Joe Rogan Experience #1234 - David Sinclair

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Here we go. Five,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Here we go. Five, four, three, two, one. David.

   2. DSDavid Sinclair0:08

      Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:09

      How are you, sir?

   4. DSDavid Sinclair0:10

      Great. Thanks.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Thanks for being here, man. I appreciate it.

   6. DSDavid Sinclair0:12

      Hey, thanks for having me on.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Really looking forward to talking to you. Very much so.

   8. DSDavid Sinclair0:16

      Well...

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Um, this is a fascinating subject for me. Anti-aging. The idea that you'll be able to stop aging, or even possibly pull it back, or at v- very least slow it down. What do you think?

   10. DSDavid Sinclair0:29

       I think that's all on the table. We've been doing this for years in the lab. Now we've just got to figure out how to do it in people.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       When I talk to someone like you as an actual research scientist in this stuff, I always want to know, what are you doing to yourself?

   12. DSDavid Sinclair0:39

       Ah. How long have you got? (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       (laughs) Like, what do you do on a daily basis?

   14. DSDavid Sinclair0:43

       What do I do? I'm-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       First of all, are you 100 years old?

   16. DSDavid Sinclair0:46

       Uh, getting there.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       How old are you?

   18. DSDavid Sinclair0:47

       Uh, turning 50. So...

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       Oh, you're turning 50? Hmm.

   20. DSDavid Sinclair0:50

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:50

       I wouldn't have thought you were 50. I would've figured you were for about 41, 42.

   22. DSDavid Sinclair0:56

       Oh, that's kind of you. Um-

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:57

       Hmm.

   24. DSDavid Sinclair0:57

       Well, my brother's the negative control and he's, he's, uh...

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       Does he look like shit?

   26. DSDavid Sinclair1:01

       Well, I can't say that, but, uh...

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       (laughs)

   28. DSDavid Sinclair1:04

       People say that he doesn't look as young as me and he's about three and a half years younger.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       Oh. So what are you doing personally?

   30. DSDavid Sinclair1:10

       Uh, well, you know, most of the time, I'm in the lab and trying to run a bunch of companies to make these drugs a reality. Uh, but daily, you know, I try to keep a healthy weight. I do intermittent fasting, uh, which is pretty easy, 'cause I'm so busy, I forget to eat.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   So how will bland-…

   1. DSDavid Sinclair15:00

      testosterone, it will give you performance benefits. But we think in the long run, uh, it'll actually come back to bite you.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      So how will bland- branched-chain amino acids come back to bite you?

   3. DSDavid Sinclair15:11

      So branched-chain amino acids will activate this mTOR pathway.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:14

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DSDavid Sinclair15:15

      Um, and when we do that in animals, we actually, we reduce their lifespan. So it's the opposite. You wanna keep those levels low.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      That's interesting. That, that seems s- I mean, for a dummy like me, it seems counterintuitive 'cause, uh, what's making you perform better currently, you would see, you would think especially something like amino acids, a natural part of the human body, you would think that that would be beneficial. You're adding to your body-

   7. DSDavid Sinclair15:40

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:40

      ... something that it needs.

   9. DSDavid Sinclair15:41

      Yeah, you would. But, but what you should consider is that it's a trade-off. Uh, there's a, a theory that's probably correct. Uh, it's the, uh, some Tom Kirkwood's the- theory called the disposable soma. And our bodies wanna do one of two things. We either wanna grow really fast and reproduce fast, build up a lot of muscle, cells divide. That's great in the short run. Y- you know, you'll be fertile, you can run, but actually, that's at the expense of hunkering down and building a long-lasting body.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:12

       Mm.

   11. DSDavid Sinclair16:12

       And it's a trade-off over time. And so animals that grow fast and reproduce fast, like a mouse, will only have a short lifespan. Whereas a whale, that grows slowly and reproduces slowly, will live a long time.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Interesting. So the idea is you're, you're limiting your calories, you're limiting your carbohydrates, you're limiting your protein, you're limiting your amino acids, but you're ramping up on all these beneficial molecules.

   13. DSDavid Sinclair16:41

       Right. These, these pathways that have e- evolved since the beginning of life to make us live longer during adversity so we can thrive when time's coming back that are good.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       Do you, do you take into consideration quality of life versus length of life? Like, is there a, a, like, a sweet spot?

   15. DSDavid Sinclair16:58

       Yeah. The... Well, it's hard to ask the mice how they feel, uh-

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:01

       (laughs)

   17. DSDavid Sinclair17:01

       ... but they, uh ... We do test them and we do frailty studies, and we can see that they've got better memory and they can run further on a treadmill, um, they're stronger, those kind of things. They see better. And, uh, you know, we think that that probably means they're happier as well.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       And, um, when you're taking in protein, so if you're not eating mammals, are you eating a lot of fish?

   19. DSDavid Sinclair17:21

       Yeah. Fish is fine. Um, white meat I indulge. Uh, I-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       Like chicken, that kind of stuff?

   21. DSDavid Sinclair17:26

       Chicken's fine. Um, not too much of it. But I'm trying to eat as many vegetables, especially the, the colored ones, for the reason that I said, which is, well, a few reasons. One is that you don't ingest as much protein as you otherwise would. Uh, you get all the vitamins, but you also get those molecules from the plants that we think make you healthy.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       Mm.

   23. DSDavid Sinclair17:45

       So resveratrol is just one of a bunch of polyphenols that plants make when they're stressed. And when plants are stressed, they go colored. So the, the purples and the reds and the blues-

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       Beets.

   25. DSDavid Sinclair17:55

       Yeah. Those are molecules that are generally healthy.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Mm.

   27. DSDavid Sinclair17:57

       And I think, um, one of the few scientists, um, who thinks this, but I think that we've evolved as animals to sense the plant world. And when our food supply is stressed out, then our bodies sense that by, when we in- ingest them, we get these molecules like resveratrol, and we've evolved to sense that, and we get the benefits of longevity as a side effect.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:18

       ... w- so, hmm, this is really fascinating to me because the idea that you're trying to balance out the- the si- the- the concept of a mouse growing very quickly but dying quickly as well, versus something that can extend and live longer and- and be more vital or have more vitality for a longer period of time.

   29. DSDavid Sinclair18:43

       Well, so here- here's the great thing is that now that we've- we believe we've figured out why, not just why, but how this all works, what are the genes and pathways in the body that control this-

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:53

       Hmm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   And there's a, there…

   1. DSDavid Sinclair30:00

      uh, the Okinawans, they, they live, uh, into their 100s, uh, fairly frequently. It's not one in a million. It's, it's more like one in, I think, 100,000 or something. So it's 10 times higher. They, they work, uh, most of their lives. They're physically active. They fast a lot and they have a lot of green leafy vegetables. And that seems to be the secret.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:21

      And there's a, there were, th- they were selling s- something, it was something about their mineral rich diet. They, remember they were selling, it was like a big thing for a while, coral calcium, and they were using that as an example of why the Okinawans were living so long. Do you remember that kinda-

   3. DSDavid Sinclair30:36

      I do remember it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:37

      ... fad?

   5. DSDavid Sinclair30:37

      Yeah. But in scientific circles, we weren't really bothered with it.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:41

      ... yeah. Like, there's, calcium is calcium, right?

   7. DSDavid Sinclair30:45

      Yeah. I don't, I don't know-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:46

      I don't know if better-

   9. DSDavid Sinclair30:46

      ... much about it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:47

       ... better calcium from coral or something. I, I, I might even be wrong about that.

   11. DSDavid Sinclair30:51

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:51

       But I just remember, um, reading about the Okinawans and the, the speculation. They eat seaweed as well, right?

   13. DSDavid Sinclair30:59

       They do.

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Which is very healthy.

   15. DSDavid Sinclair31:00

       Probably the, the best thing that they do is they don't overeat.

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       Hmm.

   17. DSDavid Sinclair31:03

       You know, stop at 70%.

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:06

       Yeah. I'm a glutton. That's my number one problem. I just love to eat.

   19. DSDavid Sinclair31:11

       Yeah. Yeah. Me too. It's a struggle.

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       And I keep going. Once I'm in it, I just wanna just keep f- shoving it in my face. But I've done a good job over the last few years of tapering that off and the intermittent fasting, I think, is probably one of the best things I've ever done in terms of, you know, just maintaining energy levels, maintaining body weight, that kinda stuff.

   21. DSDavid Sinclair31:29

       Yeah. Yeah. You, you look good. So I think that that's one of the best things that people can do. What we've known for 70 or more years actually is if you calorie restrict animals, actually even yeast cells and worms, they live longer.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:42

       Hmm.

   23. DSDavid Sinclair31:42

       And this is the most robust way to, to prevent cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's in a mouse. Um, and so the intermittent fasting is just a way of mimicking this calorie-restricted diet. So what, what is calorie restriction? It's reducing what you would, your doctor would recommend for your body, but reducing it back to about 20% to 30%. So it's quite extreme. That's not pleasant. I tried that for a week, gave up. Too hard. But intermittent fasting, like yourself, it, it's doable, it's not always pleasant, but, uh, I think that's the best way to do it. And with the mice, it works just as well, um, as calorie restriction, which is pretty much always being a bit hungry.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:18

       Now, what other things are you looking at in terms of, um, mitigating stress or, like, what, what other factors are there that, that you have to keep an eye on?

   25. DSDavid Sinclair32:27

       Yeah. Stress is a bad one. Um, I try to, uh, take life in my stride, not get too worried about it, remember what's important. So my heart rate rarely goes up, um, even under really extreme circumstances. Uh, and that, that's about it. I try to, uh, balance my life as best I can. I don't go through airport scanners as much as I can and have X-rays. Uh, these little things.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       Do you think those are bad for you? Those, the new ones, aren't they like a radio wave?

   27. DSDavid Sinclair32:57

       Yeah. They're, they're millimeter radio waves. Uh, I, I don't wanna take any chances and also don't wanna freak people out. But the old style ones that were banned in Europe first, they, they were potentially damaging. Um, X-rays definitely, uh, try not to have as many as, as y- you can.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:12

       But flying is, oh, just as bad-

   29. DSDavid Sinclair33:14

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:14

       ... as an X-ray, isn't it?
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   And when you do…

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      And when you do it, do you try to not go too hard and burn yourself out too much?

   2. DSDavid Sinclair45:07

      Uh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      Like, do you have a sweet spot?

   4. DSDavid Sinclair45:09

      Yeah. Um, I do. I do. I try not to go too much, right? That, that's the trick with everything in life.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:16

      Hmm.

   6. DSDavid Sinclair45:16

      It's this hormesis effect, to get your body damaged enough that it can repair itself, but give you the benefits without, like, having, uh, a lot of X-rays or radiation-

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:27

      Right.

   8. DSDavid Sinclair45:27

      ... where you're doing it and scratching that CD.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:30

      Yeah, my, that's always my thought on people that, uh, do extreme endurance activities, like, um, ultra-marathons and things along those lines. Um, I mean, I, I marvel at their willpower and their ability to push themselves through that and the, the physical condition they have to be in to perform such feats. But I always think, "Man, you're probably doing X times the amount of damage to your body that a normal person does at your age."

   10. DSDavid Sinclair45:58

       It sounds right. Calorie restriction works, but if you overdo it, you also-

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:02

       Starve.

   12. DSDavid Sinclair46:02

       You, yeah, you die. So you gotta find the right balance.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       Right. Yeah. How do you, how do you know what the right balance is for you?

   14. DSDavid Sinclair46:10

       Good question. How does anybody? Um, so we live in an age that is still fairly primitive. This is why I like the future. Um, these days, we go to the doctor, most of us go to the doctor for annual physical, which is ludicrous. The idea that, uh, your doctor will take a, hopefully a blood test, uh, a prostate exam once a year. That's kind of crazy. What happens if you've got a tumor that developed the day you leave the doctor's office? So the future-

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:34

       Hmm.

   16. DSDavid Sinclair46:34

       ... and actually partially for those who are on the cutting edge can be done right now, it's monitoring your body, uh, in various ways, genetically, epigenetically. We can measure those scratches right now. And also, uh, with blood tests. You can also, uh, have companies tell you, uh, if you're out of range, if you're not optimized, and how to get it back in order. So that's what I do.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:57

       So how often do you monitor your blood?

   18. DSDavid Sinclair46:59

       Uh, probably every few months I have a blood test, uh, from a company that tells me what I need to correct.

   19. JRJoe Rogan47:06

       And how extensive is this, is this blood test? Like is it a standard one that a normal person can get, or do you have to have prescription to get this or-

   20. DSDavid Sinclair47:12

       Uh, no. You can go online and get it. Uh, it's about, I think, 40 parameters they measure, some that are not standard that your doctor wouldn't do. Some are pretty standard. Um, but what's nice is it's, it's a tracking system. It's called InsideTracker, and they, you can see over time if things are going up. And even if they're not out of range yet, you can see if they're headed that direction-

   21. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       Hmm.

   22. DSDavid Sinclair47:30

       ... and correct it before it's too late. So that's why, one of the reasons I'm on metformin, my blood glucose was going up and up and up, which predicts lower life. And so metformin got it back down to where it was optimal again.

   23. JRJoe Rogan47:43

       So that's one of the things that metformin does, is it lowers your blood glucose?

   24. DSDavid Sinclair47:46

       That's what it's prescribed for, for diabetics.

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:48

       Hmm. Now does that have any effect on your energy levels?

   26. DSDavid Sinclair47:52

       Uh, I don't think so. I haven't noticed that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:56

       D- Hmm. Um, where you would notice it is during rigorous exercise.

   28. DSDavid Sinclair48:00

       That makes sense.

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:01

       Do you feel it? Do you-

   30. DSDavid Sinclair48:03

       Uh, well, so I take metformin at night.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:13:06

   Um, how much water…

   1. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:00

      to these other smaller molecules that the body then turns into NAD once it gets in.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      Um, how much water do you drink?

   3. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:06

      Not enough. Not enough. I was just, uh, speaking with, um, some members of Tom Bra- Tom Brady's team, and they said, "David, you gotta drink more."

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

      Tom Brady's team?

   5. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:16

      Uh, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

      You mean his like physical team? You don't mean-

   7. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:19

      No, no.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:19

      ... like the Patriots?

   9. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:20

      No, his, uh, his-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:21

       (laughs)

   11. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:22

       No, he's CEO of his company.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:24

       Oh, okay. And they're saying, "You need to drink more," and you went and got ... See, it's like suggestion. I'm good drinking some now too.

   13. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:29

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

       Ruh.

   15. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:30

       I'm drinking a lot more. Um, and I ... then you end up just going to the bathroom half the time but, uh-

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:00:35

       You gotta do what you gotta do.

   17. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:37

       You do. You do. I ... It makes sense to me having a buildup of toxins in your body and urea isn't a good thing.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

       Right. Um, do you take anything else that, uh, is notable?

   19. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:49

       Well, I can run you through it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       Sure.

   21. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:51

       Um, I'm on a lip- a, a statin for-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:00:54

       Why are you on a statin?

   23. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:54

       ... high cholesterol. I've been on a statin since I was in my 20s.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:00:57

       Whoa.

   25. DSDavid Sinclair1:00:58

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

       Hmm.

   27. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:00

       Uh, so-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:01:00

       That stuff's fucking terrible for you.

   29. DSDavid Sinclair1:01:02

       Uh, right. So my good friend and colleague George Church, uh, at Harvard, uh, told me I'm killing myself. But I have really high cholesterol. My family-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Genetically?

Episode duration: 2:21:04