe well because the person's weight is on top of you, so you're not getting like real breaths and you're constantly resisting their weight. And it's way easier for them than it is for you. It's way easier to stay on top than it is to be on the bottom.It's a disaster.
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Well, people that grew up wrestling, you know, you look at Miller, Mendes, Guida, um, those guys have experienced that forever.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
6. JDJohn Dudley
  Like it's, it's ingrained in 'em. Most wrestlers don't lose like a, a classic wrestling physique. Even as adults, they still look like they're, like they were guys that were real athletic at one time. You know, I remember one of the first things my dad taught me, you know, when I was younger in school, he's like, uh, you know, I think it was after the first guy, you know, wanted to fight me on the playground. He's like, you know, "If you don't know if the guy's good at fighting, don't worry about it unless he's a wrestler." He's like, "Just, if it's a wrestler, try to back down 'cause he's like-"
7. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
8. JDJohn Dudley
  "... you don't know what to do."
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Smart dad.
10. JDJohn Dudley
  And, and yet, it was classic. This, this weekend when I was watching that fight, I'm like, "Okay, here we go. This is just a classic." He's gonna ... You know, Conor had like 30 seconds at the start of those rounds, and then it was just a mauling, you know.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, well John Kavanaugh, who's T- Conor's trainer, will be here next. He's gonna be here at 11:00, and I'll, we'll get a chance to talk to him and see what the fuck he thinks and what happened. And, the, the bottom line is that guy's so much better than him as a grappler. So much better.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  Yup.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  There, I mean, he is on such a high level. When I talked to Daniel Cormier, Daniel Cormier says that guy schools world-class wrestlers in the gym, just throws people around.
14. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, assassins.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Like probably one after another.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, he's just a-
18. JDJohn Dudley
  I mean, imagine the training.
7:44 – 10:45
Khabib’s lifelong grappling culture—and the famous bear-wrestling clip
1. JRJoe Rogan
  ... he's a special talent. He's been wrestling since he was a little kid, man. I mean, he really has. There's a vi- you ever see the video of him wrestling a bear?
2. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) No, but I want to.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  You never saw it?
4. JDJohn Dudley
  No, but I want to.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  It's fucking hilarious. It's him wrestling a brown bear. It's like a small brown bear, like a Russian brown bear.
6. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Like our version of a grizzly in Russia, and he's fucking wrestling it.
8. JDJohn Dudley
  So you're saying like a coastal peninsula bear?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Like a peninsula-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, look, look.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  What is happening?
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, that's him when he's a little kid. Look at this. I mean, who, first of all, who the fuck lets their kid-
14. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... wrestle a bear?
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, exactly.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  And the bear's biting him. The bear's biting him. Look at this bear's biting his clothes. The bear is a total cheater, which prepared him for Conor this weekend.
18. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  'Cause Conor did a lot of cheating.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Okay.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Look, he gave up position.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  If I would've saw this, I would be making a bet.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  He gave up position because of the bite. You see that?
24. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  He was on top and the bear bit him and he let the bear get on top. Now he's on top.
26. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh, yup, that's, it's over.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Look at this. But it's not. Bears are squirrelly, man, and bears have a really good guard.
28. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh, yeah. (laughs) Look at the double leg.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  The take down. Yeah. He's laughing.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  That is awesome.
10:45 – 12:33
Breaking down Khabib vs Conor—and other UFC 229 highlights
1. JDJohn Dudley
  And y- and as much as we're talking about wrestling, he impressed me standup. Like-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah, he cracked Conor with that big right hand.
3. JDJohn Dudley
  I mean, he, he, he st- he stood up enough to just say, you know, "I'm gonna sit here and take a few and I'm gonna give a few." But then he went to probably what his game plan was, I would assume.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, you have to stand for a little while because if he just shoots in, he'll get caught with a knee or caught with a punch rushing in. But, uh, he, I mean, he landed the bigger shot. There was one big giant shot that was landed in that fight and it was by hand.
5. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  And Conor hit him with some pretty good front kicks to the body and some other things, but didn't really get much off on the feet.
7. JDJohn Dudley
  Not like classic left jabs that just break people down.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, and on the ground. I mean, he just got mauled. And it's one of those things where you see that guy. In the beginning, guys fight him off a little bit. And then as the fight wears on, he just gets more and more dominant. They get more and more exhausted. Really, this fight just makes Al Iaquinta look like a god. I mean, that's the, the most impressive thing about it. Al Iaquinta went five rounds with him, stood toe-to-toe with him, and, you know, gave him at least a struggle. At least he gave him a bit of adversity.
9. JDJohn Dudley
  Yup.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, managed to survive on the ground much better than Conor did. Managed to get back up to his feet, managed to stuff a bunch of take downs, and on the feet, was a real threat. You know, I mean, obviously, Khabib didn't prepare for Al Iaquinta. He prepared for Conor, but Al Iaquinta didn't even prepare for five rounds. He only prepared for three.So there was-
11. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  ... so much to that fight.
13. JDJohn Dudley
  What do you think will happen with Conor now? I mean, uh-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  I'm worried what happens with Khabib.
15. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
16. GUGuest
  Well-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  I hope they sit everybody down and they go, "Look, everybody's all right."
18. GUGuest
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Come on.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  You know?
22. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
12:33 – 15:44
Aftermath accountability—and Joe explains the ‘fulcrum’ neck crank
1. JRJoe Rogan
  So the guy who r- rushed in the cage and punched Conor in the face, that guy-
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that guy should be in the most trouble 'cause, you know, the guy just fought four rounds, got the fuck beaten out of him, got choked. I heard a lot of people... (clicks tongue) There's a lot of silly, non-experts out there saying that that wasn't a choke or that it wasn't a, a neck crank. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about. That, that is absolutely a neck crank. When someone gets their arm around your head like that and then what they do is they grab it like this-
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and they pinch the elbow, s- they put the forearm on his back-
6. JDJohn Dudley
  Mm-hmm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  ... like this. So as the arm is across the neck, and then they grip it like this and the forearm goes into the back and, as you're pulling like this, you're pushing with your forearm and yanking with your hand. It is a terrible neck crank. Um, they call it... Dean Lister actually has a video on it.
8. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. I, I'm pulling up now.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  It's, he calls it the fulcrum choke, and it's a nasty choke. So, uh, y- you know, I thought he was going under the neck. Here, you can see it here. Dean Lister who's a world champion Brazilian jujitsu black belt, and, uh, that's my friend Hans, Hans Mollenkamp behind him. Now watch how he does this. See how he's, he's grabbing ahold of it and what he's gonna do is he's gonna clamp his hands. See how he grips his hands?
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And so, he, he's doing it like this.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  He crushes the esophagus.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  No, no, no. It can go right over your face. It can go over your neck. It can go over your face. It can go over your fucking cheekbones. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even have to go under the chin. If it goes under the chin, that's awesome. But you see what's going on with his forearm?
14. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  See how he's pull- push- pulling with his arms?
16. JDJohn Dudley
  It's a leverage. Lever arm.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Or you could do it... Some, some guys do it like this, but I think this is probably the best way to do it. But as you're right here, this part-
18. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... just digs that elbow. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect example. See, he's pulling on it with his, his right arm and then his left arm is pushing down with his forearm on Conor's shoulder. It is a nasty, nasty neck crank. And your, your, your head is getting popped off. And first of all, that guy could squeeze the shit out of you.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
21. JRJoe Rogan
  All you have to do... There's a bunch of guys who could put you to sleep like that. Uh, Marcelo Garcia's one. He puts guys as... He's put guys to sleep without even getting under the chin. He just gets your head, just gets your head in there and squeezes. Eddie Bravo can do that too. If he gets your head in there, y- you don't even have to... It doesn't even have to be under the chin. He just really puts you to sleep with your own fucking head.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Just wraps it around your head and squeezes it so tight that no blood is getting to your brain. (clicks tongue) Yeah, so there's a lot of armchair quarterbacks out there saying that that wasn't a neck crank. You're incorrect. And, uh, have Dean Lister do that shit to you-
24. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and you will know that that-
26. JDJohn Dudley
  I'm pretty sure I had Jocko do that to me.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs)
28. JDJohn Dudley
  My, my throat is still...
29. JRJoe Rogan
  You don't want that.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  No. Why-
15:44 – 28:07
Starting jiu-jitsu as an adult: overload, drilling, and skill transfer
1. JRJoe Rogan
  But you're taking classes now, right? You're taking 10th Point?
2. JDJohn Dudley
  When I can, yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, I've got one in, um, Altoona, Iowa, so thanks to you and Eddie for hooking me up with Demian.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Which-
6. JDJohn Dudley
  Shout-out.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Which, shout-out to Demian. What's super important is drilling. That's the most important thing-
8. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in, in the beginning. (clicks tongue) It's sort of like, uh, (sighs) it... Uh, there's very, there's parallels in archery for sure because archery, it's, uh, what's really important is your technique. Your technique is almost everything, like doing everything correctly. And that's the same thing with jujitsu, same thing with Muay Thai, Taekwondo, anything. It's just technique, um, and doing it over and over again correctly till it's ingrained in your system.
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, it's information overload for sure. That's one of the hardest parts for me is I'm so new at it-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  ... that I feel like my cognitive functioning is not at a level to, to take in. Th- I mean, it's, there's so much going on. And he... Several people have told me, they're like, "There, there comes a point where all of a sudden it just, it, something clicks and you start to comprehend everything." But until that moment happens, it's, you know, you're gonna struggle to remember what you talked about last time or how to do it exactly right. But-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
14. JDJohn Dudley
  ... eventually there, there comes a time when, when it clicks and it starts to, you know, you do start to soak in stuff. And I'm definitely not to that point yet. I mean, just even some of the basic drills. The one thing I do understand that they were, um, impressed by is just leverage on joints. You know, because they were talking about some of the different arm bars and stuff. Th- you know, they were like, "Well, if the elbow's like this..." And I said, "Yeah, that won't work. The elbow has to be like this." And I remember Demian looked at me like, "How do you know that?" And I'm like, "You know how many arms I've dissected off animals?" (laughs)
15. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
16. JDJohn Dudley
  You know? (laughs) If you have to, if you have to knock four hooves off a elk quarter to pack it out, if you don't know where the joint is and how to, how to bend it and, and hit it just right to crack that off...
17. JRJoe Rogan
  That's a good point.
18. JDJohn Dudley
  And, you know, hips, shoulders, even taking the head off, I mean, you know.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  I think that too, but also your understanding of like the proper positioning of your shoulders and your elbow and everything in archery.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  I think just an understanding of the human body alone, you know, I think that, that helps you tremendously. It's one of the reasons why people that are really good at gymnastics excel at jujitsu. Uh, people who are really good at breakdancing.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, I saw that.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, breakdancers excel. Um, yoga, a lot of yoga people-
24. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that get really good at yoga, they can excel at jujitsu too. It's just you, you have a, just an understanding of what, what, the way your body moves.
26. JDJohn Dudley
  And mi- yeah, mind bo- mind, body just connection, like being able to, to really have a mind-muscle connection. Some people don't understand that. You tell them to do a pull-up and you're like, "You really wanna use lats." And they're like, "Well-"... what's that?
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, they don't know. They're just yanking.
28. JDJohn Dudley
  They have no idea. Yeah, they're just-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  ... pulling, and some people when they, when they pull a bow for the first time, even big guys, they struggle pulling a bow because they're not... Their technique's poor. So they're, you know, they're lifting up high and they're pulling all with bicep down, and it's like-
28:07 – 33:51
Elite archery standards: distances, scoring perfection, and tournament pressure
1. JDJohn Dudley
  It's like that in my field too. I mean, I stay... I, I guess I stay honed, but I'm not, like, razor sharp-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. JDJohn Dudley
  ... in my field just because-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  So, like, you mean pr- like target archery?
5. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Like if you were gonna compete?
7. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, people all the time say, "Why, why don't you-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  You wanna compete?
9. JDJohn Dudley
  ... you, why don't you compete?" And it... Can I shoot better than most people at this point? S- y- yeah. You know, I can answer that without question. Can I shoot at a, at a wor- like, could I have beat myself when I was shooting on the teams? No way. Like, that was a different person. And when I stepped away for, for two or three years, even though I contemplated coming back, I'm like, "This commitment is gonna take a year, two years of really fine-tuning." 'Cause I mean, at those levels, people don't miss, you know? So missing one or two still means it's a burnt weekend. It's still a burnt tournament. Like, you have to be flawless. And if you're not flawless, then all you're doing is donating money.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  And when you competed in those tournaments, what's the distance?
11. JDJohn Dudley
  It depended. There's several different formats. Um, anywhere from 18 meters, which you are shooting at something the size of a dime, um, and most of those, you know, like a 600 round, you would need to be... You know, then I was shooting, like, you know, upper 590s, um, at something the size of a dime.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Explain. Explain what that means.
13. JDJohn Dudley
  So, like, um, to hit that (arrow hits board) , to hit that X the size of a dime is a 10, so you would have to, you know, literally-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  60 times.
15. JDJohn Dudley
  ... y- yeah. Out of 60 arrows, in, in, like, in tournament play, you would have to hit that dime, you know, 57 times. Um, and then, you know, when we went out to the longer distances, uh, up to 90 meters, I mean, you have to be shooting something a little bit larger than, than the end of that coffee cup. You know, you'd have to, you'd have to be deadly accurate with that thing. I mean, you're gonna have to be in, in the high 90 percentile of being able to hit that.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  And you also get used to the competition. You get sharper because your mind's in that place.
17. JDJohn Dudley
  Well, that-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  You're there all the time.
19. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. That's the hardest part. Even if you're on the game, which there's been times, like this past summer, um, I had a event that I did for, um, a Cabela's experience, where some of the Cabela's black signature card members kind of-... I guess, bought an experience and I did, um, some training at the Easton Center with them. And then we went and shot the Total Archery Challenge in, in Utah. And, you know, we talked. I talked through the technicalities of what you would do on each shot as a-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Explain what the Total Archery Challenge is for people.
21. JDJohn Dudley
  Total Archery Challenge is a tournament that... Or it's not even a tournament, it's more of a fun event where they set... It's in Snowbird and they set archery targets like in real hunting situations, but with very, very technical shots. Extreme angles, longer distances, you got crosswinds and canyons, po-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And Snowbird, for people who don't know, is a ski course.
23. JDJohn Dudley
  Y- yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  What is that?
25. GUGuest
  Sorry, that was... I actually had the video there.
26. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) And, uh, yeah, it's just very technical because your- the footing's poor.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, here it is.
28. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, this is a-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, this is the Total Archery Challenge. So it's really interesting because it's in the summertime but it's at a ski place.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
33:51 – 38:44
Doping in archery: testing pools, beta blockers, and 3D shoot controversies
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Somebody got stripped of a title because they tested positive for THC and beta blockers.
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  This is real recent, right?
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh, yeah. Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  (coughs)
6. JDJohn Dudley
  When I competed, um, so I mean, yeah, you, uh, you're... Depending on what level you're at, there was... Because I shot with the, the US team, certain tournaments didn't have doping. And then but when you shot anything that was on a world level, you did. So I was always in a doping pool. So, you know, it was no different than like when I was, I was, uh, with Chad Mendes at a turkey hunt and-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  You mean a testing pool?
8. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. Mm-hmm.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. So they would test your blood or your urine? What would they test?
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Either one, yeah. And you would be on call. You'd have to let them know.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Have you ever tried beta blockers? What does that... What do they do? You ever try them?
12. JDJohn Dudley
  Well, th- no, the... It's supposed to, um, block-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Kills your nerves, right?
14. JDJohn Dudley
  I would think it blocks adrenaline.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Right? The ability for your brain to ad- to dump adrenaline. So yeah, the, the number one thing in archery or any type of finesse sport is, you know, low heart rate, keeping your heart rate down, 'cause that's obviously keep, you know, keeping your mind in the game. Um, and stability, very minimal movements. So yeah, there's, um... I remember I had a coach a long time ago. He talked about, um, alcohol and how alcohol could help shooter- 'Cause we, I, we were talking about a guy that had done well at tournaments several times and I said, "Yeah, he always does good." And he said, "Yeah, he's always, he's always drunk."
17. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
18. JDJohn Dudley
  And I'm like, "What do you mean?" And he said, "Well," he goes, "if you play alcohol the right way and you're, like, not sloppy drunk but you're..." He goes-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Got a little buzz?
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, he just, like, stays in his zone and he's just kinda sitting there drinking the whole time. And that was but, like, prior to where they were testing for alcohol. So he actually made us, uh... He said, "All right. Well, let's see how you, how you do if you shoot when you have a buzz going." So, you know, we, we drank and shot. And, uh... You know, don't try this at home, kids.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
22. JDJohn Dudley
  Uh, (laughs) it wasn't at an archery range where they have to buy insurance or whatever. But, uh, yeah, and it, you know, it... That was part of it, because at the time, this was in the mid '90s, another archer that had won a bunch of titles also tested positive for beta blockers and ha- had some titles stripped. Um, but then for the longest time, that was one of my complaints, was once I was shooting, um, at a level with, with the teams and we were, we had to go through testing or be te- Like, if... For example, at an event when I medaled, if you're in the top three, immediately you get tested. I mean, so that's how it is. So you know everyone there is level.... they're all level. But then you go to other events, like for example, some of the biggest money events were the 3D shoots, and that was a big reason why I left those shoots because at those tournaments, there was no-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  (coughs)
24. JDJohn Dudley
  ... testing. There was no testing. There was clearly guys there that were shooting that were kind of just out of it. There could be $50,000 on the line and there was just no- not a sweat cracked because there were, you know, some of that stuff, obviously, it is a performance enhancer because of the fact they're not having to deal with adrenaline spikes and accelerated heart rate.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  For people who don't know what we're talking about, 3D shoots are a type of tournament where (clears throat) they have those, uh, realistic looking targets, so foam elks or a foam bear and they have-
26. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... areas that you're supposed to hit.
28. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, and the, and, um, the other thing-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  (clears throat)
30. JDJohn Dudley
  ... was I didn't like the fact that, um, at that time, when you scored, it was just based off if there's four guys in the group, whatever the majority voted, that's how it scored. And when there's a lot of money on the line-
38:44 – 41:17
Rollercoaster anxiety: rickety rides, derailments, and ‘Florida’ jokes
1. JDJohn Dudley
  ... it doesn't get much sketchier than that, uh, rollercoaster we were on yesterday.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. We, we did the rollercoaster at New York-New York. Oof. Sketch city.
3. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
4. JRJoe Rogan
  That thing felt like it was tied together with bubblegum.
5. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) duct tape.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  I couldn't believe how rickety it was.
7. JDJohn Dudley
  Dental floss.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  It feels so uncomfortable. You're like, "Wait a minute, this is just way... It's old, it's outside." Everything's outside. You're f- flying around the, the casino itself, like, and the whole thing just feels like it shouldn't be there.
9. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. It, the, I think there's several things there that are a little outdated. (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
11. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. I was in the, I was, I was one row behind you guys and, uh, I, I was next to this kid who had never ridden a rollercoaster and he was terrified. Like, he was terrified and I thought, "Have I just not been on one of these long, for that long to where this feels like it could possibly shake off and we could launch onto, like..." (laughs)
12. JRJoe Rogan
  When was the last time a rollercoaster did break loose? Like, when was the last time someone-
13. SPSpeaker
  There was something last year, I believe that happened.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Something happened last year?
15. SPSpeaker
  Yeah. Let me see.
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Don't show him.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm. When those carnivals roll into town-
18. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that's, that's on you.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
21. JRJoe Rogan
  If you get on one of those fucking things... I was at one a couple of years back and I took a picture of it for Instagram because there was, uh, this, one of those whirly wind things. Oh, "Rollercoaster derails, two riders fall 30 feet to the ground at Daytona Beach."
22. JDJohn Dudley
  Oh.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, don't show me this.
24. SPSpeaker
  I think that's just afterwards it looks like.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, that's it hanging?
26. SPSpeaker
  Yeah, I don't think they shot the live video.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, Jesus Christ.
28. SPSpeaker
  Yeah. Oof.
29. JDJohn Dudley
  Zebras.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Daytona Beach, but that's Florida. See?
41:17 – 46:35
Texas land, exotics, and the ethics of high-fence hunting
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Texas is a fascinating place. It's one of the weird states that almost all the land is private. That's a r- that's a rare thing. Like, w- there's a public land system in this country with, you know, the Bureau of Land Management and (clears throat) all the different national parks. There's like none of that in Texas, you know? Texas is mostly just private ranches.
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  That's weird, right?
4. JDJohn Dudley
  It's very weird, yeah. It's very weird. There's been roads I've been down where you're just driving and for miles and miles and miles, it's nothing but high fence.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
6. JDJohn Dudley
  It's like people's private ranch is just, like, gated in.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
8. JDJohn Dudley
  You know?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  It's strange because they have these ranches that they seem like wilderness because the ranch would be like 10,000 acres, right? But it's, if it's 10,000 acres, it's fenced in. And part of you goes, "Well hey man, the whole country's fe- fenced in." You get to the ocean, you can't go any further.
10. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
11. JRJoe Rogan
  That shit's kind of like a fence.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  I've heard that excuse, but there you go.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  That's how I look at it.
14. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  You go far enough north, you hit the, the ice.
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  You hit the glaciers.
18. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Where you going?
20. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) But there's something about that kind of experience, like, that's one of the, the weirder things about Texas is that they have these enormous fenced in properties where they have all these African animals running around.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Like nilgai and elands and-
24. JDJohn Dudley
  You name it.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. And there, there-
26. JDJohn Dudley
  Zebras.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... they have more-... of those-
28. JDJohn Dudley
  Wildebeests.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  ... animals running around in Texas than they do in the wild of their countries. Like oryx.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
46:35 – 59:06
The ‘secret spot’ code on public land: courtesy vs ownership arguments
1. JRJoe Rogan
  You know? And they feel like that is the most ethical way. There's a lot of weird debates about public land too. Here's one that really gets me. There's a lot of people that are really into public land. And they, they're, uh, public land is super important to them. They want, they only wanna hunt public land, but they have secret spots on public land they don't want anybody to know about them. And if you tell someone about their spot on public land, they'll get mad at you. Like if you take someone to a spot... I've heard, uh, Rinella talk about this on his show, like he's a big public land guy.
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  But he'll talk on his show about what a betrayal it is if you tell a person about a spot and they tell someone else, else about that spot-
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... or they go to that spot without you.
6. JDJohn Dudley
  Hmm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  I'm like, "What the fuck are you talking about? Is this public land or is it not?"
8. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  And if it's not, if it is public land, if you're telling someone about a spot, you're telling me that this public land spot, you don't want them going to without you?
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Not unless they find it on their own.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  That is fucking ridiculous, right?
12. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
13. JRJoe Rogan
  That's ridiculous. That's like you have a private-
14. JDJohn Dudley
  It's a fine line.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  ... spot.
16. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, it's a-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  You have a private spot on public land, so you're a public land guy until it infringes on your own privacy.
18. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Like you figured out a way to have a private spot on public land. And if you share this private spot with someone else, they're not allowed to go there without you. Fuck you. That's crazy.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) Dude, that's-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  It's either-
22. JDJohn Dudley
  ... the number one rule in fishing too, if someone takes-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  But it's either private or it's not.
24. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, but if someone takes you to a sweet little spot where they just rip lips constantly on, on a lake, and then next thing you know, they go out there on the weekend and you're sitting there in your boat with a bunch of buddies.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  That's stupid. This is-
26. JDJohn Dudley
  They're gonna get mad.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Is this a public lake or not?
28. JDJohn Dudley
  They're gonna be like, "Bro, I took you to my spot." (laughs)
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, they're assholes.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs)
59:06 – 1:08:06
Montana pack-out surprise: the bear that buried an elk—and wolf country memories
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Can you talk about what happened with Montana with the, the bear?
2. JDJohn Dudley
  Um, yeah. I mean, I can talk about it. They actually texted me back and ruled back that it was not a grizzly, which-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  What?
4. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. They say it's a, um, a colored black bear.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Do you think that's true?
6. JDJohn Dudley
  Um, yeah, it's possible. I was gonna pull up the pictures, um, to show-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  It's an enormous black bear.
8. JDJohn Dudley
  Y- yeah. Yeah. It, uh-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  You thought it was a grizzly?
10. JDJohn Dudley
  Yep, yep. We shot a... Actually, um, our b- our mutual friend, Andy Stumpf, shot a bull on 9/11, which was, which was pretty, um, pretty cool for him to have an experience like that. And it took us, um, I forget how far out we were. It was several, several miles from camp and we had, it took us two trips to pack this bull out. And, uh, the first pack out that we did, I think we finally got back to camp, I don't know, somewhere around midnight or something. So the next morning we went back at first light, took us a while to pack back in there. And when we got there, um, half of the carcass... I had already pulled everything apart, we had everything in game bags, everything was strung up on trees, um, but the actual cavity was half buried. And as we were approaching, I seen something kinda running off and f- by the coloration on the hide, I really thought for sure it was a griz, um, because I've seen lots of them. And we got up there and sure enough, it was, it was buried, so we kind of took a lot of precaution as we were trying to-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And tell people, just explain to people what that means.
12. JDJohn Dudley
  So a grizzly, um, they will bury something that they find, and they, I think they do it for a couple reasons. One of the reasons is they want, they don't want, um, like prey birds like crows and stuff to be able to see it, 'cause they'll start talking and then other predators in the area listen for those birds. And then, you know, it's kind of a magnet, starts to draw, so they like to conceal it. So they'll literally kind of pivot on a circle around that kill and, and actually claw the ground and, and bury them. And it's pre- like I've seen, uh, where grizzlies bury a full moose and it's, it is r-... ridiculous the type of dirt they can move. I'm talking it looks like a skid loader came in there and buried these things. And they can do, they can do that kind of work fairly quick. Um, but they'll pile up everything around it and then they kind of, normally they'll create one small little hole at the end of that mound where they'll kind of crawl in there and they literally like eat from one side to the other side-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
14. JDJohn Dudley
  ... you know. And, uh, and it's, (laughs) it's normally, uh, the back end first. Um, so yeah, I felt like we had just got there when this bear had just discovered the carcass and had just started the burial process 'cause, you know, he hadn't pulled anything out of the trees. He had only started to cover the, the carcass, which normally they'll cover that seal first, then they'll clean up the scraps around and then they go to their pile and kind of consume that last. Um, but I was certain that we had seen one. We ended up seeing a wildlife biologist, uh, later on and I told him, you know, "I thought I saw a griz." And he told me, he said, "Well, it's pretty important if you did because there hasn't been one naturally on this hill in, I think he said 100 years." So he's like, you know, "Would you be willing to go back in there to put a camera up?" Which is not smart if it was a, if it was a grizzly it's, I mean, obviously, they're gonna be, depending on their demeanor, they could be very protective of that. Um, but, uh, we did end up going back in there just to put the camera up, and then after the camera was there a few weeks, he sent a picture and said, "You were close to being right." It's just a perfectly colored, uh, black bear that looks like, like it would be a grizzly. But it-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  How does he know for sure?
16. JDJohn Dudley
  You can tell by they don't have, um, uh-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  You thought it was a grizzly when you saw the photo.
18. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. They, they don't have a very... I thought it was a younger one, but they don't have a very distinct, um, hump on their back. And then-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
20. JDJohn Dudley
  ... the claw marks. See, he went in... You can tell a lot by the claws. So when you go in and you look at the tracks, that's also a really easy way 'cause like, like that bear that was, uh, wrestling Khabib, uh, you could see the claws. Like grizzlies have very, very distinct, uh, claws. So that was, uh... I'm just looking here so I can't really pull up the pic for everybody but-
21. JRJoe Rogan
  You can send it to Jamie. Let me check it out. Yeah. I could see that that's look... Yeah.
22. JDJohn Dudley
  And, and, and-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  That does actually kinda look like a brown bear now that I look at it.
24. JDJohn Dudley
  And then r-
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Or a black bear rather.
26. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah. And then running... The, the head is gonna be narrower.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
28. JDJohn Dudley
  And it took several pictures. Some of the pictures it looked more like a griz just 'cause of the coloration. Some of the pictures it didn't. So, um, you know, keep in mind, you know, mountain grizzlies will look a little bit different than like a coastal bear or, you know, an inland grizzly. But either way, it was, it was a bear that came in and, you know, covered the whole carcass and went to eat it, so.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Now when you were in Alberta, you went back to that place that you were talking about on the first podcast we ever did, where you had that encounter where you shot that elk that was just outside of that wolf den.
30. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
1:08:06 – 1:15:55
Predator-prey balance: wolves, tags, and why ‘nature will sort it out’ is tricky
1. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, they're, they're beasts. They're beast. That is, you know, I th- I think, I think their intelli- their intelligence level is, is super high. I think a lot of... You know, the more you're in the outdoors and you experience things, demeanors, and their, uh, their ability to survive. You know, you look at a, one of the... You look at an old grizzly that's been in those woods for 20 years, think of the experience level that thing has surviving every single day.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
3. JDJohn Dudley
  I mean, every day just maybe making a slight mistake, slipping up a little bit, almost getting jacked by another grizzly. And then you're like, "Oh, yep, I know not to do this, I know not to do that." I mean, their, their intelli- their intelligence level and their ability to function is extremely high. And, and wolves are... I mean, arguably, wolves probably get shot less than probably any of the other animals. I mean, they're inc-... They are incredibly smart. So yeah, I wouldn't d- I wouldn't doubt it, you know. It was, um... And they're, they, they were very after that. They were very, um, intent in that area for people to... They put up some pretty big bounties on the wolves, and they really went after 'em and, and knocked those herds down quite a bit. Because there was very few mule deer, like, very few mule deer. You'd hardly see a doe and a fawn. They had to cut the number of tags way down. Uh, elk. As soon as wolves will, like, howl at night, if a pack moves into an area and they howl, like, calling elk is just nonexistent. They just, everything's just like, "Don't say nothin'," 'cause, you know, they're here. Um, so yeah, I think, I think them thinning 'em down was, was very relevant. And since then, which was quite a while ago, um, the numbers of, like, elk and moose. I s- like this past year, I saw way more moose than I've seen. Um, I think they're really hard on moose fawns. Um, and yeah, I mean, moose, mulies, white tails. I saw way more animals this year, uh, than in the past up there. And I think it's just because that moose numb- or the wolf number was just much lower. Um, but there was, like I said, there was still sign that there was some in the area, just nothing like several years ago when I was there. It, it was, you know, it was... Even I would say, as much as I appreciate balance in nature, it was excessive. And it's gettin' that way now, like even in Wisconsin. I remember, I was talking to a friend of mine, um, up in an area I used to live up by, kind of in the La Crosse area. I actually lived a little northeast of La Crosse by a small town called Cataract. And there was a few times where there were some wolf spottings. Um, there's a big military base there called Fort McCoy, and I lived up on the northern side of the base, um, what was called the impact area. They kind of shot test rounds over and they kind of, I don't know, went off there or whatever. But there was an incredible number of, like, deer and things that were in there. So, you know, kind of the rumor was that they had introduced wolves into there, timber wolves, to let... to kind of thin down some of those numbers. Well, now it's to the point where the amount of people I know in Wisconsin that see wolves is just rapidly increasing. And obviously when that happens, you know, they eat stuff. (laughs) I mean, wolves don't mess around. They take stuff down. And sometimes it's just strange you don't understand the balance of, um, of why there's an introduction to something that, you know, has the possibility to just take over. You know, it's, it's strange.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, it is, but it's also, there needs to be some sort of balance.
5. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  You don't want the animals overpopulating, and you do want some sort of a balance between predator and prey. But the real problem becomes when people don't wanna manage the predators.
7. JDJohn Dudley
  Right.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  They only want... They, they want nature to sort itself out.
9. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  It does- it doesn't really work that way though.
11. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, it just... People need to understand, like, if you do like deer and you like moose and you like all these other animals, you can't have too many wolves. You can't have-
13. JDJohn Dudley
  Prey animals.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... too many... Yeah.
15. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  You can't have too many grizzlies because if you do, you're gonna have very few of those other animals. You're not gonna see them. They're gonna get wiped out. And in some places, like, they're almost at the, the point of extinction. Like what d- what d- what is that caribou herd that's in North America? This one small-
17. JDJohn Dudley
  I'm not, I'm not-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... caribou herd?
19. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, I'm not that familiar with it, 'cause I've never really been a, um, a caribou person, you know, from a hunting aspect.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  But they're an animal that's, like, severely targeted by wolves.
21. JDJohn Dudley
  Ye- oh, yeah. Yeah, I could see it. Anything with a very predictable migration is gonna be very prone to, you know, to any type of prey creature. You look at, you look at, uh, any of the migrations of, like, wildebeests and stuff like that in Africa where they're having to migrate, it's like those crocs are just like, "Oh yeah, here we go."
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Yeah, we know, we know where that river crossing is.
23. JDJohn Dudley
  (laughs) We know where the neck down is.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
25. JDJohn Dudley
  It's the same thing. It's just-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, caribou, you know, I mean, I'm sure you knew this but many people don't. Uh, the females actually have antlers, and the reason why they have antlers is to fend off wolves.
27. JDJohn Dudley
  I didn't know that.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, female caribou have antlers.
29. JDJohn Dudley
  Yeah, I di-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  They're one of the only deer species where the females have antlers.

Episode duration: 1:40:09

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Doping in archery: testing pools, beta blockers, and 3D shoot controversies

Rollercoaster anxiety: rickety rides, derailments, and ‘Florida’ jokes

Texas land, exotics, and the ethics of high-fence hunting

The ‘secret spot’ code on public land: courtesy vs ownership arguments

Montana pack-out surprise: the bear that buried an elk—and wolf country memories

Predator-prey balance: wolves, tags, and why ‘nature will sort it out’ is tricky

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