Joe Rogan Experience #1198 - Derren Brown

Joe Rogan 0:02 Four, three, two, boom. What's up, man? How are you?

Derren Brown 0:09 Hello.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Thanks for being here.

Derren Brown 0:11 I'm pleased, uh... Well, I'm pleased, uh, to get here. It's a, kind of a strange day in this part of LA, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 0:17 This is as strange as it ever gets.

Derren Brown 0:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:18 The, the big concern in Los Angeles has always been, according to a firefighter that I talked to once, that the right wind catches a fire and it takes it all the way through Los Angeles down to the coast.

Derren Brown 0:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:30 It's not quite that. It didn't go through Hollywood. It didn't go... They think one day it's gonna happen-

Derren Brown 0:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:35 ... and with the right wind, they're not gonna be able to stop it, but-

Derren Brown 0:38 Jesus, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:38 This is pretty bad. This is about as bad as I've ever seen. It happened all in one day.

Derren Brown 0:43 Yeah. It was extraordinary driving down the road to get here. Just these huge just p- (laughs) just huge, pillowy, the... I thought it was just, you know, mountains, and I thought it was a strange cloud formation, but it was just simply-

Joe Rogan 0:57 Smoke?

Derren Brown 0:58 ... smoke, yeah. Terrifying.

Joe Rogan 0:58 Yeah, it looks like a giant gray mountain-

Derren Brown 1:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01 ... in the distance.

Derren Brown 1:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02 It's, it's insane how bad it's gotten. I've, I've had it happen, um, three... This is the third time I've been evacuated-

Derren Brown 1:09 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:09 ... since I've moved here 20 plus years ago.

Derren Brown 1:12 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:12 Yeah, it gets rough, but this is the roughest I've ever seen. Jamie and I were doing the podcast yesterday, and when it was over, I had like five text messages from friends that live in my neighborhood saying how bad it was. And then when we got home, the wind was just crazy and it just, it's just... It's humbling. You know, I mean, it's super unfortunate for all the, the people that are, uh, losing their homes and, and losing their, you know, losing their property. But the reality is, this is, um, it's nature. You know?

Derren Brown 1:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:42 This is just something that you just can't avoid.

Derren Brown 1:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:44 There's nothing you can do about it. It gets dry like this, and I don't know what started it. I hope it wasn't a cigarette.

Derren Brown 1:50 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:50 That's the big... 'Cause I see so many morons throwing cigarettes-

Derren Brown 1:53 So it's that kind of a thing?

Joe Rogan 1:54 ... out the window when they're dry.

Derren Brown 1:54 It's not just a weather thing that just happens, it's, it is literally things like cigarettes and, uh ... Oh, Geez.

Joe Rogan 1:59 Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of the times, I mean, the, the weather certainly accentuates it because it's dry-

Derren Brown 2:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:05 ... and windy. Yeah, this is fire season.

Derren Brown 2:08 Uh, well, please be-

Joe Rogan 2:10 Anyway, hey-

Derren Brown 2:11 Please be all sat here, very nice-

Joe Rogan 2:12 Thanks for being here, man. (laughs)

Derren Brown 2:13 ... on these incredibly comfortable chairs.

Joe Rogan 2:15 They're not bad, right?

Derren Brown 2:16 They're amazing.

Joe Rogan 2:17 (laughs)

Derren Brown 2:18 Because they support your back as well, which-

Joe Rogan 2:20 Yeah.

Derren Brown 2:20 ... as a 47-year-old man is, is, uh, this is helpful. Sorry, I'm keep bouncing away from the microphone, which I'm sure isn't good. But yeah, they're incredible.

Joe Rogan 2:26 They keep you sitting straight.

Derren Brown 2:28 That's what they do. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:29 That's what they do. They accentuate your posture.

Derren Brown 2:30 Mm-hmm. They do. There you go.

Joe Rogan 2:33 So what's up, man? What are you doing in town for?

Derren Brown 2:34 Shoulders back, chest out.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Yeah. There you go.

Derren Brown 2:36 Torben would be proud.

Joe Rogan 2:37 There you go. (laughs)

Derren Brown 2:38 I'm here... Yeah, I'm here doing, uh, I'm here for a week. I've been, uh, I've got a show on Netflix that's come out, so I'm just kind of generally here to, uh, talk about it, I guess, and, uh, seeing a couple of friends and it's been a really nice, really nice week.

Joe Rogan 2:55 Yeah, this is a good way to end it too, with a giant fire that's just saying-

Derren Brown 2:58 Yeah, the giant fire.

Joe Rogan 2:58 ... "Darren, get the fuck outta here."

Derren Brown 3:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:00 "Quickly. These people are crazy living here," with no water and it never rains.

Derren Brown 3:05 Yeah. It'll be, it's very different back home. It'll be a, it'll... Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's amazing just at this time of year leaving England and coming to somewhere like... I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure you don't take it for granted, but you know, it's... It is amazing just for a-

Joe Rogan 3:20 The weather? Yeah.

Derren Brown 3:21 Just for a bit. Do you like, but do you like LA as a, like, as a place and a home and a, and a... Does it... I mean, you've got an amazing sort of setup here. Is it just a, is it a just a dream place to you? L.A.?

Joe Rogan 3:32 It's, uh, it's a love-hate relationship-

Derren Brown 3:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:35 ... certainly.

Derren Brown 3:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 The, the, the real problem is the population is just so insane. There's more than 20 million people, plus who knows people, you know, how many... They, they really don't have no idea how many people have snuck in.

Derren Brown 3:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:48 You know, it's, it's just a chaotic place. There's-

Derren Brown 3:51 And no public transport. It just hit me the other day.

Joe Rogan 3:53 (laughs)

Derren Brown 3:53 There's like, there's no, there were no trains. There's no infrastructure of, uh... So everyone's driving these huge-

Joe Rogan 3:57 Yeah.

Derren Brown 3:57 ... huge vehicles. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Everyone has an Escalade or-

Derren Brown 3:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 ... a Tesla or something. Yeah, it's, uh, it's just a strange place. There's... The highways are massive, you know, you have five, six lanes on each side and they're jammed solid where nothing's moving either way. And if you can see it from... The really... When you realize how preposterous it is when you're flying into LAX and you see the 405 highway in the distance and it's all stopped for as long as you could see, miles one way and miles the other way, just complete parking lot.

Derren Brown 4:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:26 And you just realize, wow, what are we doing here? They found a spot with great weather and, you know, and then the entertainment industry draws people in.

Derren Brown 4:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:37 I don't know. Maybe it's better to be in England to keep the rain a little bit of, a little bit of dreariness.

Derren Brown 4:43 I kind... Yeah, you see, I like a little bit of that.

Joe Rogan 4:44 Yeah.

Derren Brown 4:44 I like, I do like a bit of the old, uh... It's very nice. I take a lot of pictures and it's very nice, like when the rain clears and everything sort of glistens and that's a nice... That's a nice-

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah, your Instagram is interesting, you know, it's, it's surprising.

Derren Brown 4:55 I... Well, yeah, I mainly put... I paint and I do a lot of street photography, so those, those... I only got into Instagram recently and I've just been putting, putting that stuff on there, which I don't know how, uh, interesting it is generally to the world.

Joe Rogan 5:06 It is interesting.

Derren Brown 5:07 But it's a nice place to put that kind of stuff. I, I paint like these big portraits and they just end up sitting around my house. No one wants to buy it. No one wants to, you know, buy a giant picture of my mother, so they...

Joe Rogan 5:16 (laughs)

Derren Brown 5:16 I don't really sell them, so they just sit around. So actually, yeah, putting them on, but at least putting them online.

Joe Rogan 5:20 Yeah, there's your-

Derren Brown 5:21 Oh, there you go. That's not my mother, just for clarity.

Joe Rogan 5:24 Your stuff is really good.

Derren Brown 5:25 Well, thank you. Well, these are old caricatures that I used to-

Joe Rogan 5:28 The Tom Waits one is excellent. It's, uh, surprisingly good. You know, I mean, you think someone is really good at something like magic and you say, "Well, that's about as good as he's gonna get. It's not like he's gonna be that good at something else." But you are-

Derren Brown 5:42 (laughs) Oh, yeah, you're literally flicking through my Instagram. It's great.

Joe Rogan 5:44 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're a really good artist.

Derren Brown 5:47 Thank you very much, uh-

Joe Rogan 5:48 Have you done this your whole life?

Derren Brown 5:49 Uh, not yet. Um, yeah, pretty much, like as a, as a kid I used to draw and, and paint a lot and, uh, always faces like I'm, you know, no, no good anything else. But, uh, faces has always been my thing. So I used to do like these kind of, you know, caricatures and now I paint more sort of-... straight pictures, I guess. But it's nice. If you do something that's kind of, you know, public, it's nice to do something that's private. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 6:11 Yeah.

Derren Brown 6:12 ... it's that thing of something bigger than yourself to throw yourself into and to lose yourself in. And it's great, you know?

Joe Rogan 6:18 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 6:18 Days, weeks of, you know, just being in my studio is, is just, is lovely. It's a great thing.

Joe Rogan 6:24 Do you, you find that stuff like that clears your mind for your other work?

Derren Brown 6:29 I think it's, it's just the sheer contrast. You know, one of my favorite parts of the year is touring, and I, I get to do the shows in the evening, and then the days are free. And I'm like, I'm not in London, I'm in some other city, so no one c- (laughs) no one can, like, get me in for a meeting or anything. I just-

Joe Rogan 6:44 Right.

Derren Brown 6:44 ... have the days free and I can write, or I had a book on happiness that I wrote, which I wrote while I was on tour. And it was just this amazing routine of just finding a coffee shop, spending the day writing. And then if that does get a bit, you know, a bit boring or a bit s- you know, sad or something, if it's not quite coming together, you then, you then get to go out and be this amazingly (laughs) charismatic, well-rehearsed version of yourself on stage, which is, you know, full of adrenaline and lovely. So that, that's an amazing routine. I think that's my favorite, favorite thing. So, yeah, the, the painting and all that. Photography's an interesting one 'cause you, you, you find yourself on the one hand kind of slightly... 'Cause I do street photography, so it's kind of, you know, out taking pictures of candid moments, I guess. So you're, you're a step out of it, but you're also very open and engaged, and, and that feels like a really prime state. That's a, a very kind of porous, lovely state to be in. And having been used to keeping my head down out in public, 'cause I, I realize I'm not known here at all, but in the UK I am a bit. So I, if I, if I was out in public, I generally kind of naturally kind of hunkered down-

Joe Rogan 7:47 Tried to stay low-key.

Derren Brown 7:47 ... yeah, hunkered down a bit. But now it's the opposite.

Joe Rogan 7:49 Yeah.

Derren Brown 7:49 It's, uh, totally changed, uh, that relationship. So-

Joe Rogan 7:51 That's interesting.

Derren Brown 7:52 ... it's all good. Yeah, it's nice.

Joe Rogan 7:53 Just photography, just being out there taking pictures of things is just-

Derren Brown 7:56 Yeah, it's just, you're having to be-

Joe Rogan 7:58 Yeah.

Derren Brown 7:58 ... you know, mindful and open and alert, and, uh... But at the same time, 'cause I'm probably a little bit shy, so having that, that little step back thing as well, 'cause you're, you know, taking pictures, is, is, uh ... Uh, I find that a really, uh, a really great state. And it's a lovely contrast to the, uh, the shows and the, you know, the, the rest of it.

Joe Rogan 8:16 Were you always shy, or did you become more shy because of becoming really famous?

Derren Brown 8:23 I was always ... Well, not always. I th- I, I think I grew quite, um, I was probably quite insecure as a kid. I was very charming and very, um, uh, quite bright and quite, like, socially, you know, that was, that was all good. But I think, like, inside, I was, um, I was very intimidated by the kind of sporty kids. You would have terrified me-

Joe Rogan 8:46 (laughs)

Derren Brown 8:47 ... as a, as a, as a child. Um, and, uh, I-

Joe Rogan 8:51 Athletic kids, like kids who played sports.

Derren Brown 8:53 Yeah, just ... Yeah, yeah, just that exact, 'cause I really didn't fit in-

Joe Rogan 8:55 Yeah.

Derren Brown 8:55 ... with any of that. Um, and so, like, when I first started ... I'm l- Like, I started my career as a hypnotist, and I, I saw this guy performing at university, and I, uh, I just thought, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna do that." It just... I, and I didn't realize at the time all these boxes that it was ticking, you know, performing, that sort of, you know, need for affirmation and, and, and love and center of attention, and also the control aspect of it, you know? The kind of, um, uh, yeah, the control aspect. And also, the kind of people, particularly the sort of guys that would respond well to hypnosis and come up on stage and, you know, uh, and respond well to it tended to be exactly the kind of guys (laughs) that would have really intimidated me before. So that was, like, at a, at an unconscious level, uh, and I hope I've grown out of that now m- m- mainly. But, uh, yeah, it ticked a lot of, it ticked a lot of boxes. So th- that, that was, that's how I started, and yeah, it was definitely driven by insecurity. 'Cause any s- any sort of magic, which sort of followed for me, on from the hypnosis, you're basically ... It is the quickest, most fraudulent route to impressing people. That's, you know-

Joe Rogan 9:57 (laughs)

Derren Brown 9:57 ... the subtext is only, you know, "Look at me. Aren't I great?" Which is not that interesting after a, after a while. So I've tried to, you know, as I've, as I've grown up, I've tried to move it into a different area, and one that's a little more resonant than just showing off.

Joe Rogan 10:10 That's fascinating that you started out doing a, a hypnosis show. Was it a comedy show? Like-

Derren Brown 10:15 No, it was sort of, um ... I would mainly perform at, like, uh, colleges, and I'd do a demonstration and then have questions and after, uh, questions and answers afterwards. And I wasn't making people look stupid. It was an entertainment show, and I guess it was kind of, you know, funny. But it was, um, it was, uh, it's just a really interesting thing. And the-

Joe Rogan 10:36 Yeah.

Derren Brown 10:36 ... trouble with doing it on stage is, of course, it gets mixed up with people just kind of playing along and stuff. So it, it, it's ... But if you take that out of it, it's just a really interesting area. And I've done this stuff for, you know, 20 years back home. And I'm not, I don't think of myself as a hypnotist. That was just kind of where I, where I started. But the, the, the suggestion-based techniques of that is something I've continued with and brought into different areas. And I still don't fully understand it, you know, now. It's, there's ... You can never quite climb in, you know, inside someone's head and know what they're experiencing. Like, I used to do, in the, when I used to do these, like, stage hypnosis shows, the last thing I did was to ... I'd tell these people on stage that I was invisible, right? And I'd, I'd float something through the air, right, like this bottle I've got here. And, uh, it was normally something bigger, like a chair. And they'd be freaking out and, you know, running off stage and so on. But afterwards, when I'd have this kind of Q&A, I'd, um, I'd ask them, "Well, what was your, what was your actual experience? Like, like, the show's over now, be honest, what were you, what were you experiencing?" And you'd get some people that would say, "Well, yeah, you were obviously just floating that. You were just holding it, but I kind of felt like I had to play along." And then you'd get this interesting area in the middle of, of like, "Well, I kind of ... I, now when I think back, yes, of course it was you, but I, it was, and I sort of knew it was you, but I e- emotionally just completely, I could only experience it as a terrifying floating bottle," or whatever it was. So that's a bit like an actor, like, getting caught up in a role, I guess.

Joe Rogan 11:56 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 11:56 Like, they know, they know they're on stage and it's a character, but nonetheless emotionally committed. And then the other extreme people that would not accept that it was me floating it, just they, "That must've been on a wire or something. There's no, there's no way that I can drop you back in the picture in my memory of that thing." So, how do you, you know, how do you, how do you judge what that experience is when there's ... And, and are those people that are saying-... know you were really invisible? Are they just saying that 'cause they wanna be, like, the best subjects in that-

Joe Rogan 12:19 Mm.

Derren Brown 12:20 ... in that group? I mean-

Joe Rogan 12:20 Right.

Derren Brown 12:21 ... how do you, how do you tease it all apart? It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 12:22 That is the, is that, that must be a real issue, right? The people that just wanna please you-

Derren Brown 12:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:27 ... and are playing along. How, can you tell when, if you were hypnotizing people?

Derren Brown 12:32 I can tell, yeah, I can tell. But I, the way I use it now is kind of, I use it quite sort of subtly in the show. I don't, like, overtly, you know, hypnotize people. Um, so that means, well, it can mean one of two things. It either means it, it, it just, I'm not interested in people playing along because I'm not just trying to create the effect of someone hypnotized. They need to genuinely be responding to this thing in order for the next bit to work, uh, in which case I have to filter out anybody playing along. But occasionally, occasionally it doesn't matter. Like, a lot of the time, like, I'll get people up on stage and I'll shake their hand, and there are the, there's a rapid handshake induction that the guy just, you know, just falls to the floor. Um, and there are times that that matters and they have to be, that has to be a really honest response. Other times I can tell they're sort of half into it and they're just a bit intimidated, and, but for the 2,000 people looking, that might look, it kinda might look like the same thing, and then it won't matter so much.

Joe Rogan 13:24 So what, what, exactly, how does that, exactly does that work?

Derren Brown 13:26 The handshake induction?

Joe Rogan 13:26 Yeah.

Derren Brown 13:27 Okay. Well, it's, it's a, uh, (laughs) I take no responsibility for explaining this to your tens of millions of listeners and viewers. Um, but, uh, it's, it's, you're, you're interrupting a, an automatic process, right? This is the, this is the key to it. It was made popular by, um, made popular by, I guess, Richard Bandler, who's the guy behind NLP and so on. Um, I don't know if he kind of created this thing, but perhaps, uh, perhaps Erickson did before him. I don't know. Anyway. You, you, you take an automatic process and you interrupt it in the middle. So like, when you're shaking hands with somebody, that's a, such a familiar process that when you start, you're not thinking, okay, I'm gonna grip this person's hand now, and I'm gonna move my hand up and down with them a few times. Then I'll take my hand away. You just kind of do it automatically. Um, and there's something about interrupting that that leaves people f- really flummoxed and, and bewildered, 'cause they're really, uh, really caught off guard. Like, if you imagine somebody comes up to you in the street and says, "It's not half past seven," you know, your reaction isn't to go, "Yeah, yeah, I know. It's, uh, 20 past nine." Your reaction is t- is to sort of, you, you think like you've missed something, like you're trying to make sense of it. It's a strange, uh, kind of puts you on the back foot. And at that point, if you t- if you've got somebody who's fairly suggestible and people coming up on stage, it's such an odd moment for them anyway, they're naturally very suggestible, that a clear instruction to sleep or whatever you wanna give them tends to be taken very deeply. And very often then you'll see I'll shake hands and I'll, I'll break the pattern of the handshake, so I'll, I'll often take their hand and lift it up to their face and say, "Sleep," and show them their hand like that. Or, or-

Joe Rogan 15:03 And they just sleep?

Derren Brown 15:04 And, well, it's not sleep, but it's-

Joe Rogan 15:06 (laughs) But they-

Derren Brown 15:06 ... a kind of, um, y- it looks like... I mean, they, they'll do anything from eyes closed, head drops down, to just drop like a, like a dead weight on the floor. You know what I found that's most interesting actually, was, um, like, applying this in slightly more useful everyday situations, was as a sort of, um, like a self-defense technique. I was walking, uh, between... So I was like, must have been like 20 or something, and I was at a magic convention. And I was walking from one hotel to another, and I'm dressed in, like, a three-piece velvet suit.

Joe Rogan 15:39 (laughs)

Derren Brown 15:39 I was this skinny British lad. I might, might as well have, you know, "Punch me in the throat" tattooed across my face. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:44 (laughs)

Derren Brown 15:44 And this guy comes up and he's like a, he's drunk, uh, it's about 3:00 in the morning, drunk, aggressive, he's with his girlfriend, clearly looking for a fight. And, uh, he sort of, he comes up to me and he says, "What, what are you, what are you fucking looking at? What are you looking at?" And because I'd spoken about this, how to deal with this sort of thing, but I'd never found myself in this situation, I kind of had it all mentally rehearsed. So I said to him, I said, "The wall outside my house isn't four foot high." And-

Joe Rogan 16:13 (laughs)

Derren Brown 16:13 ... I guess there's an equivalent to this with a sort of adrenaline dump, I think it's called in, uh, in martial arts. But there's a, it, it just, like, he's got all this adrenaline, and then a thing like that from me, which is just out of context, like, it makes sense. I'm not, like, talking gibberish.

Joe Rogan 16:25 Right.

Derren Brown 16:25 It makes sense, but it's just out of context.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Right.

Derren Brown 16:27 So now suddenly he's thinking, "I've, what? I've missed something." So now he, he was sort of, he went, "What?" And I said, and then his, his girlfriend walked off, and I said, "The, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high. I spent some time in Spain. The walls there were very high, but if you look at the ones here, they're, they're tiny, they're nothing." (laughs) And then he just sort of broke down. He sort of went, "Wah." And, uh-

Joe Rogan 16:48 Started crying?

Derren Brown 16:49 Well, you know, he, no, it wasn't quite crying, but it was just, it was like all the adrenaline and everything just, just flooded out of him. And he sat down-

Joe Rogan 16:57 (laughs)

Derren Brown 16:57 ... and I end up sitting next to him on the, uh, like, you know, on the roadside, um, asking him, you know, so what... I was, the plan was I was gonna try and stick his feet to the floor, and I had this whole plan, but he just kind of collapsed and sat down. So I, so I just-

Joe Rogan 17:09 You were gonna stick his feet to the floor with hypnosis? (laughs)

Derren Brown 17:09 I was gonna stick his feet... Yeah, that was the, 'cause I knew it'd be like this highly suggestible state. And like either way, the, the moment of aggression-

Joe Rogan 17:16 Oh.

Derren Brown 17:16 ... had passed. But I ended up, ended up weirdly sitting with him asking him what had happened that evening, and his girlfriend had, I think she'd bottled somebody or something horrible had happened.

Joe Rogan 17:23 Oh, Jesus.

Derren Brown 17:24 So he'd got out with all this aggression. But it's a, it's a good one, isn't it? If you just have like, um, it could be just a song lyric or just some, some weird kind of thing that you can just go into in, in those situations that... I mean, if someone's running at you with a knife, it's a bit difficult, but the, you just, you, you're kind of strangely taking control of a situation. Otherwise, what are you gonna do? If they say, "What are you looking at?" Y- you can't, y- there's no way you can answer that without being on the back foot.

Joe Rogan 17:48 Right.

Derren Brown 17:48 So it just kind of nicely kind of inverts the situation and puts them on the back foot, which anyway, it worked. It was, uh, it was kind of fun.

Joe Rogan 17:56 Uh, isn't there, like, a process required to hypnotize someone? You could just do it that way and saying it, just talk them through some sort of a program that makes them think their foot is stuck to the floor?

Derren Brown 18:07 I, it, it all depends on the moment. I had, I used to hypnotize people in my, um, (laughs) in my room when I was a student, right? So I was the guy that did hypnosis.

Joe Rogan 18:17 Right.

Derren Brown 18:17 So I'd have people coming, you know, regularly coming to, to try it out. And, um, I had this w-... this one time, I used to leave people with... Like, if they were responsive to it, and this was like... It was really early days. It was like, you know, 20 minutes, half an hour of relaxing somebody and maybe suggesting that their hands were getting light and floating or heavy and they couldn't lift them. So kind of, you know, kind of basic stuff. But I would leave them, if they were very suggestible, with the instruction that when you come back, if I click my fingers, you'll go back into the sleep state. And they, you know, they kind of get conditioned to that. And it, you know, it'll often work, even like a week later. And this guy came and, uh, I thought I'd seen him before. I thought he'd been on a previous week. So he sat down, I went, "Okay, look at me and sleep," (snaps fingers) clicked my fingers, and he went out, whatever that means, right? And then we did whatever it was, maybe, you know, perhaps he wanted to stop smoking or his hands floating in the air, whatever it was. And at the end of it, I realized in talking to him that I hadn't met him before. So then I'm like, "Well, how did, how did... Why did you respond to me clicking my fingers?" Because, uh, I don't have magic fingers. There's nothing like-

Joe Rogan 19:17 Right.

Derren Brown 19:17 ... anything going on here other than... And I realized it was just that, it was just that moment of my kind of confidence with it and the fact, fortuitously, that he was also very suggestible, and put those two things together, and it, that's what made it work. It was just that, that psychological moment for him that was more important than the nature of the 20-minute script that I'd been learning and using up to that point. So that was kind of a-

Joe Rogan 19:39 Wow.

Derren Brown 19:39 ... that was a seminal, that was a seminal moment for me.

Joe Rogan 19:41 So your confidence in that he had already been under?

Derren Brown 19:44 Yeah. I didn't question it, 'cause I really-

Joe Rogan 19:45 Right.

Derren Brown 19:45 ... I believed he had. And it, so it just kind of, it just sort of happened. And then he just... If he hadn't been a suggestible type, then it probably wouldn't have worked.

Joe Rogan 19:53 Yeah.

Derren Brown 19:53 But luckily, he was, and that kind of really, really changed the way that I, uh, that I, you know, thought about hypnosis. And also started this, you know, this realization that ultimately, my, my kind of toolkit with what I do is, is the stories that people are telling themselves. That's, that's kind of... That's really, you know, all there is. E- even a magician showing you a card trick is just getting you to tell yourself a story, edit, edit this event in such a way that you go, "Oh, you know, I picked a card and then it disappeared, and it was in, it was in my pocket. He never went near me." And you edit out all the bits that don't seem important, like when he complimented you on your jacket earlier on in the day and may have stuck a-

Joe Rogan 20:32 Hmm.

Derren Brown 20:33 ... card in there, or the bit where he took the card back for a moment, whatever, 'cause you don't... You know, you're, you're being sold a story with particular sort of edit points. And, you know, it's, to me, that's interesting, because that's what, that's what life is, you know? We have this infinite data source coming at us and we can... We just, we have to kind of reduce it to stories to make, to make sense. So I think stripping aside all the kind of vaudeville and tacky associations of hypnotists and magicians and so on, I think there's something, there's something interesting at the heart of it. I think that, that our storytelling capacity is kind of endlessly fascinating to me.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Well, it's fascinating in that regard, but it's also fascinating that there seem- there seems to be like some cheat code to the human mind.

Derren Brown 21:15 Mm.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Like there's a, there's a way you can, like, lock into like an admin panel, and all of a sudden you're, you're doing things, like telling people they don't, really don't wanna be smoking or putting them into this hypnotic mindset by just snapping your fingers and saying, "Sleep." Like, it's odd.

Derren Brown 21:31 I don't think... But I still think it is that. I think it looks like that, and that's the-

Joe Rogan 21:34 Right.

Derren Brown 21:34 ... problem, because it look... It, it, it's... You so often see it when performers are doing it, when they're often going for a kind of theatrical effect. If you go and look at it like a clinical, uh, environment where hypnosis is being investigated, it, it isn't like that at all.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 21:48 Um, it's much more, uh, kind of boring in a way. So it doesn't, doesn't have any theater attached to it.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Right.

Derren Brown 21:54 It's much more on, you know, kind of intuitively understandable. But-

Joe Rogan 21:58 Have you been hypnotized yourself?

Derren Brown 21:59 I'm terrible. I'm a really bad, really bad subject. I had one experience where I... Only one, when I was, um, in like a workshop thing that I was... There as a, like a, you know, a, a paying, uh, person. I wasn't giving the workshop. And, um, I was sat with a... The, the exercise was... It, it really worked for me. It may work for others. So you're split into pairs and, uh, the idea is you start to describe a scene. So you sit... And I was sat with this woman, you close your eyes, you start to describe a scene, and you go back and forth adding details, right? So she says, uh, "Okay, I'm laying on a beach." And I'm... So I just imagine that, I'm like, "Okay, I'm laying on a beach and I can, um, I can, uh, feel the warmth of the sun on my face." So I'm just kind of like imagining it and joining in with the story, and then I just remember somebody going, "Okay, guys. Time up. Time for lunch." And I, I s- I had been on a beach (laughs) , I had been on a beach, and I had completely just... I'd been there, like a dream. It was completely real. At some point, it had tipped into that. That's the only experience I've had of it. Other than that, I don't respond to it. I'm just not... I think it's just, it's just suggestibility. It's something about, uh... And we get it when, you know, we, we get it when a doctor gives us a placebo and we respond to that because this authority figure is giving us that. Or, or the way we absorb, uh, opinions of people that we admire and experts that we admire, how we just more easily take those on board unquestioningly. This is all the same thing. It's just suggestion.

Joe Rogan 23:23 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 23:23 Um, the trouble is, is it... Most of the time, it's done through the, the world of the performing hypnotist, which isn't, doesn't, isn't giving really a very clear and fair view of what's, of what's going on.

Joe Rogan 23:34 Because it's so theatrical and so-

Derren Brown 23:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:36 Yeah.

Derren Brown 23:36 Because you... Often you, you know, it, you're, you're relishing in things like, "I clicked my fingers and this guy went to sleep."

Joe Rogan 23:42 Yeah.

Derren Brown 23:42 But that's not really... You know, the... What are they doing? They're k-... Are they just, are they just kind of responding 'cause you've just asked them to and you, they know that when you click the fingers they're supposed to go to sleep? Because there's a real range of possible experiences that you... It might look like a power, but it doesn't mean it is. They might just be just complying.

Joe Rogan 24:00 Yeah.

Derren Brown 24:00 I don't... I've n- I was gonna do some of this stuff on stage without using the hypnosis to show that there's... I don't think there's anything that happens under hypnosis that can't be done without, uh... And I was, uh, having this discussion with, uh, my friend Andy, who directs and co-writes my stage shows with me, and, uh, I was saying like that thing of, you know, when you, when a hypnotist gets someone to eat an onion and says, you know... This is a classic hypnotic stunt, gives them a raw onion and says, "It's a delicious, juicy apple. Now eat it and enjoy it." And you get somebody munching into an onion and-... like, having no problem eating it. And I was like, "Well, I'm sure... That feels like if you were just gonna pull it off without hypnosis, would that just happen anyway?" And Andy said, "Oh, I bet, I bet you can just do it anyway." And he went to my fridge, took out an onion, took a big bite of it, and it was fine. 'Cause he's pro- right, so he's proving a point there, right? So he's in a different mental state than somebody going, "Go on, I dare you to take a bite of that onion," when suddenly you're like, you're preempting the, you know, the disgust and, uh, all the reasons not to do it. But the fact that he was just going, "I bet you can do it" and trying to prove a point, meant he did it and it was fine. So that, that was a different mental state, and it worked. So that wasn't hypnosis-

Joe Rogan 25:06 Right.

Derren Brown 25:07 ... but the end result still, if you did that on stage and pretended to hypnotize somebody first, it would look like you'd done something amazing. So, uh, I don't know. It, is it, it's, it's... To me, it's just, it's just that story that someone's telling themselves.

Joe Rogan 25:19 Well, didn't it, did it taste like an onion to him, or did it taste like an apple?

Derren Brown 25:22 Yeah, of course. But it just, it's just, it would've... No, no, no, no. It would've tasted like an onion. Th- there was no suggestion of it being anything else.

Joe Rogan 25:26 Right. But what about with the people that are hypnotized? Does it taste like an apple to them?

Derren Brown 25:31 Well, I don't know. It's like in- when I'm invisible-

Joe Rogan 25:33 Right.

Derren Brown 25:33 ... what are, what are they seeing?

Joe Rogan 25:34 Right.

Derren Brown 25:35 I think s- for some of them, it will, you know, taste and pain-

Joe Rogan 25:38 Right.

Derren Brown 25:38 ... and things like that, and discomfort. It's all very subjective. But the end result of doing this thing that looks like it couldn't happen-

Joe Rogan 25:44 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 25:45 ... without some magical process, that's the key. And none of these things really demand that med- even when, even when you look at people being, um, undergoing surgery through hypnosis, and being wide awake and being cut open, so you think, "Well, that must be evidence that hypnosis is some special thing, 'cause that couldn't happen otherwise." But it, of course it can. You know, the layer of skin that feels pain is actually sort of quite thin, so once you get through that, when you're moving organs around, that's not, that's not a painful process anyway. Plus, very often (laughs) they tend to use a bit, a little bit of like a local anesthetic anyway, just to numb the very top layer of skin. So again, what looks amazing very often isn't. It's a re- it's an endlessly rich and bizarre area to me, and I kind of, um, as I said, I don't really think of myself as a hypnotist. But the, the, that process, that kind of, uh, um, ability for people to get into this space where they can have that kind of experience is, um, is something I, you know, I'll, I'll always find interesting. The, the, one of the recent stage shows I did, uh, it was called Miracle. I don't know if you've seen it, but I'm faith healing in the second half. So using exactly the same idea. And I've, I've got an audience that are like me, you know, they don't believe in that, and I'm saying, "Look, I'm, you know, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in this either, but will you just kind of go with me, at least at the start? Because the results are, are really interesting." And I, um, I just started doing this, this, um, faith healing, not really knowing if it was gonna work. I thought, "Well, I can get some adrenaline going." And I, I know, could see the techniques that the, the charlatan faith healers were using, and, uh, I thought, "Well, I'll just, you know, I'll, I'll do that." And I thought, "Well, the adrenaline kills pain, so if I can get some adrenaline going, there's bound to be people that said, 'Oh, I had a pain in my back and now it's gone.'" But the actual results, admittedly with like s- small percentages of the audience, right, not everybody, but, uh, the people that were coming up and saying, "I had this problem and now it's gone." And there, there was a, a woman that had a, she'd been paralyzed down one side of her body since a kid, and she's like in her 40s now. She's in floods of tears, going, "I can move my arm." And this was-

Joe Rogan 27:51 (laughs)

Derren Brown 27:51 ... this is a skeptical audience like me that know that they're kind of playing along with something, and are nonetheless, again, small percentage, not, not, not everybody, but having-

Joe Rogan 28:00 Right.

Derren Brown 28:00 ... having these kind of experiences. Uh, it is... So that's, that's the psychological component of suffering, which is-

Joe Rogan 28:06 Yeah.

Derren Brown 28:06 ... which is, which was really eye-opening doing that show night after night after night.

Joe Rogan 28:10 Well, faith healing has gotta be a form of hypnosis, right?

Derren Brown 28:14 Yeah, it's all the s- exactly. It's the same world. It's playing... They, they both, what they're both joined by is, is the idea of suggestibility.

Joe Rogan 28:21 Yeah.

Derren Brown 28:21 And, uh, it doesn't... A- a- and sometimes those healings are sort of... I mean, if, if you take an X-ray before and afterwards, nothing's changing. But inasmuch as a lot can depend on this psychological component, it can, can really make a difference. It get- as the percentages are getting smaller, so 3,000 people in the audience, 300 people come up, 10 people come up on stage and I'm, you know, involving them in the show. But getting even smaller, there are people that, like a year later, were getting in touch and saying, "Just so you know, that thing did actually clear. Like, it hasn't come back. 'Cause I thought it would only last for 10 minutes while they're on stage, and then..."

Joe Rogan 28:55 Yeah.

Derren Brown 28:55 Which is why you don't tell people to throw their pills away and so on, right? But a, a, we're in probably like that half a percent now, which is always gonna be kinda pretty extraordinary. But, um, uh, it was like a real, a real thing. So, um-

Joe Rogan 29:08 But still, w- if you had 200 people and one of them actually gets cured from that-

Derren Brown 29:12 Mm. Mm.

Joe Rogan 29:12 ... that is immensely bizarre.

Derren Brown 29:15 It's immensely bizarre. But it's, it's bizarre and, and un- like, I've, I had this, um, bad shoulder for a long time. And I, uh, I got really used to, when I put a jacket on, kind of putting this, my left arm, putting it in, like, letting my left arm go dead and then using my right arm to pull the thing up, right? Now, I don't know how much I really need to do that anymore, or whether I'm just doing it out of habit. But if somebody got me up on stage and said, "Your left shoulder is healed. It's happened now," and kind of made me feel a bit, "Uh, now go on, try it, try it. Move your, move your arm." I think in the surprise of it, and the sheer kind of just snapping out of that habit of being like, "This is my dead arm," I probably would be very su- surprised that I could actually move it as much as I can. You know, so it's just, it's... Like, when you break it down, it's like not that amazing. But when you, when you, when you see the, the, the more kind of extreme and exciting ends of that, it's, it is mind-blowing. And then you realize how these performers, how you start to go mad yourself and think, "Well, I've got this special gift."

Joe Rogan 30:16 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 30:16 And I could pack out stadia doing like a... I did think at one point, "Why don't I do, like, a secular healing show?"

Joe Rogan 30:22 (laughs)

Derren Brown 30:22 I could say, "Well, this is, it's just, you know, it doesn't work on everybody, and it may only work for 10 minutes, but it certainly works in some meaning of the word." Anyway, I, I didn't do that, but, you know, you can start to go...... mad.

Joe Rogan 30:35 Well, the processes of the mind, I mean, the- the idea of the placebo effect is fascinating. The f- the idea that your mind has some ability that you can't tap into consciously-

Derren Brown 30:45 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:45 ... but you can, in some sort of a subconscious sense... Someone gives you something, and if you're convinced that it's doing something positive, it actually will have-

Derren Brown 30:53 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:53 ... some benefit to you-

Derren Brown 30:55 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:55 ... a real, tangible, measurable benefit.

Derren Brown 30:57 Mm.

Joe Rogan 30:57 And it doesn't seem to make sense. There's, there's no mechanism that we can trace.

Derren Brown 31:02 There's no mechanism, no. It's... What, what I found works really well is, I've done a few shows on placebo, is... For me, I find the key is, the person gets to absolve any responsibility for the change themselves. So they... I've done a couple things where... This new show I have on, uh, Netflix now called Sacrifice, a guy thinks he's got a microchip implanted in him, which is doing all the work. Uh, another show I've done is, was, uh, placebo injections they were getting, so they feel the i- the drug is doing the work. But the key is, they don't have to... They, they, they don't think, they don't think they're doing any work at all. "This thing is taking care of that for me." And that's really powerful, 'cause suddenly it's, it's, um, that thing of, "I, I don't have to do... I don't..." Th- the person thinking, "I don't have to make this happen myself, there is no onus on me, I don't have to do any- anything. This, this magic formula is somehow doing it," is hugely powerful. Um, so that, yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a... I think that's a big, a big part of it, which is why a lot of the... when we, when we, when we did the placebo program, we created this whole, like, um, fake, uh, pharmacological building. We had a building, we just, you know, k- filled it out with actors and equipment and stuff to just create this environment that was gonna be convincing before the injections were even given, and these were on people that had various, like, fears, or problems, or things that we're just gonna just investigate and see how well the placebo worked. And, uh... Yeah, it did. But that, that, that's a helpful thing, ha- feeling there's just something in you making it, making it happen.

Joe Rogan 32:30 Yeah, almost like a subconscious optimism or something like that.

Derren Brown 32:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:34 I've, I've wondered if that sort of mindset that allows you to experience a beneficial result of a placebo, if that, s- in some way, transfers over to everyday life events, if having this, uh, maybe unfounded sense of optimism or this, uh, biz- bizarrely positive outlook, or this, uh, almost undue confidence-

Derren Brown 33:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 33:04 ... actually can have some sort of a beneficial, tangible result in the real world, in terms of actual events that take place. Whether it's because of the way you interact with other human beings-

Derren Brown 33:15 Mm.

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... that they are being influenced by your positive attiti- attitude and energy, and then confidence and enthusiasm, and then therefore things go smoother-

Derren Brown 33:25 Mm.

Joe Rogan 33:25 ... or whether it's really some sort of a factor of the way you interchange with reality itself, and that your attitude actually has an effect on events.

Derren Brown 33:35 I think it gets vastly overrated. I'm a big advocate of strategic pessimism. I think the, the problem with that kind of, um... the problem with unwavering self-belief- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:47 Yes.

Derren Brown 33:47 ... is that it just doesn't, that doesn't quite map into how life works, right?

Joe Rogan 33:53 Right.

Derren Brown 33:53 I think, like, I think the Greeks had this down. So if you imagine a kind of, a graph. So you've got your, your... is it the Y-axis going up here? Of your aims and things you want to achieve. And then your X-axis is just what they used to call fortune, stuff that life-

Joe Rogan 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 34:07 ... throws back at you that you have no control over, no control at all. So, we are told a lot nowadays that you just, you know, set your goals, believe in yourself, visualize this. And as if we can crank up the sort of, the line that we're living-

Joe Rogan 34:22 Yes.

Derren Brown 34:23 ... right up in line with our goals and our, you know, aims and so on. The reality is, there's always life, like, pushing back.

Joe Rogan 34:31 Yeah.

Derren Brown 34:31 So actually what we lead is an X equals Y line. That, that's a kind of more realistic, I think, appraisal of what our life is. So, actually kind of, sort of, I think, making peace with that, which allows for all the optimism you want, but also makes peace with the fact that at some point, that might let you down, you know?

Joe Rogan 34:51 Mm.

Derren Brown 34:51 You can spend your life climbing a ladder and then realize you had it against the wrong wall, uh, to quote-

Joe Rogan 34:56 (laughs)

Derren Brown 34:56 ... uh, Joseph, Joseph Campbell, you know. You can-

Joe Rogan 34:58 Yeah.

Derren Brown 34:58 ... set goals that, they may just be the wrong goals, and, or you may achieve them, and then, like, you know, now what? I've got a, you know, a friend who, um, uh, spent a long time building up a company and selling it, and he'd been driven to do this all his life 'cause he f- like, needed to sort of achieve to feel like, you know, that he was, uh, um, kind of really worth something. That was it, he was all about achievement, and then he, he, you know, sells the company and achieves that dream. And then he didn't know what to do with his life, 'cause that, that urge was still there, and now it had nowhere to go, and actually he ended up in therapy because of it. It was such a strangely, uh, counterintuitive thing. So, I, you know, I'm the, all about changing the world for the better, but I think we have to make mental space for the fact that, um... You know, like when, when, uh, Freud created psychoanalysis, he wasn't trying to make people happy. He called it, he called it restoring, uh, restoring natural unhappiness. Like-

Joe Rogan 35:53 (laughs)

Derren Brown 35:53 ... you know, life is basically gonna be unhappy sometimes, and he was trying to get rid of unnatural unhappiness as he saw it, like a sort of neurotic unhappiness, and restore a kind of, an easy relationship to life and fortune. So to me, that's, that's the case. I'm always a bit, I'm always a bit skeptical of the kind of, uh, just unwavering positivity.

Joe Rogan 36:12 Yeah. No, I agree with you. I mean, I think that unwavering positivity is usually delusional.

Derren Brown 36:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:17 Like, but, a certain amount of positivity.

Derren Brown 36:22 A scho- so yeah, of course, a certain amount, I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:23 And a certain amount of-

Derren Brown 36:25 The, the danger is-

Joe Rogan 36:25 ... the way you're attituded.

Derren Brown 36:25 ... it's like, it's like the, it's like the faith healers, right? So the-

Joe Rogan 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 36:28 ... faith healing thing of, you go away, you don't take your pills...... and if this condition returns, which it's going to, it's your own fault because you didn't have enough faith, right?

Joe Rogan 36:37 Right.

Derren Brown 36:38 Now, that's a quite a toxic cycle of self-blame. It's exactly the same cycle that you get when you read, like The Secret, for example.

Joe Rogan 36:45 Yes.

Derren Brown 36:45 It says quite explicitly, "If these great things don't come your way, it's because your self-belief wavered for a second. You only have-"

Joe Rogan 36:52 Right.

Derren Brown 36:52 "... yourself to blame." She's very explicit about that. Um, and that, that's the problem. It's, it, it's great if you can put it in a certain context. If not, it sadly can be a recipe, I think, for anxiety and a, just a feeling of failure that you don't understand where it's come from.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Well, w- what I was trying to get at was I wonder if it's a component in a much larger picture, not that it's the one thing, like the key. Like the real problem-

Derren Brown 37:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:16 ... with The Secret is the, the idea that you're taking all these people that are s- that are already successful.

Derren Brown 37:21 Mm.

Joe Rogan 37:21 They, they've achieved a certain result, and then you're asking them, "How did you achieve that result?" "Well, I thought positive, and I just really-"

Derren Brown 37:27 Mm.

Joe Rogan 37:27 "... put my mind to it, and I dreamt on it." They all have this in common.

Derren Brown 37:31 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:31 Well, you know, who also thought positive? A bunch of losers.

Derren Brown 37:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:34 You know, they all, they all, they tried and, you know, they got hit in the head by asteroids or car accidents-

Derren Brown 37:39 Mm.

Joe Rogan 37:39 ... or the w- the world turned bad on them. I mean, that, that actually can happen too.

Derren Brown 37:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:43 So it's just, you're using... You have a, a biased focus group, like-

Derren Brown 37:47 Exactly, you have a bi-... Yes, exactly. It's exactly.

Joe Rogan 37:49 Yeah.

Derren Brown 37:49 And, and the, the idea of setting a goal, fixating on it, and ignoring all the haters, and ignoring-

Joe Rogan 37:54 Mm.

Derren Brown 37:54 ... all the people that will bring you down is a perfect recipe for failure-

Joe Rogan 37:58 (laughs)

Derren Brown 37:58 ... as much as, as it's a common anecdotal, uh, story of success.

Joe Rogan 38:02 Well, the problem with that is if you just focus on the one... The, the, the thing about human beings, I think, is that we really do need other people's input and interaction. The idea that you're gonna work in a vacuum and create this great masterpiece-

Derren Brown 38:14 Mm.

Joe Rogan 38:14 ... without any bo- interaction with other human beings, that's n- that's doesn't really, it doesn't really work like that.

Derren Brown 38:19 It doesn't, because life is active and messy-

Joe Rogan 38:21 Yes.

Derren Brown 38:21 ... and ambiguous and ambivalent, and th- w- I think the trouble is we get hung up on nouns like happiness or meaning, uh, or even the self, right? 'Cause I think, I think actually these things are verbs. They're... Maybe we selve as a verb. You know, maybe it's something that happens dynamically in the relationships that we're in. Maybe our self is something that kind of extends out into the world and is, you know, kind of fluid in that way. And happiness, maybe it's, maybe that's an activity. Meaning is maybe an activity. But we've, w- we've reduced these things to nouns like they're really neat, easy, isolated things, and, uh, they're really not. So, like, in the, in the, a lot of the, the TV shows that I do, I'm putting people through, like, a transformative process and they, they're reacting to kind of really extreme situations. And I always have people saying, "Oh, I wouldn't do that."

Narrator 39:09 (laughs)

Derren Brown 39:10 Or they think it's all fake 'cause, "I-I would never do that." But they're viewing themselves as this isolated, as just this sort of individual kind of separated from everything else, watching that and thinking how they'd behave. What they're not doing is thinking, "And if I were in that situation-"

Joe Rogan 39:23 Mm.

Derren Brown 39:23 "... with the same pressures-"

Joe Rogan 39:25 Yes.

Derren Brown 39:25 "... what?" And then that's, that's amazing that that does change us, that we're not these... You know, for two, three hundred years, we've had this idea that we are these, um, kind of, uh... It all goes back to, like, not being influenced by kings and priests, like, it was... This is John Locke. It's like the, the beginnings of that, that idea that, "No, no, we, we are, we should not, we should have this kind of personal authority," and it's drifted into, uh, through Kant, I think. It's drifted into a really unrealistic and unfair

Derren Brown 39:55 sense of how isolated we are, and we're not. We're clearly social, uh, creatures. I did a, there's a show on Netflix called The Push, uh, which I did, which was to see whether, if you create this environment, um, of social compliance, so it's a big party, right? There's one guy in it who doesn't know th- this is being filmed, that he's part of a TV show. Everybody else is an actor. And the plot was to see, could you get him to murder somebody?

Joe Rogan 40:19 Pshew.

Derren Brown 40:19 To push someone off the roof to their death, as far as he's concerned. Obviously, it doesn't... No one really dies, right?

Joe Rogan 40:24 Right.

Derren Brown 40:25 And it just starts with... He kind of gets roped into helping out at this event, and it's a big high-stakes event. Everyone's in, um, you know, tuxedos, but he didn't get the memo for the dress code, so he already comes in feeling a bit like, "Oh, fuck." And then he gets, he gets roped into helping out, and, like, the first thing he's asked to do is to label, um, meat-filled sausage roll snacks as vegetarian, right? Because they, the vegetarian ones haven't been delivered. So it's just like a little kind of foot in the door thing, and then it just builds and it builds, and, uh, it gets to this point when he's on a roof, having been through this really, like, d- dark, extraordinary, and sort of hilarious and massively anxiety-inducing journey. It's a lot of emotions you go through when you watch it. Um, and then faced with this massive pressure to, to, to kill this guy, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna spoil the ending 'cause it's a stonker, but, um, this is like... It's, that's what it's all about, you know, how your, uh, how your sense of... It's like the story you tell yourself about who you are, it just isn't, isn't, isn't real. Can I talk about The News Show? Can I talk about ne- uh, the, um, Sacrifice? 'Cause that's like, it's as-

Joe Rogan 41:28 You talk about anything you want, but can I ask you one question about this?

Derren Brown 41:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:31 What ki-... I mean, do you feel a certain sense of moral confusion when you're trying to talk someone into potentially... And you realize that if this wasn't a show-

Derren Brown 41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:46 ... if, if a similar or ma- maybe even more powerful pressures were in play-

Derren Brown 41:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:51 ... and this guy was suggestible and he found himself in very unusual circumstances where it seemed like a good idea to kill this person-

Derren Brown 41:58 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:59 ... like, you're, you're introducing this thought and this, this scenario into a person's mind that perhaps could go cradle to the grave and never have that.

Derren Brown 42:09 It's, it's kind of the opposite, but it actually, uh, it's just hard to talk about that without really giving away the ending, but the... What it does is m- actually mentally rehearse somebody. What, what this guy took away from it is the knowledge that-... if he was ever in a situation again where there was anything like that nature of compliance, that he now has the tools to just, like, stand up to it, because you, you need that kind of-

Joe Rogan 42:33 Right. I see.

Derren Brown 42:33 ... emotional rehearsal. And likewise, for viewers, hopefully, watching it too.

Joe Rogan 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 42:37 That's kind of the idea. You're all- we're all emotionally rehearsing it with him. Um, and unless you've been trained in stuff and you know it like that, you- you- you need, like, a- an emotional experience of it to know-

Joe Rogan 42:47 Right.

Derren Brown 42:47 ... when that thing happens, to just have the resources to stand up, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:49 To understand that you can be manipulated.

Derren Brown 42:50 So these are very... Although it does- I realize it doesn't sound like it, and that show, The Push is... I mean, it's kind of like the darkest of all the shows, but they are- they are there for a- like a good reason. There's like a- a- there's a reason for doing it. Everybody that comes away is always like, you know, "That's- that's- that is- that was a great thing to do. Best thing I've ever done." You know, these kind... Even though the journeys themselves look- do look very dark.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Well, he sounds like- the guy who had a positive outlook on it sounds like a person who... s- can learn from their mistakes.

Derren Brown 43:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:19 And- but there's some people that when confronted with some new situation, like, "Wow, I really was gonna push that guy off the roof," like, "This is me." Like, "I didn't think that was me."

Derren Brown 43:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:30 "Now I know. Now I know that I'm capable of doing that. If I get manipulated to the point, like, wow." And then, they have a lot of, like, real confusion and- and- and perhaps a lack of faith in themselves and their ability to make decisions.

Derren Brown 43:43 I mean, that's- that's kind of- that's kind of my job to make sure that the- the- the framing and the-

Joe Rogan 43:47 That they don't...

Derren Brown 43:47 Yeah, that's kind of... You know.

Joe Rogan 43:48 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 43:48 I mean, there- I- I get these are ethical questions that are worth asking. My- ultimately, my concern with these... I- I've done a lot of these shows where people are put through these dark journeys to reach a valuable point, more- more valuable than perhaps the end of The Push, which is quite dark. But, um, the- my- my only real concern is their experience. So the guy that has just done this new show, for example, I said to him before I came out and started talking about the show, I said, "What do you- what do you want me to say about your experience?" And he said, "Look, aside from having my kids, that is the best thing I've ever done."

Joe Rogan 44:18 (laughs)

Derren Brown 44:18 But I know other people watching the show will say, "How can he know? How can you justify that? You're manipulating somebody, and- and why did he not just want to kill you at the end of it?" And- and-

Joe Rogan 44:27 (laughs)

Derren Brown 44:27 But that- the reality is, it's just this one guy's experience that I care about, and that's something that I can manage and create and make sure that he's left in the right way. And also, these are people I just, like, will remain friends with for the rest of my life, so it's not like, "Great, you've done the TV show. Thank you. Goodbye." This is-

Joe Rogan 44:42 Right.

Derren Brown 44:42 There's a- a genuine, um...

Joe Rogan 44:45 Intimate bond.

Derren Brown 44:46 Yeah. Well, we all- like, we all end up falling in love a bit, like me and the production team, falling in love with these people because you're- you're putting them through... These are like 10-month projects.

Joe Rogan 44:54 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 44:54 Half the- it was a little different with, um, Sacrifice because he, um, he thought he was taking part in one show, which was a documentary, when actually, there was this whole other thing going on.

Joe Rogan 45:02 (laughs)

Derren Brown 45:02 But a lot of the time, they have no idea.

Joe Rogan 45:04 How long was Push for? Like what-

Derren Brown 45:05 Push was- well, that was only like a- that was a- it was only like one evening of actual filming.

Joe Rogan 45:11 Wow.

Derren Brown 45:11 But the- because it was just one, like, real-time event.

Joe Rogan 45:13 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 45:14 Um, but the preparation for it, you know, goes back a bit. I did a- the biggest one was- I did a show called Apocalypse, which isn't on Netflix. I- I mean, if- if you go down the rabbit hole, it'll be somewhere on, uh, YouTube, where we ended the world for somebody. So we- we took control of his, uh, news feed, uh, his TV. We filmed, like, special editions of TV shows-

Joe Rogan 45:35 (laughs)

Derren Brown 45:35 ... like news shows that he'd watch, fed them into his TV.

Joe Rogan 45:37 Oh, no.

Derren Brown 45:38 And drip-by-drip, created the idea the world was gonna end, there was gonna be this meteor strike. Even like he'd be out in a cafe and there'd be radio in the cafe 'cause he'd know he'd be in that cafe, there's a radio playing with DJs that he knows that are talking about this thing that is supposed to happen.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Oh, my gosh. (laughs)

Derren Brown 45:51 And then, we stage it. We stage this pyrotechnic end of the world thing in this kind of, uh, sort of controlled enough environment we could get him into where we could stage that convincingly. And then, he wakes up in the second sort of epis- it's a two-episode thing, in this post-apocalyptic, seemingly like weeks later, in a hospital. Like everyone's gone, the place is abandoned, um, uh, some infection has spread, so there is like this zombie plot.

Joe Rogan 46:18 (laughs)

Derren Brown 46:18 And he then lives through the plot of The Wizard of Oz to find his way back home, and the point of it was this Stoic idea of valuing what you have because this was somebody who, by all reports was, you know, lazy, selfish, took advantage of his parents who he was living with, never had a proper job. He was just kind of like needed to value what he had. So the Stoics would say, you know, just rehearse taking everything away, so when you return to the stuff you have, you value that rather than just always desiring more. So that was that idea kind of writ large, just take everything away, end of the world. But again, um, like he was transformed by it, really changed his life.

Joe Rogan 46:50 You're still in touch with this person?

Derren Brown 46:51 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:52 And so, uh, w- uh, is this- this is a permanent shift?

Derren Brown 46:55 Permanent shift. He ended up being a teacher in a special needs school that he's kind of worked his way up through and is now like- you know, he's getting married and it's- yeah, it's- it's lovely.

Joe Rogan 47:03 That's crazy.

Derren Brown 47:05 Not that I can take credit for all of that, but you know, it was definitely a- a big part of that-

Joe Rogan 47:08 Well, near death experiences are often incredibly beneficial to people.

Derren Brown 47:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:11 They- they make big giant shifts in their attitude and their- their perception of the world, and they realize that time really is finite and that it could have been taken away from them, and they feel like they have a new lease on life. I mean, you really can become a totally different person after something like that.

Derren Brown 47:24 I think so. Well, that's- that also- also what's happened with this guy, Phil. So in the- in the- in this new show, which is also the first like brand new thing I've done for- for Netflix, there's a couple of other shows, but they-

Joe Rogan 47:34 And what is it called?

Derren Brown 47:35 It's called Sacrifice.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Sacrifice.

Derren Brown 47:37 So the plot is... I take this guy, Phil, who is an- an American guy, I think his father's- uh, his father's British, got a few sort of British links, but he's an American guy living in, um, Florida, Cocoa Beach, Florida. Big, uh, right-wing guy, strong views against immigration, um. And I, using these covert psychological techniques, try and get him to the point where he will willingly lay down his life and take a bullet for an illegal Mexican immigrant, or at least someone he believes is, you know, it's an actor-

Joe Rogan 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Derren Brown 48:10 ... because it's- the whole thing is-

Joe Rogan 48:11 Yeah.

Derren Brown 48:11 The whole thing with actors. So, um, so he went through this journey, which is not a- it's not a political story at all. I mean, obviously, it kind of- it resonates, but it was ultimately a story about compassion and- and, uh, and humanity and this ultimately very human moment that he- that he found himself in. Um-And, you know, the guy's, like... Uh, it made a huge difference to him. You know, it's- it's, uh... So this is... I- I don't... I kind of don't wanna give away exactly how it turns out.

Joe Rogan 48:40 How long did the process take?

Derren Brown 48:41 It was about 10 months.

Joe Rogan 48:42 10 months.

Derren Brown 48:42 For him, for him, it was like a maybe three, four months. It was like the beginning block of this year. But there's like two levels to making these shows. You've gotta write the ide- you know, the, the... sort of the plot of the show and find that-

Joe Rogan 48:53 Yeah.

Derren Brown 48:53 ... and make that happen for him. But you've also gotta create this... The whole thing has... It's like this kind of Truman Show. It all ha-... You're creating a fiction for somebody that has to be completely convincing. That's a whole other level of, of kind of work. Plus, you know, you gotta make sure this guy's robust enough to go through something like that.

Joe Rogan 49:09 (laughs)

Derren Brown 49:09 So there's a whole vetting procedure that has to happen without him realizing what it's all about.

Joe Rogan 49:13 Yeah. That's a great way of putting it, robust enough-

Derren Brown 49:14 Robust enough.

Joe Rogan 49:15 ... psychologically, right?

Derren Brown 49:16 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:17 That is a crazy amount of preparation and production work.

Derren Brown 49:21 It's hu-... Yeah. It's, it's, it's huge. In the apocalypse show, there was like one moment when we had to just make this guy's... 'Cause there was the idea there was electrical interference with the meteors. Just had to make his TV pop off in his room, like just sort of, you know, cut out. And to do that, there were two guys out in his garden shed, um, waiting, who had to be there all day 'cause they couldn't come in and out the garden 'cause he might see them, pulling a cable at this moment to make the TV go. But then they couldn't leave because he might see them, so they had to spend the night in this garden shed, right?

Joe Rogan 49:48 (laughs)

Derren Brown 49:48 And this is like after three months of not having a day off as well. So that's like a nothing moment that no one will ever remember from the show, but it... yeah, a huge amount of, um, huge amount of work.

Joe Rogan 49:57 (laughs)

Derren Brown 49:57 I always get people saying, "Oh, it's all fake. You haven't really done it." And I think it's just that (laughs) ... It's that no one believes you'd actually go to all that trouble.

Joe Rogan 50:03 Wow. For the paranoid... Like, if you, if you did that to a, a, a naturally paranoid person or a person with a, a touch of schizophrenia, oh my God.

Derren Brown 50:11 Which is why they have to be vetted-

Joe Rogan 50:13 Oh, yeah.

Derren Brown 50:13 ... very carefully first, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:14 Very carefully.

Derren Brown 50:14 And at any point during the process, of course, we can, like, stop it.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Derren Brown 50:17 I can, you know... I can-

Joe Rogan 50:18 But that would suck, wouldn't it?

Derren Brown 50:20 That would suck, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:21 (laughs)

Derren Brown 50:21 That would be a shame.

Joe Rogan 50:21 10 months of preparation-

Derren Brown 50:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:23 ... and you see a guy starting to question reality and look at clouds in an odd way.

Derren Brown 50:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:27 And next thing you know, "Oh boy, I think, I think he's slipping away." (laughs) Yeah.

Derren Brown 50:31 Yes. So, so yeah, that's never happened. It's always been, it's always been hugely, uh... That is the-

Joe Rogan 50:35 That is an amazing process though. I mean, it's a, it's... That's, uh, amazing how much prep work is involved in something like that.

Derren Brown 50:42 It's all-

Joe Rogan 50:42 To set up the radio, uh, where they walk into a place-

Derren Brown 50:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:46 ... they have different news broadcasts and-

Derren Brown 50:47 But that's... I mean, that is, that's fun. The ter-

Joe Rogan 50:49 (laughs)

Derren Brown 50:49 Most terrifying bit was the, was the... for him was the kind of, um, end of the world moment, 'cause we had this fa- fake radio broadcast from, from the BBC. And it was just so convincing. It was just-

Joe Rogan 50:58 Wow.

Derren Brown 50:59 Made your blood go cold.

Joe Rogan 51:00 War of Worlds type stuff.

Derren Brown 51:01 But in this, like in this thing, in, uh, in Sacrifice, there was a, like a amazing pivotal moment in it when he, um... We do this staring, um, test, which was developed by a New York psychology professor. And the idea is you, you just... You might have come across it. You just stare silently into someone's eyes for four minutes. And I... It's j- it's the most amazing thing, 'cause obviously the first thing is you get this sort of awkwardness and this kind of, you know, giggling. And, and then that tends to stop, and then you're just facing a human being. And like you've- you've sort of somehow broken through all the kind of crap, and then you just (laughs) see like a person that's like living and struggling like you are, and someone with a private life that like... That's a big thing for me. Like, you know, we, we, we go through life seeing people gener- generally at their best. Like, you know, generally people will present their best version of themselves to you. If you have a couple over for dinner, you'll tend to see that couple at their best. So you have this skewed idea of how together other people are, how impressive other people are, how great other couples are compared to how you are with your partner. And y- we miss that, like, th- 'cause we know for us, we have this big, clumsy, embarrassing, lumbering giant of a, of a private life that's just following us around. And it's particularly now, you know, Instagram and all that. People are branding themselves so effectively.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Yes.

Derren Brown 52:22 I mean, it's like... It's so unfair in terms of the, the difference between how you perceive yourself and how you perceive everybody else. Um, so again, you know, those, the, the, the stories that we're kind of, uh, living out. So they, they... You know, it takes like four minutes of this bizarre staring thing to kind of reach a moment of just suddenly I think hitting a point of just seeing another human being and everything that comes with that. And it was a big moment for this guy, Phil, going through it. It was a really... We tried a couple of things with him that you see in the show don't, don't work out quite well, and then, um, and then this, uh, really emo- (laughs) emotional moment when he, he just has this, you know, big change. Yeah. It's, uh... It was a... And I think also just being able to do a TV show that really, like, changes somebody qui- quite aside from how popular the show is or how well it works as a show or who watches it, whatever, just to actually feel like, you know, at some point in my life (laughs) I've just like done a positive thing just for one person with TV, which is like, you know, generally kind of a pretty, um, moronic kind of medium. So to be able to just do something meaningful is, you know, is, is good.

Joe Rogan 53:31 Well, listen, it sounds amazing. It doesn't just sound good. It sounds like quite a work of art-

Derren Brown 53:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:36 ... that you've managed to figure out a way to coordinate all these moving parts-

Derren Brown 53:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:42 ... and trick someone into accepting a bunch of different versions of reality that you're presenting-

Derren Brown 53:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:49 ... and get these results.

Derren Brown 53:50 It's a... Well, I... It's... I've got a big production crew that work... You know, it's not all me. I've gotta write the thing and, you know-

Joe Rogan 53:54 Yeah.

Derren Brown 53:54 ... design it and so on, but, but the, um, the... We kind of worked on it over the years. We had sma- like little things that involved, uh, involved those kind of plots. Like, there was... The first show I did like that was, um, uh, taking a guy who... About... Uh, as with Phil in Sacrifice, actually, it's bringing out someone's hero, right? That's really what it's about. That's kind of the story. You're seeing somebody go through a big change, but bringing out the hero. And the, um, the first show we did like that involved this guy who at the end of this... his own like journey he'd been through, finds himself on an airplane. He's terrified of flying, but he, you know, we created this situation where he had to be on a flight, and he didn't know it was anything to do with us. Everyone's an actor in the plane.

Joe Rogan 54:36 (laughs)

Derren Brown 54:37 We've got hidden cameras throughout the plane. Then there's this med-

Joe Rogan 54:40 Oh.

Derren Brown 54:40 There is a medical emergency.

Joe Rogan 54:41 (laughs)

Derren Brown 54:42 ... and will somebody land the plane? Someone needs to land the plane.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Oh, my God.

Derren Brown 54:44 It's like would he, would he step up and do it?

Joe Rogan 54:47 Oh, you made him land the plane? (laughs)

Derren Brown 54:49 Yeah. It's called Hero at 30,000 Feet. Um-

Joe Rogan 54:51 Oh, Jesus.

Derren Brown 54:53 I just... Just to talk through the ending because, like, it's not a, a... Like, it's kind of-

Joe Rogan 54:56 Ugh.

Derren Brown 54:56 ... a spoiler, but it doesn't matter. He, he, like, he does it, right? He rises up, has this moment. He goes to the cockpit. Now, he is highly suggestible, right? I've used him because he's suggestible, so I know that I can put him to sleep, inverted commas, by clicking my fingers, right? He's conditioned to that.

Joe Rogan 55:10 Yeah.

Derren Brown 55:11 So I step out before he enters the cockpit, click my fingers. He sort of zonks out and he's got very conditioned-

Joe Rogan 55:16 (laughs)

Derren Brown 55:16 ... to this throughout the process. Stick him in a wheelchair, we land the plane. He wakes up in a... About to walk into one of those f- convincing simulators, you know, that they use for, uh, for pilot training. Uh, and it's kind of a night flight, so that was... We found out that was the most convincing thing was to have it when it's dark. So he now goes in believing he's in the real cockpit of a real plane 30 feet- 30,000 feet up in the air. He's got the guy on ground control who is, you know, in on it, obviously, as everybody is, talking him down, getting him to land the plane, and he just... It's just amazing. This guy (laughs) , this guy as... In his mind, you know, as he's l- landing this plane, saving the lives of 300 people, and then he steps out and then the thing is revealed to him, and it's so emotional. And then there's a... You know the Game, isn't... The Michael Douglas film, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:02 Yes.

Derren Brown 56:02 There's that... So there's wh-... There's always been a point of reference for me. So he comes out, there's, like, a big party of everyone that's been on his journey, all these people, these actors that have been, you know, taking-

Joe Rogan 56:11 (laughs)

Derren Brown 56:11 ... him in this direction. Yeah. So it was amazing. So I've, I've, I've over the years kind of worked with these kind of, uh, these plots, these kind of immersive Truman Show style, uh, plots, while at the same time doing stage shows. I d- you know, I do a live show every year as well, which is kind of a bit more like an old-fashioned sort of magic, mind-reading kind of, kind of show. Um, but, uh, yeah, they are, they are these, you know, these extraordinary journeys. But I just do, like, maybe one a year because they take... You know, they just take so much work.

Joe Rogan 56:40 It seems like not only does it take too much time, but it also re-... You rely so heavily on the improvisational abilities of all these other people.

Derren Brown 56:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:47 Their ability to adjust and act normal.

Derren Brown 56:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:49 And, and to be convincing-

Derren Brown 56:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:51 ... and to follow the plot, not deviate at all. I mean-

Derren Brown 56:54 And the LA actors we used for Sacrifice were so good. It's just, like, in... It's just, like, in your blood over here. You know?

Joe Rogan 57:00 (laughs)

Derren Brown 57:00 They're ever so, so good. Uh-

Joe Rogan 57:03 Wow.

Derren Brown 57:03 ... and they were, like, big... You know, at the end, they're, like, big sort of aggressive racist biker characters that we used.

Joe Rogan 57:07 (laughs)

Derren Brown 57:08 They're just terrifying. And, uh, yeah, which is then that hilarious thing of, like, they are... 'Cause they were bikers as well, so they are big, like, hairy, intimidating people, but at the same time, they wanna know about the motivation and whether they did all right in this scene (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 57:19 Right, right.

Derren Brown 57:19 ... which is kind of a-

Joe Rogan 57:20 They're artists.

Derren Brown 57:21 ... kind of a fun, odd... Yeah, odd combination.

Joe Rogan 57:23 Wow.

Derren Brown 57:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:24 What a fantastic idea for a show and so uniquely original. I mean, it's, uh, the, the... I- it just seems like there's so much work involved in something like this. You must obsess over that.

Derren Brown 57:38 I... The process is I c- come up with an idea, so, like, let's... Which is normally... We normally sit... I sit with a couple of guys that I write the shows with. We normally drive ourselves mad thinking of ideas, and then one of us, normally me, goes, "Oh, can't we just... Let's just end the world, and it's zombies," or, "Let's, uh, see if someone... We can get someone to push someone off a building." Or with this one, because I'd done The Push, I wanted to kind of do the opposite of it, something that'd be saving a life, a much more redemptive story than, than The Push. Um, so that idea is the first thing, and I try and combine a really strong dramatic hook with a really g-... Like, a good reason for doing it. Otherwise, you're just making, like, a controversial, shocking thing for the sake of it-

Joe Rogan 58:19 Right, right.

Derren Brown 58:19 ... which is, you know, of no interest. So, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:21 Well, that's a beautiful perspective too, that you actually wanna benefit someone through this-

Derren Brown 58:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:27 ... crazy prank you're playing on them.

Derren Brown 58:28 Yeah. Yeah, otherwise, exactly. It would just be a crazy, horrible prank.

Joe Rogan 58:31 Yeah.

Derren Brown 58:31 And there's... There is... Like, part of the enjoyment of the show, I guess, is a little bit of that. It's kind of fun-

Joe Rogan 58:36 Sure.

Derren Brown 58:36 ... and, you know, a little bit... But that's, that's, uh... The, the... You know, the, the shows, I think they have a lot of heart and a lot of, um, thought, and they're layered th-

Joe Rogan 58:46 What's your intent? Your intent to be beneficial to these people-

Derren Brown 58:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:50 ... is what transforms it. You have empathy for these folks.

Derren Brown 58:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:52 And you, you, you truly care. That, that alone makes everything else better. It makes the whole... Like, if the whole thing is just like, "I'm smarter than these dummies, and I'm just gonna trick them."

Derren Brown 59:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:03 I mean, we've had that show before-

Derren Brown 59:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:05 ... many, many times, and make people feel terrible, and it's cringe-inducing when you watch it, and you can't look away.

Derren Brown 59:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:11 But that you're doing this and the end result is actually it benefits their perspective-

Derren Brown 59:18 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:18 ... and actually might change their life for the better-

Derren Brown 59:20 Well, that's-

Joe Rogan 59:20 ... that's extraordinary. That's amazing.

Derren Brown 59:22 That's... Thank you. Well, that's, that's, that's the hope. Um, the way that I do it, the way that I change him is through conditioning. So I, um... This is a technique I've used a lot over the years of you kind of take the emotional state you want the person to have at the end, uh, break it down into components, and then attach each one of those to a, to a trigger. So this guy, Phil, uh, in Sacrifice, he's using, um, like, an app which he thinks is sort of talking to this, um... Uh, the microchip he has in him because he thinks he's... He thinks we've imp-... A- and we really do, like, cut him open and-

Joe Rogan 59:55 Really?

Derren Brown 59:55 ... seemingly. Yeah. We just don't... You know, it's a placebo. We don't really put it in. But he now thinks he's-

Joe Rogan 59:59 But you actually do cut him?

Derren Brown 1:00:00 Yeah, we cut him and, yeah, yeah-

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Stitch him back up again and the whole-

Derren Brown 1:00:02 We stitch him back up, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 Wow.

Derren Brown 1:00:03 Um, I don't think he needs... No, I don't think he needs stitches for it. It's a kinda, kind of a small cut, but it's, uh, scalpel going in, horrible. Um, so he thinks he's using this app which is kind of, um, helping motivate him, but what it's doing, it's atta-... It's giving him this sound, like this little jingle, that gets attached to all those feelings of motivation. So that means that when he finds himself in this kind of final scene where he has this choice to step in and save a life, that we can have the same jingle on the radio that plays and... You know, it's like that thing of you hear a song when you're breaking up with someone and it's a horrible period of your life, and then five years later you hear the same song, and it just-

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Yeah.

Derren Brown 1:00:40 ... brings it all back.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Yeah.

Derren Brown 1:00:41 You know? It's that, that process.... um, or obviously, like, you know, advertising is the big example of that.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Isn't that the premise behind something like The Manchurian Candidate that there's some way they can (snaps fingers) snap and then you go back to this state of mind where you followed

Derren Brown 1:00:53 Yeah. Well, that... Yeah. That's more kind of, I guess, overtly hypnotic.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 ... them, I think.

Derren Brown 1:00:55 That's like a post-hypnotic suggestion. This isn't. This is more gentle because he needed to make the decision himself.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 Right.

Derren Brown 1:01:00 The idea was not that he'd be some kind of hypnotized robot, um, if that would even work anyway.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 And-

Derren Brown 1:01:05 You know, this is, this is, this is about a creating... A trigger f- There's feelings of empathy are important. A lot of the show is about empathy, and a lot of the show is about the desire to act. And then, he's, he finds himself in this situation which is extremely... He has no idea at this point it's anything to do with... Like, the filming's finished. That all happened in England as far as he's concerned. He's gone back home, had time to forget all about it, and then ends up stranded in this situation where it all happens. Um, and then I trigger these things off, so I'm giving him this kind of psychological nudge and then it's, you know, what, what will happen? Will he, will he, will he rise up and take it? Like, like the guy landing the plane is kind of like, what, what, what... Ultimately, you know, it's that guy's decision. And it's also, I think... It's, it's a story about stepping out of the kind of the, you know, the, the... I guess the show resonates politically, but it's not a political show. The, the, there's like... There are political narratives we get constrained by and we forget that actually it's the dialogue between the sides that, you know, where humanity emerges and where we find truth. So this is also I guess a story about a guy coming out of his particular sociopolitical narrative and just finding something that ultimately is just a, a, a human, you know, a human quality, kindness, compassion. And these are not political qualities, although they end up getting politicized, but, you know, they're not. They're not.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 I think that a lot of people are gonna watch this and want that to happen to them. Like, "I need some sort of a transformative prank played on me to, to..."

Derren Brown 1:02:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 'Cause I think people do... I mean, we, we do get caught in ruts, right? We do get stuck on momentum. We g- we get stuck following the same patterns over and over again. It's very difficult to change your life.

Derren Brown 1:02:45 This is... This is it. This is it. Well, b- the thing that makes us so great at evolving our ability to adapt is the same thing that just... It, um, ties us down, so like all through life. So from an early age, like, we emerge in this world and we're very quickly given messages about what our relationship with that sh- to that world is. "This is what people are like. This is what they'll want from you. You are not powerful. The world is powerful." You know? And that, that is, it's gonna be skewed. Jung said that, you know, the... I love this, that the greatest burden a child has to bear is the unlived life of its parents. Such a great thing.

Joe Rogan 1:03:18 Mm.

Derren Brown 1:03:18 So your starting point is this skewed story.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yes.

Derren Brown 1:03:21 And then you just... You go through life looking for things that just fit and recreate tho- those patterns because they feel so comfortable. You know, your... What do you learn about love from your parents, you start to bring to your adult relationships and project all that stuff on, uh, on your partner. If you think about it, you know, the, the... If you've had a nice loving upbringing, you are getting a ridiculously skewed version of what love means. Like, we know as adults how difficult it is raising kids, but we never saw that as kids. We never saw our parents going off and screaming at each other in the next room once we'd gone to bed. We just have this sort of impossibly, uh... Hopefully, you know, if we've had a, had a happy one, we get this impossible, um, template of what love is and should be, and then we just dump that on our poor adult partners, which nobody can live up to. So our ability to adapt, to internalize stories about who we are and then, like, mistake that for reality, is just, uh, is just what makes living just difficult and complex. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Also, the narratives that come through fiction, narratives from films and books and even songs.

Derren Brown 1:04:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 The, the, the versions of romance and-

Derren Brown 1:04:35 Yes, particularly with Roma-

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 ... interaction.

Derren Brown 1:04:36 Particularly with that.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Yeah.

Derren Brown 1:04:37 Yeah. I, I love the idea that, um... Don't know if you know Alain de Botton is a, um, British philosopher and writer, and he's, he said, you know, if you, if you go to bed twice a week with your partner thinking, "Oh, what the fuck am I doing with this person?" That's normal. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 (laughs)

Derren Brown 1:04:52 That's a normal thing. Like, to me, that's more useful information than, you know, how to make your relationship perfect. Like, these things aren't perfect. And again, living, living with the understanding that, you know, life is difficult and complicated.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 But what about three times a week?

Derren Brown 1:05:06 Three times a week (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 (laughs)

Derren Brown 1:05:07 I think that's probably pretty normal as well. He's probably being, he's probably being generous.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 What's the number where you should start to reconsider?

Derren Brown 1:05:12 I don't know. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Is it five? Two good nights. We have two good nights, though.

Derren Brown 1:05:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Five nights are hell, but two of them, yeah, she's the best.

Derren Brown 1:05:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Yeah. What do you do? What do you do? Yeah. I think the, um, the narratives that we get from fiction are d- they're very confusing to people, you know, particularly people that are very romantic.

Derren Brown 1:05:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 They have these ideas that, you know, their life is going to be like one of their favorite films and that-

Derren Brown 1:05:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 ... that's what they're looking for. They're holding out, you know. They're holding out for when the music plays and the close-up is there and-

Derren Brown 1:05:41 And those stories stop. Going back to this guy, Alain de Botton, he wrote a lovely book on this. Those fil- The trouble with those films and those stories, they stop when the people fall in love and get together.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 Yeah.

Derren Brown 1:05:50 That's wh- That's when it start. That's