Joe Rogan Experience #1228 - Bari Weiss

1. 0:02 – 1:24

   Covington MAGA-hat controversy as a case study in outrage culture

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      Four, three, two, one. (hand slaps) Hello, Bari.

   2. BWBari Weiss0:08

      Hi, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      And now we're live. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it.

   4. BWBari Weiss0:11

      Thanks for having me.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      It's, uh, very fortuitous. Your timing comes right in the middle of this big hubbub about, um, this, uh, Native American elder and this young boy with one of those stupid fucking red hats on.

   6. BWBari Weiss0:25

      Yep.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:26

      That... Y- y- would you have ever imagined that a slogan like "Make America Great Again" would be so divisive? That somehow or another, like, that-

   8. BWBari Weiss0:34

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:34

      That would be... Like, "Make America Great Again." Well sounds like they just wanna make things great, like-

   10. BWBari Weiss0:38

       No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       ... all positive. (laughs)

   12. BWBari Weiss0:40

       No.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       You know?

   14. BWBari Weiss0:40

       No.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       And a red hat with white letters. Has there ever been a time like that where a- a- an object, like a red hat with white letters, was so repulsive to half the country?

   16. BWBari Weiss0:50

       Yes. Well, I mean, some people see it as the equivalent of a white hood.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Wow. I don't know about that. I think that's-

   18. BWBari Weiss0:58

       They do. No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       I- I- I believe they do.

   20. BWBari Weiss1:00

       They do. They believe-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01

       I believe they do, but I think they're being ridiculous.

   22. BWBari Weiss1:01

       ... that wearing it at... Wearing it... That a 16-year-old wearing that hat-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BWBari Weiss1:05

       ... sort of carries intense moral weight. That surely we know that a 16-year-old is not aware of all of the implications of wearing that hat.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       Well yeah, but the problem with that is Kanye wears it.

   26. BWBari Weiss1:15

       Right. Fair enough.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       So, it doesn't really work.

   28. BWBari Weiss1:17

       I agree. I'm just saying-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       You know?

   30. BWBari Weiss1:18

       ... there are people who really make that argument.
2. 1:24 – 5:58

   Journalistic failure: the full video, missing context, and the doxing spiral

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      Well, yeah. Well, there's also people that are calling for this child's name and address. They're calling to dox him and publicly expose him. This is a child. He's 16? Is that what he is?

   2. BWBari Weiss1:34

      He's 16 years old. And, uh, e- it... One of the things that was just so amazing about the whole brouhaha around it... I mean, it was in a way like this perfect encapsulation of our outrage culture, right? Because people saw a tiny clip of this video.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:50

      Yes.

   4. BWBari Weiss1:51

      And it was like a Rorschach test.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:52

      Yeah.

   6. BWBari Weiss1:52

      You saw in it this morality play of, what- what it looked to be was a group of mostly white kids from Coventry Catholic School, I think it's in Kentucky. And it looked like, at first glance, that they were smirking and smug and had these sort of shit-eating grins on their faces and that they were surrounding this older Native American man. And I have to tell you, I had a visceral reaction to it the second I saw it, like so many other people.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      I did as well.

   8. BWBari Weiss2:19

      I was like, "This is, you know, where we are in our broken culture, and they're bullying this guy, and here's the rise of the r-" I had all of those reactions. The challenge of what it means to be a journalist is to not see people as signifiers or as stand-ins just based on their identity. And that's what like 94 pers- 95% of the press corps did. They sort of leapt to... They leaped to assume that, you know, w- our visceral reaction was accurate, when in fact, when you actually looked at, like, the two-hour video of the whole interaction, which also included this group of black Israelites, or Hebrew Israelites they call themselves, it was not that at all. The- the Native American man had walked up to this group. The four other guys had been heckling the group beforehand, calling them crackers, calling them Satan, calling the one black kid in the group things that can't even be said. So it was just far more complicated. Um, and what- what was really, really disheartening is that the out- the initial outrage was enough for the mainstream press to report on it. Like, Twitter has kind of become almost an assigning editor for places like The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal. And then, when the actual truth of the thing comes out, when we move past the outrage cycle, they have to sort of write the follow-up story to the fake outrage to begin with. Um...

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:47

      Defending the fake outrage instead of backing up and saying, "We made a mistake." This- this kid-

   10. BWBari Weiss3:52

       Right. Well some, some people said that they made a mistake.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:54

       That's wonderful. Oh, that's a good sign.

   12. BWBari Weiss3:56

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:56

       It really is.

   14. BWBari Weiss3:57

       But one of the things that was so horrifying was that people that are supposed to be adults, you know, people with blue check marks on Twitter, were saying things like, "This is the face of white patriarchy," the 16-year-old kid.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:11

       Or what Raise Aslan said.

   16. BWBari Weiss4:13

       This... Yeah. Or Raise Aslan said-

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:14

       "This is... Have you ever seen more?" Yeah.

   18. BWBari Weiss4:14

       "Have you ever seen a more punchable face?" Kathy Griffin was saying, "I need names. Shame him. Dox him." How do these people not understand the implications of that? So what happened over the weekend was that the, you know, sleuthy detectives on Twitter found a kid who they thought was the kid in the video, wasn't actually the kid. So there's the actual kid who was doxed, the family was harassed, everything that we now know happens in these outrage cycles. But then there was another kid who looked suspiciously like him who was not him at all, whose family... There's an amazing and heartbreaking Twitter thread about it. Whose family was in the middle of a family wedding and they had to spend their whole weekend fighting off these mobs who were trying to destroy them. And it wasn't even the kid in the video. I mean, that is really horrifying to me, that that's where we are. And the fact that adults who should know better are fomenting this and don't see how thin, like the ven- like s- (laughs) it sounds heavy, but like the veneer of civilization is. Like they're taking a pickax to it. It's just... I- I just found the whole thing to be terrifying. I don't know how you felt.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:26

       I felt exactly the same way. Uh, I think it's a very unique moment because it's so public and it's so... it's so prevalent. And wh- whether it's Twitter or Facebook, it's everywhere. And it sort of embodies everything that's wrong with a lack of nuance and with people taking one side versus the other and sticking with it, with not confronting their own personal biases, with looking at these things through the, uh, eyes of, "This is the enemy. I'm on the good side, they're on the bad side."

   20. BWBari Weiss5:58

       Yes.

3. 5:58 – 10:21

   “Punch Nazis” and the hollowing out of language

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:58

      "Let's get them." And also, this- th- this distorted idea of what it takes to...... what it takes to be violent, like this idea of this is a punchable person, like calling for violence. You, you, you're hearing a lot of this. Like, this is one of the things that troubles me so much about the left. My par- my parents were hippies. Um, you know, I grew up, when I was a little kid, we lived from age of 7 to 11 in San Francisco during the Vietnam War. While the Vietnam War was ending, I was living in the middle of the hippie world. I always felt that people on the left were like these well-read, kind, compassionate people. But somewhere along the line, within the last few years, people on the left are calling for violence. This is very, this is very confusing to me, and it's, it's this frivolous social media call for violence. It's not an in-person, be there, boots on the ground call for... It's a very strange call for violence. "Punch Nazis." I'm hearing this all the time.

   2. BWBari Weiss7:02

      Because it's-

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:03

      Right, but-

   4. BWBari Weiss7:03

      ... because it's... Sorry, go ahead.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:05

      What I'm gonna say is, what is a Nazi? Okay, so if you mean punch actual Nazis that are putting Jews into concentration camps, I'm with you. But when you call a guy with a MAGA hat on, he wears one of those red hats and he's just an asshole, he, he's a Nazi now? Some guy who maybe is not that educated-

   6. BWBari Weiss7:23

      (laughs) But we're, but-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:24

      ... wants to be a contrarian, sees all these liberals that are complaining all the time, so he puts this red hat on, and now he's a white supremacist and a Nazi, and you want to punch him? Like, okay, this-

   8. BWBari Weiss7:34

      But that's what a lot of people in very high positions of power in this country, at least in the culture, actually believe. And they don't understand the implications of hollowing out words like that.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:45

      Yes.

   10. BWBari Weiss7:46

       I know this personally, right? 'Cause I'm called alt-right, um, I'm called an apologist for rape culture. I've been called everything. I'm a centrist, okay? I'm (laughs) I'm a Jewish, center-left on most things, person who lives on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and, you know, is super socially liberal, liberal on pretty much any issue you want to choose. If I'm alt-right, what d- what words do we have left for people that actually are that?

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:14

       Exactly.

   12. BWBari Weiss8:14

       What words do we have left for people who actually are part of a sort of racist blood and soil nativism that's rising in this country and around the world, that should terrify people that are using that language in the sloppiest of ways?

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:28

       Yes.

   14. BWBari Weiss8:29

       I really don't think they're seeing the implications of it. I also think that when, when you're just, you know, you're a keyboard warrior and you're just tossing this stuff out, so much of it is about signaling to your tribe that you know that this thing is bad.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:44

       Yes.

   16. BWBari Weiss8:45

       And I really don't think people are understanding the implications of this. And I don't think it's a stretch to imagine something like this happening a week, two weeks, a month, two months from now, and someone actually getting killed.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:59

       Right. Like Charlottesville. I mean, very, very similar to what happened there. This, this, this kind of... I mean, when that guy drove over those protesters, the ramping up of the dialogue on both sides, the rhetoric, the violent talk, it's so disturbing and so unnecessary, especially when it's disingenuous, like calling someone like you alt-right. Or me. I, I get called alt-right adjacent. That's what I... I hear that one all the time.

   18. BWBari Weiss9:23

       Me too. Me too.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:24

       I, I go left on everything, basically except guns. Th- There's a few things that I-

   20. BWBari Weiss9:28

       Right. And I'm like, "Repeal the Second Amendment." (laughs) Right. But like-

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:31

       Yeah. I mean, but I, I do think that there should be some restrictions for gun use, just like I think there should be restrictions for car use. I actually think there should be testing for guns and you should have to go... Look, you have to go through a fucking... You have to take driver's ed to get a car license.

   22. BWBari Weiss9:47

       Of course.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       How come you don't have to do any... You know, you don't have to do anything to get a gun. Like, you... Once... If you're not a criminal, you just get a gun. Like, you don't have to know how to take care of it and clean it and sa- safely handle it. You don't have to know the ethics of use. You don't have to know anything.

   24. BWBari Weiss10:01

       I know. It's insane.

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:02

       It's weird.

   26. BWBari Weiss10:02

       I mean, and I just spent six weeks in Australia, where (laughs) -

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:06

       Yeah.

   28. BWBari Weiss10:06

       ... they had basically one major massacre 20 years ago, and then, uh... I forget who it was. We could look it up. But, you know, Prime Minister, Conservative, got rid of guns.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:15

       Yes.

   30. BWBari Weiss10:16

       Everywhere in the country.
4. 10:21 – 17:31

   Empathy, adolescence, and why the story shouldn’t have been ‘news’

   1. BWBari Weiss10:21

      The thing also... One other thing that, that st- jumped out to me about the, the Catholic school boy incident, it kind of signifies something broader that's happening, which is the erasure of the individual, which is just, I think, a horrifying problem in our culture. Like, what actually happened was a one-hour incident on a random afternoon in January between a group of individuals, right? But instead, in our mind-

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:49

      Why, why was everyone there? Th- There was... This is the March for Life?

   3. BWBari Weiss10:52

      Well, the, the boys were there for the March for Life.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:54

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BWBari Weiss10:54

      Um, I don't know why the Hebrew Israelites were there, but it's DC. Like, there are crazy protesters-

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:00

      Right.

   7. BWBari Weiss11:00

      ... all the time, you know?

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:02

      Right.

   9. BWBari Weiss11:02

      At the Lincoln Memorial and outside of the White House.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:03

       And the boys were there for a school event? Is that what it was?

   11. BWBari Weiss11:05

       They were there for the March for Life as part of their school, and they had like been... Had free time, I think, and then were sort of converging at the Lincoln Memorial.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       And they didn't have a chaperone? There's no-

   13. BWBari Weiss11:16

       No, I think the teachers... Uh, there was a teacher there, and they had asked the teacher at one point, in order to drown out the heckling of the Hebrew Israelites, I hope I'm getting the name of that group right, "Could we do a school cheer to kind of ignore them?" Um, and they did that, and I think they did that with permission from the teachers. At one point early on, it was rumored that they were chanting, "Build the wall," but no one has surfaced any evidence of that whatsoever.

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       Well, that's what I heard from the Native American elder when he was talking about it in a vi- in a video. He said, "They were chanting out, 'Build that wall, build that wall.'"

   15. BWBari Weiss11:46

       And maybe they were. I just haven't seen anything-

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       Yeah.

   17. BWBari Weiss11:48

       ... and I've watched every video.

   18. JRJoe Rogan11:49

       It's totally possible. They're also 16, right?

   19. BWBari Weiss11:52

       Right. Let- Right. So let's say-

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       And they're also trying to make their friends laugh, and they're assholes, and they're just being silly and stupid.

   21. BWBari Weiss11:57

       Right. And I have to say, as like someone who was a total nerd in high school, I saw the face of the main kid in that still photograph and that video, and I... Like, the, the 14- and 15-year-old girl in me was like enraged.

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:12

       Yeah.

   23. BWBari Weiss12:12

       Really. Like, I was like, "I see the face of so many kids who said the nastiest things to me and who..."... threw friends of mine into garbage cans, like the, like disgusting bullying.

   24. JRJoe Rogan12:24

       Was it because he's got the hat on?

   25. BWBari Weiss12:25

       But the thing is you have to get to the next step. If you're a jour-... No, it was, it was... Yeah. Oh, for sure.

   26. JRJoe Rogan12:30

       Right. But if he's just standing there-

   27. BWBari Weiss12:31

       It's the hat, it's the face-

   28. JRJoe Rogan12:32

       ... and he doesn't have the hat on-

   29. BWBari Weiss12:34

       Maybe even still if it's a group.

   30. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       But he... uh, but here's-
5. 17:31 – 26:32

   Road rage on the internet: speed, incentives, and cancellation logic

   1. BWBari Weiss17:31

      Mm-hmm.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:31

      ... that there's things that are happening right now, like the government shutdown, and then there's things that are happening right now in terms of our culture shifting. And when these things that come up in opposition to what many people believe is a beneficial shift to a more progressive, more responsible culture, when these little hiccups, they get addressed, and they get addressed rapidly. And I think it's because people are aware that things are changing in this v- almost, like, uh, unprecedented way. If you look back at-

   3. BWBari Weiss18:05

      Yeah, unprecedented pace. I agree with that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:07

      Yeah. Like nothing we've ever ex- there's nothing that you can find in the historical record for human beings has ever been what we've experienced over just the past 10-plus years of social, um, social networks and social media, and the ability to spread information very quickly with a YouTube video or a tweet or whatever. Where these, these, um...

   5. BWBari Weiss18:27

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:28

      The way people are exchanging information is just very different. And because of that, culture is shifting at a hyperspace speed. It's just...... eh, turbo-charged, for sure. So I think when something comes up that we think is like, "Ah, there's one! Get it."

   7. BWBari Weiss18:43

      Exactly.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:44

      But it's not logical. It's like, it's like road rage. You know why you get road rage, one of the reasons? Because you're going fast. Okay, you're in a car and you're nervous. Your, your heightened senses, so anything that happens, it gets magnified. Like someone says, "You motherfucker in my lane!"

   9. BWBari Weiss18:58

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:58

       "Fuck you! Honk, honk!"

   11. BWBari Weiss19:00

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       'Cause you're already jacked up to eight because you're in a car going 60 miles an hour.

   13. BWBari Weiss19:04

       Wait, Twitter does that emotionally for us.

   14. JRJoe Rogan19:05

       Twitter's doing that.

   15. BWBari Weiss19:06

       100%.

   16. JRJoe Rogan19:06

       And social media's doing that. Life is doing that. This ... So when something like this comes up, this rapid pace of change which is almost in- impossible to keep up with, right? With the news cycle and this constant wave of change and information. So when something comes up, people are road raging on this kid.

   17. BWBari Weiss19:24

       Totally. That's why we just have to ... I mean, there's, there's lots of things to say, but one thing is just continue to insist on truth and facts.

   18. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       Yes.

   19. BWBari Weiss19:34

       And not allowing people to be stand-ins for a group. You're not a stand-in for anyone. You're yourself. You answer for yourself. And I just, I find that trend on both sides really, really scary.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:45

       It's because people are insecure. And, you know, I think for someone like Kathy who's experienced ... Kathy Griffin who's experienced that public shaming-

   21. BWBari Weiss19:54

       She's ... Right. That amazes me, right? Like, she's been publicly shamed herself in the most horrific way, has ha- basically had to live underground and now she's saying, "Shame him, name him, and dox him"?

   22. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       I think it reinforces-

   23. BWBari Weiss20:06

       I don't understand that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan20:08

       It reinforces people's idea that they should be more, uh, more committed to their side, more committed to their team. The only way you're gonna get any support if you have been attacked and isolated and out alone is to get back deep, deep into the team again. Like how do you get back deep into the team again? You gotta be f- fucking rabid.

   25. BWBari Weiss20:26

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:26

       You know? And that's part of it. It's a, it's a natural reaction that people have to sort of signal to everyone else on the team they're all in. They're fully committed. They don't even care about their fucking career. "I'm an activist."

   27. BWBari Weiss20:37

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:37

       Like that kind of shit happens, and it's, it's people that want love. That's what a lot of it is.

   29. BWBari Weiss20:42

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan20:42

       It's ... They, they do recognize that there's something wrong. They, they are reacting to a real thing. I'm not denying that. But I am saying that the, the reason, the overwhelming reason, the motivation for this kind of o- overzealous reaction is often a signaling thing. It's ... They wanna let everybody know-
6. 26:32 – 44:59

   Deplatforming, trolls, and ‘gateway to the alt-right’ arguments

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:32

      socialist ideologies. Like, "Fuck that grossness." And the same thing could be said for someone ... Like, I'll ... I'm gonna send you something, Jamie. This is a real, uh, poster that ANTIFA is sending, um ... They're- they were putting on, um, on wa- ... on walls and, and fenceposts and shit in, uh, the Pacific Northwest. And, uh, it's actually kind of hilarious, 'cause it's so stupid. I'm gonna s-

   2. BWBari Weiss26:56

      How do I see it?

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:56

      I'm gonna- I'm gonna send it to Jamie.

   4. BWBari Weiss26:58

      Oh, cool.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:58

      And Jamie's gonna put it up on the screen here. But, uh, it, it says, uh ... Oops. Wrong, wrong Jamie. Sorry, Jamie Kilstein.

   6. BWBari Weiss27:05

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:07

      (laughs) Here you go, buddy. Oh, I just sent it. It says, "When you date a white, it's not all right." And it's like-

   8. BWBari Weiss27:14

      Oh, my God.

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:15

      ... it's telling people to not date white people.

   10. BWBari Weiss27:18

       "Propagation of whites is propagation of hatred-"

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:21

       Yes.

   12. BWBari Weiss27:21

       "... oppression, homophobia, sexism, transphobia, racism, and ableism."

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:26

       Now, if I was a s-

   14. BWBari Weiss27:26

       So, are we supposed to-

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:28

       Yes.

   16. BWBari Weiss27:28

       ... sterilize white people?

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:29

       There it is. We can see it up on the big screen so it's even grosser.

   18. BWBari Weiss27:31

       Cool. That's awesome.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:31

       'Cause it's large.

   20. BWBari Weiss27:32

       Jesus.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:32

       But, see, this is the thing. Racism is-

   22. BWBari Weiss27:36

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:36

       Racism is terrible, right? So, how do you stop racism? "Well, racism is- can only be per- perpetrated by white people." Oh. Well, th- the problem is white people. We gotta stop white people. Well, now you're racist. Like, you're literally being racist to stop rac-

   24. BWBari Weiss27:49

       Is this really everywhere? I've never seen this.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:50

       Oh. Well, the people are finding it and posting it online.

   26. BWBari Weiss27:53

       Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:54

       And someone sent it to me. Um, I don't know if it's everywhere. It's probably just one asshole, right? But-

   28. BWBari Weiss27:58

       Do you see, like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:58

       But the per- ... But the person exists.

   30. BWBari Weiss28:00

       Do-
7. 44:59 – 53:21

   Socialism, public goods, and what Australia reveals about policy norms

   1. JRJoe Rogan44:59

      a progressive viewpoint is bad. It's not even that socialism is bad. I've been thinking a lot about socialism lately, in terms of, like, what is the point if, if we get to a certain point and then our s- our hea- our heart stops beating and we, we die, uh, and you, you left behind $18 billion to your kids because you were the ultimate capitalist and you went hog wild. That's, that's a fool's path. That is a nonsense path. Like, why did you do that? Like, why didn't you try to use that money, this insane amount of wealth, and have this massive impact on, on the populous? Why, why didn't you try to, uh, uh, figure out some way-

   2. BWBari Weiss45:41

      Well, it would be your choice to.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:42

      ... for your engineer? Right, it wouldn't be a choice to. But what if the same-

   4. BWBari Weiss45:46

      And it, and it can be your choice to be Bill Gates right now.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:48

      But what if this b- Bill Gates is doing that-

   6. BWBari Weiss45:51

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:51

      ... in a lot of ways, with some of the money. He's got a lot of fucking money.

   8. BWBari Weiss45:54

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:54

      You know, if he throws a million here or there, it really ain't shit for him. I mean, he's got, like, $90 billion, whatever it is. But the point is that things like the fire department, we agree, this is a socialist thing, right? The, we, we're all chipping in.

   10. BWBari Weiss46:08

       We have public utilities.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:10

       Yes. We have public utilities. We have, uh, b- you know, people that, Parks and Recreation, people that, uh, Department of Fish and Wildlife, and, you know, uh, the, the sheriffs that-

   12. BWBari Weiss46:19

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       ... p- patrol our national forests. Like, we all chip in to pay for these things. We all agree these are important things.

   14. BWBari Weiss46:25

       Well, one of the things that was so interesting about Australia is that in certain ways it's a more ... You know, it's thought of d- as sort of a macho culture, maybe more s- masculine, a little bit more conservative than here generally. And yet, the left has won there on so many of the major issues that we're fighting, we're killing each other over now.

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       They're very good people.

   16. BWBari Weiss46:45

       Universal healthcare.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       Yeah.

   18. BWBari Weiss46:47

       Mandatory 401k. Nine th- it's like a $18 minimum wage. Pensions, four weeks of vacation a year. Like ...

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       I think they get maternity leave as well, like mom maternity leave.

   20. BWBari Weiss46:57

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:59

       Um-

   22. BWBari Weiss46:59

       It's just, like, so many of the things that here are up for grabs, they already solved.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:02

       I think we have to take two things into consideration. One, um, that they have a small population.

   24. BWBari Weiss47:08

       Small and homogenous.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:09

       Yes, and it's an enormous place. You're dealing with a place as large as the contiguous United States of America, but there's only 20 million people.

   26. BWBari Weiss47:15

       Oh, I'm aware because when they-

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:16

       Less.

   28. BWBari Weiss47:16

       ... they were like, "It's crowded in that restaurant." And I was like-

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:19

       Right.

   30. BWBari Weiss47:19

       ... "You mean I don't have to wait for an hour to get in?" Like, (laughs) they have no c-
8. 53:21 – 55:48

   Women’s March controversy: antisemitism, Farrakhan ties, and media blind spots

   1. BWBari Weiss53:21

      Have, have you been following the Women's March stuff at all or no?

   2. JRJoe Rogan53:24

      Yes. Yes, I have. Yeah. The, uh, antisemitic stuff.

   3. BWBari Weiss53:28

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan53:28

      Yeah. Yeah. Fucking groups. You know, when you have a group, you, you have a group of people and then you have-

   5. BWBari Weiss53:35

      But that looks a little bit to me, uh, related to the what happened at the Lincoln Memorial, right? Where you had these, you know, the leadership of the Women's March, which looked like a Shepard Fairey poster come to life, like they were just perfect. You had the ... Linda Sarsour in her hijab, you had Tamika Mallory-

   6. JRJoe Rogan53:52

      Explain to people what's going on.

   7. BWBari Weiss53:53

      Well, what's going on is that back in August 2017, I wrote a column called When Progressives Embrace Hate, and it was saying I was super moved by the Women's March, as so many other women I know were, but let's look at some of the very troubling ideas and associations that the people who are in char- the leadership of the Women's March have. Namely, um, the worst of the worst was, um, Tamika Mallory, who had been a gun rights activist beforehand. Um, she called Louis Farrakhan the GOAT, the greatest of all time. She took lots of Instagram pictures. We- you should check this. But she, you know, praised him. It wasn't like a casual acquaintance. She praised him as the greatest of all time. And yet, she was treated to glowing profiles in every women's magazine, uh, her and, and the rest of the leadership. And I basically said, like, let's look past, you know, the Benetton ad of these leaders and actually look at what they believe. And what they believe, some of them, is extremely disturbing, especially when it comes to Jews. So I write this column and I'm, like, pilloried for it by the left. One of the leaders of the Women's March, this woman, Bob Bland, wrote this letter to the New York Times where she calls me ... um, it was amazing. I wanna find what it was. Oh, she calls me, "An apologist for the status quo, racist ideology and the white nationalist patriarchy."

   8. JRJoe Rogan55:20

      Because you responded to someone who-

   9. BWBari Weiss55:22

      Because I said-

   10. JRJoe Rogan55:22

       ... said the greatest of all time-

   11. BWBari Weiss55:24

       Is a man-

   12. JRJoe Rogan55:25

       ... is ... thinks that Jewish termites.

   13. BWBari Weiss55:27

       ... who calls Judaism ... who calls Jews termites, who calls Judaism a gutter religion-

   14. JRJoe Rogan55:30

       Yeah.

   15. BWBari Weiss55:30

       ... who says that we should burn in ovens-

   16. JRJoe Rogan55:32

       Yeah.

   17. BWBari Weiss55:32

       ... and who, by the way, is a misogynist homophobe also.... the leaders of the Women's March are associating with this guy and had the Nation of Islam security protecting them. I mean, this is, like, the most sort of retrograde hate group. And yet for calling them out, I was called all of these things. Now-

9. 55:48 – 1:08:25

   Antisemitism and intersectionality: why Jews ‘don’t rate’ in victim hierarchies

   1. JRJoe Rogan55:48

      Why do you think that s- flies?

   2. BWBari Weiss55:52

      That's a deep question. I think that part of it is the fact that in intersectional left-wing politics, Jews have been whitewashed. Jews are viewed as sort of the white privileged power and part of the white patriarchy unless they genuflect and say, "Actually, no. We, you know, we abhor our privilege," and all of the other things that you're supposed to say. And there's a blindness to the fact-

   3. JRJoe Rogan56:19

      And there's no differentiation

   4. NANarrator56:19

      Go please.

   5. BWBari Weiss56:19

      Right. And there's a blindness to the fact that, first of all, not all Jews are white. Half of the Jews in the State of Israel, for example, are Arab and from Arab countries that they were kicked out of in 1948. I mean, the idea that Jews are white is this canard, although I'm an Ashkenazi Jew. I'm f- my family's from Eastern Europe. I have white skin, but I don't think of m- And I have white privilege, but I don't think of myself as a white person. I think of myself as a Jew first and foremost. So it's a complicated identity. But I think that it's sort of, uh, it's whitewashed by these people. And I think that antisemitism just isn't taken seriously and doesn't rate because people perceive Jews as having privilege and power in this country, which largely they do. But the fact is, is that the actual statistics show that more hate crimes were committed against Jews in the past year than any other minority group. The FBI is, like, sounding the alarm. Every other day in Crown Heights and in other parts of Brooklyn, random Jews who look Jewish, right, who are Hasidic Jews, are just beaten up for being Jewish, and yet everyone's ignoring that because they're the imperfect victim.

   6. JRJoe Rogan57:26

      Well, they're also very isolated. They're very ... They, they're ... They have their own tribe. They stick with them. They look different. They dress different.

   7. BWBari Weiss57:35

      Sure, but-

   8. JRJoe Rogan57:35

      Yeah.

   9. BWBari Weiss57:36

      ... imagine if any other minority group, someone ... I mean, we're outraged when we see, at least I am and you are, when we see a police officer assaulting someone, you know?

   10. JRJoe Rogan57:47

       What I'm saying is that-

   11. BWBari Weiss57:47

       A young Black person.

   12. JRJoe Rogan57:48

       ... they don't, they don't make a big deal to go into the public about it. They keep it almost insulated inside their environment and their, their community. There's also, what I was gonna say is th- they d- these people that are, that you, you do hear saying antisemitic things, they're equating American Jews living in America with the policies of Israel and what Israel's doing with Palestine, and that somehow or if you're an American Jew, even if you're not even political, you're somehow or another complicit with atrocities that are going on between the Jewish people and the Palestinians.

   13. BWBari Weiss58:22

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan58:22

       Or conflict, any kind of conflict. And th- this makes it, uh, it reinforces their idea about you being a part of this-

   15. BWBari Weiss58:31

       Right, but they s-

   16. JRJoe Rogan58:31

       ... white privileged group.

   17. BWBari Weiss58:32

       Yes, but they also straw man it and say, "Criticism of Israel isn't antisemitic."

   18. JRJoe Rogan58:36

       Yes.

   19. BWBari Weiss58:37

       No one's saying that criticism is r-

   20. JRJoe Rogan58:38

       Right.

   21. BWBari Weiss58:38

       ... of Israel is antisemitic. I criticize Israel all the time. But there's an obsession on the State of Israel, like if you were an alien that landed from outer space, you would think that the greatest oppressor in the world is this tiny state that's the size of New Jersey. These people say nothing about the genoc- generally about the genocide of Uyghur Muslims in China. They say nothing about any number of-

   22. JRJoe Rogan59:01

       I'm not even aware of that.

   23. BWBari Weiss59:03

       Oh, there's a genocide going on carried out by the government of China against Uyghur Muslims. They're literally being put into concentration camps.

   24. JRJoe Rogan59:11

       This is, uh, literally a first I've heard of this.

   25. BWBari Weiss59:12

       Uh, so Uyghur is spelled-

   26. JRJoe Rogan59:14

       Wh-

   27. BWBari Weiss59:14

       ... U-I-G-H-U-R.

   28. JRJoe Rogan59:17

       Where's, uh ... What is a good thing to read about this?

   29. BWBari Weiss59:19

       The New York Times. The- we've reported on it. It's a, it's an enormous story, and it's like the fact that that's getting noo- that you don't know about it-

   30. JRJoe Rogan59:30

       Yeah.
10. 1:08:25 – 1:47:45

    Israel–Palestine: occupation, security fears, and ‘zooming out’ on the region

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:25

       Yeah. What do you think ... if, I mean, if you want to be objective as, I mean, step outside of your Jewish identity, what do you think is wrong with how Israel is dealing with the Palestinian situation?

    2. BWBari Weiss1:08:38

       exhales ]

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:40

       Because this is the big criticism of Israel, the only criticism. Really, that's the big one. The big one is Gaza and Palestine. So what do you think they're doing wrong?

    4. BWBari Weiss1:08:48

       Palestine, meaning the West Bank.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:08:49

       Yes.

    6. BWBari Weiss1:08:50

       Well, I would say what th- the untenable position that they're in is that they are occupying another people. That is what is going on in the West Bank, and I've been there many times, met with many Palestinians. I've really educated myself on this. The problem is, is that ... And by the way, it's not all of Palestine, there's i- uh- sorry, all of the West Bank, there's areas A, B and C. It's a m- really go, like, we have to pull up a map. It's a pretty complicated thing. There are places where it's much more autonomous, uh, and the PA is in charge. And it, it really varies depending on the area. So y- the big criticism, right, is that they're occupying another people, and that is corrosive to the state of Israel sort of morally, like, to, to occupying other people. On the other hand, what happens if they pull out of the West Bank tomorrow, right? I'm for a two-state solution, ultimately ending the occupation. But if I'm real, I have to be honest about what that would look like. What would it look like in Gaza is that now you have a terrorist state let right at the border, which is ruled by Hamas. It is quite likely that that very same thing could happen in the West Bank. Now, let's say ... I act- we actually should pull up a map.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:59

       Okay.

    8. BWBari Weiss1:09:59

       Let, let's say Israel does that. Then, like, the whole of Israel proper is something like ... S- we have to look s- f- th- two miles wide.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:10:08

       Can we see it? Yes.

    10. BWBari Weiss1:10:09

        We actually ... Yeah, we should look at the, the distance between, like, Tulkarm or, like, the end of the West Bank and Netanya or Tel Aviv and you see how small that is.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:10:19

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BWBari Weiss1:10:20

        I mean, it's hard to even conceive of it. If you're in charge of protecting the security of the people who live in places, which by the way, 10 years ago, when in the year after high school when I was living there, there were suicide bombings blowing up in cafes around the corner from where I lived, are you gonna subject those people to that risk? I mean, that's the r- that's the actual question facing the government of Israel, which, by the way, I'm extremely critical of. And if I lived in Israel, I'd be voting, you know, center left in Israel for sure. But that is what they're facing. And then if you zoom out and you s- pull up a map of all of the countries around it, I just want ... Like, look.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:11:01

        Uh, that's too old. Sorry.

    14. BWBari Weiss1:11:03

        No, it's okay. Actually, the one you were on was good because it showed, if you z- zoomed out, it had everything. So you have Egypt there, then you have Jordan, which is teetering, then you have Syria, then you have Lebanon, and Hezbollah's on the, the southern border of Lebanon, which is constantly ... which, you know. So that's th- the real thing. So when people talk about this fantasy of, "Why can't it just look like America? Why can't there just be a democratic one-state solution?" First of all, no one there wants it. They pull people constantly. But the second thing is like, is that really what that's gonna look like if we dismantle the state of Israel, or is it gonna look like enormous bloodshed? The likes of which we see in a lot of these countries surrounding it. Like, someone once said to me that if you want to know the word for, you know, a Jew without a military, it's the Yazidis. Okay? It's the Yazidis. It's the people, it's the minorities in the Middle East who have been absolutely destroyed and overrun. And this is like, it's ... I don't think when Americans talk about this part of the world they fully appreciate the sort of absolutely painful and hard decisions and the grappling with violence, really. You know, what happened to Jamal Khashoggi in that Saudi embassy, that's like normative for this part of the world. So the fact that Israel has somehow, with all of its flaws, managed to eke out a Western-style liberal democracy, frankly the only place where you and I would feel happy and comfortable living, like, why are we never talking about that?

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:12:37

        Well, I think it's very difficult for people to find the forum to discuss it the way you just did and to t- to really l- lay it out in cold, stark reality. Pss- What is the solution? What is the solution? I mean, is there s- i- i- is-

    16. BWBari Weiss1:12:53

        There is no magic.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:12:54

        Right.

    18. BWBari Weiss1:12:54

        The solution right now is to do everything possible to build up the Palestinian economy, to, for Israel to build relationships. Like right now, it has very, very positive relationships with Egypt, which it gave back the Sinai, which it had won in the Six Day W- Six Day War, I believe, gave it back to Egypt for a cold peace, which it's had. It has a g- good relationship, of all things, who would have thought, with Saudi Arabia because of their, their common enemy, Iran. I mean, things shift there rapidly. Um, but, but as for the Palestinians, the solution is to build up the economy, make life better, and support people and movements inside the West Bank that are genuinely non-violent. And those people exist. It's just, frankly, oftentimes, they're murdered by groups like Hamas and their bodies are dragged through the streets. If you're accused of being an Israeli collaborator in the West Bank, you know what happens to you? You're lynched. No one talks about that.

Episode duration: 2:52:18