Joe Rogan Experience #1241 - Sam Harris

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... five, four, three,…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... five, four, three, two... (claps) Hello, Sam Harris.

   2. SHSam Harris0:05

      Hey, man.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Good to see you.

   4. SHSam Harris0:07

      Ha- happy to be here. It's great.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Good. I listened to your podcast with Jack. Let's just get right into the-

   6. SHSam Harris0:10

      Let's jump in.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      ... the Jack stuff.

   8. SHSam Harris0:12

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      'Cause I listened to your podcast with Jack, and I found something very... When I did my podcast with Jack, first of all, was not anticipating the blowback that I received. It was-

   10. SHSam Harris0:20

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       ... stunning. Uh, but, um, he... What, what I thought was... I was just gonna have a conversation with this guy, be fun, see what it's like to run this gigantic network that helps people communicate. You o- You okay, Jamie?

   12. SHSam Harris0:34

       I'm good. I'm good.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       All right. Helps people communicate-

   14. SHSam Harris0:37

       (clears throat)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       ... and distribute information worldwide. What is it like to start something like that up and have it become what it is? Like, how have you managed to try to keep up with it and what have the headaches been?

   16. SHSam Harris0:46

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       Apparently, people online, particularly the people that wanna comment about this, all they wanted to know about was censorship. And that was an issue with me, there was a question with me, but it became a far... It was a far bigger question for people online. They felt like that I tossed him softball questions, um, and that I didn't press him.

   18. SHSam Harris1:05

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:06

       And then I listened to your podcast. And, uh, one thing about Jack is very smart guy, very nice guy, but he talks in a very slow and methodical way. And when you ask him a question, he takes these routes. And if you don't wanna jump in and press him, like, you're in this weird situation where he's not totally answering your question-

   20. SHSam Harris1:29

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       ... but he's talking about the same subject that you're talking... Like, f- for instance, you brought up Louis Farrakhan.

   22. SHSam Harris1:34

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:35

       Like how is Louis Farrakhan in good standing on the platform? And someone like, you know, fill in the blank, Milo Yiannopoulos or Laura Loomer or whoever it was, they get kicked off. He never got to that. He went around and around and around with you.

   24. SHSam Harris1:48

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:48

       And, um, he recognized this after the podcast. Uh, I received a lot of blowback. He received a lot of blowback. So I, I contacted him and he said he'd be more than happy to come back on again and, and address all these things. And I said okay. What I'd like to do is address specific instances of people being censored. And he said, "Okay, what I'll do is I'll bring in someone from the company that's in charge of that stuff."

   26. SHSam Harris2:11

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       So I'm starting to put together a picture of what it's like to be a CEO of something as big... And he's also a CEO of Square. He's runs the Cash App. There's a lot of stuff going on there, right? So he's obviously busy. How much day-to-day involvement does he actually have and who gets censored and why they get censored and how much is he willing to share about that? So we're gonna find out in the next follow-up podcast, but I got accused of everything from being a shill, to being a cuck-

   28. SHSam Harris2:40

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:40

       ... to being a... And there's also an issue that you've managed to avoid, wisely so, of advertising. The Cash App's an advertiser on my podcast. So because the Cash App's an advertiser on my podcast-

   30. SHSam Harris2:51

       Right, right. The man had you by the throat.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah, yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      It was, I, like I said, when I listened to it, I was like, "God, this is kind of boring."

   2. SHSam Harris15:03

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:03

      Just wasn't, wasn't juicy. There was nothing, he, we, he, we didn't get a flow. It wasn't like he, he and I were just shooting the shit, having a good time.

   4. SHSam Harris15:11

      Well, so take that one decision. So you have decided to make video a main component of this podcast.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:16

      Yeah.

   6. SHSam Harris15:16

      Now, it's still probably a, a small percentage of your actual listens, your actual-

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:20

      Not anymore. No.

   8. SHSam Harris15:21

      Oh, no, it's grown? Okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:21

      Not anymore. It's, it's gotten to, well, it's almost 50/50.

   10. SHSam Harris15:24

       Oh, awesome 'cause-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       It's closing in on that.

   12. SHSam Harris15:26

       Yeah. It used to be like 90/10, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:27

       Yeah.

   14. SHSam Harris15:28

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan15:28

       Yeah.

   16. SHSam Harris15:28

       Okay, so you, so I have it, I don't have a video component, and so I just put audio on YouTube, but I put, uh, absolutely no energy into YouTube. Uh, I mean, that may one day change. But because I don't, I don't care what's happening on YouTube, right? So I never see the comments. And whenever I look, it is, as you say, a cesspool. It's insane.

   17. JRJoe Rogan15:45

       (laughs)

   18. SHSam Harris15:45

       I mean, YouTube is just skews massively right. It skews, uh, you know, just, uh, massively male, and it's probably skews very young too. So you have just a, just like millennial alt-right craziness, right? It's like, like-

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SHSam Harris16:00

       As I say these sentences, your YouTube page is just blowing up with hate for me, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       (laughs)

   22. SHSam Harris16:04

       Like, you got a bunch of, you know, millennials-

   23. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Yeah.

   24. SHSam Harris16:06

       ... with their thumbs up their asses just whinging, right? You know.

   25. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       Uh, there's a lot of older people too.

   26. SHSam Harris16:10

       Well, yeah, but I mean, it's, it's gotta be younger than, than most of, of where... Well, first of all, I'm not even seeing most comment threads that could possibly respond to anything I put out there now, right? So I got, I don't even look at my at mentions for the most part. I spend maybe five minutes a day looking at-

   27. JRJoe Rogan16:24

       That's a healthy move.

   28. SHSam Harris16:25

       ... what's coming back to me. But, and i- i- you were actually helpful in, in reformatting my brain on that, on that topic. But, um, so because I don't see any of that stuff, I mean, maybe I'm getting a lot of pain for my Dorsey interview, but I don't even know about it, right? And so I'm not having... I'm, I don't feel like I have to course correct in response to anything now.

   29. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Yeah.

   30. SHSam Harris16:45

       And, and in large measure, it is a consequence of just this decision that, you know, I inadvertently made that I'm just... I'm, I don't have a video component to my podcast at the moment. And so I'm not, I'm not spectating on the, you know, the, the feedback on YouTube.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   When they're donating. …

   1. SHSam Harris30:00

      is that it engages this sort of, the philanthropy, charity side of the brain. Right? And people are worried about what you're gonna do and how much it'll all cost, like, "How much does this mic cost?" Right? You know, like that, that's, that's a question that someone is asking-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      When they're donating.

   3. SHSam Harris30:14

      ... yeah, when they're donating. And the problem there is they're not understanding, you know, just the opportunity cost. Like I, you know, I have to decide how to spend my time. Am I gonna spend 90% of my time on a podcast? Well, that i- if so, that closes the door to, to virtually everything else I can do. Right? So it's, you know, it's, it has to become a viable business. And so, I mean, I, I've recognized now that I'm, you know, to some degree, going against the grain of human psychology in asking for support. And now I, now I feel like I'm gonna ask much less. I mean, I'm, I'm gonna tell people what the business model is and, and, you know, and still, and remind them of it. But I'm, personally, I'm gonna go more and more the, uh, in the direction of putting stuff behind a pay wall.... and if people want it, then they can support. And, and so it's a mo- it's, it's a, it's kinda, it's, it's sorta Netflix. The ultimate version of it would be if it were Netflix that would also let you get it for free if you really couldn't afford it.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:12

      (laughs)

   5. SHSam Harris31:12

      Right? That, I mean, that, that w- that's the, the guilt-free business model that I'm, I'm converging on now.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:17

      I like it. I like how you're thinking, and I like the ethics involved in it. And I think it's a great thing. And when you said it on your podcast, I was shocked. But it makes sense coming from you. Um, my thought is I'm in negotiation or in discussions right now, and I talked to you about this too, about building an app. And what I wanna do with the app is have a set amount of money that you pay per month-

   7. SHSam Harris31:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:40

      ... if you wanna sign up for the app. And you get the podcast with no ads.

   9. SHSam Harris31:44

      Right, right.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:44

       So you could either get it from iTunes or whatever, Google Play or Google Podcasts, or you can get it from the app. And if you get it from the app, you pay X amount per month and you get the podcast with zero ads. And it'll stream live. I'm gonna figure out how to wa- to do both of those things. My thought going into advertising, when I fir- when I first did the podcast, I've been doing the podcast now for nine years, when I first started doing it, there was no ads for the longest time. It just cost money. It cost money to, for bandwidth, it cost money to put up, but I was doing it for fun and I didn't care.

   11. SHSam Harris32:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       And I had, my, my, my revenue was coming from other sources. Um, a few years ago, uh, I decided what I was gonna do was, because I was getting ad... Well, the first ad request was a Facebook, was, uh, the Fleshlight rather, and you were the first person to request-

   13. SHSam Harris32:29

       Yeah. Yeah, I killed that. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:29

       ... to not, to not have the Fleshlight on your podcast.

   15. SHSam Harris32:32

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       The first podcast that we did.

   17. SHSam Harris32:34

       Fucking prima donna, Sam Harris.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:37

       Yeah. (laughs)

   19. SHSam Harris32:37

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:37

       Well, I mean, it made sense.

   21. SHSam Harris32:38

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:38

       I mean, they were disgusting ads too. I mean, we'd, we would get ridiculous and-

   23. SHSam Harris32:42

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       ... and be really silly in those ads.

   25. SHSam Harris32:44

       It was just the juxtaposition. I just-

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:45

       Yes.

   27. SHSam Harris32:45

       Just knowing that the, the mic would go hot and then, you know, 15 seconds before it would still be ringing in their ears that, you know-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       (laughs)

   29. SHSam Harris32:50

       ... if you wanna jack off with this fantastic device.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       (laughs)
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Right, right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      first got here versus when the mic came on.

   2. SHSam Harris45:02

      Right, right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:02

      When he first got here, he pulls out the fucking blowtorch and starts shooting this flamethrower in the middle of the hallway-

   4. SHSam Harris45:10

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:10

      ... and we're laughing and have... I'm like, "He's gonna be easy. This is great."

   6. SHSam Harris45:13

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:14

      And then we sat down-

   8. SHSam Harris45:15

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:15

      ... and then stiff-

   10. SHSam Harris45:16

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan45:16

       ... right off the bat.

   12. SHSam Harris45:17

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan45:17

       And I'm, I'm just trying to massage it and get him, get him, get him going.

   14. SHSam Harris45:22

       Although I, I, honestly, I think that is another consequence of live.

   15. JRJoe Rogan45:26

       Yeah.

   16. SHSam Harris45:26

       I mean, I'm not, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be live because it, it, it has a massive advantage for you as well, but it is, there's just a different feeling.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:35

       Yes.

   18. SHSam Harris45:35

       Like, you know, if, if I knew that this was being taped and I could rethink the thing we're about to say about Liam Neeson or whatever it is-

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       Yeah.

   20. SHSam Harris45:42

       ... you know, it's, it's different.

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:43

       Yeah.

   22. SHSam Harris45:44

       And so, um, but -

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:45

       Well, the Liam Neeson-

   24. SHSam Harris45:46

       ... in other words-

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:46

       ... story is a perfect example.

   26. SHSam Harris45:48

       Yeah, let's, let's go there. Okay.

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:49

       Yeah, let, let's go there. A perfect example of a story where, you know, if you were Liam's friend, you would go, "Don't tell that one."

   28. SHSam Harris45:57

       Right, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan45:57

       "Don't tell that one." He's like, "But I wanna be honest."

   30. SHSam Harris45:59

       Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:07:55

   Right. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      at you if you'd text and then recently within the last two or three years he started texting occasionally.

   2. SHSam Harris1:00:05

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      But he only calls.

   4. SHSam Harris1:00:07

      Well, I gotta, so I gotta tell you, so having released this meditation app has given me a kind of a sanity check on everything else I'm doing, which is, it's very interesting because... So the, in releasing the app, you know, it's like, it- it's firewalled from all the other controversial stuff I'm doing. Like I'm not, you know, in the app I'm not whinging about Trump or, you know, talking about any of the stuff I talk about on- on my podcast. It's just me trying to teach meditation a- as a, largely as an antidote to all of the stuff we're talking about. It's like ev- we've got this, as Tristan Harris says, we've got this slot machine in our pocket that is continually gaming our attention all day long. And you know, in my view a meditation app is like the one thing you can have on your smartphone that completely subverts the technology and can get you to actually live a more examined life w- using the technology, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SHSam Harris1:01:00

      But what's been amazing for me personally is that I put it out and it is the only thing that I have put out maybe ever, right, where it is- it's been received exactly as I've intended, right? There's no controversy. It's just like, like the people who are finding it useful love it and they say thank you, and it's like they're- they're getting exactly what I thought I was putting into it. And it's like, it- it made me think, "What the hell am I doing over here with all of this toxic stuff that is being end- endlessly, maliciously spun against me and misunderstood?" And you know it's just, I have to-

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

      (clears throat)

   8. SHSam Harris1:01:37

      ... I have to do both because there's a lot of important things to talk about that are gonna be endlessly spun and- and maliciously under- misunderstood. But-... it is, it's been so refreshing to have one thing. I mean, may- you must get this with, with, you know, doing your standup or some- or maybe ............................

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:01:52

      (laughs) Oh, I don't have a thing. I get shit for everything.

   10. SHSam Harris1:01:55

       Okay. But, well-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

       (coughs)

   12. SHSam Harris1:01:56

       Or maybe, maybe UFC commentary?

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       No.

   14. SHSam Harris1:01:58

       Or just people- Okay.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:58

       They come after me-

   16. SHSam Harris1:01:59

       Don't have a-

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

       ... for everything. (laughs)

   18. SHSam Harris1:02:00

       Well, he, it is just, it has been a r- ps- r- psychologically, it's been a revelation to have one thing-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

       Yeah.

   20. SHSam Harris1:02:07

       ... that I can put out that is just, it's just received, appreciated, and they got what I intended, and it's just, you know, thank you. And, and it's just like, "Oh, fuck. That's possible."

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:02:18

       Yeah.

   22. SHSam Harris1:02:18

       I had, I had no i- i- I had ... If I ever knew, I have forgotten that that w- that was possible.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:02:24

       Well, a meditation app, it kinda makes sense because the people that are gonna flock to that are looking to meditate. They're looking to improve their mind.

   24. SHSam Harris1:02:29

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:02:29

       They're not d- looking to spew hatred on Facebook.

   26. SHSam Harris1:02:32

       No. No.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:32

       Yeah.

   28. SHSam Harris1:02:33

       Yeah. It's, uh ...

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       Yeah. (coughs) I thought that after the podcast with Jack, I was like, "Jesus Christ. I should just stick to podcasts with comics." 'Cause podcasts with comics, even if you put your foot in your mouth, everybody knows you're just trying to be funny.

   30. SHSam Harris1:02:43

       Right.

Episode duration: 2:43:00