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Joe Rogan Experience #1213 - Dr. Andrew Weil

Dr. Andrew Weil is a physician, author, spokesperson, and broadly described "guru" of the alternative medical brands: holistic health and integrative medicine. https://matcha.com/pages/joerogan

Joe RoganhostDr. Andrew Weilguest
Dec 12, 20181h 52mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:03 – 1:02

    Matcha quality, freshness, and why most U.S. matcha tastes bad

    1. JR

      Four, three, two... All the way from Tucson, Arizona, (claps) Dr. Weil. How are you, sir?

    2. AW

      I am good.

    3. JR

      Thanks for doing this, man. I appreciate it.

    4. AW

      Pleasure.

    5. JR

      You come highly recommended by many human beings that I know.

    6. AW

      Well, I'm glad to hear it.

    7. JR

      How do you, uh, how do you get such a fine reputation?

    8. AW

      Well, I've been doing the same things for a long time, just putting one foot ahead of the other and, uh, saying what I know to be true.

    9. JR

      And, uh, and pushing matcha.

    10. AW

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      Everybody likes matcha. Who doesn't like matcha tea?

    12. AW

      Well-

    13. JR

      This is your stuff?

    14. AW

      Yeah, but you know, a lot of people don't... have only tasted really bad matcha because-

    15. JR

      Oh, okay, enlighten me. What's the-

    16. AW

      Uh-

    17. JR

      What's the deal?

    18. AW

      You know, it's powdered tea, and it's very, very finely powdered, and it's very labor-intensive to prepare. And, uh, it's got such a huge surface area that it oxidizes very quickly. So if it's not properly packed and stored, it loses its brilliant green color, it turns yellow-green or gray-green, it gets bitter, and loses its taste. And I gotta say, most of the matcha that I see served (laughs) in this country is of that sort, and many-

    19. JR

      Oh.

    20. AW

      ... people have never had the good stuff.

  2. 1:02 – 2:37

    Matcha’s effects: caffeine + L-theanine and “relaxed alertness”

    1. JR

      Well, what's the benefits of matcha? I know there's cognitive benefits.

    2. AW

      First of all, it's, it's beautiful. I mean, I've never seen a green color like that.

    3. JR

      Mm.

    4. AW

      It's just amazing. And the flavor's amazing, but it's the only preparation of tea in which the whole leaf is consumed. Uh, and-

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. AW

      ... and it's grown under special conditions. The leaves are shaded, uh, deep shade for the last three weeks before harvest. So the... in response to that, the leaves produce more chlorophyll, more antioxidants, more of the good stuff. So it's got, uh, you know, much more of the things you want.

    7. JR

      And this has like a pop top, like Pringles.

    8. AW

      (laughs) Yeah.

    9. JR

      Right? Is that... So the matcha's in there?

    10. AW

      It's gotta stay fresh, and after you open it-

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. AW

      ... you wanna keep it in the freezer and, and-

    13. JR

      Oh, okay.

    14. AW

      Yep.

    15. JR

      Freezer.

    16. AW

      You got it. Freezer. And you should sift it so it doesn't form lumps, and then you whisk it with that traditional bamboo whisk, or you buy a little electric whisker-

    17. JR

      Ah.

    18. AW

      ... and you can whisk it in hot water or cold water, and it's very yummy.

    19. JR

      And w- what, what does it do for you? Like, what's the good...

    20. AW

      Well, you've got... It's got caffeine, of course.

    21. JR

      Right.

    22. AW

      So you get stimulated by it, but it's also got L-theanine, which is this relaxant compound that modifies the effect of ca- caffeine and produces a state of relaxed alertness.

    23. JR

      Mm.

    24. AW

      So it doesn't have the jangling effect of coffee.

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. AW

      And, uh, you're getting all of these antioxidant benefits that are well-documented in tea. Anyway, I love it. It's a great thing.

    27. JR

      Any time you get one of these little whisks, it's cool. It's like a real bamboo one.

    28. AW

      Made from one piece of bamboo. It's a miracle of, uh, Japanese craftsmanship.

    29. JR

      It's beautiful.

    30. AW

      It's beautiful.

  3. 2:37 – 5:12

    Weil’s Japan origin story and sourcing premium matcha

    1. AW

      I love it. It's a good thing. I first tasted it when I was 17. I was an exchange student in Japan, uh, in 1959. I lived with a family outside of Tokyo. We had no language in common, and on the second night I was there, the mother took me next door to her neighbors who practiced tea ceremony. And they did this thing for me, and I was fascinated by that whisk and the color of the matcha, and I thought that it was great. You know, I never thought I'd be able to get it over here.

    2. JR

      Yeah, well, so you, you import this stuff yourself? Is that what you're doing?

    3. AW

      I started a company called, uh, Matcha Kari. We've got the URL matcha.com, and I went to, uh, Japan, to Uji, which is a little town outside of Kyoto where... which is the center of, um, the best tea production in Japan. And I sourced really good matcha. You know, there are many grades of matcha. The most... The highest are too expensive to use for everyday use. They're just-

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. AW

      Yeah, I mean, phenomenally expensive.

    6. JR

      Like how expensive? Like truffles or caviar or something like that?

    7. AW

      Yeah, up in the... Yeah, really expensive. So y- y- I've tried to find the best matcha that is affordable and, uh, make it available to people here.

    8. JR

      Mm-hmm. So, like, the highest level stuff, how much would it cost for a cup of tea?

    9. AW

      Hard to estimate for a cup, you know. It possibly... There's a preparation called thick tea in Japan where they use three times the amount of powder.

    10. JR

      Hm.

    11. AW

      And probably one bowl of that stuff, which is shared by several people, I don't know, it could be $100 a bowl.

    12. JR

      Whoa.

    13. AW

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Really?

    15. AW

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      For tea?

    17. AW

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      Why, h- why did it catch on in Japan like that?

    19. AW

      It's always been. You know, it has been in Japan for a very long time, and, and, uh, this powdered tea preparation was originally taken up by Zen monks, uh, to help them stay awake during long hours of meditation. It was also associated with samurai and became... The tea ceremony developed around that.

    20. JR

      Is there anything that, uh, is similar to it? Is it like yerba mate or guarana or any other kind of stimulants?

    21. AW

      Well, these are all caff- They're all caffeine plants, but in my experience, tea, I think, and it's primarily because of that L-theanine content-

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. AW

      ... uh, the effect is mellower of caffeine. So you get stimulated, you get alert, but it doesn't have the jangling effect of a lot of these other caffeine beverages.

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm. Do you drink regular coffee as well?

    25. AW

      No, I've never drunk coffee.

    26. JR

      No? Wow. Who are you?

    27. AW

      I think I was turned off because my parents, when I was growing up, drank really strong black coffee with no sugar or cream.

    28. JR

      Ah.

    29. AW

      I couldn't imagine why people would drink that.

    30. JR

      Savages.

  4. 5:12 – 6:22

    Eat the rainbow: pigments, phytonutrients, and anti-inflammatory eating

    1. JR

      And isn't it interesting that things that are good for you, many things that are good for you, like bell peppers or something like that, they have a, a beautiful color to them.

    2. AW

      Well, you know-

    3. JR

      They bring you to them.

    4. AW

      ... all these, uh, the health benefits of fruits and vegetables, a lot of them have to do with these pigments.

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. AW

      Uh, and the pigments the plants produce, they're part of their own defensive system, and they do good things in us. And, uh, one piece of advice that I often give people is, "You should try to eat across the color spectrum-"

    7. JR

      Mm.

    8. AW

      "... every day. Think about, you know, what'd you eat today that was red, what was purple, what was green, what was red?" All of these have s- different benefits.

    9. JR

      Is that, uh, a scientific perspective?

    10. AW

      Absolutely.

    11. JR

      Or... Really? Yeah.

    12. AW

      Yeah, yeah. These are categories of, uh, phytochemicals, or protective phytonutrients.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AW

      And a lot of them are these pigments that give, uh, fruits and vegetables their bright colors.

    15. JR

      Do you think that people should vary those colors b- on any given day? Or, like-

    16. AW

      I think y- I think y- as, as much as you can across any day, try to eat across the color spectrum.

    17. JR

      Hmm.

    18. AW

      That's a good thing to aim for.

    19. JR

      Okay, so just, just get as many of them as in, in as you can.

    20. AW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. JR

      Yeah. So, do you, you take this approach with fruits, with, with all sorts of different things?

    22. AW

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. AW

      Brightly colored stuff is good.

    25. JR

      Do you eat meat, or chicken-

    26. AW

      I don't.

    27. JR

      ... or fish?

    28. AW

      I'm, I'm fish and vegetables.

    29. JR

      Just fish and vegetables.

    30. AW

      Yeah.

  5. 6:22 – 8:23

    Fish, sustainability, and practical guides for safer seafood choices

    1. JR

      Yeah, yeah. Um, now, when you, you, you, y- d- the... One of the things I'm super concerned with, and I've been more concerned with the more I pay attention to it, is sustainability when it comes to fish.

    2. AW

      Absolutely.

    3. JR

      It seems like, uh, especially ocean fish, we're... you know, human beings are just terrible monsters.

    4. AW

      You know, there's a famous oceanographer in this country, Sylvia Earle, who was the woman that held a record for the deepest, uh, dive. And she came up to me at a meeting once and pleaded with me not to recommend that people eat fish.

    5. JR

      Really?

    6. AW

      She said there just aren't gonna be any in the future. And that's probably true.

    7. JR

      Hmm.

    8. AW

      Uh, you know, probably the future is gonna be farmed fish, and that can be done in a responsible way.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. AW

      You can get the good guides. One is put out by the Monterey Aquarium. You can get a wallet card that lists, that lists fish and, and shellfish, and rates them both by toxicity and sustainability.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AW

      And that's a good guide to follow.

    13. JR

      Yeah, um, mollusks? Eat mollusks?

    14. AW

      I d- I eat-

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. AW

      ... the... Yeah. I, I eat, uh, I like oysters, uh, and scallops. I eat them.

    17. JR

      What i- what has led you to not eat chicken, or fish, or d- or beef, rather?

    18. AW

      It's been a long time, and, uh, let's see. I was, I think, 28, and I, uh, was interested in yoga. And people that I knew who were doing yoga had become vegetarian.

    19. JR

      Hmm.

    20. AW

      And I saw friends of mine that had become vegetarian, and I thought, "Well, I'll just try it for a little while." And it agreed with me. I didn't eat fish for a number of years, and I found that made tr- international travel very difficult, especially to Japan. And, uh, and then I was reading about all the research on the good stuff in fish, and I started eating fish, and that, that way of eating agrees with me real well.

    21. JR

      Yeah. Um, it, it is a thing th- uh, an agree-with-you thing, right?

    22. AW

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      It's really dependent upon the person's-

    24. AW

      Very individual.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. AW

      So, you know, it's hard to give blanket rules, except I have no problem telling people to stay away from refined, processed, and manufactured food. That's the bad stuff.

    27. JR

      Yeah, that's a really good, clear thing that everybody can kind of apply in their life.

    28. AW

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      But as far as, like, what is gonna work for you, there's a lot of trial and error involved, isn't there?

    30. AW

      Absolutely, you gotta ch- do experiments, pay attention, see what works for you.

  6. 8:23 – 10:33

    Integrative medicine: definitions, doctor training, and how healing is supported

    1. JR

      Yeah. Now, y- you practice, what would you... how would you call it? Integrative medicine?

    2. AW

      Integrative medicine.

    3. JR

      Yeah. Well, how would you define that?

    4. AW

      Well, it's medicine of the future, and, uh-

    5. JR

      Ah.

    6. AW

      ... you know, and the short answer-

    7. JR

      Jamie, we're in the future.

    8. AW

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      All right.

    10. AW

      Short answer is, it's the intelligent combination of conventional and alternative medicine.

    11. JR

      Oh.

    12. AW

      But really, it's, it's a system that focuses on the body's ability to heal itself, that looks at people as whole persons, not just physical bodies, uh, that takes account of all aspects of lifestyle and understanding health and illness, uh, values the practitioner-patient relationship, and makes use of all therapies, no matter where they come from, that show reasonable evidence of efficacy and are not gonna hurt people.

    13. JR

      Hmm.

    14. AW

      So, I am absolutely convinced this is the way out of the health care crisis. I've been training doctors and other health professionals in it for many years now.

    15. JR

      N- now, when you say, "The body's ability to heal itself," how would you accentuate that? With-

    16. AW

      (laughs) This, to me, is the thing that's most missing from medical education. Uh, I, I, I, I think the only time I heard the word healing used in medical school was in the f- in wound healing-

    17. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    18. AW

      ... which, in my first-year course in histology. Uh, to me, the most marvelous thing about our bodies is that they have the capacity to heal themselves. You get a cut, you can watch it heal.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. AW

      And th- that happens throughout the body. You know, the DNA molecule, this is the big molecule on the border of life and non-life. It has within it the ability to "know," in quotes, when it's been injured. If a cosmic ray knocks a part of it out, instantly, it begins to manufacture repair enzymes that, that duplicate the missing piece and paste it in.

    21. JR

      Hmm.

    22. AW

      And you can see that same thing at any level of biological organization. And to me, that's where good medicine should start, that the body has within it the ability to maintain equilibrium, heal itself.

    23. JR

      Now, knowing that the body has this ability, what, what do you do to accentuate that?

    24. AW

      Well, if I... When I listen to a patient and hear their story, at the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "Why is healing not happening here?"

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. AW

      "What, what can I do from outside that can facilitate that?" I can't put it into somebody, but I can help it along-

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AW

      ... by either supplying energy, missing materials, remove obstacles to it. You know, like you have a wound that doesn't heal, maybe there's a foreign body in it. You remove that-

    29. JR

      Hmm.

    30. AW

      ... and it heals.

  7. 10:33 – 14:17

    Back pain as mind-body phenomenon: John Sarno, muscle spasm, and unnecessary interventions

    1. JR

      Now, um, when you have people that come to you that have issues, like say if someone comes to you and they have a back issue.

    2. AW

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      They're like, "I got a little bit of lower back pain." Do you approach that from a, uh, in, in terms of, like, how they're eating, how they're living their lifestyle first?

    4. AW

      ... I would question them about lifestyle for sure, but-

    5. JR

      Mmm.

    6. AW

      ... uh, you know, I'm a great follower of a, a man who died recently named John Sarno, who was a-

    7. JR

      Mmm, okay.

    8. AW

      ... and you know about his work?

    9. JR

      Yeah, sure.

    10. AW

      Uh, he has some great books, Mind Over Back Pain, Healing Back Pain, and his main belief, which I totally agree with, is that the vast majority of back pain is muscle spasm which originates in the mind.

    11. JR

      Mmm.

    12. AW

      Uh, and it may localize at an area of physical injury, but it, the, the injury is not the cause of it. You can live with a slipped disc and have no pain. Uh, you look at X-rays of people-

    13. JR

      How do you define slipped though? What does that mean?

    14. AW

      Well, there's-

    15. JR

      Does it mean bulging?

    16. AW

      Yeah, bulging.

    17. JR

      Does it mean herniated?

    18. AW

      Bulging or herniated.

    19. JR

      Right.

    20. AW

      That does not necessarily cause pain, uh, and unless there's associated neurological symptoms, you don't wanna do anything about that.

    21. JR

      Right. It's, unless it's pressing on a nerve.

    22. AW

      Exactly, right.

    23. JR

      Yeah. Now, um, John Sarno's idea was that it's a lot of stress and anxiety and a lot of different psychological factors that are causing this back pain.

    24. AW

      Right, and his ... He, I'm sure he was some, some kind of incredible healer.

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. AW

      He, he required that people who came to him come to two evening lectures that he gave, that's all. Many people who did that lost their back pain forever, just listening to him, so other people have had that happen just reading his book. Uh-

    27. JR

      Yeah, I read a little bit of it. It's, you know, I've had, like, legitimate injuries.

    28. AW

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      So whenever I hear someone say, "Oh, it's all in your head."

    30. AW

      Not, no, it's not all in your head.

  8. 14:17 – 20:15

    Placebo power and “medical hexing”: belief, language, and outcomes

    1. JR

      No, I ... There's, it's gotta be something to that, right? There's some- there's something to the placebo effect, right?

    2. AW

      Oh.

    3. JR

      So if there, if, if that is a real thing, if you can convince your body that it's got the medicine that it needs and it starts to heal even though there's no medicine, there's gotta be something that is working against you as well with the wrong mindset, right? Does that make sense?

    4. AW

      (laughs) Look, it's funny to me to hear people rediscovering the placebo effect now. I, I wrote a book in 1983 called Health and Healing. It had two chapters in there on placebos, and what I wrote is that the, the greatest problem is that we, you know, when we talk about placebos, it's in phrases like, "How do you know that's not just a placebo effect?"

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. AW

      The most interesting word there is just.

    7. JR

      Right.

    8. AW

      Or we have to rule out the placebo effect.

    9. JR

      Right.

    10. AW

      We should be ruling it in, man. That's the meat of medicine. That's pure healing from within mediated by belief-

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. AW

      ... unmixed up with the direct effects of treatment. That's what you wanna make happen more of the time.

    13. JR

      It just is a mind fuck for a lot of people 'cause they're like, "How am I tricking myself into getting better?"

    14. AW

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      "Why can't I just do it?"

    16. AW

      Because that ha- must have something to do with the structure of the brain, that the part of the brain in which our will is, isn't, doesn't connect directly to the machinery of the body, to the-

    17. JR

      Mmm.

    18. AW

      ... autonomic nervous system, so you have to find some way of getting around that. One way is to project belief onto something external and then let it work for you.

    19. JR

      Yeah, but that's so strange that the mind works that way. It would seem like-

    20. AW

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      ... wouldn't it be an evolutionary advantage just to have it at access, you know like-

    22. AW

      (laughs) Sure, that'd be nice.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. AW

      But that's the same thing, you know, it's a, a similar problem to why can't you just get high without taking a drug? The high is in your brain, not in the drug. The drug is a trigger that releases it. Why can't we just sit down and say, "Well, I'm gonna be high for the next 10 minutes"?

    25. JR

      Mmm.

    26. AW

      It's the same thing. We don't have access to those controls.

    27. JR

      Yeah, it just seems like that one though, the healing-

    28. AW

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... and getting better, that one seems like it's something that we should as a culture concentrate on, yet-

    30. AW

      For sure.

  9. 20:15 – 23:22

    Calling out wellness ‘bullshit’: crystals, colonics, and detox myths—plus real detox physiology

    1. JR

      Um, what, what do you not buy into? Like, when you say your bullshit detector. Like, what, where are you-

    2. AW

      All right. I'll give you an example. I've, uh, you know, I've, uh, I'm not... I can't see any basis for crystal healing. Uh, stuff on-

    3. JR

      Oh, bro, I got a crystal in my pocket right now.

    4. AW

      Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

    5. JR

      Damn it!

    6. AW

      All right. Well, too bad.

    7. JR

      Damn.

    8. AW

      How about the colonic irrigation people?

    9. JR

      Oh, yeah.

    10. AW

      That tell you-

    11. JR

      That seems...

    12. AW

      Tell you that they see, uh, you know, watermelon seeds coming out and you haven't eaten a watermelon in months. That's bullshit. The, the lining of the GI tract sloughed off and is regenerated every 24 hours.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. AW

      There's no way that things can get encrusted there.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. AW

      Or-

    17. JR

      That's a weird one, the colonic thing.

    18. AW

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      Because, uh, your body has all this natural bacteria that you're supposed to keep in there, right?

    20. AW

      Not only keep in there, we're finding out that that's, like, more and more a really important determinant of everything. Of general health, of mental health, too. Fascinating.

    21. JR

      Yeah. Whose idea was it to start doing those colonics?

    22. AW

      Uh, that must go way back. That's kind of like a, you know...

    23. JR

      Some wacky idea.

    24. AW

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Pump some water up there.

    26. AW

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. JR

      See what's up.

    28. AW

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      And you have to stand there while-

    30. AW

      And it gets... It's addictive, too.

  10. 23:22 – 30:09

    Addiction and mental health: quitting smoking, SSRIs skepticism, and anxiety breathing tools

    1. JR

      Yeah. Well, what, what do you do, um, when someone's a cigarette smoker?

    2. AW

      You tell them to set a date to quit.

    3. JR

      Set a date.

    4. AW

      That's the most important thing, because each attempt to qui- it doesn't matter if you succeed, it's making the attempt to quit-... goes into a reservoir of motivation that one day will be full enough that it's easy.

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. AW

      And this, by the way, happens with-

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. AW

      ... ha- happens with heroin addicts, happens with cigarette addicts. I've seen many people, lifelong cigarette addicts, struggled, gave it up, came back. One day they wake up and they look at stained fingers or a dirty ashtray, and they don't wanna do it anymore, and it's n- easy. There's no struggle. Same thing with heroin addicts. So it has to do with motivation. You can't put that into another person. You know, all you can do is arrange circumstances that maybe it'll happen. So the most important thing is to tell people to set a date to quit, and it doesn't matter if they... how long they stick with it.

    9. JR

      But you're saying there's, there's actually some strength to be gained from failed attempts?

    10. AW

      Yes. It's making the attempt that you get credit for.

    11. JR

      Really?

    12. AW

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    13. JR

      Interesting.

    14. AW

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      So the more... Like, say, if you're a drunk and you keep falling off the wagon, if you just keep making these attempts-

    16. AW

      Yes.

    17. JR

      No kidding.

    18. AW

      Really.

    19. JR

      So there's something ramps up in your mind-

    20. AW

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      ... that, that makes it more feasible for you to quit?

    22. AW

      Well, yes, and when it, when it happens, there's no struggle. It's not a, not...

    23. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AW

      It's not an issue. It's just you don't wanna do it anymore.

    25. JR

      Now, what do you do when, uh, people come to you and they're on antidepressants?

    26. AW

      Well, I have a book called Spontaneous Happiness, which is about emotional wellness. There's a lot there about antidepressants. First of all, they don't work so well, you know? That it's very hard to-

    27. JR

      Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

    28. AW

      Th- it's hard to distinguish them from placebos.

    29. JR

      Different on different people. Right.

    30. AW

      You know, the popular ones, the SSRIs.

  11. 30:09 – 40:10

    Psychedelics for therapy and surprising physical effects: ibogaine, microdosing, LSD/MDMA anecdotes

    1. JR

      Wow!Now, how do you feel about, um, psychedelic interventions when it comes to, um, e- addictions? Like, it seems that-

    2. AW

      (sighs) I-

    3. JR

      ... w- we're hearing more and more about that.

    4. AW

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      I know you have a background in that as well.

    6. AW

      Well, we're especially hearing about the iboga-

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. AW

      ... and ibogaine.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. AW

      This is the African, uh, psychedelic.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. AW

      And there are clinics and people using this that claim great success. I don't have firsthand experience. I only know what I've heard and what I've talked to people.

    13. JR

      Me too.

    14. AW

      Uh, but sounds good, and I think that most of the psychedelics are so non-toxic, uh, so safe, and in the right hands, I think there's m- many possibilities for, you know, good outcomes.

    15. JR

      Yeah, they've also had some pretty good results with cigarette cessation, right?

    16. AW

      Mm-hmm, yep.

    17. JR

      Um, with, uh, not just iboga, but even with psilocybin.

    18. AW

      Yep.

    19. JR

      Apparently, um, they had, uh ... They did a study where they show the difference between someone taking psilocybin to try to quit s- smoking cigarettes and some really large number of people, I think it was in the neighborhood of 80%, quit and then over the course of X amount of years, they were still at 60%.

    20. AW

      Uh-huh.

    21. JR

      So, only 20% of those people would come back.

    22. AW

      That's great.

    23. JR

      But, um, with other methods, the, the, the number was much smaller-

    24. AW

      Huh.

    25. JR

      ... somewhere in the range of 20 or-

    26. AW

      Huh.

    27. JR

      ... 15% after six years.

    28. AW

      Huh.

    29. JR

      A lot of them just went back to it.

    30. AW

      Ha. What do you make of the micro-dosing phenomenon? I mean, this is pretty astounding to see this happening.

  12. 40:10 – 43:07

    Consciousness theories, Rupert Sheldrake, and ‘memory in places’

    1. JR

      Yeah. There's, there's no doubt about it. But I, I'm, I am absolutely aware that there's some component, there's something about the mind and the way the mind interacts with matter and with life-

    2. AW

      Yep.

    3. JR

      ... that has a profound effect on your body, and it would be really nice if we were all better at controlling that.

    4. AW

      One of the, uh, insights that I've had in psychedelic states is that everything is conscious, that consciousness permeates everything, that, you know, I c- I, I feel what's ever in me, that my consciousness is also in rocks and in plants and in animals.

    5. JR

      Mmm.

    6. AW

      That there's some universal something out there. And it's... There are two, you know, really different ways of looking at reality. One is the materialist one, which is that consciousness is a product of brain biochemistry and electricity, and that is dominant in science today. The other is that the brain is a receiving apparatus for consciousness, and that consciousness is primary. Uh, maybe existed before matter, maybe organized matter into forms that are more and more able to experience themselves. I don't know. I don't think there's a way to prove one or the other. It's just that, for me, the consciousness as a primary one is more fun and makes life more interesting.

    7. JR

      I'm sure you're, uh, familiar with Rupert Sheldrake.

    8. AW

      Oh, yeah. He's a good friend.

    9. JR

      Yeah. R- r- very f- very interesting guy. He has a, an idea that everything has memory, right?

    10. AW

      Right. Yeah.

    11. JR

      He believes that, that, uh, uh... This would be, like, the reason, I guess, why some people would not want to live in a haunted house.

    12. AW

      Uh-huh.

    13. JR

      Right? They would think-

    14. AW

      Uh-huh.

    15. JR

      ... that if someone was murdered in a house, that it would retain some s- memory of these atrocities, and that you would somehow or another interact with that if you were in that house. So, like, spaces.

    16. AW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      Like, my dad is not a very, um... He's not a woo-woo kind of guy.

    18. AW

      Yep.

    19. JR

      But he went to Gettysburg.

    20. AW

      Uh-huh.

    21. JR

      And he was telling me that when he was at Gettysburg, that it just... He felt profound sadness.

    22. AW

      Oh.

    23. JR

      He's like, "It just seems like it's just in the ground, like the whole area." He goes, "I don't know how to describe it, but I wanted-"

    24. AW

      Huh.

    25. JR

      "... to get the fuck out of there."

    26. AW

      Huh.

    27. JR

      Like, just, just being around this area-

    28. AW

      Huh.

    29. JR

      ... where this battle had taken place-

    30. AW

      Huh.

  13. 43:07 – 52:49

    The neuroscience and social function of swearing

    1. AW

      Now Joe, I wanna talk to you about your language. Why the fuck do you swear so much?

    2. JR

      I don't know.

    3. AW

      Have you read anything about the science of swearing?

    4. JR

      (smacks lips) No.

    5. AW

      Do you know that there is a science of swearing?

    6. JR

      A science?

    7. AW

      Yes, it's pretty interesting stuff.

    8. JR

      Oh.

    9. AW

      So, the part of your brain that produces swear words is not the part of the brain that m- manages ordinary language.

    10. JR

      Oh.

    11. AW

      Really interesting. Uh, you know, we have two language centers in our left frontal cortex.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AW

      Uh, people that have strokes that damage them often lose language completely, but they can still swear.

    14. JR

      Oh. (laughs)

    15. AW

      So, swearing is coming from somewhere else. (laughs)

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. AW

      Uh, it may be coming from the right hemisphere.

    18. JR

      Mm.

    19. AW

      But it's also coming from deeper centers in the brain that connect to the limbic system and the amygdala, and that in- in- connects to the involuntary nervous system. So, here's a couple interesting facts.

    20. JR

      Okay.

    21. AW

      Uh, swearing is associated with sweating, increased sweating.

    22. JR

      Hmm.

    23. AW

      So you should be dripping with sweat. Uh- (laughs)

    24. JR

      I don't swear that much. I'm a comedian. I- I'm sure it's uncomfortable for you.

    25. AW

      Okay, second, secondly, also interesting, swearing, uh, in- increases pain tolerance.

    26. JR

      Interesting.

    27. AW

      And there's an interesting experiment. You know the standard way they do pain tolerance, they have people stick their hand in a bucket of ice and water.

    28. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. AW

      And you see how long they can keep it there. The people (slaps hands) who say, "Fuck," "Shit," can keep it there much longer than people who are not allowed to swear.

    30. JR

      Mm, what about noises? What if they just go, "Argh!" "Ha!"

  14. 52:49 – 1:03:57

    Cannabis research, legality friction, and why concentrates/edibles can be dangerous

    1. AW

      My first book, The Natural Mind, was published in s- 1972. It argued that everybody has an innate drive to alter their consciousness.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. AW

      And that, you know, drugs are one way of doing it. Uh, I did the first human experiments with pot that were ever done with, uh ... under double-blind conditions.

    4. JR

      What experiments did you do?

    5. AW

      I gave marijuana to people in a laboratory in 19, uh, 68.

    6. JR

      And what'd you test them for?

    7. AW

      Well, we were just seeing if ... People bet me you couldn't do it, and nobody had ever done this. You know, the, uh ... All this marijuana was becoming such a big thing, and nobody ... There were n- no experiments.

    8. JR

      Like, what, what, what kind of experiments? Like, what were you experimenting-

    9. AW

      I took, like, um, the most basic stuff. I just wanted to show that you could give it to human subjects in a lab and get away with it, 'cause people thought you couldn't.

    10. JR

      Oh.

    11. AW

      You know?

    12. JR

      You mean in terms of the FTC?

    13. AW

      Y- uh, in terms of law, lawsuits, everything.

    14. JR

      Okay.

    15. AW

      You know, one of the things, I wanted to give it to people that never had it before to s- so there'd be no expectations. Everyone said, "This is terrible. You know, they're gonna turn into heroin addicts from giving them-"

    16. JR

      Mm.

    17. AW

      "... stuff like that." Anyway, I just wanted to see basic stuff, like does it dilate the pupils of the eyes? Because cops were busting people. You know, they'd say, "Their eyes are dilated."

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. AW

      "Must be high on marijuana," and they'd search. But marijuana doesn't ... I s- we showed doesn't dilate the pupils of the eyes. I took ... ch- ta- tested blood sugar, 'cause people said the reason people get hungry is because blood sugar drops. Has no effect on blood sugar. Uh, we showed that, uh, you know, people ...... who had never had marijuana before in a lab, uh, w- you could show slight decreases in performance, in motor function and cognitive function. But people who were regular users of it, you couldn't show that.

    20. JR

      Hmm.

    21. AW

      That they had adapted to it.

    22. JR

      Yeah, my take on that is that I think the people that are not regular users are freaking out.

    23. AW

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Uh, and because they're n- they're nervous, and-

    25. AW

      It's novel sensations-

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. AW

      ... and they don't know what to do with it.

    28. JR

      Yeah, and they just don't, they don't know how to relax.

    29. AW

      Right.

    30. JR

      Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the big one to me with, uh, with physical movement.

  15. 1:03:57 – 1:07:10

    Cannabis as a ‘co-evolved’ utility plant and shifting public perception

    1. AW

      Well, you know, uh, given all this stuff, however, I, I am delighted to see our society finally coming to better terms with this plant.

    2. JR

      Yes. Me too.

    3. AW

      Uh, cannabis, you know, the, the, the word cannabis is the same word as canvas.

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AW

      Uh, all canvas sails and rope used to be made from hemp.

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. AW

      Uh, the... And the species name sativa means useful. It's the useful hemp. It's really useful. You know, this is one plant that ha- provides an edible seed, an edible oil, a, a high-quality fiber, a medicine, and an intoxicant. That's a lot of ways for a plant to be useful. Uh, we have been very stupid in our relationship with that plant.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. AW

      The, uh, cannabis, it's, it's the equivalent of the dog in the plant world.

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AW

      Dogs long ago made a decision to co-evolve with us. They threw their evolutionary lot in with humans. Cannabis did the same thing. You can't unravel the early botanical history of cannabis 'cause as far back in history as you, we go, it's always associated with human settlements.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. AW

      So that plant wants nothing other than to be with us and to serve us. And we have been so stupid. We've let a billion-dollar inter- industry in hemp textiles go to China. We've let a million-dollar industry in edible hemp products go to Canada. Uh, and we have ignored its potential for medicine.

    14. JR

      Well, I'm really hoping that things are gonna change in terms of-

    15. AW

      They will.

    16. JR

      ... our cultivation of hemp. Um, you know, I'm one of the owners of Onnit and we sell hemp protein. And one of the-

    17. AW

      Great, yeah.

    18. JR

      ... we used to get our hemp protein from Canada.

    19. AW

      Yep.

    20. JR

      We used to have to get it from Canada.

    21. AW

      Right.

    22. JR

      And we... And then sell it in America.

    23. AW

      Yep.

    24. JR

      We couldn't grow it here.

    25. AW

      Stupid. Well, that's gonna change.

    26. JR

      Yeah. I'm so hopeful-

    27. AW

      It's gonna change.

    28. JR

      ... that it does change. It is, um, it's fascinating also how well the propaganda worked against it and how long, even in defiance of all the facts.

    29. AW

      Now, I have to tell you, when I did those pot experiments in 1968, uh, I predicted that pot was gonna be legal in five years.

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  16. 1:07:10 – 1:11:09

    Opioids, social toxicity, and integrative pain management as the path forward

    1. JR

      Well, how about fentanyl?

    2. AW

      Right, sure. Sure.

    3. JR

      That one, that one scares the shit outta me.

    4. AW

      Sure.

    5. JR

      They just keep ramping that one up-

    6. AW

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      ... and making it more and more potent.

    8. AW

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      It just ... The idea that o- opioids weren't killing people quick enough, that we needed to make some ridiculously potent versions of it. And apparently, now, there's, they're p- approving something that's even more powerful than fentanyl.

    10. AW

      Yeah, I've read that, yeah.

    11. JR

      Like what? Why would you do that?

    12. AW

      (sighs) But, you know, on a physiological level, opioids are not that bad for your body. Y- the worst effect of being addicted to an opioid over time is chronic constipation. I mean, that's annoying, but that's not like cirrhosis of the liver-

Episode duration: 1:52:15

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