Joe Rogan Experience #1213 - Dr. Andrew Weil

Joe Rogan 0:03 Four, three, two... All the way from Tucson, Arizona, (claps) Dr. Weil. How are you, sir?

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:11 I am good.

Joe Rogan 0:12 Thanks for doing this, man. I appreciate it.

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:13 Pleasure.

Joe Rogan 0:14 You come highly recommended by many human beings that I know.

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:16 Well, I'm glad to hear it.

Joe Rogan 0:18 How do you, uh, how do you get such a fine reputation?

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:20 Well, I've been doing the same things for a long time, just putting one foot ahead of the other and, uh, saying what I know to be true.

Joe Rogan 0:26 And, uh, and pushing matcha.

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:28 Everybody likes matcha. Who doesn't like matcha tea?

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:31 Well-

Joe Rogan 0:31 This is your stuff?

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:32 Yeah, but you know, a lot of people don't... have only tasted really bad matcha because-

Joe Rogan 0:35 Oh, okay, enlighten me. What's the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:37 Uh-

Joe Rogan 0:37 What's the deal?

Dr. Andrew Weil 0:37 You know, it's powdered tea, and it's very, very finely powdered, and it's very labor-intensive to prepare. And, uh, it's got such a huge surface area that it oxidizes very quickly. So if it's not properly packed and stored, it loses its brilliant green color, it turns yellow-green or gray-green, it gets bitter, and loses its taste. And I gotta say, most of the matcha that I see served (laughs) in this country is of that sort, and many-

Joe Rogan 1:00 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00 ... people have never had the good stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Well, what's the benefits of matcha? I know there's cognitive benefits.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05 First of all, it's, it's beautiful. I mean, I've never seen a green color like that.

Joe Rogan 1:08 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:08 It's just amazing. And the flavor's amazing, but it's the only preparation of tea in which the whole leaf is consumed. Uh, and-

Joe Rogan 1:15 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:15 ... and it's grown under special conditions. The leaves are shaded, uh, deep shade for the last three weeks before harvest. So the... in response to that, the leaves produce more chlorophyll, more antioxidants, more of the good stuff. So it's got, uh, you know, much more of the things you want.

Joe Rogan 1:31 And this has like a pop top, like Pringles.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:35 Right? Is that... So the matcha's in there?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36 It's gotta stay fresh, and after you open it-

Joe Rogan 1:38 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:38 ... you wanna keep it in the freezer and, and-

Joe Rogan 1:40 Oh, okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:40 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:40 Freezer.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:41 You got it. Freezer. And you should sift it so it doesn't form lumps, and then you whisk it with that traditional bamboo whisk, or you buy a little electric whisker-

Joe Rogan 1:48 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:49 ... and you can whisk it in hot water or cold water, and it's very yummy.

Joe Rogan 1:52 And w- what, what does it do for you? Like, what's the good...

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:55 Well, you've got... It's got caffeine, of course.

Joe Rogan 1:58 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:58 So you get stimulated by it, but it's also got L-theanine, which is this relaxant compound that modifies the effect of ca- caffeine and produces a state of relaxed alertness.

Joe Rogan 2:08 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:08 So it doesn't have the jangling effect of coffee.

Joe Rogan 2:11 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:11 And, uh, you're getting all of these antioxidant benefits that are well-documented in tea. Anyway, I love it. It's a great thing.

Joe Rogan 2:17 Any time you get one of these little whisks, it's cool. It's like a real bamboo one.

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:21 Made from one piece of bamboo. It's a miracle of, uh, Japanese craftsmanship.

Joe Rogan 2:25 It's beautiful.

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:26 It's beautiful.

Joe Rogan 2:28 So, um, how often do you drink this stuff?

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:30 I have a bowl of it every morning, and sometimes-

Joe Rogan 2:31 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:32 Yeah, and sometimes I have a glass of, uh, iced matcha later in the day, especially in warm weather.

Joe Rogan 2:36 You're just a matcha fiend.

Dr. Andrew Weil 2:37 I love it. It's a good thing. I first tasted it when I was 17. I was an exchange student in Japan, uh, in 1959. I lived with a family outside of Tokyo. We had no language in common, and on the second night I was there, the mother took me next door to her neighbors who practiced tea ceremony. And they did this thing for me, and I was fascinated by that whisk and the color of the matcha, and I thought that it was great. You know, I never thought I'd be able to get it over here.

Joe Rogan 3:02 Yeah, well, so you, you import this stuff yourself? Is that what you're doing?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:05 I started a company called, uh, Matcha Kari. We've got the URL matcha.com, and I went to, uh, Japan, to Uji, which is a little town outside of Kyoto where... which is the center of, um, the best tea production in Japan. And I sourced really good matcha. You know, there are many grades of matcha. The most... The highest are too expensive to use for everyday use. They're just-

Joe Rogan 3:25 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:25 Yeah, I mean, phenomenally expensive.

Joe Rogan 3:27 Like how expensive? Like truffles or caviar or something like that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:29 Yeah, up in the... Yeah, really expensive. So y- y- I've tried to find the best matcha that is affordable and, uh, make it available to people here.

Joe Rogan 3:37 Mm-hmm. So, like, the highest level stuff, how much would it cost for a cup of tea?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:41 Hard to estimate for a cup, you know. It possibly... There's a preparation called thick tea in Japan where they use three times the amount of powder.

Joe Rogan 3:48 Hm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:48 And probably one bowl of that stuff, which is shared by several people, I don't know, it could be $100 a bowl.

Joe Rogan 3:54 Whoa.

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:54 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:55 For tea?

Dr. Andrew Weil 3:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:57 Why, h- why did it catch on in Japan like that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:00 It's always been. You know, it has been in Japan for a very long time, and, and, uh, this powdered tea preparation was originally taken up by Zen monks, uh, to help them stay awake during long hours of meditation. It was also associated with samurai and became... The tea ceremony developed around that.

Joe Rogan 4:17 Is there anything that, uh, is similar to it? Is it like yerba mate or guarana or any other kind of stimulants?

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:24 Well, these are all caff- They're all caffeine plants, but in my experience, tea, I think, and it's primarily because of that L-theanine content-

Joe Rogan 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:32 ... uh, the effect is mellower of caffeine. So you get stimulated, you get alert, but it doesn't have the jangling effect of a lot of these other caffeine beverages.

Joe Rogan 4:40 Mm-hmm. Do you drink regular coffee as well?

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:42 No, I've never drunk coffee.

Joe Rogan 4:44 No? Wow. Who are you?

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:45 I think I was turned off because my parents, when I was growing up, drank really strong black coffee with no sugar or cream.

Joe Rogan 4:50 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:50 I couldn't imagine why people would drink that.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Savages.

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:53 Those people, they were different people. Did you grow up in a northern climate?

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:56 I grew up in Philadelphia.

Joe Rogan 4:58 Yeah, see, when it's cold outside-

Dr. Andrew Weil 4:59 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 5:00 ... the people, they drink that black coffee.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:01 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 5:03 Oof.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:03 Oof. Just makes you angry at the world.Yeah. Dark black, burnt coffee.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:09 I like bright green, shining-

Joe Rogan 5:11 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:11 ... matcha. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:12 And isn't it interesting that things that are good for you, many things that are good for you, like bell peppers or something like that, they have a, a beautiful color to them.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:20 Well, you know-

Joe Rogan 5:21 They bring you to them.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:21 ... all these, uh, the health benefits of fruits and vegetables, a lot of them have to do with these pigments.

Joe Rogan 5:26 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:26 Uh, and the pigments the plants produce, they're part of their own defensive system, and they do good things in us. And, uh, one piece of advice that I often give people is, "You should try to eat across the color spectrum-"

Joe Rogan 5:38 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:38 "... every day. Think about, you know, what'd you eat today that was red, what was purple, what was green, what was red?" All of these have s- different benefits.

Joe Rogan 5:45 Is that, uh, a scientific perspective?

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:47 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 5:47 Or... Really? Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:48 Yeah, yeah. These are categories of, uh, phytochemicals, or protective phytonutrients.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 5:53 And a lot of them are these pigments that give, uh, fruits and vegetables their bright colors.

Joe Rogan 5:57 Do you think that people should vary those colors b- on any given day? Or, like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:01 I think y- I think y- as, as much as you can across any day, try to eat across the color spectrum.

Joe Rogan 6:06 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:06 That's a good thing to aim for.

Joe Rogan 6:08 Okay, so just, just get as many of them as in, in as you can.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:12 Yeah. So, do you, you take this approach with fruits, with, with all sorts of different things?

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:17 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:17 Brightly colored stuff is good.

Joe Rogan 6:18 Do you eat meat, or chicken-

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:19 I don't.

Joe Rogan 6:20 ... or fish?

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:20 I'm, I'm fish and vegetables.

Joe Rogan 6:21 Just fish and vegetables.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:22 Yeah, yeah. Um, now, when you, you, you, y- d- the... One of the things I'm super concerned with, and I've been more concerned with the more I pay attention to it, is sustainability when it comes to fish.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:31 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 6:31 It seems like, uh, especially ocean fish, we're... you know, human beings are just terrible monsters.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:36 You know, there's a famous oceanographer in this country, Sylvia Earle, who was the woman that held a record for the deepest, uh, dive. And she came up to me at a meeting once and pleaded with me not to recommend that people eat fish.

Joe Rogan 6:47 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:47 She said there just aren't gonna be any in the future. And that's probably true.

Joe Rogan 6:52 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:52 Uh, you know, probably the future is gonna be farmed fish, and that can be done in a responsible way.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:58 You can get the good guides. One is put out by the Monterey Aquarium. You can get a wallet card that lists, that lists fish and, and shellfish, and rates them both by toxicity and sustainability.

Joe Rogan 7:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:09 And that's a good guide to follow.

Joe Rogan 7:11 Yeah, um, mollusks? Eat mollusks?

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:13 I d- I eat-

Joe Rogan 7:14 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:14 ... the... Yeah. I, I eat, uh, I like oysters, uh, and scallops. I eat them.

Joe Rogan 7:21 What i- what has led you to not eat chicken, or fish, or d- or beef, rather?

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:25 It's been a long time, and, uh, let's see. I was, I think, 28, and I, uh, was interested in yoga. And people that I knew who were doing yoga had become vegetarian.

Joe Rogan 7:36 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:36 And I saw friends of mine that had become vegetarian, and I thought, "Well, I'll just try it for a little while." And it agreed with me. I didn't eat fish for a number of years, and I found that made tr- international travel very difficult, especially to Japan. And, uh, and then I was reading about all the research on the good stuff in fish, and I started eating fish, and that, that way of eating agrees with me real well.

Joe Rogan 7:56 Yeah. Um, it, it is a thing th- uh, an agree-with-you thing, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:00 It's really dependent upon the person's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:02 Very individual.

Joe Rogan 8:03 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:03 So, you know, it's hard to give blanket rules, except I have no problem telling people to stay away from refined, processed, and manufactured food. That's the bad stuff.

Joe Rogan 8:11 Yeah, that's a really good, clear thing that everybody can kind of apply in their life.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:15 But as far as, like, what is gonna work for you, there's a lot of trial and error involved, isn't there?

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:19 Absolutely, you gotta ch- do experiments, pay attention, see what works for you.

Joe Rogan 8:23 Yeah. Now, y- you practice, what would you... how would you call it? Integrative medicine?

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:26 Integrative medicine.

Joe Rogan 8:27 Yeah. Well, how would you define that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:29 Well, it's medicine of the future, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 8:31 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:31 ... you know, and the short answer-

Joe Rogan 8:32 Jamie, we're in the future.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:33 All right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:33 Short answer is, it's the intelligent combination of conventional and alternative medicine.

Joe Rogan 8:37 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:38 But really, it's, it's a system that focuses on the body's ability to heal itself, that looks at people as whole persons, not just physical bodies, uh, that takes account of all aspects of lifestyle and understanding health and illness, uh, values the practitioner-patient relationship, and makes use of all therapies, no matter where they come from, that show reasonable evidence of efficacy and are not gonna hurt people.

Joe Rogan 8:59 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:59 So, I am absolutely convinced this is the way out of the health care crisis. I've been training doctors and other health professionals in it for many years now.

Joe Rogan 9:08 N- now, when you say, "The body's ability to heal itself," how would you accentuate that? With-

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:12 (laughs) This, to me, is the thing that's most missing from medical education. Uh, I, I, I, I think the only time I heard the word healing used in medical school was in the f- in wound healing-

Joe Rogan 9:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:23 ... which, in my first-year course in histology. Uh, to me, the most marvelous thing about our bodies is that they have the capacity to heal themselves. You get a cut, you can watch it heal.

Joe Rogan 9:34 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:34 And th- that happens throughout the body. You know, the DNA molecule, this is the big molecule on the border of life and non-life. It has within it the ability to "know," in quotes, when it's been injured. If a cosmic ray knocks a part of it out, instantly, it begins to manufacture repair enzymes that, that duplicate the missing piece and paste it in.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:55 And you can see that same thing at any level of biological organization. And to me, that's where good medicine should start, that the body has within it the ability to maintain equilibrium, heal itself.

Joe Rogan 10:05 Now, knowing that the body has this ability, what, what do you do to accentuate that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:09 Well, if I... When I listen to a patient and hear their story, at the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "Why is healing not happening here?"

Joe Rogan 10:16 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:16 "What, what can I do from outside that can facilitate that?" I can't put it into somebody, but I can help it along-

Joe Rogan 10:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:24 ... by either supplying energy, missing materials, remove obstacles to it. You know, like you have a wound that doesn't heal, maybe there's a foreign body in it. You remove that-

Joe Rogan 10:32 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:32 ... and it heals.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Now, um, when you have people that come to you that have issues, like say if someone comes to you and they have a back issue.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:40 They're like, "I got a little bit of lower back pain." Do you approach that from a, uh, in, in terms of, like, how they're eating, how they're living their lifestyle first?

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:48 ... I would question them about lifestyle for sure, but-

Joe Rogan 10:51 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:51 ... uh, you know, I'm a great follower of a, a man who died recently named John Sarno, who was a-

Joe Rogan 10:56 Mmm, okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:56 ... and you know about his work?

Joe Rogan 10:57 Yeah, sure.

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:58 Uh, he has some great books, Mind Over Back Pain, Healing Back Pain, and his main belief, which I totally agree with, is that the vast majority of back pain is muscle spasm which originates in the mind.

Joe Rogan 11:10 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:11 Uh, and it may localize at an area of physical injury, but it, the, the injury is not the cause of it. You can live with a slipped disc and have no pain. Uh, you look at X-rays of people-

Joe Rogan 11:21 How do you define slipped though? What does that mean?

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:23 Well, there's-

Joe Rogan 11:23 Does it mean bulging?

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:23 Yeah, bulging.

Joe Rogan 11:24 Does it mean herniated?

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:24 Bulging or herniated.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:26 That does not necessarily cause pain, uh, and unless there's associated neurological symptoms, you don't wanna do anything about that.

Joe Rogan 11:33 Right. It's, unless it's pressing on a nerve.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:35 Exactly, right.

Joe Rogan 11:37 Yeah. Now, um, John Sarno's idea was that it's a lot of stress and anxiety and a lot of different psychological factors that are causing this back pain.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:46 Right, and his ... He, I'm sure he was some, some kind of incredible healer.

Joe Rogan 11:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:49 He, he required that people who came to him come to two evening lectures that he gave, that's all. Many people who did that lost their back pain forever, just listening to him, so other people have had that happen just reading his book. Uh-

Joe Rogan 12:01 Yeah, I read a little bit of it. It's, you know, I've had, like, legitimate injuries.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:05 So whenever I hear someone say, "Oh, it's all in your head."

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:09 Not, no, it's not all in your head.

Joe Rogan 12:10 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:10 It's in your head and your-

Joe Rogan 12:11 A lot, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:11 ... and your body. It's in your head and your muscles.

Joe Rogan 12:13 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:13 And the l- the, this problem of muscle spasm, which shuts off blood supply and it's a vicious cycle-

Joe Rogan 12:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:20 ... that'll localize in an area you've had physical injury.

Joe Rogan 12:23 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:23 But the pain is not coming from the injury. It's coming from muscle spasm, and that's controlled by, uh, greatly influenced by the mind.

Joe Rogan 12:30 So when you, when your back is like, "Ah," and seizes up, that is a muscle spasm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:35 And that's incredibly painful.

Joe Rogan 12:36 And it's located in the area of the injury, so it-

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:39 Correct.

Joe Rogan 12:39 ... can confuse you into thinking it's the injury that's causing you pain when it's in fact-

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:43 And leads people into getting physical interventions that-

Joe Rogan 12:46 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:46 ... may not be necessary.

Joe Rogan 12:47 Yeah, I'm a big, uh, believer in waiting, especially with spinal stuff.

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:52 Absolutely, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 12:54 It's, it's they always wanna fuse you and cut you and ...

Dr. Andrew Weil 12:56 (laughs) You look at ... Here's another interesting thing. You can look at X-rays of people's spines that look so horrible, you can't imagine that they can move.

Joe Rogan 13:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:04 And they have no- nothing, no symptoms, and you can look at other X-rays that look perfect and people are disabled by pain. So there's a very low correlation between physical findings and subjective experience.

Joe Rogan 13:16 Now, what does Sarno recommend? I, I never really got-

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:18 He recommends going about your business.

Joe Rogan 13:20 Going about your business.

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:21 Yeah, ignoring it, going about your business, and if possible, try to figure out, you know, what, what message, you know, your mind is sending down there, but basically it's reassurance that it'll go away on its own.

Joe Rogan 13:32 So when he does these lectures and h- he has people, it cures them of it, is he, is he just reassuring them that everything's gonna be okay and they-

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:39 (laughs) No, he's explaining this process-

Joe Rogan 13:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:40 ... of how, he calls it tension myositis syndrome and he explains-

Joe Rogan 13:44 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:44 ... the mechanism of how it works. One friend of mine, he was in his late 20s, uh, played a lot of basketball, had, uh, you know, very s- serious herniated discs. He was within, uh, hours of having neurological surgery, spinal surgery, and I yelled at him to read this book and see Sarno. He was in New York. And he said, "I don't believe any of that. It's all bullshit."

Joe Rogan 14:03 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:03 And I said, "Go, go see him." So he went to see him, or went to the evening lectures, thought this was nonsense, uh, went home, was having dinner and realized his back pain was gone and never had surgery.

Joe Rogan 14:14 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:16 Jesus Christ.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:16 Yeah, really.

Joe Rogan 14:17 No, I ... There's, it's gotta be something to that, right? There's some- there's something to the placebo effect, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:23 Oh.

Joe Rogan 14:23 So if there, if, if that is a real thing, if you can convince your body that it's got the medicine that it needs and it starts to heal even though there's no medicine, there's gotta be something that is working against you as well with the wrong mindset, right? Does that make sense?

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:36 (laughs) Look, it's funny to me to hear people rediscovering the placebo effect now. I, I wrote a book in 1983 called Health and Healing. It had two chapters in there on placebos, and what I wrote is that the, the greatest problem is that we, you know, when we talk about placebos, it's in phrases like, "How do you know that's not just a placebo effect?"

Joe Rogan 14:53 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:53 The most interesting word there is just.

Joe Rogan 14:55 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:55 Or we have to rule out the placebo effect.

Joe Rogan 14:57 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:57 We should be ruling it in, man. That's the meat of medicine. That's pure healing from within mediated by belief-

Joe Rogan 15:04 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:04 ... unmixed up with the direct effects of treatment. That's what you wanna make happen more of the time.

Joe Rogan 15:08 It just is a mind fuck for a lot of people 'cause they're like, "How am I tricking myself into getting better?"

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:12 "Why can't I just do it?"

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:13 Because that ha- must have something to do with the structure of the brain, that the part of the brain in which our will is, isn't, doesn't connect directly to the machinery of the body, to the-

Joe Rogan 15:24 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:24 ... autonomic nervous system, so you have to find some way of getting around that. One way is to project belief onto something external and then let it work for you.

Joe Rogan 15:32 Yeah, but that's so strange that the mind works that way. It would seem like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:37 ... wouldn't it be an evolutionary advantage just to have it at access, you know like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:41 (laughs) Sure, that'd be nice.

Joe Rogan 15:41 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:41 But that's the same thing, you know, it's a, a similar problem to why can't you just get high without taking a drug? The high is in your brain, not in the drug. The drug is a trigger that releases it. Why can't we just sit down and say, "Well, I'm gonna be high for the next 10 minutes"?

Joe Rogan 15:54 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:54 It's the same thing. We don't have access to those controls.

Joe Rogan 15:58 Yeah, it just seems like that one though, the healing-

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:02 ... and getting better, that one seems like it's something that we should as a culture concentrate on, yet-

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:06 For sure.

Joe Rogan 16:07 ... what we really concentrate on is actual medicine.

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:10 But one way to concentrate on that is by giving people greater confidence in their body's ability to do that.

Joe Rogan 16:15 Mmm, okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:15 And doctors have great power to do that because patients project a lot of belief on them.

Joe Rogan 16:19 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:20 I've had many patients over the years who said that the most important thing I did for them was that I was the only doctor who told them they could get better. I mean, astonishing.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:29 Yeah. Is it because doctors are just seeing too many patients and they're overwhelmed and they got legal bills and they have-

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:36 I think some ... I, I've thought about this a lot, and I, I, I ... There's also the negative side of this. I've seen what, there's something called medical hexing in which doctors say things that actually interfere with healing or cause people to get worse, and I think a lot of this is done unconsciously.

Joe Rogan 16:52 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:52 Uh, so here's one of my thoughts. In their training, um, doctors see a very skewed sample of sick people. They see very sick people in hospitals.

Joe Rogan 17:01 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:01 And in that group, healing is less likely to happen, but if you look at the total spectrum of illness, the vast majority of things get better on their own.So, I think, you know, i- i- observing in yourself h- wound healing is a good one to start with, to get greater confidence in your body's ability to do things. That's really valuable.

Joe Rogan 17:21 So, but this... Obviously, you're not talking about catastrophic injuries, you're just talking about general wellness.

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:27 I think even in the case of, of catastrophic injury, this stuff operates. I worked a lot with hypnotherapists over the years, and one of the, one of my colleagues, uh, did a lot of work in training paramedics to be really careful about what you say around unconscious people who have been massively injured. Uh, you know, when the... If a, if a paramedic takes an automobile accident victim and they're putting them in and says, "This one's a goner," that is a bad thing. You know?

Joe Rogan 17:52 Oh, wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:52 The unconscious mind hears that. On... And on the other hand, you say something opposite to a person, y- you can see cases where you can stop bleeding in unconscious people, severely injured, just by giving them suggestions.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Whoa!

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:08 So, b- when you're saying someone's a goner, you trigger stress or you trigger helplessness. Like, what is happening?

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:14 Well, to have a medically-trained person tell you-

Joe Rogan 18:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:18 ... that you're not gonna live, that's a-

Joe Rogan 18:19 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:19 That's a curse.

Joe Rogan 18:20 Yeah. But it's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:21 It's a medical hex.

Joe Rogan 18:22 How strange is it that sometimes your life is hanging on the border of you believing you're gonna be okay and you believing you're not gonna be okay?

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:29 So, you wanna be very careful about, you know, whose hands you place yourself in.

Joe Rogan 18:33 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:34 You never wanna stay in treatment with a doctor who thinks you can't get better.

Joe Rogan 18:38 A negative doctor.

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:39 Well, doctors are just like every other-

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:41 ... occupation. There's people that are really good at it, and are really concentrated and focused, and there's people that are half-assing it.

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:46 Well, the ones I train through our University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine get it. You know, we're putting out... We've graduated about 1,600 physicians now from very intensive training. They're in practice all over the country, teaching other people. This is a good thing.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Now, when you say integrative medicine, when they're in practice, are they d- essentially general practitioners and then-

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:04 No. We t- we've trained people from all specialties.

Joe Rogan 19:06 Ah, okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:06 Any specialty you can name, we've trained them.

Joe Rogan 19:08 So, orthopedic surgeons-

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:09 Yep.

Joe Rogan 19:09 And even...

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:10 Neurologists, dermatologists-

Joe Rogan 19:11 And neurologists.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:11 Anything you can name.

Joe Rogan 19:12 Whatever it is.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:13 And so you try to tend to look at them...

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:16 We teach them all the things they didn't get in medical school. Nutrition, mind/body interactions-

Joe Rogan 19:20 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:20 Uh, strengths and weaknesses of alternative medicine, herbal medicine, all that.

Joe Rogan 19:23 Like, say someone comes to you, maybe they have a bad case of psoriasis or something-

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:27 Autoimmune issue like that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:28 Prime, prime target for mind/body medicine, for traditional Chinese medicine, which often works well in, in that. Dietary change, put people on an anti-inflammatory diet, use of natural products that reduce inflammation. So, there's a wide range of things to choose from. And this does not reject conventional treatment. You know?

Joe Rogan 19:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:47 It m- we may use conventional medication, but if you do, I, I recommend using the lowest dose of the least potent agent. Start off with that and you can ramp up if you need to.

Joe Rogan 19:57 Well, a lot of people and me, I'm definitely guilty of this, they hear terms like holistic or, uh, e- eastern medicine or Chinese medicine-

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:06 ... and you go, "Bullshit."

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:08 Right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:08 Well, I have a good bullshit detector, too.

Joe Rogan 20:10 Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:10 And, uh, so I'm really careful about what I, you know, accept and what I don't.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Um, what, what do you not buy into? Like, when you say your bullshit detector. Like, what, where are you-

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:21 All right. I'll give you an example. I've, uh, you know, I've, uh, I'm not... I can't see any basis for crystal healing. Uh, stuff on-

Joe Rogan 20:27 Oh, bro, I got a crystal in my pocket right now.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:28 Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:29 Damn it!

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:29 All right. Well, too bad.

Joe Rogan 20:31 Damn.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:31 How about the colonic irrigation people?

Joe Rogan 20:34 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:34 That tell you-

Joe Rogan 20:35 That seems...

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:35 Tell you that they see, uh, you know, watermelon seeds coming out and you haven't eaten a watermelon in months. That's bullshit. The, the lining of the GI tract sloughed off and is regenerated every 24 hours.

Joe Rogan 20:46 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:46 There's no way that things can get encrusted there.

Joe Rogan 20:49 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:49 Or-

Joe Rogan 20:49 That's a weird one, the colonic thing.

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:52 Because, uh, your body has all this natural bacteria that you're supposed to keep in there, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:57 Not only keep in there, we're finding out that that's, like, more and more a really important determinant of everything. Of general health, of mental health, too. Fascinating.

Joe Rogan 21:05 Yeah. Whose idea was it to start doing those colonics?

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:08 Uh, that must go way back. That's kind of like a, you know...

Joe Rogan 21:11 Some wacky idea.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:12 Pump some water up there.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:13 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:14 See what's up.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:15 And you have to stand there while-

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:16 And it gets... It's addictive, too.

Joe Rogan 21:18 D- Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:18 I see people who get addicted to this. Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Oh, Jesus.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:20 Yeah. So...

Joe Rogan 21:21 Out of all the things.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:21 Yeah, I won't go further into that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:24 (laughs) My wife had it done once and she was describing it to me. I'm like, "Yeah, I wanna pass."

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:28 Some lady's looking at the tube and telling you what's going on in there.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:31 Like, what? Some lady's, like, looking at your shit?

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:33 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 21:34 It started as early as 1500 BC. Ebers papy- papyrus, uh, an ancient Egyptian medical document-

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:40 ... described the many benefits of colon cleansing. In ancient times, the practice of cleansing the colon was administered in a river by using a hollow reed to induce water to flow into the rectum.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:51 You don't wanna drink downstream of that.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 21:54 And, and, uh, you know, there's no need to do this. Y- what you wanna do is make sure that things are going through in the right direction-

Joe Rogan 22:01 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:01 Regularly, and it cleans itself.

Joe Rogan 22:03 That's how it's supposed to do it, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:05 Another big one, I hear all these people that talk about detox, detoxification-

Joe Rogan 22:09 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:09 And sell all these products. The body has many natural methods of purifying itself and getting rid of things it doesn't want.

Joe Rogan 22:17 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:17 One is through sweating. Uh, one is through breathing. One is through urination. One is through colonic elimination. Uh, the liver has an incredible capacity to detoxify. It can take... You know, you put something into your body, the liver, within seconds of seeing a compound that it has never seen before, can begin making a specific enzyme to take that apart and get rid of it.

Joe Rogan 22:42 Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:43 And you can amputate half of the liver and it can regenerate, uh, within 36 hours.

Joe Rogan 22:49 What?

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:49 Yes. Liver's amazing.

Joe Rogan 22:50 36 hours?

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 22:52 So, I thought when you gave someone, like, half your liver, if there was, like, a liver transplant issue, that it took a long time. I didn't know it was 36 hours.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:58 No, liver can regenerate really quickly. And there's-

Joe Rogan 23:00 That's insane.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:00 And there's a natural product that you can take that most doctors don't learn about called milk thistle.

Joe Rogan 23:06 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:06 You've probably heard of that, that revs up liver metabolism. So-

Joe Rogan 23:09 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:09 You know, these are all simple ways to increase... But the first rule of detoxification, I'm sure you can guess, you stop putting toxic things in.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Aha!

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:19 Cut it off at the pass.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:20 And let it, let the body get, you know, purify itself.

Joe Rogan 23:22 Yeah. Well, what, what do you do, um, when someone's a cigarette smoker?

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:27 You tell them to set a date to quit.

Joe Rogan 23:29 Set a date.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:29 That's the most important thing, because each attempt to qui- it doesn't matter if you succeed, it's making the attempt to quit-... goes into a reservoir of motivation that one day will be full enough that it's easy.

Joe Rogan 23:42 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:42 And this, by the way, happens with-

Joe Rogan 23:43 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:44 ... ha- happens with heroin addicts, happens with cigarette addicts. I've seen many people, lifelong cigarette addicts, struggled, gave it up, came back. One day they wake up and they look at stained fingers or a dirty ashtray, and they don't wanna do it anymore, and it's n- easy. There's no struggle. Same thing with heroin addicts. So it has to do with motivation. You can't put that into another person. You know, all you can do is arrange circumstances that maybe it'll happen. So the most important thing is to tell people to set a date to quit, and it doesn't matter if they... how long they stick with it.

Joe Rogan 24:13 But you're saying there's, there's actually some strength to be gained from failed attempts?

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:17 Yes. It's making the attempt that you get credit for.

Joe Rogan 24:19 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:20 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:20 Interesting.

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:22 So the more... Like, say, if you're a drunk and you keep falling off the wagon, if you just keep making these attempts-

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 24:28 No kidding.

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:28 Really.

Joe Rogan 24:29 So there's something ramps up in your mind-

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:31 ... that, that makes it more feasible for you to quit?

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:33 Well, yes, and when it, when it happens, there's no struggle. It's not a, not...

Joe Rogan 24:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:38 It's not an issue. It's just you don't wanna do it anymore.

Joe Rogan 24:40 Now, what do you do when, uh, people come to you and they're on antidepressants?

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:46 Well, I have a book called Spontaneous Happiness, which is about emotional wellness. There's a lot there about antidepressants. First of all, they don't work so well, you know? That it's very hard to-

Joe Rogan 24:54 Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:56 Th- it's hard to distinguish them from placebos.

Joe Rogan 24:58 Different on different people. Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 24:58 You know, the popular ones, the SSRIs.

Joe Rogan 25:00 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:01 And now, because they don't work so well, you know what doctors do?

Joe Rogan 25:04 They add one .

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:04 They add an antipsychotic drug.

Joe Rogan 25:07 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:07 And horrifying, these are, like, for major mental illness. They're not things you just add on to make the antidepressant work better.

Joe Rogan 25:13 We've talked about that one ad nauseam on this podcast-

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:16 (laughs) Well, I won't-

Joe Rogan 25:16 ... uh, because it turned out to be the most prescribed drug in America.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:20 I'm be- uh, that, I can't believe that. That's just astounding.

Joe Rogan 25:22 Well, the, the word is that 25% of women between, uh, 40 and 50 are on antidepressants, and 10% of adults in the, in the country.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:33 (laughs) All right, now here's another thing.

Joe Rogan 25:34 That's a crazy number.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:35 Well, first of all, the p- the pharmaceutical companies have done a great job of convincing people that ordinary states of sadness are problems of brain biochemistry that need to be treated-

Joe Rogan 25:45 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:45 ... with a drug.

Joe Rogan 25:46 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:46 We're not supposed to be happy all the time.

Joe Rogan 25:48 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 25:48 Secondly, there's a big problem with a l- lot of the medications that we use, and antidepressants are a good example. Most of the medications we use are counteractive, you know, they oppose some process in the body.

Joe Rogan 26:01 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:01 So when you do that, the body pushes back against it. That's called homeostasis. You know, an easy example you can relate to is if you have a c- stuffed-up nose, you spray a drug in it that decongests you. Miraculous, right? You can breathe, and depending on which drug you use, two hours, four hours it lasts, but when it wears off, you have rebound congestion that's worse. If you use another dose of the drug then, very easy to slide into-

Joe Rogan 26:25 How dare you, Jamie.

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:27 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:27 Very easy to slide into a state of dependence on it.

Joe Rogan 26:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:30 Same thing happens with many of these drugs. Antidepressants, they raise serotonin levels at neurojunction, neural junctions. So what is the body gonna do if you force an increase in serotonin? It's gonna make less serotonin and drop serotonin receptors. So if you stay on one of these for any length of time, when you get off it, you're gonna be in worse shape than you were to begin with.

Joe Rogan 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:51 And this is... now has a medical name. It's called tardive dysphoria, meaning lingering bad mood due to the drug.

Joe Rogan 26:57 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:57 So the drug actually prolongs or intensifies the depression. You know, may be okay for very short-term use of very severe depression, but these are not things you wanna go on and stay on for lengths of time.

Joe Rogan 27:08 What's fascinating to me is when I talk to people that are o- on them that wanna talk to you like they're on some cancer medication-

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:16 ... or they're on, you know, something that cures polio.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:19 Like, y- th- they, they make it seem like you're insensitive to the possibility that there's other solutions.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:24 Right. And there are many other solutions. We have really good evidence for the antidepressant effect of physical activity.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:31 Both to prevent and treat.

Joe Rogan 27:33 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:33 Uh, we have very good evidence for supplemental fish oil, for omega-3 fatty acids-

Joe Rogan 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:38 ... to prevent and treat.

Joe Rogan 27:39 CBD as well. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:41 All that. And the microbiome looks like it's involved in our mental states as well. So, you know, there's so many different ways of... Yeah, CBD for sure.

Joe Rogan 27:48 So again, go... It gets back to inflammation.

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:50 It c- and it gets back to an, an integrative approach and not just relying on a single thing, like a pharmaceutical treatment.

Joe Rogan 27:57 Yeah, I've talked to intelligent people that are on SSRIs in one form or another, and even ones that have struggled, were on one for a while, then it stopped working, and then they tried another one, then they're combining ones.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:07 And they're on this weird sort of, uh, chemical rollercoaster, and they reject any possible notion that there's other alternatives, especially when you bring up the exercise one.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:18 I bring up the exercise one, they go, "Oh, this fucking meathead and his exercise."

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:22 "Will you just stop?" And I'm like, "I'm telling you."

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:24 Um, w- we did this thing with my friends called Sober October, and what we did is, uh, we, w- no alcohol, no anything for the month of October, but also, we did this fitness challenge. And we got real carried away, and we're all competing against each other with this heart rate app. So we're working out three hours, four hours a day. It was crazy.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:41 But what was interesting about it to me was not just that your body sort of adapts when you force it to work out that many hours-

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:47 ... but that your mood is phenomenal.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:50 I felt so good.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:52 And I was telling everybody, "If you could take what I..." Like, I don't feel that good right now. Like, I, I mean, I feel great, but I don't feel as good as I did during October because I was working out four hours a day.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:02 It was... I- if you could get that in pill form, you would take it every day. If there was no side effects... Because it literally r- removed anxiety, all the internal chatter, all the negative chatter, it was gone. Everything seemed amazing.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:18 True. And there are... Side effects of physical activity are great. You know?

Joe Rogan 29:21 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:21 It revs up immune function, improves digestion, improves sleep.

Joe Rogan 29:24 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:24 All that. You mentioned anxiety. The, the... By far and away, the most effective treatment I found for anxiety is simple, a simple breathing technique.

Joe Rogan 29:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:33 You know, regulating the breath. I've seen this work for the most extreme forms of panic disorder. And the drugs that we use for anxiety are the worst, the benzodiazepines.

Joe Rogan 29:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:42 Highly addictive, mess with your mind.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Yeah. I have a good friend who has, uh, an issue with anxiety medication and he takes it all the time, and when he doesn't take it, apparently it has that rebound effect.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:53 Rebound. Exactly. Right.

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yes. Where he gets horribly anxious.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:56 Well, these are handed out like candy, and nobody warns people how addictive they are. It's a worse addiction than, than opiate addiction.

Joe Rogan 30:04 Xanax?

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:04 Really?

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:05 Yeah. Yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Wow, I did not know that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:07 Harder to get off of than opioids.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Wow!Now, how do you feel about, um, psychedelic interventions when it comes to, um, e- addictions? Like, it seems that-

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:18 (sighs) I-

Joe Rogan 30:18 ... w- we're hearing more and more about that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:20 I know you have a background in that as well.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:22 Well, we're especially hearing about the iboga-

Joe Rogan 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:24 ... and ibogaine.

Joe Rogan 30:25 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:25 This is the African, uh, psychedelic.

Joe Rogan 30:27 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:27 And there are clinics and people using this that claim great success. I don't have firsthand experience. I only know what I've heard and what I've talked to people.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Me too.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:35 Uh, but sounds good, and I think that most of the psychedelics are so non-toxic, uh, so safe, and in the right hands, I think there's m- many possibilities for, you know, good outcomes.

Joe Rogan 30:46 Yeah, they've also had some pretty good results with cigarette cessation, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:50 Mm-hmm, yep.

Joe Rogan 30:50 Um, with, uh, not just iboga, but even with psilocybin.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:53 Yep.

Joe Rogan 30:53 Apparently, um, they had, uh ... They did a study where they show the difference between someone taking psilocybin to try to quit s- smoking cigarettes and some really large number of people, I think it was in the neighborhood of 80%, quit and then over the course of X amount of years, they were still at 60%.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:13 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 31:13 So, only 20% of those people would come back.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:14 That's great.

Joe Rogan 31:15 But, um, with other methods, the, the, the number was much smaller-

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:20 Huh.

Joe Rogan 31:20 ... somewhere in the range of 20 or-

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:21 Huh.

Joe Rogan 31:22 ... 15% after six years.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:23 Huh.

Joe Rogan 31:23 A lot of them just went back to it.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:25 Ha. What do you make of the micro-dosing phenomenon? I mean, this is pretty astounding to see this happening.

Joe Rogan 31:29 Bunch of pussies who're scared to jump all the way in.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:33 (laughs) Just get it all into one big scary dose, man. You know?

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:36 Just why you want to medicate every day? That's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:38 That's kinda how I feel.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:40 Um, no, I'm just joking around. Uh, I think, um, I, I know people who have experienced some s- pretty severe benefits of it, especially people that weren't doing so good health-wise.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:50 And, you know, were just really kind of feeling down and depressed.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:53 And all of a sudden, their outlook radically changed, particularly psilocybin micro-dosing. I know a lot of people-

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:58 Yep.

Joe Rogan 31:58 ... who are doing that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:59 Yeah, same.

Joe Rogan 32:00 I have a lot of hope that Oregon becomes the first state to le-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:04 Sounds like it's close.

Joe Rogan 32:05 ... yeah, to legalize psilocybin.

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:07 That'd, that'd be a big one.

Joe Rogan 32:08 It would be gigantic, and I think, uh, once we realize that no one's dying and a lot of people are getting helped and a lot of, uh, people that are terminal-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:15 ... are having some, uh, r- really a-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:17 Yep.

Joe Rogan 32:17 ... amazing alleviation of anxiety-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:20 ... and, uh, and understanding that it, it's gonna be okay, and just, uh, I think between, uh, friends (snaps fingers) and just the, the, just the w- the camaraderie, it sort of ... when you have these group experiences together-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:35 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 32:35 ... like, there's some incredible benefits to that in terms of, like, reinforcing community and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:40 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:41 ... civilization, the way we feel about each other.

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:43 Now, aside from the psychological and emotional benefits, I think you would be fascinated by some of the things that I've observed and written about of real physical benefits of psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 32:53 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:53 And I'll just tell you a couple.

Joe Rogan 32:54 Please.

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:54 Uh, I ... When I was in my late 20s, I did a lot of experiments, this was in the '70s, with, uh, LSD, mostly with LSD. Um, I had a lifelong allergy to cats. If a cat got near me, my eyes would itch, uh, my nose would run. If a cat licked me, I'd get hives where it licked me, so I always, you know, avoided them and didn't let them touch me. So, I took LSD with a group of friends on a spring day. I was living in Virginia. Fabulous, you know, I was outside running around, having a lot of fun, and in the middle of this, a cat jumped into my lap and I had a moment of, like, trying to defend myself, and then I thought, "This is silly." You know? And I s- relaxed, played with the cat, had no allergic reaction and never did ever after. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:35 What?

Dr. Andrew Weil 33:35 Instant disappearance of an allergy that had been there all my life.

Joe Rogan 33:38 What would be the physiological mechanism for something like that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 33:41 (laughs) Well, the ... Clearly, that's a very profound mind/body interaction. Now, we know that allergies are influenced by that, because you can show a person allergic to roses a plastic rose, and they'll have an allergy. So, there's-

Joe Rogan 33:53 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 33:53 ... so, there's a learned component to allergy that can be unlearned, but have it instantly-

Joe Rogan 33:57 I did not know that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 33:57 Yeah, interesting. Now, all right, this is even more dramatic. Maybe a year later, same thing, it was LSD in the spring. I had also grown up with very fair skin and was told I couldn't get tan, and we used to go down to the Jersey shore. I re- can't remem- I remember innumerable times, you know, gets- getting second-degree burns, sheets of skin peeling off, Noxzema at night, you know, we didn't have sunscreen in those days.

Joe Rogan 34:19 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:20 So, uh, I just accepted that's how I was, you know, I can't get tan. So, again, high on LSD, lying out naked in my great woods in my, uh, home in Virginia, and, uh, the sun was up there and I thought, "This is ridiculous," you know? "I should not be afraid of the sun." The next day I got tan and I have ever since.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:40 Now, that's a little more ... I'm not quite sure the mechanism there, but (laughs) it's pretty amazing.

Joe Rogan 34:44 How long were you outside for though? 'Cause if you're outside-

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:46 I was ... I've n- no, I was-

Joe Rogan 34:47 ... long enough, you're gonna get burnt.

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:48 (sigh) I was out in good time. You know, I woulda-

Joe Rogan 34:50 Like, an hour?

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:50 ... I woulda normally have ... Yeah, at least. I would've had, you know, my usual reaction, but then my skin got tan. It never had in my life.

Joe Rogan 34:56 So, what are you suggesting happened?

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:59 Again, you know, there must be a way in which the nervous system influences melanocytes, which are the, you know, the cell- the pigment cells in the body that can either extend their, uh, you know, projections with pigment granules. So, the nervous system controls that, and the mind connects the nervous system.

Joe Rogan 35:15 But what about someone who's, like, ridiculously fair? Like, what about someone who lives in Scotland or some shit?

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:19 Well, see, what I would do is ... When Dr. Weil's psychedelic clinic opens, I would have, like-

Joe Rogan 35:25 When's it gonna open?

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:26 Well, we'll see, but there'll be an allergy program, right?

Joe Rogan 35:28 Uh-huh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:28 You go in on the first day, uh, you take a full dose of something and you're exposed to the allergen and y- you know, magic happens, and then you come in for 10 sessions with a decreasing dose, and at some point, you're not getting ... you're just getting a placebo and you don't know when that is, and people are trained to lose their allergies. I think you could do the same thing with, uh, sun tanning. Maybe not with people from Scotland because they've got fewer pigment cells-

Joe Rogan 35:51 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:51 ... but, um ... But I wouldn't rule it out. I'll tell you one more.

Joe Rogan 35:55 Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:55 Uh, also from this period. Uh, I told you I was playing with yoga. There was one posture I couldn't do.... uh, the Plow, where you lie on your back-

Joe Rogan 36:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 36:02 ... and try to touch your toes behind your head.

Joe Rogan 36:04 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 36:05 I got to where I could get my toes to a foot from the floor, and I had excruciating pain in my neck. Uh, and I... As much as I tried that, I made no progress. So, I was on the verge of giving up. I thought I was too old. I was 28. So, a- again, on a, in an LSD state, uh, my body was feeling totally elastic. I thought, "Oh, I gotta try that." So, I'm lowering my feet. I thought I had a foot to go, and they touched the ground. I couldn't believe it. I raised it, lowered it. I... Oh, wow. Fantastic. The next day, I tried to do it. I got within a foot of the ground and had excruciating pain in my neck. But now I knew it was possible. Before that, I didn't know it was possible. So, knowing it was possible, I was motivated to keep at it, and in a few weeks, I was able to do it. If I had not had that experience, I would have given up. So, I think this is the magic of these things. They can show you possibilities. They don't necessarily teach you how to s- how to maintain them, but they can show you that things are possible you'd never believe.

Joe Rogan 36:57 Well, it didn't even seem like it was just showing you a possibility. It was actually showing you capability.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:01 Like, you were capable of moving-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:03 ... in a way that you didn't think-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:04 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 37:04 ... you were moving before.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:05 And it was because of your own tension and worry?

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:08 Yeah, probably learned patterns of tension that had built up all my life.

Joe Rogan 37:12 And maybe some, because of the conscious, or the, uh, psychedelic state, rather, there's some alleviation of tension.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:18 Or my mind was out of the way.

Joe Rogan 37:20 Right. Yeah. Hmm. Well, you do, you definitely sense that with marijuana, particularly edible marijuana. You can really get good stretching in with edible marijuana.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:31 Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:31 It's almost like you... Uh, I mean, I, I hate to use certain terms that just, like, trigger people's bullshit alarms, but there's a... You, you can s- you can feel more of the muscle.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:44 You can feel-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:44 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:44 ... more of what, what it's doing.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:46 (clears throat) Right.

Joe Rogan 37:46 Whereas, uh, you know, I'm... I've been involved in, uh, martial arts and athletics most of my life-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:53 Yeah, I know. Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:53 ... so I, I'm, uh, have a good awareness of my body.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:56 But it's way better when I-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:58 ... eat metal, e- edible marijuana.

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:59 Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:00 Like, I feel, I understand. Like, I can practice moves better-

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:04 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 38:04 ... like with certain, like, kicking techniques.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:06 Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:06 I'm better if I'm m- more in tune with how everything's working together. Whereas, uh, sometimes I can do it if I'm sober, but it's, um... (clicks tongue) I'm almost like there's a prophylactic between me and my body.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:19 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:19 There's a numbness-

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:20 ... to it that gets removed by edible marijuana.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:24 One other I'm fascinated by, this was with MDMA. Uh, I was... I lived in a r- ranch outside of Tucson, and I had pathways that had, um, uh, you know, sort of large gravel. And I could not walk on that barefoot. It really hurt my feet. And if I, you know, if I stood in them, you... I'm like, you could see dents in-

Joe Rogan 38:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:41 ... my feet. On MDMA, I was able to, like, dance on those stones, no pain. But the interesting thing is there were no marks on my feet. So, the pain is easy to figure out how that happens.

Joe Rogan 38:51 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:52 But what's happening that, you know, you don't get a dent? I mean, it seems to me, i- if your mind is out of the way, maybe l- little muscles there can... are free to press back with just the amount of force to neutralize the pressure.

Joe Rogan 39:05 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:06 It's like, if your mind is not interfering, I think the body has amazing capabilities.

Joe Rogan 39:11 Well, I definitely think you can mind-fuck yourself, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:13 I mean, you can definitely think, "Ah, oh, God, this is w-..." You can start-

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:16 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:16 ... thinking it's worse than it is.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:18 And if you can relax, a lot... Oftentimes, there's many situations where you relax and things aren't nearly as bad as you are making them out to be.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:26 So, that could be some-

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:29 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:29 I'm with you on everything except the tanning.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:31 The tanning one, I'm like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:32 It happens. It ex- I experienced it.

Joe Rogan 39:34 That's one of those things like Bigfoot. Like, when... You should just keep it to yourself.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:37 Like, if, if you see Bigfoot, you're supposed to just go, "I'm not gonna explain this."

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:41 I'm not gonna keep that to myself-

Joe Rogan 39:42 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:42 ... because I want... You know, when-

Joe Rogan 39:43 Yeah. No, I'm just kidding.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:44 ... when I, when people tell me things that I have no experience of, I'm always willing to entertain the possibility, but then I gotta experience it for myself.

Joe Rogan 39:53 I'm willing to entertain it dependent upon who I'm talking to.

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:56 'Cause there's some kooky people-

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:57 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:57 ... out there, and you will entertain-

Dr. Andrew Weil 39:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:59 ... possibility after possibility-

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:00 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:01 ... until you die and you realize-

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:02 I get it.

Joe Rogan 40:02 ... you were on one big Dr. Seuss book.

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:05 You know? (laughs) Some people are just crazy. You know, we have to accept that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:09 True.

Joe Rogan 40:10 Yeah. There's, there's no doubt about it. But I, I'm, I am absolutely aware that there's some component, there's something about the mind and the way the mind interacts with matter and with life-

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:19 Yep.

Joe Rogan 40:19 ... that has a profound effect on your body, and it would be really nice if we were all better at controlling that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:27 One of the, uh, insights that I've had in psychedelic states is that everything is conscious, that consciousness permeates everything, that, you know, I c- I, I feel what's ever in me, that my consciousness is also in rocks and in plants and in animals.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:44 That there's some universal something out there. And it's... There are two, you know, really different ways of looking at reality. One is the materialist one, which is that consciousness is a product of brain biochemistry and electricity, and that is dominant in science today. The other is that the brain is a receiving apparatus for consciousness, and that consciousness is primary. Uh, maybe existed before matter, maybe organized matter into forms that are more and more able to experience themselves. I don't know. I don't think there's a way to prove one or the other. It's just that, for me, the consciousness as a primary one is more fun and makes life more interesting.

Joe Rogan 41:24 I'm sure you're, uh, familiar with Rupert Sheldrake.

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:26 Oh, yeah. He's a good friend.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Yeah. R- r- very f- very interesting guy. He has a, an idea that everything has memory, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:32 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:33 He believes that, that, uh, uh... This would be, like, the reason, I guess, why some people would not want to live in a haunted house.

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:39 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 41:40 Right? They would think-

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:40 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 41:40 ... that if someone was murdered in a house, that it would retain some s- memory of these atrocities, and that you would somehow or another interact with that if you were in that house. So, like, spaces.

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:52 Like, my dad is not a very, um... He's not a woo-woo kind of guy.

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:57 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:57 But he went to Gettysburg.

Dr. Andrew Weil 41:58 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 41:59 And he was telling me that when he was at Gettysburg, that it just... He felt profound sadness.

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 42:04 He's like, "It just seems like it's just in the ground, like the whole area." He goes, "I don't know how to describe it, but I wanted-"

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:10 Huh.

Joe Rogan 42:10 "... to get the fuck out of there."

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:11 Huh.

Joe Rogan 42:12 Like, just, just being around this area-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:14 Huh.

Joe Rogan 42:14 ... where this battle had taken place-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:16 Huh.

Joe Rogan 42:16 ... and so many people had died. He said he could feel it.

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:19 ... huh.

Joe Rogan 42:19 Yeah, I don't know if I buy the ... I mean, but he's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:21 I-

Joe Rogan 42:21 ... not the kinda guy that would-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:22 No, I, right. But that's an example where you, somebody tells you something that, that's-

Joe Rogan 42:26 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:26 ... his experience.

Joe Rogan 42:27 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:27 I'm willing to entertain it. I have to experience it myself.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Yeah. But it also could be, you know, like, he, um, he got lucky and didn't get drafted during Vietnam-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:37 ... and that's probably in his head that if he did get drafted, he might have died over there, and, uh, w- for what reason. He wouldn't have-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:44 ... experienced this life. He wouldn't have-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:46 ... you know, why, what is the pr- And then, thinking about these young-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:49 ... men that died in the same-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:50 ... fashion for some war that didn't make any sense. Like, why the fuck are they even fighting it? Like, who, who's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:56 ... d- why is, why is this a-

Dr. Andrew Weil 42:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:57 And then, having all these people die together in this one horrible battle in this one place, and he, you know, it could've been-

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:04 ... he was playing a game on his mind.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:05 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 43:06 But ...

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:07 Now Joe, I wanna talk to you about your language. Why the fuck do you swear so much?

Joe Rogan 43:11 I don't know.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:11 Have you read anything about the science of swearing?

Joe Rogan 43:13 (smacks lips) No.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:14 Do you know that there is a science of swearing?

Joe Rogan 43:16 A science?

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:16 Yes, it's pretty interesting stuff.

Joe Rogan 43:18 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:18 So, the part of your brain that produces swear words is not the part of the brain that m- manages ordinary language.

Joe Rogan 43:27 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:27 Really interesting. Uh, you know, we have two language centers in our left frontal cortex.

Joe Rogan 43:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:33 Uh, people that have strokes that damage them often lose language completely, but they can still swear.

Joe Rogan 43:40 Oh. (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:40 So, swearing is coming from somewhere else. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:43 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:43 Uh, it may be coming from the right hemisphere.

Joe Rogan 43:45 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:45 But it's also coming from deeper centers in the brain that connect to the limbic system and the amygdala, and that in- in- connects to the involuntary nervous system. So, here's a couple interesting facts.

Joe Rogan 43:56 Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:56 Uh, swearing is associated with sweating, increased sweating.

Joe Rogan 44:00 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:00 So you should be dripping with sweat. Uh- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:02 I don't swear that much. I'm a comedian. I- I'm sure it's uncomfortable for you.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:06 Okay, second, secondly, also interesting, swearing, uh, in- increases pain tolerance.

Joe Rogan 44:11 Interesting.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:11 And there's an interesting experiment. You know the standard way they do pain tolerance, they have people stick their hand in a bucket of ice and water.

Joe Rogan 44:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:17 And you see how long they can keep it there. The people (slaps hands) who say, "Fuck," "Shit," can keep it there much longer than people who are not allowed to swear.

Joe Rogan 44:26 Mm, what about noises? What if they just go, "Argh!" "Ha!"

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:29 N- No, swearing specifically.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Hmm. So they've tried noises and swearing, and swearing won't-

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:33 Yeah. So it may be, you know, when you, uh, if you're hammering a nail and hit your thumb-

Joe Rogan 44:37 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:38 ... you us- use one of those words, that's a good strategy.

Joe Rogan 44:40 That's interesting because I almost always do that. If I hurt something-

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:43 ... especially a finger.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:44 You know, like I slammed a finger-

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:45 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:45 ... in a car door the other day, and I went, "Motherfucker."

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:49 So that's what that is?

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:49 But that's, yeah, and it's interesting.

Joe Rogan 44:51 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:51 It's coming ... There's a different part of the brain that-

Joe Rogan 44:53 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:53 ... that manages that and has different emotional content.

Joe Rogan 44:56 (smacks lips) Yeah, it flavors language.

Dr. Andrew Weil 44:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:59 I, I like 'em. I'm a big fan of the swears.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:01 I'll leave you some papers about the science of swearing.

Joe Rogan 45:03 It's interesting.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:04 Yeah, it's very interesting.

Joe Rogan 45:05 Now, what if, what would, what would happen if they were no longer taboo? Would the same areas-

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:10 Uh, they'd lose their pow- I think they'd lose their power because-

Joe Rogan 45:12 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:12 ... yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 45:13 The same areas of the brain wouldn't, like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:15 No.

Joe Rogan 45:15 I remember there was an episode of w- I don't remember what television show, but it was, uh, on CBS.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:21 And, uh, they had a line at the end of the show, and essentially, they were saying, "Shit happens."

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:27 And it was a big deal.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:28 I'll bet.

Joe Rogan 45:29 It was a big deal that they wanted to be able to say, "Shit happens."

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:32 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 45:32 And apparently, they pulled this off and they got it through.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:35 And it was like, a 10:00 PM show, so it was okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:37 And it was 11:00 by the time they said shit. And, uh, I remember thinking, like, wow, what a strange sort of like ... How many people were involved in this sort of dance? Like, how many lawyers and executives-

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:49 ... and who ... Like, it's very strange.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:51 Very strange.

Joe Rogan 45:52 That this one word would tr- Everybody knows the word.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:55 It's not even that offensive.

Dr. Andrew Weil 45:56 So it's kind of a, uh, you know, a g- a kinda game we all play.

Joe Rogan 45:59 Yes, yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:00 Right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:00 S- so, but you're saying this game is facilitated by one specific part of the brain, and is-

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:06 So th-

Joe Rogan 46:06 ... that because, like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:08 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 46:08 Swear words are taboo words, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:10 They're taboo words, and often associated with things that we find offensive.

Joe Rogan 46:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:14 Uh, or with bodily acts that freak people out.

Joe Rogan 46:17 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:17 So, but so there's both a, there's a psychological/social aspect to it, but there's also a neurological aspect to it.

Joe Rogan 46:23 Now, when the words, like some, f- some words for some people ... Like, I remember when I was a kid, uh, I lived in Florida for a little bit. And, uh, I said hell once, and, uh, in Florida in the 1970s, hell was a swear.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:39 Like, uh, uh-

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:40 ... I don't know. I mean, I came from New Jersey.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:43 And then I was in San Francisco, and then all of a sudden I was in Florida and I said hell. And they're like, "Don't swear like that in this class." I was like, "Swear?"

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:50 "Who the fuck are you people talking about?" Like, (laughs) it didn't make any sense to me. And then I was like, "You guys have different swears."

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:56 Now, if you had a word that was not taboo to you-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:01 ... would it be ... Would that same area of your brain be-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:06 I don't know. This is p- th- there has not been a lot of research. It hasn't-

Joe Rogan 47:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:09 ... been taken seriously, but that's all interesting questions that should be studied.

Joe Rogan 47:13 Yeah, because it, some ... I mean, if you're a really super conservative person-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:17 ... there's a lot of words that are off the table.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:20 But if you are a far more b- you know, just loose with your language, you could shit this and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 47:26 ... just goddammit, you know, that would be nothing. Like-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:28 ... goddammit would be just like, "Ah, shucks."

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:30 Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:31 Yeah. But to someone, goddammit would be like, a really big deal.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:35 Bad, bad. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Yeah, really big deal.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:37 So, like, what it would different parts of the brain would be activated-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:41 ... by that versus y- if you said it, it would be not that big a deal. But if someone was like, super conservative and they said it-

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:47 Probably even, yeah, more.

Joe Rogan 47:48 Yeah. Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:49 Yeah, interesting.

Joe Rogan 47:50 What do you ... Do you think that that is a universal thing? I mean, it obviously is language wise, right? Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:52 Seems to be, seems to be universal. Seems to be universal. Another finding that I came across is that people who learn a second language, that swearing in the second language does not have the same emotional impact that your first language does.

Joe Rogan 48:04 Oh, that makes sense.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:06 That's why they're so fun. When you learn-

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:07 ... Spanish swears. (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:10 Right. (laughs) It's like you get a free ride. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Yeah. That's, that's interesting. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, and you can do them on television, too.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:18 Right? You can say-

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:19 ... a lot of Spanish swears-

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:20 ... on English-speaking TV-

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:22 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 48:22 ... and everybody just pleads ignorance.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:25 Do you ... So in ... Does every language have-

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 48:28 They all have swears?

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:29 Yes, every language has taboo words, swear words.

Joe Rogan 48:30 Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:31 Yeah, it's universal.

Joe Rogan 48:33 That is really interesting.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:34 B- Asian languages?

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:36 European languages?

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:37 All of them, huh?

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:38 Wow. Huh. So tha- that ... (clears throat) that would, at least to my brain, seem to indicate that there's, like, some use for that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:47 Yes. Well, there are probably many uses. One is this thing of, uh, modulating pain. One is, uh, uh, social bonding.

Joe Rogan 48:54 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:54 You know, forming some community.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Yeah, that's how I kinda use it.

Dr. Andrew Weil 48:57 Yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 48:58 I think... I think when I swear in front of people, I'm testing them out.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:00 Like, "You freaking out if I say fuck?"

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:02 'Cause if you are, I can't talk to you.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:04 Like, "You're too much work."

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:05 You know?

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:06 You know what I mean? (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:07 I know exactly what you mean.

Joe Rogan 49:08 If you're talking to someone and every other word, like, "Well, I w- really wish you wouldn't use that language."

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:11 Well, okay. Y- There's so much work to do here. I can't-

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:14 I know exactly what you mean.

Joe Rogan 49:15 ... can't hold your hand, d- dance through this garden.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:18 Yeah. Th- i- it's, um, it's to me, also, like, I hang around with a lot of people that swear a lot.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:25 'Cause I hang around with professional comedians and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:28 ... fighters, and there's a lot of, uh, uh, swashbuckling, free-wheeling type of individuals involved in those pursuits, and ...

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:37 Now, there seems to ... There's some study suggesting that swearing is becoming more frequent in our society and more public.

Joe Rogan 49:43 Do you think it's because of the internet?

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:44 I don't know. It's a trend. I'm not sure anybody knows why.

Joe Rogan 49:46 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:46 But, I mean, n- nobody would've been, you know, on the air like you are 20 years ago.

Joe Rogan 49:51 That's true.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Well, that is specifically because of the internet, 'cause of the lack of regulation.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:55 Right, exactly. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:56 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 49:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:57 But even that, it's like it's, it's resisted in a lot of ways. Like, people are trying to figure out how to modulate this and how to handle it, and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:03 They'll never handle it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:04 No, it seems like the genie's out of the bottle, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:06 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:07 Yeah. Um, I think ultimately you find what you enjoy, and the best way to find with you ... what you enjoy is people actually doing what they wanna do and then you figure it out.

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:16 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah, I mean, that seems to be what's happening in the world of the internet and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:20 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 50:20 ... podcasting and stuff like that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:21 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 50:23 I mean, it's also the, y- y- the access, right? Like, a person like you, you could just put together a podcast, and, uh, if people find it interesting, if it resonates, you could get 100,000 downloads-

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:35 ... o- out of nowhere. Like, 100,000 ... If, if you have a radio show, 100,000 people listening, so that's a lot of damn people.

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:41 They'd be excited.

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:42 They're like, "Hey, Andrew, we got the, uh, monthlies in and you're doing great."

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:46 "You got 100,000 people a day." They'd be like, "Holy shit, this is a-

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:49 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 50:49 ... successful business." But you could be doing that just from your office.

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:53 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 50:53 Just put together, uh, z- uh, with a laptop and a microphone and no distribution whatsoever in terms of-

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:58 ... like, no, uh, s- string of executives and gigantic corporation behind you. You don't have a- all that.

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:04 And nobody telling you what you can say and can't say.

Joe Rogan 51:06 Yes. Yeah. Well, that's one thing you get outta today that you never got out of before. And, you know, this is ... I've been involved in show business for many years, but only this kinda stuff for nine-

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:18 ... uh, b- from doing this podcast. And what I've seen with this is, like, what's unusual, and wh- I think what resonates with people, is that there isn't anybody else. There's no group of people that's saying, "Andrew, uh, could you stop saying this?" Or, "Let's, let's concentrate on that."

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:35 "And, uh, th- the polls are showing that people like this." And, you know, you have a- a b- breaks in between while the commercials are playing. They come to you with notes and they tell you the ... All that stuff just seems-

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:45 ... to somehow or another ruin this natural interaction that we have-

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:49 ... with each other.

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:50 Yeah. Now, for a guy like you, the internet is ... I would think that with some of your more controversial ideas, like, this is the way you can really air them out in long form. Because if you ... L- like, a lotta doctors, they don't want to open their mind to anything outside of what they're, what they're practicing.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:09 I've, I've noticed.

Joe Rogan 52:10 Yeah. I mean, so it's gotta be rough for you, right?

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:11 But I've never censored what I say. I've always put it all out there.

Joe Rogan 52:15 Good for you.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 I-

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:16 I've done that all my life.

Joe Rogan 52:17 But do you ... don't you find that it's more, uh, uh, n- not just accepted but, uh, p- people are more interested in it now because of the internet?

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:26 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:28 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 52:29 I mean, 'cause I've heard about you for many, many years. But w- it's s- sort of ramped up-

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 ... over the last, you know, decade or so.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:35 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:37 Yeah, because of the internet.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:39 Right? Because people have this ...

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:40 But, you know, I've been ar- it's, it's f- funny. When I look at this stuff, like, you know, all the stuff about pot, and it's like-

Joe Rogan 52:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:45 ... they'll like placebos. I was saying this stuff in the 1970s, you know?

Joe Rogan 52:49 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:49 My first book, The Natural Mind, was published in s- 1972. It argued that everybody has an innate drive to alter their consciousness.

Joe Rogan 52:57 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:57 And that, you know, drugs are one way of doing it. Uh, I did the first human experiments with pot that were ever done with, uh ... under double-blind conditions.

Joe Rogan 53:05 What experiments did you do?

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:06 I gave marijuana to people in a laboratory in 19, uh, 68.

Joe Rogan 53:10 And what'd you test them for?

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:11 Well, we were just seeing if ... People bet me you couldn't do it, and nobody had ever done this. You know, the, uh ... All this marijuana was becoming such a big thing, and nobody ... There were n- no experiments.

Joe Rogan 53:21 Like, what, what, what kind of experiments? Like, what were you experimenting-

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:23 I took, like, um, the most basic stuff. I just wanted to show that you could give it to human subjects in a lab and get away with it, 'cause people thought you couldn't.

Joe Rogan 53:30 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:30 You know?

Joe Rogan 53:30 You mean in terms of the FTC?

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:32 Y- uh, in terms of law, lawsuits, everything.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:34 You know, one of the things, I wanted to give it to people that never had it before to s- so there'd be no expectations. Everyone said, "This is terrible. You know, they're gonna turn into heroin addicts from giving them-"

Joe Rogan 53:43 Mm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:43 "... stuff like that." Anyway, I just wanted to see basic stuff, like does it dilate the pupils of the eyes? Because cops were busting people. You know, they'd say, "Their eyes are dilated."

Joe Rogan 53:52 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:53 "Must be high on marijuana," and they'd search. But marijuana doesn't ... I s- we showed doesn't dilate the pupils of the eyes. I took ... ch- ta- tested blood sugar, 'cause people said the reason people get hungry is because blood sugar drops. Has no effect on blood sugar. Uh, we showed that, uh, you know, people ...... who had never had marijuana before in a lab, uh, w- you could show slight decreases in performance, in motor function and cognitive function. But people who were regular users of it, you couldn't show that.

Joe Rogan 54:22 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:22 That they had adapted to it.

Joe Rogan 54:23 Yeah, my take on that is that I think the people that are not regular users are freaking out.

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:28 Uh, and because they're n- they're nervous, and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:30 It's novel sensations-

Joe Rogan 54:31 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:31 ... and they don't know what to do with it.

Joe Rogan 54:32 Yeah, and they just don't, they don't know how to relax.

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:36 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the big one to me with, uh, with physical movement.

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:40 'Cause they, they wanna, you know, test drivers and all sorts of-

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:43 ... other things for marijuana. I'm like, "This is not alcohol."

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:46 No.

Joe Rogan 54:46 "You're talking about a completely different thing."

Dr. Andrew Weil 54:48 If I had a choice of being a passenger with these drivers, I'll tell you which one I would ch- take. A person who had never used marijuana, had just smoked, uh, a person who was a user of marijuana and had just smoked, but had never driven high, a person who was a user, regular user of marijuana and had practiced driving high, and a person any amount of alcohol in their system, I'd take the third as the best bet.

Joe Rogan 55:11 Yes, the third's the best bet.

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:12 Yeah, that guy's a wizard, I bet.

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:14 I bet that guy drives high every day. (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:16 Yeah, so he's used to it. Not gonna show any effect on his performance.

Joe Rogan 55:19 Yeah, it's, the experience is a novel experience.

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:21 And that, the, if you're accustomed to it, then it's just like, "Here we go, this is my normal world."

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:27 And for many people, you have to learn to get high.

Joe Rogan 55:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:29 You have to learn to associate the subtle physical cues with the altered state. That's a common thing. People feel nothing the first time they try it.

Joe Rogan 55:37 Yeah, you do hear that, right? But I don't think they know what the fuck they're talking about.

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:40 Like, "Bro, you're high as fuck."

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:42 Now, (laughs) when you, uh, when you did these experiments, what, did you have to clear these with the FDA? Did you-

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:49 Oh, you would, you would not believe, I'd-

Joe Rogan 55:51 What'd you have to do?

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:52 I had to get permission from the FDA, which said th- that I couldn't do it unless I first got permission from, it was the old Federal Bureau of Narcotics, which was the Treasury guys.

Joe Rogan 56:00 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:00 The Federal Bureau of Narcotics said, "We'll give you permission once the FDA gives you permission." So, they played-

Joe Rogan 56:05 Oh, okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:05 ... that off. Then I had to get permission from the State of Massachusetts, from two agencies there. And there were two universities involved, Harvard University and Boston University. So coordinating all this stuff was unbelievable. And then once the, all the approvals came in, I had to get the pot, and there was no legal source of it. So I, I, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics gave me confiscated pot that they had confiscated-

Joe Rogan 56:26 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:26 ... in some case in Texas. They brought it over, but they had delayed us so long, I didn't even know if I had time to do the experiments, 'cause I was gonna graduate. Anyway, they brought this stuff on a Friday afternoon. It was shit. I mean, it was brown, dry. It looked like it had been sitting in a warehouse for years.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:41 So the first thing I did was roll up a joint and smoke it, and no effect whatever. I called the, the agent that I dealt with and I said, "This stuff is no good." And he said, "How do you know? You haven't had time to run any experiments." And I said, "I looked at it under the microscope and there was no resin on it." So they grumbled and they gave me other stuff which was passable. Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:57 So it, but again, confiscated stuff.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:01 Because we always used to hear, when we were kids, about government weed.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:04 The government weed was the good weed. Do you remember that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:08 Well, that was later.

Joe Rogan 57:08 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:08 That was later when the-

Joe Rogan 57:09 Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:09 ... when, when research got going and the, uh, US, the government started a pot farm in Mississippi-

Joe Rogan 57:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:14 ... to provide pot for research, which was much better.

Joe Rogan 57:17 And there was only a handful of people that were under these experiments, correct?

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:21 It was so, it, it, they made it so difficult-

Joe Rogan 57:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:24 ... to conduct research, as they have with psychedelics. Now, that's slowly changing now.

Joe Rogan 57:28 Yeah, well, um, you know Rick Strassman?

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:31 Sure.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Yeah, when he was doing that book, uh, DMT-

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:34 ... The Spirit Molecule, and he did all those tests with those people, that was really groundbreaking stuff.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Because, you know, doing it out of the University of New Mexico and doing it-

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:42 ... under clinical conditions, they were able to document the similarities between all these people's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:46 ... psychedelic experiences, and do this with g- government approval.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:50 Which I thought was really fascinating.

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:51 Fascinating.

Joe Rogan 57:52 Yeah, and the fact that they did it and w-... the information's out, and then there's been, like, very little movement in that direction. It's kinda just like, "Okay, now we know. But look, everybody's fine."

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:04 "There's a lot of benefit. Do, do we wanna act on this?"

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:07 Like, you know, it takes decades.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:09 Right, and, and-

Joe Rogan 58:10 It takes forever.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:10 ... and plus, what research was done all along, it was primarily to look for negative effects.

Joe Rogan 58:16 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:17 You know, no-

Joe Rogan 58:17 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:17 ... nobody who wanted to look for positive effects got permission and funding.

Joe Rogan 58:21 That's interesting. So you have to kind of frame the proposal in a way-

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:25 ... that like, "We're, these kids are fucking themselves up."

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:27 "We're gonna prove it, sir." (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:29 (laughs) So that's changing. But you know, the big stumbling block now, we gotta get, uh, cannabis out of that federal Schedule I.

Joe Rogan 58:35 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:35 That's, like, causing a lot of problems.

Joe Rogan 58:38 Yeah, there's been some noise about, uh, decriminaling, decriminalizing it federally, which is, like, step one, I guess, to-

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:45 That's the big stumbling block.

Joe Rogan 58:46 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:46 I'll give you one e- one example. I'm, um, involved with a, uh, a group called Maui Wellness Group. I'm the chief science officer.

Joe Rogan 58:53 Maui, Hawaii?

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:54 M- yeah. We got the first dispensary license and growing operation over there.

Joe Rogan 58:58 Oh, nice.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:58 It's very good, it's a very good outfit.

Joe Rogan 59:00 Is it legal in Hawaii? How does it work?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:01 For, for medical.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Medical.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:02 Not, not for recreational.

Joe Rogan 59:03 Like, how sick you have to be?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:05 You know, it's okay. The way they're-

Joe Rogan 59:07 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:07 ... you know, allowing it. But there's, there's specified conditions. Hawaii's m- more, not, is more uptight than a lot of other states-

Joe Rogan 59:13 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:13 ... but it's happening. But, uh, our license is for Maui County, which includes Maui, Molokai, and Lanai. So people from Molokai and Lanai can come to Maui to buy product in our dispensary, but they can't take it back, because the waters between the island are federal. So they-

Joe Rogan 59:29 What if they throw it?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:30 (laughs) It still has to cross the water.

Joe Rogan 59:32 Oh, it's no good.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:33 But that's ridiculous. You know, that's the kind of-

Joe Rogan 59:34 The waters are federal. That's hilarious.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:35 That's the kind of, that's the kind of ridiculous situation there is now.

Joe Rogan 59:37 So better to be on Maui and not-

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:40 Better to be on Maui.

Joe Rogan 59:40 ... go to Lanai.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:41 You gotta go to Maui to get high.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:42 That's great. What if you're really sick? Like, what if you have cancer or something like that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:46 Well, I-

Joe Rogan 59:46 And you live on Lanai?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:47 Yeah, well...

Joe Rogan 59:48 You gotta violate the law.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:49 Yeah, we have to violate the law.

Joe Rogan 59:49 But if you have it in Lanai, you're okay. So can you grow it?

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:53 Uh, no. You can only grow it if you have a license, and the only license is for Maui.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Jesus Christ.

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:59 Yeah, we gotta change this.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 California was really ridiculous when they were doing medical. Like, you could just basically go in there and go like, "I can't sleep."

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 And they go, "Okay."

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 (laughs) There was nothing. Like, I had friends that had, like, long, elaborate excuses they had planned out, like, "You know, I was-"

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 "... I was in a car accident when I was six, and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 ... when I go to bed at night, I have these horrible dreams. The only thing that helps me is marijuana. And I'm just trying to feed my family." And then they would go, "Stop, stop, stop." "Yeah, okay. I'll write you a script."... they just give it to you. Like, there was no resistance. Like if you-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:28 Ah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 ... my joke was that if you can't get a license for marijuana, you should probably go to a hospital-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 ... immediately. 'Cause you got a real problem.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 They're like, "No, man, you need actual doctors."

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:38 I'll tell you a story. This, this is something that bothers me though. I'm not, I'm not a user of pot now. I was heavily in my earlier life. A friend of mine, a doctor colleagues, uh, in San Francisco sent me some samples of stuff that had come from a medical dispensary in San Francisco, and he wanted me to try them. So one of them was a co- some concentrated oil. It came in a, a little syringe, and it, and had a very elaborate, nicely printed brochure with it that described the use of this for pain. And it said you should start with an amount the size of half a grain of rice. Uh, take it at orally. So-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 What?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:12 Yeah, my friend said take it at bedtime. So this is a teeny amount, and actually I probably took somewhat less because I was afraid of getting too high on it.

Joe Rogan 1:01:18 Good for you.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:18 So I took it at bedtime, went to sleep, woke up about an hour later in full-blown delirium. I mean visual hallucinations-

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 Zzz, zzz, zzz. (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:27 ... as strong as I've had on LSD. I couldn't get out of bed. I was, uh, you know, I was immobile.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:31 I had burning thirst, I couldn't get up to get a glass of water.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:34 I had a friend staying in a guest house, I couldn't call for help.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:38 I laid there, and it kept increasing. It kept-

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:41 ... you know, over four hours it got stronger and stronger, and I, when is it gonna end?

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Mmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:45 Anyway, it lasted 12 hours.

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:47 And, uh, for about 24 hours after, my equilibrium was really off.

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:52 And this stuff is being s- I mean, you know, this, and it said, it said-

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 Ah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:56 ... the directions said, "Start with this amount and work up from there."

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 That's hilarious.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:00 And there's people, I'm thinking there's people, you know, driving on the streets.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:04 This stuff is out there. That scares me.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Yeah, there's people that'll squirt that whole thing in their gullet.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:08 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:11 I'm sure you know some.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 Yeah, I know a lot of them.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 Yeah. It's, uh, the edible world is a weird world because of the, the, the re- the response of the body is so much different than the smoking it just gives you.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:21 It's a different drug.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 Yeah. 'Cause of pure psychedelics.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:23 And a lot of people are fooled by th- you know, the long length of time it takes.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:26 So, you know, it's like lighting the firework and the fuse is down.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:29 And you go back and try to light it again, and you know.

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 I'm sure you've heard the recording of the police officers who stole the pot from the kids and then ate it and then called 911 on themselves.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:40 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 You never heard it?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:41 No.

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 Oh, it's wonderful.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:42 I won't though.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 I won't play it again because we've played it too many times on this podcast.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:45 Okay, I'll look it up.

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 But these poor cops, they, they, they ate pot brownies-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 ... and they're calling 911. They're like, "I think, I think we're dying. Time's moving real slowly. I think we're dead." (laughs) It's so stupid.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 It's so stupid, you re- it's like, it's, it's good for kids to hear because you realize like, oh, cops are just people. Oh, all right. Okay.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 It just, it sounds like my brother, if my brother got high, you know? It's just crazy people that get high. But it, the, the effect of the edible, uh, can be pretty, pretty fucking profound.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 And this area in particular.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:15 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Like Hollywood has some preposterous THC level edibles.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:20 I can imagine, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 I mean, they, they're, they're under different regulations now-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 ... that it's legal statewide instead of just medical.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:26 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 But when it was medical only, you could get these insane concoctions.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:32 Oh. Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:32 Stars of Death. You ever heard of a Star of Death?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:34 Oh, no. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 Well-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:34 No, I have not heard of Star of Death.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 ... gotta hang out with Joey Diaz.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:36 (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 He'll hit you with a Star of Death. What is those Stars of Death, like 1200 milligrams?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:40 I think they range anywhere from like 200 to f- 300, 400 each.

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:45 Each little star, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 Yeah. Each little star is hundreds of milligrams and Joey would eat like three or four of them.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:49 Each little star is hundreds of milligrams and Joey would eat like three or four of them.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 Eight, I don't know. Once. Yeah. He just, would just throw them down. He's a, he's got an insane tolerance.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Yeah, he's just one of those guys.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:57 Well, you know, uh, given all this stuff, however, I, I am delighted to see our society finally coming to better terms with this plant.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 Yes. Me too.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:05 Uh, cannabis, you know, the, the, the word cannabis is the same word as canvas.

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:11 Uh, all canvas sails and rope used to be made from hemp.

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:14 Uh, the... And the species name sativa means useful. It's the useful hemp. It's really useful. You know, this is one plant that ha- provides an edible seed, an edible oil, a, a high-quality fiber, a medicine, and an intoxicant. That's a lot of ways for a plant to be useful. Uh, we have been very stupid in our relationship with that plant.

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:34 The, uh, cannabis, it's, it's the equivalent of the dog in the plant world.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:39 Dogs long ago made a decision to co-evolve with us. They threw their evolutionary lot in with humans. Cannabis did the same thing. You can't unravel the early botanical history of cannabis 'cause as far back in history as you, we go, it's always associated with human settlements.

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:55 So that plant wants nothing other than to be with us and to serve us. And we have been so stupid. We've let a billion-dollar inter- industry in hemp textiles go to China. We've let a million-dollar industry in edible hemp products go to Canada. Uh, and we have ignored its potential for medicine.

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 Well, I'm really hoping that things are gonna change in terms of-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:15 They will.

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 ... our cultivation of hemp. Um, you know, I'm one of the owners of Onnit and we sell hemp protein. And one of the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:22 Great, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 ... we used to get our hemp protein from Canada.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:25 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 We used to have to get it from Canada.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 And we... And then sell it in America.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:28 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 We couldn't grow it here.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:29 Stupid. Well, that's gonna change.

Joe Rogan 1:05:31 Yeah. I'm so hopeful-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:33 It's gonna change.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 ... that it does change. It is, um, it's fascinating also how well the propaganda worked against it and how long, even in defiance of all the facts.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:44 Now, I have to tell you, when I did those pot experiments in 1968, uh, I predicted that pot was gonna be legal in five years.

Joe Rogan 1:05:51 (laughs)

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:52 But boy was I wrong. (laughs) I mean, I, all I thought, I thought it was just a matter of getting the truthful-

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:56 ... information out there. Well, it wasn't.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:58 You know, people believe what they wanna believe and they don't believe what they don't wanna believe, and it's rude. It's totally irrational.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Well, it's also an, a really excellent example of the contradictions in our society.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:09 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 And the, the, the difference between something that's accurate and something that's perceived.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:14 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 And we have this perception of marijuana, and you-And sometimes they have perceptions based on experiences, like you might meet some-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 ... really lazy, fucked up people-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 ... who smoke pot all the time, and you go, "Oh, this is what pot does to you."

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:26 A- also, it was the associations of pot because the-

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:29 ... in back then, you know, in the '50s, '60s, it was associated with Mexican migrant workers-

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:35 ... with, uh, Black jazz musicians in the South, and then with radicals and hippies, so-

Joe Rogan 1:06:40 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:40 ... all scary people to mainstream, (book thumps) you know, middle class-

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:44 ... white society.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 And of ca- course, all accentuated by William Randolph Hearst, and Harry-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:49 ... Anslinger-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 ... and the Reefer Madness films.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:51 Yup.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 (coughs) Those are great.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:52 They're great.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 Anybody hasn't seen those?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 Oh, they are ... It's amazing how something that was terrifying to someone back then is so silly today.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:00 (laughs) True.

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 When you watch Reefer Madness today, it's really funny.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:04 And at the same time, we're living with the two m- most dangerous drugs that are out there-

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:09 ... with alcohol and tobacco.

Joe Rogan 1:07:10 Well, how about fentanyl?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:11 Right, sure. Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 That one, that one scares the shit outta me.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:13 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 They just keep ramping that one up-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 ... and making it more and more potent.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 It just ... The idea that o- opioids weren't killing people quick enough, that we needed to make some ridiculously potent versions of it. And apparently, now, there's, they're p- approving something that's even more powerful than fentanyl.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:28 Yeah, I've read that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 Like what? Why would you do that?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:30 (sighs) But, you know, on a physiological level, opioids are not that bad for your body. Y- the worst effect of being addicted to an opioid over time is chronic constipation. I mean, that's