Joe Rogan Experience #1228 - Bari Weiss

Joe Rogan 0:02 Four, three, two, one. (hand slaps) Hello, Bari.

Bari Weiss 0:08 Hi, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:09 And now we're live. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it.

Bari Weiss 0:11 Thanks for having me.

Joe Rogan 0:12 It's, uh, very fortuitous. Your timing comes right in the middle of this big hubbub about, um, this, uh, Native American elder and this young boy with one of those stupid fucking red hats on.

Bari Weiss 0:25 Yep.

Joe Rogan 0:26 That... Y- y- would you have ever imagined that a slogan like "Make America Great Again" would be so divisive? That somehow or another, like, that-

Bari Weiss 0:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:34 That would be... Like, "Make America Great Again." Well sounds like they just wanna make things great, like-

Bari Weiss 0:38 No.

Joe Rogan 0:38 ... all positive. (laughs)

Bari Weiss 0:40 No.

Joe Rogan 0:40 You know?

Bari Weiss 0:40 No.

Joe Rogan 0:40 And a red hat with white letters. Has there ever been a time like that where a- a- an object, like a red hat with white letters, was so repulsive to half the country?

Bari Weiss 0:50 Yes. Well, I mean, some people see it as the equivalent of a white hood.

Joe Rogan 0:56 Wow. I don't know about that. I think that's-

Bari Weiss 0:58 They do. No.

Joe Rogan 0:59 I- I- I believe they do.

Bari Weiss 1:00 They do. They believe-

Joe Rogan 1:01 I believe they do, but I think they're being ridiculous.

Bari Weiss 1:01 ... that wearing it at... Wearing it... That a 16-year-old wearing that hat-

Joe Rogan 1:05 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:05 ... sort of carries intense moral weight. That surely we know that a 16-year-old is not aware of all of the implications of wearing that hat.

Joe Rogan 1:13 Well yeah, but the problem with that is Kanye wears it.

Bari Weiss 1:15 Right. Fair enough.

Joe Rogan 1:16 So, it doesn't really work.

Bari Weiss 1:17 I agree. I'm just saying-

Joe Rogan 1:18 You know?

Bari Weiss 1:18 ... there are people who really make that argument.

Joe Rogan 1:21 I get it. I know they do.

Bari Weiss 1:22 And people who are paid for their opinions. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:24 Well, yeah. Well, there's also people that are calling for this child's name and address. They're calling to dox him and publicly expose him. This is a child. He's 16? Is that what he is?

Bari Weiss 1:34 He's 16 years old. And, uh, e- it... One of the things that was just so amazing about the whole brouhaha around it... I mean, it was in a way like this perfect encapsulation of our outrage culture, right? Because people saw a tiny clip of this video.

Joe Rogan 1:50 Yes.

Bari Weiss 1:51 And it was like a Rorschach test.

Joe Rogan 1:52 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 1:52 You saw in it this morality play of, what- what it looked to be was a group of mostly white kids from Coventry Catholic School, I think it's in Kentucky. And it looked like, at first glance, that they were smirking and smug and had these sort of shit-eating grins on their faces and that they were surrounding this older Native American man. And I have to tell you, I had a visceral reaction to it the second I saw it, like so many other people.

Joe Rogan 2:19 I did as well.

Bari Weiss 2:19 I was like, "This is, you know, where we are in our broken culture, and they're bullying this guy, and here's the rise of the r-" I had all of those reactions. The challenge of what it means to be a journalist is to not see people as signifiers or as stand-ins just based on their identity. And that's what like 94 pers- 95% of the press corps did. They sort of leapt to... They leaped to assume that, you know, w- our visceral reaction was accurate, when in fact, when you actually looked at, like, the two-hour video of the whole interaction, which also included this group of black Israelites, or Hebrew Israelites they call themselves, it was not that at all. The- the Native American man had walked up to this group. The four other guys had been heckling the group beforehand, calling them crackers, calling them Satan, calling the one black kid in the group things that can't even be said. So it was just far more complicated. Um, and what- what was really, really disheartening is that the out- the initial outrage was enough for the mainstream press to report on it. Like, Twitter has kind of become almost an assigning editor for places like The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal. And then, when the actual truth of the thing comes out, when we move past the outrage cycle, they have to sort of write the follow-up story to the fake outrage to begin with. Um...

Joe Rogan 3:47 Defending the fake outrage instead of backing up and saying, "We made a mistake." This- this kid-

Bari Weiss 3:52 Right. Well some, some people said that they made a mistake.

Joe Rogan 3:54 That's wonderful. Oh, that's a good sign.

Bari Weiss 3:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:56 It really is.

Bari Weiss 3:57 But one of the things that was so horrifying was that people that are supposed to be adults, you know, people with blue check marks on Twitter, were saying things like, "This is the face of white patriarchy," the 16-year-old kid.

Joe Rogan 4:11 Or what Raise Aslan said.

Bari Weiss 4:13 This... Yeah. Or Raise Aslan said-

Joe Rogan 4:14 "This is... Have you ever seen more?" Yeah.

Bari Weiss 4:14 "Have you ever seen a more punchable face?" Kathy Griffin was saying, "I need names. Shame him. Dox him." How do these people not understand the implications of that? So what happened over the weekend was that the, you know, sleuthy detectives on Twitter found a kid who they thought was the kid in the video, wasn't actually the kid. So there's the actual kid who was doxed, the family was harassed, everything that we now know happens in these outrage cycles. But then there was another kid who looked suspiciously like him who was not him at all, whose family... There's an amazing and heartbreaking Twitter thread about it. Whose family was in the middle of a family wedding and they had to spend their whole weekend fighting off these mobs who were trying to destroy them. And it wasn't even the kid in the video. I mean, that is really horrifying to me, that that's where we are. And the fact that adults who should know better are fomenting this and don't see how thin, like the ven- like s- (laughs) it sounds heavy, but like the veneer of civilization is. Like they're taking a pickax to it. It's just... I- I just found the whole thing to be terrifying. I don't know how you felt.

Joe Rogan 5:26 I felt exactly the same way. Uh, I think it's a very unique moment because it's so public and it's so... it's so prevalent. And wh- whether it's Twitter or Facebook, it's everywhere. And it sort of embodies everything that's wrong with a lack of nuance and with people taking one side versus the other and sticking with it, with not confronting their own personal biases, with looking at these things through the, uh, eyes of, "This is the enemy. I'm on the good side, they're on the bad side."

Bari Weiss 5:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:58 "Let's get them." And also, this- th- this distorted idea of what it takes to...... what it takes to be violent, like this idea of this is a punchable person, like calling for violence. You, you, you're hearing a lot of this. Like, this is one of the things that troubles me so much about the left. My par- my parents were hippies. Um, you know, I grew up, when I was a little kid, we lived from age of 7 to 11 in San Francisco during the Vietnam War. While the Vietnam War was ending, I was living in the middle of the hippie world. I always felt that people on the left were like these well-read, kind, compassionate people. But somewhere along the line, within the last few years, people on the left are calling for violence. This is very, this is very confusing to me, and it's, it's this frivolous social media call for violence. It's not an in-person, be there, boots on the ground call for... It's a very strange call for violence. "Punch Nazis." I'm hearing this all the time.

Bari Weiss 7:02 Because it's-

Joe Rogan 7:03 Right, but-

Bari Weiss 7:03 ... because it's... Sorry, go ahead.

Joe Rogan 7:05 What I'm gonna say is, what is a Nazi? Okay, so if you mean punch actual Nazis that are putting Jews into concentration camps, I'm with you. But when you call a guy with a MAGA hat on, he wears one of those red hats and he's just an asshole, he, he's a Nazi now? Some guy who maybe is not that educated-

Bari Weiss 7:23 (laughs) But we're, but-

Joe Rogan 7:24 ... wants to be a contrarian, sees all these liberals that are complaining all the time, so he puts this red hat on, and now he's a white supremacist and a Nazi, and you want to punch him? Like, okay, this-

Bari Weiss 7:34 But that's what a lot of people in very high positions of power in this country, at least in the culture, actually believe. And they don't understand the implications of hollowing out words like that.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Yes.

Bari Weiss 7:46 I know this personally, right? 'Cause I'm called alt-right, um, I'm called an apologist for rape culture. I've been called everything. I'm a centrist, okay? I'm (laughs) I'm a Jewish, center-left on most things, person who lives on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and, you know, is super socially liberal, liberal on pretty much any issue you want to choose. If I'm alt-right, what d- what words do we have left for people that actually are that?

Joe Rogan 8:14 Exactly.

Bari Weiss 8:14 What words do we have left for people who actually are part of a sort of racist blood and soil nativism that's rising in this country and around the world, that should terrify people that are using that language in the sloppiest of ways?

Joe Rogan 8:28 Yes.

Bari Weiss 8:29 I really don't think they're seeing the implications of it. I also think that when, when you're just, you know, you're a keyboard warrior and you're just tossing this stuff out, so much of it is about signaling to your tribe that you know that this thing is bad.

Joe Rogan 8:44 Yes.

Bari Weiss 8:45 And I really don't think people are understanding the implications of this. And I don't think it's a stretch to imagine something like this happening a week, two weeks, a month, two months from now, and someone actually getting killed.

Joe Rogan 8:59 Right. Like Charlottesville. I mean, very, very similar to what happened there. This, this, this kind of... I mean, when that guy drove over those protesters, the ramping up of the dialogue on both sides, the rhetoric, the violent talk, it's so disturbing and so unnecessary, especially when it's disingenuous, like calling someone like you alt-right. Or me. I, I get called alt-right adjacent. That's what I... I hear that one all the time.

Bari Weiss 9:23 Me too. Me too.

Joe Rogan 9:24 I, I go left on everything, basically except guns. Th- There's a few things that I-

Bari Weiss 9:28 Right. And I'm like, "Repeal the Second Amendment." (laughs) Right. But like-

Joe Rogan 9:31 Yeah. I mean, but I, I do think that there should be some restrictions for gun use, just like I think there should be restrictions for car use. I actually think there should be testing for guns and you should have to go... Look, you have to go through a fucking... You have to take driver's ed to get a car license.

Bari Weiss 9:47 Of course.

Joe Rogan 9:47 How come you don't have to do any... You know, you don't have to do anything to get a gun. Like, you... Once... If you're not a criminal, you just get a gun. Like, you don't have to know how to take care of it and clean it and sa- safely handle it. You don't have to know the ethics of use. You don't have to know anything.

Bari Weiss 10:01 I know. It's insane.

Joe Rogan 10:02 It's weird.

Bari Weiss 10:02 I mean, and I just spent six weeks in Australia, where (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 10:06 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 10:06 ... they had basically one major massacre 20 years ago, and then, uh... I forget who it was. We could look it up. But, you know, Prime Minister, Conservative, got rid of guns.

Joe Rogan 10:15 Yes.

Bari Weiss 10:16 Everywhere in the country.

Joe Rogan 10:16 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 10:16 They, they think we're insane and psychotic the way that we live.

Joe Rogan 10:19 Well, we're definitely weird. Um-

Bari Weiss 10:21 The thing also... One other thing that, that st- jumped out to me about the, the Catholic school boy incident, it kind of signifies something broader that's happening, which is the erasure of the individual, which is just, I think, a horrifying problem in our culture. Like, what actually happened was a one-hour incident on a random afternoon in January between a group of individuals, right? But instead, in our mind-

Joe Rogan 10:49 Why, why was everyone there? Th- There was... This is the March for Life?

Bari Weiss 10:52 Well, the, the boys were there for the March for Life.

Joe Rogan 10:54 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 10:54 Um, I don't know why the Hebrew Israelites were there, but it's DC. Like, there are crazy protesters-

Joe Rogan 11:00 Right.

Bari Weiss 11:00 ... all the time, you know?

Joe Rogan 11:02 Right.

Bari Weiss 11:02 At the Lincoln Memorial and outside of the White House.

Joe Rogan 11:03 And the boys were there for a school event? Is that what it was?

Bari Weiss 11:05 They were there for the March for Life as part of their school, and they had like been... Had free time, I think, and then were sort of converging at the Lincoln Memorial.

Joe Rogan 11:14 And they didn't have a chaperone? There's no-

Bari Weiss 11:16 No, I think the teachers... Uh, there was a teacher there, and they had asked the teacher at one point, in order to drown out the heckling of the Hebrew Israelites, I hope I'm getting the name of that group right, "Could we do a school cheer to kind of ignore them?" Um, and they did that, and I think they did that with permission from the teachers. At one point early on, it was rumored that they were chanting, "Build the wall," but no one has surfaced any evidence of that whatsoever.

Joe Rogan 11:40 Well, that's what I heard from the Native American elder when he was talking about it in a vi- in a video. He said, "They were chanting out, 'Build that wall, build that wall.'"

Bari Weiss 11:46 And maybe they were. I just haven't seen anything-

Joe Rogan 11:48 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 11:48 ... and I've watched every video.

Joe Rogan 11:49 It's totally possible. They're also 16, right?

Bari Weiss 11:52 Right. Let- Right. So let's say-

Joe Rogan 11:52 And they're also trying to make their friends laugh, and they're assholes, and they're just being silly and stupid.

Bari Weiss 11:57 Right. And I have to say, as like someone who was a total nerd in high school, I saw the face of the main kid in that still photograph and that video, and I... Like, the, the 14- and 15-year-old girl in me was like enraged.

Joe Rogan 12:12 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 12:12 Really. Like, I was like, "I see the face of so many kids who said the nastiest things to me and who..."... threw friends of mine into garbage cans, like the, like disgusting bullying.

Joe Rogan 12:24 Was it because he's got the hat on?

Bari Weiss 12:25 But the thing is you have to get to the next step. If you're a jour-... No, it was, it was... Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan 12:30 Right. But if he's just standing there-

Bari Weiss 12:31 It's the hat, it's the face-

Joe Rogan 12:32 ... and he doesn't have the hat on-

Bari Weiss 12:34 Maybe even still if it's a group.

Joe Rogan 12:36 But he... uh, but here's-

Bari Weiss 12:37 But, but my thing is like, your initial reaction to something is not the truth.

Joe Rogan 12:43 Right.

Bari Weiss 12:44 It's your emotional reaction. And anyone who calls themselves a journalist, like your job is to figure out the facts of the case, not to make this into a kind of identitarian morality play. And the fact that so many people in so many publications (laughs) did just that. And in fact, when the real facts surfaced, just kind of, sort of dug their heels in and were basically like, "Well, he's a stand-in for the white patriarchy."

Joe Rogan 13:12 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 13:12 What? That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Yeah, it's crazy.

Bari Weiss 13:14 Like there was an actual BuzzFeed writer that said, "I- it's the look of white patriarchy, his face." You're really gonna put that on a 16-year-old? Would we d-... Like, it's just... That's nuts to me.

Joe Rogan 13:26 Well, it's cruel. Um, it's a denial of the individual. It's very cruel. Um, when you're 16 years old, you're basically a baby. You don't know what the fuck you're doing. You're incredibly susceptible to the influence of your peers. You're around a bunch of other boys. You're not around girls because you don't go to school with girls, because you go to some wacky religious school. Right? That, this is, you know, you wanna really be a social justice warrior? You really want to save the world? How about you do something about the Catholic Church? Everybody wants to go after R. Kelly, which is great, but how about the Catholic Church? How about the number one kid fucking organization of all time?

Bari Weiss 13:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 13:59 That's what it is. And I, I was raised Catholic. I know what it is.

Bari Weiss 14:02 Did anything happen to you?

Joe Rogan 14:03 Nothing happened to me, I got lucky. But I know people. I know a bunch of people. I know a bunch of people with stories. And this is all over the world.

Bari Weiss 14:11 Oh, yeah. But d-

Joe Rogan 14:12 These kids come from that cult. Imagine if that was not the Catholic Church, if it was instead Scientology. We would be going, "Oh, these kids are part of a cult." They went there, they're a part of this weird cult that suppresses sexuality amongst its priests and encourages the, the m- placement of these pedophile priests in new places in order to get away from whatever crime they've committed in the area where they were initially established. This is what the Catholic Church is, right? And, and they travel all over the place. But it also is good people. This is the, this is where nuance comes into play. It's good people. There's a bunch of people that are Catholics because they want a better relationship with, with God, or the universe, or love, or whatever. They feel like it's a good moral framework for their children. They take them there. They believe in the Ten Commandments. They believe in this moral structure for society that's laid down by what they believe is God.

Bari Weiss 15:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:05 There's great people that are involved in the Catholic Church, but it's also the number one kid fucking organization in the world.

Bari Weiss 15:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:10 It's those two things, right? So these kids are a part of something that's way worse than smirking at a Native American with a drum. And in my opinion, being a... I've rem- when I was 16, I was a fool. I was a dumb person.

Bari Weiss 15:26 Were you a bully?

Joe Rogan 15:27 No. I was bullied.

Bari Weiss 15:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:29 I was little.

Bari Weiss 15:30 Because you were small.

Joe Rogan 15:30 I was small, and I learned martial arts when I was like 15. And I'm sure I was a dick to some people just because I could get away with it. I don't, I don't really remember it, but I was definitely-

Bari Weiss 15:38 Most 15-year-old boys and girls are in different ways.

Joe Rogan 15:40 Yeah. I was... People are dicks. You're trying it out, you know? You don't even know how to talk yet.

Bari Weiss 15:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:44 You're basically just learning words. And this kid, with this guy beating the drum inches from his face, he handled it, I believe, way better than I would. I, I don't think I would have... I don't... See, I don't know if-

Bari Weiss 15:56 No, you might have walked away. I mean...

Joe Rogan 15:58 I don't think so.

Bari Weiss 15:59 Really?

Joe Rogan 16:00 No, I don't think so. Not when I was 16. Pro- probably when I was 16, also, I was competing. I was doing a lot of martial arts events. So maybe I would have kept it together better than I'm, I'm thinking I would have. But I definitely was a fucking idiot. And I was 16. You know, you just don't-

Bari Weiss 16:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 16:16 And, and who knows what's going on that day? Who knows?

Bari Weiss 16:19 Of course.

Joe Rogan 16:19 Like if you have anxiety about the future or your girlfriend broke up with you or you failed a test, or what else that is like b- b- bouncing around inside your head, overwhelming your ability to form reasonable thoughts.

Bari Weiss 16:31 Totally.

Joe Rogan 16:32 16.

Bari Weiss 16:33 But, but let's assume, by the way, that everyone's initial... not everyone's, every liberal I know, okay? Everyone on the center and center-left and even the center-right's reaction to it was accurate. That he was a little asshole-

Joe Rogan 16:45 Right.

Bari Weiss 16:46 ... that he's a racist, homophobic, transphobic, hates immigrants, and every single thing.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 16:52 Does that deserve to be news?

Joe Rogan 16:55 No.

Bari Weiss 16:55 That a 16-year-old kid with those views smirked at a Native American elder?

Joe Rogan 16:59 Especially considering what he actually did, no.

Bari Weiss 17:01 I'm not... I, I don't think that's news.

Joe Rogan 17:04 Not only that-

Bari Weiss 17:04 I think it's strange that we're covering it like it is. And because of the internet, the fact that we're... My timeline on Twitter and on Facebook and on everything, this was way bigger news than day, whatever it is, 30, 31, of the government shutdown-

Joe Rogan 17:20 Of the government shutdown.

Bari Weiss 17:20 ... where people are having to get on bread lines to feed their families.

Joe Rogan 17:24 Right. But-

Bari Weiss 17:24 I mean, come on.

Joe Rogan 17:25 ... here's the thing, is it like... But, but it's people what... It's what people want to talk about. I think there's this idea-

Bari Weiss 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:31 ... that there's things that are happening right now, like the government shutdown, and then there's things that are happening right now in terms of our culture shifting. And when these things that come up in opposition to what many people believe is a beneficial shift to a more progressive, more responsible culture, when these little hiccups, they get addressed, and they get addressed rapidly. And I think it's because people are aware that things are changing in this v- almost, like, uh, unprecedented way. If you look back at-

Bari Weiss 18:05 Yeah, unprecedented pace. I agree with that.

Joe Rogan 18:07 Yeah. Like nothing we've ever ex- there's nothing that you can find in the historical record for human beings has ever been what we've experienced over just the past 10-plus years of social, um, social networks and social media, and the ability to spread information very quickly with a YouTube video or a tweet or whatever. Where these, these, um...

Bari Weiss 18:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:28 The way people are exchanging information is just very different. And because of that, culture is shifting at a hyperspace speed. It's just...... eh, turbo-charged, for sure. So I think when something comes up that we think is like, "Ah, there's one! Get it."

Bari Weiss 18:43 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 18:44 But it's not logical. It's like, it's like road rage. You know why you get road rage, one of the reasons? Because you're going fast. Okay, you're in a car and you're nervous. Your, your heightened senses, so anything that happens, it gets magnified. Like someone says, "You motherfucker in my lane!"

Bari Weiss 18:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:58 "Fuck you! Honk, honk!"

Bari Weiss 19:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:00 'Cause you're already jacked up to eight because you're in a car going 60 miles an hour.

Bari Weiss 19:04 Wait, Twitter does that emotionally for us.

Joe Rogan 19:05 Twitter's doing that.

Bari Weiss 19:06 100%.

Joe Rogan 19:06 And social media's doing that. Life is doing that. This ... So when something like this comes up, this rapid pace of change which is almost in- impossible to keep up with, right? With the news cycle and this constant wave of change and information. So when something comes up, people are road raging on this kid.

Bari Weiss 19:24 Totally. That's why we just have to ... I mean, there's, there's lots of things to say, but one thing is just continue to insist on truth and facts.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Yes.

Bari Weiss 19:34 And not allowing people to be stand-ins for a group. You're not a stand-in for anyone. You're yourself. You answer for yourself. And I just, I find that trend on both sides really, really scary.

Joe Rogan 19:45 It's because people are insecure. And, you know, I think for someone like Kathy who's experienced ... Kathy Griffin who's experienced that public shaming-

Bari Weiss 19:54 She's ... Right. That amazes me, right? Like, she's been publicly shamed herself in the most horrific way, has ha- basically had to live underground and now she's saying, "Shame him, name him, and dox him"?

Joe Rogan 20:06 I think it reinforces-

Bari Weiss 20:06 I don't understand that.

Joe Rogan 20:08 It reinforces people's idea that they should be more, uh, more committed to their side, more committed to their team. The only way you're gonna get any support if you have been attacked and isolated and out alone is to get back deep, deep into the team again. Like how do you get back deep into the team again? You gotta be f- fucking rabid.

Bari Weiss 20:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:26 You know? And that's part of it. It's a, it's a natural reaction that people have to sort of signal to everyone else on the team they're all in. They're fully committed. They don't even care about their fucking career. "I'm an activist."

Bari Weiss 20:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:37 Like that kind of shit happens, and it's, it's people that want love. That's what a lot of it is.

Bari Weiss 20:42 Yes.

Joe Rogan 20:42 It's ... They, they do recognize that there's something wrong. They, they are reacting to a real thing. I'm not denying that. But I am saying that the, the reason, the overwhelming reason, the motivation for this kind of o- overzealous reaction is often a signaling thing. It's ... They wanna let everybody know-

Bari Weiss 20:59 Totally.

Joe Rogan 21:00 ... "I'm on, I'm on the fucking team, man. I'm all in. Let's go punch some Nazis." And the people that ... I've, I've talked to people that have said that in, in real life. And I'm like, "Man, you, you can't punch any ... You shouldn't punch anybody. They're gonna punch you back. What are you ... Don't punch with ... First of all, who's a ... "

Bari Weiss 21:16 Or serve your ... Save your punch for-

Joe Rogan 21:19 A real one.

Bari Weiss 21:20 ... a real one-

Joe Rogan 21:20 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 21:20 ... in-

Joe Rogan 21:20 A real one.

Bari Weiss 21:21 You know, in Poland-

Joe Rogan 21:22 Yes.

Bari Weiss 21:22 ... or in Hungary-

Joe Rogan 21:23 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 21:23 ... right now.

Joe Rogan 21:24 Right, right.

Bari Weiss 21:25 You know? Not a, not a 16-year-old kid who maybe has no idea what that hat signifies.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Well, um, I mean-

Bari Weiss 21:32 And all ... I mean, there's a broader point which is like the very same people, like one of the sort of w- wisdoms of, of criminal justice reform, right, is ... which I believe in, is that we shouldn't try kids as adults and we should forgive ... We should have greater generosity and mercy and forgiveness for the crimes of a child even if they're, they've committed them.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Yes.

Bari Weiss 21:54 Those same people are the ones saying, "Dox him and shame him," generally, politically.

Joe Rogan 21:58 Well, you're seeing that now. And this is ... Again, there's never been a doxing before. There was no doxing, right? How long has doxing been around, a decade?

Bari Weiss 22:07 I mean, Twitter does that emotionally for us.

Joe Rogan 22:07 Well, like y- ... since game- Gamergate is when it got huge, right? Yeah, maybe m- ... Let's go crazy and say the first doxing was 20 years ago.

Bari Weiss 22:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:15 That's a blip, right? That's so recent. So, you know, this is not a thing that people have really had to balance out in their mind when to do it and when not to do it. They just do it.

Bari Weiss 22:27 I think people have no idea of what that looks like.

Joe Rogan 22:29 Right. Well-

Bari Weiss 22:30 And unless you've experienced it or watched someone you know experience it, it's, it's like, it's like an abstraction, 'cause these people are abstractions. They're two-dimensional-

Joe Rogan 22:38 Yes.

Bari Weiss 22:38 ... little puppets.

Joe Rogan 22:39 That's exactly what it is. That's exact what it is. And this extreme lack of empathy, the, the lack of empathy towards anyone who doesn't share your position, this is very strange. It's, um, it's very ... It's piss-poor thinking and it's everywhere. And-

Bari Weiss 22:57 And everyone wants to feel ... Like not being a part of one of the tribes is an extremely lonely position and you get called all the bad names-

Joe Rogan 23:05 Right.

Bari Weiss 23:05 ... because people want you to be a part of their tribe. And people don't wanna be called bad names, and they wanna feel like they're in an in group.

Joe Rogan 23:11 100%

Bari Weiss 23:11 Like I ... Emotionally, I totally get that.

Joe Rogan 23:13 Yeah, 100%.

Bari Weiss 23:14 'Cause it kinda sucks being homeless.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Well, it's just-

Bari Weiss 23:17 Politically homeless.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Yes. It's just ... When you got a president that's so polarizing and you have an opposition to him that's so ... Th- th- there's so much momentum in opposing him, and I think this is a giant wedge in between these two sides, and then you have that hat. And that hat ... If that kid wasn't wearing that hat, I guarantee there'd be like 20% less hate. It would be-

Bari Weiss 23:43 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:44 It would be g- ... People would still get mad at him because he was stand- ... Like I've seen people say when a native elder walks up to you and he's banging his drums, "Get the fuck out of the way." I saw that. Like, come on. You can't expect that. You d- what ... You can't just beat your drum ... First of all, he got it right in the kid's face, like inches from the kid's face. Pretty amazing the restraint this kid had to just smile. And the idea that you're gonna judge this kid millions and millions and millions of people are going over this right now. That kid woke up that morning. He had no fucking idea. He was a kid in a cult, okay? He's in a Catholic cult school and he's going to some weird thing, some March for Life where people are trying to kill babies. "We gotta stop them from killing babies," right? And he goes there and there's-

Bari Weiss 24:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:27 ... these Black Israelites calling him a faggots and there's, there's all these people calling him names and, and then all of a sudden this guy's beating a drum in front of his face. And we're supposed to, we're supposed to dox this kid now 'cause he smirked?

Bari Weiss 24:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:39 That's, that's a crazy ... Th- uh, uh, an impossible lack of empathy. It's impossible to defend. Like-

Bari Weiss 24:48 I agree.

Joe Rogan 24:48 ... unless you hate boys, unless you hate all boys, 'cause boys are dumb. Like, 16-year-old boys are almost universally dumb. They all w- ... They all grow up to be men. Some of those men will be your best friend. Some of those men will be amazing. Some of those men you'd be so happy to see, when you see them, you'd give them a big hug. Okay? That's me.

Bari Weiss 25:05 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 25:06 That's me. I was a stupid fucking 16-year-old.

Bari Weiss 25:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:09 And I'm a man now, and I try to be as nice as I can to everybody. I go way out of my way to be a kind person. That could be that kid too. Like, what you're doing is not good for anybody. It's not, it's not good for society to take this trend and run with it. And, and, "Well, this is what people do now." You know, you dock 16-year-olds-

Bari Weiss 25:26 And it turbocharges the right.

Joe Rogan 25:28 Yes.

Bari Weiss 25:28 Like, that's what I think people are not quite understanding, that dynamic.

Joe Rogan 25:33 Yes.

Bari Weiss 25:33 That if you're someone who, you know, is frustrated with Trump and is maybe moving to the middle and ... You know, imagine that person. It's easy to imagine.

Joe Rogan 25:43 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 25:43 Then you see this, and you're like, "I don't want those people being in charge of me. I don't want those people running the government."

Joe Rogan 25:48 Yes.

Bari Weiss 25:49 I mean, that's the, like, visceral reaction. I just ... I don't think they're understanding the, like, implications of what they're doing.

Joe Rogan 25:56 I don't think they understand-

Bari Weiss 25:57 Maybe they do. Maybe they do.

Joe Rogan 25:58 No. There's no mastermind behind this. There's a- ... And there's no understanding-

Bari Weiss 26:00 No, no. I don't mean a mastermind, but, like-

Joe Rogan 26:02 Right. But I don't think they do understand there are implications. The- the ... When you have a spectrum, right? The far right and the far left, they have a very similar reaction, is they drive a person to the other side. The person that sees the far right and sees repulsive racism and, and, and bigotry, that- ... Uh, you know, "Build that wall. Fuck these Mexicans. Fuck those little kids. Th- they should have known better. They're all illegals." That kind of person, that pushes people towards progressivism. It, it pushes people towards m- much more liberal, even

Joe Rogan 26:32 socialist ideologies. Like, "Fuck that grossness." And the same thing could be said for someone ... Like, I'll ... I'm gonna send you something, Jamie. This is a real, uh, poster that ANTIFA is sending, um ... They're- they were putting on, um, on wa- ... on walls and, and fenceposts and shit in, uh, the Pacific Northwest. And, uh, it's actually kind of hilarious, 'cause it's so stupid. I'm gonna s-

Bari Weiss 26:56 How do I see it?

Joe Rogan 26:56 I'm gonna- I'm gonna send it to Jamie.

Bari Weiss 26:58 Oh, cool.

Joe Rogan 26:58 And Jamie's gonna put it up on the screen here. But, uh, it, it says, uh ... Oops. Wrong, wrong Jamie. Sorry, Jamie Kilstein.

Bari Weiss 27:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:07 (laughs) Here you go, buddy. Oh, I just sent it. It says, "When you date a white, it's not all right." And it's like-

Bari Weiss 27:14 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 27:15 ... it's telling people to not date white people.

Bari Weiss 27:18 "Propagation of whites is propagation of hatred-"

Joe Rogan 27:21 Yes.

Bari Weiss 27:21 "... oppression, homophobia, sexism, transphobia, racism, and ableism."

Joe Rogan 27:26 Now, if I was a s-

Bari Weiss 27:26 So, are we supposed to-

Joe Rogan 27:28 Yes.

Bari Weiss 27:28 ... sterilize white people?

Joe Rogan 27:29 There it is. We can see it up on the big screen so it's even grosser.

Bari Weiss 27:31 Cool. That's awesome.

Joe Rogan 27:31 'Cause it's large.

Bari Weiss 27:32 Jesus.

Joe Rogan 27:32 But, see, this is the thing. Racism is-

Bari Weiss 27:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:36 Racism is terrible, right? So, how do you stop racism? "Well, racism is- can only be per- perpetrated by white people." Oh. Well, th- the problem is white people. We gotta stop white people. Well, now you're racist. Like, you're literally being racist to stop rac-

Bari Weiss 27:49 Is this really everywhere? I've never seen this.

Joe Rogan 27:50 Oh. Well, the people are finding it and posting it online.

Bari Weiss 27:53 Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 27:54 And someone sent it to me. Um, I don't know if it's everywhere. It's probably just one asshole, right? But-

Bari Weiss 27:58 Do you see, like-

Joe Rogan 27:58 But the per- ... But the person exists.

Bari Weiss 28:00 Do-

Joe Rogan 28:00 Right? That person exists, and they think they're a progressive.

Bari Weiss 28:02 Do you see the cold civil war that we're in in this country becoming a hot one?

Joe Rogan 28:06 Yes. No, I hope not. I ... That's why I worry about this punch stuff.

Bari Weiss 28:09 Like, where does this go?

Joe Rogan 28:10 This-

Bari Weiss 28:10 Where does this go?

Joe Rogan 28:10 No one knows. If we did, we ... you could make a lot of money in the stock market. (laughs)

Bari Weiss 28:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:14 This is- this is why I'm concerned, especially because I understand violence a lot better than most people do. You can't just say, "Go punch people." When Reza Aslan says, "Have you seen a more punchable face?" that is so fucking dangerous, because you're almost saying, "Go punch this kid." I saw someone else. I accidentally favored something. I didn't mean to favorite it.

Bari Weiss 28:38 (laughs) I hope you unfavored it.

Joe Rogan 28:39 I did. Someone pointed to me, and I- I'm just lucky that I looked at it, because I normally don't even read comments. But somebody pointed out that I favored of- a really preposterous tweet, um, that said, "Honest que-" Um, it said, "The reply from the school was pathetic and impotent. Name these kid-" Oh, that's Kathy Griffin. Uh, here's the one that said-

Bari Weiss 28:58 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 28:59 Uh, this guy said ... Goddammit, I can't find it. He was basically saying, "No need to f-" Here it is. Uh, "A face like that never changes. This image will define his life."

Bari Weiss 29:10 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 29:11 "No one need, no one need ever forgive him." And this is a person with a blue check mark by their name. "No one need ever forgive him. A face like that defines his life." That is virtual signaling in the most toxic form. It's so, so dangerous-

Bari Weiss 29:25 But it's also, like-

Joe Rogan 29:25 ... to think like that.

Bari Weiss 29:26 ... the idea that ... Just ... I'm sorry. I was trying to-

Joe Rogan 29:30 No, it's okay.

Bari Weiss 29:32 The idea that people cannot change-

Joe Rogan 29:34 It's crazy.

Bari Weiss 29:34 ... and are irredeemable-

Joe Rogan 29:36 Right.

Bari Weiss 29:36 ... is crazy.

Joe Rogan 29:38 Cancel culture. I was talking about this with, with Kanye, honestly. We were talking about cancel culture.

Bari Weiss 29:43 When was he on the show?

Joe Rogan 29:44 We were talking about him in person.

Bari Weiss 29:45 Oh. Well, okay.

Joe Rogan 29:45 Or, on the phone.

Bari Weiss 29:46 Okay, Joe.

Joe Rogan 29:46 He's gonna be on the show.

Bari Weiss 29:47 Okay, cool.

Joe Rogan 29:48 Allegedly. He's- he's a little nervous about it.

Bari Weiss 29:50 I'd like to see him with a samurai sword, posing in front of American flags.

Joe Rogan 29:53 I think he would go with Elon Musk on-

Bari Weiss 29:54 Yeah, you're probably right.

Jamie Vernon 29:54 I looked up that poster. It's been ... It was first posted over two years ago, and it supposedly is a- ... like, a troll.

Joe Rogan 30:03 Oh.

Jamie Vernon 30:03 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 30:04 Oh, good.

Joe Rogan 30:04 That makes sense.

Jamie Vernon 30:05 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 30:05 Very good, very good.

Joe Rogan 30:05 He does- ... But this is the world where it's hard to find what's a troll and what's not. But I was gonna say that if I was cynical, I would say that if I was a person who's, like, far right-

Bari Weiss 30:14 Exactly. You'd put that up.

Joe Rogan 30:15 ... I would put that up-

Bari Weiss 30:15 Of course.

Joe Rogan 30:16 ... just to fuck with these people, and it's ... We peop- ... I mean, it's basically like some CIA psyops type shit.

Bari Weiss 30:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:22 You know what I mean? This is- ... This- ... But- but we're so through the looking glass here that, like, that post that I just read you, that's a real post about, "This guy is unredeemable. No one need ever forgive him." That's just as bad, in my opinion, as that poster saying, "Don't date white people." It's all crazy.

Bari Weiss 30:39 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 30:39 We-

Bari Weiss 30:39 You're depressing me.

Joe Rogan 30:39 We d- ... No.

Bari Weiss 30:40 No, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 30:41 Don't be depressed.

Bari Weiss 30:42 But Jesus-

Joe Rogan 30:42 But here's the thing-

Bari Weiss 30:42 ... you have to, like, fight ... I have to fight this feeling of despair.You have to. Like, I find myself fighting it because the basic, like, some, like, basic virtues, right?

Joe Rogan 30:53 Yes.

Bari Weiss 30:53 That used to be normal, right? Like civility, right? Civility has now become, for some people, a code word for, like, complicity with Nazism.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Right.

Bari Weiss 31:03 Like if you're c- if you're civil and you believe in civility and you believe in, you know, treating people decently and with giving them the benefit of the doubt, like that, that word itself has become a code or a signal in a negative way.

Joe Rogan 31:17 Mm.

Bari Weiss 31:17 Empathy. Like, humil- even doubt. Even saying it, "I don't know." You know? Uh, uh, i- just these basic virtues seem to have been l- like swept away.

Joe Rogan 31:27 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 31:27 And I don't know when they, when they got lost.

Joe Rogan 31:31 Well, a key ingredient for sure, the thing that hardened the epoxy was Trump.

Bari Weiss 31:35 (laughs) Well, uh, obviously.

Joe Rogan 31:37 I think these, these trends, these trends are going in that direction anyway, but he capitalized on that. You know, he's a very smart manipulator. I mean, he knew how to capitalize on that. I mean, this chant of "build that wall," it's not an accident that that's something that he concentrates on. And it's not just that it's, uh, they're in a political battle right now because if he, they get him to back down off the wall, then, you know, he looks like a, a loser when 2020 comes around. He's, looks less powerful to all his people. Um, there's that for sure. But there's also this, uh, he's so egregious. Like every, he's so, he's so that guy.

Bari Weiss 32:11 Well, he's gotten rid of all the guardrails.

Joe Rogan 32:12 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 32:13 Like he's broken the dam. My question, like thinking about how we're gonna get beyond this is, how do we build it back? Because he's broken something or he's signifying the fact that it was broken, one or the other. I think that he was both a symptom of something that was broken that we didn't recognize and now he's further catalyzed that brokenness.

Joe Rogan 32:31 Well, I think both sides have to recognize that the other side has some points. That's one thing. And then I think we also have to treat ourselves like we're all a family and we're all on a big team 'cause that's what we really are. If we really are the United States of American, I mean, what, what is a, what is a country? I mean, if, if anything, we're supposed to be a team. The idea that we're separated and we're two teams in this one team, the real differences in terms of, like, who gets elected, like, how it's going to affect your life, uh, involve business, involve some social policies, involve some things.

Bari Weiss 33:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:04 But the way we interact with each other on a day-to-day doesn't involve that at all. That has to be fixed first. The way we think about each other on a day-to-day basis. There used to be a time where you could have a conservative friend and you could be a liberal and you could be a fucking long-haired hippie guy and you, and as long as you're a good hardworking person who didn't let their lawn go crazy, your next door neighbor who was like a Goldwater Republican would talk to you.

Bari Weiss 33:27 Totally.

Joe Rogan 33:27 And you would go, "How's it going, Mike? What's going over there?" "Uh, you know, guys at the force are trying to put together this case and this and that." And you know, a professor could live right next to a cop and they would be friends and one would be conservative and one would be liberal and they would make fun of each other a little bit and rib each other a little bit, and that would be the end of it. That would be it. It wouldn't be this, this civil war that we're experiencing right now. Right now, just verbal and hopefully it stays that way. But it's, it's, it's confusing. It's confusing 'cause there's a lack of, uh, a frustrating lack of empathy that when I look at human beings and when I look at people that aren't seeing what everyone else is seeing or they're not seeing things objectively and they're irrational and overly emotional, I always assume there's something else they're running from. I always assume. When I see someone lashing out and f- insulting everyone around them, I always assume it's not the, the people around them. It's something internal. There's some- something maybe some existential angst they're fighting against, some realization of the futility of life, whatever the fuck it is.

Bari Weiss 34:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:29 I mean, you-

Bari Weiss 34:29 Totally.

Joe Rogan 34:30 We're finite organisms-

Bari Weiss 34:32 Yes.

Joe Rogan 34:32 ... playing this game as if it lasts forever and accumulating stuff as if it's going somewhere with you. Like it's gonna get in that wooden canoe and the god Ra is gonna take it with you in the afterlife.

Bari Weiss 34:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:43 It's nonsense. And somehow or another we know this and we, as, especially as people get older, they seem to push it further and further in the back of their mind and they get more and more ideologically based. They're less open-minded. They're l- they're less open to nuance. It's very rare you see a 65-year-old guy switch parties.

Bari Weiss 35:02 Yeah, that's right. You become calcified.

Joe Rogan 35:04 Yeah. You become that guy. You know?

Bari Weiss 35:06 The uncle.

Joe Rogan 35:07 Yeah, that fucking asshole uncle that has-

Bari Weiss 35:09 (laughs) That's a good word.

Joe Rogan 35:09 ... a couple of drinks in him and starts talking about the gays.

Bari Weiss 35:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:12 You know, and this and that and all, all the, the, the things that are wrong with our culture, the sodomites. You know, people start talking crazy.

Bari Weiss 35:19 I've never heard that at a Thanksgiving dinner, thank God.

Joe Rogan 35:21 I haven't, I haven't either, thankfully.

Bari Weiss 35:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:23 Mm. But, um, I think there's a few things that could help us. One, I think, um, is just time. Realizing that these stupid fucking blowups over this kid and the discussion that comes afterwards, hopefully some of this will settle down. We're allowed to have disagreements. We're allowed to have opinions about how these kids should have behaved. We're allowed to have ideas in their, in our minds about h- how, how you would behave if you were that kid. But I don't think you're allowed to dox him. I don't think you're allowed to even say that. I don't think you're allowed to say that you want to punch him. I think that's a fool-

Bari Weiss 36:02 That needs to become socially unacceptable-

Joe Rogan 36:04 Yes.

Bari Weiss 36:04 ... to do that.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Yeah, you need, you need to be checked for that 'cause that's y- you know, when, uh, when someone says things like Reza Aslan, how many, who's, who's punched him? Anybody punch you, buddy? Who's ever punched you? You know what being-

Bari Weiss 36:15 No idea.

Joe Rogan 36:15 ... punched feels like? You know what it's like?

Bari Weiss 36:17 Sam Harris? Would he have punched Reza Aslan? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:19 You miss, he might. Jordan would probably punch him. Jordan's more of a "I'll punch you" type of a guy. I don't think Sam would ever say he would punch somebody.

Bari Weiss 36:25 I can never, I cannot, I have to say, I cannot imagine ever saying to someone, "I will punch you."

Joe Rogan 36:29 Well, you know-

Bari Weiss 36:29 I've felt the feeling of I'm gonna punch you, but I, I can never imagine typing that.

Joe Rogan 36:33 It's, yeah, I mean, unless you're protecting someone you care about or your own self.

Bari Weiss 36:38 Although I did see this amazing video of Buzz Aldrin. Did you see this?

Joe Rogan 36:41 Oh, punching the guy who said he didn't go to... I know that guy.

Bari Weiss 36:43 (laughs) He-

Joe Rogan 36:44 That guy Bart Sibrel that he punched. I went to, I went to dinner with that guy.

Bari Weiss 36:46 You know a moon landing denier?

Joe Rogan 36:48 Oh yeah. I used to be one.

Bari Weiss 36:48 I mean, I know you know Alex Jones.

Joe Rogan 36:50 I used to be a moon landing denier. I used to believe, I used to believe totally that we never went to the moon 'cause there was a documentary that came out on Fox-

Bari Weiss 36:56 No, no.

Joe Rogan 36:56 Yes, trust me.

Bari Weiss 36:58 (laughs) No.

Joe Rogan 36:58 Fox-

Bari Weiss 36:58 I didn't wi- I didn't Google you hard enough-

Joe Rogan 37:00 In the nine-

Bari Weiss 37:00 ... before I came on here. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:02 In the 1990s, in the 1990s-

Bari Weiss 37:03 Wait. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:03 Fox had a, a show-

Bari Weiss 37:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:05 ... uh, called Conspiracy Theory: Did We Go To The Moon? And they aired it on television in primetime, and they got me hook, line, and sinker. And for years-

Bari Weiss 37:13 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 37:13 ... I believed that we didn't go to the moon.

Bari Weiss 37:15 What changed you?

Joe Rogan 37:16 Mostly talking to Neil deGrasse Tyson, but also critical thinking. Also, uh, r- realizing that I was fully committed to that idea without really exploring the possibility whether that idea was incorrect and that I had taken everything that I saw in that documentary, which is incredibly convincing, and with 100% confirmation bias, I only looked at that, and I didn't look at all the contrary evidence. There's some fucked up stuff about the moon landing unfortunately, and the fucked up stuff is mostly people that were involved in publicity that were doing stupid things with photographs. Like they had taken a pic- a picture of, um, uh-

Bari Weiss 37:50 You're gonna g- I'm going into unchartered territory here-

Joe Rogan 37:53 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 37:53 ... just so you know. Like, you're an expert on this.

Joe Rogan 37:55 Yes.

Bari Weiss 37:55 I've never gone into moon landing denialism.

Joe Rogan 37:58 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 37:58 So I don't know about it.

Joe Rogan 37:59 Uh, was, uh, Buzz Aldrin, um, who was the guy that was... Michael Collins. Michael Collins in Gemini 15. He was a-

Bari Weiss 38:07 Jamie's like, "I've heard this before." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:09 There was a photograph. He's seen it many times.

Bari Weiss 38:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:10 Pulled up that photo. This is-

Bari Weiss 38:12 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 38:12 ... this is what I'm talking about.

Bari Weiss 38:12 With the shadow?

Joe Rogan 38:13 No, no, no. It has nothing to do with that. This is a photo-

Bari Weiss 38:15 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 38:15 ... that they, um, they put out as an official photograph of Michael Collins doing a space walk. But what it actually is, is a photo of them testing equipment and they blacked out the background. So he's in this suit that they were doing with testing and instead... Because they really couldn't get good photos in space, 'cause no one's out there with him taking his pictures, right? So they lied. They faked it. This is it. So you see, the one on the left, you see the real photograph. And this is him in a studio where they're working on him f- trying... Or warehouse rather or some sort of a testing environment.

Bari Weiss 38:45 Okay.

Joe Rogan 38:45 Working on how to, uh, control these harnesses that you would use when you were on a space walk.

Bari Weiss 38:51 Okay.

Joe Rogan 38:51 'Cause that thing, you know, propels him forward and back and he's learning how to use it. What they did was they just blacked out the background and reversed it, and then they sold that as him actually being in space. So this is probably an-

Bari Weiss 39:04 Okay.

Joe Rogan 39:04 ... overzealous publicist. And there's a bunch of these. There's a bunch of these when it comes to, um, d- different backgrounds in, in areas of the moon that are many, many miles apart from each other that shouldn't be the same background. And more likely than not what you're dealing with is overzealous publicists because photographs were incredibly difficult to get, I'm sure.

Bari Weiss 39:23 Well, the moral of the story to me-

Joe Rogan 39:25 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 39:25 Thank God, first of all, that you're no longer a moon landing denier, but also, the power of the media and the press, and like, you saw one documentary, right?

Joe Rogan 39:36 Well there was a couple after I saw that.

Bari Weiss 39:37 And that-

Joe Rogan 39:37 I saw quite a few.

Bari Weiss 39:38 But that sent you down this rabbit hole.

Joe Rogan 39:40 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 39:40 And that, you know, I've been thinking about, did you see that Roku is, um, I think deplatformed InfoWars?

Joe Rogan 39:46 Yes, instantly. Like within a day. But I wanted to ask you-

Bari Weiss 39:48 I have to say-

Joe Rogan 39:48 ... a question before we get to that.

Bari Weiss 39:49 Okay. 'Cause I have to say, I feel, I think I support that because I don't want... Like in an age in which people don't know, okay? Like a s- a 15 year old clicking through their Roku doesn't necessarily know the difference between CNN and InfoWars and The New York Times and MSNBC and whatever. And of course, some of those other ones have biases, obviously. But InfoWars promotes conspiracy theories. And do I want a 15 year old kid stumbling into that and thinking that that information is on par or on a level with actual facts?

Joe Rogan 40:29 The problem with conspiracy theories is that some of them are real. This is the real problem. The problem is, you don't know which ones are real, but some of them are real. Um, the Gulf of Tonkin that got us into the Vietnam War. Are you aware of that?

Bari Weiss 40:42 Okay, but Sandy Hook?

Joe Rogan 40:43 Well, okay. Sandy Hook for sure happened, a bunch of kids died, and these are horrible. These are horrible, evil conspiracies. The problem is-

Bari Weiss 40:50 Promoted by-

Joe Rogan 40:51 Right.

Bari Weiss 40:51 ... Alex Jones.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Yes. It's horrible. Without a doubt.

Bari Weiss 40:54 It's-

Joe Rogan 40:54 And, you know, and I, I saw the Media Matters clip that I'd, I'd never seen before. I saw it recently, um-

Bari Weiss 40:59 Which clip? I don't-

Joe Rogan 41:00 The one that shows every time he brought it up.

Bari Weiss 41:02 Oh.

Joe Rogan 41:03 I mean, it's not just one time.

Bari Weiss 41:04 Oh, I know. It's- he's obsessed with it.

Joe Rogan 41:04 Many, many, many times and was saying it was an absolutely fake thing.

Bari Weiss 41:08 Has he, has he ever apologized for this?

Joe Rogan 41:09 He's backed off of the position now. But I think-

Bari Weiss 41:12 Because of the lawsuit or...

Joe Rogan 41:13 I'm sure it's a lot of things. I'm sure it's the pressure, I'm sure it's... It has to be a realization that he knows that it really did happen. But there's a, a giant group of people out there that still believe it didn't happen, and they still confront these parents, uh, e- even in court.

Bari Weiss 41:28 I know.

Joe Rogan 41:28 And they call them crisis actors.

Bari Weiss 41:29 No, I know. The, The Times has done-

Joe Rogan 41:30 It's-

Bari Weiss 41:30 ... amazing reporting on this. Elizabeth Williamson, my old colleague.

Joe Rogan 41:33 It's sick. It's sick. It's twisted. Um-

Bari Weiss 41:37 We probably shouldn't... I mean, we can go into conspiracy theories.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Well, it's not, it's not a bad thing-

Bari Weiss 41:39 I just don't know.

Joe Rogan 41:40 ... to go into. It's not a bad thing to go into, 'cause it's a thing.

Bari Weiss 41:44 Okay.

Joe Rogan 41:44 But it's, it's, you know, it's-

Bari Weiss 41:46 But I'm curious what you think though-

Joe Rogan 41:47 ... dangerous ground.

Bari Weiss 41:48 What do you think of Roku taking InfoWars off?

Joe Rogan 41:52 Uh, I think we have to decide what, what is Twitter? What is Facebook?

Bari Weiss 41:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 What is YouTube? The position that most people have is, these are private companies, they can make their own rules. This is just like CBS deciding that if you use, uh, you know, if you drunkenly yell the N-word out at a Black police officer, that they don't want you as a newscaster anymore. Or what, you know-

Bari Weiss 42:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:16 There's a public ac- or a private company that can make these distinctions. If you, uh, take a position, uh, an antisemitic position publicly, they can, they can decide, "Look, we don't want you on the air anymore." And then there's other people that think freedom of speech in this form is, is so important and that the answer to bad ideas is not stopping those ideas, it's good ideas. It's good ideas confronting those ideas and you see it all work itself out. That's, that's the, that's the other side of the coin. That's the other side of the argument. The argument that the, we should treat, whether it's Twitter or YouTube or any of these social media platforms as a public utility and that you should be able to distribute information. The real problem is, with all of this, is that it's very messy-... the, the, the, there's, this is a nuanced issue. There's a lot going on because when you do decide to de-platform someone for having an awful position and spreading a false conspiracy about that, m- most people are gonna agree with you. But the question is, does it stop there?

Bari Weiss 43:19 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 43:20 And does it move on to, "You are a person who believes in white nationalism"? What does that mean? "Well, I believe that black pride is fine, but I, I also believe white pride is fine." What about those people? Where do we go with them?

Bari Weiss 43:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:33 Th- then it gets slippery. And then-

Bari Weiss 43:34 And what about the alt-right adjacent people?

Joe Rogan 43:36 Yeah, alt-right adjacent.

Bari Weiss 43:37 I totally get it.

Joe Rogan 43:37 What, what about people that have given the alt-right a platform? You know, what, are they, are they a part of the problem now? Should we de-platform them? I mean, this is one of the things that ... There was a, uh, a p- a paper that someone had put together, an article, it was k-

Bari Weiss 43:51 Was this-

Joe Rogan 43:51 Yes.

Bari Weiss 43:51 ... the data and society thing?

Joe Rogan 43:52 Hilarious. Where it's like-

Bari Weiss 43:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:54 ... everyone has this very bizarre connection. And-

Bari Weiss 43:57 It's six degrees of Kevin Bacon-

Joe Rogan 43:58 Yes.

Bari Weiss 43:58 ... basically.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Exactly. And, but, but they're using it in terms of-

Bari Weiss 44:02 Like-

Joe Rogan 44:02 ... the way that it connections is almost as if it's scientific data.

Bari Weiss 44:05 Well, they would basically say of you or of some- someone, like s-

Joe Rogan 44:09 Well, they did say of me.

Bari Weiss 44:10 They said of you-

Joe Rogan 44:10 Yes.

Bari Weiss 44:10 ... "You're a gateway to the alt-right."

Joe Rogan 44:11 Yes.

Bari Weiss 44:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:12 So what I said is, "Barbara Walters interviewed Castro. Does that make her a communist?"

Bari Weiss 44:16 Right. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 44:16 What the fuck are you talking about?

Bari Weiss 44:18 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 44:18 I'm pretty left. Like, just ask me questions. Like, if you wanna know, I'm not gonna hide my positions on things from you. I, I'm very open. Obviously, I told people I used to believe the moon landing was fake.

Bari Weiss 44:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:29 I'll just tell you all the stupid shit I believed. But the, the question with this is, it, uh, w- why do people want that? Because it's simple and easy. Just get 'em, get rid of 'em. Punch 'em. Punch the Nazis. It's lazy, stupid people thinking, and they're thinking publicly, and they, uh, they represent a, uh, a progressive viewpoint with their lazy, stupid thinking. It's not that progressivism and that, uh, that progressive viewpoints are bad. It's that lazy, stupid thinking in applying

Joe Rogan 44:59 a progressive viewpoint is bad. It's not even that socialism is bad. I've been thinking a lot about socialism lately, in terms of, like, what is the point if, if we get to a certain point and then our s- our hea- our heart stops beating and we, we die, uh, and you, you left behind $18 billion to your kids because you were the ultimate capitalist and you went hog wild. That's, that's a fool's path. That is a nonsense path. Like, why did you do that? Like, why didn't you try to use that money, this insane amount of wealth, and have this massive impact on, on the populous? Why, why didn't you try to, uh, uh, figure out some way-

Bari Weiss 45:41 Well, it would be your choice to.

Joe Rogan 45:42 ... for your engineer? Right, it wouldn't be a choice to. But what if the same-

Bari Weiss 45:46 And it, and it can be your choice to be Bill Gates right now.

Joe Rogan 45:48 But what if this b- Bill Gates is doing that-

Bari Weiss 45:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:51 ... in a lot of ways, with some of the money. He's got a lot of fucking money.

Bari Weiss 45:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:54 You know, if he throws a million here or there, it really ain't shit for him. I mean, he's got, like, $90 billion, whatever it is. But the point is that things like the fire department, we agree, this is a socialist thing, right? The, we, we're all chipping in.

Bari Weiss 46:08 We have public utilities.

Joe Rogan 46:10 Yes. We have public utilities. We have, uh, b- you know, people that, Parks and Recreation, people that, uh, Department of Fish and Wildlife, and, you know, uh, the, the sheriffs that-

Bari Weiss 46:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:20 ... p- patrol our national forests. Like, we all chip in to pay for these things. We all agree these are important things.

Bari Weiss 46:25 Well, one of the things that was so interesting about Australia is that in certain ways it's a more ... You know, it's thought of d- as sort of a macho culture, maybe more s- masculine, a little bit more conservative than here generally. And yet, the left has won there on so many of the major issues that we're fighting, we're killing each other over now.

Joe Rogan 46:45 They're very good people.

Bari Weiss 46:45 Universal healthcare.

Joe Rogan 46:46 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 46:47 Mandatory 401k. Nine th- it's like a $18 minimum wage. Pensions, four weeks of vacation a year. Like ...

Joe Rogan 46:56 I think they get maternity leave as well, like mom maternity leave.

Bari Weiss 46:57 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:59 Um-

Bari Weiss 46:59 It's just, like, so many of the things that here are up for grabs, they already solved.

Joe Rogan 47:02 I think we have to take two things into consideration. One, um, that they have a small population.

Bari Weiss 47:08 Small and homogenous.

Joe Rogan 47:09 Yes, and it's an enormous place. You're dealing with a place as large as the contiguous United States of America, but there's only 20 million people.

Bari Weiss 47:15 Oh, I'm aware because when they-

Joe Rogan 47:16 Less.

Bari Weiss 47:16 ... they were like, "It's crowded in that restaurant." And I was like-

Joe Rogan 47:19 Right.

Bari Weiss 47:19 ... "You mean I don't have to wait for an hour to get in?" Like, (laughs) they have no c-

Joe Rogan 47:23 They don't-

Bari Weiss 47:23 They've never seen a crowd of people.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 47:25 They-

Joe Rogan 47:25 They don't know what a real crowd is. And also, I think their culture is less constrained by history, because they came, they were, uh, essentially prisoners. I mean, they, they, it's like several generations removed.

Bari Weiss 47:37 Right, the non-indigenous. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 47:39 Yeah, but it's, uh, not, not only that they're not indigenous-

Bari Weiss 47:42 No, I mean, like, the non-indigenous population were prisoners.

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yeah, prisoners. Yes. Um, yeah, well, they came from, they were sent there because England didn't want them, and that's literally how the country got founded.

Bari Weiss 47:52 Oh, yeah, for, like, stealing a watch.

Joe Rogan 47:54 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 47:54 Like, they were low level crims (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 47:56 Well, then they sent them to the much better place.

Bari Weiss 47:58 Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:59 Way better.

Bari Weiss 48:00 It's amazing.

Joe Rogan 48:00 They went to the Gold Coast. You're like, "Holy shit."

Bari Weiss 48:02 It's stunning. It just takes forever to get there.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Yeah, if you were in Manchester and it's raining every day and you're like, "Fuck this place," and you, you, you know, you stole a watch and they shipped you off to the Gold Coast, you'd be like, "What?"

Bari Weiss 48:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:12 "What just happened? This is hilarious."

Bari Weiss 48:14 Totally.

Joe Rogan 48:14 "You can fish out here. It's fucking beautiful." They're nice people, and I, I wonder if they're so n- I feel like they are slightly-

Bari Weiss 48:21 I think they're-

Joe Rogan 48:22 ... less nice than Canadians, who are way more nice than us.

Bari Weiss 48:26 I think that's right. I also think that they have, they have it so good that they're a little complacent, and that makes me-

Joe Rogan 48:33 Oh.

Bari Weiss 48:34 ... concerned because China.

Joe Rogan 48:37 Okay, right.

Bari Weiss 48:37 That's, like, the big-

Joe Rogan 48:38 Okay.

Bari Weiss 48:38 ... story there.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Yeah. Yes. Yes, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Well, you know, that is to be considered, but I, I think the United States, first of all, we, we have this momentum of innovation and of ass kicking and, and, and getting things done and creating things that's so different any other part of the world. If we took that shit down a notch, I think we'd be okay. You know, I mean, I think we definitely do have to worry about China, and we, you know, I've been really trying to closely follow all this Huawei stuff, where these executives keep getting arrested. And, you know, it's the close relationship between some tech companies and this-... communist government-

Bari Weiss 49:24 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:24 ... is very confusing. But some people look at over- if you talk to people that are Chinese natives or who have been to China, they almost look at it as a positive. That there's less resistance, it's more ... even though the censorship is open, it's ... at least you know what you're dealing with over there. As opposed to, you know, the NSA is spying on us-

Bari Weiss 49:42 Oh, but come on.

Joe Rogan 49:43 ... but pretending that ... Oh, I don't buy it at all.

Bari Weiss 49:44 Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:44 But it's-

Bari Weiss 49:44 I've seen some people make that argument. It's horrifying to me.

Joe Rogan 49:48 It's weird. It's weird.

Bari Weiss 49:48 It's horrifying.

Joe Rogan 49:49 Yeah. So yeah, I agree, I agree with you, you do have to worry about China. But I think Australia is like, "Ah, those fucking Americans will take care of it."

Bari Weiss 49:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:56 Or that's so they think.

Bari Weiss 49:57 Sort of.

Joe Rogan 49:58 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 49:58 Except, like, their situation is that they're enormously economic ... uh, they're enormously dependent on China economically.

Joe Rogan 50:05 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 50:05 And they love having that money. Uh, but they seem to be a little bit, like, sleepwalking through history and not ... at least some people that I, I spoke to.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Australians.

Bari Weiss 50:17 But that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 50:17 ... the real story in Australia, is China.

Joe Rogan 50:20 Yeah. Well, I think when you're n- you're not a military might, you know, you're not like one of the big players, you're kind of like sitting back watching, because what are we gonna do? Like, what if Australia decides to ramp up its defense budget by, you know, 5000% over the next 10 years and develop a, a crazy arsenal of weapons and super soldiers and shoot 'em all up with steroids and give 'em exoskeletons and get ready to go to war, start building bunkers-

Bari Weiss 50:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:46 ... and freak the rest of the world out? I mean, that's ... And take this, like, North Korea with money approach to the world. And if they-

Bari Weiss 50:52 What do you mean North Korea with money?

Joe Rogan 50:53 Well, North Korea is basically like this scary spot that nobody wants to invade, even though we know that there's a military dictatorship there. They have-

Bari Weiss 51:01 Yeah, because they have nuclear weapons.

Joe Rogan 51:02 ... nuclear weapons. Yeah, they have nuclear weapons. They have a madman who's in control. They have people that escape with horrific stories.

Bari Weiss 51:07 And we have a president-

Joe Rogan 51:08 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 51:08 ... who talks about them as if they're sort of a normal country.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Yeah. Well, and the weird thing is, like, he might be able to sit down with them and actually talk to them, is, is ... Unconventional approach might actually lead to some sort of communication at least, which is better than nothing, I guess. But th- but if ... I don't mean like a North Korea like they take over the country and imprison its people. I mean, like, they're ... they become kind of dangerous and sketchy and small. Like, North Korea is not a military dict- power, like, in terms of like the way the Soviet Union is, where they could take over the world, but they're scary.

Bari Weiss 51:39 No, but they're untouchable.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 51:40 And that's scary.

Joe Rogan 51:41 Exactly. If Australia became that, then I think we'd have a totally different attitude about Australia.

Bari Weiss 51:45 Yeah, no. Australia, we, uh, we don't n- ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:47 Yeah. Australia is just laid back and they're like, "Ah, Americans will take care of it."

Bari Weiss 51:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:50 And then we're over here building fucking walls and shooting missiles. Um, yeah, I would, I would imagine it would be really weird to watch us from afar. You know, if you were paying attention to world politics-

Bari Weiss 52:03 They know everything. I mean, everyone I talked to there was like, "Let's talk about gerrymandering in Virginia." And I'm like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 52:10 (laughs)

Bari Weiss 52:10 Like, "Wh- what? What are you saying?" Like-

Joe Rogan 52:12 It's kind of like you have to pay attention.

Bari Weiss 52:12 ... they obsessively follow what's going on here-

Joe Rogan 52:15 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 52:15 ... in a way that I found kind of amazing. Like, genuinely, actually gerrymandering in Virginia. I was like, "What?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:22 I would move over there.

Bari Weiss 52:23 Don't you have news going on over here?

Joe Rogan 52:25 A lot, you know, a lot of comedians-

Bari Weiss 52:26 But the answer is sort of no. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:28 Comedians move over there. They move over there and become huge in Australia.

Bari Weiss 52:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:32 Shout out to my friend Arj Barker. He's out there. He's huge, gigantic over there. Like, a lot of people don't know him here. In Australia, he's like, like Jerry Seinfeld. Huge, enormous.

Bari Weiss 52:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:42 Sells out huge auditoriums.

Bari Weiss 52:44 But that's because when a giant American celebrity comes over, they're just gonna sell out everything-

Joe Rogan 52:49 No.

Bari Weiss 52:49 ... because that's the only game in town, no?

Joe Rogan 52:50 He's not a giant American celebrity. He's an Australian celebrity.

Bari Weiss 52:53 Jerry Seinfeld?

Joe Rogan 52:54 No. Arj Barker.

Bari Weiss 52:55 Oh. Oh, I thought we were talking about Jerry Seinfeld.

Joe Rogan 52:56 No.

Bari Weiss 52:56 I'm like, "Uh-"

Joe Rogan 52:56 Jerry Seinfeld is all the world. (laughs)

Bari Weiss 52:58 "Joe, I think you're wrong."

Joe Rogan 52:59 Yeah. No.

Bari Weiss 52:59 I know you're into, like, alternative media platforms-

Joe Rogan 53:02 No. No. No. No.

Bari Weiss 53:02 ... but I think people know who Seinfeld is. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:04 No. Arj Barker.

Bari Weiss 53:05 I've never heard of him.

Joe Rogan 53:06 There you go.

Bari Weiss 53:06 So there you go. He's huge in Australia.

Joe Rogan 53:08 If y- when I talk to Australians and they're like, "Oh, you're a stand-up comedian. You know Arj Barker?"

Bari Weiss 53:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:13 They're, they're gonna be mad at me. Like Adam Green tree's gonna be pissed right ... "That fucking Australian accent's terrible, bro."

Bari Weiss 53:18 It is bad.

Joe Rogan 53:18 It's not good.

Bari Weiss 53:19 I don't even try.

Joe Rogan 53:20 Um, but-

Bari Weiss 53:21 Have, have you been following the Women's March stuff at all or no?

Joe Rogan 53:24 Yes. Yes, I have. Yeah. The, uh, antisemitic stuff.

Bari Weiss 53:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Yeah. Yeah. Fucking groups. You know, when you have a group, you, you have a group of people and then you have-

Bari Weiss 53:35 But that looks a little bit to me, uh, related to the what happened at the Lincoln Memorial, right? Where you had these, you know, the leadership of the Women's March, which looked like a Shepard Fairey poster come to life, like they were just perfect. You had the ... Linda Sarsour in her hijab, you had Tamika Mallory-

Joe Rogan 53:52 Explain to people what's going on.

Bari Weiss 53:53 Well, what's going on is that back in August 2017, I wrote a column called When Progressives Embrace Hate, and it was saying I was super moved by the Women's March, as so many other women I know were, but let's look at some of the very troubling ideas and associations that the people who are in char- the leadership of the Women's March have. Namely, um, the worst of the worst was, um, Tamika Mallory, who had been a gun rights activist beforehand. Um, she called Louis Farrakhan the GOAT, the greatest of all time. She took lots of Instagram pictures. We- you should check this. But she, you know, praised him. It wasn't like a casual acquaintance. She praised him as the greatest of all time. And yet, she was treated to glowing profiles in every women's magazine, uh, her and, and the rest of the leadership. And I basically said, like, let's look past, you know, the Benetton ad of these leaders and actually look at what they believe. And what they believe, some of them, is extremely disturbing, especially when it comes to Jews. So I write this column and I'm, like, pilloried for it by the left. One of the leaders of the Women's March, this woman, Bob Bland, wrote this letter to the New York Times where she calls me ... um, it was amazing. I wanna find what it was. Oh, she calls me, "An apologist for the status quo, racist ideology and the white nationalist patriarchy."

Joe Rogan 55:20 Because you responded to someone who-

Bari Weiss 55:22 Because I said-

Joe Rogan 55:22 ... said the greatest of all time-

Bari Weiss 55:24 Is a man-

Joe Rogan 55:25 ... is ... thinks that Jewish termites.

Bari Weiss 55:27 ... who calls Judaism ... who calls Jews termites, who calls Judaism a gutter religion-

Joe Rogan 55:30 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 55:30 ... who says that we should burn in ovens-

Joe Rogan 55:32 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 55:32 ... and who, by the way, is a misogynist homophobe also.... the leaders of the Women's March are associating with this guy and had the Nation of Islam security protecting them. I mean, this is, like, the most sort of retrograde hate group. And yet for calling them out, I was called all of these things. Now-

Joe Rogan 55:48 Why do you think that s- flies?

Bari Weiss 55:52 That's a deep question. I think that part of it is the fact that in intersectional left-wing politics, Jews have been whitewashed. Jews are viewed as sort of the white privileged power and part of the white patriarchy unless they genuflect and say, "Actually, no. We, you know, we abhor our privilege," and all of the other things that you're supposed to say. And there's a blindness to the fact-

Joe Rogan 56:19 And there's no differentiation

Narrator 56:19 Go please.

Bari Weiss 56:19 Right. And there's a blindness to the fact that, first of all, not all Jews are white. Half of the Jews in the State of Israel, for example, are Arab and from Arab countries that they were kicked out of in 1948. I mean, the idea that Jews are white is this canard, although I'm an Ashkenazi Jew. I'm f- my family's from Eastern Europe. I have white skin, but I don't think of m- And I have white privilege, but I don't think of myself as a white person. I think of myself as a Jew first and foremost. So it's a complicated identity. But I think that it's sort of, uh, it's whitewashed by these people. And I think that antisemitism just isn't taken seriously and doesn't rate because people perceive Jews as having privilege and power in this country, which largely they do. But the fact is, is that the actual statistics show that more hate crimes were committed against Jews in the past year than any other minority group. The FBI is, like, sounding the alarm. Every other day in Crown Heights and in other parts of Brooklyn, random Jews who look Jewish, right, who are Hasidic Jews, are just beaten up for being Jewish, and yet everyone's ignoring that because they're the imperfect victim.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Well, they're also very isolated. They're very ... They, they're ... They have their own tribe. They stick with them. They look different. They dress different.

Bari Weiss 57:35 Sure, but-

Joe Rogan 57:35 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 57:36 ... imagine if any other minority group, someone ... I mean, we're outraged when we see, at least I am and you are, when we see a police officer assaulting someone, you know?

Joe Rogan 57:47 What I'm saying is that-

Bari Weiss 57:47 A young Black person.

Joe Rogan 57:48 ... they don't, they don't make a big deal to go into the public about it. They keep it almost insulated inside their environment and their, their community. There's also, what I was gonna say is th- they d- these people that are, that you, you do hear saying antisemitic things, they're equating American Jews living in America with the policies of Israel and what Israel's doing with Palestine, and that somehow or if you're an American Jew, even if you're not even political, you're somehow or another complicit with atrocities that are going on between the Jewish people and the Palestinians.

Bari Weiss 58:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Or conflict, any kind of conflict. And th- this makes it, uh, it reinforces their idea about you being a part of this-

Bari Weiss 58:31 Right, but they s-

Joe Rogan 58:31 ... white privileged group.

Bari Weiss 58:32 Yes, but they also straw man it and say, "Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitic."

Joe Rogan 58:36 Yes.

Bari Weiss 58:37 No one's saying that criticism is r-

Joe Rogan 58:38 Right.

Bari Weiss 58:38 ... of Israel is antisemitic. I criticize Israel all the time. But there's an obsession on the State of Israel, like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that's the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing about the genoc- generally about the genocide of Uyghur Muslims in China. They say nothing about any number of-

Joe Rogan 59:01 I'm not even aware of that.

Bari Weiss 59:03 Oh, there's a genocide going on carried out by the government of China against Uyghur Muslims. They're literally being put into concentration camps.

Joe Rogan 59:11 This is, uh, literally a first I've heard of this.

Bari Weiss 59:12 Uh, so Uyghur is spelled-

Joe Rogan 59:14 Wh-

Bari Weiss 59:14 ... U-I-G-H-U-R.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Where's, uh ... What is a good thing to read about this?

Bari Weiss 59:19 The New York Times. The- we've reported on it. It's a, it's an enormous story, and it's like the fact that that's getting noo- that you don't know about it-

Joe Rogan 59:30 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 59:30 ... and that people obsessively talk about the State of Israel as if it's the w- And by the way, the State of Israel does lots of things wrong, but the idea that it's among the worst human rights tragedies of our time, are you kidding me? It's insanity.

Joe Rogan 59:47 I don't know the reality of what is going on in Gaza. I don't know what is happening with Israel and Palestine. I don't know, so I'm not-

Bari Weiss 59:55 W- well, it's-

Joe Rogan 59:55 ... gonna be the person that talks about this. But what I do know-

Bari Weiss 59:58 I can send you some stuff to read.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 But I do know from people that have gone there, like Abby Martin, who, who came back with some pretty horrific stories, I think there's a lot of terrible shit going on. There's a, uh, a lot of awful violence, and there's a lot of despair on the side of the Palestinians. And I don't, I, I don't know who's to blame for that, but many people blame the Israelis. They blame the Israelis for treating the Palestinians as if they're in this one area of the world that's essentially a large prison.

Bari Weiss 1:00:26 Well, lots to say about this, but I think one of the main problems that we have in the way that Israel is covered is that if you have a camera lens and you're only looking at a tiny piece of land, right, you're only looking at Israel proper, the West Bank and Gaza-

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:00:45 ... Israel, to some extent, is the Goliath in that situation. But if you zoom out your camera just a little, you see that Israel is literally surrounded on all sides by genocidal regimes, like in the form of Hamas in Gaza, whose charter blames the Jews for fomenting the French revolutions, the Russian revolutions, both World Wars, and says that it wants to kill all the Jews. That's what ... That's the government of Gaza right now. I spoke to a mother, um, who fled Gaza recently, okay? And her family's house was just destroyed. Who was it destroyed by? Hamas, not Israel. You never hear those stories. So I'm just saying it is a very complicated politics, but when you see people obsessively focusing on this one state and the crimes of this one state to the exclusion of actual dictatorships in the world who are killing their own people-You have to be suspicious of that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 You do have to be suspicious. And you do have to be aware of their position in the world, surrounded by Arab states. You- you do have to realize that they are ... you know, they're- they're alone out there.

Bari Weiss 1:01:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 You- you also ... I do wonder, what is the motivation for so many people focusing on Jews? What is it? Like, what do you think it is, as a Jewish person? What do you think the motivation for this kind of racism and discrimination against Jews, and why is it tolerated? Why- why can someone like Louis Farrakhan tweet that Jews are termites, and his Twitter account stays up?

Bari Weiss 1:02:21 Well, it's the oldest hatred in the world, right? A lot of it-

Joe Rogan 1:02:24 Is that what it is?

Bari Weiss 1:02:25 No, no, no. You're asking me why is it still with us? It's like the mystery of history.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:02:29 Like, that is- that is deep. I mean, that is something that goes back to the New Testament.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:02:34 Okay? The Jews were blamed in the Book of John and Mar- I mean, we could go to Matthew, for the death of Jesus. Their role in that story, at least according to some of the books, is that they convinced the most powerful empire at the time, the Roman Empire, in the form of the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, to kill the son of God. That becomes sort of a template for the antisemitic conspiracy theory. There's- there's a confusion about what antisemitism is, right? It's not just a hate. It's not just, like, this hate of a group. Racists perceive themselves as punching down against a group that's lesser. Antisemites perceive themselves as punching up-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:03:15 ... against a secret cabal of wily operators who secretly control the levers of power. That is the canard of antisemitism and that begins with this group that's able, somehow, to get the Roman Empire to kill Jesus. Now, the Catholic Church disavows this in 1965, uh, which was, you know, an enormous historical event. But that template is still there, and you see it play out, right, in who- who led us into the war in Iraq? Ah, it was the Jews of the Bush administration. You can see it play itself out-

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 Hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:03:48 ... all over the place. And right now, in the demonology of current a- contemporary antisemitism, Israel has sort of been made into the Jew among the nations. You're not allowed to say anymore ... It ... Like, the old school antisemitism, right? Like, I grew up in a place where there were some country clubs where Jews couldn't go into them. That, frankly, that's not dangerous. What's dangerous is the kind of antisemitism that says, "You know, this one state in the world of all of the almost 200 states? That's the one that doesn't have the right to exist. That's the one that should be dismantled." That's actually dangerous to Jewish lives right now.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 It is, um, it's an unusual group in that it is both a religion and a tribe.

Bari Weiss 1:04:26 Yes. It makes us very hard to understand in the contemporary landscape, 'cause we are not just a religion.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 There's nothing else like it-

Bari Weiss 1:04:33 Nope.

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 ... 'cause most Jews that I know do not practice Judaism.

Bari Weiss 1:04:37 Right, and yet they-

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 But they consider themselves Jews.

Bari Weiss 1:04:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 1:04:39 Because we were a peoplehood before we were-

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 1:04:41 ... a religion.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 1:04:43 Religion is a very contemporary, modern thing that Jews are sort of slotted into, and it makes us easier to understand. But then, our n- our sort of national identity, our peoplehood, our tribalism is left out.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 Yeah.

Bari Weiss 1:04:57 And that's an essential part of who the Jews are.

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 My friend, Ari Shaffir, who's a fantastic stand-up comedian, he's a rabid atheist, but he's also very Jewish. And he has a- a new hour that he's working on right now that he's gonna film called Jew.

Bari Weiss 1:05:12 (laughs) Really?

Joe Rogan 1:05:12 And he's an atheist.

Bari Weiss 1:05:13 I wanna see it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Yeah, it's great. But he's ... You know, he's a perfect example. It is a tribe-

Bari Weiss 1:05:18 But that's also-

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 ... it's not just a religion.

Bari Weiss 1:05:20 But it's also because the Jewish religion itself, the emphasis is- the emphasis is not on what you believe. The emphasis is on- is- is on deeds. It almost doesn't matter what you believe. It matters that you f- follow halakha, which is Jewish law. It ma- it matters your deeds, it matters all these things. So, it's possible to be a good Jew-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:05:43 ... and not really think about God that much, which is very strange, I understand, to Christian ears.

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 Right, or you go full Ben Shapiro, where he's both a good Jew and very much, like, follows the whole deal. Wears the yarmulke-

Bari Weiss 1:05:55 He follows the whole deal.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 The whole deal. Um, why do you say-

Bari Weiss 1:05:58 But I- I think ... Sorry, can I say one more thing?

Joe Rogan 1:06:00 No, please, please.

Bari Weiss 1:06:01 I just find it, like, kind of astonishing, the blindness to this, because imagine a leader of the Women's March said something like, "You know, I think Louis C.K. is the greatest comedian of all time, even though I disavow X, Y, and Z thing that he did." How fast till that person was kicked out of the leadership of the Women's March? It would be, like, minutes, hours.

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 Do you think?

Bari Weiss 1:06:23 Yes. I think there are certain things that get people outraged and other, much worse things that do not. And I'm fascinated by why that is.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 Do you think that if it was a white person that had this opinion about the Jews, that it would be more scrutinized?

Bari Weiss 1:06:41 I think that it is much easier to fight antisemitism when it comes in the form of Richard Spencer, yes.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Yes.

Bari Weiss 1:06:46 Because then there's liberal consensus, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:50 Yes.

Bari Weiss 1:06:51 About him. He's that-

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 And there's also, you have a green light to criticize.

Bari Weiss 1:06:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 It's very ... You- you- criticizing a person of color-

Bari Weiss 1:06:55 It is much harder when- when an a- ... Exactly. It's much harder when someone like Ilhan Omar, the new freshman senator, uh ... Sorry, not senator. The new freshman congresswoman from Minnesota who's like this incredible American dream story, comes here at 12 years old, refugee from Somalia, wears a hijab, is a mother, is the first woman of color representing Minnesota. Like, obviously, I wanna cheer her. That's my reaction to her. And yet, she has this tweet that she refuses to apologize for where she says, "Israel has hypnotized the world. May Allah awaken the world to the evil doings of Israel." I'm sorry, that's a classically antisemitic trope, even if she said it unwittingly. And by this point, she should've known. She should educate herself. So, it's very ... It's much harder, um, to criticize-

Joe Rogan 1:07:43 It's also-

Bari Weiss 1:07:43 ... that, but it's- it's an untenable position to say that you can't criticize someone for their ideas because of their identity.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 It also seems like-

Bari Weiss 1:07:50 It's like a road to nowhere.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 ... if you're gonna say that, that is a very vague thing to say. You should be incredibly specific.If you want to say it's evil, you should say what's evil, and then open that up to some sort of a discussion or debate.

Bari Weiss 1:08:02 But ascr-

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 What is evil?

Bari Weiss 1:08:03 But ascribing-

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 A general-

Bari Weiss 1:08:05 ... supernatural-

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:08:06 ... evil powers to-

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:08:08 ... a state is very much recalling c- classic antisemitic canards.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:08:14 So that I re- I wrote a piece about this today trying to, like, explain that to people.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 Yes. I saw the piece.

Bari Weiss 1:08:18 Because she went on CNN saying, "I don't know how Jewish Americans could be offended by this," which I think is incredible.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Yeah. What do you think ... if, I mean, if you want to be objective as, I mean, step outside of your Jewish identity, what do you think is wrong with how Israel is dealing with the Palestinian situation?

Bari Weiss 1:08:38 exhales ]

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Because this is the big criticism of Israel, the only criticism. Really, that's the big one. The big one is Gaza and Palestine. So what do you think they're doing wrong?

Bari Weiss 1:08:48 Palestine, meaning the West Bank.

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 Yes.

Bari Weiss 1:08:50 Well, I would say what th- the untenable position that they're in is that they are occupying another people. That is what is going on in the West Bank, and I've been there many times, met with many Palestinians. I've really educated myself on this. The problem is, is that ... And by the way, it's not all of Palestine, there's i- uh- sorry, all of the West Bank, there's areas A, B and C. It's a m- really go, like, we have to pull up a map. It's a pretty complicated thing. There are places where it's much more autonomous, uh, and the PA is in charge. And it, it really varies depending on the area. So y- the big criticism, right, is that they're occupying another people, and that is corrosive to the state of Israel sort of morally, like, to, to occupying other people. On the other hand, what happens if they pull out of the West Bank tomorrow, right? I'm for a two-state solution, ultimately ending the occupation. But if I'm real, I have to be honest about what that would look like. What would it look like in Gaza is that now you have a terrorist state let right at the border, which is ruled by Hamas. It is quite likely that that very same thing could happen in the West Bank. Now, let's say ... I act- we actually should pull up a map.

Joe Rogan 1:09:59 Okay.

Bari Weiss 1:09:59 Let, let's say Israel does that. Then, like, the whole of Israel proper is something like ... S- we have to look s- f- th- two miles wide.

Joe Rogan 1:10:08 Can we see it? Yes.

Bari Weiss 1:10:09 We actually ... Yeah, we should look at the, the distance between, like, Tulkarm or, like, the end of the West Bank and Netanya or Tel Aviv and you see how small that is.

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 Mm-hmm.

Bari Weiss 1:10:20 I mean, it's hard to even conceive of it. If you're in charge of protecting the security of the people who live in places, which by the way, 10 years ago, when in the year after high school when I was living there, there were suicide bombings blowing up in cafes around the corner from where I lived, are you gonna subject those people to that risk? I mean, that's the r- that's the actual question facing the government of Israel, which, by the way, I'm extremely critical of. And if I lived in Israel, I'd be voting, you know, center left in Israel for sure. But that is what they're facing. And then if you zoom out and you s- pull up a map of all of the countries around it, I just want ... Like, look.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 Uh, that's too old. Sorry.

Bari Weiss 1:11:03 No, it's okay. Actually, the one you were on was good because it showed, if you z- zoomed out, it had everything. So you have Egypt there, then you have Jordan, which is teetering, then you have Syria, then you have Lebanon, and Hezbollah's on the, the southern border of Lebanon, which is constantly ... which, you know. So that's th- the real thing. So when people talk about this fantasy of, "Why can't it just look like America? Why can't there just be a democratic one-state solution?" First of all, no one there wants it. They pull people constantly. But the second thing is like, is that really what that's gonna look like if we dismantle the state of Israel, or is it gonna look like enormous bloodshed? The likes of which we see in a lot of these countries surrounding it. Like, someone once said to me that if you want to know the word for, you know, a Jew without a military, it's the Yazidis. Okay? It's the Yazidis. It's the people, it's the minorities in the Middle East who have been absolutely destroyed and overrun. And this is like, it's ... I don't think when Americans talk about this part of the world they fully appreciate the sort of absolutely painful and hard decisions and the grappling with violence, really. You know, what happened to Jamal Khashoggi in that Saudi embassy, that's like normative for this part of the world. So the fact that Israel has somehow, with all of its flaws, managed to eke out a Western-style liberal democracy, frankly the only place where you and I would feel happy and comfortable living, like, why are we never talking about that?

Joe Rogan 1:12:37 Well, I think it's very difficult for people to find the forum to discuss it the way you just did and to t- to really l- lay it out in cold, stark reality. Pss- What is the solution? What is the solution? I mean, is there s- i- i- is-

Bari Weiss 1:12:53 There is no magic.

Joe Rogan 1:12:54 Right.

Bari Weiss 1:12:54 The solution right now is to do everything possible to build up the Palestinian economy, to, for Israel to build relationships. Like right now, it has very, very positive relationships with Egypt, which it gave back the Sinai, which it had won in the