Joe Rogan Experience #1246 - Pot Debate - Alex Berenson & Dr. Michael Hart

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... two, one, and…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      ... two, one, and we're live, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, or gentleman, you too.

   2. MHDr. Michael Hart0:11

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Ladies and gentlemen listening, but you too, uh, unless you have some non-binary handle that you enjoy. It's, it's a new world. Uh-

   4. MHDr. Michael Hart0:18

      I don't. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Please, please introduce yourself.

   6. MHDr. Michael Hart0:21

      Sure. So, uh, I'm Dr. Mike Hart, originally from St. John's, Newfoundland. Uh, now I'm residing in London, Ontario, and I'm a family doctor. And I've been practicing cannabis medicine for just over five years.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      And you, sir?

   8. ABAlex Berenson0:33

      Uh, my name's Alex Berenson. I used to be a New York Times reporter. Uh, then I became a spy novelist. And most recently, I wrote the book Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence, which came out last month and, uh, has not endeared me to the cannabis advocacy community, I'd say.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:50

      Have they, uh, attacked you mercilessly for this book?

   10. ABAlex Berenson0:54

       Yes, they have.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Yes.

   12. ABAlex Berenson0:55

       And, and that's, and that's okay. Um, uh, I've also heard from a lot of parents, uh, you know, some users, but parents who've told me, uh, that the book really encapsulates their, their family's problems-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       Hmm.

   14. ABAlex Berenson1:07

       ... in the last couple years.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       Um, I suspect m- my, my real thoughts here, before we even get started, is that we're gonna find that the truth is somewhere in the middle here. Um, I don't think marijuana is 100% safe, honestly, for everybody. I really don't. I know too many people that have had experiences where they took too much, particularly edibles, and, uh, I don't, I don't wanna say I know anybody who had psychotic breaks, but I know some people that freaked out for weeks, you know. In fact, uh, we just had a, uh, a comedian here from Brazil, um, a couple days ago, Rafi Bastos, who said he took a couple of hits of a vape pen and was high for 14 days.

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart1:50

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       Went to a psychiatrist and, and he's a big guy. He's like 6 foot 5, 6'6", you know, and, you know, they told him to keep taking it 'cause, you know, he's like, "You're so big. Just keep smoking." And so he, he doesn't smoke, so he just kept hitting his vape pen, and he said, "I was high for fucking two weeks."

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart2:06

       Yeah, so you need to do it properly, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Yes.

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart2:08

       It needs to be held to the same standard as any other medicine.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Yeah.

   22. MHDr. Michael Hart2:11

       So we need to identify that there's risks and there's benefits to it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       Yes.

   24. MHDr. Michael Hart2:15

       Right? And, and some people are definitely, you know, going to be more susceptible to those risks.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Yeah.

   26. MHDr. Michael Hart2:21

       And we need to kinda, you know, tease out those people and make sure that those people, you know, don't, uh, put themselves at risk.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Yeah, I, I think so as well. And this is one of the reasons why I wanna state this, 'cause I'm a well-known marijuana advocate, but I, I do believe, I believe absolutely there are great benefits to it. I think there's great benefits in terms of, uh, relieving pressure, ocular pressure for people that have glaucoma, people with AIDS who are on medication, people with cancer that are going through chemotherapy find great benefit in terms of helping them. And then there's also some people with autism, I know people that, who, their children have autism, and they give them small amounts of edible marijuana and it stops seizures. It's incredibly beneficial in the form of CBD for a lot of different ailments. But I think with all things, and this is a, a stance that I've kind of, like, really come to accept over the last few years, with all things that affect the mind, they affect everyone slightly differently.

   28. MHDr. Michael Hart3:17

       Absolutely. Yeah. Alex, you wanted to say something there?

   29. ABAlex Berenson3:19

       Um, no, no. Well, first of all, I, I suspect... You know, there are people who said, "Don't go on with Joe. He's just gonna, you know, he's gonna try to eat you alive, and, and especially there'll be, it'll be two on one." I told them the truth. First of all, I, I'll go on with anybody, and I am glad you had me on or you're having me on because, uh, you know, Bill Maher, he won't have me on. He's afraid to talk to me about this.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       Why?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Well, that's not entirely…

   1. ABAlex Berenson15:00

      best way to know is you give it to two groups of ... or you give, you give the real medicine to one group of people and you give a placebo to the other group. And you see the changes in those two groups over time, and you find out whether or not your theory about whether this works on a population level basis is real or not. That's how, that is at the core of medical science, and we've basically thrown that rule out for THC.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:22

      Well, that's not entirely correct. You do know that there was, were studies that were run during the Nixon administration that showed the efficacy of marijuana and the safety of it, and those were all squashed. And you also, I'm sure you, you know like when we're talking about marijuana, you're talking about something that's federally illegal.

   3. ABAlex Berenson15:37

      Yes, of course.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:37

      It's not something that's eagle- that's easy to run these FDA studies on.

   5. ABAlex Berenson15:41

      Yes. And I do think, and I say at the end of the book, I think we should drop that. I think anybody who's got a legitimate interest in researching either THC or cannabis or any of the compounds for a, for a medical condition, let them run phase one, phase two, phase three trials. Let's see if this, if this c- if this plant is good for these things.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:58

      I think that's a great idea. But still, why are you saying that you don't think it is medicine when all these people find benefit in it?

   7. ABAlex Berenson16:05

      So, so ...

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:06

      Do you think they're getting it from just the CBD, the minimal amount of CBD in, in marijuana?

   9. ABAlex Berenson16:11

      No, I think that, again, there, there's been a lot of research done on THC and cannabis to see whether or not those, uh, whether THC as a compound and whether smoked cannabis can treat these conditions. And for the most part, the studies have been negative. The, again, there's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Negative in what way?

   11. ABAlex Berenson16:27

       Meaning they haven't shown any actual, uh, like, uh-

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       Can you cite, cite these studies?

   13. ABAlex Berenson16:32

       Uh, they're ... I mention them in my book.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Okay. Well, what, what were the conclusions of these studies when you're saying that they're not positive?

   15. ABAlex Berenson16:39

       That they, again, that they didn't work, that the drug did not work.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Didn't work on what?

   17. ABAlex Berenson16:44

       On cancer, on Alzheimer's disease, on irritable bowel syndrome, on all kinds of-

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart16:49

       So, Alex, I mean, you know, you're throwing a, a few different things out there, and, you know, I appreciate the fact that we can't be going around, you know, saying things like, you know, "Cannabis cures cancer," right?

   19. ABAlex Berenson16:59

       Yeah.

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart16:59

       But, you know, I, uh, you know, and I've done, done videos on this even like recently d- uh, stating that. But if you look at the research, I mean, specifically if you look at specific cancers, uh, there are studies that have shown that THC and CBD can help. Like i- like say if we're talking about breast cancer, and I did a video on this, uh, recently.You know, if you are HER2 positive and you use T- C and CBD, it can in fact, uh, reduce tumor size and it can reduce tumor growth. Now, if you have a-

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       What is that? I'm sorry. Can I interrupt you?

   22. MHDr. Michael Hart17:30

       Sure.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       What does that mean, H-E ... What is it? Is-

   24. ABAlex Berenson17:31

       It's a subset of, of breast cancer.

   25. MHDr. Michael Hart17:33

       Right. So, um, there's, there's different types of breast cancer and that's just one subset of, of breast cancer. So there are other breast cancers which do not express cannabinoid receptors.

   26. ABAlex Berenson17:43

       Oh.

   27. MHDr. Michael Hart17:43

       And, you know, I've seen, uh, one study at least ... Again, it's only one study that show that when they gave THC in that animal model, it actually caused a proliferation of, of tumors. So it worsened them. So, you know, I do agree with you, Alex, in the fact that, you know, we have to be careful about using, you know, terms like that. But that just doesn't mean that we can't say that cannabis is no good for cancer at all. And I mean, even in the, um, National Academies of Science and Engineering report, you know, they said that cannabis was great for, uh, chemotherapy-induced nausea-

   28. ABAlex Berenson18:11

       Yes.

   29. MHDr. Michael Hart18:11

       ... um, and vomiting, right?

   30. ABAlex Berenson18:12

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   So, Alex, why did…

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart30:00

      between cannabis and, and psychosis, it's almost all in adolescence. You know, I think that Alex only has one study, um, in, in his, in his book that shows an extremely weak correlation between, um, an adult using cannabis and then developing any type of, of mental illness later. So, you know, 25, um, is, is a, is a good age, but it's definitely a, you know, kind of a, a conservative-ish, -ish age. But, you know, it's, it's something that, that we follow, and I think that, you know, we've done well with that in Canada.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:30

      So, Alex, why did you leave those conclusions outta your book?

   3. ABAlex Berenson30:33

      So I wi- I wi- I need to push back here.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:34

      Okay.

   5. ABAlex Berenson30:35

      Um, so the National Academy of Medicine, uh, report, uh, was, uh, drawn up by a committee of 16 researchers. Uh, Ziva Cooper is the one who's publicly said, "The report said this, uh, but I think that we should've, uh, emphasized that it also said this," okay? What I, what I wrote in that New York Times op-ed, uh, what I wrote in the book, is the plain language of the report, and the plain language is this: Cannabis use is associated with a risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychoses. The higher the use, the greater the risk. I may have a word or two wrong in that 'cause I'm doing it from memory, but that's what it said. And by the way, the committee was very clear. They separated, uh, depression. They said, "There, we don't see as nearly as high risk for depression as psychosis," uh, even though, by the way, today, just today, uh, JAMA Psychiatry, the Journal of the American Medical Association Psychiatry, uh, put out a meta-analysis s- showing that cannabis is associated with depression, uh, and suicidal thinking, uh, and actually suicide attempts at a three-and-a-half to one rate. This l- this literally was released today. Um, but to, but to go back, Ziva is one of 16 members of that committee. So if you're gonna talk... If you're gonna say that I misquoted the report, which I didn't, I quoted it entirely accurately, you need to say, "Well, why aren't the other 15 members of that committee saying that I misquoted?" Why is one person who works for the Cannabis Research Initiative at UCLA, which takes money from cannabis investors and users, she's the one who said that I misquoted it. Maybe she... M- Maybe we should ask why the other members of the committee are not speaking out against my book.

   6. MHDr. Michael Hart32:15

      Well, I think that she was just one of the 16 members that, that came out, but, you know, you can't really expect, uh, all the other members to, to potentially, you know, come out with that as well.

   7. ABAlex Berenson32:24

      W- Why not? Why not?

   8. MHDr. Michael Hart32:25

      Well, some people will, and s- and-

   9. ABAlex Berenson32:26

      If I, if I did something wrong, if I misquoted them.

   10. MHDr. Michael Hart32:28

       Well, some people will and some people won't. You know, some people have, you know, the personality. Some people have the platform, like, you know, Ziva has a bunch of followers on, on her Twitter. People know who she is. You know, a lot of people who do research actually are not into social media at all. Like, I don't think you were at all before you, you had your book, were you?

   11. ABAlex Berenson32:45

       Uh, yeah. I mean, or I was a novelist-

   12. MHDr. Michael Hart32:46

       Right?

   13. ABAlex Berenson32:46

       ... so I was promoting my book, but sure.

   14. MHDr. Michael Hart32:47

       Okay. Yeah, so, so you weren't into social media at all. So, you know, I don't think that most people on that committee are in- are into social media. You know, Ziva just, just happens to be, and, you know, I even spoke to Ziva, uh, on the phone about this, and, you know, and, and, and she said that, "Yeah, you know, I, I don't..." uh, that she agrees with everything that was in the report, but she doesn't agree with your conclusions. And to go back to what-

   15. ABAlex Berenson33:09

       My conclusions are quoted from the report.

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart33:11

       But you're only quoting... They're... But you're only quoting the parts that, that cite, or, or sorry, that back your, uh, y- your opinions. You're not quoting the entire part. Like, you left... Like, why did you leave out the part that said they have found an association between marijuana use and improved cognitive outcomes in individuals with psychotic disorders, right? So you're leaving out that part, so why'd you leave that part out?

   17. ABAlex Berenson33:34

       If, if you, if you can-

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       Why did you leave out that part?

   19. ABAlex Berenson33:35

       If you can find me a psychiatrist who thinks that it's a good idea for somebody with an active psychotic disorder-

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart33:40

       Okay, but why did you leave out that part?

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       But why did you leave out that part?

   22. ABAlex Berenson33:43

       Well, my book presents... Uh, it makes a case, right? It makes a case that this is a big issue that we have not heard about at all, and the reasons that we haven't heard about it have a lot to do with the advocacy community and the way they've presented this data for 25 years. I wrote a book that is trying to break through a lot of noise.

   23. JRJoe Rogan34:03

       So, but, still, like, to, to get a balanced approach, did you decide that you were only going to s-

   24. ABAlex Berenson34:10

       I, I say, I say in the introduction-

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:10

       ... that you were only going to write about things that confirm your, the belief that you held when you were writing this, and what you were trying to push in the title of the book and in, in the conclusion of the book?

   26. ABAlex Berenson34:22

       I think that's a really great question. I say in the introduction of the book this book is not balanced.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:26

       Okay.

   28. ABAlex Berenson34:27

       There, there's not a lot of evidence in there. If you wanna-

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:29

       That's fair.

   30. ABAlex Berenson34:29

       If you wanna read about how indica and sativa strains are different and-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yes. …

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart45:00

      compare yourself to someone else.

   2. ABAlex Berenson45:02

      Yes.

   3. MHDr. Michael Hart45:02

      And, you know, people, you know, obviously th- we've done that, you know, all, all humans have done that, you know, since th- since history began. But now everything is online. You can compare your life to everyone and people are doing it all the time. And even worse than that, and, you know, we should talk about this too, is that the income gap is getting, is getting wider. So it's like people's lives, not only are they getting, you know, better than, than, than other people's lives, but it's, but it now it's on, it's on display so everyone can see it. Whereas before, you know, maybe you wouldn't, you wouldn't have seen it because it wasn't on social media.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:34

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart45:34

      But now it's, it's on social media. So you have this huge income gap that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then you have people going, going on social media and they're comparing themselves. And you're absolutely right, especially in that, in that age population.

   6. ABAlex Berenson45:47

      Right.

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart45:47

      I mean, people under, under the age of 30, you know, they're definitely, um, you know, they're, they're being bullied online. Like I see it every day in my office. Like literally every day people are being bullied online. And that's, you know, something that I never had, you know, to deal with, uh, growing up.

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:02

      Yeah.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart46:02

      Um, and, you know, a lot of kids do have, do have to, to, to deal with that. Just one more note too-

   10. ABAlex Berenson46:07

       Oh, sure.

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart46:08

       ... uh, on the, uh, since Colorado has, has, has legalized cannabis, this is important for, for this, uh, this, this subject and this topic. Um, they've actually seen marijuana rates decrease. So it's important for people to know that, you know, just be-

   12. ABAlex Berenson46:22

       No, not, no, no, no, no. They haven't seen-

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart46:23

       Yeah, I can, I can pull up the study.

   14. ABAlex Berenson46:25

       Did- are you talking about teen, teen use or overall use?

   15. MHDr. Michael Hart46:26

       Oh, I-

   16. ABAlex Berenson46:26

       Overall use has gone up.

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       Teen use is flat, overall use is up.

   18. ABAlex Berenson46:30

       Okay. Yeah, I'm talking about teen use.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       Okay. Okay.

   20. ABAlex Berenson46:31

       That's the category that we're talking about, un- under- under 30, right? So teen use, you know, would- would classify as part of that category. So, you know, in Colorado, we have seen a decrease. Um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:41

       Do you think that's because of the lack of... You know, because it's not illegal, it's not as exciting to them?

   22. ABAlex Berenson46:47

       Part of it, for sure, you know.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:49

       Yeah.

   24. ABAlex Berenson46:49

       And I mean, part of it, like one worry I had, you know, I haven't looked into the, uh, statistics yet, was, you know, when- when you're growing up and, uh, when you're in high school, you know, if you wanna be part of the, you know, cool crowd-

   25. JRJoe Rogan47:02

       Cool kids, yeah.

   26. ABAlex Berenson47:02

       ...so to say, what, you know, you usually drink or you smoke pot, you know. That's- that's what people do. Um, I hope that that doesn't change because pot's seen as medicine. I hope that, you know, people don't, you know, move on to or- or- or do something, you know, harsher because they don't see pot as- as cool anymore.

   27. JRJoe Rogan47:22

       Right. There's just no stigma attached to it-

   28. ABAlex Berenson47:23

       You know, that is one- Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan47:23

       ...because it's legal.

   30. ABAlex Berenson47:24

       Yeah. So I- I gotta push back on a couple of things.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:07:50

   Yes. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      so many people.

   2. ABAlex Berenson1:00:00

      Yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      Whether they're journalists, I- I know comedians, I know a lot of fucking people-

   4. ABAlex Berenson1:00:05

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      ... who are on Adderall.

   6. ABAlex Berenson1:00:06

      Yes.

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:07

      Yeah. And you need to develop that kind of, like, toughness w- when you're young.

   8. ABAlex Berenson1:00:10

      Yes.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:10

      Like, you shouldn't just be, like, you know, 14 years old and then, you know, you- you run into your first, uh, you know, bit of trouble in your life and then you- you- you reach for a pill. That's terrible, right?

   10. ABAlex Berenson1:00:20

       Yes.

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:20

       That's a terrible-

   12. ABAlex Berenson1:00:21

       Yes.

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:21

       ... coping, coping mechanism. So, you know, when you teach, uh, that to kids at a- at an early age and when you tell them, it's such a terrible thing to tell someone, "Oh, you're 14 years old, you have major depressive disorder. You're gonna take this pill. You need it for the rest of your life."

   14. ABAlex Berenson1:00:36

       Right. Right.

   15. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:36

       And that's said to people all the time.

   16. ABAlex Berenson1:00:38

       Yeah. Well, listen, when-

   17. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:39

       You know, they say that, "Oh, you have a biochemical deficiency and this is what you need." We need kids to be tougher, right? So you need, you need them to, you know, build up some- s- s- some resiliency so that, you know, when they do go through hard times, you know, they have better coping mechanisms. Like Joe talks about diet and exercise all the time.

   18. ABAlex Berenson1:00:54

       Yes. Yes.

   19. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:55

       I talk about diet and exercise all the time and that's-

   20. ABAlex Berenson1:00:57

       Clearly, you guys live it. (laughs)

   21. MHDr. Michael Hart1:00:58

       And that's kinda how I got my- m- my start on- o- on social media. It is through diet and exercise.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:02

       Yeah, I think exercise is a big one for young kids.

   23. MHDr. Michael Hart1:01:05

       Yeah.

   24. ABAlex Berenson1:01:05

       Yes. Yes.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:05

       I mean, it was a gigantic factor for me personally. When I was 15 years old, I really got into martial arts and it changed my life.

   26. ABAlex Berenson1:01:11

       And Joe- Joe-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:11

       It changed my life by alleviating so much anxiety, giving me so much more relax- My parents talk about it. They're like, "There's two yous. There's you-"

   28. ABAlex Berenson1:01:19

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

       "... before martial arts and there's you after martial arts."

   30. ABAlex Berenson1:01:21

       But you have relatively young kids, I know.

Episode duration: 2:48:30