Joe Rogan Experience #1295 - Tulsi Gabbard

Joe Rogan 0:00 Three, two, one. And we're back. What's up? How are you?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:04 We're back.

Joe Rogan 0:04 Good to see you.

Tulsi Gabbard 0:05 Hello. I'm good.

Joe Rogan 0:05 So-

Tulsi Gabbard 0:05 Nice to be back here.

Joe Rogan 0:07 ... when you first came here, you were thinking about running for president.

Tulsi Gabbard 0:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Now, you're out there.

Tulsi Gabbard 0:11 We're all in.

Joe Rogan 0:11 It's happening.

Tulsi Gabbard 0:12 Yes.

Joe Rogan 0:12 Are you nervous?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:13 No.

Joe Rogan 0:13 Is it weird?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:14 No.

Joe Rogan 0:15 No?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:15 Not at all.

Joe Rogan 0:15 None of it? Well, do you feel like this is like destiny?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:18 No, um-

Joe Rogan 0:19 So how does it not feel weird?

Tulsi Gabbard 0:20 I'm on a mission.

Joe Rogan 0:21 Oh.

Tulsi Gabbard 0:21 I'm on a mission. Uh, you know, there, there's a lot of issues I think we're gonna talk about about why I'm running for president, uh, but being out and connecting with people all across this country, bringing this message, um, really of, of ending these wasteful destructive, uh, foreign policies that have been so costly on the American people for so long, costly on our troops, costly on our veterans, ending these wasteful regime change wars, ending this new Cold War and nuclear arms race, and taking the trillions of dollars that we've been spending on these programs and, and that we will continue to spend if the status quo is allowed to continue, and investing those dollars back into serving the people in our communities, serving the people of this country, things like healthcare, education, infrastructure, uh, protecting our environment, clean water. There's so much that we need to do. We've got limited resources to accomplish that.

Joe Rogan 1:16 These are my favorite things that you talk about. Um, my question is always, though, why do we spend so much time and money and at, at such a titanic human cost-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:29 ... for these regi- regime ch- change wars?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:31 What do you think is the cause? Like other than the obvious l- if, if we, you have a dictator that's in place, there's an obvious outcry like Saddam Hussein post 9/11.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:41 Other than that, what i- what is the reason why we invest so much time and energy into regime change war-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:49 ... so much so that we've just accepted that this is a part of our gross economy? Like, if we're gonna take all the money that the United States earns and all the money that goes to taxes, we just automatically-

Tulsi Gabbard 2:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:01 ... put a gigantic chunk of that into investing in these wars in other countries.

Tulsi Gabbard 2:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07 Why-

Tulsi Gabbard 2:07 Blindly.

Joe Rogan 2:08 Why is that?

Tulsi Gabbard 2:08 Blindly, almost, without any kind of, um-

Joe Rogan 2:10 It's a tradition.

Tulsi Gabbard 2:11 ... real accountability. Uh, $6 to $8 trillion is what's estimated that's been spent since 9/11 alone on these regime change wars, without even taking into account, uh, what the cost will continue to be to take care of our veterans, those who have gone and, and fought in these wars and have come home dealing with, you know, visible and invisible wounds that, that they'll have to live with for, for the rest of their lives. Let's start back. You mentioned Saddam Hussein. Uh, I don't think it was necessarily an obvious outcry. Saddam Hussein, uh, and the toppling of his regime was done for oil, right?

Joe Rogan 2:50 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 2:50 It was done for financial reasons. And the architects of that Iraq war, uh, sold it in the guise of, "Hey, Saddam Hussein is working with Al-Qaeda, those terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, and he's gonna give them his weapons of mass destruction," both of which turned out to be false, false intelligence and lies that were sold to the American people, sold to soldiers, people like me, uh, who, who believed what they said. You know, I enlisted after 9/11, like so many people in this country, to go after the terrorists who had attacked us on that day, killing thousands of Americans. And they sold this lie, uh, for financial gain, for oil. You, you look at some of the architects of that Iraq war, guys like John Bolton, who today is President Trump's National Security, uh, Council Director, and you look at what's happening in Venezuela, almost the very same playbook being used, where they're selling this, this regime change effort, uh, threatening to use US military force to go in and topple a regime under the guise of humanitarianism when in fact, and Bolton has said this on national television, that, well, we really want to make sure that American oil companies are able to go in and access that oil-rich country in Venezuela.

Joe Rogan 4:06 So you think that's why there's so much turmoil in that country right now, th- this is, this battle over regime change because the fact they wanna control the oil?

Tulsi Gabbard 4:15 I think the, the US coming in and trying to insert itself into what is happening in Venezuela is what, is what is the problem. So they're doing that through, uh, very, very heavy sanctions, uh, they're doing that through various means and threatening to use our military to go in and topple the regime there rather than taking the approach that I would take as president, which is to recognize that the people of Venezuela, like people in other countries in the world, need to be the ones to determine their governance and their future. Just like we wouldn't want any other country to come in and threaten to use their military to topple our government or to tell us who should or shouldn't be the leaders in our country, we shouldn't be doing that in their country. There are, uh, serious issues that are causing a lot of suffering for the Venezuelan people. If we really want to be helpful, we should be a force to help move towards reconciliation and peace rather than what this administration is doing, which is, uh, throwing fuel on the flames of a civil war that'll be devastating, devastating.

Joe Rogan 5:23 When you say move towards reconciliation and peace-

Tulsi Gabbard 5:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:25 ... how so?

Tulsi Gabbard 5:26 Well, you see there's differences, right? There's the people who are with the current government in Venezuela, and there is the opposition. Clearly, they have differences on what kind of future, what kind of governance, and who should lead that government, uh, going forward. Rather than threatening to use the United States, United States coming in and trying to act once again as the world's police, uh, which by the way throughout history has not had good results, not for the people in those countries, what to speak of the cost that, uh, we the American people pay, rather than saying, "Hey, let's, let's work towards peace, try to push for diplomacy and find what are the conditions that would make some form of reconciliation-"

Joe Rogan 6:08 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 6:08 ... uh, going forward.

Joe Rogan 6:10 Is there an argument, and I'm, I really don't know the, uh, the answer to this. But is there an argument that these regime change wars, although terrible, we would be way worse off if those weren't in place?

Tulsi Gabbard 6:21 I think that's an argument that proponents for regime change wars try to make but history shows and proves that the very opposite is true. Uh, look at Iraq, you can look at Libya, you can look at Syria, you can look at Guatemala and Ecuador, you can look at other countries, uh, Iran, where in the past we have either overtly or covertly through the CIA gone in and toppled, uh, leaders of countries or dictators or regimes. And the result has been more suffering for the people in those countries. Their lives have been made worse off, not only in the short-term but in the long-term, and the cost once again to the American people has also taken a toll as we see more and more of our hard-earned taxpayer dollars going to pay for these wars, uh, these regime change efforts that are counter to our national security interests, counter to the interests of the American people, and counter to the interests of the people in those countries.

Joe Rogan 7:17 So, is this one of those things that's just a counterintuitive thing, where you would think that getting rid of someone like Gaddafi would be a good idea? He's a terrible, evil person. But they get rid of him and now Libya's a failed state.

Tulsi Gabbard 7:31 It's, it's horrible what is happening in Libya as a result of that. As you said-

Joe Rogan 7:35 I mean, you can watch slave auctions on YouTube.

Tulsi Gabbard 7:37 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 7:37 It's insane.

Tulsi Gabbard 7:38 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 7:39 It's, it's hard to imagine that an era of YouTube and slave auctions exist in a place that, you know, at least some part of the blame has to be on us supporting the rebels that went in and took out Gaddafi. Like, it's not good to have ... See, it's one of those counterintuitive things, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 7:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:55 Where it's not good to have an evil person in control of a country-

Tulsi Gabbard 7:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:58 ... but it's also not good to kill them.

Tulsi Gabbard 8:00 I think it's, it's, it-

Joe Rogan 8:00 We get rid of them and then this power vacuum, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 8:03 Yeah. It's that, um, it, it, it's, it's hard to accept sometimes the reality that there are bad people in the world. There are leaders of countries who are doing bad things against their people. What the real question is, is we recognize this is the world that exists in reality, not the world that we wish, uh, existed. And then the question is for the leaders of our country is, what role should the United States play? Does it make sense to try to act as the world's police, as we have been for far too long? Both as we look at what is in the best interests of the American people, what's in the best interests of our national security, as well as, uh, what impact will our actions have on the people in these countries? And with Libya, not only do we see strengthened terrorist groups, there are terrorist groups all over Libya now. A failed state, the Libyan people are suffering, uh, now far more than they were before, but we see the ramifications of that in countries like North Korea. Where, again, John Bolton and the Trump administration is talking about using the Libya model with North Korea as we work towards this objective of denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula. Uh, one of the leaders in the North Korean government just said the other day, "The United States government is talking about using the Libya model with North Korea to get them to get rid of their nuclear weapons. They don't want to end up like Libya or Iraq." Where in Libya, as you remember, the United States went in and told Gaddafi, "Hey, get rid of your nuclear weapons program and we're not gonna come after you." And he did, he got rid of it. And what happened a very short time later, the United States and other countries went in and took him out. So, that action and that decision and that policy is directly undermining our national security and our efforts to make us and the world more safe to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula.

Joe Rogan 10:01 So, would the argument for regime change wars being that ... Would it be that if we didn't go over there and if we didn't have a military presence, and we didn't make them fight against us, that they would somehow or another gain more power and they would, we would deal with this evil superpower? Is this, is this like the worst case scenario for the pro-interventionalist foreign policy?

Tulsi Gabbard 10:24 It's, I, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even go that far. I mean, the, the argument that's made by people who are advocating for these regime change wars is we've got to do something to help people who are suffering. That's generally the argument-

Joe Rogan 10:38 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 10:38 ... that's made. Uh, and they sell this to the American people knowing that, "Hey, we, uh, we have, we have good hearts and we want to help people if we can." But what they fail to do is to tell the truth-

Joe Rogan 10:51 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 10:52 ... and be honest about what they are hiding behind this guise of humanitarianism.

Joe Rogan 10:57 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 10:58 I mean, if you look at Saudi Arabia, for example, and you look at the kinds of atrocities that that theocratic dictatorship, uh, is conducting against its own people, decapitating LGBTQ people, persecuting religious minorities, uh, being the biggest propagator of this, this most extreme intolerant ideology of Islam that is fueling terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, waging a genocidal war in Yemen, killing tens of thousands of people. Uh, you know, that murder of the journalist in Turkey, the list goes on and on and on. Yet, what are we hearing from leaders in our government? Both Democrats and Republicans. "Saudi Arabia is a great ally of the United States." But then you look at what's happening in Venezuela. Ready to launch our military to go in and take out another dictator, ready to go in and launch our military, ready, uh, to go and wage a war against Iran. So this is, this is evidence of the hypocrisy that exists between those who are waging regime change war in some countries, by the way, usually countries that don't have nuclear weapons, and usually countries where they have some other underlying interests and ulterior motive which is not helping the people of those countries. And then when it's convenient for them, countries like Saudi Arabia sidling up to a country whose leadership directly and indirectly (laughs) supports Al-Qaeda, the very terrorists who attacked us on 9/11, who we are trying to defeat.

Joe Rogan 12:28 Your position on Syria is one that I think people have misconstrued. Why, why don't you tell me how-

Tulsi Gabbard 12:34 That's putting it nicely. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:35 That's, yeah, is trying to put it as nicely as possible.

Tulsi Gabbard 12:37 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:37 They've actually said that you are a, an Assad supporter. I know that's not correct.

Tulsi Gabbard 12:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:43 But is that one of those things where people just say that in order to sort of diffuse you, to, to categorize you as a ridiculous person right off the bat where no one can take anything else you say seriously?

Tulsi Gabbard 12:52 Yeah. It's, it's the usual tactic of, uh, trying to smear or vilify me and my campaign and, and what I'm advocating for, uh, because they don't want to engage on the actual issue itself that I'm pointing out about how devastating and costly their policies are of continuing to wage these wasteful regime change wars, of choosing to support terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda in Syria, directly in Syria because they are the most powerful force on the ground who's fighting to take out the regime, Assad's government. So they're so focused on toppling this government in Syria that they're willing to actually use taxpayer dollars to provide direct and indirect support to Al-Qaeda terrorists in Syria. When you think about how crazy this is, uh, it, uh, it, it makes me angry. I think it makes most people angry. It's why I introduced legislation called the Stop Arming Terrorists Act. Why we would need to have such legislation is beyond me, but, uh, clearly we do to make it so that we don't have any taxpayer dollars going directly to provide any kind of arms or support or, or anything to terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda. But also to make it so that we are not providing support indirectly through countries like Saudi Arabia who are providing that support, uh, to terrorist groups.

Joe Rogan 14:16 So what, what has been said of you about Assad and your, your position on Assad that's just been an outright lie?

Tulsi Gabbard 14:25 Uh, virtually everything. I mean, I'll just tell you what happened. I went to Syria, uh, to, to meet with Syrian people, to hear for myself from them about what was happening there. Uh, while there, I was offered the invitation to meet with the President of Syria, and I took it because I think it's important for us to have the courage to meet with leaders, whether they be friends or adversaries or potential adversaries if our focus is on national security and on peace. So I went, and I had that meeting. And I asked some tough questions and, uh, heard from him his perspective on what was happening and what he was, uh, doing in his country and took the opportunity while there to meet with religious leaders, college students, members of the political opposition, small business owners, um, you know, women who were working to, to start their own business to empower other women, Shia, Sunnis, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, people of all different religions. Uh, it is because of that and that meeting and my staunch opposition to regime change wars in Syria and in other countries that political opponents and others have chosen to try to smear me, my reputation, and my campaign, uh, and to label me as you said, "You know, she's a supporter of this dictator." Well, if that's true, then anyone who opposed the Iraq war is a Saddam Hussein lover, is a lover of dictators and loves Saddam Hussein. So if you challenge (laughs) their logic, you see how shallow it is and there's really none there and, and what's exposed is, um, their refusal to engage on the facts and to stand behind why they continue to put the American people through these costly regime change wars and why they continue to wage these wars that are causing incredible suffering for people in different parts of the world.

Joe Rogan 16:28 It al- it also, when you're having these conversations which are incredibly m- incredibly important globally, when you choose to distort people's positions like this, you're not helping anybody.

Tulsi Gabbard 16:38 No.

Joe Rogan 16:38 You, you're making the whole thing more confusing.

Tulsi Gabbard 16:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:41 So for someone like me who's on the outside, (coughs) excuse me, and then has to watch all this go down, I, I have to go, well, why, why w- why do you have reasonable people that make inaccurate statements about someone because they feel like if you do not, i- if you don't refuse a meeting with Assad, there's something wrong with you, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 17:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:00 Like, d- to not want to be in the presence of this person-

Tulsi Gabbard 17:04 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, um, there's so much hypocrisy around this. You know, a lot of these people are the same people who applauded President Obama when he first ran for president in 2008 when he, I mean, he did, he caused some controversy at that time saying, yes, he would meet with the leader of Iran without pre-conditions, that he would meet with leaders of other countries in that pursuit of national security and peace.

Joe Rogan 17:30 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 17:31 So why the double standard here that, okay, so in order to keep our country safe, in order to achieve peace, we're only gonna meet with our friends and people who we agree with. That's not how you accomplish that mission. That's not how you accomplish security and peace. It doesn't make sense.

Joe Rogan 17:48 No, it's like a social media version of running the world.

Tulsi Gabbard 17:50 Yeah. (laughs) Sadly.

Joe Rogan 17:52 Sadly. Now, had you ever met anyone like Assad before?

Tulsi Gabbard 17:56 Um, no.

Joe Rogan 17:57 What was that like?

Tulsi Gabbard 17:58 No. Uh, he was eager to meet. He was eager to be heard, frankly.

Joe Rogan 18:03 Does he speak English?

Tulsi Gabbard 18:04 Very well.

Joe Rogan 18:05 Really?

Tulsi Gabbard 18:05 Yeah. I think he was educated in Europe. Um, a dentist if I'm not mistaken. Uh, is in, in the med- maybe he's an eye doctor. He's n- in the medical field.

Joe Rogan 18:14 Hm.

Tulsi Gabbard 18:15 Um, and he was, you know, he was open to, to any and all questions that I had both about what was happening, uh, in Syria, uh, you know, Syria's relationship or the lack thereof with Israel.... a lot of the, um, turmoil that we're seeing in different parts of the Middle East of, of Sunni versus Shia, um, you know, chemical weapons being used, uh, you know, criminal acts being conducted, a whole host of these issues, how did, how, how, uh, the Syrian government is dealing with the, the Kurdish population in the northern part of the country, uh, what's going on in Turkey. There was, there was a number of things that, uh, you know, I, I asked and he answered and, and he shared his view and perspective. And, and really what, what came out of that was he's, um, he's very narrowly focused on his country and doesn't want other countries or other people coming in and, and, uh, meddling in their country and what's, what, what they're trying to accomplish, which is actually the same thing that I heard from his political opposition-

Joe Rogan 19:22 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 19:22 ... when I met with them. These are some of the leaders who, who led the protests that, um, that kind of began this whole conflict in 2011, people who are deeply opposed to the Syrian government, some of whom have been held in captivity by the Syrian government. And they said, "There are constitutional changes we want to make. Yes, we would like to see Assad removed from government." That they don't want to see it done through military means or through other countries coming in and toppling their government. What they want to see is that change coming from the people of Syria saying, "Hey, this is the kind of leadership that we want for our future."

Joe Rogan 20:04 I can imagine there's not a single country on Earth that wants us to invade and take over. I mean, it just seems like a bad-

Tulsi Gabbard 20:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:10 ... idea for everybody.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:11 Right. Nor, nor would we want that-

Joe Rogan 20:13 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:13 ... to happen to us.

Joe Rogan 20:14 Exactly.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:14 I think that's really what's missing here is, you know, for so long we've seen this imperialistic mentality, um, that still exists in our government, where some feel like, hey, well, we should go and tell this country who should lead their government and tell them what kind of policies they should have, but no other country should dare even attempt to do that to ours.

Joe Rogan 20:37 Yeah, well, our position is that we're the best and we're, we're running this country the best way.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:41 And this is the best country that's ever existed, ever, has the most freedoms, it's got the most chaos, it's got a lot of things going on that's not... that are not good, but overall-

Tulsi Gabbard 20:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:52 ... we, we feel like we're the shining light of the world.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:55 Maybe that's not accurate, you know?

Tulsi Gabbard 20:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:56 But maybe it's accurate in a lot of ways.

Tulsi Gabbard 20:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:59 And, uh-

Tulsi Gabbard 20:59 I think the problem, the problems begin when we go into other countries-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 21:03 ... and try to create little mini-Americas-

Joe Rogan 21:06 Exactly.

Tulsi Gabbard 21:06 ... and impose it on the people there, whether they like it or not, whether they're ready for it or not, uh, and, and we end up seeing what we're seeing across the Middle East, if-

Joe Rogan 21:16 Yeah, I think we just look at the rest of the world and go, "Well, I wouldn't tolerate that."

Tulsi Gabbard 21:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:19 "Why are they tolerating that?"

Tulsi Gabbard 21:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:20 "Who is that guy?"

Tulsi Gabbard 21:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:21 "Why, why does he get to run things?"

Tulsi Gabbard 21:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:22 "They should kick his ass." That's literally the American-

Tulsi Gabbard 21:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:25 ... perspective.

Tulsi Gabbard 21:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:26 But, you know, we don't want to send our sons and daughters over there to go do that for the... Do, now, if I put my tinfoil hat on-

Tulsi Gabbard 21:33 We don't.

Joe Rogan 21:34 ... we don't-

Tulsi Gabbard 21:34 We don't. We, the American people, don't.

Joe Rogan 21:36 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 21:36 But this is the problem, and this is, this is something that I realized very quickly during my first deployment to Iraq where I was seeing firsthand the cost of war, serving in that medical unit every single day. And I, I wondered how many politicians in Washington who voted for or advocated for or championed that war in Iraq were laying away at night... awake at night thinking about my brothers and sisters who were getting killed in combat, who were getting severely wounded, who were getting blown up by IEDs. And I, I, I, I learned very quickly, uh, that they were not.

Joe Rogan 22:13 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 22:13 They weren't thinking about the real cost and the ramifications and the consequences of their decisions.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Jamie, who were we talking with the other day we were trying to say that we think that if you want to be the commander in chief, that you should probably have served? Who was that? It was a recent podcast. CT Fletcher, yes, I believe that it was him, yeah, who is a veteran as well.

Tulsi Gabbard 22:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:34 Um, that's one thing that you have over them, for sure, is that you understand from firsthand experience and sacrifice what it means to actually be in war and then to be in combat.

Tulsi Gabbard 22:45 Yeah, yeah. I mean, over... I, I still serve in the Army National Guard now, over, over 16 years. Uh, I've deployed twice to the Middle East. And, uh, coupled with my experience in, in Congress, serving over six years on the Foreign Affairs and the Armed Services Committees, working intimately on these issues related to national security and our foreign policy, meeting with leaders of different countries in the world. Uh, it is these experiences and the understanding that I've gained from them that best equip me to walk in the door, walk into the Oval Office on day one, ready to do the job of president, and most importantly, commander in chief.

Joe Rogan 23:24 What hurdles are you encountering that you didn't expect?

Tulsi Gabbard 23:31 Uh, you know, a lot of what's happening are things that, that, that we kind of did expect, you know? The, the smear campaigns-

Joe Rogan 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 23:40 ... the, the misinformation campaigns. Um-

Joe Rogan 23:43 Do you think that's, that someone's doing this on purpose or do you think this is team mentality in action, where people are supporting a particular candidate and they look at you as being competition of that candidate? Like, what do you think is happening?

Tulsi Gabbard 23:54 I think it's probably a combination. Um, you know, I'm, I'm challenging the establishment, challenging the status quo, challenging the foreign policy establishment, uh, and challenging the political establishment in calling things as I see them, calling it straight, and, and speaking the truth, whether that be calling out leaders within my own party or leaders of the other political party. And, um, you know, I think that, that strikes fear in a lot of people who are uncomfortable with it, at a minimum, and who are concerned because when, you know, we the people rise up and say, "Hey, what's really going on here?" We're, we're calling out self-serving politicians in Washington from both political parties who are putting their own political interests-... or the interests of their party ahead of the interests of the people. Or they're putting the interests of, you know, whatever greedy corporation and their lobbyist is writing the biggest checks to their campaigns ahead of the interests of the people. So the more this awareness comes out, the more people stand up and speak out and say, "Hey, this is unacceptable. This is unacceptable." Then it's threatening that very power base that they, um, have, have thrived and, and lived off of for far too long.

Joe Rogan 25:09 We should talk about how you're funded too-

Tulsi Gabbard 25:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:10 ... just so people understand your position.

Tulsi Gabbard 25:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:13 So pl-

Tulsi Gabbard 25:13 People-powered campaign.

Joe Rogan 25:14 100%.

Tulsi Gabbard 25:14 We take no, no PAC contributions, no lobbyist contributions. Every single dollar that comes to my campaign for president is coming from individual people across this country, whether it's a dollar or a thousand dollars, people who are giving whatever they can, uh, and joining this movement.

Joe Rogan 25:33 There's a great joke. I've, I think it's from Dennis Miller. I hope I'm not misquoting it. But it's he was talking about how politicians wear patches on their jackets like NASCAR drivers.

Tulsi Gabbard 25:42 Seriously.

Joe Rogan 25:43 (laughs)

Tulsi Gabbard 25:43 That is. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:44 (laughs) Like, like you should have to know.

Tulsi Gabbard 25:45 Seriously.

Joe Rogan 25:46 Yeah. P- ... Someone should have to know.

Tulsi Gabbard 25:47 Have those disclaimers there.

Joe Rogan 25:49 I ... W- what ... If I put my tinfoil hat on, when I talk about these interventionist f- foreign policy wars and, and regime change wars, the, the tinfoil hat thinks military-industrial complex.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:01 People being asked or forced into making decisions that benefit these giant corporations that makes w- make weapons and profit off of war.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:11 This is the worst case scenario in t- in terms of conspiracy theories, the idea that someone wants war so that they can make money and they don't care if people die, even needlessly. This is our number one conspiracy fear, right? If you had to think about of all the things that you hope are not true about the way the world works-

Tulsi Gabbard 26:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:29 ... that would probably be number one.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:30 Well, you can take your tinfoil hat off, because the military-industrial complex is a real thing. This is something that, um, President Eisenhower talked about.

Joe Rogan 26:42 Which is an amazing speech.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:43 Amazing speech. His, his last speech-

Joe Rogan 26:46 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:46 ... as president of the United States. Of all the things that he could talk about, he chose to focus on the military-industrial complex-

Joe Rogan 26:53 Should we play that right now?

Tulsi Gabbard 26:53 ... and how dangerous it is.

Joe Rogan 26:55 I feel like we should play that.

Tulsi Gabbard 26:56 Yes. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 26:57 Just 'cause it's, it's so-

Tulsi Gabbard 26:57 Play that clip.

Joe Rogan 26:58 It's so crazy and most people have never heard it before. And you hear about the term military-industrial complex, and one thing that has been done that's, uh, really interesting is the word conspiracy has become a dirty word.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:10 And that dirty word, uh, or a, a word that's ... it, it's, it's easy to make something silly by calling it a conspiracy.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:18 E- even though there are times where people conspire to do things.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:21 That's right.

Joe Rogan 27:22 I mean, that's why-

Tulsi Gabbard 27:23 That's right.

Joe Rogan 27:23 ... that word exists.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:24 I mean, it's not like people don't make plans to do things that are illegal.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:28 Of course they do. That's why the FBI's around and-

Tulsi Gabbard 27:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:31 But this is from the National Archives, and this was Eisenhower's speech as he was leaving office.

Narrator 27:37 I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell.

Joe Rogan 27:40 1961. This speech did not get very much attention. When a new pres- Oh, who is this guy? Sorry. Jamie, you picked up the wrong version. Son of a bitch. I'm sure there's a, an actual version of it.

Tulsi Gabbard 27:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:50 Here we go. Ju- uh, January 17th, 1961, back when everything was black and white.

Narrator 27:55 Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States. Good evening, my fellow Americans. We now stand 10 years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations.

Joe Rogan 28:10 (laughs) This is a bad one too, Jamie. (laughs) You son of a bitch.

Tulsi Gabbard 28:12 While h- while he's looking for the right clip, what, what most people don't know-

Joe Rogan 28:14 I think he's just gonna play music in the background. That's all it's gonna do.

Tulsi Gabbard 28:18 What most people don't know is that his, his first draft of that speech said, "Congressional military-industrial complex."

Joe Rogan 28:29 Whoa.

Tulsi Gabbard 28:30 And somewhere between the draft and the speech that was delivered, he took out that word congressional. But he was directly connecting those dots.

Joe Rogan 28:40 Whoa.

Tulsi Gabbard 28:40 That some may say, "Oh, well, that's just a conspiracy theory," but he was connecting those dots with the influence that the military-industrial complex has on leaders in Congress who are making decisions about how our money is spent and where our troops are sent off into battle.

Joe Rogan 28:55 Congressional. Congressional military-industrial complex. Wow. I need extra foil.

Tulsi Gabbard 29:02 (laughs) Get you a new box.

Narrator 29:05 Eisenhower's final speech.

Joe Rogan 29:06 It's crazy how they couldn't keep the camera steady back then either. I don't think so either. (laughs) I think it's someone else's voice. I think it's ... Here it goes.

Narrator 29:13 Good evening, my fellow Americans.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Just skip ahead a couple seconds here. Here it goes.

Narrator 29:15 A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction. Our military organization today bears little relation to that known of any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed, by the fighting men of World War II or Korea. Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, 3.5 million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporation- corporations. Now, this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence, economic, political, even spiritual, is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the federal government.We recognize the imperative need for this development, yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must car- guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.

Joe Rogan 31:29 Okay. We-

Narrator 31:30 We should take nothing for granted.

Joe Rogan 31:31 We ... Y- y- you could listen to the rest of the speech if you want to online, but it's very chilling.

Tulsi Gabbard 31:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:36 'Cause this is the sitting president leaving office, and this is what he wants to tell people.

Tulsi Gabbard 31:40 And a soldier.

Joe Rogan 31:41 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 31:41 He's a guy who had military experience. He's a guy who saw firsthand, wearing the uniform and then serving as Commander in Chief. And this was his final warning to the nation.

Joe Rogan 31:53 Military companies are like most companies. They always wanna grow.

Tulsi Gabbard 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:58 Companies seek infinite growth. They, they constantly seek b- better quarters every year. They wanna make more money than they did last year.

Tulsi Gabbard 32:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:04 That's what they're doing. They're, they're in the business of making money. They're not just in the business of creating things. They, they're creating things for a profit.

Tulsi Gabbard 32:11 That's right.

Joe Rogan 32:12 And they're gonna have a little wiggle room, especially with politicians, with politicians that are in their pocket and they've spent millions of dollars helping them along the way.

Tulsi Gabbard 32:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:21 And, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna help each other.

Tulsi Gabbard 32:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:25 And this long history of helping each other.

Tulsi Gabbard 32:28 That's right. That's, um ... I mean, you, you, you see that very directly through contributions that are being made, uh, to politicians by different defense contractors and the corresponding votes that are then taken. Uh, but you also see this corruption that's happening before our very eyes, uh, happening within places like the Pentagon, where you either have people in uniform or civilians who are working in contracting, for example, in the Pentagon, laying the groundwork for writing up these contracts, major multi-billion dollar contracts with these big defense contractors, and then lay down the uniform or you retire from service, either as a civilian or in the military, and then you turn around, leave that door, and walk into another door working for the very same contractor that you just wrote the contract for.

Joe Rogan 33:20 T- yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 33:22 This is happening. This is what, this is what we need to change when we're talking about both campaign finance reform, but also reforming this kind of corruption and this revolving door that's happening in different parts of our government. You see it happening in Wall Street too.

Joe Rogan 33:37 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 33:37 The SEC regulators, people who are supposed to be regulating Wall Street, are coming from Wall Street and then going back to Wall Street to work for the very same companies that they were supposedly just charged to regulate. This is a big problem that we've gotta fix.

Joe Rogan 33:50 Yeah. There's a fantastic documentary on that, uh, called Inside Job.

Tulsi Gabbard 33:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:54 I don't know if ... Did you see it?

Tulsi Gabbard 33:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:55 It's amazing.

Tulsi Gabbard 33:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:56 Y- you see when he's confronting these guys who are professors, who then go and take these jobs-

Tulsi Gabbard 34:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:02 ... and make millions of dollars with the very regulations that they helped put into place.

Tulsi Gabbard 34:06 That's right. And it's happening with foreign policy-

Joe Rogan 34:08 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 34:08 ... as well. When you look at who, who are the main people who go and testify in front of Congress? Uh, coming from think tanks, very well-known think tanks, uh, global think tanks that specialize in foreign policy, uh, they don't have a placard on, on their desk when they're testifying before Congress saying, "We receive funding from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar"-

Joe Rogan 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 34:28 ... "from the United Arab Emirates, from all these different countries" who are spending a lot of money funding these think tanks that then come forward and, uh, push policies or push ideas to leaders in Congress that not coincidentally benefit the countries that are funding them.

Joe Rogan 34:47 T- what, what could be done to stop that other than someone like you getting into power?

Tulsi Gabbard 34:56 Well-

Joe Rogan 34:56 And what could you do once you get in there?

Tulsi Gabbard 34:58 I think, I think two, two things. I mean, obviously as, as president and Commander in Chief, you set the tone for the kind of leadership that we have in this country that will put service above self. And thi- this is what, what I will bring as president, bring those soldiers' values of putting service above self, putting service to the American people and your country first and foremost, ahead of everything else, ahead of the interests of a political party or corporation or, or a foreign country for that matter, and work to pass legislation in Congress that would close these revolving doors, that would require this, uh, transparency when you're talking about who is funding who and where is this money coming from. I think members of Congress should not be taking PAC contributions, should be relying solely on contributions from people in this country so they know exactly who is funding their campaigns.

Joe Rogan 35:49 That really seems like a no-brainer.

Tulsi Gabbard 35:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:51 That one seems like a no-brainer-

Tulsi Gabbard 35:51 And it's something that-

Joe Rogan 35:52 ... if you really want what the people want.

Tulsi Gabbard 35:54 It's something that, that's starting to happen organically-

Joe Rogan 35:56 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 35:56 ... as more and more people, uh, are calling for this kind of reform and saying, "Hey, look, if you want my vote, then I expect you to not accept those contributions and to run a people-powered campaign."

Joe Rogan 36:10 How many people are doing that besides you?

Tulsi Gabbard 36:12 Uh, there's a couple who are running for president. There's a slowly growing number of people who have run for and got, gotten elected to Congress. Uh, but look, it's, it's, uh, it's in the margins compared to where we need to be.

Joe Rogan 36:25 Now, one thing that exists now that really didn't exist when Obama was running for president is the impact of social media.

Tulsi Gabbard 36:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:31 It's just tenfold what it used to be. But with that also comes this reality that we're living in right now where there's only a few companies that are controlling the discourse in this country.

Tulsi Gabbard 36:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:43 I mean, you really have ... Essentially have Facebook, Google, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook owns Instagram.

Tulsi Gabbard 36:50 That's right.

Joe Rogan 36:51 And there's, you know, a couple other small ones, but that, that's the bulk of our discourse.

Tulsi Gabbard 36:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:57 What concern do you have about these private companies controlling the vast majority of communication between people on social media?

Tulsi Gabbard 37:07 Yeah. It's extremely dangerous. It's extremely dangerous when you think about it. And there's a few things. There's, gosh, with, with Facebook, uh, and Google for that matter, you know, they, they can set their algorithms, uh, Mark Zuckerberg with Facebook, can set his algorithm to control what information is coming across our newsfeed in Facebook-

Joe Rogan 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 37:28 ... what are the stories that we're seeing. Instagram, same thing. Uh, with Google, they can control when you punch in something, what are the first stories that you're gonna see, uh, on the first page that pops up. Uh, when you think about that kind of power, uh, of influence that it has on the American people, literally being held within the hands of a couple of people unchecked and without oversight or transparency, it's incredibly dangerous. Let's talk about free speech. There's just been news recently about Facebook banning certain individuals, uh, from having Facebook accounts because of their speech. They disagree with the speech that they're, they're using or the things that they're talking about, the ideas that they're pushing forward, unchecked. First Amendment rights going completely out the window, and once again-

Joe Rogan 38:18 The argument is they don't apply because it's a private company, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 38:22 Yes, but they're trying to get the best of both worlds. Um, the fact that, that, you know, they're claiming to say, "Hey, this is a free space for open communication for everyone-"

Joe Rogan 38:34 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 38:35 ... while at the same time going and saying, "Actually, you know what, Joe, I don't like what you're saying about this, so we're gonna ban you and whoever your friends are from, from this conversation." Um, I think that's, that's a big problem. It undermines, it undermines our First Amendment rights.

Joe Rogan 38:51 Well, do you-

Tulsi Gabbard 38:51 And then you look at privacy, the privacy concerns of all the information that they're collecting in Facebook from us, all the information that they're collecting from us, uh, with Google, and how they're monetizing that and selling or sharing that information with other people with, really, without our, our knowledge or agreement.

Joe Rogan 39:10 That's the part, right, the, the agreement, that most people didn't understand that your data is a huge commodity.

Tulsi Gabbard 39:17 That's right.

Joe Rogan 39:17 And we signed up for these things, and who, who reads terms of service agreements?

Tulsi Gabbard 39:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:21 Have you ever read one?

Tulsi Gabbard 39:22 Yeah. No.

Joe Rogan 39:22 I've never read one of them. I just say, "Okay, all right."

Tulsi Gabbard 39:25 Yeah. I start, I get through, like, the first two-

Joe Rogan 39:26 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 39:26 ... paragraphs, like, "Okay."

Joe Rogan 39:27 Then I hope it's not ugly-

Tulsi Gabbard 39:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:28 ... hope it's nothing terrible in there.

Tulsi Gabbard 39:30 You know what I think back to? There is a, a South Park episode (laughs) that, that is specifically about the terms and conditions. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:38 (laughs)

Tulsi Gabbard 39:38 And, uh, I just, I watched it a long time ago, but every time I see one of those things pop up, sign the terms, things, I'm like, "Oh, man." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:46 Yeah. That was Cartman, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 39:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:48 Yeah, something happened with him.

Tulsi Gabbard 39:49 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:49 Yeah. We can't talk about it. Um, but there's, there's a thing that they're doing. Well, there's, there's a couple things they're doing, but one of the things they're doing with this, um, with your data, they find out what you're interested in, they find out what you're interested in engaging on.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:04 And for many people, that's outrage.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:07 So for many people, it's the things that piss you off the most, like if you have a real problem with Catholic priests getting away with having sex with little boys, you will think that that's happening every minute of every day all across the world-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:19 ... because it's gonna be in your newsfeed constantly-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:21 ... 'cause they know that's what makes you engage.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:23 So your algorithm, the algorithm is, your, your feed is gonna be very different than my feed-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:28 ... 'cause I engage on different things than you do.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:30 And the problem with that is even if they're not calculating, if, if it's not on purpose, they're not trying to get people outraged, it's not like they're trying to rabble rouse, but what they are doing is they, because they have an ad-supported model-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:43 ... they gravitate towards the, the outrageous because that's what people get excited about and that's what people make multiple posts about-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:49 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 40:50 ... and that's how they make their revenue.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:51 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 40:51 It gets a bad ad model. It's an ou- an ad model that inadvertently supports outrage.

Tulsi Gabbard 40:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:58 And it makes people think the world's a worse place-

Tulsi Gabbard 40:59 And divisiveness-

Joe Rogan 41:00 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:00 ... and all of it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:01 And this, the, the, the tribal boundaries, the, between the, the two sides-

Tulsi Gabbard 41:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:06 ... on these issues are more tense, and, and you would think that discourse and the ability to freely communicate would kind of open that up and people would kind of understand each other better-

Tulsi Gabbard 41:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:15 ... but it's not happening.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:16 It's like, think Twitter is a garbage fire all day long.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:20 Oh.

Joe Rogan 41:20 It's just fire.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:21 Like, you can't post anything about anything, and there's people just jumping on people, and-

Tulsi Gabbard 41:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:25 ... it's, it's a crazy thing that has happened that we gravitate towards the outrageous.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:32 I don't think that should be rewarded financially.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:35 I think that's not... I- if this is just what people go to organically, that's one thing, but when you're cultivating feeds so that, or at least your algorithm is cultivating feeds so that people get pissed off, you're making the country a shittier place.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:50 Like, you're literally, like, making things worse.

Tulsi Gabbard 41:53 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the reasons why, um, I think a couple of things should happen, and, and, uh, I think his name is Chris Hughes who cofounded Facebook with Zuckerberg-

Joe Rogan 42:04 I saw that, yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:05 ... did you see his article-

Joe Rogan 42:06 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:06 ... calling for Facebook to be broken up?

Joe Rogan 42:08 Yes, and which is crazy.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:10 Y- you hear about the person who founded it, and he's saying, "This is out of control."

Tulsi Gabbard 42:14 I- and that's the point right now-

Joe Rogan 42:16 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:16 ... is, is seeing how powerful, as you said, guys like Mark Zuckerberg have become and, uh, and how out of control things are.

Joe Rogan 42:25 Well, some of it just doesn't make sense. Like here's one. They just banned Alex Jones.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:29 Yep.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Not only did they ban Alex Jones, but you can't talk about Alex Jones. If you wrote, "Alex Jones might be nuts, but damn, is he cute," if you wrote that, y- it would, you would get a message that says, "Only you can see this message."

Tulsi Gabbard 42:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:44 This message is stopped at the border from entering into the Facebook universe.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:50 Like, what the fuck?

Tulsi Gabbard 42:50 It's crazy.

Joe Rogan 42:51 You can't just, like what if you want to say something funny?

Tulsi Gabbard 42:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 You can't say something funny. No, you can only say something if you're criticizing him.

Tulsi Gabbard 42:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:59 This is what they've said.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:00 Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:00 So they're telling you how to think.... which is fucking insane.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:04 It is insane.

Joe Rogan 43:05 'Cause that's not just free sp- That's not just, like, a violation of free speech. You're literally directing speech.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:12 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:13 Like, that's insane.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:14 So, you're, you're, you're not even blocking people from doing something hateful or evil, you're blocking people from saying something that you disagree with.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:23 That's right.

Joe Rogan 43:24 Which is, uh, uh, people have sent me messages that said, uh, "God bless Alex Jones," and they say, y- "I," "You can only see this message." Facebook sends them a thing blocking that message.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:33 Wow.

Joe Rogan 43:34 That's fucking crazy.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:35 Like, the, the idea that you think you can do that-

Tulsi Gabbard 43:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:37 ... that is nuts.

Tulsi Gabbard 43:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:39 I mean, uh, being able to ban anyone arbitrarily without any, just, "Violated terms of service."

Tulsi Gabbard 43:44 There you go.

Joe Rogan 43:45 What does that mean?

Tulsi Gabbard 43:46 Yep.

Joe Rogan 43:46 Okay. Be specific-

Tulsi Gabbard 43:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:48 ... and w- how come, I mean, they've, uh, they took a, a bunch of people out, right? Like, Louis Farrakhan was one, Alex Jones. Paul Joseph Watson was, like, what did that guy ever do? I mean, people don't agree with him? Like, I think what's happening is there was some serious concern that Facebook was used to influence the last election-

Tulsi Gabbard 44:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:08 ... in, uh, aga- whether against their knowledge or in a, a way where they were negligent about the type of filtering they use that stops people from posting propaganda, and particularly stops these things like the IRA, the Internet Research Agency in Russia that literally creates thousands of profiles and pages. And they'll have a Black Lives Matter page that's just designed to fuck with cops, and then they'll have a pro-cop page that's just designed to fuck with Black Lives-

Tulsi Gabbard 44:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:37 ... Matter. All they wanna do is create anger.

Tulsi Gabbard 44:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:40 And, and they're doing this, engineering these arguments. I mean, this is, this is 100% proven fact. Renee DiResta, who had been on my podcast, went over the details of how it's set up and how they do it.

Tulsi Gabbard 44:51 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:52 And the memes, and the memes that they create. Like, this is an organized effort that they channeled through Facebook in particular-

Tulsi Gabbard 44:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:58 ... and then Instagram and a couple other social media sites.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:01 Yeah. You know what's interesting about Renee? She worked for New Knowledge, right?

Joe Rogan 45:05 I do not know.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:05 I think she was a director for New Knowledge. Um, they, this company, New Knowledge, that the DNC has tapped as one of their, um, I don't know, disinformation campaign experts and cyber experts, was the very same company that created false accounts and pretended to be Russian bots in order to influence a US Senate election in Alabama.

Joe Rogan 45:35 Yeah, I'd heard of that, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 45:36 So-

Joe Rogan 45:37 That, that's something that she was not a part of, but it happened before-

Tulsi Gabbard 45:39 Yeah, I don't, I don't know her-

Joe Rogan 45:40 Her time. She was a director of research, it says.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:42 At New Knowledge.

Joe Rogan 45:43 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:43 Not

Narrator 45:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:44 And that's, but that's post this happening, correct? I don't know. She sent me an email about it. Yeah. I, 'cause I questioned her about it-

Tulsi Gabbard 45:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:50 ... after it happened.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:51 And I don't think she's full of shit.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:53 Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I, I've never met her, but I know that that company-

Joe Rogan 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 45:56 ... is one that is often cited as this, as a so-called expert and was a company that was cited, um, uh, to try to smear my campaign as somehow being a, uh, an engine for the Russians or something like that, which, which to me, again, just points to, well, let- let's look at, let's look at the ex- the so-called experts that you're citing and this company, New Knowledge, and the kinds of actions that they've been taking, the very same ones that they're criticizing others for doing.

Joe Rogan 46:25 It's a dirty world out there.

Tulsi Gabbard 46:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:28 (laughs) It's a, it's a dirty world.

Tulsi Gabbard 46:28 It's the Wild West of the internet. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:30 (laughs) It is. Well, it's, it is a Wild West in the sense that, I mean, I think there should be regulation. Like, I mean, I don't think you should be able to put child porn everywhere, I don't think you should be able to dox people.

Tulsi Gabbard 46:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:40 But it's like, where does that border stop?

Tulsi Gabbard 46:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:43 Where does that regulation border stop?

Tulsi Gabbard 46:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:45 And I think it's a very good question. Do you think that these social media platforms, whether it's Google or Twitter or whatever, Facebook, do you think that they should be treated as a public utility where everyone essentially has the right to use them? You have the right to use water. You don't have the right to take a hose and smash your neighbor's window and flood his house.

Tulsi Gabbard 47:04 That's right. I do. I do think that they should be regulated like that, and they should be subject to the very same antitrust laws that have been used to make sure that we don't have other monopolies in other industries or in other areas, uh, to, to, to break them up.

Joe Rogan 47:22 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 47:22 And I think that was something that, uh, that Chris Hughes outlined in his article. The very first step that could be taken is just to say, hey, you've got to, uh, you've got to... Facebook needs to let go of Instagram and WhatsApp.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 47:35 Because that was something, uh, that acquisition created an even stronger monopoly that really shouldn't have been allowed to take place in the beginning. And so there are, there are, uh, concerns about the kind of power being, um, you know, consolidated into the hands of a very few people, uh, as well as how that's impacting, uh, any kind of, uh, competition and squashing that competition from coming up and saying, hey, you know, you've got Facebook and then you've got this other new techn- social media technology. They've got better privacy standards and better service for the consumer than Facebook. But any time that that tries to happen, uh, you know, they're quickly squashed by companies like Facebook or Google for that matter.

Joe Rogan 48:16 Or bought up.

Tulsi Gabbard 48:17 Or bought up, exactly.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Yeah. That's, that's, that's the, the big concern is that there's just not enough variety. And there's also a big concern that, and I have a big concern, that there's a bunch of people that don't seem to understand the consequences of what they're calling deplatforming people. It's basically censoring people. Taking people out of the public discussion.

Tulsi Gabbard 48:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:40 And when, when you do that and you create a bubble or you create a one-party leaning institution, one-party leaning conglomeration-

Tulsi Gabbard 48:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:51 ... of human beings, you're gonna develop some real anger-

Tulsi Gabbard 48:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:55 ... on the other side.

Tulsi Gabbard 48:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:56 And it, it does the opposite of what you want it to do. What you want it to do is make the world a better place. Let's take some of these angry voices out of the mix-

Tulsi Gabbard 49:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:05 ... and let's make the world a better place.

Tulsi Gabbard 49:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:06 It just makes them more angry.

Tulsi Gabbard 49:07 And encourage, encourage discourse.

Joe Rogan 49:10 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 49:10 Encourage these kinds of conversations where you can, you can engage with people who might have a different view on an issue or might have a different experience that they bring to the conversation. And to do so, that actually helps increase the knowledge and understanding, um, that we have.

Joe Rogan 49:25 Yeah, I think we have to reward-... civil discourse-

Tulsi Gabbard 49:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:28 ... as well. I think we have to be kinder to each other and we have to-

Tulsi Gabbard 49:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:31 ... we have to be more upset at people that are acting like shitheads online for no reason. Like, you're just... You think that it's just online-

Tulsi Gabbard 49:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:40 ... but it, what it is, is communication.

Tulsi Gabbard 49:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:42 And if you're interested in shitty communication online, you're just a shitty communicator, okay?

Tulsi Gabbard 49:47 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:48 All this calling it being a troll and all this different thing, all these different l- labels that people put on to make it cuter and whitewash it-

Tulsi Gabbard 49:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:55 ... it's not good. It's not good for anybody.

Tulsi Gabbard 49:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:57 And if people could figure out how to be less angry in their online lives and, uh, and communicate about issues, I think we'd find that we meet more in the middle than we think we do. I think there's also a problem that people have where they become married to their ideas and they dig their heels in and they, they support their ideology and they're very rigid about it.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:19 And that is only strengthened when you silence people.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:23 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:23 It's, it does the opposite of what you're hoping it's gonna do, it makes the world a worse place, it makes... Look, if people are saying things that you don't like, you don't have to read that.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:33 But if you tell people that no one can read that, they'll-

Tulsi Gabbard 50:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:35 ... they're gonna go, "Why do you get to decide?"

Tulsi Gabbard 50:37 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:37 "And who are you?"

Tulsi Gabbard 50:38 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:39 "Who are you? You're a regular person?"

Tulsi Gabbard 50:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:41 "How wise are you?"

Tulsi Gabbard 50:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:42 "How many steps ahead have you played this game?"

Tulsi Gabbard 50:44 That's right.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Because I'm looking at this game, I'm looking at civil war.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:47 I'm looking at worst case scenario, this goes to that, that goes to this-

Tulsi Gabbard 50:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:51 ... this guy attacks that, that guy attacks this, they can't talk anymore, you got people fighting in the streets.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:56 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:56 That happens.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:57 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:57 That's a human characteristic.

Tulsi Gabbard 50:58 That's right. That's right. And that's, that is where this path ends up, this path that we're on of this, this hyper-partisanship-

Joe Rogan 51:06 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:06 ... this extreme divisiveness where it's either you're in my tribe or you're in the other tribe, and the arrows are pointed at each other without any willingness to, once again, just, let's just have a conversation. Let me hear where you're coming from, hear where I'm coming from. We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can even have a heated conversation and a debate.

Joe Rogan 51:24 And I would say that-

Tulsi Gabbard 51:25 But at the end of it-

Joe Rogan 51:25 ... what you're saying is patriotic.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:27 This is patriotic.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:28 And I think it's unpatriotic to be partisan-

Tulsi Gabbard 51:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:31 ... because I think we're supposed to be on a team together.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:34 We're supposed to be team America, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 51:35 Exactly. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 51:36 What are we doing? We're, we're fighting over nonsense and mis- mischaracterizing people's positions just to suit our own ideas.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:43 That's right.

Joe Rogan 51:43 It's, it's foolish.

Tulsi Gabbard 51:45 It's, it's foolish. And as you said, it's extremely dangerous and the American people are the ones who, who ultimately lose in all of this. Uh, this has been one of the most frustrating things that I've seen and experienced throughout my over six years in Congress that really started, um, like when I first went up after I got elected, uh, where after every election happens and new members of Congress, they go and, uh, they have what's called new member orientation, and they give you these books and here's the maps and here's where your office is and, you know, all the, all the administrative and logistical stuff. But very quickly, I would say within the first few days, um, you know, where we first come in together as Democrats and Republicans, immediately, okay, Democrats go this way, Republicans go this way, immediately separated. And what we're told right off the bat is, "Look, this is about, uh, getting wins for our political party, and if you work with a Republican, then that's gonna hurt the party, especially if you work with a Republican that the Democratic Party is trying to take out." Forget the substance of the idea, forget the substance of the bill. And this happens on the opposite side as well, Republicans with Democrats. Both, both political parties are diff- are, are, um, guilty of this, where they're really putting the interests of the political party ahead of the people who just voted for us to go and serve them, and not just the Democrats who voted for me, but yes, the r- the Independents and the Republicans, both who voted for me or who didn't, but who, uh, I serve as part of my constituency. And, uh, you just, you, you continue to- I've continued to see this where, you know, you'll have a bill that because it's a Democrat bill, Republicans will vote against it, substance aside.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 53:28 Or a Republican bill, Democrats will vote against it just because it's a Republican bill. But then, hey, if, if they come in and, you know, a month or a year later introduce the same bill or a similar bill, but now because it's a Democratic bill, "Okay, everybody, hey, let's go, let's go and support this legislation." You can, you can imagine why there is so much gridlock in Washington, why nothing really gets done, and ultimately how this divisiveness and this hyper-partisanship is hurting the ability for the needs of the American people to be served.

Joe Rogan 54:02 When you talk about people like yourself that are completely funded by the public-

Tulsi Gabbard 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:08 ... and you have this very logical and objective way of discussing this gridlock, do you think that the future is in young people like yourself getting involved in politics, that they, they're not connected to this old world for 35, 45 years?

Tulsi Gabbard 54:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:25 This world, it sounds like this is just what you do.

Tulsi Gabbard 54:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:28 I mean, I watched House of Cards.

Tulsi Gabbard 54:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:30 I get kinda-

Tulsi Gabbard 54:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:31 ... I get it sort of. What that, that seems like chaos.

Tulsi Gabbard 54:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:34 And it seems like there's no way to fix that. It's almost like these people have to stop being politicians.

Tulsi Gabbard 54:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:39 They have to be voted out or die off. I mean, if-

Tulsi Gabbard 54:42 Yeah. Well, I think it, it's evident where we see those who are very entrenched in this, um, this broken system feel very threatened by the rise of people-powered campaigns, individual contributions coming in and supplanting the big money that they get from, um, you know, the PACs and, PACS and lobbyists. And, and, and there's fear there because they see, um, their whole world being disrupted by people like me or others who are coming in and saying, "No, we're not buying into any of that, and we're coming in to actually fulfill the mission that we've been charged with by those who voted for us to serve the people, all the people of this country."

Joe Rogan 55:26 And would you say that, would you... Well, this is my position. I think that Trump plays a part of that because I think he was the first guy to cam- to come-... to come in sp- basically self-funded, or being funded through his own means.

Tulsi Gabbard 55:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:40 And not listening to the rest of the Republican Party, saying, "Hey, I'm gonna take over."

Tulsi Gabbard 55:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:45 "And I'm gonna do this my way." And then knowing that he could do that, and knowing that there were so many Republicans against him, and knowing that there's so many Democrats against him as well, but yet he's still the president.

Tulsi Gabbard 55:54 Yep.

Joe Rogan 55:54 And people are like, "Jesus, this is a fragile system." Like this system is, it's d- what they've done to acquire power is still very vulnerable, even though they have this deeply entrenched-

Tulsi Gabbard 56:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:05 ... system of weird little relationships that it's not good enough.

Tulsi Gabbard 56:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:09 That if the people do rise up and they decide, "Hey, we wanna put Tulsi, uh, in as president," you, you're gonna have a different situation, a- and a lot of you clowns are gonna be out of work.

Tulsi Gabbard 56:17 Absolutely. I mean, and that's really, that, that's the message that we're carrying to, to living rooms and town halls and communities across the country is, uh, Washington continues to underestimate the power of the people. But it-

Joe Rogan 56:30 And it's supposed to work for you.

Tulsi Gabbard 56:31 Exactly. And that's the thing is, you know, our founding fathers had this vision for our country that our government would be of the people, by the people, and for the people. And instead what we have is a government of the rich and powerful, by and for the rich and powerful, or of the special interests and corporations, by and for the special interests and corporations.

Joe Rogan 56:51 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 56:51 And, you know, we the people get left behind.

Joe Rogan 56:54 And they continue to talk to us like they're in control.

Tulsi Gabbard 56:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:58 They are one of us and they're supposed to be public employees.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:01 They're supposed, they're supposed to be servants-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:02 That's right.

Joe Rogan 57:03 ... of the public.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:04 They don't talk like that.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:05 No.

Joe Rogan 57:05 They talk like people who are in a position of power and influence.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:09 And it's not healthy.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:10 No.

Joe Rogan 57:10 It's not a healthy perspective.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:12 It, it, it's, it's evident of that huge disconnect-

Joe Rogan 57:14 Yes.

Tulsi Gabbard 57:14 ... between the bubble that is Washington and the reality of the lives that we live every day, people all across this country.

Joe Rogan 57:22 That's always the case though, when people get in control of things. They always meddle, make it easier for them, make it better for them. "What can I do to make this a little easier?"

Tulsi Gabbard 57:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:30 "Okay, is there another way? How can I help-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:32 ... myself here? How can I make sure that when I get out of office I can do these public speaking-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:37 ... tours and make a quarter million dollars a pop?"

Tulsi Gabbard 57:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:39 When I hear about the money those guys make to just go and talk, I'm like-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:42 ... what, who is paying for that?

Tulsi Gabbard 57:44 That's right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:45 Who is paying to listen to Hillary Clinton talk?

Tulsi Gabbard 57:46 What are they getting out of it?

Joe Rogan 57:47 What are you getting out of that?

Tulsi Gabbard 57:48 That's right.

Joe Rogan 57:49 Like can I listen?

Tulsi Gabbard 57:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:50 I would love to, like, pret- pretend to be a banker, to put a lizard skin face mask on-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:54 ... and go sit with those bankers-

Tulsi Gabbard 57:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:56 ... and listen to one of those conversations that Hillary Clinton got paid a quarter million dollars to talk about.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:00 Yeah. Never release the transcripts for it.

Joe Rogan 58:02 What is that about?

Tulsi Gabbard 58:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:03 Like who is p- wha- wh-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:05 It's some- well, some weird sneaky deal-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:07 ... that they make.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:08 Where you-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:08 I mean, n-

Joe Rogan 58:09 Nobody wants to pay that.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:10 No.

Joe Rogan 58:10 Like, go to that massive credit card and see how many tickets you still have.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:12 Yeah, right. (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:13 (laughs) They're, they're, Bill and Hillary are doing like the-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:15 ... speaking tour thing right now.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:17 I am baffled as to who is gonna pay to go see Bill and Hillary bullshit them.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:23 That's right, they're doing it together now, right?

Joe Rogan 58:25 'Cause you know they're not being real. Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Bill is so old, why doesn't he just come clean?

Tulsi Gabbard 58:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:28 You know, I, I, I would love to get that guy and just get him drunk, and put him on the, uh, just, like, have him just talk about life. You know, you only got, like, a few years left, everything's falling apart in your body.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:39 What are your regrets?

Tulsi Gabbard 58:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:40 What'd you do wrong? What could you have done differently? Stop all this bullshitting.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:44 Like, what, what, you know-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:46 You should have him on your show, Joe.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Oh, I would love to. I would love to do mushrooms with him.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:49 There you go. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:49 That's what I wanted to, I wanted to have him on the show and, uh, do it in, uh, Colorado-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:54 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:54 ... 'cause they decriminalized mushrooms.

Tulsi Gabbard 58:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:56 It's just-

Tulsi Gabbard 58:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:57 ... uh, th- this role of being the person that is in control of this country has always been this impossible task. And when I see a person like you who wants to do it-

Tulsi Gabbard 59:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:09 ... I, I s- I say, "Listen, you have some of the best ideas and the most healthy perspective that I've ever heard from anyone that's ever running for president. But why would you want to do that to yourself?" Those are the two things that I think of.

Tulsi Gabbard 59:20 Because it's not for myself. And, and it's not to be in control of the country and the people, it's to serve the people and our country. It's a continuation of this mission that I've chosen for my life to be of service, to find different ways to do that. You know, it started in Hawaii with gathering my friends as a kid and going and picking up trash off the beach on the weekends. And experiencing even then at a young age that that made me happier than, than anything else.

Joe Rogan 59:49 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 59:49 Than, you know, going and playing video games with my friends or anything like that. And that, um, that mission that, that was deeply ingrained in me further with my service in the military, serving as a soldier, where, you know, I'm serving alongside people of all walks of life. As you know, every race, religion, ethnicity, orientation, everything, every one of us wearing that same uniform, serving that same flag that represents the American people with that laser-like focus on putting service above self. And that's what I seek to bring to the White House, to, to restore those values of integrity and honor, uh, and respect. To make it so that that White House is a beacon of light for the American people, to know that that White House belongs to them and represents them and their interests and their interests alone.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 Does anybody, the, the, I mean, even a person like you who's on the outside, do you think anybody truly knows what it's like to run the country until they get in there? Do they, could, can you even have an idea of what it, uh, how impossible a task it is to be in control of the economy, the environment, the, the infrastructure, the military, our, our position in the world? To get, uh, uh, it seems like the most insane duty-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:01:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 ... to require someone to run all those things-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:01:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 ... to be aware of all those things, to be responsible for all of the successes and all of the failures.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:01:11 Yeah. Um, it's an awesome responsibility. There's no question about that. Uh, and I think it fulfills that, um...... that higher, that higher, that higher calling. That this is not about any kind of selfish interest. This, for me, is not about any kind of ambition that I've had. I've never had any kind of thought, "Well, I want to be president one day," or even, "I want to be a member of Congress one day." It's always been about, uh, how can I, how can I best be of service and how can I make a greater impact? And that's what I've seen throughout my time in Congress, where I've served on these committees. I've served on the Foreign Affairs and Armed Services Committees. I've been, been calling for and fighting for an end to these wasteful regime change wars, an end to this new Cold War and nuclear arms race. There's only so much I can do as a member of Congress, uh, to be able to serve as president and commander-in-chief. I know that I can make that kind of impact and see change in our policy that keeps our country safe, that moves us closer to that future of peace and prosperity. And that's where I hope to be able to make a difference.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 If you d- become president ... Or sh- excuse me. When you become president.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:02:17 There you go.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 Sorry. And you do get to change the way we spend money-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:02:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 ... and stop spending money on these regime change wars, what would be the first thing you invested in in this country?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:02:30 Hmm. That's a-

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 And how would you go about doing that?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:02:32 That's a good question. I think there's, um ... I'd wanna give that some thought, because there are a whole host of, of challenges that we're facing. You know, I mean, healthcare is, is among the top of the list, and, you know, we've talked a little bit about that the last time I was here. Our crumbling infrastructure continues to be something that's not only just uncomfortable every time we're driving over potholes, it's actually, uh, threatening people's lives and well-beings. Uh, I was in Iowa a few weeks ago, and we visited this ... a few communities that were completely inundated and devastated by the flooding, um, that took place there, gosh, about three, three or four weeks ago now. Uh, many of them have not been able to return to their homes. We went and helped out one family. We were tearing down drywall and ripping up the floors, and underneath the wood and the floors, there was still, like, tons of water, uh, in place. And they were talking about how even with, you know, the aid from FEMA and s- and SBA loans, that they, they are unwilling to put a single dollar back into rebuilding their homes, because they're hearing from the government and the Army Corps of Engineers that it may take two to four years to fix the levees that broke down and caused that flooding. So, why would they go and try to pour their life savings back into rebuilding their homes when they could get flooded again in a year or in two years? Because we're not making the kinds of investments in our infrastructure that we need to make. Uh, so there's, you know, education. I mean, there's a whole host of issues, um, that I think we need to look at how we can best provide the resources that are necessary to improve those services, uh, to the American people, and also look at how, how we're doing business and, and fixing the problems that exist within those different agencies.

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 W- there's always been a call to help countries in need in the world.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:04:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:28 There's always been a call for the United States to step in and, you know, and, and, and do something. But yet, there's problems in this country-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:04:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 ... that are ... that never change.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:04:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 There's bad communities in this country that are impoverished and crime-ridden that have been the same way-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:04:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 ... for decades. There was a former Baltimore police officer named Michael Wood who came on my podcast, and he was talking to me about the time when he was in the Baltimore Police Department. They found a piece of paper that was documenting various crimes from the 1970s for some one i- one of the years, from 1970-something. And it was the same exact crime in the same exact area that they were having problems with now.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:11 Gosh.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Whether it's homicide, uh, narcotics, whatever it was, they were having the exact same issue in the exact same places. And then he realized, like, "Well this is ... there's no effort put to change this."

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 There's no ... Uh, there's i- i- if you're talking about decades and decades and decades, why wasn't there, uh, money funneled into this community?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Why isn't there some community centers that help children? Why isn't there an emphasis on better d- better education?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 Why isn't there more police officers or at least, uh, some sort of civilian presence-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 ... that helps out people and stops some of this crime and gives people a better place to live and then fix a lot of this ... what you're seeing decade after decade?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 If we wanna make America better, the best way to do that is to fix the weakest parts.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:05:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:59 The weakest parts are the people that are born in a shit situation. They don't get a good break.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 They, they got a bad break. They're born in a crime-ridden environment, and then they have to figure out how to be a better person while dealing with all this.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:12 And then you've got people that are aloof to this, that are like, "Hey, figure it out for yourself. I did."

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 Like, as if we all start from the same spot in this crazy game called Life, 'cause we don't.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:21 No.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 Those people are in the worst spot. Why can't we fix the worst spot?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 It seems like we could.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 If we can help Iraq, if we can invade Syria, if we can do some of the things-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 ... that people either want us to do or h- we have done, why can't we do that?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:36 Exactly. And that's, that's what I often remind people is that right now, today, we spend $4 billion every month in Afghanistan. $4 billion.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Every month.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:06:47 Every single month. Imagine what could be done with those dollars and those resources in communities like Baltimore, in communities like Flint, Michigan, where people are still being poisoned by their water, where they're being lied to and cheated by their leadership, where the governor sent in these inspectors and cleared the water saying, "Hey, everything's fine." But what he didn't tell people was that when those inspectors went in, they turned the faucet and let the water run for five minutes before they tested it to clean all the crap out of the pipes and create this false conclusion that somehow the water is clean when the people who live there know that it is still not safe to drink. And for some folks, they can't even take a shower-

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 (sighs)

Tulsi Gabbard 1:07:30 ... in their own homes. And so that's why you're not gonna hear any other presidential candidates talking about the cost of war-... and where our money is going and how it is counter to our national security. It's making us less safe. It's counter to the interest of our people and the people in those countries. But this is why I talk about this everywhere I go because it's central. It's central to our ability to address these domestic challenges that we are facing, we in this country are facing, in communities across the country dealing with healthcare, affordable housing. There's a homeless crisis in both urban cities and rural communities. People who are not able to afford to put a roof over their heads. People who are working full-time, maybe one, maybe two jobs even, still can't afford to put a roof over their heads. There's serious issues that we need to address here. But to think that somehow we'll have the resources to do so without addressing where trillions of our dollars have been going now for the last several years, uh, is a lie. It's just not true.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 When you talk about people that are working full-time jobs-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:08:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 ... and they still don't have enough money to get by, what could you do to change that?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:08:40 Well, I think there's, uh, uh, we... There's not one single action that can fix that. Uh, you know, I'm pushing for a living wage. I think it's important that we-

Joe Rogan 1:08:49 What do you think that should be?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:08:51 Uh, it's, it's gonna be different in different places. You know, I've, I'm a co-sponsor of the, uh, congressional legislation to raise the minimum wage to $15 at the federal level. Um, you know, there has not been an increase in the federal minimum wage for a very long time, uh, and I think that's, that's a step that can be taken. But, you know, Los Angeles is like Hawaii where a $15 an hour job is not gonna be enough to pay the rent. 'Cause you got high cost of living. So a living wage is gonna be higher in, in communities like ours than it is in smaller communities or communities-

Joe Rogan 1:09:24 So what would you-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:09:24 ... in the Midwest.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 What would you suggest for Los Angeles? $20 an hour?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:09:28 I don't, I, I don't know what the answer is here.

Joe Rogan 1:09:29 But it would have to be more?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:09:30 I think so.

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 The argument against that would be that small businesses would go under or hire less people or that somehow or another it would be bad for business. What do you think about-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:09:39 I think there, I think there's a, a... You know, I mean, the cost of living here is higher. And so what we are paying the employees who work in these industries and these service jobs has to match that. It has to correlate with that higher cost of living. It costs more to go out to eat here than it does to go out to eat in a restaurant in, I don't know, Alabama, for example.

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:10:00 So I think we've gotta, we've gotta recognize people who are doing the work, um, that correlates with the higher cost of living that we're seeing already. Um, I'm, I'm really looking at the universal basic income, uh, and seeing how that could be a tool to, um, help deal with a lot of these poverty-stricken communities and people who have been struggling and still unable to dig themselves out of a hole there. And seeing how that potentially could replace a lot of the bureaucracy, uh, a lot of the money that we're spending on bureaucracy and a lot of social welfare programs, perhaps, to both save money and to provide support directly, uh, to people who need it. Uh, so I think that's an option that we've gotta consider. There's, it's, it's not simple and so I'm doing the research and figuring out how exactly that would work and how exactly we'd pay for it. Uh, but we also have to look at affordable housing. I think not accepting the fact that the high cost of housing is what it is, um, is, is not the solution. Um, there's a lot of money that goes into our Housing and Urban Development department, but is it really having the effect that we need it to have to make it so that, you know, whether it's cops or teachers or firefighters, people who are working these public service jobs are able to afford to live in, live in the communities, uh, where they're working? Uh, we were in Malibu yesterday. We had a town hall there yesterday and took a tour with the mayor, city council members, community leaders around a lot of the areas that were completely devastated by the fires. And that was one of the things that they mentioned is that, uh, they pointed out a trailer park, um, traditionally where a lot of those first responders live. That's where the workforce in Malibu have lived, in that trailer park. And they said that it's not unheard of that one of those trailer homes go for a million bucks. A million bucks and you don't even get to own the land that your trailer sits on. And so this is a real problem that they're facing is people who are teaching in that area, the firefighters who are working in that area, they're not able to afford to live in the community that they serve.

Joe Rogan 1:12:02 But how could that be fixed? That's a, a supply and demand thing. There's not that much beachfront area.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:12:06 Well, some, some communities... I mean, you know, there's, there's land in the valleys and, and other areas, but some communities are dealing with this, uh, both in the private sector. There's, there's hotels in Hawaii, for example, who are recognizing that they can't attract workers to work in the hotels because they can't afford to live near where they work.

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:12:25 And they're starting to buy up properties to actually provide that workforce housing at an affordable cost to be able to attract those workers. Uh, some communities are doing the same thing for, uh, for first responders, for firefighters and others. So this is a problem that, that a lot of, you know, city councils and local communities are trying to, to deal with and solve. But I think it also points to, uh, a bigger problem that we have, um, nationally that there is just not enough affordable, truly affordable housing for working people in the country.

Joe Rogan 1:12:57 But a place like Malibu has always been this exclusive community 'cause there's just not that much Malibu, right?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 It's right next to the water, so it's more valuable.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:06 Like, if, if... Is there a way to do anything that would change that?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:12 Well, this... I-

Joe Rogan 1:13:13 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:13 That's what I was asking the mayor about. And th- and that was-

Joe Rogan 1:13:15 What did he say?

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:15 That was one of the things they said that has been, um... You know, people look at Malibu and they're like, "Well, that's where a bunch of multimillionaire rich people go and buy their beach homes."

Joe Rogan 1:13:23 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:24 But there has always been, uh, you know, the, the basis of that community was really founded on those who worked to build the community. Uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:13:33 Of course.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:13:33 ... middle, middle class, middle class people who are increasingly being pushed out. If you're not living in the home that, you know, your grandfather or your great-grandfather built, then you're not gonna be able to afford to stay there. Uh, so, you know, he... We didn't get into the, the details on what they're looking at, but this is something that the city council and the mayor are grappling with now to be able to...... attract workers who want to work in the area, but who don't want to have to drive two hours or three hours just to get to their place of work.

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 Yeah, I just don't know how you would ever do that.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:06 Especially with all those fat cats that are living in Malibu. I mean-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 ... that's a crazy place to live.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 Those houses on the beach are, like, ridiculously expensive.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:15 Yeah. And that's where a lot of, I mean, a lot of the folks we were talking to yesterday, they live, uh, you know, up on the mountain-

Joe Rogan 1:14:20 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:20 ... or, or in the valley, or-

Joe Rogan 1:14:22 That's a better spot anyway.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 The thing, the diff- thing about being by the beach is people can just kind of hang out in your backyard, like, right there.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:29 Like, right where your bedroom is. (laughs)

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:30 There could be people that are cooking out-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:32 ... four feet away from your head.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:34 That's a-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:34 Not so much privacy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:36 You got none. It's the beach, it's everybody's.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:39 Like, uh, people have tried to kick people off of it too, which gets really strange.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:42 There's been a lot of those cases where they hire private security.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:46 But it's like trying to kick someone out of a park because you decided to have a picnic.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:50 That's true.

Joe Rogan 1:14:50 Like, hey man, this beach is everybody's.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:52 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:14:52 That's the ocean, bro.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:53 And it's got to stay that way.

Joe Rogan 1:14:53 Yeah, it has to stay that way.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:14:54 It's got to stay that way. I have a problem (laughs) with, this is just a personal problem with, with municipalities that charge you to go to the beach.

Joe Rogan 1:15:02 It's crazy.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:04 So if I have no money in my pocket, you're going to bar me from going and putting my feet on the sand-

Joe Rogan 1:15:09 Right.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:09 ... and going for a surf in the ocean? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:15:11 It's insane.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:12 ... that's just wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:15:12 It's insane.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:13 It's wrong.

Joe Rogan 1:15:13 It is wrong, right? I mean, I could see if you had a donation box to help people clean up the beach.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 That's all I could see.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:22 Donations.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:23 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 That's it. I'll throw some money in there.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:24 Or I mean, like, I'll pay-

Joe Rogan 1:15:25 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:25 ... for my parking.

Joe Rogan 1:15:26 Sure, sure.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:27 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:15:27 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:27 But don't stop me from coming on the beach.

Joe Rogan 1:15:29 Yeah, you can't do that.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:29 Like, I'll catch a bus if I don't have any money.

Joe Rogan 1:15:31 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:31 I'll catch a bus to the beach. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 Poor people sh- y- you've got to, like, that's the whole reason we have these national parks.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:36 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:15:37 National wilderness areas. So anybody-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:40 ... anybody can get in there.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:42 That's the beautiful thing about... One of the best things about the, the system that we have in place in America-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:15:48 ... is that there's so much public land.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:15:50 And people don't understand that. They've never been to other countries where that's just not the case. Everything is private-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:55 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:55 ... in many, many countries. You can't just go camping.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:15:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:58 You can't just take a raft and go down the river. You can't just do that.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:02 And, and what happens when those public spaces are, are lost?

Joe Rogan 1:16:07 It's horrible.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:07 When they're lost, they're lost forever.

Joe Rogan 1:16:08 Forever.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:08 When you pave over them, when you develop them-

Joe Rogan 1:16:11 Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:11 ... you know, when your beaches become trash with pollution and others, like, that's, that's a treasure. It's a treasure that's lost.

Joe Rogan 1:16:18 Well, we have d- our forefathers to thank for their foresight.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:22 Like, Theodore Roosevelt saw this in advance and met with great resistance from a lot of big businesses that just wanted to put apartments up everywhere and-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:31 ... start building factories.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:33 And we created this incredible system of public land in this country that's unprecedented.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:38 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:39 I mean, only Canada has something that rivals us. Well, I guess f- Australia's got a lot of public land too, but it's just, it... There's other countries that have it, but it's amazing what we have here. And, and in terms of our diversity of s- of scenery and, and where you could go too.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:16:53 I mean, you could go to the desert or you could go to Idaho and, you know, go to Coeur d'Alene or-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:16:57 Or go see a volcano in Hawaii. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16:59 Yeah. Well, I think you guys have an advantage. I really do. And I've said this about, uh, many people that are f- faced with incomparable beauty and this, uh, inarguable sense of your perspective.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:17:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:17:14 And I think if you're living on a volcano in the middle of the ocean, you're five hours by plane-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:17:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:20 ... from anywhere, like, you guys have a different vibe, you know? And I think-

Tulsi Gabbard 1:17:24 Yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, eh, you go to, you, you, you turn on the news or you talk to politicians in Washington, they talk about, "Okay, we've got to protect our environment." And it's becomes like a political talking point. But, uh, I'm so grateful to have grown up in Hawaii and, uh, you know, that talking point is actually a way of life.

Joe Rogan 1:17:43 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:17:43 Like, this connection that we have, uh, you know, with nature, with Mother Earth is something that's real and it's cultural and it's passed down from generations. And it's, it's actually living out, uh, that, that saying that Mahatma Gandhi had, that the Earth provides enough for everyone's need, but not everyone's greed.

Joe Rogan 1:18:03 Mm-hmm.

Tulsi Gabbard 1:18:03 And what a powerful thing that is when we think about both