Joe Rogan Experience #1246 - Pot Debate - Alex Berenson & Dr. Michael Hart

1. 0:04 – 4:58

   Setting the stage: benefits, risks, and why this debate matters

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      ... two, one, and we're live, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, or gentleman, you too.

   2. MHDr. Michael Hart0:11

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      Ladies and gentlemen listening, but you too, uh, unless you have some non-binary handle that you enjoy. It's, it's a new world. Uh-

   4. MHDr. Michael Hart0:18

      I don't. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      Please, please introduce yourself.

   6. MHDr. Michael Hart0:21

      Sure. So, uh, I'm Dr. Mike Hart, originally from St. John's, Newfoundland. Uh, now I'm residing in London, Ontario, and I'm a family doctor. And I've been practicing cannabis medicine for just over five years.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:32

      And you, sir?

   8. ABAlex Berenson0:33

      Uh, my name's Alex Berenson. I used to be a New York Times reporter. Uh, then I became a spy novelist. And most recently, I wrote the book Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence, which came out last month and, uh, has not endeared me to the cannabis advocacy community, I'd say.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:50

      Have they, uh, attacked you mercilessly for this book?

   10. ABAlex Berenson0:54

       Yes, they have.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:54

       Yes.

   12. ABAlex Berenson0:55

       And, and that's, and that's okay. Um, uh, I've also heard from a lot of parents, uh, you know, some users, but parents who've told me, uh, that the book really encapsulates their, their family's problems-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       Hmm.

   14. ABAlex Berenson1:07

       ... in the last couple years.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       Um, I suspect m- my, my real thoughts here, before we even get started, is that we're gonna find that the truth is somewhere in the middle here. Um, I don't think marijuana is 100% safe, honestly, for everybody. I really don't. I know too many people that have had experiences where they took too much, particularly edibles, and, uh, I don't, I don't wanna say I know anybody who had psychotic breaks, but I know some people that freaked out for weeks, you know. In fact, uh, we just had a, uh, a comedian here from Brazil, um, a couple days ago, Rafi Bastos, who said he took a couple of hits of a vape pen and was high for 14 days.

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart1:50

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:50

       Went to a psychiatrist and, and he's a big guy. He's like 6 foot 5, 6'6", you know, and, you know, they told him to keep taking it 'cause, you know, he's like, "You're so big. Just keep smoking." And so he, he doesn't smoke, so he just kept hitting his vape pen, and he said, "I was high for fucking two weeks."

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart2:06

       Yeah, so you need to do it properly, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Yes.

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart2:08

       It needs to be held to the same standard as any other medicine.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:11

       Yeah.

   22. MHDr. Michael Hart2:11

       So we need to identify that there's risks and there's benefits to it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:15

       Yes.

   24. MHDr. Michael Hart2:15

       Right? And, and some people are definitely, you know, going to be more susceptible to those risks.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Yeah.

   26. MHDr. Michael Hart2:21

       And we need to kinda, you know, tease out those people and make sure that those people, you know, don't, uh, put themselves at risk.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:27

       Yeah, I, I think so as well. And this is one of the reasons why I wanna state this, 'cause I'm a well-known marijuana advocate, but I, I do believe, I believe absolutely there are great benefits to it. I think there's great benefits in terms of, uh, relieving pressure, ocular pressure for people that have glaucoma, people with AIDS who are on medication, people with cancer that are going through chemotherapy find great benefit in terms of helping them. And then there's also some people with autism, I know people that, who, their children have autism, and they give them small amounts of edible marijuana and it stops seizures. It's incredibly beneficial in the form of CBD for a lot of different ailments. But I think with all things, and this is a, a stance that I've kind of, like, really come to accept over the last few years, with all things that affect the mind, they affect everyone slightly differently.

   28. MHDr. Michael Hart3:17

       Absolutely. Yeah. Alex, you wanted to say something there?

   29. ABAlex Berenson3:19

       Um, no, no. Well, first of all, I, I suspect... You know, there are people who said, "Don't go on with Joe. He's just gonna, you know, he's gonna try to eat you alive, and, and especially there'll be, it'll be two on one." I told them the truth. First of all, I, I'll go on with anybody, and I am glad you had me on or you're having me on because, uh, you know, Bill Maher, he won't have me on. He's afraid to talk to me about this.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       Why?
2. 4:58 – 8:44

   Is cannabis safer than alcohol? Deaths, attribution, and “associated” harms

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart4:58

      I don't... I really strongly disagree with that. And I mean, you just have to look at the death rate, right? Uh, you know, more people die from alcohol than, you know, almost all drugs combined. But when we're looking at cannabis, there's zero deaths attributed to the use of cannabis itself. Sure, you could say, you know, someone could use cannabis and, and jump off a cliff or something like that, but we're talking about the lethal dose. You cannot die from cannabis. And just based upon that alone, it makes it much, much safer than alcohol. So in addition-

   2. ABAlex Berenson5:30

      Yeah, how could-

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      How could you say that if, if that is the case?

   4. ABAlex Berenson5:33

      So, okay, so that's a really good question. Uh, the normal number that's used for US deaths from alcohol is about 90,000. Now, about-30 to 40,000 of, of those deaths are deaths from the physical effects of alcohol, right? Essentially liver damage.

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart5:46

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ABAlex Berenson5:46

      Either chronic liver damage, you get cirrhosis, you die. In some cases, you can drink so much that you kill yourself in a night. Uh, so that's about 30 to 40,000 deaths. The other deaths are generally associated with alcohol, meaning somebody, uh, drank-

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart6:01

      Violence.

   8. ABAlex Berenson6:01

      Exactly. Violence, suicide, car accidents and the, all those numbers are basically based on studies from the '90s and before, where, you know, people looked at traffic accidents and there were a certain number of those accidents where people had a blood alcohol content of higher than 0.1. They said, "Okay, that's an alcohol associated death." That's a fine way to count as far as I'm concerned. Nobody has ever done that count for cannabis, and I can tell you based on the, on the tox screens that I've seen from Colorado, where people, uh, had cannabis in their blood and committed suicide, people had cannabis in their, or I should say THC in their blood and, uh, and got into fatal confrontations with police officers, if, if, if and when we do this number for cannabis, which we need to do as soon as possible, the number's (laughs) gonna be a lot higher than zero. I suspect it will be in the 10 to 20,000 range. We won't know till we actually do it.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart6:52

      Okay, but let's, let's eliminate ... Let's go even over the alcohol. Let's eliminate all things like violence and let's eliminate suicide, and let's assume those people would've committed violence and committed suicide without it. You're still looking at a giant number of people who drink themselves to death.

   10. ABAlex Berenson7:08

       Yes. (laughs)

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart7:08

       Thousands and thousands and thousands of people every year versus zero with marijuana. And you're aware, I'm sure, that correlation does not equal causation, and that especially in a place like Colorado where you're dealing with cannabis, something that stays in the system for many, many weeks, if you're testing people and they test positive for marijuana and they wind up committing suicide or they wind up committing violence, they don't ne- even necessarily have to have been under the influence of it.

   12. ABAlex Berenson7:35

       Well, y- as you know, there's ... Wh- when you test the blood, you can test the, both the active metabolite and the inactive metabolite of THC.

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart7:41

       Right.

   14. ABAlex Berenson7:41

       So, so the test, when you do a blood test on somebody who's, you know, who's committed suicide, it's sophisticated enough to tease that out.

   15. MHDr. Michael Hart7:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ABAlex Berenson7:48

       Um, so there's a lot of people who have the active metabolite in their blood. Um, I, I agree. Alcohol is a physically toxic substance. Cannabis is a neurotoxin for a lot of people.

   17. MHDr. Michael Hart7:57

       But in addition to, you know, the deaths, there's also just the morbidity, uh, that, that's associated with alcohol. I mean, it ruins people's lives. It ruins marriages. Uh, it leads to weight gain. It leads to a lot of metabolic disturbances, right? So ... Well, you could ... I think you could say that for some people with marijuana too. I think you could say some people, especially weight gain, that some people smoke a lot of pot and they get lazy and they start eating Cheetos all day.

   18. ABAlex Berenson8:19

       (laughs)

   19. MHDr. Michael Hart8:19

       And, and you can also say that e- with some people, you know, the wake and bakers that, you know, seem to be wasting their lives away, and that's like the stereotypical negative con- ... You know, the ... When you, when you're talking about a negative description of a marijuana user, it's the wake and baker, right? The person who's high all the time.

   20. ABAlex Berenson8:35

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MHDr. Michael Hart8:35

       You could absolutely say that could rel- ruin relationships. You could absolutely say that would ruin your job.

   22. ABAlex Berenson8:40

       Uh-

   23. MHDr. Michael Hart8:40

       Eh, you could, but again too, you know, we're using the term marijuana-

   24. ABAlex Berenson8:44

       Mm-hmm.

3. 8:44 – 10:23

   THC vs CBD: why cannabis isn’t one thing (munchies, receptors, and THCV)

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart8:44

      And really we should be using THC or high THC when we're, when we're saying that.

   2. ABAlex Berenson8:48

      Okay.

   3. MHDr. Michael Hart8:48

      Because, you know, people who use, uh, high CBD every day, as, as we know, or most people that listen to this-

   4. ABAlex Berenson8:54

      Sure.

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart8:54

      ... probably know that CBD is non-psychoactive.

   6. ABAlex Berenson8:56

      Sure. Yeah.

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart8:56

      It does not get you high. So ... Super beneficial. Yes.

   8. ABAlex Berenson8:58

      You know, that can be-

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart8:59

      Yeah.

   10. ABAlex Berenson8:59

       ... yeah, extremely beneficial for, you know, a variety of different disorders that people have.

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart9:02

       Yeah. So, you know, we n- really need to be careful about using cannabis versus using, you know, THC because it's really- Well, I think- ... th- the THC that can do that. And to your point- Yeah. ... you know, but, you know, you say like, yeah, THC can cause the munchies, and of course that's, you know, not good for someone who, uh, doesn't wanna gain weight. And just, you know, so people know, the, the way that it does, uh, do that is when THC attaches to the CB1 receptor, you get an increase in a hormone called ghrelin. And ghrelin, uh, can actually induce hunger, and that's why people get, get, uh, the munchies. But, you know, that is not necessarily a bad thing if you're someone who has cancer-

   12. ABAlex Berenson9:37

       Sure.

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart9:37

       ... or if you're someone, you know, who, who's wasting away from, from, from a terrible illness. You know, so sometimes, you know, having, um, having the munchies is, is definitely a good thing. Um, and I know, you know, a lot of people, uh, have, have said to me, you know, "It's not available, so you should probably, you know, not talk about it as much," but there is another cannabinoid called THCV. So, you know, there's, there's over 100 cannabinoids in cannabis. THC and CBD are only two of them. You know, those are the main ones that people know about. So THCV has been shown to actually reduce appetite. So if we can get that out there in the market, you know, like we have with, with CBD, then we can almost, you know, eliminate or, or potentially, you know, substantially reduce the problem that people have with, with, uh, with THC by using it, uh, with, uh, THCV.

4. 10:23 – 13:48

   Medical vs recreational reality: who seeks cannabis care and what ‘medicine’ means

   1. ABAlex Berenson10:23

      Do- Dr. Hart, I have a question for you.

   2. MHDr. Michael Hart10:24

      Sure.

   3. ABAlex Berenson10:24

      When people come into your practice, do they, do they want high CBD products or do they wanna get intoxicated? And y-

   4. MHDr. Michael Hart10:31

      No, absolutely. Well, in Canada, it's fully legal.

   5. ABAlex Berenson10:33

      Ab- absolutely.

   6. MHDr. Michael Hart10:33

      Sure. Of course.

   7. ABAlex Berenson10:33

      Yeah.

   8. MHDr. Michael Hart10:34

      So it's like- Yeah. ... if they ... They don't need to go to him to get intoxicated.

   9. ABAlex Berenson10:36

      R- right. So people ... So you're seeing a population that is genuinely interested in the health benefits here.

   10. MHDr. Michael Hart10:41

       Absolutely. Because, I mean, if ... And, I mean, I'm glad that, that, uh, that it's legalized in Canada because it does make my job a little bit easier because be a ... Like basically everyone who's coming to me now, I know that they wanna use it medically, because if they want to use it recreationally, I mean, they just go to the store, right?

   11. ABAlex Berenson10:57

       Right.

   12. MHDr. Michael Hart10:57

       'Cause it's kind of a pain to, you know, get in to see me, come in and have the discussion, all that type of stuff. So, you know, the people who see me now, um, you know, they're all using it medically. Um, and then, you know, to, to answer, uh, your question though, Alex, almost all my patients, as soon as they come in, they say, "I don't wanna get high. I don't wanna get high." Like, that's almost what everyone says. So, you know, I think the word is out there that, uh, you know, CBD is non-psychoactive and it doesn't get you high, and I think that a lot of people are really interested in that compound. And, you know, if, if, if the people didn't have the, the, the success that they've had over the past few years, you know, it wouldn't be as popular as it is. So, you know, I think that, um, you know, we do need to look at the scientific evidence, but we do need to listen to others. And the anecdotal evidence is, you know, something that, that w- that we should consider because it is so strong. Alex, let me ask you this. Why don't you consider it medicine when it has proven medical benefits?

   13. ABAlex Berenson11:51

       Well, it obviously can be medicine for these narrow things that the FDA has approved it for, but as you know-

   14. MHDr. Michael Hart11:56

       (clears throat)

   15. ABAlex Berenson11:56

       ... I'm sure, a-... when people talk about it as medicine, when the, the, the, the, the ballot initiatives that have gotten it approved as medicine have really essentially deceived voters about the process, right? So you go to a, y- you go to a pot doctor, you get an authorization. That authorization essentially enables you to buy as much cannabis as you want for the next year. Most of the time, in reality, these doctors are not giving you a real medical examination. They're saying to you, "Hey, do you have pain? Do you have anxiety? Here's your authorization."

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart12:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ABAlex Berenson12:28

       It t-

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart12:28

       I don't think you should speak for every single doctor, though, okay?

   19. ABAlex Berenson12:31

       No, no, no. No, no, not every... No.

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart12:32

       Because we don't do that, uh, at my clinic, and I know that, you know, a lot of the clinics in Canada anyway, uh, we definitely do not do that, and, um, you know, we, we, we provide a lot of education at my clinic, and there's other clinics in Canada that also provide a lot of education.

   21. ABAlex Berenson12:44

       Sure. And, and, and I, and I imagine there's a spectrum. But in the US, this was a se- ... And, and I spoke to advocates for my book. I spoke to Rob Campia, who, you know, who ran the Marijuana Policy Project for a long time-

   22. MHDr. Michael Hart12:56

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ABAlex Berenson12:56

       ... um, for the book, and he, and he acknowledged, you know, the advocates knew that this was a backdoor route to legalization in the US.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:02

       Yeah, I, I used to joke around about it.

   25. ABAlex Berenson13:04

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:04

       That my doctor said, uh, "Why do you eat pot?" I said, "I get headaches." He said, "When do you get headaches?" I said, "Whenever I think about the fact that pot's illegal."

   27. ABAlex Berenson13:11

       (laughs)

   28. MHDr. Michael Hart13:11

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       So he wrote me a prescription.

   30. ABAlex Berenson13:13

       I mean, let's be honest about it.
5. 13:48 – 18:12

   Evidence standards clash: anecdotes vs randomized trials (and what THC actually treats)

   1. JRJoe Rogan13:48

      Epilepsy, autism, those are two huge things that happen with children that they've been shown to severely mitigate with, with edible marijuana.

   2. ABAlex Berenson13:57

      So I have to push back on you a little bit. Uh, CBD has been shown to reduce seizures in, in children with epilepsy. It's, it's FDA approved for that use.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:04

      Okay, this may be anecdotal, but I have a good friend who has a child who he uses it on, and he's showed it's, it, I mean, it's been a l- a game changer.

   4. ABAlex Berenson14:13

      Right, so there's-

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart14:13

      Yeah, I mean, I... Well, just let me interrupt for a sec. So like I had, uh, a patient four or five years ago, and, uh, she was 20 years old. She couldn't drive a car because she had seizures, right? So you can imagine being 20 years old, not being able to drive a car, all your friends are driving around. So she uses a little bit of CBD, not even every day. She's never had a seizure since.

   6. ABAlex Berenson14:35

      Okay, but I think he's-

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart14:35

      And now she's able to drive her car.

   8. JRJoe Rogan14:36

      But, but this is, we're talking about CBD. He's talking about THC.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart14:40

      So ...

   10. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       And ...

   11. ABAlex Berenson14:41

       So you're talking about, you're talking about a case, okay?

   12. JRJoe Rogan14:43

       Yeah.

   13. ABAlex Berenson14:44

       And, and I'm not saying that your friend's situation didn't happen. I'm not saying it's not real. What I'm saying is that the reason we have clinical trials is because science ... the way you know whether a medicine works or not, whether a chemical compound works, whatever that compound is, the best way to know is you give it to two groups of ... or you give, you give the real medicine to one group of people and you give a placebo to the other group. And you see the changes in those two groups over time, and you find out whether or not your theory about whether this works on a population level basis is real or not. That's how, that is at the core of medical science, and we've basically thrown that rule out for THC.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       Well, that's not entirely correct. You do know that there was, were studies that were run during the Nixon administration that showed the efficacy of marijuana and the safety of it, and those were all squashed. And you also, I'm sure you, you know like when we're talking about marijuana, you're talking about something that's federally illegal.

   15. ABAlex Berenson15:37

       Yes, of course.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:37

       It's not something that's eagle- that's easy to run these FDA studies on.

   17. ABAlex Berenson15:41

       Yes. And I do think, and I say at the end of the book, I think we should drop that. I think anybody who's got a legitimate interest in researching either THC or cannabis or any of the compounds for a, for a medical condition, let them run phase one, phase two, phase three trials. Let's see if this, if this c- if this plant is good for these things.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       I think that's a great idea. But still, why are you saying that you don't think it is medicine when all these people find benefit in it?

   19. ABAlex Berenson16:05

       So, so ...

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       Do you think they're getting it from just the CBD, the minimal amount of CBD in, in marijuana?

   21. ABAlex Berenson16:11

       No, I think that, again, there, there's been a lot of research done on THC and cannabis to see whether or not those, uh, whether THC as a compound and whether smoked cannabis can treat these conditions. And for the most part, the studies have been negative. The, again, there's-

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:26

       Negative in what way?

   23. ABAlex Berenson16:27

       Meaning they haven't shown any actual, uh, like, uh-

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:30

       Can you cite, cite these studies?

   25. ABAlex Berenson16:32

       Uh, they're ... I mention them in my book.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       Okay. Well, what, what were the conclusions of these studies when you're saying that they're not positive?

   27. ABAlex Berenson16:39

       That they, again, that they didn't work, that the drug did not work.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       Didn't work on what?

   29. ABAlex Berenson16:44

       On cancer, on Alzheimer's disease, on irritable bowel syndrome, on all kinds of-

   30. MHDr. Michael Hart16:49

       So, Alex, I mean, you know, you're throwing a, a few different things out there, and, you know, I appreciate the fact that we can't be going around, you know, saying things like, you know, "Cannabis cures cancer," right?
6. 18:12 – 27:35

   PTSD and the endocannabinoid system: Hart’s clinician argument for THC/CBD

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart18:12

      So, you know, it's, it's definitely a, a really good, um, you know, medicine for, you know, a lot of different things. And, and when we're talking about THC, you know, I, uh, I said earlier, of course, you know, we need to be careful about, about THC, but it definitely is still a medicine. And, you know, to your point with regards to, um, you know, it not being a medicine, say, for something like PTSD, you know, I come from it from a clinician's point of view, so I'm not a researcher. So I need to make sure that my patients are getting better. It's very frustrating for me just to say to someone, "Oh, there's nothing I can do for you. There's nothing I can do for you," you know? So ... And I understand that, you know, doing something sometimes, uh, is not going to be beneficial just because you're doing something. You have to do something that actually works. But, you know, we do have epidemiological studies and we have, uh, other studies that have shown that, um, you know, when, when patients are given, uh, cannabis, it can reduce their symptoms of PTSD. There's also another study. You know, I don't use this drug too often, call it, called Nabilone. So Nabilone is just pure THC. Nabilone was shown to reduce nightmares in people who have PTSD. So, you know, it's just saying just ... So just because THC is psychoactive doesn't mean that it's not a medicine. And just to keep on the topic of, of PTSD, um, in addition to that, we've identified mechanisms of action. Um, I know, I know there's one study, uh, I think Matt Hill was on the, uh ... was, was one of the authors of that study, and he noted that in people who have PTSD, there is an over 50% decrease in, uh, in levels of anandamide. So anandamide-

   2. ABAlex Berenson19:47

      Which is the naturally occurring-

   3. MHDr. Michael Hart19:49

      Yes.

   4. ABAlex Berenson19:49

      ... cannabinoid in your brain.

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart19:49

      Which is, which is, which is a naturally occurring endocannabinoid. Correct. Um, so you can get that through, through exercise, which is one excellent way to do it. You know, and that's part of the, uh, the high that y- that you get when, after you exercise. But the other way that you can get it is by using cannabis. So when, when THC attaches to those CB1 receptors, you can get a release of anandamide, and, uh, cannabidiol can actually increase anandamide, um, un- un- by another mechanism of action, uh, as well. So, you know, there's, there's different ways where we can, you know, raise a level of, of deficiency. So, you know, to me, as, as a clinician, you know, if I have someone who is not doing very well, you know, they've been on a bunch of different medications, I've identified that, you know, they have PTSD, we have a mechanisms of action, we have studies. And then again too, you know, don't discount my clinical experience, right? I've been, uh, working for over five years, you know, uh, just with, uh, just with cannabis. I mean, I do other medicines. Uh, I u- prescribe other medicines as well, but I've been doing cannabis medicine for, for over five years and, you know, there's a lot that, that I've learned, right? So as much as I've learned, you know, through reading studies, um, and, and through going to conferences and things like that, you know, for sure the, the, the best resource as a clinician is, is to learn from your patients and, and to hear what your patients tell me. And, you know, the, the things that my patients tell me is that THC is really effective for their sleep at night, and a lot of my patients, especially my veteran patients, have done really, really well w- with that. And just, just one further point too, you know, there was ... I know it was, it was in 2015 I believe it was, there was a meta-analysis done, I can pull it up if, if we need to, that indicated that, um, you know, a lot of medicines that are being used now for PTSD are just simply ineffective. And the other thing too is that there's never been a medicine made specifically for PTSD. So, all the medicines that people are using are for anxiety or they're for depression or they're for insomnia or they're f- or they're for something else, you know? But when we look at, uh, like, like a study that says people with PTSD have a lower level of anandamide, and then if you can increase that l- level of anandamide, you know, that's a good way to treat someone. It doesn't matter whether it's a vitamin, whether it's a hormone. As long as you are correcting a, a, a deficiency, you're generally gonna get excellent clinical results.

   6. ABAlex Berenson22:05

      So, so let me, let me sort of try to frame this a different way. Um, alcohol reduces blood pressure. Okay? Alcohol in s- you know, generally tends to reduce, uh, cardiovascular events for people. Um, and during Prohibition, you could actually get a doctor's note for alcohol as a medicine, but alcohol is not a medicine, okay? It's a recreational intoxicant. It has some positive biological qualities and some negative biological qualities, and, uh, you know, there was an argument I think in 10 to 20 years ago, should we recommend that people y- drink moderately, one to two drinks a day? And I think for the most part, uh, th- the medical profession has calmed down on this by saying, "Let's not do that. There's too many non-cardiac, uh, negative side effects with alcohol."

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart22:49

      Just on that note though, Alex, in Canada right now I know the safe alcohol drinking guidelines are 14 drinks a week for men-

   8. ABAlex Berenson22:56

      Right, so two, two dr-

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart22:56

      ... and nine drinks a week for, for women.

   10. ABAlex Berenson22:58

       Right.

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart22:59

       So-

   12. ABAlex Berenson22:59

       So you're saying, so, so you're saying-

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart22:59

       You know, basically it's two, two a day for men, one and a half for women, so-

   14. ABAlex Berenson23:02

       Right. So, so you're saying okay, like, there's we don't see huge negative consequences at that level. Okay. That's ...... that's fine. Like, that's a totally reasonable way to think about alcohol. But what we're not saying to people is, this is a medicine, and I think that's where the confusion around, uh, uh, really around high-THC cannabis lies. And, uh, and again, I don't mean to say that your friend's child is not benefiting. I, uh, if you say, uh, he or she's benefiting, I believe you. What I'm saying is that that's not good enough for science. We need randomized controlled trials. And when those trials have been done, and a lot of them have been done, Joe, a lot of them have been done, they've almost unequivocally shown that cannabis doesn't work as a medicine. The only actual place where, beyond these sort of very limited conditions like, uh, chemotherapy associated nausea, which obviously is terrible for people who have it, but isn't, you know, isn't that common fortunately, um, cannabis has been shown to work as a pain reliever, right? Probably for the same reasons that alcohol works as a pain reliever. It sort of dulls your awareness of your pain. But even in that study, or in those, even in those studies, they're mostly done against placebo, not against opioids or against NSAIDs like ibuprofen. And there was a very big study for cannabis, uh, use in chronic pain over a multi-year period, uh, in Australia that came out last year that showed that people who used cannabis had a, uh, had more pain and used more opiates at the end of four years than people who didn't. So that, so I, I, we're almost arguing about what medicine is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan24:36

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart24:36

       Yeah, that study though had a lot of flaws in it. And the other thing is that you need to look at someone who is already using cannabis versus someone who is just using opioids. So if someone is just using opioids and they wanna come off cannabis, um, you know, there's multi-

   17. ABAlex Berenson24:53

       Come off opiates?

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart24:54

       Oh, sorry, sorry. Come off of, of opiates with cannabis. You know, multiple studies have shown that, that that can be, uh, effective. And that's not was, what was done in the Australian study that, that you're referring to.

   19. ABAlex Berenson25:04

       Right, it's a more naturalistic, uh, approach.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:06

       Right.

   21. MHDr. Michael Hart25:06

       And, and also too, you know, they, they didn't have access to medical marijuana during that whole, during that whole time.

   22. ABAlex Berenson25:13

       Right, so people were getting it actually-

   23. MHDr. Michael Hart25:13

       Tho- those are all self-reported.

   24. ABAlex Berenson25:15

       Right.

   25. MHDr. Michael Hart25:15

       And they were getting it from, you know, recreational sources.

   26. ABAlex Berenson25:17

       Sure.

   27. MHDr. Michael Hart25:18

       They weren't getting it from... That's a big, that's a big distinction though, Alex.

   28. ABAlex Berenson25:21

       Yeah.

   29. MHDr. Michael Hart25:21

       Like, they weren't getting it from a doctor who prescribed it to them. They were, they were, this was a self-reported study and people were getting cannabis that, you know, they didn't really know what they were getting. It wasn't, uh, they weren't given any information from a doctor. And that's why it's a medicine, Alex.

   30. ABAlex Berenson25:36

       Right.
7. 27:35 – 29:46

   Accusations of selective citation: the National Academies report and ‘not balanced’ writing

   1. MHDr. Michael Hart27:35

      Yeah. And, and we need to be, you know, careful about that, right? And, and Alex, you know, you know, one thing that, that was mentioned in your book, um, you know, was that, you know, you, you ofte- you often cited the, uh, National Academies of Science and Engineering, right? But, you know, Zeva Cooper, you know, she's a member of that committee.

   2. ABAlex Berenson27:52

      Sure.

   3. MHDr. Michael Hart27:52

      I mean, she put out on, on her Twitter, I mean, you can go to it. It's from January 9th, uh, of, of 2019. She says, "In response in the recent New York Times editorial on cannabis, and as a committee member-"

   4. ABAlex Berenson28:03

      Which ca- but that, which by the way, that came out something that I wrote down and put in the book.

   5. MHDr. Michael Hart28:06

      Hang on, let me finish, Alex. Let me finish. Let me finish.

   6. ABAlex Berenson28:06

      No, no, I'm just trying to give people context of where it came from.

   7. MHDr. Michael Hart28:08

      Right. But this is, um, someone you cited.

   8. ABAlex Berenson28:11

      Yeah. Uh, no, I didn't cite her. I cited the report.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart28:12

      Okay, you cited, you cited the, the report.

   10. ABAlex Berenson28:14

       Yes. Yes.

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart28:14

       And she's a member of that, of that, okay?

   12. ABAlex Berenson28:17

       Yes.

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart28:17

       So she said, "In response to the recent New York Times editorial on cannabis as a committee member on NASM," which is that committee, "and cannabinoids report, we did not conclude that cannabis causes schizophrenia." Then the Drug Alliance Policy also said, "The report did not reach that conclusion." So, you know, those are pretty two authoritative, uh, you know, sources that, that are saying that, you know, in your book you didn't cite the research properly, right? And then also they're saying that you left lot out, right? They said that they have found an association between marijuana use and improved cognitive outcomes in individuals with psychotic disorders. That's straight from the same report. And, you know, you failed to mention that, right? So I think that, you know, when we're writing books or when we're giving out information, you know, you want to do it from a balanced approach and you don't want to just-... select, you know, the small amount of, of material that's just gonna support your study. You know, we wanna be truthful here. You know, Joe's show has always been ver- very truthful. I mean, Joe said right at, right at the beginning he doesn't think that, uh, that, that cannabis i- is perfect for everyone, and I don't think that either. And in Canada, you know, we have really strict guidelines to follow. Um, you know, basically no one prescribes THC to anyone under the age of o- of 25, and, you know, all the conferences and stuff that I go to, you know, we don't really have too many discussions about that. Like, the doctors don't really have many, you know, m- much of a backlash about that. Um, so-

8. 29:46 – 43:41

   Schizophrenia rates, data quality, and what we can’t measure in the U.S.

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:46

      Wh- why is the distinction the age of 25? Why they decide that age?

   2. MHDr. Michael Hart29:50

      So 25 basically is when your, your brain-

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:53

      Frontal lobe.

   4. MHDr. Michael Hart29:53

      ... yeah, is f- is, is, is fully developed. And when you do look, um, at the studies that do show, you know, an association between, between cannabis and, and psychosis, it's almost all in adolescence. You know, I think that Alex only has one study, um, in, in his, in his book that shows an extremely weak correlation between, um, an adult using cannabis and then developing any type of, of mental illness later. So, you know, 25, um, is, is a, is a good age, but it's definitely a, you know, kind of a, a conservative-ish, -ish age. But, you know, it's, it's something that, that we follow, and I think that, you know, we've done well with that in Canada.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:30

      So, Alex, why did you leave those conclusions outta your book?

   6. ABAlex Berenson30:33

      So I wi- I wi- I need to push back here.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:34

      Okay.

   8. ABAlex Berenson30:35

      Um, so the National Academy of Medicine, uh, report, uh, was, uh, drawn up by a committee of 16 researchers. Uh, Ziva Cooper is the one who's publicly said, "The report said this, uh, but I think that we should've, uh, emphasized that it also said this," okay? What I, what I wrote in that New York Times op-ed, uh, what I wrote in the book, is the plain language of the report, and the plain language is this: Cannabis use is associated with a risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychoses. The higher the use, the greater the risk. I may have a word or two wrong in that 'cause I'm doing it from memory, but that's what it said. And by the way, the committee was very clear. They separated, uh, depression. They said, "There, we don't see as nearly as high risk for depression as psychosis," uh, even though, by the way, today, just today, uh, JAMA Psychiatry, the Journal of the American Medical Association Psychiatry, uh, put out a meta-analysis s- showing that cannabis is associated with depression, uh, and suicidal thinking, uh, and actually suicide attempts at a three-and-a-half to one rate. This l- this literally was released today. Um, but to, but to go back, Ziva is one of 16 members of that committee. So if you're gonna talk... If you're gonna say that I misquoted the report, which I didn't, I quoted it entirely accurately, you need to say, "Well, why aren't the other 15 members of that committee saying that I misquoted?" Why is one person who works for the Cannabis Research Initiative at UCLA, which takes money from cannabis investors and users, she's the one who said that I misquoted it. Maybe she... M- Maybe we should ask why the other members of the committee are not speaking out against my book.

   9. MHDr. Michael Hart32:15

      Well, I think that she was just one of the 16 members that, that came out, but, you know, you can't really expect, uh, all the other members to, to potentially, you know, come out with that as well.

   10. ABAlex Berenson32:24

       W- Why not? Why not?

   11. MHDr. Michael Hart32:25

       Well, some people will, and s- and-

   12. ABAlex Berenson32:26

       If I, if I did something wrong, if I misquoted them.

   13. MHDr. Michael Hart32:28

       Well, some people will and some people won't. You know, some people have, you know, the personality. Some people have the platform, like, you know, Ziva has a bunch of followers on, on her Twitter. People know who she is. You know, a lot of people who do research actually are not into social media at all. Like, I don't think you were at all before you, you had your book, were you?

   14. ABAlex Berenson32:45

       Uh, yeah. I mean, or I was a novelist-

   15. MHDr. Michael Hart32:46

       Right?

   16. ABAlex Berenson32:46

       ... so I was promoting my book, but sure.

   17. MHDr. Michael Hart32:47

       Okay. Yeah, so, so you weren't into social media at all. So, you know, I don't think that most people on that committee are in- are into social media. You know, Ziva just, just happens to be, and, you know, I even spoke to Ziva, uh, on the phone about this, and, you know, and, and, and she said that, "Yeah, you know, I, I don't..." uh, that she agrees with everything that was in the report, but she doesn't agree with your conclusions. And to go back to what-

   18. ABAlex Berenson33:09

       My conclusions are quoted from the report.

   19. MHDr. Michael Hart33:11

       But you're only quoting... They're... But you're only quoting the parts that, that cite, or, or sorry, that back your, uh, y- your opinions. You're not quoting the entire part. Like, you left... Like, why did you leave out the part that said they have found an association between marijuana use and improved cognitive outcomes in individuals with psychotic disorders, right? So you're leaving out that part, so why'd you leave that part out?

   20. ABAlex Berenson33:34

       If, if you, if you can-

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:34

       Why did you leave out that part?

   22. ABAlex Berenson33:35

       If you can find me a psychiatrist who thinks that it's a good idea for somebody with an active psychotic disorder-

   23. MHDr. Michael Hart33:40

       Okay, but why did you leave out that part?

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:42

       But why did you leave out that part?

   25. ABAlex Berenson33:43

       Well, my book presents... Uh, it makes a case, right? It makes a case that this is a big issue that we have not heard about at all, and the reasons that we haven't heard about it have a lot to do with the advocacy community and the way they've presented this data for 25 years. I wrote a book that is trying to break through a lot of noise.

   26. JRJoe Rogan34:03

       So, but, still, like, to, to get a balanced approach, did you decide that you were only going to s-

   27. ABAlex Berenson34:10

       I, I say, I say in the introduction-

   28. JRJoe Rogan34:10

       ... that you were only going to write about things that confirm your, the belief that you held when you were writing this, and what you were trying to push in the title of the book and in, in the conclusion of the book?

   29. ABAlex Berenson34:22

       I think that's a really great question. I say in the introduction of the book this book is not balanced.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:26

       Okay.
9. 43:41 – 1:18:04

   Social media vs cannabis as drivers of youth distress: suicide stats and interpretation fights

   1. JRJoe Rogan43:41

      Can I-

   2. ABAlex Berenson43:42

      And it's, uh-

   3. JRJoe Rogan43:42

      Can I stop you for a second there? Because there's other factors.

   4. ABAlex Berenson43:44

      Oh, sure.

   5. JRJoe Rogan43:44

      And one of the big one is Yuval Noah Harari has a great book, uh, 21 Lessons for the 21st Century.

   6. ABAlex Berenson43:49

      Yeah, I wro- I read that. It's a nice book, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan43:50

      It's great. And, uh, one of the things they talk about is the onset of social media. Uh, Jonathan Haidt talked about that as well.

   8. ABAlex Berenson43:56

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan43:56

      And, uh, that the onset of social media, it was actually more Haidt than, uh, Y- Yuval N- Harari. But the, uh, Jonathan Haidt talks about it with young people.

   10. ABAlex Berenson44:05

       Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan44:05

       I think it's the cotton ball of the American mind, yeah. I think that social media and the pressures of social media have led an incredible amount of young people to, uh, serious mental distress and, you know, serious anxiety, serious depression, and suicide amongst young girls has increased some 50% according to Haidt, um, o- over the period of 2007 to, I think, 2000 and whenever his book was written. Uh, and I think they're directly correlating that to the pressures of social media and to, you know, anonymous online bullying and all these different factors that are affecting kids.

   12. MHDr. Michael Hart44:39

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan44:39

       So I think that, uh, that could be considered a, a far more significant new, uh, form of, of, of distress to children and y- and young people than even marijuana.

   14. MHDr. Michael Hart44:51

       I think it does it twofold, because I think that, you know, what makes people really depressed, maybe more so than, than anxious, but definitely both, is that when you compare yourself to someone else.

   15. ABAlex Berenson45:02

       Yes.

   16. MHDr. Michael Hart45:02

       And, you know, people, you know, obviously th- we've done that, you know, all, all humans have done that, you know, since th- since history began. But now everything is online. You can compare your life to everyone and people are doing it all the time. And even worse than that, and, you know, we should talk about this too, is that the income gap is getting, is getting wider. So it's like people's lives, not only are they getting, you know, better than, than, than other people's lives, but it's, but it now it's on, it's on display so everyone can see it. Whereas before, you know, maybe you wouldn't, you wouldn't have seen it because it wasn't on social media.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:34

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MHDr. Michael Hart45:34

       But now it's, it's on social media. So you have this huge income gap that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then you have people going, going on social media and they're comparing themselves. And you're absolutely right, especially in that, in that age population.

   19. ABAlex Berenson45:47

       Right.

   20. MHDr. Michael Hart45:47

       I mean, people under, under the age of 30, you know, they're definitely, um, you know, they're, they're being bullied online. Like I see it every day in my office. Like literally every day people are being bullied online. And that's, you know, something that I never had, you know, to deal with, uh, growing up.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:02

       Yeah.

   22. MHDr. Michael Hart46:02

       Um, and, you know, a lot of kids do have, do have to, to, to deal with that. Just one more note too-

   23. ABAlex Berenson46:07

       Oh, sure.

   24. MHDr. Michael Hart46:08

       ... uh, on the, uh, since Colorado has, has, has legalized cannabis, this is important for, for this, uh, this, this subject and this topic. Um, they've actually seen marijuana rates decrease. So it's important for people to know that, you know, just be-

   25. ABAlex Berenson46:22

       No, not, no, no, no, no. They haven't seen-

   26. MHDr. Michael Hart46:23

       Yeah, I can, I can pull up the study.

   27. ABAlex Berenson46:25

       Did- are you talking about teen, teen use or overall use?

   28. MHDr. Michael Hart46:26

       Oh, I-

   29. ABAlex Berenson46:26

       Overall use has gone up.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:28

       Teen use is flat, overall use is up.

Episode duration: 2:48:30