Joe Rogan Experience #1295 - Tulsi Gabbard

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Tulsi’s 2020 mission: end regime-change wars and reinvest at home

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      Three, two, one. And we're back. What's up? How are you?

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard0:04

      We're back.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      Good to see you.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard0:05

      Hello. I'm good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      So-

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard0:05

      Nice to be back here.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      ... when you first came here, you were thinking about running for president.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard0:10

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Now, you're out there.

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard0:11

       We're all in.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:11

       It's happening.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard0:12

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:12

       Are you nervous?

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard0:13

       No.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:13

       Is it weird?

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard0:14

       No.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:15

       No?

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard0:15

       Not at all.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:15

       None of it? Well, do you feel like this is like destiny?

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard0:18

       No, um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       So how does it not feel weird?

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard0:20

       I'm on a mission.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Oh.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard0:21

       I'm on a mission. Uh, you know, there, there's a lot of issues I think we're gonna talk about about why I'm running for president, uh, but being out and connecting with people all across this country, bringing this message, um, really of, of ending these wasteful destructive, uh, foreign policies that have been so costly on the American people for so long, costly on our troops, costly on our veterans, ending these wasteful regime change wars, ending this new Cold War and nuclear arms race, and taking the trillions of dollars that we've been spending on these programs and, and that we will continue to spend if the status quo is allowed to continue, and investing those dollars back into serving the people in our communities, serving the people of this country, things like healthcare, education, infrastructure, uh, protecting our environment, clean water. There's so much that we need to do. We've got limited resources to accomplish that.

2. 1:16 – 6:10

   Why the U.S. fights: Iraq’s “WMD” narrative, oil interests, and Venezuela parallels

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:16

      These are my favorite things that you talk about. Um, my question is always, though, why do we spend so much time and money and at, at such a titanic human cost-

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard1:28

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:29

      ... for these regi- regime ch- change wars?

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard1:30

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:31

      What do you think is the cause? Like other than the obvious l- if, if we, you have a dictator that's in place, there's an obvious outcry like Saddam Hussein post 9/11.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard1:41

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:41

      Other than that, what i- what is the reason why we invest so much time and energy into regime change war-

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard1:49

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:49

      ... so much so that we've just accepted that this is a part of our gross economy? Like, if we're gonna take all the money that the United States earns and all the money that goes to taxes, we just automatically-

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard2:01

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       ... put a gigantic chunk of that into investing in these wars in other countries.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard2:07

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       Why-

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard2:07

       Blindly.

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:08

       Why is that?

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard2:08

       Blindly, almost, without any kind of, um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:10

       It's a tradition.

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard2:11

       ... real accountability. Uh, $6 to $8 trillion is what's estimated that's been spent since 9/11 alone on these regime change wars, without even taking into account, uh, what the cost will continue to be to take care of our veterans, those who have gone and, and fought in these wars and have come home dealing with, you know, visible and invisible wounds that, that they'll have to live with for, for the rest of their lives. Let's start back. You mentioned Saddam Hussein. Uh, I don't think it was necessarily an obvious outcry. Saddam Hussein, uh, and the toppling of his regime was done for oil, right?

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       Right.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard2:50

       It was done for financial reasons. And the architects of that Iraq war, uh, sold it in the guise of, "Hey, Saddam Hussein is working with Al-Qaeda, those terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, and he's gonna give them his weapons of mass destruction," both of which turned out to be false, false intelligence and lies that were sold to the American people, sold to soldiers, people like me, uh, who, who believed what they said. You know, I enlisted after 9/11, like so many people in this country, to go after the terrorists who had attacked us on that day, killing thousands of Americans. And they sold this lie, uh, for financial gain, for oil. You, you look at some of the architects of that Iraq war, guys like John Bolton, who today is President Trump's National Security, uh, Council Director, and you look at what's happening in Venezuela, almost the very same playbook being used, where they're selling this, this regime change effort, uh, threatening to use US military force to go in and topple a regime under the guise of humanitarianism when in fact, and Bolton has said this on national television, that, well, we really want to make sure that American oil companies are able to go in and access that oil-rich country in Venezuela.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:06

       So you think that's why there's so much turmoil in that country right now, th- this is, this battle over regime change because the fact they wanna control the oil?

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard4:15

       I think the, the US coming in and trying to insert itself into what is happening in Venezuela is what, is what is the problem. So they're doing that through, uh, very, very heavy sanctions, uh, they're doing that through various means and threatening to use our military to go in and topple the regime there rather than taking the approach that I would take as president, which is to recognize that the people of Venezuela, like people in other countries in the world, need to be the ones to determine their governance and their future. Just like we wouldn't want any other country to come in and threaten to use their military to topple our government or to tell us who should or shouldn't be the leaders in our country, we shouldn't be doing that in their country. There are, uh, serious issues that are causing a lot of suffering for the Venezuelan people. If we really want to be helpful, we should be a force to help move towards reconciliation and peace rather than what this administration is doing, which is, uh, throwing fuel on the flames of a civil war that'll be devastating, devastating.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:23

       When you say move towards reconciliation and peace-

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard5:25

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       ... how so?

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard5:26

       Well, you see there's differences, right? There's the people who are with the current government in Venezuela, and there is the opposition. Clearly, they have differences on what kind of future, what kind of governance, and who should lead that government, uh, going forward. Rather than threatening to use the United States, United States coming in and trying to act once again as the world's police, uh, which by the way throughout history has not had good results, not for the people in those countries, what to speak of the cost that, uh, we the American people pay, rather than saying, "Hey, let's, let's work towards peace, try to push for diplomacy and find what are the conditions that would make some form of reconciliation-"

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       Mm-hmm.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard6:08

       ... uh, going forward.

3. 6:10 – 10:24

   The interventionist argument vs. real outcomes: Iraq, Libya, Syria, and “power vacuums”

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:10

      Is there an argument, and I'm, I really don't know the, uh, the answer to this. But is there an argument that these regime change wars, although terrible, we would be way worse off if those weren't in place?

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard6:21

      I think that's an argument that proponents for regime change wars try to make but history shows and proves that the very opposite is true. Uh, look at Iraq, you can look at Libya, you can look at Syria, you can look at Guatemala and Ecuador, you can look at other countries, uh, Iran, where in the past we have either overtly or covertly through the CIA gone in and toppled, uh, leaders of countries or dictators or regimes. And the result has been more suffering for the people in those countries. Their lives have been made worse off, not only in the short-term but in the long-term, and the cost once again to the American people has also taken a toll as we see more and more of our hard-earned taxpayer dollars going to pay for these wars, uh, these regime change efforts that are counter to our national security interests, counter to the interests of the American people, and counter to the interests of the people in those countries.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:17

      So, is this one of those things that's just a counterintuitive thing, where you would think that getting rid of someone like Gaddafi would be a good idea? He's a terrible, evil person. But they get rid of him and now Libya's a failed state.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard7:31

      It's, it's horrible what is happening in Libya as a result of that. As you said-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:35

      I mean, you can watch slave auctions on YouTube.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard7:37

      Exactly.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:37

      It's insane.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard7:38

      Exactly.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:39

      It's, it's hard to imagine that an era of YouTube and slave auctions exist in a place that, you know, at least some part of the blame has to be on us supporting the rebels that went in and took out Gaddafi. Like, it's not good to have ... See, it's one of those counterintuitive things, right?

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard7:55

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       Where it's not good to have an evil person in control of a country-

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard7:58

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:58

       ... but it's also not good to kill them.

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard8:00

       I think it's, it's, it-

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       We get rid of them and then this power vacuum, right?

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard8:03

       Yeah. It's that, um, it, it, it's, it's hard to accept sometimes the reality that there are bad people in the world. There are leaders of countries who are doing bad things against their people. What the real question is, is we recognize this is the world that exists in reality, not the world that we wish, uh, existed. And then the question is for the leaders of our country is, what role should the United States play? Does it make sense to try to act as the world's police, as we have been for far too long? Both as we look at what is in the best interests of the American people, what's in the best interests of our national security, as well as, uh, what impact will our actions have on the people in these countries? And with Libya, not only do we see strengthened terrorist groups, there are terrorist groups all over Libya now. A failed state, the Libyan people are suffering, uh, now far more than they were before, but we see the ramifications of that in countries like North Korea. Where, again, John Bolton and the Trump administration is talking about using the Libya model with North Korea as we work towards this objective of denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula. Uh, one of the leaders in the North Korean government just said the other day, "The United States government is talking about using the Libya model with North Korea to get them to get rid of their nuclear weapons. They don't want to end up like Libya or Iraq." Where in Libya, as you remember, the United States went in and told Gaddafi, "Hey, get rid of your nuclear weapons program and we're not gonna come after you." And he did, he got rid of it. And what happened a very short time later, the United States and other countries went in and took him out. So, that action and that decision and that policy is directly undermining our national security and our efforts to make us and the world more safe to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:01

       So, would the argument for regime change wars being that ... Would it be that if we didn't go over there and if we didn't have a military presence, and we didn't make them fight against us, that they would somehow or another gain more power and they would, we would deal with this evil superpower? Is this, is this like the worst case scenario for the pro-interventionalist foreign policy?

4. 10:24 – 12:28

   Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the “humanitarian” double standard

   1. TGTulsi Gabbard10:24

      It's, I, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even go that far. I mean, the, the argument that's made by people who are advocating for these regime change wars is we've got to do something to help people who are suffering. That's generally the argument-

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:38

      Right.

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard10:38

      ... that's made. Uh, and they sell this to the American people knowing that, "Hey, we, uh, we have, we have good hearts and we want to help people if we can." But what they fail to do is to tell the truth-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:51

      Yeah.

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard10:52

      ... and be honest about what they are hiding behind this guise of humanitarianism.

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:57

      Right.

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard10:58

      I mean, if you look at Saudi Arabia, for example, and you look at the kinds of atrocities that that theocratic dictatorship, uh, is conducting against its own people, decapitating LGBTQ people, persecuting religious minorities, uh, being the biggest propagator of this, this most extreme intolerant ideology of Islam that is fueling terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, waging a genocidal war in Yemen, killing tens of thousands of people. Uh, you know, that murder of the journalist in Turkey, the list goes on and on and on. Yet, what are we hearing from leaders in our government? Both Democrats and Republicans. "Saudi Arabia is a great ally of the United States." But then you look at what's happening in Venezuela. Ready to launch our military to go in and take out another dictator, ready to go in and launch our military, ready, uh, to go and wage a war against Iran. So this is, this is evidence of the hypocrisy that exists between those who are waging regime change war in some countries, by the way, usually countries that don't have nuclear weapons, and usually countries where they have some other underlying interests and ulterior motive which is not helping the people of those countries. And then when it's convenient for them, countries like Saudi Arabia sidling up to a country whose leadership directly and indirectly (laughs) supports Al-Qaeda, the very terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, who we are trying to defeat.

5. 12:28 – 21:26

   Syria controversy: meeting Assad, “Assad apologist” smears, and the Stop Arming Terrorists Act

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:28

      Your position on Syria is one that I think people have misconstrued. Why, why don't you tell me how-

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard12:34

      That's putting it nicely. (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:35

      That's, yeah, is trying to put it as nicely as possible.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard12:37

      Yes. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:37

      They've actually said that you are a, an Assad supporter. I know that's not correct.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard12:42

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:43

      But is that one of those things where people just say that in order to sort of diffuse you, to, to categorize you as a ridiculous person right off the bat where no one can take anything else you say seriously?

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard12:52

      Yeah. It's, it's the usual tactic of, uh, trying to smear or vilify me and my campaign and, and what I'm advocating for, uh, because they don't want to engage on the actual issue itself that I'm pointing out about how devastating and costly their policies are of continuing to wage these wasteful regime change wars, of choosing to support terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda in Syria, directly in Syria because they are the most powerful force on the ground who's fighting to take out the regime, Assad's government. So they're so focused on toppling this government in Syria that they're willing to actually use taxpayer dollars to provide direct and indirect support to Al-Qaeda terrorists in Syria. When you think about how crazy this is, uh, it, uh, it, it makes me angry. I think it makes most people angry. It's why I introduced legislation called the Stop Arming Terrorists Act. Why we would need to have such legislation is beyond me, but, uh, clearly we do to make it so that we don't have any taxpayer dollars going directly to provide any kind of arms or support or, or anything to terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda. But also to make it so that we are not providing support indirectly through countries like Saudi Arabia who are providing that support, uh, to terrorist groups.

   9. JRJoe Rogan14:16

      So what, what has been said of you about Assad and your, your position on Assad that's just been an outright lie?

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard14:25

       Uh, virtually everything. I mean, I'll just tell you what happened. I went to Syria, uh, to, to meet with Syrian people, to hear for myself from them about what was happening there. Uh, while there, I was offered the invitation to meet with the President of Syria, and I took it because I think it's important for us to have the courage to meet with leaders, whether they be friends or adversaries or potential adversaries if our focus is on national security and on peace. So I went, and I had that meeting. And I asked some tough questions and, uh, heard from him his perspective on what was happening and what he was, uh, doing in his country and took the opportunity while there to meet with religious leaders, college students, members of the political opposition, small business owners, um, you know, women who were working to, to start their own business to empower other women, Shia, Sunnis, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, people of all different religions. Uh, it is because of that and that meeting and my staunch opposition to regime change wars in Syria and in other countries that political opponents and others have chosen to try to smear me, my reputation, and my campaign, uh, and to label me as you said, "You know, she's a supporter of this dictator." Well, if that's true, then anyone who opposed the Iraq war is a Saddam Hussein lover, is a lover of dictators and loves Saddam Hussein. So if you challenge (laughs) their logic, you see how shallow it is and there's really none there and, and what's exposed is, um, their refusal to engage on the facts and to stand behind why they continue to put the American people through these costly regime change wars and why they continue to wage these wars that are causing incredible suffering for people in different parts of the world.

   11. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       It al- it also, when you're having these conversations which are incredibly m- incredibly important globally, when you choose to distort people's positions like this, you're not helping anybody.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard16:38

       No.

   13. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       You, you're making the whole thing more confusing.

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard16:41

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       So for someone like me who's on the outside, (coughs) excuse me, and then has to watch all this go down, I, I have to go, well, why, why w- why do you have reasonable people that make inaccurate statements about someone because they feel like if you do not, i- if you don't refuse a meeting with Assad, there's something wrong with you, right?

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard17:00

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:00

       Like, d- to not want to be in the presence of this person-

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard17:04

       Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, um, there's so much hypocrisy around this. You know, a lot of these people are the same people who applauded President Obama when he first ran for president in 2008 when he, I mean, he did, he caused some controversy at that time saying, yes, he would meet with the leader of Iran without pre-conditions, that he would meet with leaders of other countries in that pursuit of national security and peace.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       Yeah.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard17:31

       So why the double standard here that, okay, so in order to keep our country safe, in order to achieve peace, we're only gonna meet with our friends and people who we agree with. That's not how you accomplish that mission. That's not how you accomplish security and peace. It doesn't make sense.

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:48

       No, it's like a social media version of running the world.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard17:50

       Yeah. (laughs) Sadly.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:52

       Sadly. Now, had you ever met anyone like Assad before?

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard17:56

       Um, no.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       What was that like?

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard17:58

       No. Uh, he was eager to meet. He was eager to be heard, frankly.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       Does he speak English?

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard18:04

       Very well.

   29. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       Really?

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard18:05

       Yeah. I think he was educated in Europe. Um, a dentist if I'm not mistaken. Uh, is in, in the med- maybe he's an eye doctor. He's n- in the medical field.
6. 21:26 – 25:49

   Veteran perspective and accountability: war decisions vs. lived costs

   1. JRJoe Rogan21:26

      But, you know, we don't want to send our sons and daughters over there to go do that for the... Do, now, if I put my tinfoil hat on-

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard21:33

      We don't.

   3. JRJoe Rogan21:34

      ... we don't-

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard21:34

      We don't. We, the American people, don't.

   5. JRJoe Rogan21:36

      Yes.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard21:36

      But this is the problem, and this is, this is something that I realized very quickly during my first deployment to Iraq where I was seeing firsthand the cost of war, serving in that medical unit every single day. And I, I wondered how many politicians in Washington who voted for or advocated for or championed that war in Iraq were laying away at night... awake at night thinking about my brothers and sisters who were getting killed in combat, who were getting severely wounded, who were getting blown up by IEDs. And I, I, I, I learned very quickly, uh, that they were not.

   7. JRJoe Rogan22:13

      Yeah.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard22:13

      They weren't thinking about the real cost and the ramifications and the consequences of their decisions.

   9. JRJoe Rogan22:18

      Jamie, who were we talking with the other day we were trying to say that we think that if you want to be the commander in chief, that you should probably have served? Who was that? It was a recent podcast. CT Fletcher, yes, I believe that it was him, yeah, who is a veteran as well.

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard22:34

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan22:34

       Um, that's one thing that you have over them, for sure, is that you understand from firsthand experience and sacrifice what it means to actually be in war and then to be in combat.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard22:45

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, over... I, I still serve in the Army National Guard now, over, over 16 years. Uh, I've deployed twice to the Middle East. And, uh, coupled with my experience in, in Congress, serving over six years on the Foreign Affairs and the Armed Services Committees, working intimately on these issues related to national security and our foreign policy, meeting with leaders of different countries in the world. Uh, it is these experiences and the understanding that I've gained from them that best equip me to walk in the door, walk into the Oval Office on day one, ready to do the job of president, and most importantly, commander in chief.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:24

       What hurdles are you encountering that you didn't expect?

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard23:31

       Uh, you know, a lot of what's happening are things that, that, that we kind of did expect, you know? The, the smear campaigns-

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:40

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard23:40

       ... the, the misinformation campaigns. Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Do you think that's, that someone's doing this on purpose or do you think this is team mentality in action, where people are supporting a particular candidate and they look at you as being competition of that candidate? Like, what do you think is happening?

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard23:54

       I think it's probably a combination. Um, you know, I'm, I'm challenging the establishment, challenging the status quo, challenging the foreign policy establishment, uh, and challenging the political establishment in calling things as I see them, calling it straight, and, and speaking the truth, whether that be calling out leaders within my own party or leaders of the other political party. And, um, you know, I think that, that strikes fear in a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it, at a minimum, and who are concerned because when, you know, we the people rise up and say, "Hey, what's really going on here?" We're, we're calling out self-serving politicians in Washington from both political parties who are putting their own political interests-... or the interests of their party ahead of the interests of the people. Or they're putting the interests of, you know, whatever greedy corporation and their lobbyist is writing the biggest checks to their campaigns ahead of the interests of the people. So the more this awareness comes out, the more people stand up and speak out and say, "Hey, this is unacceptable. This is unacceptable." Then it's threatening that very power base that they, um, have, have thrived and, and lived off of for far too long.

   19. JRJoe Rogan25:09

       We should talk about how you're funded too-

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard25:10

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan25:10

       ... just so people understand your position.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard25:12

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:13

       So pl-

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard25:13

       People-powered campaign.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:14

       100%.

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard25:14

       We take no, no PAC contributions, no lobbyist contributions. Every single dollar that comes to my campaign for president is coming from individual people across this country, whether it's a dollar or a thousand dollars, people who are giving whatever they can, uh, and joining this movement.

   27. JRJoe Rogan25:33

       There's a great joke. I've, I think it's from Dennis Miller. I hope I'm not misquoting it. But it's he was talking about how politicians wear patches on their jackets like NASCAR drivers.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard25:42

       Seriously.

   29. JRJoe Rogan25:43

       (laughs)

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard25:43

       That is. (laughs)
7. 25:49 – 36:25

   Military-industrial complex: Eisenhower’s warning, lobbying, and the revolving door

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:49

      I ... W- what ... If I put my tinfoil hat on, when I talk about these interventionist f- foreign policy wars and, and regime change wars, the, the tinfoil hat thinks military-industrial complex.

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard26:01

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:01

      People being asked or forced into making decisions that benefit these giant corporations that makes w- make weapons and profit off of war.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard26:11

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:11

      This is the worst case scenario in t- in terms of conspiracy theories, the idea that someone wants war so that they can make money and they don't care if people die, even needlessly. This is our number one conspiracy fear, right? If you had to think about of all the things that you hope are not true about the way the world works-

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard26:29

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:29

      ... that would probably be number one.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard26:30

      Well, you can take your tinfoil hat off, because the military-industrial complex is a real thing. This is something that, um, President Eisenhower talked about.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:42

      Which is an amazing speech.

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard26:43

       Amazing speech. His, his last speech-

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:46

       Yeah.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard26:46

       ... as president of the United States. Of all the things that he could talk about, he chose to focus on the military-industrial complex-

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       Should we play that right now?

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard26:53

       ... and how dangerous it is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:55

       I feel like we should play that.

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard26:56

       Yes. Absolutely.

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:57

       Just 'cause it's, it's so-

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard26:57

       Play that clip.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       It's so crazy and most people have never heard it before. And you hear about the term military-industrial complex, and one thing that has been done that's, uh, really interesting is the word conspiracy has become a dirty word.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard27:10

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:10

       And that dirty word, uh, or a, a word that's ... it, it's, it's easy to make something silly by calling it a conspiracy.

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard27:17

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:18

       E- even though there are times where people conspire to do things.

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard27:21

       That's right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:22

       I mean, that's why-

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard27:23

       That's right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan27:23

       ... that word exists.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard27:24

       Right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:24

       I mean, it's not like people don't make plans to do things that are illegal.

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard27:28

       Yeah.
8. 36:25 – 50:58

   Big Tech power and speech control: algorithms, deplatforming, privacy, and antitrust

   1. JRJoe Rogan36:25

      Now, one thing that exists now that really didn't exist when Obama was running for president is the impact of social media.

   2. TGTulsi Gabbard36:31

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:31

      It's just tenfold what it used to be. But with that also comes this reality that we're living in right now where there's only a few companies that are controlling the discourse in this country.

   4. TGTulsi Gabbard36:43

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:43

      I mean, you really have ... Essentially have Facebook, Google, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook owns Instagram.

   6. TGTulsi Gabbard36:50

      That's right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:51

      And there's, you know, a couple other small ones, but that, that's the bulk of our discourse.

   8. TGTulsi Gabbard36:55

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:57

      What concern do you have about these private companies controlling the vast majority of communication between people on social media?

   10. TGTulsi Gabbard37:07

       Yeah. It's extremely dangerous. It's extremely dangerous when you think about it. And there's a few things. There's, gosh, with, with Facebook, uh, and Google for that matter, you know, they, they can set their algorithms, uh, Mark Zuckerberg with Facebook, can set his algorithm to control what information is coming across our newsfeed in Facebook-

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TGTulsi Gabbard37:28

       ... what are the stories that we're seeing. Instagram, same thing. Uh, with Google, they can control when you punch in something, what are the first stories that you're gonna see, uh, on the first page that pops up. Uh, when you think about that kind of power, uh, of influence that it has on the American people, literally being held within the hands of a couple of people unchecked and without oversight or transparency, it's incredibly dangerous. Let's talk about free speech. There's just been news recently about Facebook banning certain individuals, uh, from having Facebook accounts because of their speech. They disagree with the speech that they're, they're using or the things that they're talking about, the ideas that they're pushing forward, unchecked. First Amendment rights going completely out the window, and once again-

   13. JRJoe Rogan38:18

       The argument is they don't apply because it's a private company, right?

   14. TGTulsi Gabbard38:22

       Yes, but they're trying to get the best of both worlds. Um, the fact that, that, you know, they're claiming to say, "Hey, this is a free space for open communication for everyone-"

   15. JRJoe Rogan38:34

       Right.

   16. TGTulsi Gabbard38:35

       ... while at the same time going and saying, "Actually, you know what, Joe, I don't like what you're saying about this, so we're gonna ban you and whoever your friends are from, from this conversation." Um, I think that's, that's a big problem. It undermines, it undermines our First Amendment rights.

   17. JRJoe Rogan38:51

       Well, do you-

   18. TGTulsi Gabbard38:51

       And then you look at privacy, the privacy concerns of all the information that they're collecting in Facebook from us, all the information that they're collecting from us, uh, with Google, and how they're monetizing that and selling or sharing that information with other people with, really, without our, our knowledge or agreement.

   19. JRJoe Rogan39:10

       That's the part, right, the, the agreement, that most people didn't understand that your data is a huge commodity.

   20. TGTulsi Gabbard39:17

       That's right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan39:17

       And we signed up for these things, and who, who reads terms of service agreements?

   22. TGTulsi Gabbard39:21

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan39:21

       Have you ever read one?

   24. TGTulsi Gabbard39:22

       Yeah. No.

   25. JRJoe Rogan39:22

       I've never read one of them. I just say, "Okay, all right."

   26. TGTulsi Gabbard39:25

       Yeah. I start, I get through, like, the first two-

   27. JRJoe Rogan39:26

       Yeah.

   28. TGTulsi Gabbard39:26

       ... paragraphs, like, "Okay."

   29. JRJoe Rogan39:27

       Then I hope it's not ugly-

   30. TGTulsi Gabbard39:28

       Yeah.
9. 50:58 – 1:02:14

   Hyper-partisanship in Congress: how the system trains division—and how to break it

   1. TGTulsi Gabbard50:58

      That's right. That's right. And that's, that is where this path ends up, this path that we're on of this, this hyper-partisanship-

   2. JRJoe Rogan51:06

      Yes.

   3. TGTulsi Gabbard51:06

      ... this extreme divisiveness where it's either you're in my tribe or you're in the other tribe, and the arrows are pointed at each other without any willingness to, once again, just, let's just have a conversation. Let me hear where you're coming from, hear where I'm coming from. We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can even have a heated conversation and a debate.

   4. JRJoe Rogan51:24

      And I would say that-

   5. TGTulsi Gabbard51:25

      But at the end of it-

   6. JRJoe Rogan51:25

      ... what you're saying is patriotic.

   7. TGTulsi Gabbard51:27

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan51:27

      This is patriotic.

   9. TGTulsi Gabbard51:28

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan51:28

       And I think it's unpatriotic to be partisan-

   11. TGTulsi Gabbard51:31

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan51:31

       ... because I think we're supposed to be on a team together.

   13. TGTulsi Gabbard51:33

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan51:34

       We're supposed to be team America, right?

   15. TGTulsi Gabbard51:35

       Exactly. Exactly.

   16. JRJoe Rogan51:36

       What are we doing? We're, we're fighting over nonsense and mis- mischaracterizing people's positions just to suit our own ideas.

   17. TGTulsi Gabbard51:43

       That's right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan51:43

       It's, it's foolish.

   19. TGTulsi Gabbard51:45

       It's, it's foolish. And as you said, it's extremely dangerous and the American people are the ones who, who ultimately lose in all of this. Uh, this has been one of the most frustrating things that I've seen and experienced throughout my over six years in Congress that really started, um, like when I first went up after I got elected, uh, where after every election happens and new members of Congress, they go and, uh, they have what's called new member orientation, and they give you these books and here's the maps and here's where your office is and, you know, all the, all the administrative and logistical stuff. But very quickly, I would say within the first few days, um, you know, where we first come in together as Democrats and Republicans, immediately, okay, Democrats go this way, Republicans go this way, immediately separated. And what we're told right off the bat is, "Look, this is about, uh, getting wins for our political party, and if you work with a Republican, then that's gonna hurt the party, especially if you work with a Republican that the Democratic Party is trying to take out." Forget the substance of the idea, forget the substance of the bill. And this happens on the opposite side as well, Republicans with Democrats. Both, both political parties are diff- are, are, um, guilty of this, where they're really putting the interests of the political party ahead of the people who just voted for us to go and serve them, and not just the Democrats who voted for me, but yes, the r- the Independents and the Republicans, both who voted for me or who didn't, but who, uh, I serve as part of my constituency. And, uh, you just, you, you continue to- I've continued to see this where, you know, you'll have a bill that because it's a Democrat bill, Republicans will vote against it, substance aside.

   20. JRJoe Rogan53:28

       Yeah.

   21. TGTulsi Gabbard53:28

       Or a Republican bill, Democrats will vote against it just because it's a Republican bill. But then, hey, if, if they come in and, you know, a month or a year later introduce the same bill or a similar bill, but now because it's a Democratic bill, "Okay, everybody, hey, let's go, let's go and support this legislation." You can, you can imagine why there is so much gridlock in Washington, why nothing really gets done, and ultimately how this divisiveness and this hyper-partisanship is hurting the ability for the needs of the American people to be served.

   22. JRJoe Rogan54:02

       When you talk about people like yourself that are completely funded by the public-

   23. TGTulsi Gabbard54:07

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan54:08

       ... and you have this very logical and objective way of discussing this gridlock, do you think that the future is in young people like yourself getting involved in politics, that they, they're not connected to this old world for 35, 45 years?

   25. TGTulsi Gabbard54:25

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan54:25

       This world, it sounds like this is just what you do.

   27. TGTulsi Gabbard54:28

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan54:28

       I mean, I watched House of Cards.

   29. TGTulsi Gabbard54:29

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan54:30

       I get kinda-
10. 1:02:14 – 1:40:28

    Domestic reinvestment: Afghanistan costs, Flint, living wages, housing, and UBI

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:14

       If you d- become president ... Or sh- excuse me. When you become president.

    2. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:17

       There you go.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:18

       Sorry. And you do get to change the way we spend money-

    4. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:25

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:02:25

       ... and stop spending money on these regime change wars, what would be the first thing you invested in in this country?

    6. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:30

       Hmm. That's a-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:31

       And how would you go about doing that?

    8. TGTulsi Gabbard1:02:32

       That's a good question. I think there's, um ... I'd wanna give that some thought, because there are a whole host of, of challenges that we're facing. You know, I mean, healthcare is, is among the top of the list, and, you know, we've talked a little bit about that the last time I was here. Our crumbling infrastructure continues to be something that's not only just uncomfortable every time we're driving over potholes, it's actually, uh, threatening people's lives and well-beings. Uh, I was in Iowa a few weeks ago, and we visited this ... a few communities that were completely inundated and devastated by the flooding, um, that took place there, gosh, about three, three or four weeks ago now. Uh, many of them have not been able to return to their homes. We went and helped out one family. We were tearing down drywall and ripping up the floors, and underneath the wood and the floors, there was still, like, tons of water, uh, in place. And they were talking about how even with, you know, the aid from FEMA and s- and SBA loans, that they, they are unwilling to put a single dollar back into rebuilding their homes, because they're hearing from the government and the Army Corps of Engineers that it may take two to four years to fix the levees that broke down and caused that flooding. So, why would they go and try to pour their life savings back into rebuilding their homes when they could get flooded again in a year or in two years? Because we're not making the kinds of investments in our infrastructure that we need to make. Uh, so there's, you know, education. I mean, there's a whole host of issues, um, that I think we need to look at how we can best provide the resources that are necessary to improve those services, uh, to the American people, and also look at how, how we're doing business and, and fixing the problems that exist within those different agencies.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:04:23

       W- there's always been a call to help countries in need in the world.

    10. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:28

        Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:28

        There's always been a call for the United States to step in and, you know, and, and, and do something. But yet, there's problems in this country-

    12. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:37

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:37

        ... that are ... that never change.

    14. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:39

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:39

        There's bad communities in this country that are impoverished and crime-ridden that have been the same way-

    16. TGTulsi Gabbard1:04:45

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:45

        ... for decades. There was a former Baltimore police officer named Michael Wood who came on my podcast, and he was talking to me about the time when he was in the Baltimore Police Department. They found a piece of paper that was documenting various crimes from the 1970s for some one i- one of the years, from 1970-something. And it was the same exact crime in the same exact area that they were having problems with now.

    18. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:11

        Gosh.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:11

        Whether it's homicide, uh, narcotics, whatever it was, they were having the exact same issue in the exact same places. And then he realized, like, "Well this is ... there's no effort put to change this."

    20. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:22

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:22

        There's no ... Uh, there's i- i- if you're talking about decades and decades and decades, why wasn't there, uh, money funneled into this community?

    22. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:30

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:30

        Why isn't there some community centers that help children? Why isn't there an emphasis on better d- better education?

    24. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:37

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

        Why isn't there more police officers or at least, uh, some sort of civilian presence-

    26. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:43

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:43

        ... that helps out people and stops some of this crime and gives people a better place to live and then fix a lot of this ... what you're seeing decade after decade?

    28. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:53

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:54

        If we wanna make America better, the best way to do that is to fix the weakest parts.

    30. TGTulsi Gabbard1:05:58

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:34:47