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Joe Rogan Experience #1297 - Phil Demers

Phil Demers is a former professional marine mammal trainer and employee at Marineland in Canada. http://savesmooshi.com

Joe RoganhostPhil DemersguestGuest (unidentified, brief contributor)guest
May 16, 20191h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:46

    Walrus on the desk: Phil returns and Joe recaps the Marineland saga

    1. JR

      Oh. Hey, fella. What you got there?

    2. PD

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      What is that, legal marijuana in your hands?

    4. PD

      You want a closer look?

    5. JR

      You activist, you.

    6. PD

      I'm such a radical, man. Uh, the streets are- are not safe when I'm out on the loose.

    7. JR

      Are you radical?

    8. PD

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      You seem like a regular guy.

    10. PD

      Yeah, yeah. Regular guy, uh, with a irregular amount of stress.

    11. JR

      With the walrus right there.

    12. PD

      Dude, you don't mind my putting it there?

    13. JR

      No, no, not at all. Of course. Yeah.

    14. PD

      I'm so happy to come back and see it.

    15. JR

      No, it stays on the desk.

    16. PD

      Yeah, that thing's amazing.

    17. JR

      This, uh, means as much to us as anybody, except for you.

    18. PD

      Well, it's nice to see it. This is my, uh, this is my happy place. This is my safe place. (laughs)

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. PD

      I gotta travel across the country to be safe, but, uh, it's- it's certainly a pleasure to be here again. And Joe, I always have to thank you. Bottom of my heart, brother.

    21. JR

      Uh, listen, brother, I thank you too. I was texting Whitney today, I said, "You're a hero." You're a legitimate hero. (clears throat) For people who don't know what this is all about, I'll give everybody the backstory. Um, Phil used to work at Marineland. He was an orca trainer, and he also trained a walrus named Smooshy. And Smooshy is still allegedly in captivity at Marineland, although there's no photographic evidence, but you're pretty sure she's still there?

    22. PD

      I was told that she is still there and she's in good shape, and I'm hanging onto that.

    23. JR

      Since you came on the podcast the first time, which was how many years ago now?

    24. PD

      So six years ago, I think. That's 2013.

    25. JR

      Six years. So he's been living this lawsuit life for six years, trapped in a lawsuit with a gigantic corporation with incredible amounts of money that's been trying to crush him. And, um, they've made up stuff. Well, tell me what's- what's happened. Give- give me your- your perspective on how it all went down.

  2. 1:46 – 5:58

    Why Phil spoke out: Smooshy’s imprinting, neglect concerns, and the breaking point

    1. PD

      So back in 2012, I made, I- I was forced to make a very difficult decision. Uh, I elected to speak out against the conditions of which, uh, Marineland's animals were living in. Um, I did so knowing the risks, knowing that Marineland was a litigious company, but I did so on account to the fact that the animals were suffering incredibly. Uh, before quitting, I had an agreement with Marineland that, look, I'm leaving ... this is long before I'd spoke out- I'd spoken out. I'm leaving, but, you know, we have to establish that I can maintain this relationship with the walrus because sh- I imprinted on her. It's important to stress that, that she thinks I'm her mom.

    2. JR

      She was a baby.

    3. PD

      She was a baby when she came in, so she was wild caught, and you can imagine probably witnessed her mother get slaughtered. That's the, uh, that's the method of collecting babies, um, by the- by the captors in Russia. And, uh, so she comes in traumatic at the age of, we estimate about 18 months of age, which is pretty old, in fact, uh, for, uh, in our experience, Marineland's experience of- of acquiring these wild caught baby walruses. Um, and through a sort of traumatic experience with her that I was th- there with her, this anomalous thing happened where her brain circuitry opened up, and much like in the wild where in the case of herd animals, the babies, uh, become familiar with the mother's sound, scent, look, everything. All the senses are acute. They're- they're aware of who they, of where they are so that they can, you know, find each other amidst these thousands of animals. Well, this happened to her. So the brain circuitry opens, suddenly I'm imprinted on her. I wasn't prepared to leave Marineland unless it was of the understanding that I can continue to help her because historically, my relationship with her, uh, you know, had everything to do with her health and well-being. I quit with the understanding with Marineland this was to be the case. I'd been gone for a month. I come back unannounced. They don't want to let me in. They're hiding something. I get in, I see her. She's in terrible shape. I snap a few photos, I leave. Now, amidst this-

    4. JR

      When you say terrible shape, like, what do you mean?

    5. PD

      She was emaciated. She was bone dry. She hadn't eaten in ... The, uh, my having been gone a month was the longest she and I have ever actually been physically apart. I'd been trying to wean my presence off of her so that other trainers could be able to maintain a- a healthy, you know, healthy diet for her, healthy, uh, lifestyle as best as possible.

    6. JR

      So she was emaciated because she wasn't eating 'cause of stress?

    7. PD

      Well, I wasn't there for that month. I can't say. But she was certainly not eating. Uh, she was super skinny. Um, they had her, of course, on a bunch of drugs, which include, uh, psychotics, Valium, uh, antidepressants. Um, I ... When I saw her, my jaw hit the floor. It's important to note that during this, um, some newspapers had been calling. They wanted to know why I quit. If we back up a little bit, it should be noted that in 2007, my relationship with Smooshy sort of took off in the early sort of internet viral days and whatnot. Um, we made front page of like CNN and, uh, Jimmy Kimmel did a piece and, uh ... So there was sort of that backstory of the, you know, I guess you would call it a fluff celebrity type thing. But nonetheless, my having left started, people started asking questions. I started fielding calls from this newspaper who was looking, who was keen on doing an investigation of Marineland. So I wasn't gonna participate. I had no interest. Uh, again, stressing Marineland's litigious history, and also, look, I've got this relationship with a walrus that I- I sort of have to maintain. I have to rel- I have to keep this relationship with, uh, Marineland healthy enough. So once I'd realized they weren't holding onto that end of the bargain, you know, the panic sets in. I'm a first time mom, it should be stressed. Uh, so (laughs) I- I basically called the newspapers and I said, "You put my face, my name, and it doesn't matter. You just print it. Let's go. Let's- let's get the story out." Story gets out. Well, Marineland as expected, starts their lawsuit. They, it's like a, it's almost like a scorched earth. They take a scorched earth, uh, sort of, uh, method in their dealings.

    8. JR

      And this was when the original owner was alive?

    9. PD

      Yes. Yes, yes.

    10. JR

      He's no longer alive. He died during this-

  3. 5:58 – 7:09

    The scorched-earth lawsuit: ‘Plotting to steal a walrus’ and a decade of pressure tactics

    1. PD

      He died last year in, uh, in June, in fact. So, uh, years into this litigation. So, um...They sued me. They sued me for a million five. They sued my girlfriend, they sued other activists, they sued newspapers, they s- th- they're suing everybody. The mistake they made is in all of their absurd allegations that they've yet, six and a half years into, into litigation yet to prove any of it. They cannot. It's never gonna happen. It doesn't exist. It's a fictitious lawsuit. It's full of lies and bullshit. Bottom line, the mistake they made is they sued me for plotting to steal Smooshie. That's where the headlines take off. And, oh, they also called me the Kanye West of animal training.

    2. JR

      Yeah, I remember we went over there- (laughs)

    3. PD

      That's how I got your attention on the internet.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. PD

      This is why-

    6. JR

      No, no, no, that's not how you got my attention, silly.

    7. PD

      Well, I sent you a tweet. I sent you a tweet.

    8. JR

      Yeah, but the Kanye West part didn't get my- (laughs)

    9. PD

      Well, no, you said they called you ... the tweet was, I said, "Joe, t- you just say when, I'll book a flight to come to LA."

    10. JR

      (sighs)

    11. PD

      I sent you the link to the, to the story.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. PD

      The headline was, "Kanye West of Animal Training Being Sued for Plotting to Steal a Walrus." You wrote, "They called you the what?"

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. PD

      And then you slid into the DMs and said, "Dude, if you're ever in LA..." I said, "You just say when."

  4. 7:09 – 11:38

    Why captivity feels indefensible: dolphin/orca intelligence, family bonds, and trauma

    1. JR

      Well, I started reading the story. When I started, I've h- you know, I wrote a, um, a piece a long time ago on my blog, and, um, um, I talked about it in one of my comedy specials that, uh, I had a crazy experience with dolphins once, um, when I was really, really high. And I had this, um ... I mean, it's, it sounds silly to even talk about, but I almost feel like I, I kinda understood that they are like us, but they just don't alter their environment. And what I realized, like, when they were playing with us, when they were jumping by the boat, and they, they were looking at you. They were looking at you while they were jumping around with the boat. And I was like, "They're playing, and they're looking at you like a person would, like a water person."

    2. PD

      They're interacting.

    3. JR

      They're-

    4. PD

      There's almost a language at this point. There's some level of bridged gap in the-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. PD

      ... communication when you get to see that they're expressing themselves in interest in you and whatnot, and, and scoping you, and ... When you get really close and, and establish a relationship with these animals, that's when things start getting real squirrelly because you start to find that happy medium language.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. PD

      And now all of a sudden you are starting to sort of speak, so to say.

    9. JR

      Yeah. Well, I started getting really weird, um, feelings about SeaWorld, and, and, and animal captivity. Like, this w- w- why do we need that in this day and age? Like, this isn't the Dark Ages. We shouldn't be putting whales and orcas and dolphins, putting them in these tanks, these fucking water f- swimming pools. They're fucking swimming pools. And you have these things that are probably as smart as us in some different way. Like, we're so prejudiced in that we only think of intelligence as something that can manipulate its environment. That's our problem. Like, we're like, "Look at them, they're bitch ass world. They don't have any houses. They can't write a letter. They, they're fucking stupid, man. Stop it. They're stupid." But the dolphins apparently have a cerebral cortex that's somewh- something around 40% larger than a human being's. They have super complex languages.

    10. PD

      Their emotional intelligence is the mystery, and it appears that it's far beyond anything we ourselves can understand. Uh, same as orcas. They've got that, uh, they've got another part of the l- brain in the front, which is th- its function in that, the front of the, the cerebral cortex, that function is to, um, is for communication and for, and for, i- and it ha- it, it enhances their emotional capacity to a point where w- we don't really know the depth of which they are, uh, the power of their emotion, but we know that, uh, they stay with their families for their lifetimes. The males born, uh, from, from the mothers will, will rarely leave the mother's side, quite literally the distance of an orca itself. The only time that male will go on is when it's matured, and it will go to, uh, to its procreate, and then back to the mother. And it will live its entire life as such. And the sad fact about that is, in my experience, uh, working with male orcas caught from the, one of which caught from the wild, a big bull orca is, he was a mama's boy. You can see something was missing. He was traumatized from something. And of course, even myself as a regarded whale expert in the capacity of working at a fricking place like Marineland, even I would have never known this information when I started this. This is not information that was available to us back in ... I started in 2000. It makes sense now. This animal was traumatized from birth. His, uh, uh, hi- his will to live is just gone. Uh, it, it's, uh, and it ... The male, it appears to me and in my experience, the male sex of, uh ... Well, I've worked with seals, I've worked with sea lions, I've worked with, uh, walruses, uh, uh, dolphins, belugas and orcas. All of them die younger. The males die younger. And I think, well, definitely in the orcas and the, and the dolphins cases is they just don't have that will to live without that strong maternal figure in their life.

    11. JR

      This is what I try to explain to people that don't see it, and they think that the, the dolphins get treated well or the orcas get treated well. This is what it ... Imagine if someone stole your son and put him in an air box at the bottom of the ocean, and dolphins and whales and fish just came by and stared at him. Imagine. And he lives his life like that, with no contact other than with his, his dolphin handlers or whoever's taking care of him. And he just lives in this box, missing his family, missing his loved ones, missing his life.

    12. PD

      Confused, lost.

  5. 11:38 – 17:01

    John Lilly tangent: interspecies communication, weird research history, and float tanks

    1. JR

      And with, with a language that is, especially with orcas and dolphins, they have a language that's so complex, we haven't been able to really decipher it. We don't understand wh- how it works. You know, John Lilly spent, they, they spent, I think, decades working on trying to get dolphins to speak human noises. He had a bunch of studies that he did. And, um, he even had a d- it's a, it's a crazy story. I'm sure you've heard of it.

    2. PD

      Oh, I'm aware.

    3. JR

      The woman who lived with the dolphin, she, she'd tried to establish a relationship with the dolphin where she, they made an apartment that was half underwater, but the dolphin always wanted to fuck.So she just jerked the dolphin off and when she jerked the dolphin off, that was the only thing that calmed him down. And then she could do her work. So for her, it was just, like, a technicality. "I just gotta jerk this dolphin off. It's an animal, it wants to be rubbed. All the moral stuff that's attached to that is all in my own head." She's like, "I'm just gonna be a scientist." And they were like, "Cut. (laughs) Get that fuck ... What?"

    4. PD

      I think they were also injecting ketamine into the dolphins or something as well there.

    5. JR

      I do not know if they were doing that into dolphins, but I do know that they did some experiments with LSD and that, uh, John Lilly, who is one of my personal heroes, he's the creator of the flotation tank. This was all John Lilly stuff. He was a pioneer in inter-species communication. He would take acid and think that he was communicating with dolphins.

    6. PD

      Did you know you're on the cover of one of his books?

    7. JR

      What?

    8. PD

      Yes.

    9. JR

      What are you talking about?

    10. PD

      Your face is ... I mean, it's, it's a spitting image on, in one of his books, uh, it's-

    11. JR

      One of Lilly's books?

    12. PD

      Yeah. I think I have to look this up.

    13. JR

      Dude, this is creepy conspiracy time-

    14. PD

      Maybe a simple Google search of-

    15. JR

      ... traveler shit.

    16. PD

      Dude, it's in ... There you are.

    17. JR

      What is it? Whoa.

    18. PD

      How is that not you, man? I'm sorry. How is that not you?

    19. JR

      Oh, that's fucking weird-

    20. PD

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      ... man. That's fucking weird.

    22. PD

      Yeah. It-

    23. JR

      Wow. Uh, so that's, uh, prog- ... I can't read that. What does it say? Something-

    24. GC

      The human, the human computer.

    25. JR

      Programming the human computer.

    26. PD

      Biocomputer.

    27. GC

      Yeah, biocomputer.

    28. JR

      Yeah. I didn't read that one. I read The Deep Self though. The Deep Self's really interesting. Um, and The Deep Self ... I think The Deep Self is the one that also has, um, diagrams on how to build a tank. He was trying to get people to build tanks. He was like, "Listen, man. I found some shit out. You gotta try this."

    29. PD

      The last time I was here, uh, not the last time, two times ago, you actually, uh, sent me to Crash.

    30. JR

      Yeah. My man, Crash.

  6. 17:01 – 24:01

    Post-Blackfish reality: China’s boom and Russia’s ‘whale jail’ crisis

    1. PD

      And what's sad here is, you know, we, we're years removed from the documentary Blackfish.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. PD

      And, you know, that was really impactful. I mean, arguably, uh, responsible for the paradigm shift that we're, that we're experiencing here in North America, and other places of course. Um, but maybe it's time for people to revisit it. I know SeaWorld, uh, their stock is, a- and their value is sort of going up. Now, granted they ... You know, they change their numbers. They skew it. They have Free Beer Day. They pump the numbers up. You know, they have all these different promotions, whatever. I mean, everything that comes out of these, these facilities, these ... Assume it to be all bullshit, by the way. It, it's, it's all bullshit but not enough people question them on it. But as we speak while we're amidst sort of a paradigm shift here and, uh ... I mean, I can speak to it because, I mean, I'm very happy to say that we have very effectively decimated Marineland, and we'll talk more about that. But, uh, over in China this is now a burgeoning, uh, business. And I did ... We discussed this a year and a half ago and it's, it's tenfold now. It's happening very quickly. And I'm sure you're familiar with the whale jail situation in Russia. Have you seen that?

    4. JR

      No, I have not.

    5. PD

      They've got, uh ... Enclosed in this bay they've got over 100, uh, wild-caught belugas and orcas, so there's about 10 orcas if I'm not mistaken, and, uh, some activists flew a drone over it. This got worldwide attention.... uh, lot of outcry, lot of, uh, anger, of course. Um, so what happened was-

    6. JR

      Jamie, show it to us right now for the folks that are listening. And we're looking down at the, what looks like swimming pools with, uh, I guess those are belugas? What are those?

    7. PD

      Those have all been sold. Those are essentially sold and ready to go to China. Uh-

    8. JR

      Jesus.

    9. PD

      But on account of the fact that the activists got this and created a real worldwide stink, um, all the negative press that came of it, uh, they've now resolved that they wanna try to... Well, they've, they've hard considered, uh, releases. Um, the governor in the area signed a intent to release agreement with the world san- uh, with the Whale Sanctuary Project, uh, who sent a team to assess the animals' health and whatnot, and this was all of, like, three weeks ago. This was not a long time ago. And they assessed that all these animals should be released. There's a couple of issues. There's a couple of things that, (sighs) that are becoming conflicting. A, it's going to require a lot of cost if it's done responsibly. B, it appears... (sighs) Okay, so what's happened is, as we know, Russia's not exactly a democratic, uh, environment. Only one person makes the decisions. On account of what becomes of these whales, whereas there were some PR stunts to say, "Hey we're gonna... We wanna release them. We wanna do this to sort of mitigate the global outrage," the captors have propagandized this entire effort to, to free these whales as a means for the West to undermine the Russia's, Russia's economy, so the whale trade economy. Here's where Marineland comes into play, in a, in a theory at this point, but it, it has these in- very intense implications. What we know about what Marineland is doing currently in their transition from brilliantly successful business to virtually decimated, thank you, um, is they're shipping their whales out. We know two, um, are going out. If it's not this week, it'll be very soon. I'll be shocked if they're not out. I'm in LA, so I can't say that it's happening right now. I think it may very, very well be happening this week. They're going to Spain. We know that five other permits have been, uh, requested to send these animals now to the States, but-

    10. JR

      So was it they're liquidating their-

    11. PD

      The inte- Yeah, th- they're going... They're liquidating. But the issue is, if in fact Russia cat- catches wind that Marineland is sen- sending their whales, let's use the worst case scenario, to China, it validates the Russian captors' propaganda and concerns. Suddenly what we're concern is gonna happen is those animals... Suddenly Putin says, "Forget it. Sell 'em. Ship 'em out." That's, that's A scenario.

    12. JR

      Why, why would he do that?

    13. PD

      Because, again, the, the captors have propagandized that the West wants to cripple the, Russia's economy, their, their wild whale sale economy. So if Marineland is selling whales to China from Canada-

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. PD

      ... then suddenly the captors have a point. They'll say to Putin, "Look, they're, they're selling whales. Why is it such an outrage that Russia's doing it when Marineland's doing it?"

    16. JR

      Mm.

    17. PD

      So there's that concern. The other one, and this just came up within the last 20 hours, is it appears rather than go the most responsible route, which we know is going to be a costly endeavor, but, you know, we're game and we're ready, is, uh, they're now considering just dropping the nets and saying, "See you later."

    18. JR

      And letting all the animals go?

    19. PD

      Here's what we suspect. They're gonna let the orcas go because they were captured illegally. Uh, there's some gray area as to whether the beluga whales have been captured illegally or not. So I think it'll probably start with the orcas. Rather than move them to where they were at the same time of year, uh, when they were captured so that they can be next to their f- po- their tran- uh, transient pods or their, their, their, um, their pods, they just wanna drop this, this net and say, "See you later."

    20. JR

      Oh.

    21. PD

      Well, that's as irresponsible as it can get. But-

    22. JR

      That's crazy. It's like l- making someone a slave for how many years and then-

    23. PD

      Well, it's been a year or so.

    24. JR

      ... letting them loose somewhere on the planet.

    25. PD

      But imagine, their hope, you can imagine, would be, "Oh, see, it didn't work."

    26. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    27. PD

      There's a lot of... Uh, uh, there's a... This is a big issue. Uh, we're on it. There's a, there's a great, uh, team of activists over there.

    28. JR

      Would it be accurate to say that maybe what these groups are doing right now is recognizing that there's probably gonna be some radical changes in the way these things are permitted, what's legal, what's not legal? And what people are tolerating is just not the same as it was 10 years ago?

    29. PD

      Catch 'em and sell 'em as fast as you can.

    30. JR

      Yeah, just get out while you can, because there might come a point in time when not only could they not sell it, but they might be responsible for doing exactly what you said and bringing it back to the area where its family would be. It'd... Which would be an incredible cost. I mean-

  7. 24:01 – 31:46

    Canada’s Bill S-203: how a single senator stalled it and how activists forced it through

    1. PD

      So let's back up to, uh, as you know, uh, for well over four and a half years, five years now, I've been advocating for Bill S-203, which is a ban against, uh... which is a national kind- Canada wide ban against, uh, uh, whale and dolphin and porpoise captivity, so that would include no more breeding, no more import, no more export, any of that, okay?... during these, this, this by the way is going down as the longest bill ever researched in Canadian history because there's been a lot of issues from, uh, opposition. Uh, one, one senator in particular, in fact, and if I can have a moment to just give, uh, Senator Don Plett a big ole "I win, you piece of shit" ... Can ... Which camera do I look at for that?

    2. JR

      Uh ...

    3. PD

      "I win, you piece of shit." Sorry, I sh- I should be more humble, but-

    4. JR

      Was that the other guy, the lawyer on the other side?

    5. PD

      This is the ... No, no, this is the senator that has put every possible, um, block in front of the passage of this bill. He's tried to kill it silently forever. I mean, this is an epic, epic story. We've had to, as activists and the community at large, and again, I have to stress how much you've had a, a hand in this, is I've had to re ... I've had to have these campaigns where we literally flood the senate servers to the point of crashing it on a s- on a couple of, uh, insta- uh, instances where they were gonna kill the bill very silently through a sort of procedure. He's got ... As, uh, hi- his role is a, i- is called the Senate Whip, so he's actually yields a lot of influence and power. He, he, uh, creates the committees where people do the studies and everything. He sets the, uh, the, the dates for the committees. I mean, he had this thing studied for like 17 straight months. It was absurd. Again, the longest tenure in, uh, in, uh, Canadian legislative history, it appears, but this guy was, you know, doing his, his, uh-

    6. JR

      So he was-

    7. PD

      ... his best to kill it.

    8. JR

      Do you think that ... What do you think? Like why was he doing that?

    9. PD

      He's one of these guys who looks es- at this bill and he sees it as a activist, sort of left-wing, um, liber- you know, liberal sort of fluff bill. He doesn't see that it's necessary. He went to Marineland as an invited guest. Uh, he ve- he's very, uh, publicly declared his friendships for John Hohler. I don't wanna speculate as to whether there's been any, uh, money exchanges, but I know he's certainly very interested in killing this bill. And by virtue alone of activists pressuring and exposing all of his, his efforts, we actually saved this bill on a number of occasions. Uh, the most notable of which was just a few weeks ago, where, uh, in the House of Commons, it appeared this bill was gonna die, and literally at the eleventh hour, I packed up, we drove to Ottawa. I had a tweet storm set up. We put pressure on it. I tweeted individual senators, or rather individual members of, uh, of parliament, and, uh, I promised them, and you know, this is a sensitive time in Canadian politics for Justin Trudeau, the leader of the p- of the Liberal Party. I s- I promised them, if this bill dies on account of the fact that ... Wha- what was happening was the Liberals were gonna propose amendments to the bill at the last second. That would send it back to the Senate for further review, at which point we know Don Plett was waiting in line to kill it. There was nothing we could do at this point. This was going to be his to kill. The fact that this was being fas- f- uh, facilitated by Liberals was really an infuriating thing, but nonetheless, we applied an incredible amount of pressure. I drove my ass down there. I got there and I stood in front of every which one of them, and I looked them all in the eyes, and I'm just like, "I'm gonna make you famous. I'm gonna make you famous, and I'm gonna make you famous, and I'm gonna make you famous." And, uh, I don't wanna speculate if that's what, if that's what saved the day, although it was mentioned in the House of Commons that special interests pressured them at the last second, but in a (blows out air through mouth) in a last-

    10. JR

      Is that legal? Can you say that to someone? "I'm gonna make you famous."

    11. PD

      Mm-hmm. I think it's, uh, it's my most-

    12. JR

      It's like, uh-

    13. PD

      ... it's my most effective tool. (laughs)

    14. JR

      It's like a scene from, uh, like, um, the what's that? What was the, what was the cowboy movie where Val Kilmer played, uh, Doc Holliday, remember? Tombstone. Tombstone? Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like a line in Tombstone. Right?

    15. PD

      I'll take it as a good one.

    16. JR

      No, you know what it's from? Uh, the one with the Bon Jovi song. You know, those, those ... You know, shot down in a blaze of glory. You know, you know those, those, uh-

    17. PD

      What is that?

    18. JR

      ... those cute guys in the ... Was it the '80s or '90s that are all like did a western movie together? Young Guns.

    19. PD

      (laughs)

    20. JR

      Yes! That's it. (laughs) It's from that. "I'm gonna make you famous."

    21. PD

      Oh, shit. Sorry. (laughs)

    22. JR

      (laughs) I knew I had heard it from somewhere. I think it's from that.

    23. PD

      Well, I'd, I'd hoped it, I'd hoped it was my line, but nonetheless, it's what, uh-

    24. JR

      Yeah. Remember Emilio Estevez? This was arguably the campiest, cheesiest of the cowboy movies. Eh. All right. Right? Is it the campiest? I don't- Today? I didn't see it. I don't know. They're all handsome.

    25. PD

      (laughs)

    26. JR

      (laughs) Handsome devils. Um, sorry.

    27. PD

      So I, so I show up and-

    28. JR

      So you show up.

    29. PD

      ... literally they, at the, right before the meeting starts, the entire, uh, committee stands up and leaves the room. We're, now we're, we're there and we're prepared for this to die. I'm there for a funeral. Uh, they come back in. The conservative members of the committee, uh, propose their amendments. The liberals which outweigh the, uh, uh, the conservatives are, you know, they're all voting, so they're just knocking these things down, knocking them down, knocking them down, and then suddenly it comes to the Liberals' time to propose, um, their amendments. First guy comes up and he says, "I'd like to withdraw my amendment," note it on the record, sits down. "Okay, we'll go to number two." "I'd like to withdraw my amendment." Sits down. "Number three, I'd like to withdraw my amendment." We're like, "Holy shit." I'm looking back. You know, I've got some, we've got some people there that, uh, obviously with the s- of, of the s- with the same interests as me, and you know, I don't even know exactly what's going on at this point. I just know that, uh, their faces are indicative that this, we might win this thing. And the fourth, uh, member of Parliament stands up and he withdraws the amendment, and we save this thing in the last second. And I absolutely know it was a pressure campaign because like I said, I was gonna come on this podcast. I'd already had this date written for some time, and this was going to have political implications that I don't know that the Liberal Party could've sustained. It's th- a really bad time. I think this came from the top down.

    30. JR

      Mm.

  8. 31:46 – 36:06

    Marineland’s ‘liquidation’ phase: moving belugas, AZA/CAZA politics, and rule-bending transfers

    1. PD

      What's crazy in all this is here this bill is passing. Now we know it's going to pass. It's, uh, it should be, it should get royal assent, uh, come second week of June. Uh, shy of some, some catastrophe, this thing will become law. Um, that's why Marineland is trying to get rid of these whales as quickly as they can.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. PD

      They gotta get 'em outta here, because at least now they can just... Well, it sounds like two, two, uh, export permits have been approved, so they're, so two beluga whales are going to Spain. Um, you know, now granted that's being facilitated through the Vancouver Aquarium, (sighs) this becomes an ugly mess here because when it comes to zoos, they're all part of these associations. Okay? And these are l- these are industry voices. Anything that's... If a-... Any time you're told, "Well, this is an AZA accredited facility," you know, most schools for instance or d- or general people would say, "Oh, well, it's accredited, it's a good place." No, no, no, no, no. What that means is these places facilitate, uh, tr- animal transfers and whatnot to other member facilities. It's really just a club. And this club protects, uh, the interests of these parks, and keeps any type of oversight locked. They're lobby groups, basically. So what's happened is now through the Vancouver Aquarium, Marineland... So Marineland is sending these whales to Spain, but they're claiming them to be Vancouver Aquarium, uh, uh, whales, which is not true. They were never on these animals' inventory, or rather this facility's inventory list. There's never been any knowledge of any of this. But what's happened is because Vancouver Aquarium is accredited and has an affiliation with the AZA, so in Canada we call it CAZA, the Canadian Association of Zoos and Aquarium, and Marineland is in, is in fact not, uh, they no longer have their accreditation. They did, they didn't have the best of relationships shortly after all of our revelations. Um, it's all just... Right now it's just ev-... All, uh, the industry as a whole is breaking all of its own rules to facilitate getting these beluga whales. Marineland has 51 of them. Okay? There's five born every year, but they always have 51. And they don't, they haven't shipped an orca out in nearly a decade at this point. Um, I mean, you do the math that what's going on exactly, but-

    4. JR

      So they're dying?

    5. PD

      They always have 51. They don't ship 'em anywhere else. I can attest that, yes, uh, when I was there and in my experience, and you know you don't have to watch my words because I know Marineland's lawyer Andrew Burns is listening. Hi, Andrew. I'll see you next week. Um, in my experience, uh, yeah, you're, uh, for as many animals are born, you're just about losing as many. So you'll lose two old ones, you'll lose three young ones. Not all the ones that are born are gonna be successful, just about half are. Um, so, so what's happening now is the industry wants that bloodline. There's 51 captive orcas. Whereas, you know, there's a lot of controversy in importing animals from other places. The states can't... In fact, they can't bring them in from Russia without a public consult period. It might still be the case with Canada. So actually the public might actually be consulted, uh, about the import of these five belugas that, um, Marineland is seeking permit for to export. So that's something that certainly as an activist level I'll be, I'll be, you know, helping to, uh, guide towards the proper resolution. But, yeah, that's all happening. It is a race right now to g- to get rid of Marineland's animals. And, uh, (laughs) man, it is a wild time. It's- it's a wild time to be inside the doors at Marineland, as I can imagine, and in the fences. Uh, and it's, it's a most wild time for me to be on the outside because I've never in the last six and a half years of, of litigation and just of my advocacy and being sort of in a, up, you know, basically being engaged in war with Marineland, I've never seen them w- work harder to suppress me and to try to silence me than they are now. Uh, uh, as breaking news just today, Marineland had built this fence, aptly named Phil's Fence, around the park and just today we found out they blacked it all out with tarps, because come, uh, this Saturday, uh, May 18th, and certainly I'm inviting everyone to come join me. Uh, I'll be joining as an, as a guest, uh, a big demonstration outside of Marineland and we're gonna protest it, uh, as they're an-... as they're anticipating because on account of my coming on this show, they worked very hard to try to keep me from, A, coming, B, speaking of anything, C, certainly not promoting this event. So I certainly hope that this event is a, is a, is a well-attended-

    6. JR

      How did they try to do that?

  9. 36:06 – 42:20

    Litigation as a weapon: skipped examinations, counter-suit, and running out of money

    1. PD

      Well, because we're in litigation, what happens at, in litigation is you come to a point where you start to negotiate. And so there's things that they want from me. There's things they really want from me. They want my silence.... the problem is that they're never gonna silence me. It's not an option. I've said it before, I'll say it again, they can offer me a million dollars to shut up and go away. It's not gonna happen. I'm not gonna delete my Twitter. I'm not gonna delete any of my tweets that have the word Marineland in them.

    2. JR

      Is this a request?

    3. PD

      These, this is layers and layers, and there have been layers of requests. Basically, they'd hoped that I wouldn't come here. They'd hoped something could be worked out. In our litigation, we have, uh, so now, I, I chased Marineland. So back when Marineland's owner was still alive, uh, I put forth a huge campaign to try to get him to be examined legally by my lawyer, much like I've, uh, had to sort of submit myself to. Um, but as these lawsuits, and as, as litigation continues to reveal itself as just a perfect method of abuse, you know that they're just... The only resolve these things appear to serve is to exhaust both parties and have them come together with a resolution. So after six and a half years, uh, Marineland seems intent on a resolution. They don't wanna go to examinations. So while we were in... So while I was there to be examined a couple of weeks ago, my lawyer said, "Take a walk," and the two lawyers began their talks. We put off the examination because we believed there could be some good faith that could be shown between parties. Um, it became quite evident that it was not the case. And when we re- were to resume our examinations, which was to be last week, Marineland, on account to the fact that I was coming on this show, threw an absolute tirade and said, "We are not doing this." Now, bear in mind, this is a court-ordered examination date. I've got a, uh, a trial, uh, coordinator who is trying to nudge this thing forward because, I mean, that's something, that's a, that's a motion I had to win in the litigation itself, is to try to get someone to look at this thing so that it could actually move forward. Like, "Let's get someone to manage it." So we're, we're in case management. So that case management judge has issued a very aggressive schedule. It's... In, back in February, we had a court date of which, thank you very much, I won, uh, handedly. Marineland had to pick up, uh, just a little more than $12,000 of my legal bill, which is really, uh, on this particular motion, in this event, uh, kind of a drop in the pan. But, um, nonetheless, a, a, a, a, a sound victory in court. Um, you know, we have a case conference call next week now.

    4. JR

      Yup.

    5. PD

      I don't know where this stands because now Marineland has breached the court's order. So we went. They didn't show up to the examination. I got, uh, a fourth, uh, what's called a, um, certificate of non-attendance. It means the person that was supposed to be examined that day didn't show up. Uh, Marineland's owner, John Hohler, who has now passed away, uh, didn't show up to two of his, his examinations knowing full well that I'd have to pick up the 1,700 bucks to ca- to, just to be there to get the certificate, and he's just not gonna show up, no big deal. There doesn't seem to be any punitive damage at their end. They, they, uh... I mean, we're almost seven years into this thing and they're still, like, brutalizing me. But we're at a point where they're actually in a very uncomfortable position of having to keep this thing. If you don't want this litigation to be on the public record, and transcripts, and evidence, and everything, you have to stop it. It seems to me the courts, uh, appear to facilitate resolutions of that sort. They like settlements. I was promised a trial on day one. It's what kept me going. They're lying about me. They're lying about everything, everything they're saying.

    6. JR

      And they're trying to exhaust you financially?

    7. PD

      Well, of course they are. I mean, that's the, so, so the, uh, the premise is-

    8. JR

      And are you counter-suing them as well?

    9. PD

      I'm counter-suing. The premise of my counter-suit is so that they couldn't merely drop my d- my, the lawsuit against me over a period of time, and then that just be it. And that I would, I would then have to actually file a motion to get some costs back. I'd be lucky to get 50% and everything. Uh, in the early days, my lawyer said, "Let's sue them back." And so we did. I'm suing them for abuse of process. They're, they're using the court's time, resources. Uh, they s- I mean, even for that matter, we can extend that to the police and other, uh, you know, d- uh, departments and organizations. Uh, they're exhausting, uh, these things, uh, in bad faith. They're doing it because they just wanna try to... Basically, they wanna take away my right to, uh, free expression, which is a Canadian chartered right. I mean, I'm protecting my own history here. I mean, this is insanity. I can't even believe that after six and a half years, I'm still here at risk of being silenced, that the fact that... Uh, I mean, look, full disclosure, I'm out of money. The last time I was on this show, we raised... I mean, and again, thank you so much. 60, or maybe almost 70,000? That's in a year and a half. That's gone. I spent my last penny last month. It was a very aggressive last three months.

    10. JR

      Do you have a GoFundMe?

    11. PD

      I have a GoFundMe. Uh, yes, of course.

    12. JR

      Give out the information.

    13. PD

      Yes, please. Um-

    14. JR

      What is it?

    15. PD

      It's, uh... If you go to SaveSmooshi.com, S-A-V-E-S-M-O-O-S-H-I.com, you can go there. There's a small documentary. It's a little dated now, but on account to the fact that legislation... Nothing's really moved forward in the lawsuit and the legislation's only just wrapping up. It's still very current, so please spend the 14 minutes to sort of, uh, appreciate the story more. I guess you'll get a better, uh, more context to it. There's, you know, some, some footage in there, some back, uh, backstage stuff, some per-... You know, it, it tells the tale quite well. It's a, it's a, it's a good piece.

    16. JR

      Yeah. Folks, if you're, if you're hearing this, please help it out if you can.

    17. PD

      You know, Joe, I say it all the time. It, it's the thing I hate to do most is ask for help.

    18. JR

      I understand.

    19. PD

      It really makes me f-

    20. JR

      Well, your intentions are pure. You know, you really are, uh, a person who is going about this because you feel like you are uniquely qualified to talk about it. You have the actual information. You know what's wrong. You kn- you, you know, and you were part of the system. You understand it better than anybody on the outside could.

    21. PD

      And they have- and they have my walrus.

    22. JR

      And they have your walrus still, we think, we hope.

  10. 42:20 – 1:05:32

    ‘I don’t want money—I want the walrus’: negotiating Smooshy amid threats and protests

    1. PD

      And so when, and so when... In the litigation, my lawyer says, uh..."Well, here's what Marineland is prepared to offer." I say to my lawyer, "But what about the walrus?" And he says to me, "Dude, we talked about this. This is crazy. You're not getting a walrus." And I said to Marineland, "I don't want no money, not a penny. I want the walrus." There's two left. Uh, three have died in the last, r- really, in mere months. Uh, secretly, I find out-

    2. JR

      What would you do with her?

    3. PD

      I mean, ideally what I would like is... I just want her transferred at this point to another facility. I would love to see her transferred to the Vancouver Aquarium or there's a facility in Quebec as well. I just wanna be a pos- I just want to possibly be in her life. I- If she needs me, which we... I mean, there's a reason she's one of two still alive.

    4. JR

      Would you move?

    5. PD

      I- I... If... I would've come... Listen.

    6. JR

      Would you move to Vancouver?

    7. PD

      I- If suddenly Dan Bilzerian gets on the horse. He's finally got this, uh...

    8. JR

      I'm moved. (laughs)

    9. PD

      (laughs) Well, actually, I... Uh, well, wait, there's a backstory to that too. I actually got some beef with him inadvertently, but we'll, we'll get back to that. But, you know, if he were to, to suddenly say, "Hey, I got this, uh, arctic beachfront home and, uh... Dude, I'll buy you a walrus." Yeah, I'll move, absolutely. I mean, she's got another 10 years of her life. Uh, dude, I... There's only one way I want this story-

    10. JR

      You would move to the Arctic to be with this walrus? Play the music.

    11. PD

      Is there a better end to this, to this story?

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. PD

      I mean, really. I- It all sounds so crazy, Joe, but here's six, six and a half years ago, I was like-

    14. JR

      Now.

    15. PD

      ... "I want the walrus."

    16. JR

      Right.

    17. PD

      Suddenly here I am negotiating for a walrus. Call me crazy, but look at this.

    18. JR

      So are they willing to negotiate for the walrus? Is this actually in consideration?

    19. PD

      Yes.

    20. JR

      Yes.

    21. PD

      But not without layers and layers and layers of compromise.

    22. JR

      Of course.

    23. PD

      And... But bear in mind, not in the capacity that I see it, more of a, "Yeah, maybe. Maybe we won't send her to China. How's that? Maybe we'll send her somewhere and not deter that facility from, uh, you visiting. Maybe we could do that for you." That's what... I mean, it's, it's really bad faith negotiat- The problem with... The thing that I have a hard time dealing with is, look, we're in litigation. In, you know, in, in litigation, you have to exercise a certain amount of decorum. And it's not exactly my strong point. It's just not. I find decorum to be just a thick layer of bullshit. I just do.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. PD

      You wanna hope that there's gonna be some type of good faith negotiation. I, I, I want that. Marineland negotiates with additional hostilities and threats. It's not worked for them in six and a half years. What makes you think it's gonna work now? So here, I think we're going down a path of possibly good, uh, good faith negotiations. The, the owner, the, the villain of the story is gone. He's out of the picture. Uh, the, the new president who is the, the widow, the wife, is a wonderful woman. I mean, listen, if... I, I honestly and truly believe if the lawyer himself wasn't the controlling mind of the business now, uh, he's sort of facilitating this transfer of, of, of the business as it was to just being sold off, pieced off, and, and, you know, distribute the wealth to the, to the remaining family members. I think that we could... I think this story ends on a good note. I mean, I have no hostilities. You know, I have every reason in the world to despise the man who sued me. And I don't. I don't even think about him. It was never about that. They made every case in the world, every argument that this was personal between me and him. And-

    26. JR

      But that's 'cause you look in the camera and say "fuck you" to people.

    27. PD

      It's personal between me and Don Plett. You can bet your ass.

    28. JR

      (laughs)

    29. PD

      That's a different story. (laughs) But you know what I'm saying?

    30. JR

      Did I make him famous?

  11. 1:05:32 – 1:16:15

    Dan Bilzerian’s party bear and the broader issue of exploiting wild animals for spectacle

    1. PD

      Let me touch on the Dan Bilzerian thing.

    2. JR

      So-

    3. PD

      I heard... Is he coming here on... in May? Is that right?

    4. JR

      On the podcast?

    5. PD

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      Not that I know of.

    7. PD

      Okay. Someone had said to me, "Oh, oh, I hear Dan Bilzerian's gonna be on the podcast."

    8. JR

      He's been on before, though.

    9. PD

      Yeah, I know that he has.

    10. JR

      He was on once.

    11. PD

      I thought that he was coming on sooner. That kind of made me nervous 'cause, uh, so-

    12. JR

      Why?

    13. PD

      A couple weeks ago, Whitney's like just, just drilling Dan Bilzerian on Instagram for having this polar bear, right? There's this video of a polar bear at a fucking party and he's feeding it. She's just... She's-

    14. JR

      What? He had a polar bear at a party? (laughs)

    15. PD

      Yeah. No. It was like a big... It was a big brown bear, like grizzly. It was a big grizzly bear at a party.

    16. JR

      Really?

    17. PD

      Yeah. On a, you know, electric fence around and everything else. So, she's-

    18. JR

      Where was he?

    19. GC

      At his house.

    20. PD

      Probably one of his crazy-

    21. JR

      At his house?

    22. PD

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      He had a fu- Oh, Jesus, Dan Bilzerian. What the fuck, bro?

    24. GC

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      Oh, my God. He had a fucking brown bear at his house. Look at the size of that thing. Oh, my God. I'm getting anxiety. Did he ever see the fucking... What was the...

    26. PD

      Yeah, the bear dude who's like ugh.

    27. JR

      What was the... Yeah, yeah. The one where the bear ripped the guy's throat apart.

    28. PD

      That was the one in a movie too, wasn't it? Wasn't-

    29. JR

      No, the bear was in a movie. The bear was in a football movie. What was that movie?

    30. GC

      Basketball, in the, uh, with, uh-

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