Joe Rogan Experience #1301- Laird Hamilton

Joe Rogan 0:02 And we're live. How are you, sir? What's going on, man?

Laird Hamilton 0:05 Very well, thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:06 First of all, thank you very much for the coffee machine, and this o- I just learned that it's turmeric. I used to say tumeric. I used to not even think there was an R in there for some strange reason.

Laird Hamilton 0:16 Well, in Hawaii, it's olena. So it just-

Joe Rogan 0:18 Oh, really?

Laird Hamilton 0:18 ... depends on which country you're in. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:20 It's a diff- what does, what does, what is it? It's a root, right?

Laird Hamilton 0:22 Yeah. It's in the ginger family.

Joe Rogan 0:24 And is it, uh, why do they call it olena? Is that a Polynesian word for it?

Laird Hamilton 0:26 It's just a Hawaiian name. I mean, the Indians probably have another.

Joe Rogan 0:30 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 0:30 You know, in India, it's probably one of the most used, uh, you know, u- roots. They, it's in every, all Indian food is just full of it.

Joe Rogan 0:39 Yeah. It's really healthy for you, right? It's great for inflammation.

Laird Hamilton 0:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:42 Just-

Laird Hamilton 0:42 And, well, gut health too.

Joe Rogan 0:44 Mm. So you, uh, gave me this-

Laird Hamilton 0:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:47 ... layered superfoods coffee machine, and I'm addicted to this now, this coffee with turmeric. I've never had it before.

Laird Hamilton 0:54 Well, there's some other minerals and stuff in there too.

Joe Rogan 0:56 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 0:56 So if you're addicted to it, it's 'cause there's things that are good for you.

Joe Rogan 0:59 Yeah, like, I crave it.

Laird Hamilton 1:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00 Like, it seems-

Laird Hamilton 1:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01 ... like something I should be drinking.

Laird Hamilton 1:01 Well, your body wants it.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:03 You know, I think sometimes people think cravings are based on negative, like "Oh, I just, it's bad 'cause I crave it." But I think cravings are natural. I think when, but it's, you know, we abuse it when we use garbage, but-

Joe Rogan 1:15 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:16 ... when, when you're craving something like that, I mean, there's, you know, a bunch of minerals, and, and a bunch of good fats, and there's a bunch of good stuff in there.

Joe Rogan 1:23 Yeah, it's hard to tell though, right? Like, sometimes you crave sugar.

Laird Hamilton 1:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Sometimes you crave ice cream.

Laird Hamilton 1:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:28 There's some cravings that are not good.

Laird Hamilton 1:30 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:31 But other ones are.

Laird Hamilton 1:32 Exactly. But-

Joe Rogan 1:32 You know?

Laird Hamilton 1:32 ... the system of craving, I believe, is part of a natural human thing that we have that was meant to crave good things, but we abuse it with... Well, 'cause sugar in nature is meant to be safe.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:45 That means it's safe to eat.

Joe Rogan 1:46 Right, right, right. It's fruit, right?

Laird Hamilton 1:48 So, so, yeah, so then we, so, but then we abuse it by disguising a bunch of garbage with sugar, and then people think, "Oh, that's great to eat."

Joe Rogan 1:56 That makes sense. Yeah, 'cause whenever I lift weights, I crave protein.

Laird Hamilton 1:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:59 I crave, like, fish or chicken or steak or something.

Laird Hamilton 2:02 Yeah. Well, you're-

Joe Rogan 2:03 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 2:03 ... you're beating up muscles, you want protein. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:05 Yeah, but it's an instantaneous craving.

Laird Hamilton 2:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:07 Like, it's like right away, I'm like, "Oh, I gotta eat something." Yeah. Um, so you've got me cranking the sauna up. Uh, your wife told me that you crank yours up to 220 degrees. Is that real?

Laird Hamilton 2:18 That's real.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Goddamn, man, I get to 210, I'm like, this is... How long do you do at 220?

Laird Hamilton 2:23 Well, it depends on how, how cold you go into it.

Joe Rogan 2:27 Oh, okay.

Laird Hamilton 2:27 So if you're, if your body, if your core temperature's way down, you can... You know, if you, if you got off a stationary bike and your core was nice and hot and you went in there, y- you know, you'd be lucky to get 10 or f- 10 or 15 minutes out.

Joe Rogan 2:40 Right.

Laird Hamilton 2:40 If you come out of a ice tub or you've been outside with minimal clothing, you could go in there and for 20 minutes at 220. So it just depends on, you know, where your, what your core t- you know, where your core is.

Joe Rogan 2:53 Is that how you do it? You do from an ice bath?

Laird Hamilton 2:56 I will do it from an ice bath. It just, you know, I think you just break it up. It's just like anything, any kind of training. You just wanna constantly stress the system, and if you're used to a certain pattern, you know, go into it hot, like if you go into a sauna hot coming off of some cardio, that, it's twice as hot. If you go in cold, then you can go for a longer period of time. And same with the ice. I mean, if you go into the ice cold, the ice will tap you. If you go in hot, you can be there. So...

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah, they're doing some studies now on hot yoga out of Harvard. They're trying to figure out if hot yoga mimics the positive health effects of sauna. And so the idea is that, you know, because you're straining and resisting, it's mu- it feels much hotter than 104 degrees. If you had a sauna-

Laird Hamilton 3:38 For sure.

Joe Rogan 3:38 ... that was 104, 105 degrees, it'd be nothing.

Laird Hamilton 3:40 For sure.

Joe Rogan 3:41 But yoga at 105 degrees is pretty rough.

Laird Hamilton 3:43 Rough.

Joe Rogan 3:44 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 3:44 Well, because again, core temperature is hot.

Joe Rogan 3:46 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 3:46 So we do some stationary bikes in the sauna.

Joe Rogan 3:49 Oh, wow.

Laird Hamilton 3:49 And that, I mean, that's just a, it's like you can always up the ante, you know, it's like a weight stack. You just slap more l- lead on there. And, uh, we'll do, we'll do, we'll go in this, with an assault bike.

Joe Rogan 4:00 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 4:01 I have an assault bike in one of the saunas.

Joe Rogan 4:02 Oh, Jesus.

Laird Hamilton 4:02 And we'll crank that thing up and... You know, I mean, and you're lucky if you might be five or 10 minutes in your, your... But I think, you know, we're such good adapters, or our da-, you know, our adaptation is amazing. And you do some stuff for a while, I think you do, pretty soon you're like, "Oh, I can handle a, you know, an assault bike at a, at a survivable pace." You know?

Joe Rogan 4:23 Yeah, survivable. That's a rough machine.

Laird Hamilton 4:26 Rough machine.

Joe Rogan 4:26 I have the rogue version, the Echo Bike.

Laird Hamilton 4:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:29 That thing is fantastic.

Laird Hamilton 4:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:31 I love it.

Laird Hamilton 4:31 For sure. Well, it's all four limbs.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Yeah, all four limbs. It's one of my all-time f- two Tabatas.

Laird Hamilton 4:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:36 I do Tabata sprints on it.

Laird Hamilton 4:38 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:38 My all-time favorite method of cardio. I love it.

Laird Hamilton 4:39 For sure. For sure. Well, low impact on the system. You're not beating every, the joints up.

Joe Rogan 4:44 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 4:44 Every, all four things are working.

Joe Rogan 4:46 And you get toast.

Laird Hamilton 4:46 You can throw in some nose breathing in there or something, and breath holding intervals or something just to... You know.

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 4:52 Just, pain and suffering.

Joe Rogan 4:54 You were explaining nose breathing to me out there.

Laird Hamilton 4:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:57 How nose breathing is better?

Laird Hamilton 4:59 Better for you.

Joe Rogan 5:00 Because of?

Laird Hamilton 5:01 Well, first of all, you were designed to breathe, your sinuses and your nose were designed for breathing. And so you actually emit a gas in your sinuses, from my understanding, a gas called nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator. It helps you absorb oxygen. So by breathing through your nose, plus you reduce the, uh, amount of intake that you have.

Joe Rogan 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 5:21 And that gets you CO₂ tolerant. So all of a sudden you're, you're breathing less volume. I mean, you know from the fight game, as soon as a guy goes to mouth breathing, you're like-

Joe Rogan 5:30 He's toast.

Laird Hamilton 5:31 ... he's toast.

Joe Rogan 5:31 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 5:31 You know that, right?

Joe Rogan 5:32 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 5:32 That's your first giveaway.

Joe Rogan 5:33 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 5:33 So your ability to deal with stress and breathe through your nose. I mean, everybody should bre- be breathing through their nose in their sleep, walking around. I mean, we, somehow we became mouth breathers in the last-

Joe Rogan 5:46 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 5:46 ... 200 years, and they're not sure why. There's a great book called The Oxygen Advantage, uh, by Patrick McDougall that, uh, he actually is on our board of XPT, but he, he, you know, kind of realized that our issues really stem from mouth breathing, chronic-... uh, mouth breathing, which is scrubbing our CO2 and keeping our CO2 levels down, which is the marker to absorb oxygen.

Joe Rogan 6:09 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 6:09 So when your CO2 levels are down, you don't absorb the oxygen from your bloodstream. The cells don't take it. As soon as the CO2 goes up, then the, then the body starts to pull it out of the blood.

Joe Rogan 6:19 Interesting. So smaller amounts by breathing through the nose actually makes you absorb more oxygen?

Laird Hamilton 6:25 Well, keeps your tolerance and-

Joe Rogan 6:26 Keeps your tolerance.

Laird Hamilton 6:26 Yeah. But definitely, g- gets your CO2 tolerant up, but the smaller volume helps your body become more tolerant of higher levels of CO2. But the no-

Joe Rogan 6:35 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 6:35 ... the sinuses themselves emit a gas that helps the lung absorb the oxygen is... And that's, you know, that's what I've been led to understand.

Joe Rogan 6:43 I- I had a broken nose until I was 40. My nose was useless. I couldn't get anything out of it. It w- it had been broken like, who knows how many times.

Laird Hamilton 6:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:50 And it was all, the inside was all caked up with scar tissue and calcified. And when I got it fixed, it was like the world changed. It was like (inhales) ah. I couldn't do that. I just couldn't breathe out of my nose.

Laird Hamilton 7:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:01 I would go to yoga class, they'd tell me to breathe out of my nose. I'm like, "I don't have one."

Laird Hamilton 7:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:04 I'm like, "I could smell farts."

Laird Hamilton 7:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:05 That's it. I could smell gas and gasoline.

Laird Hamilton 7:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:08 Like, it has to be rough-

Laird Hamilton 7:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:09 ... for, for me to smell it.

Laird Hamilton 7:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:10 But now, I have a real nose.

Laird Hamilton 7:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:12 I always encourage people, "Please, if you have a broken nose, please get that deviated septum fixed."

Laird Hamilton 7:17 (laughs) Well-

Joe Rogan 7:17 It's amazing.

Laird Hamilton 7:17 ... you know, it's surprising if you start to nose breathe, even if you have struggle, i- um, because of the, that gas helps you open up, a lot of people, I mean, uh, you know, I'm not saying that you have that, but a lot of people actually will gain volume after-

Joe Rogan 7:30 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 7:31 ... a few weeks of forcing themselves in nose breathe. They'll actually start to open up all of that, that system. You know?

Joe Rogan 7:37 That actually makes sense.

Laird Hamilton 7:38 So it's-

Joe Rogan 7:38 Yeah. Your body will just adapt and try to figure out a way-

Laird Hamilton 7:40 It forces it to, to open, but-

Joe Rogan 7:42 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 7:43 Yeah, no, it's all about nose breathing.

Joe Rogan 7:45 W- wow. I didn't think... I just thought it was just more difficult, so it's probably a good thing to do for discipline.

Laird Hamilton 7:50 Absolutely. And if you can do your cardio f- w- a- a- and retain a nose breath, you're, you're, you have another gear.

Joe Rogan 7:57 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 7:57 'Cause then when you go to mouth, it's like you gotta... It's like having a, you know, a blower on your car or something.

Joe Rogan 8:02 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 8:02 You open up the, you know, you open up the air-

Joe Rogan 8:05 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 8:05 ... and it's a whole new game. So by being able to sustain a high output of, with nose breathing, then... And, and like I said, it's all about the tolerance for CO2. It's how much CO2 you can handle in your system. You know, like, that's why altitude screws people up, 'cause the CO2 jacks up and they don't have a tolerance, and then you get all wonky-

Joe Rogan 8:22 Hm.

Laird Hamilton 8:22 ... and you feel like crap.

Joe Rogan 8:24 Yeah. It's, and it's interesting you're talking about cravings, because one of the things that I've noticed since I've been... I cranked up the t- the, the temperature in the sauna for the first week to 200 degrees, then I've been doing 210 for the last few days, and, uh, you crave it now. I crave it. Like, when I'm at home, I'm like, "I can't wait to get back in that goddamn sauna again." Meanwhile, when I'm in there, I can't wait to get out. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 8:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:44 It's weird.

Laird Hamilton 8:45 There, within lies the struggle.

Joe Rogan 8:47 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 8:47 I, I mean, ice is the same way. Like, I have an addiction to ice and I've, you know, uh, recently, I've been... just came back from Hawaii and I'm, like, dealing with this... My ice machine's broken down, I'm waiting for the new one. I keep calling the guy and going, "Hey, when are you gonna put the thing in?" And he's thinking it's like a luxury, like, "Yeah, you're gonna... You gotta... What do you need an ice machine at your house for?" I mean, 'cause I have a, two, like, restaurant-sized ones. And-

Joe Rogan 9:07 Two of them?

Laird Hamilton 9:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:08 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 9:08 And... Well, I have a lot of friends. Uh, but-

Joe Rogan 9:10 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 9:11 ... but h- but he's like, "What do you need that for?" And I'm like, "Uh, uh..." Like, just, just get... You know, he's got the tubs. I'm like, um, I need-

Joe Rogan 9:16 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 9:16 But I... My body craves... You get it... Listen, your body is just craving the things that are bringing the hormones and doing... I mean, it's like-

Joe Rogan 9:24 Ah.

Laird Hamilton 9:24 ... why you crave exercise, you know?

Joe Rogan 9:26 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 9:26 I have a theory that the reason why people are hooked to cardio activity is because it's forced breathing. That people... Because you wouldn't willingly just sit on your floor and breathe heavy for an hour.

Joe Rogan 9:36 Right.

Laird Hamilton 9:36 So your body's like, "Okay, let's go for a run. Like, let's go. You need to run. You better run. You better run." And then you go run and, and then the body gets that absorption of o- uh, gets that, uh, oxygen-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 9:45 ... that it really wants.

Joe Rogan 9:47 The feel... I feel like there's probably several factors, 'cause also I feel like when I'm really consistent with my workouts, I know that I'm gaining momentum, and I know like, "Ah, y- you know, I'm consistent. Everything's going great. I'm in great shape right now. I gotta keep pushing this."

Laird Hamilton 10:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:01 That feels like... It's, it feels like a, like just the, just positive results are being achieved and you sort of get addicted to success.

Laird Hamilton 10:07 Well, and, and, uh, but also too, the body, uh, the adaptation, if you ever put yourself under some real severe stress in multiple days, the first day you feel like you're not gonna be able to make it, the second day you're feeling, you know, like you can't, really can't make it, the third, pretty soon the fourth day, the body's like, "Oh, this is the new house we're living in?"

Joe Rogan 10:24 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 10:24 "Like, this is where we're at?"

Joe Rogan 10:25 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 10:25 "Okay, well, we're gonna adapt and modify," and then pretty soon you're doing even more you were, than you were doing the first couple of days-

Joe Rogan 10:31 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 10:31 ... and you're not even feeling it.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 10:32 And so it's like we're, we're, the... we're an amazing, uh, an amazing machine, you know? We're an amazing creature, uh, just the way we can handle the load and the... And especially in this, in our new world where we, you know, don't have to do much. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:48 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, unless we want to. Um, do you, you know who Eddie Izzard is?

Laird Hamilton 10:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:52 The comedian?

Laird Hamilton 10:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:53 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 10:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:54 He, he ran a series in marathons-

Laird Hamilton 10:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:56 ... all around the UK.

Laird Hamilton 10:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:57 And then he did one in South Africa.

Laird Hamilton 10:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:58 And he was on the- two weeks ago and he was telling me that when you first started doing it, like, the first few were really hard, but then your body's like, "Well, this is what we do. We run marathons." And then like day three, day four, things started picking up, day five, and by the time day 10 came along, he's just running.

Laird Hamilton 11:14 For sure.

Joe Rogan 11:15 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 11:15 For sure. I got a friend, ran 125 in a row, and then he ran the Boston after that.

Joe Rogan 11:20 Shi... (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 11:21 And then he had a fight in Vegas and he ran a marathon in the morning, and then he, like, knocked the guy out in the third round and after. I mean, he's just... He's- He's-

Joe Rogan 11:28 He ran a marathon in the morning and then fought that day? Holy shit. That's a... Who is this?

Laird Hamilton 11:33 Tom, Tom Jones. Yeah, Muay Thai, seven-time Muay Thai world champion.

Joe Rogan 11:36 Jesus Christ, Tom Jones.

Laird Hamilton 11:38 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:38 What the fuck, man? You run a marathon the day you fight?

Laird Hamilton 11:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:41 Imagine if a dude knocked you out after you run a marathon.

Laird Hamilton 11:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:44 I'd be like, "That's... I'm done. This is not me."

Laird Hamilton 11:47 Yeah.

Narrator 11:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:47 "I'm gonna learn how to play golf."

Laird Hamilton 11:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:50 (laughs) Fuck this.

Laird Hamilton 11:50 Yeah, Muay Thai.

Joe Rogan 11:51 Fuck this and-

Laird Hamilton 11:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:52 ... fuck Tom Jones.

Laird Hamilton 11:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:55 That's what I would say. (laughs) That's crazy.

Laird Hamilton 11:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:56 So he ran 125 marathons in a row? So 125 days of marathons?

Laird Hamilton 12:00 Two Boston, and then he ran the Boston when he got there.

Joe Rogan 12:03 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 12:03 He ran across the country.... what?

Joe Rogan 12:06 He ran across the country-

Laird Hamilton 12:07 So that's how he got there?

Joe Rogan 12:08 (laughs) Yeah, no way. (laughs) Yeah, well, so he d- did- ran a marathon- Yeah, no way. (laughs) ... took a nap, ate some food- (laughs) ... ran a marathon, took a nap, ate some food? What the fuck? (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 12:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:17 There's levels to this game.

Laird Hamilton 12:18 But- but- but it just shows you that, you know, that ability to adapt and- and what we can, you know, what we can do.

Joe Rogan 12:24 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 12:24 It's amazing how the body will just, when you push it and you keep ... it'll just be like, it'll ramp. I mean, and- and I think for us in this, in our new world that we live in, that seems so crazy but probably in the past, we were like, "Oh, yeah, well, we went all the way down to South America and we did some hunting down there and then we r- you know, trekked a marathon or two per day and we came all the way back to Alaska."

Joe Rogan 12:47 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 12:47 You know? Like ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:48 Right. Right. Right.

Laird Hamilton 12:49 You know? Like ...

Joe Rogan 12:49 You had to stay alive.

Laird Hamilton 12:50 That was just our life. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Yeah. Well, especially when they used to persistence hunt, you know, when they would just run an animal down-

Laird Hamilton 12:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:56 ... 'cause animals-

Laird Hamilton 12:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:57 ... are great for sprints-

Laird Hamilton 12:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:58 ... but for, especially like gazelles and things along those lines.

Laird Hamilton 13:01 Yeah. But you know what th- you know what th- the real technique really is based on is that our breathing. That breathing is what gives us, we have an ability to adjust our breath so we can actually adjust how many times we breathe per motion, where a lot of these animals are breathing for a rep. Every rep is a breath so every step is ... (breathing rapidly)

Joe Rogan 13:20 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 13:21 And we can do multiple steps in one breath and so that's why our, that's why we can outrun a horse. At the end of the day, you always see the, in the cowboy movies, the horse is laying dead in the desert and the guy's still going along but because the- th- those mammals are breathing a ... Every breath is a rep. And you imagine how tiring that is. Like you hear a horse run (breathing rapidly) right?

Joe Rogan 13:41 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 13:41 They're breathing every-

Joe Rogan 13:42 Interesting.

Laird Hamilton 13:42 ... and we're, we running full speed but we can just do a breath (breathing deeply) and then do s- five or six or eight reps and that gives us that endurance, so that's why we can run those gazelles down because those guys are just breathe ... they're- they're breathed out.

Joe Rogan 13:56 That's interesting. Well, I'm- I'm always very appreciative of guys like you that are in my age range.

Laird Hamilton 14:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:02 You're- you're 55, right?

Laird Hamilton 14:03 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:04 I'm 51. Speed limit.

Laird Hamilton 14:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:05 Yeah, it's like- Speed limit. (laughs) ... you're, but you're also very fit and very active and you keep going, whereas a lotta guys around 55, like it's a wrap. Turn off the car. Yeah. Yeah. It's, there's not much in the tank and so- Yeah. ... I like to see guys that are in my a- age bracket- Yeah. ... or a little bit ahead of me, like, "Oh, he's going." Going. "I can keep going too." Full, full speed. And I think a lotta that is just thinking and knowing that you can because I think so many people f- feel like, "Hey, I'm 45. It's time to settle down. It's time to relax-" Yeah. "... and, you know, and wind down this exercise," you know?

Laird Hamilton 14:38 Uh, but, you know, I- I think, but I l- I think that people use that as dis- a disclaimer-

Joe Rogan 14:42 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 14:42 ... to not do the work.

Joe Rogan 14:43 That's what I'm thinking.

Laird Hamilton 14:43 It's like, "Now I'm 45 so now I don't-"

Joe Rogan 14:45 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 14:45 "... now I don't ... I'm too old."

Joe Rogan 14:47 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 14:47 Right? That just, that, for me, I l- I- I think that's a way out.

Joe Rogan 14:50 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 14:50 Right? That's a way to go, "Hey, I don't wanna do the work anymore." And, you know, I have, uh, my f- uh, one of my best friends just passed this last year and he was 85 when he passed and, uh, and he was cr- I mean, he did the Ironman 10 times. The first time was hi- when he was 50, um, and then he's done the Race Across America three times. I mean, he does just... He was just an animal. Bang iron every day, ride the bike, just, just, uh ...

Joe Rogan 15:13 At 85 he was doing all that still?

Laird Hamilton 15:14 An animal.

Joe Rogan 15:16 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 15:16 An animal till the day he died. It was like-

Joe Rogan 15:18 Wow.

Laird Hamilton 15:18 ... and- and his name was, and this is, the irony was is his name was Don Wildman. And so-

Joe Rogan 15:23 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 15:23 ... like, that's his given name. No, I'm serious. That's his-

Joe Rogan 15:25 That's amazing. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 15:26 His given name. I go, "Anybody named the Wildman's gotta keep it up." But he was, you know, like you're talking about, uh, when you can see it, right? When you can, what does it look like when I see ... I mean, you look at ... It's interesting to see in sports right now. We have a lotta athletes right now that are operating as th- they're the oldest that, you know, that they-

Joe Rogan 15:43 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 15:43 ... that we've seen and, uh, uh, I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that- that, uh, you know, that they've s- have some examples but they're also not ta- accepting that, "Hey, now you're too old." Like, that's-

Joe Rogan 15:56 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 15:56 ... because that's a decision. Like, "Hey, oh, now you're too old. Oh, yeah, you, you know, you're gonna keep doing that?" It's like, "Yeah, you're gonna do it all the way until they throw the dirt on the box." You know? Like, we're going all the way full speed until we're not and then when we're not, we're not.

Joe Rogan 16:09 What did, uh, Mr. Wildman die of?

Laird Hamilton 16:11 Uh, it was ... Eventually it was a cancer that he couldn't get, uh, fight through chemo.

Joe Rogan 16:17 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 16:17 And so, but it- but it- but it was within, like, a couple weeks.

Joe Rogan 16:19 Oh, man.

Laird Hamilton 16:19 Like, he just was, like, shut it down. Um, he, it was, at one point he was like the e- he was a little bit like the Everready Bunny and- and Humpty Dumpty. Like, he would just ... Like, double knee surgery, like, within, like ... He had a broken leg and he'd be on a stationary bike with a crutch on one of the pedals and he'd be pedaling and crutching, while on the other leg ... I mean, he was just absolutely out of his mind. A- and-

Joe Rogan 16:44 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 16:44 ... and the doctors would be like, "Oh, you're healing faster than a 30-year-old." And I'm like, "Yeah, well, he's, 'cause he's just a cardio monster and so he's getting that blood flow." And, uh, and he, uh ... We were helicopter snowboarding in Chile the s- uh, last summer, not this one but the one before, and I was with a g- I'm with a guide and the guide goes, "Hey, you know, uh, how old's your buddy?" And I'm like, "Uh, he's 84." And he looked at me and he's like, "Yeah, no, I, no, I mean, but how old is he?" And I'm like, "He's 84." And he's like, "Yeah, he's 84. Like, check it out, buddy."

Joe Rogan 17:15 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 17:15 He's throwing, he's going fakie and, like, I mean, he's-

Joe Rogan 17:18 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 17:18 You know. He was, but he was our, you know, he was our poster child. He's our guy. We look at-

Joe Rogan 17:23 Right.

Laird Hamilton 17:23 ... we go ... I- I mean, and I've had a few of those, I think i- i- i- you know, that I've been exposed to in my life where there's guys that just ... Those are the guys that I always admired. I always admired the guys that just were always going full speed and never, never circam- you know, they didn't succumb to the, all that, all that pressure from society like, "Hey, you're old now. What are you gonna, still do that? What do you think you're a kid?" Just all the bullshit-

Joe Rogan 17:48 Right.

Laird Hamilton 17:48 ... that- that you can feed into, uh, a- and- and be a victim of.

Joe Rogan 17:53 Yeah, we have these preconceived notions of what it's like to be 30, what it's like to be 50, what it's like to be 85, and some people are like, "Yeah, you can fuck that. I'm not interested."

Laird Hamilton 18:03 Yeah, because they're never looking at age as some, uh, as some, like,... feeling.

Joe Rogan 18:09 Right, right, right.

Laird Hamilton 18:09 Like, they're never going, "Oh, 35, you feel like this. At 40, oh, you're slowing down now. Dah, dah, dah." You know?

Joe Rogan 18:14 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 18:14 And then you just... You lay down. It's like, you know, I, I always say if people stop doing something, like they go, "Oh, I'm gonna retire now. I'm getting old in the sport," it's really not that they're getting old, it's just that they made a decision that they don't wanna do it anymore, and they just use the age as a... Like a disclaimer, like, "Hey, I'm good." You know?

Joe Rogan 18:31 Yeah, for some folks, I think it's a mental tiredness.

Laird Hamilton 18:34 For sure.

Joe Rogan 18:35 And keeping up their enthusiasm is probably the difficult thing. And that's why I l- I think a lot of people look forward to retirement, right? They look forward to those golden years where they just holding hands and walking towards the sunset.

Laird Hamilton 18:46 Just jump on a sword. I mean-

Joe Rogan 18:48 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 18:48 No, I'm just... (laughs) I mean, that's just like at that point, you're just... Then you're just alive dead.

Joe Rogan 18:54 Yeah, exactly.

Laird Hamilton 18:54 You know, you're just... You're, you're dead, but you're alive. Like-

Joe Rogan 18:57 But I think for some people look forward to some day where they don't have to struggle.

Laird Hamilton 19:03 Then they can't be on Earth.

Joe Rogan 19:04 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 19:05 You can't be... You know, (laughs) I'm just saying. Well, you can't. I mean, like, I'm sorry, the system is a little bit designed-

Joe Rogan 19:11 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 19:12 ... to struggle. Everything that we do that's good for us-

Joe Rogan 19:14 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 19:15 ... has a, has a certain amount of stress. It's like, you wanna get in that sauna? You wanna get on that assault bike? You wanna jump in that ring?

Joe Rogan 19:19 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 19:19 You wanna hike that mountain? It's all stress-driven.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 19:22 And the fact is, that's our universe, that's the universe we live in. And, and so if you got some other... And, and, and, you know... And I, I appreciate let's hack our way through it.

Joe Rogan 19:31 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 19:31 And I think there's ways t- that hacking supports us. We can hack our way to... But only support the things that we're doing.

Joe Rogan 19:37 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 19:37 But thinking that you could just hack your way through and not actually suffer, it's impossible. You just-

Joe Rogan 19:42 No.

Laird Hamilton 19:43 (laughs) You gotta suffer. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:45 (laughs) I also think you don't appreciate the good times unless you suffer.

Laird Hamilton 19:50 Absolutely, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 19:51 I s- I think I appreciate food more when I work out. I appreciate life more. I, I like doing things more at- when I struggle.

Laird Hamilton 19:59 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 20:00 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 20:00 I could tell you... I, I know f- sitting down is an incredible thing, like, when you go, "Wow, this feels so good." (laughs) And I just-

Joe Rogan 20:06 Just to sit down, yeah, because you're straining so hard. Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 20:11 For sure.

Joe Rogan 20:11 But a lot of people don't recognize that. That's a lesson I think people really need to get drilled into their head.

Laird Hamilton 20:16 It's, it's not that tricky.

Joe Rogan 20:18 Right, right, right. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 20:18 No, I'm just saying this isn't rocket science.

Joe Rogan 20:20 (laughs) Right.

Laird Hamilton 20:20 This isn't, like, elaborate. It's available for everybody.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 20:23 Just move.

Joe Rogan 20:23 Yeah, just move.

Laird Hamilton 20:24 Keep... Just keep going, drive it hard.

Joe Rogan 20:26 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 20:27 And y- I can promise you, you'll, you'll, you'll sleep better.

Joe Rogan 20:30 Oh, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 20:30 Like, everybody... We have a lot of sleeping issues right now.

Joe Rogan 20:33 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 20:33 And I, I, I'm just like, "Well, people aren't tired enough."

Joe Rogan 20:36 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 20:36 Like, my daughter was like, "Oh, yeah, you know, I'm having a hard time sleeping," and now she's been banging tennis balls seven hours a day. And I'll tell you, she doesn't have a problem sleeping now.

Joe Rogan 20:43 Right, exactly.

Laird Hamilton 20:43 Like, she's sleeping real well. I'm like, "Yeah." And, and, and I... You know, I, I think that a lot of it's just a lack of movement.

Joe Rogan 20:50 I think so too.

Laird Hamilton 20:50 We're just... We just stop moving.

Joe Rogan 20:51 Yeah, and then your brain races because your body is not getting exhausted. So you develop all this anxiety and all this weirdness. Hunter-gatherers did not have the need for Ambien.

Laird Hamilton 21:02 I guarantee it. Yeah, there was...

Joe Rogan 21:03 Yeah, there is no... It is-

Laird Hamilton 21:04 There was no melatonin.

Joe Rogan 21:06 (laughs) There was no need. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 21:07 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 21:08 The melatonin was, was, you know, created in their retina from staring at the sun in the early morning light.

Joe Rogan 21:13 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 21:13 I mean, that's... They were up.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Right.

Laird Hamilton 21:15 They were moving, and they were up early, and they were, and they were, and they were going until dark. And then at dark, it was time to lay down, and then you just did that, and you were not... Sleep issues weren't a problem back then.

Joe Rogan 21:25 It's in- it's interesting, I'm learning from my dog. Because my dog is up first thing in the morning when the sun is up-

Laird Hamilton 21:31 He's the king.

Joe Rogan 21:31 ... and then when, when there's... It starts getting dark out, once he eats, man, he's just laying down. He's like, "What's up?"

Laird Hamilton 21:37 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:37 "I'm just chilling over here."

Laird Hamilton 21:38 Oh, yeah. Well, and I, I'm, uh, constantly studying my dog. I would've brought him, but he's getting his nails done today.

Joe Rogan 21:45 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 21:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:46 Is it really?

Laird Hamilton 21:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:47 Get in trouble.

Laird Hamilton 21:47 Yeah. Well, 'cause he's just ripping up the floor.

Joe Rogan 21:49 Got-

Laird Hamilton 21:49 He's got some hooks, but, uh... But I watch him. Never leaves his bed without stretching first.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Yeah, right.

Laird Hamilton 21:54 In the morning, first thing, down- uh, up dog, down dog.

Joe Rogan 21:57 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 21:57 Full up, down, dog. And then full speed, 80 miles an hour like a rocket, and then just right to the couch and lay down, and then just be totally sleeping. And then just up, full speed, back to the couch and lay down. I got... I'm go- I go, there's something to be said about that thing. A little stretch, full speed, lay down.

Joe Rogan 22:12 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 22:12 Full speed, lay down. Like...

Joe Rogan 22:14 But no warm-up.

Laird Hamilton 22:15 No warm-up.

Joe Rogan 22:15 That's-

Laird Hamilton 22:16 No warm-up.

Joe Rogan 22:17 But people need warm-up, do you agree?

Laird Hamilton 22:19 I don't know if I-

Joe Rogan 22:20 I don't know.

Laird Hamilton 22:21 I don't know. I don't know about-

Joe Rogan 22:21 I don't know.

Laird Hamilton 22:21 I don't know about warm-up. I think warm-up is being alive.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 22:24 I, I think, you know... I mean, I, I... We never warmed up-

Joe Rogan 22:29 What about with heavy weight, lifting?

Laird Hamilton 22:29 We never... What's that?

Joe Rogan 22:30 What about if you're gonna lift something heavy? Do you think that you should warm the muscles up first?

Laird Hamilton 22:35 Well, I think if you set the thing up and you put everything on and you set it all up-

Joe Rogan 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 22:39 ... you're already starting to warm up. And if you're psyching up-

Joe Rogan 22:41 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 22:41 ... and getting your brain ready to do something aggressive, I think that you've already... The adrenaline's already going.

Joe Rogan 22:48 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 22:48 And you got a lot of stuff. I mean, I know... If you just get up off a chair and walk over and try to grab a giant bar with a bunch of weight on it and lift it, that might be a problem.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Right.

Laird Hamilton 22:57 But that wouldn't be... You would never do that in nature when you're gonna lift something heavy, usually there'd be some lead-up to it, whether you walk to the place that you're gonna and you got the thing-

Joe Rogan 23:07 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 23:08 ... and, you know? I'm... I mean, you know, I, I don't know, I don't know about, about... 'Cause I think there's mixed opinions about... You know, people say, "Don't stretch before you work out."

Joe Rogan 23:16 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 23:16 And that's been the most recent thing. Before, it used to be all the loosen up before you work out. I'm like... I mean, my dog does down dog, you know, up dog, down dog, and that's only after he's laying down.

Joe Rogan 23:26 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 23:27 And then he just goes full speed. I mean...

Joe Rogan 23:29 Well, I know that if I do Muay Thai, if I'm hitting the bag or something like that, I don't d- go hard at first.

Laird Hamilton 23:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:35 I break a sweat.

Laird Hamilton 23:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:36 I, I do the first two rounds, I'm just shadow boxing.

Laird Hamilton 23:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:40 I'm just pu-... I mean, I don't fully full blast the bag until I'm sweaty.

Laird Hamilton 23:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:45 But that's just-

Laird Hamilton 23:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:46 ... my thoughts. I mean, I just... I feel like that's the way you're supposed to do it. That's what I've always been told.

Laird Hamilton 23:51 Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I, I think that... I think I would connect that more to part of it is because of what we are now.

Joe Rogan 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 23:57 'Cause we're-

Joe Rogan 23:57 We're sedentary and 'cause we're... Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 23:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:00 (laughs) Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 24:00 We're not, we're not what we... You know, we are not fully in our, in our nature essence.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 24:07 We're not, we're not wild, you know. If we were wild, I think we wouldn't need as much... Any warm-up.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 24:12 When you're wild, you don't need a warm-up. But I think because we're not...... uh, moving as much because if you're moving all the time, you'd already be warmed up. That would-

Joe Rogan 24:20 I would like to see a human from like 5,000 years ago. I'd love to be around like a hunter-gatherer and see what they looked like.

Laird Hamilton 24:27 Well, their pain threshold was crazy, first of all. Their, what they could endure, you know, their pain threshold was just ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 24:34 Right, because if they had broken bones-

Laird Hamilton 24:35 Like a broken arm-

Joe Rogan 24:35 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 24:35 ... and be like, we'd still be operating with broken stuff, no problem.

Joe Rogan 24:38 Yeah, what did they do?

Laird Hamilton 24:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:39 They just kind of like tied it up or something. I mean, I don't know what they did.

Laird Hamilton 24:42 That was, that was when they advanced into medical. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 Right, right. Yeah, right? A lot of them probably just hobbled around until it didn't hurt as much.

Laird Hamilton 24:50 Well, that's where inflammation came in.

Joe Rogan 24:52 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 24:52 Everything got inflamed, so they would hold it, you know-

Joe Rogan 24:55 In place.

Laird Hamilton 24:55 ... naturally, the body would hold it in position so that you-

Joe Rogan 24:58 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 24:58 I mean, inflammation's designed to kind of immobilize it, cast it. It would, you know... If it was your ankle, it would just get so swollen it couldn't move, but they'd still be on it.

Joe Rogan 25:06 Mm... Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 25:06 They'd still be m- rolling, it just they wouldn't be moving it around 'cause the body would naturally do that.

Joe Rogan 25:12 Yeah. The future of humans does not look so rosy when you really think about how we're slowly deteriorating, becoming these gelatinous balls of meat-

Laird Hamilton 25:21 And one-

Joe Rogan 25:21 ... and tissue.

Laird Hamilton 25:22 ... and the bodies are connected to the brains.

Joe Rogan 25:24 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 25:24 And so that's why we, uh, we have some mind issues too.

Joe Rogan 25:27 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 25:27 Because at the end of the day, the bodies aren't functioning correctly, so then it's not feeding the brain correctly.

Joe Rogan 25:31 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 25:32 And so the brain, that's why we... I, I mean, I think that when you're really physically well, then your thoughts are physically well.

Joe Rogan 25:40 I think it's definitely h- it definitely helps.

Laird Hamilton 25:42 I-

Joe Rogan 25:42 But people do not like to hear that.

Laird Hamilton 25:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:44 Do you notice that? Have you noticed that?

Laird Hamilton 25:46 Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 25:47 The, e- you don't, didn't even like, you like, you seem like a happy guy. You don't-

Laird Hamilton 25:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:50 I don't think you're on any medication. Are you on any-

Laird Hamilton 25:52 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:53 No. But some people who are-

Laird Hamilton 25:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:56 ... want to think like, "No, no, no. I have a medical problem, and I need this." Even if they don't exercise, they go, "No, no, no. You don't understand." And then wh- if I say, "Okay, but do you ever exercise?" They get mad at you.

Laird Hamilton 26:06 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 26:07 They get mad. Like-

Laird Hamilton 26:08 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 26:08 ... "You're, you're suggesting I'm lazy. You're suggesting I brought this upon myself because of my behavior."

Laird Hamilton 26:13 Yeah, no.

Joe Rogan 26:14 "No, I have a disease."

Laird Hamilton 26:15 Yeah. No, but again, I think that's a disclaimer. That's a way out to not have to take, be accountable.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 26:21 Be accountable, like, hey, i- that if I was out doing, moving and doing things, that it would actually make this go away. You know, I, I mean, I, I, I think that, uh-

Joe Rogan 26:31 (coughs)

Laird Hamilton 26:31 ... you know, I think a lot of, a lot of depression is connected to, to the... You know, I, I believe ice t- icing could cure a g- a big per- portion of, of depression, just because of the hormonal response to the system.

Joe Rogan 26:44 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 26:44 And that, you know, it, I mean, normally, when people are depressed, it's connected to some sort of hormone imbalance.

Joe Rogan 26:50 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 26:50 And to have a doctor try to figure out what that is, it's pretty elaborate.

Joe Rogan 26:54 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 26:54 It's pretty tricky. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:55 Well, they've shown in studies that regular exercise is as effective as SSRIs or more.

Laird Hamilton 27:02 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 27:02 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 27:03 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 27:03 And I think also diet because of inflammation. Like, the inflammation for sure leads to all sorts of different ailments, which could lead to a depressed feeling, a feeling of unwellness, you know.

Laird Hamilton 27:14 Well, just eat a bunch of garbage for a week and see how you feel.

Joe Rogan 27:17 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 27:17 I can tell- I'd be depressed. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:19 Yeah, yeah, or just drink some Laird's Superfood-

Laird Hamilton 27:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:21 ... turmeric coffee. That stuff's the shit, man.

Laird Hamilton 27:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:25 Mm. So the sauna thing, what is the benefit of getting it that hot?

Laird Hamilton 27:31 Well-

Joe Rogan 27:31 Because people are asking me, I'm like, "I don't know."

Laird Hamilton 27:31 I, I, I mean, I, I the pr- my, listen honestly, my problem is, is that, you know, if, if, if a lot is good, then even more is better.

Joe Rogan 27:39 That's me.

Laird Hamilton 27:39 You know, that's a little bit, that's my mentality, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:42 (laughs) It's right there. We're both stupid.

Laird Hamilton 27:43 Like, hey... (laughs) No, I'm just saying like-

Joe Rogan 27:45 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 27:46 ... hey, you know, if 10's good, then 20's gotta be-

Joe Rogan 27:48 20's gotta be better, right.

Laird Hamilton 27:49 ... e- even better. But I, you know, I think part of it is the natural evolution. If you're sitting there doing time at, you know, 180 degrees and you, and you can go in there and you're, you know, you're hanging out, eh, and, and then just 20 minutes, it's 30 minutes, so you might as well just try to turn it up. And, and, and my understanding is, is that the Europeans, I mean, I'd, you know, you look at a sweat lodge, and you, I mean, it, it, it ain't 180, uh, you know, if you go into any kind of sweat lodge. If you go to Europe, all the saunas are much hotter. Like, it, it's like you go into a Russian, you know-

Joe Rogan 28:21 Mm...

Laird Hamilton 28:21 ... steam thing, it's not like those things are, you know... I, I, I think that, that they're pretty conservative with it. I think, I think you just listen to your body.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 28:29 If you go in there and you start hallucinating, you might wanna step out, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:32 Right.

Laird Hamilton 28:32 You might be like, "Hey, you know, uh, maybe I ate something wrong or maybe I need to just give my body a break." But I think you just use your, you know, use your, your, your own feeling, uh, a- as a, as your guide. And, and, you know, I know that I, if I, if I'm hide- properly hydrated before I go, my tolerance is substantially greater.

Joe Rogan 28:52 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 28:52 Like, I can really measure it.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 28:53 I can be hydrated, go in, and be like, "Oh yeah, no problem." And I can go in dehydrated and feel wonky and be like, "Mm, yeah, I'm not as good," so-

Joe Rogan 29:01 Right. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. I definitely have adapted. I've definitely adapted to 200 degrees because when I go to yoga now, it does not seem nearly as hot. 105 degrees, even at the end of the class, I'm like, "This is interesting." I was thinking at the last class, I was like, "This doesn't feel that bad."

Laird Hamilton 29:15 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 29:16 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 29:16 It, well, that shows you right there that you're adapting and then all of a sudden your tolerance... You know, uh, the thing I really like about the sauna is I think it really plays into, into overheating as an athlete-

Joe Rogan 29:27 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 29:27 ... that over, you know, you overheat.

Joe Rogan 29:29 Sure.

Laird Hamilton 29:29 And that's usually when you have issues, right?

Joe Rogan 29:31 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 29:31 As you overheat and then you, and then you, your performance is i- is encumbered, right? You just-

Joe Rogan 29:37 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 29:37 ... it, it, it... And so the more your tolerance is for the heat, the less y- the more you can handle overheating. Pretty soon, you don't overheat and then you just don't have that... 'Cause that, that, that's one of the factors that gets an athlete, I think, is in, in any performance is you overheat if whether you're fighting or marathon running or basketball, any, any sport when you start to overheat your, that's usually when you're, you're toast.

Joe Rogan 30:00 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 30:00 You're, you're done. You start losing your motor skills and your tol- if you can build that tolerance up and I think, like you said, hey, if you go in 200 and 220 and then all of a sudden you're at yoga, uh, you know, you're at hot yoga and it's 105 and you're just like, (whistles) you know, camping out-

Joe Rogan 30:16 Yeah, it seems like nothing.

Laird Hamilton 30:16 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:16 It really does make a giant difference.

Laird Hamilton 30:17 It does.

Joe Rogan 30:18 And I've only been doing it at 200 for a couple months now.

Laird Hamilton 30:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:20 Really and 210 like for, like I said, the last few days.

Laird Hamilton 30:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:24 But you have been doing it this hot for how long?

Laird Hamilton 30:26 Well, I've been doing it for a while.... like I've been doing, it's been af- over the last couple years. You know, I did one, uh, I did a protocol that, uh, I heard on, uh, Dr. Rhonda Patrick's, uh, show, and sh- and it was, uh, holding, uh, a one-hour, uh, a one-hour straight at somewhere between 170 to 180.

Joe Rogan 30:46 Whoa.

Laird Hamilton 30:47 So that's another, and you, if you do that 10 days in a row, I was doing it twice a day for 10 days in a row, and you're supposed to get, like, some 1600% hormonal boost, like your whole body just goes into this radical hormone boost.

Joe Rogan 31:00 So 170 to 180, somewhere in that range?

Laird Hamilton 31:02 Yep.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Interesting.

Laird Hamilton 31:03 170, one day, one hour straight, and I was doing that, and I, and I did it twice a day for, uh, 10 days in a row-

Joe Rogan 31:09 Wow.

Laird Hamilton 31:10 ... and, and, and, uh, and, and, and at the end of that, you got a different gear. It's like all of a sudden you got OD in your, in your sh- in your-

Joe Rogan 31:18 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 31:19 ... in your gearbox, you know?

Joe Rogan 31:20 Interesting. Well, it definitely increases the red blood cell count, correct?

Laird Hamilton 31:24 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 31:25 I mean, I don't know all the science. I just usually go off of, you know, uh, I usually go off of, uh, of instinct-

Joe Rogan 31:31 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 31:31 ... and then, and then I, and then sometimes it gets validated by, by science. And, and so at the end, you know, you, you, I mean, I, I, I think, and, and I, and there really isn't any s- any studies on it, but I truly believe that, that, that heat is better after performance for recovery-

Joe Rogan 31:50 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 31:50 ... than ice. I mean, I think ice is comfortable, um, I, well, I had my, uh, I, I have a whole thing about pain, a relationship with pain, and, and I was doing a thing with, uh, I had a hip, hip replacement, and, uh, I was set up to do all this icing, uh, before, and, and then I learned that h- icing suppressed the, the, the, uh, healing hormone IGF-1. There's a healing hormone-

Joe Rogan 32:12 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 32:12 ... that helps your body heal, and pain is, kicks that hormone off. That's how the body knows. So when you suppress pain, you stop that healing.

Joe Rogan 32:19 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 32:19 So you go in ice, you suppress that hormonal release of IGF-1 that's the healing hormone, a- and all of a sudden it, it's gonna slow your healing down. So if you do it 'cause it makes you comfortable, like, hey, if you've been, you know, running around and you're overheating and you're gonna go in an ice tub 'cause it feels good-

Joe Rogan 32:35 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 32:35 ... that's one thing, but if you think that it's gonna benefit you, I'm not sure. I don't know yet. I think heat could be the better benefit because you've got heat shock proteins which deal with damaged cells and for all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 32:47 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 32:47 Um, and I'm not, listen, I, this is just stuff that I hear-

Joe Rogan 32:49 Right.

Laird Hamilton 32:49 ... that I'm feeling. And then-

Joe Rogan 32:51 Full disclaimer, we're both not doctors.

Laird Hamilton 32:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:54 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 32:54 Full, yeah. Dennis Miller, this is my opinion. I could be wrong, of course.

Joe Rogan 32:56 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 32:56 So (laughs) you know, the, uh, but, uh, you know, so that, that, that, uh, and, and, and then they talk about growth hormone. That, that your body produces growth hormone in the heat, right, as another one of the side effects. And so, uh, from my, again, from my understanding, and I'm not a doctor, um, so I, I, when I hear that I go, "Well, then heat should be the thing you do," 'cause after every game, every football, every basketball player, every athlete goes right to the ice tub.

Joe Rogan 33:22 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 33:22 And I go, "If you're going there for comfort, okay, cool, that's great." But if you think that that's actually the thing that's really benefiting, you know, really gonna bring you the best recovery, maybe it, maybe heat's gonna bring you the best recovery, but it's gonna be miserable 'cause last thing you wanna do after you finish a workout is go sit in a hotbox.

Joe Rogan 33:38 Right.

Laird Hamilton 33:38 You're just not-

Joe Rogan 33:39 Yeah, interesting.

Laird Hamilton 33:40 ... gonna be happy.

Joe Rogan 33:41 But they, but for injuries, though. For injuries, they say you should reduce the inflammation. But if what you're saying, that, that's interesting, right?

Laird Hamilton 33:47 Well, the more pain-

Joe Rogan 33:48 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 33:49 ... the more, you know, you know the old saying, "No pain, no gain."

Joe Rogan 33:51 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 33:51 Right?

Joe Rogan 33:52 Is that true, though?

Laird Hamilton 33:53 No, no pain, no gain. No pain, no gain.

Joe Rogan 33:55 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 33:55 I mean, everything's painful. Like, if you go in the heat, it's discomfortable. You go in a workout, you get sore.

Joe Rogan 33:59 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 33:59 I mean, no pain, no gain. So if we go with the old, that old, you know, no pain, no gain, I believe that the pain is associated with the healing because of that hormonal response that pain brings into you. So, um, I would attribute, like I had a s- a, a fast recovery, but I, I attribute some of it is because that I, I was not suppressing any of the pain. So if, I think if you take pain meds-

Joe Rogan 34:21 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 34:21 ... that's suppressing healing.

Joe Rogan 34:23 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 34:23 So, so if you say, "Hey, I'm so uncomfortable, I gotta pop pain pills to, to endure this because it's so hard," well, then just extend the healing, that you're just gonna... And, and the more you suppress the pain, no matter which way you do it, whether it's ice, pain pills, whatever it is, I believe, the longer you extend the healing. The more pain you can take-

Joe Rogan 34:42 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 34:42 ... I mean, inflammation is the marker for that healing hormone. So again, reduce inflammation. I don't know if th- that's, that's, again, I, I would like to, uh, a doctor to, and somebody to tell me that really has a study that's, that they know, that they've really looked at-

Joe Rogan 34:57 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 34:57 ... to tell me that that's really working, that, that the icing... I mean, i- if you do it immediately right when you get, you know, you sh- snap your ankle and you go right in an ice tub, b- bucket and keep it from fully, uh, you know, inflaming, maybe, uh, in a, in that instantaneous.

Joe Rogan 35:14 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 35:14 But doing it over days and it-

Joe Rogan 35:17 Right.

Laird Hamilton 35:17 ... I think that's just pain. I think that's just comfortable, make you more comfortable.

Joe Rogan 35:20 (laughs) That's interesting because you always see basketball players with ice on their shoulders, ice on their knees, like right after games-

Laird Hamilton 35:26 Well, comfort-

Joe Rogan 35:27 ... 'cause they have to play-

Laird Hamilton 35:27 Comfortable.

Joe Rogan 35:28 Yeah, I was just thinking th- they have to play so many games in a row, though. I mean, they're-

Laird Hamilton 35:31 Yeah, but it, but it's also comfort.

Joe Rogan 35:32 Right, right, right.

Laird Hamilton 35:33 Comfort, like I mean, I, I think it's 'cause it feels good.

Joe Rogan 35:36 Right.

Laird Hamilton 35:36 If your shoulder's all jacked up and you numb it, you know, just like a pain pill would do-

Joe Rogan 35:41 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 35:41 ... this is just a topical numbing, icing's just creating a... They, you know the guy that, uh, that created RICE, which is like-

Joe Rogan 35:47 Rest, ice, c- compression, and elevation.

Laird Hamilton 35:50 Yeah, he came out last year and said, "I was all wrong."

Joe Rogan 35:53 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 35:53 So, no, he did. That guy came out just-

Joe Rogan 35:55 Last year?

Laird Hamilton 35:56 Well, in the last two, couple years, he's-

Joe Rogan 35:57 He should feel really bad.

Laird Hamilton 35:58 Well, I'm-

Joe Rogan 35:59 Everybody's been saying it forever. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 36:00 (laughs) I'm saying, but, so he came out and said, you know, that he, he was, you know, that he, he, he takes it all back. So, uh, you know, I don't know. I, I mean, I just think bl- I, I think there's no absolutes. I, I don't, I, I, but I, I, I'm, I'd be interested. I've been trying to learn about it, like, "Hey, can you really tell me what really is the best thing?" It, or, or maybe it's heat and ice combo, you know, that, that heat and ice combo because that does so much flushing to the system.

Joe Rogan 36:26 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 36:27 You know, squeeze down, the ice squeezes everything, and then all of a sudden the heat expand.

Joe Rogan 36:31 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 36:31 So you're contraction, expansion. And that, I know that that is a, you know, but that takes energy too. That tires you down-

Joe Rogan 36:38 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 36:38 ... more than-... you know, than the- than the heat. But the heat-

Joe Rogan 36:42 Do you- you do do ice bath, heat, ice bath, heat, back-to-back?

Laird Hamilton 36:46 Yeah, I'll do, like sometimes I'll take... I'll do it on a Sunday, I'll do like seven rounds of that stuff.

Joe Rogan 36:51 (laughs) How much time?

Laird Hamilton 36:51 You know, nine rounds, you just get-

Joe Rogan 36:53 How much time are you spending?

Laird Hamilton 36:54 You get... You get li- You get... You know, you're... Well, that's why we want the intensity, right?

Joe Rogan 36:57 Right.

Laird Hamilton 36:58 So the colder it is, the shorter you have to be there.

Joe Rogan 37:01 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 37:01 And the hotter it is, the shorter you have to be there.

Joe Rogan 37:03 Right.

Laird Hamilton 37:03 So if you're hanging out... So if you could get it down to 15 minutes, and, you know, three to five minutes... Let's say three minutes in the ice and 15 minutes in the- in the sauna, then all of a sudden, you know, let's say 20 minutes a round, then you're t- You know, then here- here you go, you got, you know, two and a half, three hours, you know?

Joe Rogan 37:20 Mm. That's why 170 into 180, you do a whole hour versus-

Laird Hamilton 37:24 Yeah. Yeah, but that's a-

Joe Rogan 37:25 ... 210.

Laird Hamilton 37:25 ... whole different protocol.

Joe Rogan 37:26 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 37:26 That was just a... One I heard about-

Joe Rogan 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 37:28 ... and then I just try... I- I tried it. Pa- Part of it is 'cause hard to stay in that thing for an hour straight at 170. I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 37:36 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 37:36 That's not an easy task.

Joe Rogan 37:38 Are you listening to anything in there? Are you... Or you just-

Laird Hamilton 37:41 Just the beat of my heart and my (laughs) legs.

Joe Rogan 37:43 (laughs) Do you bring anything in? Music or anything?

Laird Hamilton 37:45 Yeah, I'll listen to music or something like that-

Joe Rogan 37:48 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 37:48 ... or- or a podcast, or get somebody else to suffer with me.

Joe Rogan 37:51 Oh, right, right, right.

Laird Hamilton 37:51 Yeah. Just to get some... Try to- try to su-

Joe Rogan 37:53 That's hard.

Laird Hamilton 37:54 Try to get somebody else, and maybe they come in for half, and then they're back out, and then they come in for the other part or something.

Joe Rogan 37:59 When I'm on-

Laird Hamilton 37:59 You know?

Joe Rogan 37:59 ... the road, I try to get comedians to come in the sauna with me at a hotel, and it's only like 150, 160, and they're like, "I'm out." I'm like, "You're out?"

Laird Hamilton 38:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:07 "You've been here for 15 minutes saying shit."

Laird Hamilton 38:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:10 (laughs) It's so easy.

Laird Hamilton 38:10 Well, it's all... But it's all what you're... It's- it's in-

Joe Rogan 38:13 Right.

Laird Hamilton 38:13 ... your brain. It's in your mind. It's- it's... We're so, uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 38:18 Comfort seeking.

Laird Hamilton 38:18 Domesticated.

Joe Rogan 38:19 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 38:19 We're so domesticated. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:21 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 38:21 We're s- "Oh, it's hot, it's cold, it's this."

Joe Rogan 38:24 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 38:24 And, you know, we're just... We're- we're-

Joe Rogan 38:26 Now, is this something that's you, or is this the- the whole surfing community? Are they into this kinda stuff?

Laird Hamilton 38:33 Uh, no, I mean, I- I- I... Well, you know what's interesting? Is- is, be- because I'm a surfer, obviously everybody thinks, "Oh, well, you know all the surfers and you're friends with the surfers." I'm really actually, I am not. I really, I'm kind of outside of the community itself. I have sur- friends that surf, but I'm so not part of, you know... A- and in my career, I haven't been part of the industry of surfing, uh, and, uh, really. So i- i- in a way, I'm... I mean, I have friends that surf that come and do it, and we've definitely... There's been some influence into s- I mean, surfers in general, at least t- the good ones, are- are, you know, training and- and- and using these ice/heat protocols. And so, they're- they're- they're, uh, you know, they're- they're aware and- and motivated. Uh, but the- but surfing in general is, you know... Uh, I mean, I don't even know what half those guys are doing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:23 (laughs) Well, I would think that they would be looking to you. I mean, if- if I was a young surfer and I'd say, "Man, I fucking love surfing. I'd like to be doing this when I'm 55." "What's Laird Hamilton doing?"

Laird Hamilton 39:32 Yeah, but I don't know if... I- I think sometimes the, you know... I mean, I think for a lot of... Obviously, it's changed now, but in the past, I mean, you know, a- and it happens a lot with the younger people in general, uh, is just like, "Don't tell me what to do. I can eat whatever I want and-"

Joe Rogan 39:47 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 39:47 "... do whatever I want."

Joe Rogan 39:48 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 39:49 "I can go to Taco Bell and Burger King and- and still, uh, and stay up all night and still, you know, rip, you know, or do, or do my thing."

Joe Rogan 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 39:57 And- and it's true probably in every sport. Um, and then- and then, you know, I always say there's 1,000, you know, 20-year-olds, and then there's 500 30 years olds, and then there's-

Joe Rogan 40:06 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 40:06 ... 250 40-year-olds, and then there's like... You know, and then you just go as you go. And, uh, there's less and less, and it... You know, I always loved that, uh, the term, the victory through attrition, you know?

Joe Rogan 40:16 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 40:16 When you're just the last guy.

Joe Rogan 40:17 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 40:17 If you're just the last guy and you're standing, it... You don't have to be any good, you just win.

Joe Rogan 40:21 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 40:21 You're like the winner. You're like, "You won, you're the only guy left." You know, that kinda thing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:25 Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 40:27 I like that.

Joe Rogan 40:27 So this is just you... You've been following this just to improve your physical performance just for life.

Laird Hamilton 40:33 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 40:34 Absolutely. And- and, uh, you know, I- I think I really cheri- I cherish, uh, feeling good. I cherish feeling good. Like, I really enjoy feeling good.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 40:45 And so, that drives me towards, you know, wanting... And like I said, either whether I had Paul Chek years ago, uh, went and did an assessment with him, and you know-

Joe Rogan 40:54 He's an interesting guy.

Laird Hamilton 40:55 Very, yeah. And it-

Joe Rogan 40:56 Been watching his stuff a lot online.

Laird Hamilton 40:58 Yeah, and- and, uh, him and I had a- a- a- an instant connection. And- and... But, you know, I- I love the philosophical approach to certain things. Like, he- he said, and this had a huge impact on me, you know, 25 years ago. He was like, "You know, the three white devils are white flour, white sugar, and white milk." And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 41:16 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 41:17 ... "Okay." Like-

Joe Rogan 41:18 Chocolate milk, drink that.

Laird Hamilton 41:19 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:19 Is that what you're saying?

Laird Hamilton 41:20 Yeah, yeah. Chocolate milk.

Joe Rogan 41:21 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 41:21 Just put cacao in it. But if you put raw cacao and raw milk together, that's a powerful drink.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Yeah, it is, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 41:27 That's for real. But if you put dead milk-

Joe Rogan 41:30 Homogenized, pasteurized.

Laird Hamilton 41:32 ... and- and-

Joe Rogan 41:32 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 41:32 ... just abused.

Joe Rogan 41:33 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 41:33 And then you... And then you take some really bad cacao, if there's any at all in it, with a bunch of who knows, you can't pronounce it.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 41:39 You know, he said, uh, "If it wasn't here 10,000 years ago, don't eat it." Uh, "If- if you can't-"

Joe Rogan 41:45 Interesting.

Laird Hamilton 41:45 "... pronounce it, don't eat it." You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:47 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 41:47 And then the three white devils. I mean, that's a philosophical-

Joe Rogan 41:49 I'm having a hard time with turmeric, though.

Laird Hamilton 41:51 Yeah. Why?

Joe Rogan 41:52 It's just... I- I... The word.

Laird Hamilton 41:54 Oh.

Joe Rogan 41:54 I struggle pronouncing it.

Laird Hamilton 41:55 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:57 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 41:57 But it was here 10,000 years ago, so you're covered.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Yeah, so I'm fine.

Laird Hamilton 41:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:00 Yeah. Those are good pieces of advice, though.

Laird Hamilton 42:02 Yeah, but just to look at food that way, it's like-

Joe Rogan 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 42:04 ... people go, "What's your diet?" I go, "Plants and animals."

Joe Rogan 42:07 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 42:07 Plants and animals. Like (laughs) what? You know, like-

Joe Rogan 42:09 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 42:09 ... don't make it difficult. Don't be like, "Well, I eat this and that." I- I think that the stress around that stuff is- is crazy. But I- I- I- I- I really believe that to truly be... To have optimum performance and to be, and to be optimum, that you have to have-... the whole f- every spoke in the tire, that you need every single spoke, that you have to have a good relations with your family.

Joe Rogan 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 42:34 You gotta have love and you gotta have good things with your kids, and you gotta have friends, and you gotta have your health, and you gotta sleep well, and you gotta be hydrated, and you gotta work out, and you got- and, and you gotta have a, you know, your business thing, and you gotta have... I think you just have to have all these things to really have balance. And I think if you- if, if one of the spokes isn't tight, that there's a bump in the wheel, and then you're just not gonna-

Joe Rogan 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 42:56 I don't truly believe that, that you, you're performing at your optimum because you n- your head needs to be clear when you go into your performance, whatever that looks like.

Joe Rogan 43:06 I think that's excellent advice. I think that makes a lot of sense and it definitely keeps your mind clear. You know, you have your bases covered.

Laird Hamilton 43:12 Covered.

Joe Rogan 43:12 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 43:12 You're not just... You're not here but there but somewhere else. I mean, and I know I've dealt with not being- having all the spokes good and I know that the- how that feels. And I know when it's good, you're, you're clear, you're good.

Joe Rogan 43:24 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 43:24 You're, you're, you're, you're... And it's how we're meant to be. I mean, we're meant to have that be real clean. We're meant to have that- there be some-

Joe Rogan 43:32 Balance.

Laird Hamilton 43:32 ... balance. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:33 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 43:34 Gotta have it.

Joe Rogan 43:35 Yeah, that's why, I mean, even overworking. I mean, people think that, you know, over-

Laird Hamilton 43:39 Well, they think that's a badge of honor.

Joe Rogan 43:40 Yeah, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 43:41 Like, "Oh, yeah, I worked my thing and I don't sleep and da, da, da." I'm like, "Yeah, well-"

Joe Rogan 43:44 You're killing yourself.

Laird Hamilton 43:45 Then you're compromising yourself.

Joe Rogan 43:46 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 43:46 I told Elon Musk that.

Joe Rogan 43:48 Did you?

Laird Hamilton 43:48 Yeah. I was- I went to SpaceX one time and I pulled him aside. He was standing. And I go, "Hey, you know, you gotta take care of this." Put my hand on his chest. I just go, "You gotta take care of this, bud. You gotta take care of you."

Joe Rogan 43:57 What did he say?

Laird Hamilton 43:58 He just... Yeah, I th- I don't know if he understood what-

Joe Rogan 44:00 He's a robot.

Laird Hamilton 44:00 Yeah, he- I don't think he understood me.

Joe Rogan 44:02 He's barely, barely a person.

Laird Hamilton 44:03 I'm just saying I don't think he... No, I just, I don't think he-

Joe Rogan 44:05 (laughs) And I say that with all due respect and, and-

Laird Hamilton 44:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:07 ... you know, complimentary.

Laird Hamilton 44:07 But I don't think he understood what I meant. I, I, I, I didn't... I felt like, you know, as someone like that, if they were really taking good care of themselves, getting the right sleep-

Joe Rogan 44:15 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 44:15 ... getting, eating the right food, getting a workout, all those things, imagine-

Joe Rogan 44:20 Right.

Laird Hamilton 44:20 ... imagine.

Joe Rogan 44:21 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 44:21 Like if they can do what they're doing, you know, burning it on both ends, imagine what they could do fully balanced.

Joe Rogan 44:27 Well, I don't think he wants to do any more than what he's doing. I just think he's so obsessed with getting Tesla to run correctly.

Laird Hamilton 44:33 (laughs) Well-

Joe Rogan 44:33 And when, when he was sleeping-

Laird Hamilton 44:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:35 ... on the floor of the Tesla factory and working 17 hours a day, I mean, that's, that is- that's an insane person. I mean, he was just there all day long trying to make it work. And obviously it does work.

Laird Hamilton 44:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:46 They're amazing cars.

Laird Hamilton 44:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:47 Everything's... It's, it's beneficial-

Laird Hamilton 44:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:50 ... th- this drive that he has. But I agree with you, like for overall enjoyment of life, that's not the way to go about it.

Laird Hamilton 44:56 Well, and I think you have a blockage there though too.

Joe Rogan 44:58 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 44:58 I think if you don't- can't pull back and look at it from a distance-

Joe Rogan 45:03 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 45:03 ... y- when you're in it-

Joe Rogan 45:04 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 45:04 ... I think you get too detailed and then you can't, you know, you, you can't be... I think you, I think it could be better because of that.

Joe Rogan 45:12 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 45:12 I think maybe, maybe it'd be profitable, you know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:15 (laughs) It's hard, man. It's a hard fucking business. Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 45:18 Well, yeah. I mean, you're, you're competing against, you know, the big boys.

Joe Rogan 45:22 Yeah, right. But, but, but what's interesting is he-

Laird Hamilton 45:25 The oil.

Joe Rogan 45:26 ... even though they are doing that, they've managed to- he's managed to make something that's so different than anything else.

Laird Hamilton 45:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:32 Do you have one?

Laird Hamilton 45:32 D- no, I don't.

Joe Rogan 45:33 Fuck, man. They're crazy.

Laird Hamilton 45:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:35 I, I, I was re- reluctant.

Laird Hamilton 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 I totally walked by one-

Laird Hamilton 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 ... when he did the podcast.

Laird Hamilton 45:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:39 But I was like, "Goddamn it, I like muscle cars. I like hearing engines." But I drove that thing, I was like, "Oh, other cars are stupid. They're all stupid."

Laird Hamilton 45:46 Stupid. They are.

Joe Rogan 45:46 They're archaic- They are.

Laird Hamilton 45:47 ... compared to that thing.

Joe Rogan 45:48 They are.

Laird Hamilton 45:48 It's effortless.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Well, and, and all the- and you see all the companies going that way now.

Laird Hamilton 45:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:51 Now you- Oh, yeah. ... you can see... I mean, w- uh, uh, we were... 'cause, uh, my buddy Wildman and I were into electric stuff and, uh, and we went, and there was a guy that had electric dragster. And we went down i- with this electric dragster and it just smoked any top fuel dragster like beyond. (blows air) And, but it didn't make noise, so no one wanted to watch it. (laughs) So, I mean, it went (blows air) and you're like, "What happened?" Uh, no, no smell- Right.

Laird Hamilton 46:13 ... no noise-

Joe Rogan 46:14 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 46:14 ... no flames.

Joe Rogan 46:15 Right.

Laird Hamilton 46:15 You know, no, no-

Joe Rogan 46:16 All the good stuff.

Laird Hamilton 46:16 ... no burning gas, no, no-

Joe Rogan 46:18 No pollution.

Laird Hamilton 46:19 Yeah, no pollution. So people were like, "Ah, that's no fun." So...

Joe Rogan 46:22 Yeah, but when you drive a Tesla-

Laird Hamilton 46:24 Mm.

Joe Rogan 46:24 ... like I have a- the Model S-

Laird Hamilton 46:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:26 ... the P100D I think it was called.

Laird Hamilton 46:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:28 When you drive it, it's effortless.

Laird Hamilton 46:30 Effortless.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Like everything just- you just go where you wanna go. Like-

Laird Hamilton 46:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:33 ... "I like to be over there." (whooshes) It's like a video game.

Laird Hamilton 46:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Like all of a sudden-

Laird Hamilton 46:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:36 ... you're over there.

Laird Hamilton 46:37 Well, you have to get used to it 'cause I've been in them-

Joe Rogan 46:39 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 46:39 ... and, and driven, driven them.

Joe Rogan 46:40 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 46:41 And it's interesting how the body has to acclimate to the acceleration-

Joe Rogan 46:44 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 46:44 ... because y- you're used to that jolting-

Joe Rogan 46:46 It's like a rollercoaster.

Laird Hamilton 46:46 ... that shifting, you know-

Joe Rogan 46:48 Uh-huh.

Laird Hamilton 46:48 ... first gear, second gear, third gear, all that delay. Like a- it's like AC versus DC.

Joe Rogan 46:52 Right.

Laird Hamilton 46:52 You know, normal cars are like AC, a little gap between the power. And when you get that, you know, i- i- i- i- it's, it's the body has to get used to the... I'm still not totally okay with not looking where you're going and just flipping it on autopilot, but-

Joe Rogan 47:05 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 47:05 ... you know, (laughs) I guess that's true.

Joe Rogan 47:07 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 47:07 The next generation, you know.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Well, that's fun on the highway-

Laird Hamilton 47:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:10 ... but, you know, I look where I'm going, I keep my hand on the wheel. But it is fun to like shut 10% of your brain off and just let the car kind of handle the speed and-

Laird Hamilton 47:16 And one, it does it well.

Joe Rogan 47:18 Does it well. Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 47:18 Does it well. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:19 Yeah. Well, I- I ju- like I said, I think you need a person who's as obsessed as Elon Musk is-

Laird Hamilton 47:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:24 ... to make something like that.

Laird Hamilton 47:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:25 But I agree with you-

Laird Hamilton 47:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:26 ... if, i- if he wants to enjoy his life-

Laird Hamilton 47:29 Well, just live longer.

Joe Rogan 47:30 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 47:30 Maybe have more ideas-

Joe Rogan 47:31 R- right, right, right.

Laird Hamilton 47:31 ... have more influence. Like just be... I, I, I am only speaking that way. I just mean in, in the way of optimizing him, right?

Joe Rogan 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 47:37 Optimizing him for- because of his- h- he's so amazing-

Joe Rogan 47:41 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 47:41 ... that, "Okay, let's optimize your amazingness by, by making you, like, be healthier."

Joe Rogan 47:47 Right.

Laird Hamilton 47:47 "Like be- take care of yourself so you can be around longer and maybe do more great things," right? So it's, it's, again, I, I, I, you know, I'm just speaking personally about when you try to look at optimization, right? Like you're here, you only get so long, you know, what are you doing and, and are you really optimizing it by, by, you know, burn- by, by taxing the system and not a- not getting all of it- the out of it that you... You know, but I guess in a way it's kind of like unhappiness, you know, people use that as a workout.

Joe Rogan 48:15 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 48:15 So that's a little- that makes you tired and you're- get hungry and, you know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:20 (laughs) Yeah, I guess.

Laird Hamilton 48:21 There's always that.

Joe Rogan 48:22 Well, it's the choices you make, right? Like sometimes you just get stuck in the momentum of the choice that you made and it's very difficult to, like, take that pause and go, "Okay, am I doing this the right way? Maybe I need to reset. Maybe we need to just take some time to really consider if this is making me happy-

Laird Hamilton 48:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:37 ... and how many years I'm gonna be able to do this and sustain it."

Laird Hamilton 48:40 Yeah, well that's a tricky thing.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Yeah. Right? That's a, that's a, that's a self- self-, uh, you know, analyzing yourself- Mm.

Laird Hamilton 48:48 ... and putting that up is, I, I think it's easier just to keep going the direction you were going. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:52 Sure. Just caffeinate, take some Adderall, and keep hitting the gas.

Laird Hamilton 48:56 Go full speed.

Joe Rogan 48:56 (laughs) yeah. Keep it... How long have you been living in Hawaii?

Laird Hamilton 49:00 Uh, well, my mom took me from San Francisco when I was six months old.

Joe Rogan 49:03 Whoa.

Laird Hamilton 49:04 So...

Joe Rogan 49:05 Wow.

Laird Hamilton 49:06 Pretty much, it was only a technicality wha- that I wasn't born there, which actually worked against me 'cause, you know, when you're not born then... When you're not born there, then you're not from there.

Joe Rogan 49:16 Right, the locals.

Laird Hamilton 49:16 So they're like, "Oh, you're not born here."

Joe Rogan 49:17 Right, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 49:18 And you're like, "Oh yeah, but I, I've been here since I was, you know, since I can remember." So let's just put it that way.

Joe Rogan 49:23 Right, that's interesting.

Laird Hamilton 49:23 But my memory actually worked.

Joe Rogan 49:24 They still hold it against you, the six months that you weren't there?

Laird Hamilton 49:26 Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:27 "We missed you, bro."

Laird Hamilton 49:28 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:28 "Six months, where were you?"

Laird Hamilton 49:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You weren't-

Joe Rogan 49:30 Shitting your pants. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 49:30 You didn't come out of your mother's here in this-

Joe Rogan 49:33 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 49:33 ... in this state, but...

Joe Rogan 49:34 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 49:34 But yeah, since I was a little kid, I mean, I, I, my mom took me, uh, I was born in San Francisco and she took me when I was a few months old.

Joe Rogan 49:41 I have a theory about people from Hawaii. There's a groundedness that they seem to exhibit that is universal. It's almost you, you, you very rarely find completely frivolous, like, d- dopey people that live in Hawaii.

Laird Hamilton 49:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:54 They, they're not... Well, I mean-

Laird Hamilton 49:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:56 ... I'm sure you find some people that are not that smart, but you, there's a groundedness-

Laird Hamilton 50:01 There is.

Joe Rogan 50:01 ... that so many of them have-

Laird Hamilton 50:02 There-

Joe Rogan 50:02 ... because they're on a volcano-

Laird Hamilton 50:04 Yeah, well, and-

Joe Rogan 50:05 ... in the middle of the ocean.

Laird Hamilton 50:05 ... and, and, and, you know, it's interesting that you talk about that 'cause yesterday we were having a conversation about what is that, right? And we have a ter- couple terms. One of them is mana, which is the power from the land. Another one is aloha, which is our kind of a spirit of how people act, uh, from Hawaii, but I believe it has a lot to do with islanders. I think islanders have that.

Joe Rogan 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 50:24 And, uh, and it has a lot to do with, uh, it has a lot to do with the ocean-

Joe Rogan 50:29 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 50:29 ... being around the ocean, that the ocean's surrounding you.

Joe Rogan 50:32 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 50:32 And the ocean is the most conductive substance on Earth, so elec- electrically and there's all this things, so you get influenced by this. You know, and I think energetically, the nature is so powerful. I think it puts us into a... There's a certain, uh, kind of humility that you have-

Joe Rogan 50:49 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 50:49 ... when you're in that, you're next to a volcano that's 14,000 foot and you got a 2,000-foot waterfall and you got a giant wave. I mean, this is stuff that kinda goes, "Oh yeah, we're just little ants."

Joe Rogan 50:58 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 50:59 "We're just little specks and we don't..."

Joe Rogan 51:01 It's humbling, but it's also inspiring 'cause it's so beautiful.

Laird Hamilton 51:03 And en- and energizing.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 51:05 Gives you power.

Joe Rogan 51:06 Right.

Laird Hamilton 51:06 The man- the mana. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:08 Yeah, I've always wondered why people that live in beach communities are, they're so chill. Like I've wondered, is that because of just the humility that you get when you just look in the ocean?

Laird Hamilton 51:17 Well-

Joe Rogan 51:17 You're looking over it.

Laird Hamilton 51:18 ... The Blue Mind, have you ever seen that book?

Joe Rogan 51:19 No.

Laird Hamilton 51:19 It's called The Blue Mind. Um, the guy's pretty interesting and he does a study of why we gravitate towards being on the beach, why all the most expensive real estate is beachfront.

Joe Rogan 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 51:29 And that something about when we stare at the ocean, they did all these studies where the m- it just totally lights the brain up, that our whole, something about the horizon and about the ocean itself that, that affects our whole wellbeing.

Joe Rogan 51:42 Hmm.

Laird Hamilton 51:42 Uh, and, and part of it we don't even know why, but we're just drawn, like, why, you know, why is, why are we drawn there? Why do we... You know, uh, uh, and it, and it has, it has, uh, uh, you know, an effect on our system.

Joe Rogan 51:54 I wonder if that's because we evolved to be close to the water because that's where the bounty is, we can get fish-

Laird Hamilton 52:01 Well-

Joe Rogan 52:01 ... and-

Laird Hamilton 52:01 Well, we evolved from the water.

Joe Rogan 52:03 Is that true? That too?

Laird Hamilton 52:04 (laughs) Yeah. So we-

Joe Rogan 52:04 Do you, do you ever follow that, the, the whole aquatic ape theory? Do you ever... (clears throat)

Laird Hamilton 52:08 Yeah, no, I haven't really, uh, you know, uh, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't really studied that. I, I mean, y- you know, I, I know that, I, I know that when you're around dolphins and when you're around whales, um, how... And like e- you know, it's interesting, today I was in the ocean and, and I, and I felt something was around, and I could feel it. I just knew something was around and then it just d- five, 10 minutes later, big s- uh, sea lion kind of popped its head up and went... But I could feel before, uh... But, but, you know, when you're around those animals that are in the ocean, you definitely feel like a kindred spirit with them unlike you do with land animals. You know, you don't really have... I mean, I mean, okay, maybe a wolf or dogs because we were connected t- with them for 30,000 years. We have that relationship, you feel s- something with a dog, but, uh, but with the sea animals, like I say, when the dolphins come around and you're, you just feel some kind of... There's just some, there... You know, and they s- they've done some studies with, you know, dolphins, how they affect kids that have, you know, different, uh, uh, disabilities and stuff and how it, it, it totally helps them. And, and so it, there's some healing ability. And actually dolphins are capable of having a collective consciousness. That's why they, when they get surrounded, the big ones don't just jump out of the net, they, everybody stays together.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 53:28 So they... But, but again, you know, the aquatic ape, but the, that we're from the ocean, I mean, listen, that, we call it the super life, right? The ocean is the, uh, uh, is the reason why this, why we're, we are here and why-

Joe Rogan 53:40 Right.

Laird Hamilton 53:40 ... we can be here.

Joe Rogan 53:41 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 53:41 You know what I mean? Because if it wasn't for that, we would be, it'd be Mars and-

Joe Rogan 53:45 (laughs) Right.

Laird Hamilton 53:45 ... it'd be hard to live there. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:46 Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's something that attracts you to it. It's very strange. It's, it's very tra- well, you, when you stand there, just so you could... It's peaceful just to sit down at the beach and just stare out at the blue.

Laird Hamilton 53:57 It is.

Joe Rogan 53:58 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 53:58 Well, The Blue Mind's a great book.

Joe Rogan 54:00 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 54:00 That's a beautiful book about, talks about that and the science behind that and, and the effect it has, uh, on, on our, on our system. But, you know, it's, it, in a way, watching the ocean move is a little bit like watching a fire. You know how fire is mesmerizing, you have a fireplace and you just watch the flames move.

Joe Rogan 54:16 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 54:16 Well, the ocean has that movement, um, and, and a, and a, and a... I'll sometimes I'll go to the beach and I'll do a headstand and stand and look at the ocean upside down, which is crazy because now it's, the ocean is the s- is the sky-

Joe Rogan 54:29 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 54:30 ... and the waves are moving opposite to what your brain's used to... So it, it, it, it's, you know, it's something when I'm doing when I'm bored at the beach. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:38 Do you thi- do you think you could ever live in a city?

Laird Hamilton 54:40 Um, I've stayed in a city for a little while before. I mean, I moved to Manhattan at one point-

Joe Rogan 54:44 Did you really?

Laird Hamilton 54:45 ... and lived in... Yeah, I lived in Manhattan when I was about 17 or 18. I had some friends that used to come to Hawaii. They lived in Manhattan, and they invited me back for the summer, and I lived there for a summer. Um, and, uh, you know, it was dangerous for me to be there. That was-

Joe Rogan 54:58 How was it dangerous?

Laird Hamilton 55:00 ... 'cause you're kind of more-

Joe Rogan 55:02 Try to pull this off.

Laird Hamilton 55:02 ... wild.

Joe Rogan 55:03 Pull this off.

Laird Hamilton 55:03 You're a little more wild. You know, you're a little more like an animal, and then you're, like, you're in confinement, you know? And there's just not enough nature. Like, I'd go to Central Park and swing off trees and stuff, but that-

Joe Rogan 55:14 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 55:14 ... you know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:15 So you felt-

Laird Hamilton 55:15 That only, that only did so much for me.

Joe Rogan 55:17 How old were you at the time?

Laird Hamilton 55:18 Like, 17 or something like that.

Joe Rogan 55:20 But you felt, like, a, a real urge to be around nature?

Laird Hamilton 55:23 Always.

Joe Rogan 55:24 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 55:25 Always pulled, pulled to... I mean, I would just go to Central Park all the time, you know?

Joe Rogan 55:28 Wow, that's interesting.

Laird Hamilton 55:30 Yeah, I was just nee- I needed that. A- and, uh, you know, people don't realize when they live there, but when you l- when you're in a place with giant cement buildings, you know, that are tall, you're in fight or flight-

Joe Rogan 55:41 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 55:41 ... the whole time because the big-

Joe Rogan 55:43 Really?

Laird Hamilton 55:43 Yeah, because you're, you're threatened by these big masses that could...

Joe Rogan 55:48 Fall over and hit you.

Laird Hamilton 55:49 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 55:50 Right.

Laird Hamilton 55:50 And you intuitively, you're living in that, and then the noise and all of the, all of the people, 'cause I, you know, I, I grew up sitting in the back of the class, right? I, I go to a restaurant, I find a chair against the wall. Like, I, I go look for a chair and go, "Where, where's..." You know, I'll sit in the corner. I wanna see what's coming. I like-

Joe Rogan 56:06 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 56:06 ... seeing what's coming. So, and you go, you know, you go to New York, and there's just... You're bombarded from every single angle.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Right.

Laird Hamilton 56:13 And so you're in fight or flight. You're just, you're constantly on guard to, you know, you don't know what's gonna, you know... I'll take my chances in the ocean. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:23 (laughs) Yeah, I, I love visiting.

Laird Hamilton 56:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:25 I love visiting Manhattan.

Laird Hamilton 56:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:27 But as far as living there, man, I just don't... And my, my friend Jeff lives there, and he's like, "The energy of the city."

Laird Hamilton 56:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:33 He always talks about the energy. "It's amazing." I'm like, "Okay." Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 56:36 Well, it's retail therapy too.

Joe Rogan 56:38 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 56:38 Retail the- It's r-

Joe Rogan 56:39 Right.

Laird Hamilton 56:39 ... retail mecca. It's why every woman in the world moves there.

Joe Rogan 56:42 Yeah, they wanna shop.

Laird Hamilton 56:43 Shop.

Joe Rogan 56:44 (laughs)

Laird Hamilton 56:44 Shop. And then your friend goes, "There's a lot of energy here." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:47 (laughs) Yeah, but I think he meant, like, it's all the people. People are moving.

Laird Hamilton 56:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:50 They're doing things. It makes me wanna do things.

Laird Hamilton 56:52 Yeah, yeah. I think-

Joe Rogan 56:53 But I wanna do things anyway. I don't need that.

Laird Hamilton 56:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:56 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 56:56 Well, we weren't meant to live stacked on top of each other.

Joe Rogan 56:59 No.

Laird Hamilton 56:59 That's not in our nature.

Joe Rogan 57:00 Right.

Laird Hamilton 57:00 That's not in our biology. Now, is there an abundance of everything? Uh, yeah, there's a lot of things that make it attractive, right?

Joe Rogan 57:07 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 57:07 It's an attra- and there's an attr- I mean, there's beautiful women that make it attractive. There's all bo- all the food you ever wanted makes it attractive. You know, there's all, there's an abundance of stuff, and there's always something to do. You can go-

Joe Rogan 57:17 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 57:17 ... to the theater. You don't have to be self-motivated. You don't have to be self-driven.

Joe Rogan 57:21 Right.

Laird Hamilton 57:21 You can just... There's always three, you know, 10 parties and a bunch of things-

Joe Rogan 57:26 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 57:26 ... and speakers and sign- just anything you can think of, there's every aspect of it.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Right.

Laird Hamilton 57:31 So, I think that's, has an attractiveness about it, but i- i- i- i- in our essence, do we belong in these, these metropolises? Mm, they don't really have any in nature. They would-

Joe Rogan 57:42 Right.

Laird Hamilton 57:42 ... so we wouldn't actually... That wouldn't be a place that... You know, and we can only handle so many people at once anyway. Like, we can only have real intimate relationships with, like, 100 and, I don't know, th- 130 people or something, something crazy.

Joe Rogan 57:55 Yeah, it's like 150.

Laird Hamilton 57:56 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:58 It, it, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, what I'm fascinated by though is that these things exist everywhere, and that cities exist in almost every single country. There's a place like a Manhattan or like an LA where everybody's just jammed in together. Like, what is it about people that makes us want to live like this?

Laird Hamilton 58:14 That's an interesting thing. That's an interesting-

Joe Rogan 58:16 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 58:16 ... question. Why are we attracted to that, to that... Well, the abundance.

Joe Rogan 58:20 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 58:20 You know, that we're all... And we're, we're drawn to go where everybody wants to go, a little bit like sheep. You know?

Joe Rogan 58:26 Right, right.

Laird Hamilton 58:26 Like, we all go where everybody wants to go. Opportunity.

Joe Rogan 58:29 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 58:29 I mean, there's all these things that, you know... Why does every, why, why do, why does every city draw every young person from the countryside?

Joe Rogan 58:37 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 58:37 Right? Because of opportunity-

Joe Rogan 58:39 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 58:39 ... right? And, and, and-

Joe Rogan 58:40 Excitement, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 58:41 ... possibility, the possibilities.

Joe Rogan 58:43 My friend, Michael Malice, was on the show yesterday, and he was telling me that he was choking. He, he swallowed a piece of food, and he got it stuck in his throat. And he went to a table in Manhattan, he was in Manhattan, and he was like, "I'm choking." And he said this to this table of people, and he said this woman just stared at him with no reaction, like didn't smile or anything. And he coughed, and the food came out. He goes, "I was choking to death." And she said, "Well, you should take smaller bites." Like, just-

Laird Hamilton 59:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:09 ... the harshness-

Laird Hamilton 59:10 The harshness.

Joe Rogan 59:10 ... of New York.

Laird Hamilton 59:11 The harshness.

Joe Rogan 59:11 It's like the, the, the value of a human being is so f- so much less because there's so many of them.

Laird Hamilton 59:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 It's-

Laird Hamilton 59:20 That's a, that's a tr- that's a problem in the Earth-

Joe Rogan 59:22 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 59:22 ... right now. Our, our-

Joe Rogan 59:23 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:23 ... value for... And we become such a voyeur.

Joe Rogan 59:26 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 59:26 We become such voyeurs of, like, "Well, I'll just watch you die."

Joe Rogan 59:31 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:31 I'll just, I'll, I'll get a video of it and put it, you know, post the sh- stuff.

Joe Rogan 59:35 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:35 Like, that's, I mean-

Joe Rogan 59:36 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:36 ... in- instead of, like, "Wow, that guy s- needs help. He's hurting. Let's, uh, let me help him."

Joe Rogan 59:41 Right.

Laird Hamilton 59:41 Now, it's like, "Wow, let's just..." You know what I mean? We, you see, it's a str- it's a strange phenomenon. You'll get more help when there's less people around than you will when there's all the people around.

Joe Rogan 59:51 Yeah, yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:51 Like, they'll, they'll, there'll be thou- a thousand people and they'll all just sit there-

Joe Rogan 59:54 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 59:54 ... and stare at a guy that's bleeding to death.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 59:57 Where when there's two people there, one of the people will tourniquet the guy's leg.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Right, right, right. Like, if you met, if you saw someone in the woods fall and break their leg and was just you two, you'd feel totally connected to that person. Whereas, if you saw someone where there's 100 people around, the guy falls or gets hit by a car, you're like, "Well, that ain't my problem."

Laird Hamilton 1:00:13 That ain't my problem.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:00:14 And everybody goes, "That's not my problem." So everybody-

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Diffusion.

Laird Hamilton 1:00:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Yeah, diffusion of responsibility, yeah, happens in large groups of people. You feel like somebody's gonna handle this, and it ain't me.

Laird Hamilton 1:00:22 Some- and no one does.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Yeah, and no one does. They, yeah, there was a video that I watched recently of this guy. There was, uh, I don't know what was happening but it was outside at night, some sort of a nightclub sort of a situation. This woman hit this guy, and this guy knocked out this one woman. And then another girl came at him, he knocked her out too. And the guy's filming it, someone's filming it, and they're not doing anything about it. No one's n- no one's tackling this guy, no one's grabbing him. The guy runs away successfully, and then the LAPD put a thing out looking for this guy. I'm like, "How the fuck does the guy with the camera live with himself?"

Laird Hamilton 1:00:51 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 How did you just film-

Laird Hamilton 1:00:52 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 ... this guy punch two women?

Laird Hamilton 1:00:54 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:00:55 Exact-

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 Unless you're a woman too, and you're like, "I don't want this guy fucking me up too." I don't know who-

Laird Hamilton 1:00:58 Well, you just hit him with a brick then.

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 ... you're filming it really. If you have one.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:00 I mean, you know, whatever. I've been-

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:01 ... just saying, just, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Right, right.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:03 ... drive your car a-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:04 ... drive your car on him. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Yes.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:06 I just wanna, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 But it's, it is strange how we lose our humanity in these giant numbers.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:11 Well, and we're doing it more too-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:12 ... now, just with all of the, there's a bunch of factors that are playing in, into, into that, right? Into, into us kind of separating ourselves from the person next door. Uh, they're right there, but we're, we're over here, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:28 We're on our-

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:29 ... we're on our device looking down, and they're right next to us. And we're li- it's almost like we pre- we think that that's an invisible screen.

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Yeah. There's also the thing about Hawaii that I've always found interesting is you kinda know everybody.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 So you can't be an asshole.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:43 That's a beautiful thing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Yeah, you have-

Laird Hamilton 1:01:44 Accountability.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 ... accountability, yes.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:45 Accountabi- you're gonna see 'em at the, you're gonna see 'em at the store in five minutes.

Joe Rogan 1:01:48 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:49 So, so either you work it out and you agree that you don't like each other, and then it's just like an accepted thing, and, or-

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:54 ... you work it out and you get through it.

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:56 Yeah, I- I love that. Well, I love that about small towns too.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 1:01:59 Small towns have the same thing, but the s- small thing about an island, it's a small town with an ocean around it.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 Yeah, can't escape.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:05 So there's really nowhere to go. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 (laughs) And you live on Kauai?

Laird Hamilton 1:02:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 How many people-

Laird Hamilton 1:02:10 I grew, I grew up on Kauai.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 How many people live there?

Laird Hamilton 1:02:12 Uh, about 60 something now, 65,000 or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 That's hilarious.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 That's less than the Big Island, which is-

Laird Hamilton 1:02:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 ... pretty s- well, the Big-

Laird Hamilton 1:02:19 Yeah, yeah, but it's big though.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:20 But it's big.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 The Big Island's giant-

Laird Hamilton 1:02:21 Giant.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 ... and Hawaii's, like, 100 something, right?

Laird Hamilton 1:02:22 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:23 I mean, I lived on Maui for a while, um, as well, but I grew up on Kauai. Kauai is my, the, is my, you know, that's my, that's got my heart.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Right.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:31 It owns my heart.

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 It's so gorgeous there.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:33 Gorgeous.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 And then you've got Honolulu, which might as well be Chicago or something. I mean, it's just-

Laird Hamilton 1:02:38 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 It's like city problems.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:39 Absolutely, and it's-

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 They have real city problems.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:41 Well, and, and, and, uh, heavy military.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Mm.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:44 So they have a huge military, you know, and, and the military in- influences a city.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 Sure.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:49 Like, any, any, any city that has a military next to it, it, there's an effect that the military has on the city.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 Sure.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:55 And, and Honolulu has that. Honolulu is connected to the military 'cause you got Pearl Harbor-

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 Mm-hmm.

Laird Hamilton 1:02:59 ... and all of that stuff, so it's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 And then a million people, which is insane.

Laird Hamilton 1:03:03 Insane.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 A million people in that island.

Laird Hamilton 1:03:04 Yeah. Well, it's the gathering pla-

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 Man.

Laird Hamilton 1:03:05 Honolulu means the gathering place.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 Oh.

Laird Hamilton 1:03:07 So it's, like, where everybody goes to, you know, that's where the state capital is. That's our whole, that's our, that's Waikiki. That's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Yeah.

Laird Hamilton 1:03:14 ... you know, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Why did that one place become so populated?

Laird Hamilton 1:03:17 It's, I tell you, m- I don't know. Why, I, it's, it's, you know, I think it has to do with, if you look at most places that cities have been created, it's usually some geographical design, some shape, like