Joe Rogan Experience #1297 - Phil Demers

Joe Rogan 0:02 Oh. Hey, fella. What you got there?

Phil Demers 0:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:05 What is that, legal marijuana in your hands?

Phil Demers 0:07 You want a closer look?

Joe Rogan 0:08 You activist, you.

Phil Demers 0:10 I'm such a radical, man. Uh, the streets are- are not safe when I'm out on the loose.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Are you radical?

Phil Demers 0:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:17 You seem like a regular guy.

Phil Demers 0:18 Yeah, yeah. Regular guy, uh, with a irregular amount of stress.

Joe Rogan 0:22 With the walrus right there.

Phil Demers 0:23 Dude, you don't mind my putting it there?

Joe Rogan 0:25 No, no, not at all. Of course. Yeah.

Phil Demers 0:26 I'm so happy to come back and see it.

Joe Rogan 0:27 No, it stays on the desk.

Phil Demers 0:28 Yeah, that thing's amazing.

Joe Rogan 0:29 This, uh, means as much to us as anybody, except for you.

Phil Demers 0:34 Well, it's nice to see it. This is my, uh, this is my happy place. This is my safe place. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:39 (laughs)

Phil Demers 0:39 I gotta travel across the country to be safe, but, uh, it's- it's certainly a pleasure to be here again. And Joe, I always have to thank you. Bottom of my heart, brother.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Uh, listen, brother, I thank you too. I was texting Whitney today, I said, "You're a hero." You're a legitimate hero. (clears throat) For people who don't know what this is all about, I'll give everybody the backstory. Um, Phil used to work at Marineland. He was an orca trainer, and he also trained a walrus named Smooshy. And Smooshy is still allegedly in captivity at Marineland, although there's no photographic evidence, but you're pretty sure she's still there?

Phil Demers 1:14 I was told that she is still there and she's in good shape, and I'm hanging onto that.

Joe Rogan 1:19 Since you came on the podcast the first time, which was how many years ago now?

Phil Demers 1:23 So six years ago, I think. That's 2013.

Joe Rogan 1:25 Six years. So he's been living this lawsuit life for six years, trapped in a lawsuit with a gigantic corporation with incredible amounts of money that's been trying to crush him. And, um, they've made up stuff. Well, tell me what's- what's happened. Give- give me your- your perspective on how it all went down.

Phil Demers 1:46 So back in 2012, I made, I- I was forced to make a very difficult decision. Uh, I elected to speak out against the conditions of which, uh, Marineland's animals were living in. Um, I did so knowing the risks, knowing that Marineland was a litigious company, but I did so on account to the fact that the animals were suffering incredibly. Uh, before quitting, I had an agreement with Marineland that, look, I'm leaving ... this is long before I'd spoke out- I'd spoken out. I'm leaving, but, you know, we have to establish that I can maintain this relationship with the walrus because sh- I imprinted on her. It's important to stress that, that she thinks I'm her mom.

Joe Rogan 2:26 She was a baby.

Phil Demers 2:27 She was a baby when she came in, so she was wild caught, and you can imagine probably witnessed her mother get slaughtered. That's the, uh, that's the method of collecting babies, um, by the- by the captors in Russia. And, uh, so she comes in traumatic at the age of, we estimate about 18 months of age, which is pretty old, in fact, uh, for, uh, in our experience, Marineland's experience of- of acquiring these wild caught baby walruses. Um, and through a sort of traumatic experience with her that I was th- there with her, this anomalous thing happened where her brain circuitry opened up, and much like in the wild where in the case of herd animals, the babies, uh, become familiar with the mother's sound, scent, look, everything. All the senses are acute. They're- they're aware of who they, of where they are so that they can, you know, find each other amidst these thousands of animals. Well, this happened to her. So the brain circuitry opens, suddenly I'm imprinted on her. I wasn't prepared to leave Marineland unless it was of the understanding that I can continue to help her because historically, my relationship with her, uh, you know, had everything to do with her health and well-being. I quit with the understanding with Marineland this was to be the case. I'd been gone for a month. I come back unannounced. They don't want to let me in. They're hiding something. I get in, I see her. She's in terrible shape. I snap a few photos, I leave. Now, amidst this-

Joe Rogan 3:56 When you say terrible shape, like, what do you mean?

Phil Demers 3:58 She was emaciated. She was bone dry. She hadn't eaten in ... The, uh, my having been gone a month was the longest she and I have ever actually been physically apart. I'd been trying to wean my presence off of her so that other trainers could be able to maintain a- a healthy, you know, healthy diet for her, healthy, uh, lifestyle as best as possible.

Joe Rogan 4:15 So she was emaciated because she wasn't eating 'cause of stress?

Phil Demers 4:18 Well, I wasn't there for that month. I can't say. But she was certainly not eating. Uh, she was super skinny. Um, they had her, of course, on a bunch of drugs, which include, uh, psychotics, Valium, uh, antidepressants. Um, I ... When I saw her, my jaw hit the floor. It's important to note that during this, um, some newspapers had been calling. They wanted to know why I quit. If we back up a little bit, it should be noted that in 2007, my relationship with Smooshy sort of took off in the early sort of internet viral days and whatnot. Um, we made front page of like CNN and, uh, Jimmy Kimmel did a piece and, uh ... So there was sort of that backstory of the, you know, I guess you would call it a fluff celebrity type thing. But nonetheless, my having left started, people started asking questions. I started fielding calls from this newspaper who was looking, who was keen on doing an investigation of Marineland. So I wasn't gonna participate. I had no interest. Uh, again, stressing Marineland's litigious history, and also, look, I've got this relationship with a walrus that I- I sort of have to maintain. I have to rel- I have to keep this relationship with, uh, Marineland healthy enough. So once I'd realized they weren't holding onto that end of the bargain, you know, the panic sets in. I'm a first time mom, it should be stressed. Uh, so (laughs) I- I basically called the newspapers and I said, "You put my face, my name, and it doesn't matter. You just print it. Let's go. Let's- let's get the story out." Story gets out. Well, Marineland as expected, starts their lawsuit. They, it's like a, it's almost like a scorched earth. They take a scorched earth, uh, sort of, uh, method in their dealings.

Joe Rogan 5:54 And this was when the original owner was alive?

Phil Demers 5:56 Yes. Yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 5:56 He's no longer alive. He died during this-

Phil Demers 5:58 He died last year in, uh, in June, in fact. So, uh, years into this litigation. So, um...They sued me. They sued me for a million five. They sued my girlfriend, they sued other activists, they sued newspapers, they s- th- they're suing everybody. The mistake they made is in all of their absurd allegations that they've yet, six and a half years into, into litigation yet to prove any of it. They cannot. It's never gonna happen. It doesn't exist. It's a fictitious lawsuit. It's full of lies and bullshit. Bottom line, the mistake they made is they sued me for plotting to steal Smooshie. That's where the headlines take off. And, oh, they also called me the Kanye West of animal training.

Joe Rogan 6:43 Yeah, I remember we went over there- (laughs)

Phil Demers 6:44 That's how I got your attention on the internet.

Joe Rogan 6:46 (laughs)

Phil Demers 6:46 This is why-

Joe Rogan 6:47 No, no, no, that's not how you got my attention, silly.

Phil Demers 6:48 Well, I sent you a tweet. I sent you a tweet.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Yeah, but the Kanye West part didn't get my- (laughs)

Phil Demers 6:52 Well, no, you said they called you ... the tweet was, I said, "Joe, t- you just say when, I'll book a flight to come to LA."

Joe Rogan 6:58 (sighs)

Phil Demers 6:58 I sent you the link to the, to the story.

Joe Rogan 6:59 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 6:59 The headline was, "Kanye West of Animal Training Being Sued for Plotting to Steal a Walrus." You wrote, "They called you the what?"

Joe Rogan 7:05 (laughs)

Phil Demers 7:05 And then you slid into the DMs and said, "Dude, if you're ever in LA..." I said, "You just say when."

Joe Rogan 7:09 Well, I started reading the story. When I started, I've h- you know, I wrote a, um, a piece a long time ago on my blog, and, um, um, I talked about it in one of my comedy specials that, uh, I had a crazy experience with dolphins once, um, when I was really, really high. And I had this, um ... I mean, it's, it sounds silly to even talk about, but I almost feel like I, I kinda understood that they are like us, but they just don't alter their environment. And what I realized, like, when they were playing with us, when they were jumping by the boat, and they, they were looking at you. They were looking at you while they were jumping around with the boat. And I was like, "They're playing, and they're looking at you like a person would, like a water person."

Phil Demers 7:55 They're interacting.

Joe Rogan 7:56 They're-

Phil Demers 7:56 There's almost a language at this point. There's some level of bridged gap in the-

Joe Rogan 8:00 Yeah.

Phil Demers 8:00 ... communication when you get to see that they're expressing themselves in interest in you and whatnot, and, and scoping you, and ... When you get really close and, and establish a relationship with these animals, that's when things start getting real squirrelly because you start to find that happy medium language.

Joe Rogan 8:13 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 8:13 And now all of a sudden you are starting to sort of speak, so to say.

Joe Rogan 8:18 Yeah. Well, I started getting really weird, um, feelings about SeaWorld, and, and, and animal captivity. Like, this w- w- why do we need that in this day and age? Like, this isn't the Dark Ages. We shouldn't be putting whales and orcas and dolphins, putting them in these tanks, these fucking water f- swimming pools. They're fucking swimming pools. And you have these things that are probably as smart as us in some different way. Like, we're so prejudiced in that we only think of intelligence as something that can manipulate its environment. That's our problem. Like, we're like, "Look at them, they're bitch ass world. They don't have any houses. They can't write a letter. They, they're fucking stupid, man. Stop it. They're stupid." But the dolphins apparently have a cerebral cortex that's somewh- something around 40% larger than a human being's. They have super complex languages.

Phil Demers 9:11 Their emotional intelligence is the mystery, and it appears that it's far beyond anything we ourselves can understand. Uh, same as orcas. They've got that, uh, they've got another part of the l- brain in the front, which is th- its function in that, the front of the, the cerebral cortex, that function is to, um, is for communication and for, and for, i- and it ha- it, it enhances their emotional capacity to a point where w- we don't really know the depth of which they are, uh, the power of their emotion, but we know that, uh, they stay with their families for their lifetimes. The males born, uh, from, from the mothers will, will rarely leave the mother's side, quite literally the distance of an orca itself. The only time that male will go on is when it's matured, and it will go to, uh, to its procreate, and then back to the mother. And it will live its entire life as such. And the sad fact about that is, in my experience, uh, working with male orcas caught from the, one of which caught from the wild, a big bull orca is, he was a mama's boy. You can see something was missing. He was traumatized from something. And of course, even myself as a regarded whale expert in the capacity of working at a fricking place like Marineland, even I would have never known this information when I started this. This is not information that was available to us back in ... I started in 2000. It makes sense now. This animal was traumatized from birth. His, uh, uh, hi- his will to live is just gone. Uh, it, it's, uh, and it ... The male, it appears to me and in my experience, the male sex of, uh ... Well, I've worked with seals, I've worked with sea lions, I've worked with, uh, walruses, uh, uh, dolphins, belugas and orcas. All of them die younger. The males die younger. And I think, well, definitely in the orcas and the, and the dolphins cases is they just don't have that will to live without that strong maternal figure in their life.

Joe Rogan 11:03 This is what I try to explain to people that don't see it, and they think that the, the dolphins get treated well or the orcas get treated well. This is what it ... Imagine if someone stole your son and put him in an air box at the bottom of the ocean, and dolphins and whales and fish just came by and stared at him. Imagine. And he lives his life like that, with no contact other than with his, his dolphin handlers or whoever's taking care of him. And he just lives in this box, missing his family, missing his loved ones, missing his life.

Phil Demers 11:37 Confused, lost.

Joe Rogan 11:38 And with, with a language that is, especially with orcas and dolphins, they have a language that's so complex, we haven't been able to really decipher it. We don't understand wh- how it works. You know, John Lilly spent, they, they spent, I think, decades working on trying to get dolphins to speak human noises. He had a bunch of studies that he did. And, um, he even had a d- it's a, it's a crazy story. I'm sure you've heard of it.

Phil Demers 12:06 Oh, I'm aware.

Joe Rogan 12:06 The woman who lived with the dolphin, she, she'd tried to establish a relationship with the dolphin where she, they made an apartment that was half underwater, but the dolphin always wanted to fuck.So she just jerked the dolphin off and when she jerked the dolphin off, that was the only thing that calmed him down. And then she could do her work. So for her, it was just, like, a technicality. "I just gotta jerk this dolphin off. It's an animal, it wants to be rubbed. All the moral stuff that's attached to that is all in my own head." She's like, "I'm just gonna be a scientist." And they were like, "Cut. (laughs) Get that fuck ... What?"

Phil Demers 12:38 I think they were also injecting ketamine into the dolphins or something as well there.

Joe Rogan 12:42 I do not know if they were doing that into dolphins, but I do know that they did some experiments with LSD and that, uh, John Lilly, who is one of my personal heroes, he's the creator of the flotation tank. This was all John Lilly stuff. He was a pioneer in inter-species communication. He would take acid and think that he was communicating with dolphins.

Phil Demers 13:01 Did you know you're on the cover of one of his books?

Joe Rogan 13:03 What?

Phil Demers 13:04 Yes.

Joe Rogan 13:04 What are you talking about?

Phil Demers 13:05 Your face is ... I mean, it's, it's a spitting image on, in one of his books, uh, it's-

Joe Rogan 13:12 One of Lilly's books?

Phil Demers 13:13 Yeah. I think I have to look this up.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Dude, this is creepy conspiracy time-

Phil Demers 13:15 Maybe a simple Google search of-

Joe Rogan 13:16 ... traveler shit.

Phil Demers 13:17 Dude, it's in ... There you are.

Joe Rogan 13:19 What is it? Whoa.

Phil Demers 13:19 How is that not you, man? I'm sorry. How is that not you?

Joe Rogan 13:21 Oh, that's fucking weird-

Phil Demers 13:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:23 ... man. That's fucking weird.

Phil Demers 13:26 Yeah. It-

Joe Rogan 13:26 Wow. Uh, so that's, uh, prog- ... I can't read that. What does it say? Something-

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 13:30 The human, the human computer.

Joe Rogan 13:30 Programming the human computer.

Phil Demers 13:31 Biocomputer.

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 13:31 Yeah, biocomputer.

Joe Rogan 13:32 Yeah. I didn't read that one. I read The Deep Self though. The Deep Self's really interesting. Um, and The Deep Self ... I think The Deep Self is the one that also has, um, diagrams on how to build a tank. He was trying to get people to build tanks. He was like, "Listen, man. I found some shit out. You gotta try this."

Phil Demers 13:50 The last time I was here, uh, not the last time, two times ago, you actually, uh, sent me to Crash.

Joe Rogan 13:56 Yeah. My man, Crash.

Phil Demers 13:57 And, uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:57 Shout-out to Crash at the Float Lab.

Phil Demers 13:59 Yeah, and he, uh ... You know, I thought I'd been there for an hour, it turns out I was in there for a couple. And when I came out, I'm like, "Dude, I was waiting for the knock." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:05 He's just like, "Oh, no, man. Let's just let you stay in there." I'm like, "Oh, shit." I'm looking at the time going, "Fuck."

Phil Demers 14:09 Where am I?

Joe Rogan 14:09 Crash is, like, a legit hippie.

Phil Demers 14:11 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's great.

Joe Rogan 14:12 He's great.

Phil Demers 14:13 He's great.

Joe Rogan 14:13 He's the mad scientist behind Float Lab.

Phil Demers 14:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:16 That's why those things are so well-engineered. When I met him, I was like, "What?" I was like ... 'Cause I ... The tanks before that when I, I s- ... I first got a tank in, like, 2002, somewhere around then, 2002, 2003. And, um, it was, uh, it was great but it was like ... It would break. Things would go wrong. It flooded my basement. (laughs)

Phil Demers 14:38 (laughs) Shit.

Joe Rogan 14:38 It was like ... There was disasters. It wasn't ... And then, um, my friend who was, uh, a tank technician ... There's actually tank technicians. He said, "Listen, you gotta get ... check out this guy in Venice." So some mad scientist down there in Venice was just making these super over-engineered float tanks. And he goes, "They look like walk-in meat lockers."

Phil Demers 14:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 14:55 I was like, "What?" (laughs) And then he showed me-

Phil Demers 14:57 What'd he say? A pod? You had, like, a pod installed?

Joe Rogan 14:58 I had, um ... It, it was a very good tank. It's just that, uh ... It just ... It wasn't as well-constructed. It also wasn't nearly as expensive. It just-

Phil Demers 15:08 He went the distance.

Joe Rogan 15:08 He went the distance.

Phil Demers 15:09 He went for it.

Joe Rogan 15:09 And he still keeps k- ... It keeps coming over here. "I've gotta change things. I've gotta ... We're upgrading. We're doing this." (laughs) It's like he's always-

Phil Demers 15:14 Good for him, man.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Always-

Phil Demers 15:15 He's trying to enhance the experience for everyone. I mean, why not?

Joe Rogan 15:17 Yeah. He's always trying to make it better. He's the front of the line. And when I first started, uh, working with him, like when I first started having him on the podcast and, and I hired him to build me a tank and all that jazz, like, there was no tanks. There was ... It was real rare that you'd find tank centers. Now they're fucking everywhere, man. They're everywhere.

Phil Demers 15:37 Well, I'll say this. The experience I had in his tank versus the one that I ... There's a local place, uh, f- from where, uh, where I'm from, uh, was hands-down a different experience.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Yeah.

Phil Demers 15:46 Because he really isolates you there-

Joe Rogan 15:47 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 15:47 ... whereas this, this was, like, a pod that they bought and installed in a room. I mean, it was great, but-

Joe Rogan 15:51 Well, his is super insulated-

Phil Demers 15:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:53 ... so there's no fucking noise getting in that thing.

Phil Demers 15:55 And he gave me the tour, the whole backstage tour.

Joe Rogan 15:57 Yeah.

Phil Demers 15:57 I was all back there checking shit out. I was like, "Wow, man."

Joe Rogan 15:59 It's wild, right?

Phil Demers 15:59 "This is ... Yes, he's got a serious, uh, complex there."

Joe Rogan 16:02 It's hard to appreciate, but when he first started making tanks like that which, like, again, I think I bought one of his tanks in 2005, I think, somewhere around then. Dude, it ... There was no one making anything like that. He was, he's making these super high-end, crazy fucking double-wall insulated tanks and you get in there, it's just nothing.

Phil Demers 16:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:23 Just nothing. And you just, "Whoa."

Phil Demers 16:26 And so you get swallowed into the nowhere.

Joe Rogan 16:28 You just get taken into the ... I ... This ... And it's a good place to think about the subject that we're talking about today. You ... We gotta stop doing that with dolphins and orcas. It's gonna be thought of the same way we think about slavery today. It's horri- wa- ... That it's horrific, we can't understand it, and we can't believe that compassionate human beings would be willing to isolate members of a super social, highly intelligent animal species and just put them in swimming pools. It's fucking barbaric. It's crazy. It's torture. It's, it's-

Phil Demers 17:01 And what's sad here is, you know, we, we're years removed from the documentary Blackfish.

Joe Rogan 17:05 Yeah.

Phil Demers 17:06 And, you know, that was really impactful. I mean, arguably, uh, responsible for the paradigm shift that we're, that we're experiencing here in North America, and other places of course. Um, but maybe it's time for people to revisit it. I know SeaWorld, uh, their stock is, a- and their value is sort of going up. Now, granted they ... You know, they change their numbers. They skew it. They have Free Beer Day. They pump the numbers up. You know, they have all these different promotions, whatever. I mean, everything that comes out of these, these facilities, these ... Assume it to be all bullshit, by the way. It, it's, it's all bullshit but not enough people question them on it. But as we speak while we're amidst sort of a paradigm shift here and, uh ... I mean, I can speak to it because, I mean, I'm very happy to say that we have very effectively decimated Marineland, and we'll talk more about that. But, uh, over in China this is now a burgeoning, uh, business. And I did ... We discussed this a year and a half ago and it's, it's tenfold now. It's happening very quickly. And I'm sure you're familiar with the whale jail situation in Russia. Have you seen that?

Joe Rogan 17:59 No, I have not.

Phil Demers 17:59 They've got, uh ... Enclosed in this bay they've got over 100, uh, wild-caught belugas and orcas, so there's about 10 orcas if I'm not mistaken, and, uh, some activists flew a drone over it. This got worldwide attention.... uh, lot of outcry, lot of, uh, anger, of course. Um, so what happened was-

Joe Rogan 18:23 Jamie, show it to us right now for the folks that are listening. And we're looking down at the, what looks like swimming pools with, uh, I guess those are belugas? What are those?

Phil Demers 18:32 Those have all been sold. Those are essentially sold and ready to go to China. Uh-

Joe Rogan 18:37 Jesus.

Phil Demers 18:37 But on account of the fact that the activists got this and created a real worldwide stink, um, all the negative press that came of it, uh, they've now resolved that they wanna try to... Well, they've, they've hard considered, uh, releases. Um, the governor in the area signed a intent to release agreement with the world san- uh, with the Whale Sanctuary Project, uh, who sent a team to assess the animals' health and whatnot, and this was all of, like, three weeks ago. This was not a long time ago. And they assessed that all these animals should be released. There's a couple of issues. There's a couple of things that, (sighs) that are becoming conflicting. A, it's going to require a lot of cost if it's done responsibly. B, it appears... (sighs) Okay, so what's happened is, as we know, Russia's not exactly a democratic, uh, environment. Only one person makes the decisions. On account of what becomes of these whales, whereas there were some PR stunts to say, "Hey we're gonna... We wanna release them. We wanna do this to sort of mitigate the global outrage," the captors have propagandized this entire effort to, to free these whales as a means for the West to undermine the Russia's, Russia's economy, so the whale trade economy. Here's where Marineland comes into play, in a, in a theory at this point, but it, it has these in- very intense implications. What we know about what Marineland is doing currently in their transition from brilliantly successful business to virtually decimated, thank you, um, is they're shipping their whales out. We know two, um, are going out. If it's not this week, it'll be very soon. I'll be shocked if they're not out. I'm in LA, so I can't say that it's happening right now. I think it may very, very well be happening this week. They're going to Spain. We know that five other permits have been, uh, requested to send these animals now to the States, but-

Joe Rogan 20:32 So was it they're liquidating their-

Phil Demers 20:34 The inte- Yeah, th- they're going... They're liquidating. But the issue is, if in fact Russia cat- catches wind that Marineland is sen- sending their whales, let's use the worst case scenario, to China, it validates the Russian captors' propaganda and concerns. Suddenly what we're concern is gonna happen is those animals... Suddenly Putin says, "Forget it. Sell 'em. Ship 'em out." That's, that's A scenario.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Why, why would he do that?

Phil Demers 21:03 Because, again, the, the captors have propagandized that the West wants to cripple the, Russia's economy, their, their wild whale sale economy. So if Marineland is selling whales to China from Canada-

Joe Rogan 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 21:14 ... then suddenly the captors have a point. They'll say to Putin, "Look, they're, they're selling whales. Why is it such an outrage that Russia's doing it when Marineland's doing it?"

Joe Rogan 21:21 Mm.

Phil Demers 21:22 So there's that concern. The other one, and this just came up within the last 20 hours, is it appears rather than go the most responsible route, which we know is going to be a costly endeavor, but, you know, we're game and we're ready, is, uh, they're now considering just dropping the nets and saying, "See you later."

Joe Rogan 21:42 And letting all the animals go?

Phil Demers 21:45 Here's what we suspect. They're gonna let the orcas go because they were captured illegally. Uh, there's some gray area as to whether the beluga whales have been captured illegally or not. So I think it'll probably start with the orcas. Rather than move them to where they were at the same time of year, uh, when they were captured so that they can be next to their f- po- their tran- uh, transient pods or their, their, their, um, their pods, they just wanna drop this, this net and say, "See you later."

Joe Rogan 22:14 Oh.

Phil Demers 22:14 Well, that's as irresponsible as it can get. But-

Joe Rogan 22:16 That's crazy. It's like l- making someone a slave for how many years and then-

Phil Demers 22:20 Well, it's been a year or so.

Joe Rogan 22:22 ... letting them loose somewhere on the planet.

Phil Demers 22:23 But imagine, their hope, you can imagine, would be, "Oh, see, it didn't work."

Joe Rogan 22:27 Oh, Jesus.

Phil Demers 22:28 There's a lot of... Uh, uh, there's a... This is a big issue. Uh, we're on it. There's a, there's a great, uh, team of activists over there.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Would it be accurate to say that maybe what these groups are doing right now is recognizing that there's probably gonna be some radical changes in the way these things are permitted, what's legal, what's not legal? And what people are tolerating is just not the same as it was 10 years ago?

Phil Demers 22:54 Catch 'em and sell 'em as fast as you can.

Joe Rogan 22:55 Yeah, just get out while you can, because there might come a point in time when not only could they not sell it, but they might be responsible for doing exactly what you said and bringing it back to the area where its family would be. It'd... Which would be an incredible cost. I mean-

Phil Demers 23:09 It would be an incredible cost. It would be an undertaking unlike any other rescue, uh, that we know of. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 23:15 How much would something like that cost?

Phil Demers 23:17 I can't even imagine. I mean, uh, uh, I would be the wrong person to ask. I can't put a figure on it. I just know that it would take a lot of time. Uh, there would be a lot of dedicated, uh... I mean, we would need vessels-

Joe Rogan 23:27 You'd have to track the pods. Yeah, you'd have to figure it out.

Phil Demers 23:29 You would need vessels that would be able to, to bring-

Joe Rogan 23:31 Yeah.

Phil Demers 23:31 ... the whales out. I mean-

Joe Rogan 23:32 And you'd have to be able to somehow or another get it close enough to the other whales without freaking them out.

Phil Demers 23:37 It's a whole thing, but it's possible. I mean, that's the important part.

Joe Rogan 23:41 Fuck, man. The wh- It's just one of those things that I really think as people we're gonna look back on and we're gonna go, "Man, how did we in 2019 not know that that was insane?" That i- that is not a chicken. You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's not like something you could just keep in a cage. That's... That i- (sighs)

Phil Demers 24:01 So let's back up to, uh, as you know, uh, for well over four and a half years, five years now, I've been advocating for Bill S-203, which is a ban against, uh... which is a national kind- Canada wide ban against, uh, uh, whale and dolphin and porpoise captivity, so that would include no more breeding, no more import, no more export, any of that, okay?... during these, this, this by the way is going down as the longest bill ever researched in Canadian history because there's been a lot of issues from, uh, opposition. Uh, one, one senator in particular, in fact, and if I can have a moment to just give, uh, Senator Don Plett a big ole "I win, you piece of shit" ... Can ... Which camera do I look at for that?

Joe Rogan 24:38 Uh ...

Phil Demers 24:38 "I win, you piece of shit." Sorry, I sh- I should be more humble, but-

Joe Rogan 24:41 Was that the other guy, the lawyer on the other side?

Phil Demers 24:43 This is the ... No, no, this is the senator that has put every possible, um, block in front of the passage of this bill. He's tried to kill it silently forever. I mean, this is an epic, epic story. We've had to, as activists and the community at large, and again, I have to stress how much you've had a, a hand in this, is I've had to re ... I've had to have these campaigns where we literally flood the senate servers to the point of crashing it on a s- on a couple of, uh, insta- uh, instances where they were gonna kill the bill very silently through a sort of procedure. He's got ... As, uh, hi- his role is a, i- is called the Senate Whip, so he's actually yields a lot of influence and power. He, he, uh, creates the committees where people do the studies and everything. He sets the, uh, the, the dates for the committees. I mean, he had this thing studied for like 17 straight months. It was absurd. Again, the longest tenure in, uh, in, uh, Canadian legislative history, it appears, but this guy was, you know, doing his, his, uh-

Joe Rogan 25:37 So he was-

Phil Demers 25:38 ... his best to kill it.

Joe Rogan 25:38 Do you think that ... What do you think? Like why was he doing that?

Phil Demers 25:44 He's one of these guys who looks es- at this bill and he sees it as a activist, sort of left-wing, um, liber- you know, liberal sort of fluff bill. He doesn't see that it's necessary. He went to Marineland as an invited guest. Uh, he ve- he's very, uh, publicly declared his friendships for John Hohler. I don't wanna speculate as to whether there's been any, uh, money exchanges, but I know he's certainly very interested in killing this bill. And by virtue alone of activists pressuring and exposing all of his, his efforts, we actually saved this bill on a number of occasions. Uh, the most notable of which was just a few weeks ago, where, uh, in the House of Commons, it appeared this bill was gonna die, and literally at the eleventh hour, I packed up, we drove to Ottawa. I had a tweet storm set up. We put pressure on it. I tweeted individual senators, or rather individual members of, uh, of parliament, and, uh, I promised them, and you know, this is a sensitive time in Canadian politics for Justin Trudeau, the leader of the p- of the Liberal Party. I s- I promised them, if this bill dies on account of the fact that ... Wha- what was happening was the Liberals were gonna propose amendments to the bill at the last second. That would send it back to the Senate for further review, at which point we know Don Plett was waiting in line to kill it. There was nothing we could do at this point. This was going to be his to kill. The fact that this was being fas- f- uh, facilitated by Liberals was really an infuriating thing, but nonetheless, we applied an incredible amount of pressure. I drove my ass down there. I got there and I stood in front of every which one of them, and I looked them all in the eyes, and I'm just like, "I'm gonna make you famous. I'm gonna make you famous, and I'm gonna make you famous, and I'm gonna make you famous." And, uh, I don't wanna speculate if that's what, if that's what saved the day, although it was mentioned in the House of Commons that special interests pressured them at the last second, but in a (blows out air through mouth) in a last-

Joe Rogan 27:29 Is that legal? Can you say that to someone? "I'm gonna make you famous."

Phil Demers 27:32 Mm-hmm. I think it's, uh, it's my most-

Joe Rogan 27:34 It's like, uh-

Phil Demers 27:34 ... it's my most effective tool. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:36 It's like a scene from, uh, like, um, the what's that? What was the, what was the cowboy movie where Val Kilmer played, uh, Doc Holliday, remember? Tombstone. Tombstone? Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like a line in Tombstone. Right?

Phil Demers 27:52 I'll take it as a good one.

Joe Rogan 27:52 No, you know what it's from? Uh, the one with the Bon Jovi song. You know, those, those ... You know, shot down in a blaze of glory. You know, you know those, those, uh-

Phil Demers 28:02 What is that?

Joe Rogan 28:02 ... those cute guys in the ... Was it the '80s or '90s that are all like did a western movie together? Young Guns.

Phil Demers 28:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:08 Yes! That's it. (laughs) It's from that. "I'm gonna make you famous."

Phil Demers 28:11 Oh, shit. Sorry. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:12 (laughs) I knew I had heard it from somewhere. I think it's from that.

Phil Demers 28:15 Well, I'd, I'd hoped it, I'd hoped it was my line, but nonetheless, it's what, uh-

Joe Rogan 28:18 Yeah. Remember Emilio Estevez? This was arguably the campiest, cheesiest of the cowboy movies. Eh. All right. Right? Is it the campiest? I don't- Today? I didn't see it. I don't know. They're all handsome.

Phil Demers 28:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:32 (laughs) Handsome devils. Um, sorry.

Phil Demers 28:35 So I, so I show up and-

Joe Rogan 28:36 So you show up.

Phil Demers 28:37 ... literally they, at the, right before the meeting starts, the entire, uh, committee stands up and leaves the room. We're, now we're, we're there and we're prepared for this to die. I'm there for a funeral. Uh, they come back in. The conservative members of the committee, uh, propose their amendments. The liberals which outweigh the, uh, uh, the conservatives are, you know, they're all voting, so they're just knocking these things down, knocking them down, knocking them down, and then suddenly it comes to the Liberals' time to propose, um, their amendments. First guy comes up and he says, "I'd like to withdraw my amendment," note it on the record, sits down. "Okay, we'll go to number two." "I'd like to withdraw my amendment." Sits down. "Number three, I'd like to withdraw my amendment." We're like, "Holy shit." I'm looking back. You know, I've got some, we've got some people there that, uh, obviously with the s- of, of the s- with the same interests as me, and you know, I don't even know exactly what's going on at this point. I just know that, uh, their faces are indicative that this, we might win this thing. And the fourth, uh, member of Parliament stands up and he withdraws the amendment, and we save this thing in the last second. And I absolutely know it was a pressure campaign because like I said, I was gonna come on this podcast. I'd already had this date written for some time, and this was going to have political implications that I don't know that the Liberal Party could've sustained. It's th- a really bad time. I think this came from the top down.

Joe Rogan 30:00 Mm.

Phil Demers 30:00 Whereas efforts to kill it came from the bottom up, this came from the top down. "You're not killing that bill."

Joe Rogan 30:05 I think people are understanding what dolphin captivity really is, what orca captivity really is. I think they're understanding that now, and I think it's just one of those things that exists because it's always existed. But if it didn't exist, now there's no fucking way anybody would ever let you do it.... if, if there was no captive dolphins and orcas, if someone just went around and kidnapped them, with what scientists know now about their social structure and their community, dude, they're so complex. The way they ta-... They have fucking dialects, right?

Phil Demers 30:36 It's, they have dialects. Orcas have, uh, um, they have, th- they share languages in different regions and actually have a different accent of sorts. I mean, it's, uh, it's really remarkable stuff. Yeah, right, it would be a global outrage if today, if fr-... As day one, they, someone said, "Hey, look at this thing."

Joe Rogan 30:55 Right.

Phil Demers 30:55 "Let's put this in this box." I mean, it would be absurd.

Joe Rogan 30:56 But because we have them already.

Phil Demers 30:58 Well, because we have them and there are some legacy businesses that have been around for a long time.

Joe Rogan 31:02 That's a great way of putting it.

Phil Demers 31:03 Um, you know, they have the means to fight. They know now that, "Look, this is not g- going so well." You can, you can see it in all the advertising, uh, these days. Uh, uh, SeaWorld almost rarely shows any orcas in their commercials. Although, it seems the industry is s- uh, sort of switching to baby walruses (laughs) , in f- in fact. They're v- they're, they're the new orcas, they're sort of the new brandable cute. Um-

Joe Rogan 31:26 Really?

Phil Demers 31:26 ... yeah, it really is. It's happening all over. It's happening in Canada as well. The Vancouver Aquarium is running with it. Um, yeah, and the same with SeaWorld. If you go to their, their Twitter, it's, you know, I w-... I can't say that present day it, it's, it's, like, literally the case today, but, uh, yeah, a lot of baby walrus, uh, stuff. It's where it's going. It's just they know that they can run with that, at least for s- for the time being.

Joe Rogan 31:44 Huh.

Phil Demers 31:46 What's crazy in all this is here this bill is passing. Now we know it's going to pass. It's, uh, it should be, it should get royal assent, uh, come second week of June. Uh, shy of some, some catastrophe, this thing will become law. Um, that's why Marineland is trying to get rid of these whales as quickly as they can.

Joe Rogan 32:04 Yeah.

Phil Demers 32:04 They gotta get 'em outta here, because at least now they can just... Well, it sounds like two, two, uh, export permits have been approved, so they're, so two beluga whales are going to Spain. Um, you know, now granted that's being facilitated through the Vancouver Aquarium, (sighs) this becomes an ugly mess here because when it comes to zoos, they're all part of these associations. Okay? And these are l- these are industry voices. Anything that's... If a-... Any time you're told, "Well, this is an AZA accredited facility," you know, most schools for instance or d- or general people would say, "Oh, well, it's accredited, it's a good place." No, no, no, no, no. What that means is these places facilitate, uh, tr- animal transfers and whatnot to other member facilities. It's really just a club. And this club protects, uh, the interests of these parks, and keeps any type of oversight locked. They're lobby groups, basically. So what's happened is now through the Vancouver Aquarium, Marineland... So Marineland is sending these whales to Spain, but they're claiming them to be Vancouver Aquarium, uh, uh, whales, which is not true. They were never on these animals' inventory, or rather this facility's inventory list. There's never been any knowledge of any of this. But what's happened is because Vancouver Aquarium is accredited and has an affiliation with the AZA, so in Canada we call it CAZA, the Canadian Association of Zoos and Aquarium, and Marineland is in, is in fact not, uh, they no longer have their accreditation. They did, they didn't have the best of relationships shortly after all of our revelations. Um, it's all just... Right now it's just ev-... All, uh, the industry as a whole is breaking all of its own rules to facilitate getting these beluga whales. Marineland has 51 of them. Okay? There's five born every year, but they always have 51. And they don't, they haven't shipped an orca out in nearly a decade at this point. Um, I mean, you do the math that what's going on exactly, but-

Joe Rogan 33:50 So they're dying?

Phil Demers 33:51 They always have 51. They don't ship 'em anywhere else. I can attest that, yes, uh, when I was there and in my experience, and you know you don't have to watch my words because I know Marineland's lawyer Andrew Burns is listening. Hi, Andrew. I'll see you next week. Um, in my experience, uh, yeah, you're, uh, for as many animals are born, you're just about losing as many. So you'll lose two old ones, you'll lose three young ones. Not all the ones that are born are gonna be successful, just about half are. Um, so, so what's happening now is the industry wants that bloodline. There's 51 captive orcas. Whereas, you know, there's a lot of controversy in importing animals from other places. The states can't... In fact, they can't bring them in from Russia without a public consult period. It might still be the case with Canada. So actually the public might actually be consulted, uh, about the import of these five belugas that, um, Marineland is seeking permit for to export. So that's something that certainly as an activist level I'll be, I'll be, you know, helping to, uh, guide towards the proper resolution. But, yeah, that's all happening. It is a race right now to g- to get rid of Marineland's animals. And, uh, (laughs) man, it is a wild time. It's- it's a wild time to be inside the doors at Marineland, as I can imagine, and in the fences. Uh, and it's, it's a most wild time for me to be on the outside because I've never in the last six and a half years of, of litigation and just of my advocacy and being sort of in a, up, you know, basically being engaged in war with Marineland, I've never seen them w- work harder to suppress me and to try to silence me than they are now. Uh, uh, as breaking news just today, Marineland had built this fence, aptly named Phil's Fence, around the park and just today we found out they blacked it all out with tarps, because come, uh, this Saturday, uh, May 18th, and certainly I'm inviting everyone to come join me. Uh, I'll be joining as an, as a guest, uh, a big demonstration outside of Marineland and we're gonna protest it, uh, as they're an-... as they're anticipating because on account of my coming on this show, they worked very hard to try to keep me from, A, coming, B, speaking of anything, C, certainly not promoting this event. So I certainly hope that this event is a, is a, is a well-attended-

Joe Rogan 36:04 How did they try to do that?

Phil Demers 36:06 Well, because we're in litigation, what happens at, in litigation is you come to a point where you start to negotiate. And so there's things that they want from me. There's things they really want from me. They want my silence.... the problem is that they're never gonna silence me. It's not an option. I've said it before, I'll say it again, they can offer me a million dollars to shut up and go away. It's not gonna happen. I'm not gonna delete my Twitter. I'm not gonna delete any of my tweets that have the word Marineland in them.

Joe Rogan 36:46 Is this a request?

Phil Demers 36:48 These, this is layers and layers, and there have been layers of requests. Basically, they'd hoped that I wouldn't come here. They'd hoped something could be worked out. In our litigation, we have, uh, so now, I, I chased Marineland. So back when Marineland's owner was still alive, uh, I put forth a huge campaign to try to get him to be examined legally by my lawyer, much like I've, uh, had to sort of submit myself to. Um, but as these lawsuits, and as, as litigation continues to reveal itself as just a perfect method of abuse, you know that they're just... The only resolve these things appear to serve is to exhaust both parties and have them come together with a resolution. So after six and a half years, uh, Marineland seems intent on a resolution. They don't wanna go to examinations. So while we were in... So while I was there to be examined a couple of weeks ago, my lawyer said, "Take a walk," and the two lawyers began their talks. We put off the examination because we believed there could be some good faith that could be shown between parties. Um, it became quite evident that it was not the case. And when we re- were to resume our examinations, which was to be last week, Marineland, on account to the fact that I was coming on this show, threw an absolute tirade and said, "We are not doing this." Now, bear in mind, this is a court-ordered examination date. I've got a, uh, a trial, uh, coordinator who is trying to nudge this thing forward because, I mean, that's something, that's a, that's a motion I had to win in the litigation itself, is to try to get someone to look at this thing so that it could actually move forward. Like, "Let's get someone to manage it." So we're, we're in case management. So that case management judge has issued a very aggressive schedule. It's... In, back in February, we had a court date of which, thank you very much, I won, uh, handedly. Marineland had to pick up, uh, just a little more than $12,000 of my legal bill, which is really, uh, on this particular motion, in this event, uh, kind of a drop in the pan. But, um, nonetheless, a, a, a, a, a sound victory in court. Um, you know, we have a case conference call next week now.

Joe Rogan 38:58 Yup.

Phil Demers 38:58 I don't know where this stands because now Marineland has breached the court's order. So we went. They didn't show up to the examination. I got, uh, a fourth, uh, what's called a, um, certificate of non-attendance. It means the person that was supposed to be examined that day didn't show up. Uh, Marineland's owner, John Hohler, who has now passed away, uh, didn't show up to two of his, his examinations knowing full well that I'd have to pick up the 1,700 bucks to ca- to, just to be there to get the certificate, and he's just not gonna show up, no big deal. There doesn't seem to be any punitive damage at their end. They, they, uh... I mean, we're almost seven years into this thing and they're still, like, brutalizing me. But we're at a point where they're actually in a very uncomfortable position of having to keep this thing. If you don't want this litigation to be on the public record, and transcripts, and evidence, and everything, you have to stop it. It seems to me the courts, uh, appear to facilitate resolutions of that sort. They like settlements. I was promised a trial on day one. It's what kept me going. They're lying about me. They're lying about everything, everything they're saying.

Joe Rogan 40:01 And they're trying to exhaust you financially?

Phil Demers 40:03 Well, of course they are. I mean, that's the, so, so the, uh, the premise is-

Joe Rogan 40:05 And are you counter-suing them as well?

Phil Demers 40:07 I'm counter-suing. The premise of my counter-suit is so that they couldn't merely drop my d- my, the lawsuit against me over a period of time, and then that just be it. And that I would, I would then have to actually file a motion to get some costs back. I'd be lucky to get 50% and everything. Uh, in the early days, my lawyer said, "Let's sue them back." And so we did. I'm suing them for abuse of process. They're, they're using the court's time, resources. Uh, they s- I mean, even for that matter, we can extend that to the police and other, uh, you know, d- uh, departments and organizations. Uh, they're exhausting, uh, these things, uh, in bad faith. They're doing it because they just wanna try to... Basically, they wanna take away my right to, uh, free expression, which is a Canadian chartered right. I mean, I'm protecting my own history here. I mean, this is insanity. I can't even believe that after six and a half years, I'm still here at risk of being silenced, that the fact that... Uh, I mean, look, full disclosure, I'm out of money. The last time I was on this show, we raised... I mean, and again, thank you so much. 60, or maybe almost 70,000? That's in a year and a half. That's gone. I spent my last penny last month. It was a very aggressive last three months.

Joe Rogan 41:14 Do you have a GoFundMe?

Phil Demers 41:15 I have a GoFundMe. Uh, yes, of course.

Joe Rogan 41:16 Give out the information.

Phil Demers 41:17 Yes, please. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:18 What is it?

Phil Demers 41:18 It's, uh... If you go to SaveSmooshi.com, S-A-V-E-S-M-O-O-S-H-I.com, you can go there. There's a small documentary. It's a little dated now, but on account to the fact that legislation... Nothing's really moved forward in the lawsuit and the legislation's only just wrapping up. It's still very current, so please spend the 14 minutes to sort of, uh, appreciate the story more. I guess you'll get a better, uh, more context to it. There's, you know, some, some footage in there, some back, uh, backstage stuff, some per-... You know, it, it tells the tale quite well. It's a, it's a, it's a good piece.

Joe Rogan 41:48 Yeah. Folks, if you're, if you're hearing this, please help it out if you can.

Phil Demers 41:52 You know, Joe, I say it all the time. It, it's the thing I hate to do most is ask for help.

Joe Rogan 41:56 I understand.

Phil Demers 41:56 It really makes me f-

Joe Rogan 41:58 Well, your intentions are pure. You know, you really are, uh, a person who is going about this because you feel like you are uniquely qualified to talk about it. You have the actual information. You know what's wrong. You kn- you, you know, and you were part of the system. You understand it better than anybody on the outside could.

Phil Demers 42:16 And they have- and they have my walrus.

Joe Rogan 42:18 And they have your walrus still, we think, we hope.

Phil Demers 42:20 And so when, and so when... In the litigation, my lawyer says, uh..."Well, here's what Marineland is prepared to offer." I say to my lawyer, "But what about the walrus?" And he says to me, "Dude, we talked about this. This is crazy. You're not getting a walrus." And I said to Marineland, "I don't want no money, not a penny. I want the walrus." There's two left. Uh, three have died in the last, r- really, in mere months. Uh, secretly, I find out-

Joe Rogan 42:51 What would you do with her?

Phil Demers 42:53 I mean, ideally what I would like is... I just want her transferred at this point to another facility. I would love to see her transferred to the Vancouver Aquarium or there's a facility in Quebec as well. I just wanna be a pos- I just want to possibly be in her life. I- If she needs me, which we... I mean, there's a reason she's one of two still alive.

Joe Rogan 43:09 Would you move?

Phil Demers 43:09 I- I... If... I would've come... Listen.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Would you move to Vancouver?

Phil Demers 43:12 I- If suddenly Dan Bilzerian gets on the horse. He's finally got this, uh...

Joe Rogan 43:15 I'm moved. (laughs)

Phil Demers 43:17 (laughs) Well, actually, I... Uh, well, wait, there's a backstory to that too. I actually got some beef with him inadvertently, but we'll, we'll get back to that. But, you know, if he were to, to suddenly say, "Hey, I got this, uh, arctic beachfront home and, uh... Dude, I'll buy you a walrus." Yeah, I'll move, absolutely. I mean, she's got another 10 years of her life. Uh, dude, I... There's only one way I want this story-

Joe Rogan 43:34 You would move to the Arctic to be with this walrus? Play the music.

Phil Demers 43:37 Is there a better end to this, to this story?

Joe Rogan 43:39 (laughs)

Phil Demers 43:39 I mean, really. I- It all sounds so crazy, Joe, but here's six, six and a half years ago, I was like-

Joe Rogan 43:44 Now.

Phil Demers 43:44 ... "I want the walrus."

Joe Rogan 43:45 Right.

Phil Demers 43:46 Suddenly here I am negotiating for a walrus. Call me crazy, but look at this.

Joe Rogan 43:48 So are they willing to negotiate for the walrus? Is this actually in consideration?

Phil Demers 43:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yes.

Phil Demers 43:54 But not without layers and layers and layers of compromise.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Of course.

Phil Demers 43:58 And... But bear in mind, not in the capacity that I see it, more of a, "Yeah, maybe. Maybe we won't send her to China. How's that? Maybe we'll send her somewhere and not deter that facility from, uh, you visiting. Maybe we could do that for you." That's what... I mean, it's, it's really bad faith negotiat- The problem with... The thing that I have a hard time dealing with is, look, we're in litigation. In, you know, in, in litigation, you have to exercise a certain amount of decorum. And it's not exactly my strong point. It's just not. I find decorum to be just a thick layer of bullshit. I just do.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yeah.

Phil Demers 44:34 You wanna hope that there's gonna be some type of good faith negotiation. I, I, I want that. Marineland negotiates with additional hostilities and threats. It's not worked for them in six and a half years. What makes you think it's gonna work now? So here, I think we're going down a path of possibly good, uh, good faith negotiations. The, the owner, the, the villain of the story is gone. He's out of the picture. Uh, the, the new president who is the, the widow, the wife, is a wonderful woman. I mean, listen, if... I, I honestly and truly believe if the lawyer himself wasn't the controlling mind of the business now, uh, he's sort of facilitating this transfer of, of, of the business as it was to just being sold off, pieced off, and, and, you know, distribute the wealth to the, to the remaining family members. I think that we could... I think this story ends on a good note. I mean, I have no hostilities. You know, I have every reason in the world to despise the man who sued me. And I don't. I don't even think about him. It was never about that. They made every case in the world, every argument that this was personal between me and him. And-

Joe Rogan 45:35 But that's 'cause you look in the camera and say "fuck you" to people.

Phil Demers 45:37 It's personal between me and Don Plett. You can bet your ass.

Joe Rogan 45:39 (laughs)

Phil Demers 45:40 That's a different story. (laughs) But you know what I'm saying?

Joe Rogan 45:43 Did I make him famous?

Phil Demers 45:44 Well, you've made him famous in a way.

Joe Rogan 45:45 (laughs) In a way, yeah.

Phil Demers 45:46 Maybe, maybe.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Um, so where do you stand right now?

Phil Demers 45:52 Well, I don't know. So next week, we're having a case management, uh... The case manager is gonna talk and we're gonna see what becomes of Marineland's once again skipped examination.

Joe Rogan 46:01 It's so hard to believe this is still going on.

Phil Demers 46:03 Dude, welcome to my fucking world.

Joe Rogan 46:04 From the, from the time you first came on the podcast to now, this has been just this scratch and claw.

Phil Demers 46:11 Every day of my life, I live with this looming, uh, cloud of, uh, threat. Of like there's people out there that really want me... I'm not talking physical threat, okay? They, they did, they played their games. You know, I called every one of their bluffs every, at, in, at every corner of this thing. But, you know, there's something about someone-

Joe Rogan 46:31 When you say they played their games, like there was-

Phil Demers 46:33 Oh, they sent goons to my house.

Joe Rogan 46:34 Yeah.

Phil Demers 46:34 There's a video, in fact, that there's, on that documentary, you'll see these. They sent some tough guys. I mean, they were sending people at 6:00 AM harassing my girlfriend while she's taking the garbage out. I mean, it, it really got pretty intense. Um, but we stood our ground. I was like, "This is not gonna go down like this." It's like, "You're fucking with the wrong guy, dude." Like, listen, I come from a place called Welland, Ontario. I don't know that you're familiar with it. I'm gonna assume not. Probably few people are, unless you're an avid hockey fan, because we have produced some pretty, uh, amazing, uh, NHL talent. But, um, you know, this population of like 50,000. I'm a Wellander. I don't know any other... And I'm a Frenchman. I mean, that's probably another thing to stress, but I don't know any other way to deal with things other than to sort of fight it out. You know? You don't cower and run. You don't... You know, you stare the threat, especially when you're on the right side of things. I'm not gonna sit there and take shit. I'm not gonna... It's not gonna work for them to continuously try to threaten me because, dude, I'm invested. And I'm not talking money. I'm in a... It's like a hostage situation. It's how it started. My only interest is ending the hostage situation. That not my only interest. I shouldn't say that. Of course not. You know, I have interests in s- in, in... You know, I've been advocating for the, for bills and ob- obviously advocating, um, letting people know that... You know, sort of taking the veil off the bullshit, uh, that the industry reports to be-

Joe Rogan 47:53 But you feel like you're negotiating for a hostage in Smushy.

Phil Demers 47:58 They're, they're using her as that type of chip.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Yeah.

Phil Demers 48:04 That's their bar- That's their bargaining chip.

Joe Rogan 48:06 Right.

Phil Demers 48:06 That's what they got.

Joe Rogan 48:07 And they're keeping this constant pressure on you, this constant financial pressure.

Phil Demers 48:11 Additional threats, uh, constant...

Joe Rogan 48:13 Yeah.

Phil Demers 48:13 Like, it... My lawyer, in fact, and this is where it gets kind of weird because, listen, I don't understand. He's supposed to be representing me. The answer is no to everything. Fight, fight, fight. I want a trial. He instead is coming with, "Listen, this is not how litigation ends, Phil. Like you don't seem to understand how this ends. You don't have a grip of how li- l- litigation works." And I'm just like, "I'm glad that I don't, because my guess is I'm a representative of about 90% of the population that don't know. And it's important that we find out." I was promised a trial because they said I was this, this, this, this, this. Well, let's get to that fucking trial. This is what I've been doing. This doesn't end with negotiations.

Joe Rogan 48:44 Yeah.

Phil Demers 48:44 I want the trial.

Joe Rogan 48:45 Yeah.

Phil Demers 48:45 I don't understand. Like, what, why would you sue me unless you want the trial? Oh, because it's a bullshit lawsuit. Well then, I want the trial because I need to show that. I need that on my record. I want that. I want the truth. They fucked with the wrong guy. (laughs) I hate to say it, I'm the on- of all the lawsuits they've launched, and they launched in, in, you know, in excess of like 12, and threatened... And, and it's important to note, I've been threatened and I'm constantly under threat of additional litigation. I'm the only one left, and the only lawsuit that's... I'm the only person who hasn't had to compromise, uh, their free expression. It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 49:21 It's a dirty secret about the legal business, right?

Phil Demers 49:23 That's a-

Joe Rogan 49:24 That this is a loophole. This is something people can do to people to silence them, just to drag them through hell for six years.

Phil Demers 49:30 Maybe 10. Who knows how long this goes.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Maybe 10. Right. Who knows?

Phil Demers 49:33 And this is a case managed. I mean, I had to fight in court at great expenditure to get this case management.

Joe Rogan 49:38 And if you put this up to the general public and have them look at what the actual facts are, and have them look at what these people, what their business is, what they're actually doing-

Phil Demers 49:48 It's game over.

Joe Rogan 49:49 It's game over. It's a real problem for them. The real problem is it's an indefensible activity. Having those animals in swimming pools for people's enjoyment, like, to... (sighs)

Phil Demers 50:03 But to follow that up with trying to crush people.

Joe Rogan 50:05 Oh, yeah.

Phil Demers 50:06 Trying to crush my fiscal sovereignty. I mean, look-

Joe Rogan 50:08 No, there's nothing good on their side.

Phil Demers 50:09 I-

Joe Rogan 50:09 For what they tried to do to you, for what the business is, it's all bad.

Phil Demers 50:12 I'd like to operate in full, uh, sort of transparency because look, I'm, I guess I'm sort of sponsored by the public, so I feel like a level of, uh, transparency in all this. But, you know, I had a little bit of money. I'd won a TV show called Wipeout, and I had 50,000 Canadian dollars tax-free in the bank, which I sat on because I didn't know precisely what it is I was gonna do with it, and I felt like there was a potential of a rainy day around the corner. You know, it took that and the first six months to, six months to, to hire lawyers for everybody. Everyone that was getting sued, I was cutting, you know, $5,000 retainers for going, "There's a purpose for this money. I only have it because I got on the show because of my relationship with the walrus." So I, I'm in for a good chunk of change here. Uh, it's crazy the lengths of which and the ability corporations have to destroy individuals. The fact that the court is there to facilitate it is precisely why I want to go to trial. I've been told the figures are, and please don't quote me on it, I'd love the facts, but I've been told that something in the area of like 90% of lawsuits get settled without going to discovery. Well, I wanna be, I wanna be the 10% or less. I want, I want a resolution by the, by the judge. I can sleep at night if the judge says, "Okay, it ends with this. Phil, you get, uh, $50,000 of your, at this point, in excess of $200,000 in legal bills, and Marineland, you lost. So, you know, you, you gotta eat the shame and walk away." I would assume... Be more comfortable with that than if Marineland said, "Here's $100,000. Don't talk about the, um..." I mean, e- let's say in the best con- scenario they said, "Here's a chunk of change, let's, let's just use $100,000." And said, uh, "Just don't talk about the terms of the settlement, but other than that you have no impeded speech, you can just be free." I would be more comfortable with the judge's decision than that 100K because then at least I know exactly what it is that I went through. I, the world can find out what function these courts have and what their version of justice is. I mean, I, I'm just still... I'm trying not to be jaded because obviously it's a heavy load to carry as, in your day-to-day. It's, uh, you know, I've been on the cusp of crazy. Um, I'm thankful for plant medicine for sort of keeping me, uh, grounded and keeping me in, uh, with the proper perspective, but-

Joe Rogan 52:28 Plant medicine? Listen you, hippie.

Phil Demers 52:30 Yeah, well... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:34 (laughs)

Phil Demers 52:34 They do try to call me hippie a lot too, that's interesting.

Joe Rogan 52:36 (laughs)

Phil Demers 52:36 I mean... Probably a little bit of a, of a different version of hippie, I suppose.

Joe Rogan 52:41 Yeah, I mean-

Phil Demers 52:41 I mean, I don't mind war. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:43 Well, you're, um, you're a guy who cares about these marine mammals.

Phil Demers 52:47 That walrus is like my daughter, dude. It sounds crazy.

Joe Rogan 52:50 I believe you, man. I believe you.

Phil Demers 52:51 I hate to stress it, but it's just-

Joe Rogan 52:51 I know.

Phil Demers 52:52 ... as soon as you consider that factor you're just like, "Dude, that, he's got, they've got your daughter. That's a mess."

Joe Rogan 52:56 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 52:56 Just try to put yourself in the perspective that if they had your dog, your neighbor's got your dog in his, uh, well it was unin- unimpededly, uh, uh, by your definition abusing or neglecting their life, and you're there to just watch silently. I mean, that's disgusting.

Joe Rogan 53:09 Yeah.

Phil Demers 53:09 That's a disgusting scenario. This is the poison that I live with. I, I-

Joe Rogan 53:14 (sighs)

Phil Demers 53:14 I need, I need a proper closure. I'm relying on there being a level of justice so that one day I can live in this world without being just that old, jaded dude. Look, last time I was here I was not nearly this fucking gray, like... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:30 Well-

Phil Demers 53:30 I'm starting to feel the effects of long-term litigation.

Joe Rogan 53:33 You don't have a podcast, do you?

Phil Demers 53:34 I want to do a podcast, I'm urged to do a podcast, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:37 Who's urging you?

Phil Demers 53:38 Well, people. You know, they just, you know, "Phil, you really should have a podcast, do a podcast, do..." And I, and I have given it quite a bit of thought.

Joe Rogan 53:42 It'd be a real simple thing for you to do.

Phil Demers 53:44 I know, I, I'm running out of excuses.

Joe Rogan 53:45 And you got a lot to say and you're a great talker.

Phil Demers 53:48 Thanks, Joe, I appreciate that, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:49 Why don't you do it?

Phil Demers 53:51 I am considering it, yeah. I really am.

Joe Rogan 53:52 People get mad at me that I keep suggesting that people get podcasts. They're like, "Stop, bro. Stop doing that."

Phil Demers 53:57 You know, you said to me when we were in Toronto at dinner, you said-

Joe Rogan 53:59 What?

Phil Demers 53:59 ... "You should be a comedian." I said, "Ah, I've heard that before." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:02 You could be a comedian, for sure.

Phil Demers 54:03 No- uh, what's funny 'cause I've heard you mention that on the show a number of times too, I've imagined.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Yeah, that too I've said to people.

Phil Demers 54:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:07 Well, there's so few of us. On... There's more podcasters than there are comedians, for sure. Like it's not even close. There's like, um, I think there's more than 600,000 podcasts now on iTunes. So yeah, there's not 600,000 comics.

Phil Demers 54:23 There's like, that's a big pool to wade in, you know? But I mean, I'm in d- I, I'm indifferent.

Joe Rogan 54:26 Yeah, but-

Phil Demers 54:26 If I did it, it would be for my own purposes, you know, I, I would be comfortable-

Joe Rogan 54:29 But there's categories.

Phil Demers 54:30 Of course.

Joe Rogan 54:30 And for someone new, I guess you'd probably be in... Is conservation a category, or wildlife, or something like that? You know, uh, you would, you would launch pretty quickly.

Phil Demers 54:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:40 And it would be fascinating for people to... Did, have you ever, um, heard like one of the really well-produced, uh, NPR podcasts like, uh, The Dropout? Was it an NP... Did NPR do The Dropout? The one on Elizabeth Holmes and the Theranos controversy, the blood scanning stuff?Anyway, it's, uh, an amazing multi-part series that describes how these people made this phony blood testing technology and sold it and made millions of dollars and was ... They were worth, valued at billions and now they're literally virtually worth nothing. So, it was by ABC Radio. That's who did it.

Phil Demers 55:18 Nightline.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Nightline, that's what it was. ABC News Nightline. But, something like that could ... If someone wanted to follow this and, and document it from the beginning in a podcast form, this is something that really could be like six one-hour episodes.

Phil Demers 55:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:35 If you were talking about your history with training orcas, what you thought it was when you first got in ... And we went into that in several of the o- other episodes. But think about this, me, you and I have talked now ... How many times have you been on now?

Phil Demers 55:47 This is my fourth.

Joe Rogan 55:48 Okay. So each time's been like three hours. So, all those, all those hours of discussion, if someone ... If you condense that into your story, I think it would be super compelling. And then you could also update people on the case, you could update people on the state of marine mammal captivity legislation and, and ... Because there are countries that are right now waking up and realizing this is crazy. Like this is real- almost like human slavery. It's like finding aliens and just keeping them in, in a cage somewhere.

Phil Demers 56:22 I mean, the timing's right. I don't doubt that. So ... Yeah. I mean, it-

Joe Rogan 56:24 It's perfect.

Phil Demers 56:25 A- again, with the looming litigation, I do get a little bit sort of, uh, tongue-shy because this is just gonna be ... (sighs) I'll be sued again, man. (laughs) It kind of freaks me out.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Yeah.

Phil Demers 56:34 I- I really ... What ... You know, it's the same premise of writing a book. It's like, "Great, write a book." But it's like I can't do anything with it because I'll be sued, I'll be sued again, see.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Yeah.

Phil Demers 56:41 It's a virtual guarantee. Now, the, the, the, the, the bright side is it seems to me like, uh, Marineland is not going to be around for terribly lo- a terribly long time. Once they're dissolved, oh, you bet your ass I got lots to talk about. I mean, I would love if I could speak of everything without having to sort of watch ... You know, I- I really do have to keep from saying a lot of stuff, um, not on account of it being illegal, but just on account of the fact that it will f- it'll virtually guarantee me additional hostilities and, you know, legal issues.

Joe Rogan 57:17 Yeah. You know what can I ... I could completely understand.

Phil Demers 57:19 I kind of can't do it. So-

Joe Rogan 57:19 I completely understand. Yeah.

Phil Demers 57:20 I do look forward to that day when I'm sort of free and unencumbered and just can just be fucking me again, you know?

Joe Rogan 57:26 Yeah. Well, if you're in that business right now, you gotta be looking at the future going, "We gotta get out. We gotta get out before they take us out."

Phil Demers 57:32 That's precisely what's happening. So, the speculation is, uh, Marineland's lawyer is now the sole controlling mind and he ... That's precisely what his job is, to transition this from ... We know that they've sold property. They sold the golf course, they sold the campground. Uh, we know now that they're, they're, uh, I'll say, I'll use the word "selling". It might not be the right term because Marineland claims there'll be no financial, uh, exchanges, but, uh, you know, that- that's yet to be seen. Um, yeah. The writing's on the wall. They're gonna be gone. I don't think the wife has any interest what ... I mean, she's, she's pushing 70-something.

Joe Rogan 58:08 She probably doesn't want to be a part of this.

Phil Demers 58:10 But she's never really had a heavy hand in it. I mean, she had her, she had ... She sort of took care of the cash business aspect of it. She sort of ... She had her role in it, but it wasn't like a management position making decisions on animals' health, importing/exporting, things like this. Like, it's just beyond her.

Joe Rogan 58:23 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 58:23 So what- what- what we've been told is that, uh, Marineland's owner in his final days, there's a wish list. This is what happens to the park. This is what happens with this. This is what happens with this. And you can bet your ass that there is something about a walrus and there's something about me in there. What it is, at least that I know of right now, is obviously hostilities 'til the end. I think that what's happening is the lawyer is fulfilling, uh, John Holder's wishes with me. I think it's, I think it's in the books that he can't just end this thing or ... I don't know.

Joe Rogan 59:01 (sighs)

Phil Demers 59:01 It's, it's a very precarious time.

Joe Rogan 59:03 The guy's dead.

Phil Demers 59:03 I know.

Joe Rogan 59:04 The guy's dead. Let it go, folks.

Phil Demers 59:05 The lawyer doesn't like me.

Joe Rogan 59:07 We can't be in the same room.

Phil Demers 59:08 Of course, you talk a lot of shit, bro. Look, you know what he actually said?

Joe Rogan 59:11 You just stared at the camera, told him to go fuck himself or whatever you said.

Phil Demers 59:14 That's gonna be in court documents. I didn't say that. I said that to senator, but he'll run with that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:18 Oh, sorry.

Phil Demers 59:18 That's okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:18 Will it be in court documents?

Phil Demers 59:20 Oh, he's watching. He's listening. I mean, uh, I- I sort of half hope that he sues you, Joe. I hate to say that but I sort of half hope.

Joe Rogan 59:25 Shut the fuck up, bro.

Phil Demers 59:26 Sorry, dude. Sorry, dude. I- I don't wish that on my best of friends, but man, would that s- (laughs) That would be something. It's not gonna happen, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 59:35 How the fuck do you know it's not gonna happen? Y- now you're just talking shit. You just put it out there, man. It's bad juju.

Phil Demers 59:39 No, it's not gonna happen. We talked about this last time too.

Joe Rogan 59:41 I think that what they do in terms of that business, for their own sake, they should stop. For everyone that's profiting off that, you've got to find an exit strategy. And I don't just mean Marineland. I mean anyone who understands my language that's, that's hearing my words, you should stop. This is not the future. This is ... You can't do that anymore. This is going, you ... This is going to look horrible just a few years from now where people who've seen Blackfish, people who do understand what those things are, the more we find out about dolphins and orcas, the more we understand them, it's gonna be more and more. It's not like, "Oh, wait a minute. We just did some tests. We found out ..." They're- they're like crabs, bro. They're dumb as fuck.

Phil Demers 1:00:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Like, you could just eat 'em. (laughs) That's not gonna happen, man. We're more and more impressed with them the more we study them.

Phil Demers 1:00:33 I am more than happy to negotiate with Marineland that rather than signing any type of non-disparagement, because I don't want my speech virtually locked in a, uh, in a, in a legal document. Um, I'm a forgiving person. I don't need ... I'm only responding in kind to their hostilities. They come at me with war. I bring it back. I- I don't want to. I have to.

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 Yeah.

Phil Demers 1:00:58 I take it right back up to where they bring it. Then they do this. I gotta do this. Then they do this. I'm like, "What are you fucking thinking?"It's like if they would just dia- just dial it back, I can be a happy, smiley, not chirping Marineland guy. I don't have to be... I don't have to do that. I've done what I've had to, to be where I am. The man who was... who created this scenario is gone. We don't need the hostilities anymore. So, what is the lawyer's motives exactly? I don't know. But I can assure you, now that they've blacked out the fence, they- they're doing everything they can to suppress, uh, our information. They've bought up all the billboards in, uh... all the available billboards in Niagara Falls, so that they've got Marineland signs. Because, you know, we have put up... Like as activists, activists have put up billboards. Uh, one of which was, like, right at the entrance of Marineland last year. It was a thing of beauty. So they, you know, they bought all these things up. They really don't want bad PR right now. My guess is trying to get rid of the animals, mitigate the PR losses because there's already a- a sound foundation of it, of bad PR, and sell the property, get rid of it all. And I think, you know, they're trying to fast track an accreditation so that they can facilitate animal, uh, uh, movements and whatnot. My greatest weapon right now, unfortunately, is that I can assure them a great deal of, uh, of financial risk. I have and I certainly can, and am right now. They need to take that into consideration. When you consider the price of a walrus, and let's just use the number 100,000, which is a grossly inflated number for a walrus, and let's say Marineland were to say, hypothetically, "Well, why would we give you a $100,000 asset when it's gonna cost us less than that just to finish this litigation? And we'll owe you 25K at the end or some shit. Why, why would we do that? It doesn't make sense." And I say to them, "It's because I'm gonna make that walrus cost you tens of millions. Consider that. Lose the hostilities, I'll make you guys heroes. We can do that too." The nar- this narrative doesn't have to continue. The narrative of war can end with, with the dead owner. It, it could have ended, but...

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 Well, they're all invested in it. And one of the things about lawsuits, it's like people, when they get started, there's a game going on. You're trying to win, you're trying to win, trying to get the other side to cave. I mean, this is a lot of what this is all. And obviously, you've taken this very personally. This is all a part of you now.

Phil Demers 1:03:13 Can I explain something really messed up?

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Yeah.

Phil Demers 1:03:16 I now... Because we're coming to an end, the, you know, the law that I've been advocating for is going to pass. Um, this lawsuit is going to end. The animals will... I mean, we're gonna find out what's gonna happen to them in, in the, in the near future. We already know what's, what's becoming of some. Um, I don't know what it's gonna be like to live without a lawsuit. Once the prospect of not-

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 It's gonna be nice, bro. You're gonna be on the beach with your feet up.

Phil Demers 1:03:42 When the prospect came round of me not having one anymore, that's not how I saw it. It's weird. I'm oddly-

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 Can I see it too?

Phil Demers 1:03:50 ... strangely addicted and married to a fucking lawsuit. I can't see past it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 Yeah, you'll be fine. Listen, we'll get you through. You need more of that plant medicine, son.

Phil Demers 1:03:59 I know. I took a look at that bag right there and it says insane.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 (laughs)

Phil Demers 1:04:00 I'm like, "Yeah. No, that's about right."

Joe Rogan 1:04:02 That's BeReal stuff. That stuff will put you on the, the planet that's outside Pluto that we haven't discovered yet.

Phil Demers 1:04:07 And I see you've got the Tyson Ranch box there.

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 Oh, yeah, man. I got a Tyson Ranch box. He hooked me up. And then that big box is from... What, what is the company that gave us the big box?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:04:17 Uh, it was Speed Weed that helped, but it's-

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 Right.

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:04:19 ... like it, uh... I think the XTRAXX company, ABX XTRAXX, or I'm not sure who. I honestly don't know.

Phil Demers 1:04:25 We should shout out that company.

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:04:26 There's a couple different things in there.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 I had... I was elbow deep in all those boxes, by the way.

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:04:29 That's the most up-to-date. Speed Weed, they're the best and they're, they're fucking... They brought me a war chest. So, get in there.

Phil Demers 1:04:35 I'm actually gonna be on, uh, on Tyson's podcast tomorrow.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Are you really?

Phil Demers 1:04:38 Yeah. I'm stoked.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Oh, that's amazing.

Phil Demers 1:04:39 I was supposed to do it yesterday and I was kind of stoked, and then it, it got postponed to Thursday and I'm, I'm real... In what world am I sitting down smoking a bunch of weed with Mike Tyson? Well, it's the one that was created on account of these crazy decisions that I've made. The fact alone that we've come together like this. Dude, I'm talking with, with Whitney who's, you know, she, she says to you that I'm her... A hero. And I'm like, "She's my fucking hero, man." Like, I say it-

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 That crazy lady drove all the way to Texas with a fucking pig. She tried to, like, help this pig out that she found (laughs) . She fed the pig and then drove all the way to Texas with it.

Phil Demers 1:05:13 I love her level of crazy. I think it's just fucking perfect. It fits-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Yeah.

Phil Demers 1:05:17 ... exactly what this needs. Uh, and again, I'm blessed that you, that you sort of, uh, turned her on to, to me. And I know she was, she was looking to have a conversation with you, um, with regards to some legislation with, uh, dolphins and whale captivity and whatnot.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Mm-hmm.

Phil Demers 1:05:30 And you sort of steered her in my direction.

Joe Rogan 1:05:31 Yeah.

Phil Demers 1:05:32 Let me touch on the Dan Bilzerian thing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 So-

Phil Demers 1:05:34 I heard... Is he coming here on... in May? Is that right?

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 On the podcast?

Phil Demers 1:05:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 Not that I know of.

Phil Demers 1:05:38 Okay. Someone had said to me, "Oh, oh, I hear Dan Bilzerian's gonna be on the podcast."

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 He's been on before, though.

Phil Demers 1:05:41 Yeah, I know that he has.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 He was on once.

Phil Demers 1:05:43 I thought that he was coming on sooner. That kind of made me nervous 'cause, uh, so-

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Why?

Phil Demers 1:05:46 A couple weeks ago, Whitney's like just, just drilling Dan Bilzerian on Instagram for having this polar bear, right? There's this video of a polar bear at a fucking party and he's feeding it. She's just... She's-

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 What? He had a polar bear at a party? (laughs)

Phil Demers 1:05:59 Yeah. No. It was like a big... It was a big brown bear, like grizzly. It was a big grizzly bear at a party.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 Really?

Phil Demers 1:06:03 Yeah. On a, you know, electric fence around and everything else. So, she's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Where was he?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:06:07 At his house.

Phil Demers 1:06:07 Probably one of his crazy-

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 At his house?

Phil Demers 1:06:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 He had a fu- Oh, Jesus, Dan Bilzerian. What the fuck, bro?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:06:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 Oh, my God. He had a fucking brown bear at his house. Look at the size of that thing. Oh, my God. I'm getting anxiety. Did he ever see the fucking... What was the...

Phil Demers 1:06:26 Yeah, the bear dude who's like ugh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 What was the... Yeah, yeah. The one where the bear ripped the guy's throat apart.

Phil Demers 1:06:30 That was the one in a movie too, wasn't it? Wasn't-

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 No, the bear was in a movie. The bear was in a football movie. What was that movie?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:06:35 Basketball, in the, uh, with, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 It was a basketball?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:06:38 Well, I think he's been in a few movies, but with, uh, Will Ferrell, where they just play him basketball and he like wrestled him in the middle of the basketball game.

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Was that the bear?

Guest (unidentified, brief contributor) 1:06:45 Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Well, there was a bear that had been in movies and had done stunts in movies. And this guy... The video was awful 'cause the guy is literally just standing there.

Phil Demers 1:06:55 Yeah. I've seen it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 And the bear just goes up to him and just decides to attack. It rips his throat out-

Phil Demers 1:07:00 Like that.

Joe Rogan 1:07:00 ... in a second.

Phil Demers 1:07:01 It's exactly that video minus the this.

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Yeah.

Phil Demers 1:07:03 Which can happen at any freaking time, only you got 45 girls in the back, scantily clad, waiting to get fucking-

Joe Rogan 1:07:08 Easily could it happen. And then what's really crazy is that, that bear that killed that guy, they went back to training him.

Phil Demers 1:07:15 ... they're not gonna kill an animal that has value. It's the same as the orca that killed all the trainers. Like, uh, th- they're not gonna kill him. It's just not gonna happen, it's way too much.

Joe Rogan 1:07:21 But they were trying to, like, figure out whether or not he was gonna do it again. Like, Jesus Christ. What are you a soothsayer?

Phil Demers 1:07:27 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:27 How are you gonna figure out what a bear's gonna do? It's gonna be a bear, asshole.

Phil Demers 1:07:31 The people that are-

Joe Rogan 1:07:31 It's gonna do bear stuff.

Phil Demers 1:07:32 The people that are bringing, that, that are trying to have you interact with these animals like that, they're, they're, they're, they're relying on the animal's shock factor, the shock and awe. You know, they're bringing these animals in the close proximity to scare you. It's like, that's a fucked up thing, man.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 That's the bear right there-

Phil Demers 1:07:46 Look at that. See the- Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 ... ripping that guy's throat apart.

Phil Demers 1:07:49 So-

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 It's so horrific, man.

Phil Demers 1:07:50 So back to the, to Whitney thing. So Whitney's just, just harping on Dan Bilzerian, and he's deleting-

Joe Rogan 1:07:54 (laughs)

Phil Demers 1:07:54 ... the comments as quick as she's tossing them. So I decide, "Okay, well, I'm gonna weigh in now," right? So I, I throw a comment in, and then I forget about it. I turn the c- I, I go off, do my thing. And then that night, I'm on the Phil DeFranco show, not me personally, but he actually takes the comment because they know it got a lot of likes and stuff. I said something to the effect of, uh, "You know, that's an abused animal, blah, blah, blah, this and that." I said something like, you know, "Smoke more weed." Anyways, they put the comment up. Oh, by the way, the guy who handles the animal, he was sort of... He was using some legal, uh, sort of jargon with me as if he'd maybe was talking about a lawsuit. And I said, "Fuck it, sue me."

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 Legal jargon?

Phil Demers 1:08:25 Oh, he went right into the-

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 The guy who trained the bear-

Phil Demers 1:08:27 ... th- this is defamatory. No, because I said, "That's a starved, abused, uh, uh, animal." I mean, I know how do you... I know how... In the history of wild animals, when has a bear ever walked out and said, "Hey, I'm gonna become fuck friends with someone today." You know? "Fuck this being a bear shit, I'm gonna become a buddy."

Joe Rogan 1:08:37 Well, they don't... They starve them out when they're little cubs, you know that, right?

Phil Demers 1:08:41 Of course. And so they starve them, they abuse them, they have them... I mean, uh, by, by my definition of abuse-

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 But do they... Wait a minute, hold on a second. But do they have to do that to train them? I know pe- there are people who claim to love bears, that train bears, that take care of bears, and I guarantee you they don't all do that. It says, "Big no-no. There's nothing fun about abusing a drug-starved animal. Delete this and your penchant for animal exploitation. Smoke more weed." I don't know if smoke more weed is, like, gonna help that, but...

Phil Demers 1:09:06 It wasn't a chirp, though. Uh, uh, when... The way, uh, uh, Phil DeFranco said it, it was like, I was like, "Smoke more weed, you fool." I was just like, "No, no, smoke more weed." (laughs) Like, go inside more.

Joe Rogan 1:09:13 Think about it. Think... Oh, okay, got it.

Phil Demers 1:09:14 Yeah, I know. It wasn't a chirp.

Joe Rogan 1:09:15 Um, yeah. It... See, I feel like there are people that have bears that raise them, and I'm not in any way, shape, or form endorsing keeping bears in captivity. But what I see is people that have these sort of intimate relationships with these really well-fed bears. They're big and happy, and they feed them, and they get in the pool with them, and it's, it looks ridiculous. But I don't think they're starving that bear, and I don't think they're abusing that bear, and I don't think you have to do that. I don't think you can automatically assume that a bear is starved and abused.

Phil Demers 1:09:50 So I, I assumed the starved part, I certainly can't say, but a bear-

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 But it was a big bear. That was a fat bear.

Phil Demers 1:09:55 Well, he's feeding it. It might be hungry that day. I mean, it's more to say-

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 But hold on a second. But look at the body on the bear.

Phil Demers 1:10:00 Oh, big, not even maybe seated.

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 That's a well-fed bear.

Phil Demers 1:10:02 You can have a well-fed animal that's hungry for a week. There's no question about that.

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 But d- you know, that... But it's not likely that that thing starved.

Phil Demers 1:10:08 And my